Let's Talk Penimiyus (featuring Rav Yussie Zakutinsky)

It is an impossibility for a year to experience the Vegas without a course outside of Torah and mitzvahs. That's an impossibility. >> Tell me I had an emotional experience when I went to a michal chinuch shiur, you know, okay, okay. It doesn't exactly compare to your kabbalas shabbos over there on a shalom street, you know what I'm saying? Grade B neshamos need the, for lack of a better word, the feel good, the chizuk just to allow them to stand, but avad just allow them to get to the point where now [music] they're capable of doing Torah and mitzvahs and doing the real work. Welcome to the Learning Curve Podcast brought to you by Mishpacha Magazine. We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. So let's tackle the important issues facing families today. I'm Rabbi Yisroel Garfield, menahel of Yeshiva Tiferes Shmuel in Houston, and I love talking about chinuch. I'm Rabbi Aryeh Schonfeld, menahel of Yeshiva Ketana of Manhattan, rosh mesivta of Bais Shmuel of Manhattan, director of Camp Bais, I also love talking chinuch, and of course, a little bit of fishing. >> [music] >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. This episode is brought to you by Israel Book Shop Publications. When it comes to pnimiyus, machshava, hashkafa, and mussar, Israel Book Shop's got something for everyone. Israel Book Shop has 22 volumes and counting in the series called Gems of the Nesivos Shalom, from the Hail Gaon Nesivos Shalom, but this is in English, authored by veteran mechanech Rabbi Sholom Benyamin Ginsberg. From Sefirah to Shavuos, Mesikas HaTorah to Pirkei Avos, from chinuch to emunah to kedusha and middos to marriage, and the most recent, most exciting, and user-friendly volume, Shabbos in the Parsha. Enter the world of Harav Gaon Rabbi Vigder Miller, zt"l. Did you know that Israel Book Shop is the official distributor of Rabbi Miller's own sefarim that he himself authored, not taken from tapes, but authentic, original Rabbi Miller in his own pen, such as Rejoice, Oh Youth, one of my father's favorite sefarim that had a tremendous impact on him when he was growing up as a young teenager and adult. Awake, My Glory, Praise My Soul on Tefillah, and many more. There are 12 books that were written by Rabbi Miller himself. Collect them all, and now there is even a Rabbi Miller Shmoneh Esrei Siddur in Ashkenaz and Sefard. I'm holding up the Ashkenaz one, that's my preference. Considering all that's been going on in Eretz Yisroel, check out Earning Eretz Yisroel by Harav Ben Zion Kokis, mashgiach in Bais Medrash Govoha of Lakewood. These penetrating essays offer deeper meaning and surprising answers to the pressing issues and confusing questions that each and every one of us has when trying to decipher and understand what is going on in the Holy Land, past, present, and future. And on the more practical end, there are 21 life-changing titles by Rebbetzin Sora Feldbrand devoted specifically to hashkafa, self-improvement, emunah and bitachon, and more. Chinuch Tidbits by Rebbetzin Sora Feldbrand. Get your copies today by IsraelBookShopPublications.com. Hello to all of our beloved Learning Curve fans. As you know, Rabbi Schonfeld and and myself are so committed to chinuch and thinking of ways to improve the chinuch system, etc. And one of the areas that I've been thinking about for a while is with regard to chinuch habanos, the chinuch of girls. We spend so much time and energy inspiring our daughters, giving them the skills and tools that they need to learn. We invest thousands and thousands of dollars in their chinuch over the years, both elementary school, high school, and even seminary in Eretz Yisroel. I sort of wonder what happens after that. What's our hope for, not for all of them, but for the girls who really enjoyed the learning? What opportunities do they have after they finish seminary? And I've come to appreciate that it's really hard for our daughters and the women in our community who come back from Eretz Yisroel and have lives and have jobs and get their life started, whether they're married or not, to find a level of engagement in those classes like they had in seminary or in high school. In seminaries and high school, we have so many wonderful rabbaim and and moros who spend time and prepare shiurim for them on an ongoing basis and really get into a level of learning that's very relevant and connecting. But after that point, it's so hard to find that in communities. Online, there's some stuff, but it's more one-off shiurim on tour any time, etc. So I attempted and am working on a project to bring a more serious and focused learning opportunity for women. It's called Machon Kasher LaTorah. The website is www.mykasher.org. And the idea is that I've found three exceptional, exceptional female teachers, rebbetzins in their own right, who are all very experienced and beloved mechaneches. We have Rebbetzin Feiner from the Five Towns, Rebbetzin Miriam Gedinger, and Mrs. Zeitlin. All three of these teachers are extremely experienced, extremely popular, and are preparing really meaningful classes, shiurim, for women after Pesach, between Pesach and Shavuos, a little beyond. It's eight classes, one a once a week, each one. And I'd love for you to either, if it's something that works for you, or if you could share it with others who you think might be interested. I'm really trying to create this opportunity for our daughters and for women in the community who want to continue what we've invested so much in. So check it out, www.mykasher.org. Please take a look at the offerings and the opportunity, and b'ezras Hashem, we'll be able to continue for those girls who benefit from it, the beautiful inspiration and connection that comes through meaningful learning. Thank you for your support and attention. All the best. Baruchim Habaim and welcome back to another episode of the Learning Curve as we leave the Yom Tov of Pesach and we welcome in the Yemei Sefirah as we march towards Kabbalas HaTorah and June, the end of the year. Rabbi Golf, we've got a lot to get to in this episode, so we're going to leave all of our pleasantries aside. You can say hello, and then we're going to get going. Hello. Okay, that's it. >> [laughter] >> So, and that's it. Let's start. Ready? >> Let's go, yeah. Let's go. Our last episode with the anonymous rebbe struck a chord, I think would be an understatement. I think I've gotten more feedback on that episode than any other episode we've done. And fast, also. I mean, it right away. Like like automatic. Like went viral a little bit. Right. If you want to say something like that. So, Rabbi, I'll let you begin on your thoughts of the last episode. I just think when things are on people's mind, but they haven't been articulated, and then you articulate it, there's an aha moment, and that's really what it is. Like, I think everyone in this industry feels this way to a different degree. And it's, you know, in one way it's very encouraging to have it out in the open. On the other hand, it's a painful conversation cuz it's not really, we don't have an answer. We don't have an answer. We don't have an answer. Yes, I I share that. As was mentioned during that episode, and my wife and I have made moves since then. Oh, yeah? Um, adapt the rebbe.org, adapt the rebbe.org, as we hope to make really, you know, inroads into this sugya. And, you know, as we mentioned, rabbaim are not the only people that are struggling. They are the only people that are A, institutionally struggling, and and there are children's rabbaim, which demands more of us. And, you know, I I a couple people were like said to me, and this isn't a chiddush that we maybe call this is not for us, this is maybe the chinuch system has to figure out, and that is a couple people came over to me and said, "Please don't play the episode. Please take it down." I said, "Why?" Because if my in-laws hear it, they're going to make me leave chinuch. Wow. >> young rabbaim, and I think the idea being that what what what surprised so many people that I have spoken to since that the last episode came out was, people don't go through their finances and cheshbon before they go into chinuch. The answer is no, by and large. Correct? I think the answer is no. Totally not. By 99%. >> Yeah. >> There's idealism, there's idealism, there's maybe also people are young and dumb, and the fact that the finances don't work and never work for a rebbe, the rebbe we spoke to, you know, someone also, one of the one of the criticisms I got was, "Why, you know, you spoke to that rebbe, he's the top of the food chain. He makes 180,000 He's an afternoon job that pays him well, right? He has a job in the summer, which most rabbaim can't get a job that pays that well. He has a night seder job. Like, he Most rabbaim are making 120, not 180. And it's institutionally it it demand unless you are zocheh to be, whether it's a menahel, which chances are not that a menahel makes lawyer money, but I, you know, you have a big job in a camp, it's institutional poverty, and it's what it uh unfair. Unfair if you're I consider myself um very fortunate to do the jobs that I do. It's funny you picked those three things. I'm like, "Oh, okay." Yeah, but it's I it's something that really, you know, the tzibur has to really think about. How we setting up our rabbaim that we want our rabbaim to be on call 24/7, and yet we're demanding they live a life of poverty, which, by the way, they kind of sign up to. They know they're giving up gashmiyus. An amazing story someone told me that he went into Rav Shmuel Weiss, shlita, in Eretz Yisroel's house, and it was a bunch of wealthier people and a bunch of wives apologized to them when he walked in and said, "I apologize for the way my house looks. When my When my wife and I got married, we decided to prioritize and not and you know, that is a rebbe's life. But it's also the rise of the to help our we started that conversation and hopefully we'll continue it. And that's what we're here for. We're not here to sell every issue. We're here to bring things to the forefront and help people think. Absolutely. I will ask you the first question, you'll ask me the second and then we have a guest tonight that we've been trying to get for 2 months. So, I want to tease it. So, here we go. Question number one and this goes to you because this is at you, so to speak. Dear TLC, I just finished listening to a podcast in learning curve. As a teacher in an out-of-town school, I felt there was a lot to gain from it. Ooh la la, is Houston called out of town? I don't know, I was there recently. Seems pretty in town to me. Booming, busting, make me troll it was so I was there for a my nephew had a whole here we go. There we go. I had a question in regards to something that was said and how to use that when raising my own kids. I love the line that Judaism should never be used to weaponize the kids. I'd find myself telling my kids almost three and almost six on we can't do Play-Doh, color, stickers, noise toys, etc. because it's us. I try to emphasize that we have cereal, party, etc. So many things because it's but I'm wondering how to phrase the negative without it sounding like is at fault that we can't have fun. Thank you for all you do for the club. So, there's there's the macro of is surin, right? He's his muscle was or his example was but how to frame is surin limitations that seems to have and not have it negative. I don't know why this is an out-of-town community question. I'm curious why this is out of town. also exists in town, I'm pretty sure. Listen, I I don't know that I have any grace or wisdom, but I could just respond. I'm sure many of our listeners themselves could respond to what I'm going to say, which is we always should look for what you could do on and the beauty of and what do you want the kid to do? They come to you with Play-Doh. So, what are you going to do instead? So, you say, "Let's do this. It's exciting." And you and you de-emphasize at that age at three and six, I don't think that's necessarily the age to like teach them the year aspect of and and you make a party and you make it exciting and you yourself are excited. But I would also point out maybe on their level things that they appreciate that you can't do. Like for example, we all struggle with being on our phones and technology and we say, is about taking a break." Like isn't it exciting for you that is not on his phone on That's I can't be on my phone on Isn't that exciting for you that you get to have more of me? In other words, talk about the in the way that the are not taking away. All are like that. The things that are also meant not to be mean to us. They're not meant to limit us. They're meant to free us from things that are dangerous for our So, yeah, it's about So, it's about you you say focus on the positive, you know you know I mean, make it into an extreme positive. Like it's let's play the special games or like you said cereal. I mean, you know, that makes it Yeah, I have a brother. Some people have soda on or you know, it's all that all comes so that it's true they can't play on the computer, but like there's a lot of other to it and the general vibe Right, but I would not tell my kid, "I know you can't be on the but there's good parts to too." No, I wasn't saying that. No, but more like let's not play on the computer. Let's play the game. Not but you can play the game, but like redirect them in a positive way, you know? Go to the store and say, "We're we're buying games for Everyone could pick a game they want for free, whatever." >> Right, but would you try but what happens when your kid says to you, "There's so many things that are that I can't I know Why is Why can't I eat this and eat that or have this or you don't have any Why can't I If he's asking you that, sign him up for in Manhattan cuz they're going to need a really special If What if he's 10? What if he's 10? I think you can have a conversation about the beauty of and the construct and I when sometimes when you don't have things, it's an opportunity to get together and take our break take a break from and it's a beautiful thing that keeps together and you know, I think there's a lot there's so much good that you could teach a 10 10-year-old. You don't think so? Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. All right, well good luck with that. I think you sound like the right mother that you're worried about that message and thinking about it. Mother? Whoa! Who says it's a mother? I win. Who says it's a mother? You're right, it's a teacher. language in it. Oh, cuz it says Judaism. Oh, oh, because it says Judaism, Rabbi Garfield. Would you like hold on. Since this is an entertaining question >> you know, you know. If If you didn't get that joke, that means you haven't been you're not an avid follower of All right, now I'm going to ask you the question, Rabbi. Here we go. Now, this question seems to you from a I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling it is. Dear TLC, I heard in camp in the name of a fifth or sixth grade rabbi. So, this guy heard in camp in the name of a fifth and sixth grade rabbi. So, it's the cliche narrative. Who was reveling in how the kids' vibrant personalities were I guess in fifth and sixth grade, but that once the boys get to quote unquote it's all downhill from there. I guess I'm wondering if this is a conversation worth having. Well, we're having it. There it is. You made it. So, what's the question? Can you like what's the question? The question is it true? I assume he's not asking should a rabbi say that or not. That's a different question. But we'll leave that. But I think he's asking is it true that the kids' personalities are threatened by the system? I assume that's the question. I think threatened is a big word. I think What word would you like to use? mitigated. Okay. Not as important. No, I think it would be foolish. Now again, there is a vast spectrum in what systems look like. But you want to take the mainstream right? You learned You learned in Israel. Yeah. Yes. I learned I learned in South Fallsburg. I learned in the mirror. You learned You know, and anywhere in between. I think that most people will agree that yes, when you get to a lot of the extra curriculars and all that, you know, the wow and the the goal and the interest of the to bring out the boys' personality is definitely not in the setting. Not on the agenda. So, I think that really there's two parts to this. There's the why and then there's maybe there should be a little. This is my opinion. Just totally my opinion. I've been in in also as you are and were. Currently, I'm not. I think when you're developing a kid and he's not ready yet or he needs self-esteem and he needs to He's a child. He's a little kid so he plays in the sandbox, right? And then he needs recess often throughout the day and incentives and raffles and tickets. And as you get older, you know, when you're an adult, you don't have all of the stick and all of the fun stuff. And really, the question maybe is when is it appropriate, but I don't think anyone can ask that maybe in the mirror they should have, you know, raffles, right? So, it's really is the shift too quick. But which is the breeding ground for development of and of and of intellect and of thought and of and of and all of working on yourself, it's it therefore demands a certain um seriousness, focus >> of focus, right? You know, and consistency and commitment and therefore it's supposed to be different than elementary school. Right. It's It's not supposed to be That being said, I think even in the best I think there are boys definitely maybe all boys, but boys we've discussed this different parts in this podcast that could use I'm not talking about raffles, but more self-expression, more being noticed by their I don't think you'll find 11th grade I don't think you'll find that that even know who's talented in their class in most mainstream whether their talents what what whatever their talents are. Whatever their talents are. You know, I want to share a story I heard recently from Rabbi Shapiro. He told me about an eighth grader who was really struggling in he was Shiva. He said over so I could say it over and I don't know how long ago the story was and called over this kid and he said like what's and he says, "I'm I have nothing in life. The only thing that gets me up in the morning is the Denver Nuggets." And the Nuggets that's only thing. It's the basketball Okay. No, this is not and the Denver Nuggets have a player Nikola Jokic who's like what the best player in the NBA. He's the only He's all I get up for in the morning. The rebbe I'm paraphrasing the story. The rebbe in the next couple of days or weeks bought him a Nikola Jokic jersey. Okay? And gave it to him. And the story is said over that changed the boy's whole year. Wow. And he said there was a big in Baltimore like a tremendous big time, right? I don't know well, but my father Yeah. came to not just but he's a person that's called right? And he came to the and the rebbe told him about this boy. The now the boy is like the top of the class. And he called over the boy and he said, "I want you to give me a blessing." And the boy said, "Why? I hope one day I could as much as you." An amazing story, right? What a beautiful story. My point is that Okay, it's an extreme you know, it's a story you say over at a maybe at a Yeshiva but my I do think that it would behoove the Mesifta Rebbeim in the top Yeshivas to get to know their talmidim a little better. I think it would only help. It's not the reality. I'm being unfairly stereotypical. I think it would have a lift but I think >> it come out when they're like when they're away in camp, right? Huh. It it explodes in camp. >> it's not like it's lost. It's not like it's lost. They will tell you the bachurim, some of them, during the year they feel stifled and they feel not their best self. Right. I know if I have a Rav Licht my Rav who listens to some of the podcasts or at least people tell him about the podcast. I can have him shout there. He will be he will make a macha. I know everything going on with my bachurim. I love my bachurim. I reckon it. This and this is not every Rav. My point is this letter, this whatever, this email has merit. I think there is truth to it. I'm always in the small Mary's Road which I'm connected through, you know, as we mentioned, has the perm stick. It's a big deal over there and the 11th grade it's like their thing. They pick a night. I am so always so inspired from the creativity that they have. Sometimes it over goes over the line. A little bit. Yeah, but it's so remarkably creative. Like the kids who do art and the comedy is like, you know, and even the creation where they build things and It's a tremendous operation and I'm always inspired like this talent is latent there sitting there. Such talent. But like you said, it's not the time for art classes and stuff. Maybe a little they could do but fundamentally it's time to focus on learning and you know, it'll you know, I think I hear the concern but I think it's like one of these things like, "Okay, it'll be okay." You know, the characters will be characters and the boring guys will be boring guys. We'll be boring guys. But I think the boys that are struggling in these larger aleph level Mesiftas, this is one of the big struggles. They don't feel seen. I think those boys really feel unseen, unheard, unvalidated, not noticed, not recognized. >> I have so much to offer. I just I'm just the kiyum ha'ager is not something that I'm awesome at and therefore I have so many other ma'alos. >> I'm a singer. I'm a creative. Right. I can run the kitchen on Shabbos. I think this is a huge struggle for the boy that's struggling in Yeshiva. It's a fair point. Rav, I just a little bit of housekeeping at the disclaimer fuel before the spotlight question. The guest that we brought on, Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky, Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky shlita, we actually did the interview right before Pesach. So you'll hear mentions of Pesach and the Haggadah and Shabbos Hagadol, right? Even though you're now listening to it after Pesach, but that's why the seasonal, you know, spice. We all hear that from Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky. All right, wonderful. So now we move on to our spotlight question of the week and it is before I read the email that we received, it's a tremendous zchus and a kavod for us to welcome in a Rav that we've been trying to get for a while and I already warned Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky shlita that I'm going to read Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky what I was given by your ba'alei batim as the introduction to you. So any of the and this mix shach b'peh but here we go. So Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky uh shlita is the Rav of Kehal Nachlas Yakov Yisroel, KMH, of Lawrence, New York. He is known for his unique ability to weave together Nigleh, Kabbalah, and Chassidus into one unified living Torah. Drawing from the teachings of the Baal Shem and his talmidim, he brings the deepest truths of pnimiyus ha'Torah to life, making them both relatable and practical for daily avodah. Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky learned in Shaar HaTorah and my alma mater. We learned at the same time, a little bit younger than me. We received smicha, which is not typical, from Rav Yisroel Kalman Epstein shlita, which is not typical. Rav Yisroel is the author of the sefer Yam HaTefillah as well there as well as the sefer Mayim Mayim and recently he has published a set of four sefarim covering the shiurim and drashos from tafshin pei dalet on every parsha and Yom Tov. A very popular sefer that is available in sefarim stores and at website Mevakshei Yichudcha. dot com. It's a kavod to welcome Rav Yisroel Zakatinsky. Aleichem shalom. It's good to see you. Nice to have you. So I'm going to read you an email that we received. It's a hot topic, so we'll see where it goes. >> Maybe before you do that, there's one thing about your bio that I wanted to know before we get into it, okay? How did the shul start? Was that you said, "I want to start a shul and this is a vision I have"? Or did people start it and then you came? Just like I'm not clear about that. No, it's not It's a good question. It sort of happened organically. It happened organically. I was, you know, born and raised in in Queens, in Kew Garden Hills. And so um after I got married, for the next, let's say, I don't know, five or six years or so, so I was sort of leading a a little shul in Queens. Really part of a larger organization of Hashivenu that my father, my parents started and they continue. >> Was it Bais Yisroel shul? Was it that shul? It was before It was before that. It was still like basement >> was like a kiruv thing, I assume, by the Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Hashivenu Hashivenu is is a kiruv organization my parents began. You know, I grew up with it. You know, it was part of >> Was your father or your uncle my English principal in the '90s? That was my father. Wow. Okay. We're not going to go there. That's for a different episode. >> we should leave that for a different discussion. We've a past. Sorry about that. But yeah. So yeah, so Hashivenu is a kiruv organization, you know, it it's sort of following up with the many of the ba'alei teshuvah that come from Eretz Yisroel, whether it be, you know, men or women from all the different Yeshivas. So when they come to America, Hashivenu sort of follows up with them. So over the years, it became a need of sort of them having, you know, while the intention is for them to become part of, you know, sort of acclimated to the general community, to sort of have their own minyan. So it sort of began like that and I started running it and, you know, it quickly moved just beyond, you know, ba'alei teshuvah that we were familiar with and it became like a community shul. So I was doing that for five or six years and then, you know, we needed to, you know, we needed to move on a little bit and I was always giving shiurim in different communities, different locations, different people and, you know, it's a thing with my wife. I always tell her, we remind each other that whenever I went to Lawrence to give shiurim, I would just give shiurim different places, different chaburos. Whenever I came back, I'd always say like, "I like those guys. I like those guys. There's something about those guys. It's a shidduch, you know?" And so it really it was just like, you know, perfect timing, you know, we were looking for something and a lot of the guys were looking for something to start as well. And we just said, "Let's do something together." I just needed the context of the shul. Go ahead. Thank you, Rav Yisroel. Dear TLC, the post-war Torah world has focused mainly on Talmud Torah as the primary means of avodas Hashem and across the spectrum of frumkeit, this has been the accepted center where we focus all of our energy. But lately it feels like things have shifted. There's been a bigger focus placed on the need for emotional connection to mitzvos and validation of people even within their struggles. While this has no doubt helped many Yidden grow to feel closer to Hashem, I worry that people are begin are becoming too obsessed with their emotions, with performative virtue instead of focusing on personal action and growth. From a chinuch perspective, as parents, we're worried about losing the ikkar and how that will impact our children. So there's a premise which believed to be true that obviously our Byron and and post, you know, post-war Jewry America Jewry was all around limud ha'Torah. Pre-war Jewry also. Yeah, yes. Is has there been a shift? Is there something to be concerned about? Something to celebrate? The floor is yours. There's always a shift in generations. That's always true. I mean, every generation has a different personality, a different avodah, different tikkunim that they need to accomplish. So the question is never whether there's a shift. There's always a shift. The question is what is the shift and how to sort of navigate it properly. You know, I teach a lot of Chassidus and inyanim like that and people might think that I'm in the chizuk business. I'm not. I don't see myself as in the chizuk business. I don't see myself as like that. So what business do I find myself in? What what business do I think I think I think I'm in the teaching Torah business. That's what I that's what I'm in. I think people very often mistranslate, let's say, terms like dveikus to like an emotional experience. The emotions is one strata. It's one dimension of who we are. Every aspect of the human being needs to be brought into the experience of dveikus, into attachment to Hashem. Intellectual, emotional, and physical. Intellectual dveikus comes with learning. Emotional the to sort of conquer the territory of the person that's called emotions, so that's with hislavus, ahavah, and yirah. To to conquer the physical territory of the person with dveikus, that's through mitzvos ma'asiyos. So all of the strata, all the different elements of who the human being is, both in terms, again, intellectual, emotional, and experiential, all of those dimensions need to be overwhelmed with the light of Hashem. So it's not a matter of chash v'shalom sacrificing one, you know, one aspect for another and it's not a matter of defining connection to Hashem as an emotional experience versus intellectual one. These are all different aspects of who the person is and every single one of these layers needs to be sort of brought into the experience of dveikus. Dveikus is something that one cannot really put a finger on and say, "This is what it is." It's the experience of the person becoming attached to the Eyn Sof, to the infinite one. When we say a person, a person's multi-layered. There's the intellect, there's the emotions, and there's the practical, the mechanical side of who the person is. All these elements need to be brought in. In your answer, you seem to be being mash the equalizing these different components as like equally important. And that's where perhaps the hidush lies because I'm not as familiar with Shaar Ha Tosefta as you are, but I'm familiar with the yeshivas I went to and the kinna I have. And still in Shaar I assume in Shaar Ha Tosefta and the places I went, there is not an equation between the other elements of one's avodah and their lomdus gemara, that's like an exclusive place. And it's not just because now is the time to focus on it. It's because the shmuzen our comic Torah is the ikker and outskirt, you know, I don't I can't give the shmuzen well as Rabbi Shonfeld. You could probably do a better job beyond the chizuk business, but in Talmud Torah, you know, and so I wonder, do you recognize the hidush in what you're saying klappeh at least the standard yeshiva world? So I'll tell you like this. I I don't mean necessarily to equate all the different strata of a person. Again, let's see the three dimensions I mentioned, intellectual, emotional, and mechanical. I guess we can call like that. I'm not saying that they're all equal in significance. What I'm saying is that in order for a person to be completely sort of swallowed up in the experience of dveykus, all three need to be sort of engaged. And our yeshiva system doesn't historically I maybe disagree with this, I don't know. I would the yeshiva system I experienced was multi-dime was mono-dimensional, excuse me, singular dimensional. Right. So here's the thing. Even when a person is learning, all those three dimensions are engaged. So for example, you know, when a let's see again learning for example, so obviously when a person is learning, the intellect of a person is certainly experiencing dveykus through the if through the information. True. The mechanical side of a person is also experiencing dveykus through akimas v'sayim or even if a person many places can say if a person is will understand the sugia in learning better without moving their lips, they don't have to do that. Our Rabbi Yeruchem Spitz, I think used to ask his chavusa on the tzadd that you need akimas v'sayim and he's reading the gemara to be moitzim. Yeah. In Talmud Torah. Yeah. >> So a person should be conscious of that. So that's when you're mekayem when you're learning, you're mekayem mitzvas Talmud Torah, one of the 613. And we know from the Rishonim already and Geonim it goes back that the taryag mitzvos are connected to the 613 evarim of a person. Which means and we have a kabbalah regarding many mitzvos which aver it's connected. Brocha b'panim, if you're mekayem one of the taryag, that means that there's a certain aver in you that's being engaged. Reb, but are you Maybe the emotional one >> the two out of the three. That's the hardest one. Right. No, so so the and the emotional >> screaming at your chavusa with a lot of passion. Right. No, so for sure, yeah. >> And the emotional strata of the person certainly also has to be engaged with in Talmud Torah for the shleimus of the mitzvah which is through the on all levels. So there's the gishmak aspect of it which we all know from Igros Moshe Feinstein and Minchas Chinuch and all the shmuzen Talmud Torah. And then there's higher madregas of and that's all invested within the mitzvas Talmud Torah. So what I'm saying is here I'll give you the it isn't I said this once at a shmuz and people were shocked that I said it, but I'll say it again. It's it's a davar pashut. It is an impossibility for a year to experience dveykus with our course outside of taryag mitzvos. That's an impossibility. Now when we say taryag mitzvos, you know, there's a way of expanding the dimension of what a mitzvah means, but there's that's an impossibility. The framework that the Ribono Shel Olam created for us to experience attachment to Elokus is only through taryag mitzvos. But in order for every mitzvah to be complete, it has to engage in all those levels. It's like the gemara says in Sukkah that every mitzvah that we were mekabel lishmah l'ilmay d'olam hazeh lishmah v'laasos, there's all different strata within every mitzvah that engages all the different strata of who we are. Reb Aryeh, I'm sorry, I just have to I just have to say one more thing. Am I hearing you say there is no change and that is what I experienced in my yeshiva was a mevakesh Hashem kinna. I just didn't realize. Is that what you're saying? Because I can't believe you're saying that. >> a hard sell, you know what I mean? To tell me I had an emotional experience when I went to a Minchas Chinuch, you know, okay, okay. It doesn't exactly compare to your kabbalas Shabbos over there on Mevakesh Hashem street, you know what I'm saying? I'll tell you like this. Listen, you know, I I personally don't think I say too many hidushim. I think I don't know, to me it's pretty pretty obvious the things that I say. But in yeshivas when we were you know, sort of trained and mechunach to focus our attention in learning 100% but what does learning mean? The shleimus of Torah is an experience that engages all aspects of who we are. So if you have a kid who is like, you know, excited about Minchas Chinuch and whatever this you know, whatever he's learning, givaldik. I would just I would tell his rebbe that an eitzah tovah is to articulate this to the kids. To say, by the way, when you're learning, realize that what you're doing right now is an exercise in attaching yourself to the Borei Olam. And what you're trying to do along with every mitzvah is attach all of yourself to the Borei Olam, which includes your mind, which includes your heart, and includes your actions. Now, how do you know that you are takka becoming attached to the Borei Olam and you're not just faking yourself? Right. So I'll tell you something. What's brought down in the sefarim, I've you I said this No, true. I've said this many I said this in shul many times without like a mar'eh makom. The the Baruch Hashem I found the Kamma writes this. And this is the nekudah and it's a hard it's a sharp idea, but this is the metzius. Again, attachment to Elokus is something that you can't it's not a physical zach. Again, we have exercises to do it. But again, Talmud Torah, every mitzvah to engage the intellect, to engage the emotions, to engage the mechanical side of who we are. That's those are the exercises that we do through taryag mitzvos to become attached to the Borei Olam. So the actual experience itself is something that it's hard to articulate and hard to pinpoint. But what we do have are markers. You can sort of like when you put a rock in a pond, you can sort of even if you didn't see the rock go in, you can grab that it will happen because of the ripple effect. There are two markers. If a person is experiencing these two markers in their Yiddishkeit, thumbs up, you're doing well. If not, Uh-oh. I'm so nervous. I'm so Which is if a person's Yiddishkeit is producing more ahavas Yisrael and more humility. That's a siman Wow. that you're touching Elokus. Wow. That's beautiful. Can you unpack that a little? Why those I sort of understand ahavas Yisrael, the humility less so, but what's what's the shott? When when a person is is engaging in taryag mitzvos properly and they're becoming more attached to Elokus, then what happens is mhm the reality that the neshama naturally experiences becomes a little bit more on the surface of one's consciousness. And so the reality that the neshama experiences is a reality of ein od milvado, a reality of everything is created constantly mechadesh b'chol yom tamid maaseh bereishis. And so and the neshama experiences itself as just part of Knesses Yisrael. And all of Knesses Yisrael is just like a ray of light k'viyachol coming from the sun which is k'viyachol Hashem so to speak like as a moshel. So automatically the nature of the neshama's own experience is one of ahavas Yisrael and of complete bittul humility. I was thinking, do you get Cool. nervous? Are you nervous at all that you know, I know a little bit about you. I was in yeshiva with you. I watched you sit against the pillar. That you know, again, I'm not here to talk about you and Minchas Chinuch b'fanav, but here we go. Mhm. So you finished Shas and you're you know, the Litvish way. And I know you went to Reb Gamaliel and Reb Aryeh and he told you you can't learn, you know, really nistar until you got married. And Baruch Hashem you got married. And I said He told me He told me I can't learn I was in high school I was learning a lot of chassidus along with this dar and you know, Right. the and I went to Reb Gamaliel he told me that I have focus you know, cold turkey until halacha and hakawa. All right, good. So so you therefore are steeped in in in nigleh in gemara shas in shulchan aruch in bavli yet your your you know, kehillah and your talmidim are their introduction or at least correct me if I'm wrong, avodas Hashem but your main thrust is that not incongruous with your the way you got to where your derech aliya? So I'll tell you the truth. I'll tell you the truth, it's going to sound a little bit strange. It'll be sound a little bit funny, but I'm telling you anyone that knows me personally, you know, I'm a mamish an open book. For good or bad, I you know, I it's very hard to make me uncomfortable. Let's put it that way. You know what I'm saying? So I'm going to try. I have a graphic straight I so I'll be honest with you. Um in the beginning, you know, I'm not the same person I was last year, two years ago. I think a person should always be growing and moving forward. So years ago if you asked me like what shear I'm you give, I would have said I give Gemara shear I'm I give shear my Halacha and I would tell you that yeah there's some people that for whatever reason because of that are their fault not their fault in order to engage them I have to give them shear I'm in Chassidus and only then will they become a little bit more softened and opened and then they could also learn Gemara. Not to say that that Chassidus is only there as a gateway. Right. But as I'm At this point I'll be honest with you and then you ask anyone in the shul they'll they'll tell you the same thing. At this point I like I don't really see much of a difference anymore between Gemara, Halacha, Chassidus. It's not any given shear that that we have in shul will be and again I'm not talking about like praising myself. That's not the point. I'm just trying to give over an idea. Like the Maran Hakarmis will go you know it'll be you know Gemara, Rambam, Rashi something from the Arizal, the Baal Shem Tov, Rav Nachman you know Rashash, Rav Shagarov, Victor Rav Nachman. I So so someone what you know someone A lot of guys in shul talk like they have a joke of like like how does like a newcomer relate this? You know you if you haven't been there over the years like how do So and it's not coming from like a disjointed all over the place type of thing. I don't think so. It's you know I think just over time I think a person you know develops a sense of understanding that how Torah is truly unified truly unified and just like a person has a body and a guf a neshama and a guf and the neshama can't express itself unless it has a guf and the guf is dead unless it has a neshama. So that's how Torah is as well. >> So it's different than what you were told what your rebbeim the ladder that your rebbeim wanted you to take. I don't know you have to ask them but it's again I don't really think so. I don't really think so because Can I give you a an example? Sure. You want an example? I'll try. I don't know if this is supposed to be like a light podcast. It's supposed to It's a light. This is light. But we haven't brought up thank you Hashem yet. It's coming. Don't worry. >> [laughter] >> So it's like this you know every sugia that a person learns So it's like you know whatever it is whatever the sugia might be right? So so it's like when you read it so it's telling you information you know Reuven and Shimon have a tiny with each other. This bias is like this the Rebbe says like that whatever you know. But the truth is every sugia that's the covering. That's the covering. It's like a computer right? If I send an email we were talking about before like my technology level. It's not the 1994 so I think there were maybe a little bit emails then like that's it. So if you write an email to someone and you write hello Rebbe are you type in those words. So that's what you see on the screen and that's what your friend sees as well. That's not really what's going on in the kishkes of the computer right? What's going on is code 0110 whatever right? It's just that I don't know how to read codes and I couldn't So it has to be sort of packaged in a way that I could understand and I could engage with it. So the derech mashal obviously we'll have the love dollars that's how Torah is as well. Every sugia in Torah every sugia in Shas is behind the scenes an infrastructure through which Elokus is able to come into my neshama and into and into the world the chola. Now in the Kisei Re'i the Arizal explained what the codes are for any given infrastructure to allow their bonishlam into the world. Which means that once you understand again to each one their own madrega the infrastructure that the Arizal revealed for example which is then explained in Chassidus on a level of the nefesh the Gra in his way all different ways. But once you get that basic code then you should find that in every sugia. Now this is not what we learned in Shaar HaTorah. I'm just letting you know. When we learned in Shaar HaTorah it was You learned about Rebbe. But I'm also learning this way. But about Rebbe and Rebbe it wasn't just that. What you see is just the shitchiyus. No. The machlokes about kinyan whether you own something yesh. That needs dveykus. Not that it's just the shell. Like you think of Shimon Shkop to bring a example of was really thinking about all this or Rav Chaim? I'm saying I got an email once. They weren't secretly chasbining the code were they? I don't think so. Do we think that Rav Chaim? You were Listen I never met Rav Shimon. You know what I mean? I met Rav Shimon in yeshiva. What do you mean? You were learning grob in Shaar HaTorah you didn't meet Rav Shimon. Yeah yeah exactly. I was learning after that. It was a lovable. I got an email once someone said Rav Moshe Feinstein isn't it true isn't it true that if Rav Moshe Feinstein learned Kabbalah he would have become even greater? Oh wow. I was like what do you derive from that you know? Rav Moshe Feinstein It's not even a matter of like we don't know what they were doing at 3:00 in the morning. It's also true. But they were experiencing Even the code is really just a garment for something deeper. What's that inyan that's the deepest? You can't articulate it but you know it when you become more humble and you become a bigger Av Yisrael. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. Thank you. I want to ask the elephant in the room and that is >> Excuse me I wanted to say before that. >> Yeah. Like I said in the beginning I'm not in the chizuk I'm not in the chizuk business. I couldn't care less if it's beautiful or not. That's the mitzvah. It's not a beautiful No yeah no I appreciate it. I'm just saying that's the beauty of the whole system how multi-dimensional it is but it's all echad in that way. It's a beautiful visual to see the different pieces and how they fit. It's just a very nice perspective. Sorry go ahead Ari. So so as Rav Zidinski I know that you don't work for thank you Hashem. I know that most of them are your baal the baal batim in your shul. Why do you think there has been such a visceral almost cos like boomerang reaction to you know what seems to be on a without the codes but on a shitchistic level a way of promoting positive relationship with other Jews? How does it work with Rebbe and Rebbe they're looking to find Rebbe in everything and some silly music right? And maybe some music that is even worse than silly but basically the music is just benign. Other than may we let's leave the Zusha song out of it which got a little bit of of of a Believe it that's that's just a cute little shtick. It's a bunch of guys that were trying to promote maybe shitchistic but promoting what seemed to be a positive messaging and there has been a I'm talking anger like a revolt. Why has there been such reaction against some of you enough of you about that against that concept? And I want to share before I just give you a minute to think about it a maiseh that happened and that is my son went to Lawrence for Shabbos a few months ago. And he might say that you were He might say that I was I was teasing. I was teasing. It was on your maiseh. He said to me Abba I know you you you know how do we get Rav Zidinski to give us an ayin ek? And I said Azi Rav Zidinski isn't he doesn't give ayin eks he's a rav. You want to experience his ayin ek go to his davening Friday night. He goes to call to KMH Friday night he calls me Motzei Shabbos. My son is in 11th grade in Shaar HaTorah. He's a Litvish bachur. And he said I shared this with Rav Zidinski a few months ago. And he says Abba I'm very confused. It was the most incredible davening of my life. All of that? He like he didn't know what to do with that. You know a long you repent the He's like doing it is that it was like mind warp. So and that seems to be the positive you know I I actually davened there once cuz I said if if you're going to speak lashon hara about a place at least daven there and it was the most unbelievable davening in my life. So why is there a visceral reaction to this you know this email is obviously really part of that of this just what seems to be a bunch of guys trying to create positive vibes in Klal Yisrael. Yeah when I was joking before that my technology you know I graduated 1994 and that was it. It it remains this day. I don't have WhatsApp like I'm mamish old school. So I'll be honest with you I don't really know much about like reactions and things like this. I mean obviously I hear a little bit you know. But I don't think I'm as knowledgeable in you know in the inyan as as You don't feel an achrayus to understand or defend your baal batim? Well I you know I do the best I can but I also have to keep my own sanity. And I'll be honest with you there's too many Rebbes and Rambams to work through. I don't know if I have the time to sift through every comment on you know whatever the platform is. But listen where am I coming from? I I come from Whenever I hear for me personally I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for other people and I'm not in the business of trying to put words in other people's mouths or if you know if I'm driving and someone says something nasty to me. Not say they do whatever it is. Then I try to be mechazek myself like what the Baal Shem Tov said which is that everything that you hear is a message from their bonishlam to you. Somehow to be mechazek your own self in your avodah to move forward. So to me to me the question of like why do people say what they say I it's a foreign language to me. Question is does that represent the taina? Right? >> Question is what's their bonishlam telling me if I hear something? And what could I do to become a better eved Hashem in my own personal life? Like that that to me that's that's the only question that resonates at all. I I I don't I've made a decision some time ago that to me I'm only going to say and think positive things about you and and and if and if you didn't say something that that to me seems you know something the opposite of that that's just it's a message to me to work on myself more. So when you hear that message of thank you Hashem is taking people away from Torah and mitzvahs and it's taking away the seriousness of avodas Hashem of Torah and mitzvahs. It's turning klal Yisrael into this clown show and turning I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm just parroting. >> meaning of the Tanya Rebbe Barry? The Tanya is and this is like I'm not a bucky and and and Rav Nachman and all this stuff, but to the extent that I've learned it I actually my son has been on Purim a a close haver of yours who lives in Houston gave him Likutei Halachos so we've been learning it since Purim. So I read the first five sifim and basically the message there is it's a beautiful synthesis very much related to what you were saying about different aspects of Torah unifying. But the message is that the nekudah tovah that you wake up in the morning you have to think about your good and the idea of dawn being a focus on the good in a person in klal Yisrael the mishkan the whole deal. And this idea I think the criticism comes that this message that you're good even when you're not good. Like it lowers the standard so much. Like I don't know them lyrics either, you know, so well. Maybe Ari you could share some lyrics, but the fundamental idea of thank you Hashem the ruach of it is that you're good I don't care what happened yesterday and there's truth to that, but when you're trying to be mechanech a generation that have she'eifos for god less and you keep telling them they're good it's a steer to what we grew up where we're always being pushed to excellence. I I think that's the deeper nekudah. Well said. >> holiness, you know. Yeah. So I'm debating whether like how deep to go. Again, we're trying to keep a light podcast but I don't know if I want to go deep into the sugya. Like I'm not sure. Well, we want people to understand it because I think this question is really the crux of the opposition. So maybe I can explain it very well. Yes. >> I can share something that'll confuse some people but I can give them arm achainus so maybe they can >> Okay. Well, it's the beginning of a conversation. They could come by the shul to get more >> Right. So like I said everything that you'll find in in in in chassidus and so on is rooted in kisvei Ari. It's rooted in in the codes in the code of what reality really is. In the kisvei Ari we do find the following idea. I'll say it like this. Again, whether it's you need a lot of hakdamas to appreciate this but it is what it is. There is also you know, I'm sure you've heard of the term of like through through davening and through avodas Hashem there's this inyan of like redeeming sparks, right? I'm sure you know nitzutzei kedusha, right? There's something you know, people okay. So there's like keying wherever you go there's like sparks all over the place and you have to redeem them you have to uplift them. So there's such a there's such a thing. So I'll share with you something in the way the Ari puts it and then I'll show you how chassidus translates it and maybe it'll give a little bit of a better context to this sugya that we're talking about. It's okay? Yeah, please. So the Ari says as follows. When you're dealing with redeeming these sparks which is again the basic objective that you're doing let's say by davening. The Ari says that you're you know, sort of every part of davening there four parts of davening. You have brachas you know, korbanos pesukei dezimra shema u'virchas shema and shmoneh esrei. Okay? Again, these are the words. The Ari says that corresponds to the four there are four universes four dimensions of reality. Asiyah bottom is us asiyah yetzirah briyah and atzilus. This is the dimension of the Ribono shel Olam that's that's the goal. That's the end zone. Says the Ari again, these are the words. I'll bring it down soon in a moment. You take you find these nitzutzei kedusha these chaotic sparks that are stuck in the mud and through davening as you ascend through davening you ascend along with these sparks and then when you get to your final destination which is shmoneh esrei then these sparks are put together to become a full construct and the Ribono shel Olam's presence can be funneled within the the light of Hashem can shine through them. Okay. The Ari says as follows. He says that there's really two categories of these sparks. And again, this sounds like I'm veering off but you'll see in a moment. You give me a one minute and you'll be okay. The Ari says there's two categories of sparks. There are sparks let's say grade A and grade B. Okay? Grade A sparks that's the malach. They're chaotic they're disjointed they're all over the place they're just little sparks and they're only put together till they get to the finish line. That's the malach. But then the Ari says that there's another category of sparks which again we'll call them grade B whatever you want to that they need a lot more tikkun. A lot more tikkun. And the Ari says but they also have to go through this process of being of going from one level to the next only finding completion and tikkun by their final destination. But since they're very much stuck in the klipah in in the mud so you have to start the process in the following way. First you have to arrange the nitzutzei kedusha even before they get started you have to arrange them in an infrastructure similar to the infrastructure that they're going to reach in their final destination. You have to arrange them now to at least begin the process of moving forward. In the kisvei Ari this is the kavana that you have in the beginning of davening when you say you don't have to say sfar sfar dem that right after hoidu right? So there's Hashem malach Hashem malach Hashem yimloch what you say that twice why Hashem malach l'olam va'ed they're both psukim like they're random psukim. They're nice psukim but like in the kisvei Ari every single word of davening is code. Every single word of davening is that you're being poel something. You're not just going through the siddur you're going through universes. You're being poel something. I'll give you an example it's how thick is our haggadah. Not thick at all. Not thick at all. >> haggadah is quite small. >> Exactly. I happen to have this in front of me right now. Whatever you want to a thick safer. Pretty big. This is the haggadah of the kavanas with the Rashash and Ari. So it's a haggadah. So I'm just again, I'm not they happen to be on my table. >> I'm not coming to your house. It's a long night. >> I'm not a people's monster. Wow. >> It's nitzutzei kedusha. These are code. This is what's being activated when you say a word of davening. When you say a word of haggadah. So what So the Ari says this process of engaging grade B nitzutzei kedusha this and putting them together in a way that mimics a little bit of what the destination is only to get them moving forward is what you're saying when you say Hashem malach Hashem malach Hashem yimloch l'olam va'ed. And how it works with gematrias and nitzutzei kedusha ayin sham in there if you're brave enough. Okay. So when you read that and you learn that in Shaar HaKavanas and the sifrim so it's like some floaty ideas spar I have no idea what you Zacktinsky I don't know what you're talking about. I can't I'm still I start listening to this podcast I'm in my pajamas at night I'm trying to wind down from a long day and you're talking about nitzutzei kedusha and making things complicated. Chassidus comes and and and takes the kisvei Ari just like the Vilna Gaon did as well and explains it as an experience of the nefesh and explains it also in experience of history. In in the kisvei Ari the nitzutzei kedusha there's another term that the Ari uses for nitzutzei kedusha which are neshamos. So there are neshamos every neshamah starts off chaotic and I'm not talking about people off the derech. You understand? We're talking about people that know shas and poskim also can be my I'm number I'm not the only shas and poskim I'm just saying I'll be the first one to admit I'm a spark I'm a lost spark disjointed all over the place and I have to move from asiyah to yetzirah to briyah to atzilus and in atzilus I'll be put together. But there is such a category of grade B neshamos which in the writings of the Vilna Gaon is identified with the neshamos of ikvesa d'meshicha that also need to go through this process. But the Ari was megaleh in the kavanas of Hashem malach Hashem malach Hashem yimloch that in order for them to even begin their journey they have to I see themselves as put together enough that at least it could resemble the finished product. And only then can they begin to move forward. Here's where it becomes more complicated. You could have one generation with multiple generations within it. In other words we're living taf shin peh vov so we assume that everyone living in taf shin peh vov is from taf shin peh vov. Lav davka. Lav davka. Neshamos don't work in that in in that way. You could have people neighbors you could have people in the same family that one is from a previous generation and one's from a future generation. There's a famous story with Rav Nachman Breslover. His big opposition was he had a few but his one of his big oppositions was the Shpoler Zeideh one of the great tzaddikim. We have no asogah of these people but the maiseh goes the legend has it that one of the chassidim of Rav Nachman was by the Shpoler Zeideh and the Shpoler Zeideh told him he said go you're going to go back to your rebbe go tell your rebbe that I it's not that I don't think he's a tzaddik but he's 200 years too early. Huh. So Rav Nachman sent a message back they call you the Shpoler Zeideh because you're 200 years too late. Gevaldig. It's not a machlokes there's no machlokes it's a matter of timing. It's a matter of timing. So if I can make it try to even make it lighter. Wait bring it home. What what's the answer to the question? Is are you saying that the this movement or this concept is I'm going to use your your nusach that the grade B neshamos need the for lack of a better word the feel good the chizuk just to allow them to stand but avad just allow them to get to the the where now they're capable of doing Torah mitzvahs and doing the real work. Well, it's a I mean, listen, everyone has these aspects to them. So, it's not like it's not like a person can't, you know, can't get started without first listening to a song. It's not like, you know, you need that to wake up in the morning. But, my point is that the way of Chassidus, which is which is very much oriented towards his Chassidus is speaking to these I got I said grade A grade B, maybe it's the wrong term, whatever it is, but speaking to this category of Nitzutzei Kedusha. Now, the truth is all the swarm say, you know, it's like when you have these Nitzutzei Kedusha that eventually get to their the end zone, when they get to the mark. There's no greater There's no greater Kiddush Hashem Shamayim. There's no greater There's no greater There's no greater There's no greater >> anytime a kid is does anything, Rebbe, I'm just using him as a mashal cuz we're talking this Nitzutzei Kedusha grade B. Rebbe, I'm a grade B guy. I need I'm not like Basically, isn't this taking away the any chance we have at creating a certain tzurah of what it of a derech, a standard? If everyone has their klippah and their Nitzutzei Kedusha that need, you >> goal is not to feel that just like Hashem loves you, but the goal is to feel that you're part of a system that the Ribbono shel Olam respects you. You know, like you love your pet hamster. You know what I'm saying? But, you you know, a Yid shouldn't feel like he's Hashem's pet hamster. Right. You know what I'm saying? You love your wife, right? And you respect your wife, and you need your wife, and your wife helps you, and there's like that's where the sense of it Like anyone that, you know, like it is is I you know, davening in in our shul is hard. It's hard for many reasons. One reason is because I I'm very demanding. I'm extremely demanding. You know what I mean? If there's You know, people know I don't like shushing, but I'll just I'll literally just stop davening and give like a shmooze. You know what I mean? And if I not even if I just feel that the energy is not where it's supposed to be, I'll also stop it. >> And I know And the energy level that is expected in that shul is not typical. I mean, I'm down to walk What about Tuesday morning? >> to walk, yeah. It's exhausting. I down to once in shacharis I walk into the shul and with my 21-year-old son and I didn't have a tallis and I asked the gabbai for a tallis. He asked me if I was a Yekke. And I said to him, "You think I'm a bochur, don't you?" That was my introduction. And the Simcha l'Am Yeah. It took like 10 minutes of the of the chazzan. Yeah. Following, but it's Pesach on Shabbos, obviously, right? Where is this coming from? It's coming from I ex- I expect the people in the shul sort of to identify themselves as neshamos, and you're needed, and the Ribbono shel Olam needs your tefillos right now, and Klal Yisrael needs your tefillos right now. Like, what are you doing? So, yeah, it's rooted in his Chassidus. It's rooted in believing that any word of tefillah that they're able to get out of their mouth it is a representation. Is a is a davar shalem. It's a complete zach. It's an unbelievable nachas ruach. But, adraba adraba, if you're capable of that, then how much more so can you do if you push yourself weiter? So, it it doesn't stop with just that you're amazing. It's like you're amazing, and you have any idea how much you could accomplish with your amazingness. The Ribbono shel Olam needs that. How does this express itself in the seventh grade? Let's just bring you to Cuz this is a kind of podcast, and me and Reb Aryeh we're we're menahelim, and we want to bring this to that pro- And it really is the guy even to parents of a seventh grader. I'm taking seventh grade because that's when a child pretty much is going to go to yeshiva or not be so You know, it's an important year for that. You could sort of coast until then, and then you got to learn. You got to step up. So, a child's struggling. He says, "I don't like Gemara." You know, but Now, the traditional approach would be, "Listen, you got to go to yeshiva. You got to be matzliach in Gemara. You know, you want it or not, I don't know, but this is it, you know, what we got to do." And let's you know, say that nicely. Parents, do not follow that advice. Specifically, that's not to be copied, but that concept. But, if this is takka a neshama that requires a different approach, like what are you supposed to do with that? What are menahelim supposed to do with that? How do you not hurt the child, but at the same time, you don't know who to push and how. It's like It almost leaves you lost. So, I'm not known for my practicality. Now you tell us, an hour in. >> [laughter] >> All right. So, but I will I will tell I will tell you like this. >> Are you blessed to be a father? Huh? You're blessed to be a father. I hope. Thank God. So, you have to be. You don't have a choice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I I once I once there was a big tzaddik that I once went to, and I'm obviously I'm not into this, like, you know, giving chizuk and, you know, looking for things like that. But, I was once by a big tzaddik, Chaim Sanzer, and I gave my name, and he looked at it, and he's like, "Ooh, you are very not practical." >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Like, that you have a chashuve wife to be able to put up with you. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So, that's it. That With that being said, with that being said, the one thing I would say is that it Like like we're Jewish people are not human beings with different sets of obligations. We have to understand we we Mamesh neshamos, pieces of the Shechinah Kedusha sent into the world enclosed in bodies. Like once we think like that, therefore we have to understand that communication between one Yid and another is much more complicated and much deeper than it is, let's say, between one guy and another. If one guy wants to communicate with another, they have to talk. They have to say something. And the other person only hears what's being said. Neshamos are not like that. If I see a kid, and I'll tell you the truth, I've seen this in shul work with adults. It might not happen overnight. If you look at a Yid and you think to yourself and you say, "Listen, mamesh like whatever like we're one. My I'm I want I want to connect my neshama to you. I'm I want to find the the things that you're struggling with, I want to find it in my life, in my bechinah. In the bechinah that I'm that in my life. And I want and I'm trying to create that hiskashrus with that neshama, and then I'm mechazek myself, and I try to pull myself up from that inyan that this kid is struggling with as it translates in my life. You'd be surprised how much how effective that is. Now, again, is it overnight? No. Do you still have to say something? Of course you have to say something. But, while the bodies talk, the neshamos are doing the heavy lifting. This is really this is the way tzaddikim fix neshamos. This is the way the nevi'im operated. This is the People ask me like, you know, what do you need Chassidus and Pnimiyus haTorah for? Just to get kids that are mechallel Shabbos to get them back on track. I'm like, "No. Unless we're all nevi'im, it means we're not there yet." Right. So, like we're operating Like galus is so traumatic for us. We're operating as if we're a bunch of human beings bumping around each other like like like Happens to be we're wearing yarmulkes and we do mitzvahs and we got a lot of s'char and we're big avreichim. Let's Like we have better self-help books than them. It's lunacy. It's lunacy. We're we're we're That's not That's not That's not what's happening come together. It's b'chol not. Right. You know, I give an example, you know, the it's coming to Shabbos haGadol almost, right? So, all the rabbonim. So, it's a sharp It's a sharp word from the Toldos Yaakov Yosef. He says, "Why is it that the minhag is by rabbonim?" He's talking about by Shabbos Shuvah, but it's the same. He says, "Why is it" He used to say by Shabbos Shuvah, so I'll say like the way he said it. "Why is it by Shabbos Shuvah the rabbonim say like a pilpul and a long this and then say a mussar shmooze? Chuvah, say a mussar shmooze." So, he said, "Why?" He said, "Because the only way to really uplift a Yid is not by telling him and communicating. That's that's the packaging. The real way to uplift a Yid is by bonding your neshama with them, by finding their struggles in your life, identifying yourself with them, and then you pick yourself up, and they get picked up, too." Wow. So, the Toldos, there's a problem. The problem is the chevreh in the shul, they need to do chuvah. The rav presumably doesn't. So, how is he supposed to be mechazek them in chuvah? So, said the the Toldos Yaakov Yosef, he writes this. He says, "So, what he does is he says a pilpul. He says a long this. He looks around the room. No one chaps he's talking about. And he feels good about himself. Oh, look at me. I'm such a talmid chacham." Now he has the chuvah. >> [laughter] >> Now he can be mechazek them. Beautiful. Beautiful. So, that that That's number one. Once you have that deep hiskashrus, so then you'll then the words that you'll say, the neshama will chap what you're saying. It's like if bodies are just communicating, then yeah, then if I just tell this kid, "You're amazing." You know, it's gevaldik. The line of Gemara that you struggled with and you put an effort for and you learned to me and to Hashem is as equal as 50 blatt that Rav Chaim Kanievsky learned. You know, you say those type of shmuzin, if it's just bodies talking, then that's all the kid is hearing. And then all the kid is hearing, he's saying to himself, "Okay, so one line is enough." But, once you're once it's coming from a place of neshamos communicating, neshamos are like candles. They're like fire. Ner Hashem nishmas adam. Neshamos want to go move from level to level. So, Yeah. once the neshamos are communicating like that, then it's just a matter of packaging. So, then when you put in the right words, the neshama will fill in the blanks. It'll chap on its own the rest that maybe is not If I want to talk about this at the next Rebbe meeting, I'll have to ask this guy. I might have to call you just to get chizuk. Play play the game. Beautiful beautiful thing. I have to say you might be in the chizuk business, even though that's not your focus. I could say for myself, and I'm sure for Reb Shonfeld and our many listeners that this meeting this conversation was exceptionally m'chazek. It's a wonderful thing to meet you and to hear your perspective and to see the vitality of what you're doing and the relevance and also how it's rooted in in in our mesorah. It's not you know, it's a beautiful synthesis and we really appreciate you taking the time and coming on and talking to us about it cuz it's very >> be that's an honor pleasure anytime. Reb Aryeh Garfield, wow. That was deep stuff. That was deep stuff. Do you How many people you still you still think are listening? All right, those three people. Probably his family, his kehilla. No, but they don't know how he doesn't I don't think he has technology to >> right. So his kehilla the cover of his kehilla called the book here. What I will share is it's humbling for me to listen to a person that is a vel talmid chacham in the nigleh in Bavli pesakim Yishal, you know, and is just steeped in in in interest in desire to really help people connect to Hashem. Like this I I I felt I was talking to to to someone special. I didn't understand everything he said to be honest. You said you you know, maybe you can unpack it a little bit. He did say he was not so I can't see that working so well in the seventh grade Rebbi pulling up to connect to the neshama. What the concepts by the way of you know, I think a soul shucker would say yeah, that's empathy, right? In a certain sense on in oh but Much deeper. There was a lot of deep things that obviously stroll and I know it was very deep and profound those two markers. When I was a bochur, I had an opportunity to learn the writings of Rav Kook a little bit. Which he has a safer called Orot or Orot, okay? And what was amazing about it and I am feeling the same hargasha now which was this recognition of the multiple layers of existence. Like he saw Klal Yisrael's Knesset Yisrael wasn't the land of Israel. It was just like super spiritual metzius, you know? Klal Yisrael Rav Kook writes the way he writes beautifully about Klal Yisrael all this stuff. So like I feel like all over here too with the Rav, it was like he sees Torah as this multi-dimensional mosaic of you know, I mean Great work. >> Yeah, and we see Torah in the way you know, at least I see Torah like I see Torah and it's so beautiful. That's why I was so touched. It's so beautiful to see that. Now, not everyone could relate to that you know, and whatever but And it still leaves a concern when he spoke about great A neshamos and great B neshamos that great B neshamos might need more songs and and >> success. They need to feel success. And that's what's so interesting about the Likutei Halachos of Rav Nosson his talmid who it's like a Shulchan Aruch. It's written halacha. He's talking about Ashkavah Boker but he uses all these mystical and sort of spiritual aspects and it's a weird mix of the two. It's really interesting. But the idea there being that you have to feel success. It's about feeling success in the here and now and that only is able to propel you forward. That's what he was saying from there on in is all even. Right, there still is this challenge of again using Reb Zaktinsky's you know, language of great A and great B and do you I mean again these are very esoteric concepts but I'm but even on a practical level of the struggling kid versus not the struggling kid, if you just speak in one language >> Yeah. to everyone >> know how it works. So you're born an A or a B and then it's like you know, you're stuck. So then you can mess up or due to parent conditioning nature nurture, I don't know how it all works. Let's assume you're born an A or a B in which case you're having your class I don't know percentages and all this stuff but like you're having your class A's and B's. So how do you have a school for A's and B's? I don't know. It's something to think about. You know, when you listen to someone who is steeped in chassidus try to be megashim and to try to you know, make simple very deep concepts it was hard. I might have to listen to this again a few times but as you said listen you know, it was definitely just the way he's like sometimes you see an apple and the person says I don't see an apple, I see I don't know, a car. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has definitely a different perspective. I mean I think that might be part of why the movement or whatever it's called the thank you Hashem you know, emphasis is so hard to understand for a lot of people because it is as you like to say nuanced and seeing like this whole shikul Torah you know, whoever you know, this is the first time I ever considered it in thinking about the thank you Hashem. You wouldn't necessarily appreciate this and Right. you know, and we still have problems that aren't resolved. So I think in a way we've made it worse in a way but at least we understand it but I don't think it's resolved. I don't think we answered the question well, right? If you go back to the original question I don't think we did. We unpacked it but we didn't answer it. Nope and we're going to leave it at that. I think honestly it comes down to a level of mesorah and your own personal dostara and your orientation and we don't have to pasken for people. I mean it's like there's so many it's really about your whole hashkafa outlook to the world and to life a little beyond our scope. I will say that maybe as yeshivas today we do try to do everything. I'll mention closing as you get older, it's only grade A. As we discussed in the beginning of the podcast, you know, but yeah, so I definitely in my yeshiva we try to do it all. The great A great B to use the is not so wonderful. All right, my favorite part when I get to tell everyone how much we appreciate them listening and sharing their thoughts. We get great feedback. It's like it's getting better and better. So keep it up on both the positive and the constructive. So we appreciate that. You can send an email to the [email protected], the [email protected] or if you're really brave and you want to leave a voice note we have a number for that. It's 443-686-9339. Again, 443-686-9339. I can't wait for shacharis. Take care. I just yeah. All right, all the best.