Eps 4. Tragedy and Teshuva

[Music] Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in Aguras Israel or that Rafatramsky was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabias? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the Times dives into the big concepts and overlooked moments that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. This is Jewish history like you've never heard it before. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephraim Zal Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. None of us will ever forget where we were when we heard the news on October the 7th. Sastora the terrible attacks then of Raf Galinski. In fact, I think it's so great was the shock and the trauma. Many of us will remember things that happened in the days afterwards. I certainly do. I remember one of my reactions a few days later that I started to hear many different places as well from others. The reaction was this changes everything. This has to change everything. Now, that's a widespread reaction to massive events, very shocking events. But this was said in the after sun after October the 7th was said in the religious context. There was a widespread expectation among fum Jews that after such anti-semitic medieval level hate there would be a new touva movement almost universally and I think we're going to get into this in this episode over here as we live through the aftershocks of this we here in Eritis B living through a war still it's the October the 7th war and as ll in you know here we with ll it's a good time to ask is there a tou of a wave. What does recent history tell us about Jews returning to their roots? And will it happen? What the conditions that can enable it, if it is happening, to increase and grow this time around? So, Prime Gam Galinsky joining you once again over here in behind the times, which is our newly renamed podcast. My pleasure, Dalia, >> as always. So, so let's start with some facts. I think some data actually because here in this country we certain bodies do track the facts over here related to children people's religious status over here and I think one of the most the things that struck me most of the last period of time was a was a survey that shows that again it caused headlines more than 53% of Israeli Jews under 29 years of age are now keeping some form of halik shabas. It's fascinating and it's also startling because it kind of indicates this kind of tipping point I'd say above 50% again of this demographic. And it's fascinating to note that this joins a string of surveys that indicate growing religiosity over the past decade or so. There's no question about it. We see it in the media. We see it every over here. I think there like two parallel waves happening. One is like you're saying before the last several years there's been surge of chuva among celebrities and you know singers and all that but I think what happened now was more due to a breaking of a previous feeling of an anchor. Their anchor which was sahal which was Zionism secular zionism fell away during October 7th. And when someone feels that he has no anchor, he starts looking for a different anchor. I mean there's two there are two parallel things happening which might not be related. I mean it could be the wave of the celebrities would have continued at a certain pace among them. >> It wasn't just celebrities. This is you know as celebrities were the most visible and I think their influencers their trends setters but they were also the hamoam vast numbers of Jews. Right. Rab Gillinsky, when you talk about two things happening in parallel, what I thought you were going to say, and perhaps you're going to get on to this, was that Israeli society is actually very interesting because it seems to be doing two things at once. On the one hand, it's getting more liberal in personal, you know, the public square tolerates behavior, let's put it like that, that is so far away from even, you know, even among secular people, they wouldn't have dreamt of doing things like this 30, 50, 60 years ago. on the one hand Israel is becoming more liberal right socially liberal on the other hand and at the same time it's actually becoming more traditional so it's a remarkable >> right right so I think we have to comment on this just like something factual okay the idea of Israel becoming more liberal is I think very is confined to what the Israelis called Medina Tel a Viv >> the state of Tel Aiv >> yeah you have to understand that when you enter certain radius of Tel a Viv you're actually entering a different country. I heard this from people, you know, like academics talking about the situation in is the state of Tel a Viv is like a cut and paste of a modern goes secular state outside of but besides for that very clearly defined area and the areas that that are part of that Medina, if you find places like Min or if you go to the north next to Rash Pina, everywhere you go, you're going to mind >> like small enclaves small enclaves of this thing. Correct. You're right. So those are the two trends. In other words, it's actually a tale of two countries. >> Exactly. It's not happening in the same place. That's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. But I was saying in the public square, you're having to when it comes down to I'm not talking about, you know, if you go to dies in Tel Aviv versus obviously the two different places. >> I'm talking about the countries between Tel Aiv and let's say correct. >> Correct. But it's a kind of the media and different places like this where you find a meeting where you find different trends clashing and there are there is definitely this thing and I thought one more point to add on to this thing is that when you're saying about what happened on October the 7th was that the smashing of previous ideologies for me that is encapsulated by something it was literally the first bit of reporting that I did after October the 7th on I was in London and so we were hearing stuff over there. Uh but it was obviously 24 hours later than my colleagues here in the Mishbaka in Erit is who got to work and a whole 24 hours it was one of the most unsettled times that I've ever had. I could not sleep or eat normally or I prowled in the streets of Gold's Green London with my in-laws over there and I couldn't find any manukha and I just and I was meeting talking to Goyam and to people it was because I couldn't I knew that back home I had to be dealing with this and it was I think we all felt like this and those init felt the similar thing but as soon as Yamv was out essentially the second day of Yamv then init I picked up the phone to somebody who put me in contact with the first person, the first survivor I spoke to and this was a man from a place called Nativa Assara Kibuts, a secular kibbutz on the northern border of the Gaza Strip is literally Nativas. For the benefit of our listeners, you have to describe that the area around Aza was populated by very secular kibbutim and very strong idealists from the right-wing camp. He had both types in the >> so historically the border region >> historically the border of the northern border with Lebanon Syria and the southern border which is with Gaza was the frontier of the old shamir very far-left essentially communist communist origin uh kibbutim and all in that era those for historic reasons not going to get into it now but in the niva Assera I spoke to one man I forget his name he was a man in his 40s who'd served in a special forces unit and he told me that a couple of years before this is a man who's trained to fight and had served reserve duty in one of as I said in this in a special unit and a couple of years before the war the IDF had come knocking and said we want to everyone to hand over their personal weapons and stuff that they taken to the army that they're allowed to have because we are responsible for the security in the area the man said I trusted the army now listen to what he said he said the most terrible this is a man who when they when kamas were going house to house in you know killing people. He was in in Civas where it happened there literally on the border right some of the houses there on the border he um was there holding discovering like many people that the mama the bomb shelter that he was inside there was no way to hold it closed from inside and he was desperate and he had a kitchen knife with him or something like that he had no weapon whatsoever and then he said the most terrible sound that he's ever heard. He said, "The most terrible sound that I ever heard was the silence. The silence between the shooting." He said, "I heard the birds tweeting. I heard the sound of silence." He said, "Because my 8-year-old and 12 or 13year-old son said, where's the army?" He said, he says, "Listen." He says, "In a minute, you're going to hear the sound of the tanks. They're coming to rescue us." And he said, "For 8 hours straight between the shooting and the killing, all I heard was silence." He said that was the most terrible sound I've ever heard. And he said that was the sound of and it the collapse of my belief because up to then I believed in the army and now I don't have and he said to me the following thing he said to me he saw that my picture was you know talking on the phone was religious. He says you're religious. Imagine if somebody managed to convince you God didn't exist. One day that whole your whole worldview collapses nothing left. He said to me it might say he said to me that was the sound that was what I feel like my whole world has come shaking down. So that is what you're saying in that vacuum in that vacuum we've had the rise of people turning against to Yiddish. The question is how much how much but it's definitely happening. >> I think one of our we have the privilege of meeting one another in the hallways of Mishbah. So you >> the privilege is all mine. You told me a fascinating story about the mother of one of the hostages. Trust yourself was a hostage. >> Correct. Yelena Trufanov. >> Right. She was a academic who came up because of October 7th. >> Correct. So the lady's name is people in America may have seen she has gone around and certainly her her daughter-in-law now to be a lady called Dr. Elena Trouanov. She's not actually she's a doctor. She's actually a chemist as in chemistry. She lived in Kibbutz near Oz again Gaza border area. Kibbut's very far left near Oz has inside it had I don't know what state it's in today the industrial plant where they manufacture one of Israel's big paint companies those who paint their houses over here know that they could use Nirat Niratus is like paint company that I didn't know until going there is named after the near O kibuts and the place was torched he said that the kamas did such a it's much smaller than some of the other kibuts seem like ber but actually they told me that their kamas did you know greater damage said by the time that the Isra Israeli forces arrived. Hamas were all gone because they'd cleaned out everyone. Cleaned out in the sense killed or captured and torched. There was nothing left. She was captured along with her son who's a big tall guy, young guy called Sasha Trufanov. They have Russian citizenship. She and the sons now, you know, Kalo is going to I think they're going to get married soon. >> This very emotional video of Ra Zilbashin making with him when he was released >> and he was released. He had Vladimir Putin. Hashem looked after him. Vladimir Putin said he's one of ours and he and it was part of the deal with Hamas and I had a conversation with her and I recorded it and I've been looking for that video because sitting there in her burnt out they was torched by Hamas that a nurat the paint plant her lab just destroyed in that lab she sat there and she said I am today a bit why she said the following thing she said I sat there in captivity and I thought to myself it's absolutely absolutely impossible to explain in any natural terms what just happened here. The army, one of the most powerful armies in the world, right? >> We now can say it with more conviction. >> Correct. We can see this is an army that's taken apart the axis of Iran's axis of evil, right? In stunning operations, right? Beyat Hashem, etc. But in just plain the, you know, the terms of cause and effect in this world, it is a very sophisticated, powerful institution. That army, she says, utterly ceased to exist on October the 7th. So much so, she said, our captives said to us, we never expected to find to get more than a few hostages from the army. They said, what happened to your army? What happened to it? She said, this Dr. Yelena Troufanov said, I also don't understand. I don't understand. She said, I grew up in a Ukrainian, you know, Soviet era home, totally irreligious. came turned left winky boots 1999 no connection with the religious people I myself said there must be a god there must be a god because only a god could do thing like this she came out of captivity all effects a balis chiva just with needing to learn and there she was sitting there it was about a year ago sitting there inside her lab holding a safer etc and that is for me the story rabbinsky of what is what has happened over here encapsulates the whole of what's happened over here hashem shook the Jewish nation in such a way that those who are balesh, those who are have a sensitive enough soul, you know, can see that there was something else going on. And that that's an example. There's others like this as well. Omar Shimtov, who came out of captivity, he I just saw a long essay in the Economist magazine and his mother said, I I was in touch with his mother and they wrote in this article, he's keeping much more. He had conversations with Hashem there and they weren't ne they weren't a very religious family to begin with. And the point is there is something in the air that has supercharged what was already happening over here. >> So we had a discussion at home. What's the most push explanation? Why should a person in captivity come close to so actually one of the one of the people at home I don't know if it was my wife or my one of my daughters or my sons they said if you read the introduction of the says that the basic necessity for amuna is right the uses the I think that's the >> we actually quoted is for those who are great devotees of anything we produce on podcast we quoted this in our podcast to the yes the introduction to >> right so so the idea is bringing out over is that it's really contemplate Bria and the feeling basic emotional state has to be one of complete calmness someone who is omit of like running after Tyus or whatever it is he he doesn't have head space for it and is if he reaches a certain calmness in his life then he can start seeing things and trying to understand the bria and this is what some one of my family members mentioned he says that for these people it took them the hours that were in captivity those are the first hashet that the khanish was talking about >> I think what you what you're describing and the is saying is a state in which a person is stripped back to the essence over there there's nothing else but in a certain way I think that's what happened after October the 7th as well in which all of us there was a shock we thought nothing else matters well if nothing else matters all of us said then everyone can see nothing else matters and surely people are going to get back to essences I want to just give this a historical dimension over here because recent times have shown us this trend the recent times has shown us that these things have happened before twice I'd say one of them is the 30s as Hitler rose to power and what happened German Jews over there and the other thing is after the six day war etc. And I want to get into both of them. I think the introduction to this is the is the Gmorrah the Gomorrah talks about when Hashem puts us under pressure Jews have a way of reacting like that in a very special way. >> Correct. The Gomorra son which talks about says if they don't do chuva right we talk about the process by which mush is going to come. what Hashem's going to do in the future, he's going to bring a leader, some power that's going to make to going to make horrific degrees of destruction and genocide like like Hmon and that process of pressure was going to bring people back and obviously we saw this in the in Hmon was the embodiment of Amalik and Hitler was the embodiment of Amalik in our times. I think there's a well-known period in the 30s, the late the second half of the 1930s in which the there was it was undeniable that Hitler wasn't going away. He was powerful. >> He wasn't in control of Germany yet, but he was on the way. >> No, I'm talking about the second half of the 1930s. Hitler came to power in 1933. And in the initial years, there were people who said, "Well, he's going to come and you German people are going to be forced into line by the by the Western powers or Hitler's really he's just a lot of talk." But by the second half of the 1930s it was very clear that was not the case and it was disaster and German Jews well doumented started returning to Schulz and it was not nec you know Schulles could be for religious reasons could be for cultural reasons they just had nowhere else to go but there was definitely a return that's documented in one of the sources just I immediately came to mind was in the book Ishihoodi which was written about a biography of of Yseph Kalabah the great last ro of the Kalabach dynasty the uncle of the singer Kalabak uncle of Kabakish and he's a very great person in his own right and he wrote that in the 19 >> was authored by his son >> his son who was >> and he writes the son writes there that during the 30s there was a noticeable uptake Jews who were distant from their religion and from their roots started to come home so I mean there was definitely that thing but I'm just I'm just scanning there was Victor Clemper He was a secular Jewish professor who was actually intermarried. He wrote in the 1930s in 1935, "People have not entered a synagogue in decades now went on Shabbat. I saw men in Talat who could not recite one prayer. It was a form of protest, a reclaiming of something long abandoned about other >> that is very interesting what you just mentioned now is a form of protest because we find this in America happening after October 7th." >> In what way? Meaning in people who encountered anti-semitism, they're saying if people are looking me as a Jew, okay, I better find out what a Jew means. That was their way of reacting to the anti-semitism on >> correct. And that was I saw you know the reform schools in England. I just sorry to quote that were filled up in the media afterwards. Jews felt and still feel tremendously isolated in a world which has turned against them. And I just a quote from I wrote I wrote a column a while ago towards the beginning of the war about liberal the pain of liberal Jews. The editor of the Atlantic which is really the kind of the house journal of the thinking you know democratic democratic party in America its editor was it's basically was a mouthpiece for Barack Obama. It's that senior. It's a very influential magazine. And they had one of the editors, Franklin Fur, wrote an essay, wrote a cover story about the saying that the golden era, the golden age of American jewelry is gone. I'm struggling to find the way to to convey what an earthquake it is to write for a Jewish editor of the most prestigious periodical on the left in America to write to do a cover story about that. the cut the cover and he wrote about the anti-semitism of the way that Jews were being forced out of the arts and out of media and out of everywhere and had gone from this favored minority to this horrific status of being thrown out by the left and he there was like a kind of an energy a kind of there was a kina there as well like as in like kinth right this sense of mourning of something that is broken and is gone and is shattered than is in the past I you know and that that goes together with what was happening as Hitler rose to power I'm Just over here quoting again the records from Berlin and Frankfurt noted a sharp rise in it synagogue attendance between 33 and 36. Quoting from the and this is a virtue of our friends at church GPT but they do the work over here from the Frankfurt. >> Who really tracked that information like >> the Frankfurt Jewish community's annual report said that in Frankfurt attendance for Colidri in 33 nearly doubled from the previous years. Entire families returned who last attended for Bameitzvah decades ago. I mean those are incredible thing over here and over here >> you can rely on the yakkesha communities that they really >> they tracked it they tracked it >> they tracked it and the point over here is I think it's intuitive I don't think it's hard to understand and as garra says the removal removing of's ring as he gave it over to hmon was what shifted was what returns hashem Jews to hashem and it's something we can understand we see it happening in our times but really I think the key point therefore is to go to look at that period 1967 1973 because this is the where the modern chuva movement starts in England in America and it starts in Eric and it's in Russia by the way right obviously in Russia we find and I think the lessons if we're going to draw out any lessons for what we can expect going forward now to October the 7th are there to be learned over there over to you >> yeah okay I just want to point out that whatever we're going to say now is not true regarding ing Russia and I'm going to get back to Russia at the end. Okay? Because regarding Russia, I had a very interesting conversation with a very interesting academic who lives one of these small houses on the way down to Enaram, if you know what I'm talking about. Like of all these artists >> in the art area. Yeah. >> Yeah. Very interesting. I walked into his house. It was like he has sits with like this big Bkarian yamaka and like wild white payers and white beard. He was a Russian academic made aliyah. So he described that kufa in in in Russia. That's when he grew up in Russia. We'll get back to that and it's I think it's for different reasons. I mean it's not going to be parallel to what we're talking about in America and that kufa. But we'll talk about first and I want to I want to introduce my remarks with something that I found very recently in a pamphlet that was printed. In my eyes it should have been printed as a full-fledged safer because it's really unbelievable. And I'll start off with something that a lot of people know. I think many of us have read Raviar's >> Waking Up Jewish, right? Waking up Jewish >> or My Friends, we are robbed. The two different titles, >> right? So I think the main part like the crucial part of the whole story is that he's going to a friend of his and he meets an oldman and that's what changes his life. Okay. Now the way I grew up with that story is that was a very tremendous and he kabo the cababo the and he was like one of the as well as being a thorough old-fashioned yakish education right he was phenomenally wellversed in everything that >> right he was the son of the one who translated rash on the toyra I think that's what I heard >> the silverman yes >> that's his father that's what I heard and he came to us and he married into Yushami family and he adopted the fully Us Shami dress that's why he wore a style and and a long coat and he has a very large family and that's the whole Zimberman >> in the old city >> in the old city right so so by the way the Zimmerman family are very shim shamay people and they're very not into publicity right so I think >> this episode is not funded by the Zuman family >> right right and no I feel that sometimes it works against us because they have such good things from Rabbit and they don't put it out like because you know they're not into it. They're not into that. So they put out like a small pamphlet of his about Amuna and that whole small pamphlet is based on the notes that he delivered to Uri in those long discussions that he had with him. >> That must have been amazing. >> Yeah. And because Urizar writes how he fought all the way. He looked down on this, you know, quaint archaic Jew with his rusty coat. He was a member of the, you know, he was a member of the elite. They were he was a philosopher. He was an artist and he wasn't having any of it. He went kicking and screaming. >> The first discussion was between them told listen I'm willing to give you as much time as you want. Okay? But on one condition that if I convince you, >> it will change your life. Okay? If I'm just wasting my time here, I refuse. And I came with a few people with him was the only one who said that if you convince me, I'm going to go along with it. So in any case, so in the to that pamphlet, I think it's called I'm almost sure something like that type of a and it's like small pamphlet. I don't know if people can get a hold of it. And in the it says over there that someone asked, how did you have all these answers prepared for Urizar? Now he really attacked him from all sides. U was a very learned person. He knew a lot and they told him something shocking which I think is going to be the key to our whole discussion. Okay. And he says, "I knew that there was a puk that there's going to come a time avoid knowledge of hashem." >> Right? I knew there was going to be a time like that and I knew that people will be seeking all right and thirsty forem. >> I had to be prepared. So I sat down way before Uri approached me. I sat down and I thoroughly went through everything. I think it was mainly based on the kuzari for sure rahal and things like that and I was prepared and when urizar came to me I took out that mak and that's how I >> like different nava. So no, so that why is that shocking? Because the majority of us when we see this nua, what what comes to our mind that there will come a time when will open up the heavens, okay? And he's going to spill >> knowledge knowledge, >> right? And we're going to sit back there on our lounge chair, right? And is going to do all the work for us. And it was thought not like that. He says that because will create the thirst but you're going to have to you're going to have to work on it. Okay? And if we don't work on it then it's not going to happen. So that that led me to this understanding that even the six day war in 1973 there's a bit of m is exactly what was the cause of the cha movement that came out dropped later. It didn't happen right away 1973. It took time. Was it the six day war or was it the breaking of the Kim that happened in in the 1970s? I think can I just jump in over here and say I think it's probably both because I mean Revolva wrote his famous safer which was for Bal on based on the talks he gave to in air you know air force bases and to different academics and different and he called it which is a play on the words you know Beno between Rashashan and Yippa but it was between the sixth day war oipa the 10th day and I think to be honest I I think it was that what we call a double whammy you have over there the incredible exhilaration the hope and I come back to this the Russian Jews I'm sorry I'm spoiling this thing come back there but I know for a fact that they felt kufa they felt proud of being Jews again why because the Jews had won and then six years later you had this down from the highest level down to this terrible breaking I think it was a combination of both that did so I think right anyway That's my view on what would have happened then. But over >> right so so basing on what Zan said. So I came to that realization that with the six day war and this the yum kipa war it wouldn't have happened if not for some dedicated individuals and I think surprisingly I think the listeners overseas will probably not recognize many of the names that I'm going to mention. Okay. And it's people who worked really shame Shamayim and behind the scenes. Okay. And I think the first people who really realized that something has to be done were three people. Two of them themselves Bal Chuva academics and one of them a from birth Yid who we all knew here in Mishbahha by the name of Mosha Gilak and soon I'll soon explain like why they brought him aboard. Ed, editor, founding editor of Mishbah, >> right? And these two Yidden, one of them is someone by the name of Dr. Scholam Ser Bernick. Does the name mean anything to you? >> I've heard of him, a fan of >> right. He was the founder of Arim together with another academic by the name of uh Ibal. I don't know what their route was to the chuva but they were the first to take the steps and they realized that something has to be done and they hit up with a certain idea which I think works very well with the hdma that we mentioned before is that you can't meet a secular Israeli on the street and try to convince him to become a bal bal it's impossible he's middle of his life he's middle of running after you know his parnosa day night if it's not his paros say he's going out with his family to the beach, whatever it is, it's part it's not feasible. So they came up with this ingenious idea which I don't think if this happened before in America, they came up with this mindfall, what we call in Yiddish. They said we'll have to convince couples >> to come away for us with some type of seminar, >> right? To come for shabas. Come like a Thursday, Friday weekend, whatever it is in a hotel. I don't think they ever did it in a fancy hotel or anything, but it was and people who had a thirst for knowledge for Yiddishkite. So, you know, it spoke to them. No, why not? Why not have a nice >> But that's the key thing, Raalinsky. There was a thirst because if 10 years before you'd said, "Come to a hotel here, bunch of rabbis." They were said, "Are you crazy?" Like, it was only because they were capitalizing on the fact that was, as you say, they noticed, they saw that there's something going on over here. There's a wave of interest and they say, "Let's institutionalize it. This is the way this is the vehicle that we can use to deliver meaning. But by the way, arim still does it it deals with this people become ballet chuva. There's no up to a few years ago it was noticeably less and in fact one of the who used to work here at Mishbah told me that it was a Belid who said who worked in Kiraov for bells has a kov organization and he said that the bells quoted the bleba the current bellba is saying that the window of chuva has closed it was closing and I think that if you went back to the bells rabbit today you he's going to say no this is it's wide wide open against it >> no the question is the venues how do you get to the people I mean I today it's going to be a long shot to try to convince them to come for a shop. It's like it's too much >> people do but it's much lower level there's kind of like a trend in society and let's go over to what was happening in America obviously you had I mean in America there were Americans living here often here in Eric but you had the you know the great initiators of the chuva wave very great people very different people who set up after the big bang in what was the in the kov movement the original kovisha became became became a well and knowberg or menbach different different I'm sure going to miss many out but there were different pioneers and leaders like that but as you say what it was they didn't just say I'm convinced it can happen they said we're going to do it [Music] weber has a story that he he's talking to in the mirror and says I don't understand you want to open up a factory to produce baluva you're like you're out of your mind like he he actually discouraged him >> and had this he was convinced that it was doable. >> He was a visionary and if he'd asked too many shilas it would never have happened as well because the only it's the example of a thing like this that the le itself knows what needs to be done. He knew it could be done. He knew it needed to be done and he did it. I think that's the key thing as well to notice these were big right was one of the big minds in Mir. He was a massive masmid and they said they took and they said they took themselves and they said no there's something extraordinary going suddenly a big moment >> I just want to add something about something that I've discovered only recently I don't know if the in America knows one of the very special who was nif only several years ago was and the reason why people in America don't know who it is because right after was nif so I I heard this I swear a few times that there was a tufa where the tur didn't know like who's going to be taking over from the kadesh would it be gaman who is his nephew and is like prime talid or will be ra and rashiva from panovich and and at the end it happened that rashak took over the leadership of the tow world and gam's name was a bit forgotten on the side but rahim gman was a very powerful force here to soul. He probably had savings or that he received that after he got married or something like that. And just recently, I heard from someone who was like he was close to the family that he gave out of his pocket $1 million. >> That's remarkable. A nephew nephew of the >> found had a million dollars >> to found to found and he had a whole why it's more than you know you're not allowed to give more than he said. Alis you don't work with >> I mean that's remarkable because I think that people are not aware of and I only came across this because in Tel a Viv was doing kerov there was multiple kaleim staffed or you know people populated by aim who were you would think the last people kov they were what they call here in khaznik right they were in very intense followers of the kazunish and then I discovered that no it was because raman had encouraged this thing he was a visionary a visionary and he said to him we can make a difference. But I think that's the key point you're making over here that it's not enough to have a shaisha this movement this time when people are prepared and are open and listening. They got to have the great people step stepping forward as well. If I can add just something two very interesting points. Rav Gilak told me that they had to sit down him he was like the from birth part of the team him and Shalom Sarik and Baal they had to sit down and build the curriculum of the these seminars right this whole plan like what to give them you know different bites of information and things like that. So he told me something very interesting. He said that they once invited to a seminar that was taking place inim near and that's near the yeshiva of rightio. So they said listen we make a se seminar in inim we have to invite who was the of to give at least give a schmoo. He was like the most sweetest sadic you probably would ever meet in your life. He was like very softspoken. He spoke pureit because he wasn't he didn't like he wasn't born in even though he was like he was na over his 90s but he didn't he wasn't born in lit and came to and he was like purely Israeli and he spoke with pureit and they asked him to give a lecture to these the secular Jews who were at the seminar and he got up there and he says Ra [Music] Gulak was telling me >> free translation how's it possible not to believe in the creator of the world you see what a beautiful world that is he said immulac told me says like I put buried my head buried my head shame I was so embarrassed It's like what are you talking these are academics these are secular academics he says at the end of the seminar we handed out papers to ask them feedback which was the most powerful lecture and they all said and then I realized that what people want is they want >> exactly wants >> yeah the Jewish >> authentic an authentic Jew >> see it again and again I think there's so many names you got to mention as well there with his >> that is another part that's you have to you pointed out something Right? That is another the whole spari world was built and pushed by other personalities. And we're talking about Ruven Elbad Ruven Elbad or Shiva of Orim and together with Rabad Ysef's unbelievable charisma, right? And his regal way of presenting himself and his vast Torah knowledge which blew people away and his pride. So, so all that were like big kas in the world. >> But again, again, I think we have to say there was the same ingredients over there. The safari world up to that at that point in already in the 70s was starting to say as we saw in political terms will say we're not we've had it with the Ashkanazi elite. We're going to go our own way. We have our own pride. We have our own traditions, our own roots. And then when you had that situation, you had the right person at the right time who said who was the general who said, "Let's go for it. We can do it." and he himself we spoke about in our old series and the way that that he did that but I think the key message there if I'm taking it away from that is that you have to have the a situation which people are open to it but then there needs to be someone to capitalize it's not >> just to add on one name when he's talking about the youth the youth the name that comes to mind is gross he had this >> the rabbi of the discos >> he had the push to tap into the youth >> and he was I saw with my own I I had a Talmid. I teach in American yeshiva. There was a Talmid like from background. It was really like very like low observance and all that. But at a certain point he he connected to Ra Gman and he made a see him when he was by us. He made a sem or a peric I don't remember and grossman came from mdala to see him and the love that you saw between this boy and grossman hugging him and being with this was just unbelievable. You saw he had the he had this of to connect to people. You had this guy who grew up in May and he managed >> I think I think if I would summarize I'd say that the that a couple of things that the Chuva movement which you know built 60s and 70s and became a big wave and here in Israel we know over the government keep statistics you know over a quarter of a million baluva and vast numbers in they've changed the face of every community with baluva with their dedication and sheer numbers and it's still going on it's still going on and And I believe that it's going to could and I know from talking to macarim that they say the pe number of people after you know who are much more interested before has definitely risen. I think it's two things. Number one is that it's the chuva movement is actually very much an Israeli phenomenon. Meaning it's strongest here. It's strongest here but it's also radiated out from over here as it were because even the Americans over here over here sent out its feelers and it's all over the world right from over here in the old city created a world movement from here right and you even have things like gateways in America which is basically was a creation of arim right and it's a very fascinating thing as well to see see as well that the the Russian chu movement we said we come back there but the Russian chuva movement the one of the biggest organizations many people in the English speaking world are not aware of is to do it's called to do which is silver who was a great the ra of the Russians and from here the movement was from here and radiated out all across the former Soviet Union >> in one word we're going back to the Russian how it started it's actually more fascinating than all the other examples that we gave in America and it's role because we're talking about people who were behind the iron curtain. People today cannot relate to what it means to be behind the iron curtain like a complete disconnect from the outside world. And you, as you said before, the six day war, this I heard from this academic that I was talking to, they felt this Jewish pride and they didn't know what to do with it. So I said, "What do you mean?" But you had from Jews over there who were left over from before the wars. We're talking about the 1970s, right? There were people. So he told me, "No, but they spoke a different language. those Jews was taught Yiddish and these young academics spoke Russian. There was no connection. He said the situation was that they used to come to shul like him. The shoe was packed with old Jews. The courtyard was packed with young academic Jews. There was no connection between them until one of the people, one of the young academics by the name of Ala Esas, you probably know the name. He established a contact with a Talim called the Rav Miller. He was like the unofficial RV of Moscow Shul at that time and at a great risk to his health. He's he was already imprisoned beforehand Miller to teaching for teaching Eden and he suffered a heart attack in prison but he when he was released bleus managed to convince him >> and through Ilia Essus who is a mathematician from Moscow he started the whole chuva movement in Moscow I didn't know that at all >> right through the through I wrote an article about this I think it came out in the English edition >> well I should read the mishbah occasionally >> right but that's what I'm saying that the Russian scene is entire entirely different this aside for what Kabad did in Russia for sure was a great >> I think when I'm taking pulling all these things together I think it's possible to summarize and say I think it's clear amas been on a journey since the 60s right of even the waves of chuva and the we're on a journey it's you know 200 years ago and before the war especially we reached this historic low in which Kalisra was running away from the Tyra from the 60s it's been climbing it's going up. It's happening. And I think after October the 7th, there's no question that this is happening and potentially to happen even far greater. We're seeing that in all the statistics in Israel. We're seeing that in all these different pieces of the liberal Jewish cry of pain that I identified. And the question is therefore, do we have this the people there and a way uh cumin to bring people in? Because I think it's important to know nothing is linear. Nothing is inevitable. We have to reach out otherwise they'll be left in the cold. >> Beautiful Dalia. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for listening to Behind the Times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time. [Music]