Eps 18. A Handful of Dust

Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in a good Israel or that Rafatkabski was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabias? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the Times dives into the big concepts and overlooked moments [music] that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephrien Zma Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. In the closing months of 1999 with Aud Barak as prime minister and Israel living through the uncertain atmosphere of the Oslo years, an extraordinary scene unfolded on Harabias. The Islamic Wack which controls the Harabas had begun converting the underground chambers known as Solomon Stables into what would become the Marowani mosque. Without archaeological supervision, bulldozers dug deep into the southeastern corner of the Harabias, scooping up centuries of accumulated earth and loading it onto waiting trucks. Hundreds of truckloads were deposited on the slope of the Kiddron Valley. To the casual observer and also to the archaeologist who was employed by the wack himself as a rubber stamp, these trucks were carrying nothing more than dirt. but mixed into that soil with the accumulated remains of nearly 3,000 years of history, fragments of pottery from the first and second basic mikdash. Pieces of stone, ancient coins, bones, ash, and seals, the residue of generations who had lived and walked upon the mountain that lies at the heart of Jewish memory. That discarded soil thrown away by the Muslim wax in their attempt to erase Jewish history and connection to the Harabas is where our tishab journey begins. Fryim Zamalinski, you and I both spent time or know what's known as the Temple Mount sifting project, which is on a slope opposite the Harabias. And although we're recording today from the Mishbaka podcast studio a few miles away, I'd like to take you and all the listeners with us on a journey that begins over there to this enormous project that has drawn quarter of a million of volunteers from all over the world to literally make their way through bucketload after bucketload of admas kesh handfuls of dust from the Harabas itself. The fascinating thing about this whole story of Dalia is that the Arabs have been ruling the Temple of Mount Harabis for the past 500 years since the Ottoman Empire took control over vast majority of of the Middle East. Archaeology, official archaeology has started 150 years ago. They never allowed any digging on Harabis for good reason. Because once you start digging there and you find a remnants of ba and bai that takes away the whole Arab narrative of what's going on in Harab. So they never allowed anything. But when they needed a mosque and by the way the mosque that you mentioned that they dug up over there was to build a third mosque. For centuries there were only two mosques in the Harabai. It's the dome of the rock and the act which is on the left side. But this is a new mosque that holds 15,000 people and they needed it I guess for room. So even though they allow anyone else to dig there, they like like you described, they dug up truckloads of dirt. However, it turned out to the opposite that those truckloads were the most close that we can get to digging on harabites. Correct. And as you say, it has provided a window into something that is extraordinary and I think very apt for tishabove itself whether you're listening to this you know whenever you're listening to this but in the days leading up to tishabove which is the chance to reconnect to something that that even if you go to the coastal is distant from us which is the reality of the harabas itself and it's I think I want to in this in this podcast episode a special edition behind the times for Tishov to go into a journey into archaeology, but not archaeology for the sake of archaeology. I don't think that anyone would accuse this of being a very specialist podcast itself, but as a way of solving what I think is a problem that I think we have. I think that our generation very consciously struggles with a problem of uh disconnect particularly from the idea of mikdash and therefore if you're listening to this on afternoon which you might well be you might be competing with any number of worthy videos or films produced which is an unbelievable thing that we have a day that until within living memory no one would do anything. Perhaps it started with the Heritage Foundation about But has become if you're not producing a major media production for Tishab afternoon, you're just missing out. You're not a serious media organization. >> I must point out a lot of these productions >> do not talk about the hurban per se. They talk about things that you know >> correct and and and Fran this is at the heart of what I want to try and get to a bit through in different ways. We are as I said our generation very very consciously struggles with the idea of connecting. It's perhaps the most difficult day in in the calendar, the Jewish calendar nowadays. 25 hours in which it's a and it's and not only is it physically difficult as well, but we understand is a chance for it's a it's a day of but our our generation struggles to connect with tishov and it struggles to connect with the whole idea of because we we don't feel it and I think perhaps we should circle back to that later a bit about the actual debate itself. We've got some mash on this but I think that it is opportunity to connect to this uh in this episode both through looking at some of the findings of the archaeology and also how Gdali is of today and of recent times [music] have dealt with the day. If you allow me I want to begin with something that has nothing to do with the the the sifting project narabites. I want to talk about the archaeologist who is behind this whole story. And I hid onto this figure, this personality who passed away only like a few months ago. And to my great sorrow, no one covered it. I mean, there's nothing in the Hebrew or English press. It's just >> Yeah, I know. Secular secular press. >> What was his name? Gabi. >> Gabi Baray. Dr. Gabi Bar. >> Gabriel Barai. Yeah. He was born in the ghetto of Budapest. But what what I remember he said that his last memory from the ghetto was his father giving him a braha the >> was unbelievable cuz he was Isaac. >> Oh that exactly that's what I want to tell you. That's how I found that's how I found out about it because >> if you realize you know the for many many years the earliest sukim that we had written down outside of the Tory outside of what we have in our >> physical evidence physical evidence >> the first manuscript >> was the the uh >> and they they [clears throat] are dated 2,000 years ago which is time you know you know that right but bias we don't have anything written especially Sukim we don't have anything written so that you know that gives an opening to many uh heretics you know but but what's fascinating is that he was he was excavating a a burial site that is outside the walls outside >> called ketum as I was >> khino he says the ketum is own invention by the way >> ketom is the shoulder of hom now what's fascinating about that site is that usually graves from that period were looted because the migu was people used to bury uh valuables together with >> very interesting Jewish Jewish makur I have no idea what the macar is >> buried with their valuable sounds like a bunch of Vikings or Egyptians or whatever >> so usually graves will loot it >> so don't have anything from inside the graves it's it's like it's empty because the the people who just like destroy robbers would just destroy the the literally Brave robbers. >> Exactly. So he was ex he he was checking out this this site and he had a a kid who was uh tagging along you know like you need volunteers for these things right even now the sifting >> his dig on this place Ketum he didn't have enough money for the dig get real volunt he had literally teenagers helping him a man who became a famous archaeologist and what did he discover? Oh, so he he tells a fascinating story. It's like a hashga story. Yeah. There was one kid who was a nudnik. You know how do you say that in English? He was a >> He drove everyone mad. >> So he he said, "You know what? Do me a favor. There's a grave over here. Take like a a broom and a dustpin, whatever it is." He wanted to keep him busy. Says the next thing I knew was >> that he was tagging on my shirt and I wanted to give him such a clop, you know, like leave me alone. So he says and he held in his hands he held in his hands like two artics like things like from from >> they were little pieces of silver. >> No no no no it was I think it was it was pottery at that time. >> Okay. Okay. >> And he said where did you find this? So he says he comes and what they found out was something so fascinating. They said that the uh the roof of the cave where the graves were caved in. Okay. So it dropped and because it dropped, it buried underneath it all the valuables that were buried with this caver. Okay. >> So the grave robbers hadn't been able to access. >> Exactly. And they start taking out the thing from inside and they find two tiny if you would see it how how big it was when you think it's just piece of junk but they two two tiny silver scrolls like they were holding something you know you have to unroll them. >> Were they silver like cases with a scroll inside? No, no. I think I think it was written on the silver on the silver. I >> think they were actually scrolls. Now I'm remembering scrolls made of silver and they and they were too brittle to >> unravel. Unravel, right? >> And but what was on the written on was they found the birkas khanim from the times of which is fascinating. We're talking about 500 years before >> the death scrolls. So this is a find that has that it's like an earthquake in historical circles, right? But for some reason the one who found them, Gabi Baray was not I I would think that he would become like nationally famous and when he passed away people should have >> he should have been a national treasure. >> Exactly. And it just like he just his passing just like >> to make it so sad. But but his next project was a sifting sifting project which which people do know about and we're going to talk about over here. So I think you're right in saying Rabbi Galinsky that you have a it's isn't it something he got a bra I mean this was a kayen and a Jew he grew up clearly in a he wasn't particularly religious after after when he came to to to Israel and I think what he said he was going back just a little bit because it's you can watch videos of him out there and he had this amazing ability to um a lightness with which use language and very fascinating great phrases I find myself uh remembering and and absorbing things. He said, you know, it was born when the Nazis came into Hungary and then he wouldn't have survived except for the Red Army under Joseph Stalin. And he said because they they got to Budapest and before the Germans had managed to exterminate all the Jews. He said that many people were killed by Joseph Stalin, right? But I was kept alive by Joseph Stalin. He had a bunch of ways things that he would say and one of them getting back to what you said before about the Harabias was that the Harabias is a black hole. He said it's the most important archaeological city in the world and at the center of it the most sensitive archaeological site in the world of which no archaeological dig as you said right before the beginning ever happened. As you said he called it like a black hole like in science it just no findings from there. And so the the sifting project which we're going to talk about over now provides us with this incredible view as to what happened. Just to give you a scope of the amount of thing I think in the lecture he gave in Cambridge was that where it was he spoke about a half a million flying >> right so let's back up a bit and say what what actually happened when the Palestinians essentially the wack which is actually controlled by the Jordanians has to [clears throat] be because that's a legacy of their control that's the last thing that they've been able to keep control of the Harabas since 19 >> no the Israelis actually gave it to them >> they gave it to them but they didn't that was that the control of the Harabas is of considered to be great prestige for the Hashimite kingdom of, you know, the monarchs of of Jordan because the rivals to the Hasheite, the Jordanians are the far wealthier clan, the Saudis who run the Alsad family who run Mecca Medina and that is for them a great prestige. So they have the third most important site for Islam is their is apparently according still for this monarchy. It's a source of legitimacy. The Jordanians actually run it, but it's a the Jordanians and Palestinians. Uh, you know, I'm not sure we're going to cause an international diplomatic sensation on this podcast by saying it's much of a muchness. Jordan, Palest, the Palestinians, basically the same at this point. So, when the W came to to start digging it out, there was a bunch of people who saw that this is and the Israeli government knew what was happening. But in back, it gives you an idea. This is 1996. They started the surveys, the wack in on the Harabas. 1999 they they they bring in the heavy earth moving equipment in this tremendously sensitive archaeological zone and geopolitically sensitive thing and because of the Oslo process which was all about but don't rile up the Palestinians and don't rock the boat because we won't get a peace deal and that was what a barak felt and successful governments they did nothing about it they were busy literally carving up the harabas in huge amounts of earth moving and they did nothing about it and it was only a few of the archaeologists then can you imagine anything like that happening today. There would be legions of people out there who were demonstrating were literally blocking those trucks with their own bodies. Imagine that the same way they tried to block them going into Gaza. They wouldn't let it goes to show how weak everyone felt back then. You can't do anything. The Palestinians, you can't upset them, etc. And so they didn't do anything about it. What they did was they dumped with utter contempt as if it was trash. They dumped. I mean, even if it wasn't sensitive archaeological zone. I mean, what type of, you know, civic behavior is it to literally, you know, to 400 truckloads of stuff and dump it in the middle of nowhere? What gives you it's just like the it gives you an idea of the wild west with that that went on over there and they they dumped it there and these archaeologists there was a few aat mazar other ones agai they said we have to look through this they started if they got obviously fundraised in order to set up an entire team an entire project which is still ongoing going through those enormous thousands of tons of earth sifting through it painstakingly and the way they do it is >> they invented a technique that was not known until then >> right so the way it goes is like this they found some enor enormous things. But generally the thing that you're going to what you get is if you go there's kids do it and it's people turn up and they 20 people at a time. You you get this bucket of earth. It just looks like a plain bucket of earth. Okay. And then you pour it through into like this um square type of container with with essentially a civ which is mesh and you get like a little hose with a you know with a spritzer on the end. And that's why kids love it because it's >> very primitive. Like >> it's extremely primitive but it's effective. Kids and families love it because it's like it's there in in on the tourist areas, but it's all shaded because, you know, it's got a roof over it and there's lots of water and you spritz the thing and so they literally use kid power, you know, kitty playtime who makes sure that if anything is found. >> So what happens is when you go in the archaeologists, the volunteers on the on the site, they give you a little talk and they show you that generally speaking, finds whatever you find will fall into one of five or 10 groups. So I don't remember which. And so you already know because a huge amount of what you're going to find there is pottery. And pottery sometimes can be >> pottery, coins, jewelry, and seal. >> Correct. Now what happens is if you see a seal, it looks very like a bit of pottery, right? But eventually after half an hour there, you start seeing ah there's there's you can find little blue tiles and and and then the kids will say, "Oh, I found something." Adults feel amazing. And it could be a tile or it could be a piece of bone because remember there's huge amounts of carbon. So, who knows what was going on over there for thousands of years. It's the it's the junk and the treasure of millennia. That's what's going on over there. And it's it is an unbelievable feel to that there. You go up there and it's overlooking the Harabas. And you get up there and you and you see you're sifting through the Harabas itself. It's almost like I say Admas Kaidesh. It's holy ground over. >> I want to explain something very very important at this st this stage. Okay, th this mus that they were digging comes from corner of Harabas, right? If you imagine yourself at the kisel, right? So you take the right hand corner >> and and take it until the end until the opposite corner of the harabis behind the >> the southeast cuz the co coastal is on the other side, >> right? So so it's all comes from that corner. Now, what's interesting is like this. That corner, the majority of those 2,000 years that we're talking about since the Kurban, that corner was on a different level than the rest of the Harab. It was lower. It was much lower. And that area where they that mosque that they're building originally was overground and not underground like it is today. Now, how did that turn into underground? And so this Gabi Vari explains because that site was filled with earth from other parts of Harabas >> and they did it to level it out. >> Exactly. They did it to level out. So So what you're having over there, that corner over there, >> it's stuff from the main part of the Harab. >> Exactly. That's right. Every all that's what he said. All the dirt that's there all comes from inside the Harabes. You have to I think it's worth to describe to the listeners that how did the harabite that we know today come into being because if and originally it was a har it was a mountain right what do you see today you say >> a plateau flat is raised >> so you see a box >> now why do you need a box because when hordus king her when he wanted to expand the base of migdash actually rebuilt it so he had to have a you had to have a straight platform in order to build a massive building on the regular mountain would have been impossible. >> Yeah. >> So what he did was he enclosed the entire mountain into a box. >> Mhm. >> And that's what we see today. The marov is one. >> That's king Herod, >> right? And the is the other. And until you have like foursided box and he filled it with earth. That's how we created the the now all that all the entire area of the Harabas whenever they had construction or anything that the stuff that was left over was spilled into that south corner. >> It was like a landfill came. >> Yeah. >> But it all came from inside. >> Mhm. >> That's why it's a wealth for what occurred in the entire Harabai not only in that corner. So in essence it's in a giant dust bin that contains a lot of rubbish and a lot of an amazing findings. Some of the things I think perhaps we can talk a little bit about what exactly some of the treasures that you that have turned up there over the ages. >> For me the most fascinating was a what they call a they call in Hebrew a bullah a seal. It's actually a seal when you want to send a letter to someone or a package. So you would >> hold on. Is that where the Hebrew word bull comes from? A stamp. Yeah, it could be, right? >> Because if it's a Latin bull or bull bull, right? It's a Latin word. So presumably that's where bull right modern Hebrew never thought about that. >> So um so once you once you open up the package so it breaks apart. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because that's the whole idea to show that it's authentic. Yeah. >> It's like it used to be we have when we were children they still had like wax seals if you remember that. >> No River Fry you're giving away approximately your age. I have never seen a wax seal. >> Okay. So in any case, so so it would be broken apart. But what they found fascinatingly, they found a seal from a coyen from the Emir family. I remember hearing from Bakai that it was, but here it says Alao Ben. It says on the seal it says Ben. And that clicked something by him by Gabi Barai. Yeah. Because it says we know the Emir family. Where do we know them from? We know that they were in charge of the Harabas at the time of Yer Anovi and probably his brother Pashur Ben was the one who imprisoned Yurio Anovi. >> Meaning we know from Yurio that this Pashur Benimir existed and here you find a seal saying Ben the same period. >> Right. So we're talking about you have in your hands a a uh historical piece of evidence from the times of >> on the I find that I find that so it's so emotional. is the one is the one who is writing about the >> he's the of the right is the and when you when you hold this or even if you see this and I think it's so important just that you know you could just do a simple search and you find you see a picture like this you see it takes you back 3,000 years or 2,700 years to the time of the and there's other there's other things plenty of findings there that take us back to the actual because the the itself was the military. It was a battle site. It was obviously the tie the the endgame of both of the >> they found arrow heads from >> Nuhanets, right? And also from Titus, right? And it these are all the way from Italy, you know, made in Italia. There's they found them over there and you realize that this is this it just connects you when you see the thing like this. Visually, I think the most impressive find was 150 tiles, colorful tiles that were the floor of the Ba Mdash. And Kazal tell us how beautiful Ba Mdash was was uh was built by by by >> Hudas Herodra. >> So, it's interesting. How do they know that this was from the bay sheni from the kufa of Hordus? Because they found the same tiles in different palaces of Hordus all over. >> Hold on. Cuz because Herod built Masada that is what else did >> Herodon the Herodian. Right. >> Right. Right. And he had other summer palaces. I think there's one in the area of >> you know it reminds me I always say this is what after spending a few years touring is I thought to myself >> the biggest builder of the land of Israel before the Azraeli family was king Herod he was an incredible builder in fact he was people don't know they go to the maras the entire the building on top >> that building was built right it's the same stones as the kiso >> huge he was he was he was a builder he built on scale If I'm not mistaken, he also built the port of Kisaria, right? And there, to give you an idea, Hurdus was building with Roman technology. And the technology was so advanced. And this is one of the things that really impressed me when I visited there's a museum there in the port because it had an artificial harbor that was built by Herod and about 500 years ago it collapsed in the time of the empire >> and the Ottomans didn't possess the technology to rebuild Herod's port that stood for one half because the Romans had a technology that that was that it took till the very the modern era to you know to reenact and to and to things like this but yeah to see Herods and particularly about those floor tiles It's very interesting because I remember when I visited this sifting project. So one of the things that you find is little bits of colored tiles. Now everyone the reason they had that you know as you say a tile is a big thing is a is a unique find and but there's a lot of common tiles because area must have been tiled and retiled how many times in history? You know this is a building that's building even under the uh the Muslims and for a thousand years and in between the crusaders but the Muslims particularly they use in the arabesque art they or or decoration they'll use colored tiles and so a lot of what you find is blue tiles could have just >> you don't know what you're finding. >> Yeah. So they know how to class classify them and you know so some of it just may be a Ottoman refurbishment from 200 years ago. But essentially what we're looking there is is these tiles and it that the they've been able to reconstruct the beauty of these tiles themselves because we know the Gmorrah tells us that the the effect that Hurdus the Herod Kaggali Hayum it would had the effect of waves and this didn't mean anything until about 10 years ago when through the sifting project and and and in an interview about 10 years ago I saw Gabby Barai said he says we ourselves were not privileged to see the Bam the Bameik mikdash in all its splendor. But through these extraordinary flaws we can gain this small impression of its magnificence. He was really in some way really lived lived this this basikdash finding in some way. And another thing that he mentions in one of his lectures is that Josephus just as Matisio who was a co in the Ba Mdash. He describes the impression that a person got when he reached the when he was climbing up the stairs like from from the shook of climbing up stairs until he reached the har and you would see a massive structure in front of you which was according to what he said was the most the largest religious structure in the ancient times. Okay. the the Harabay, like the building that was on the Harabas. And one of the most uh impressive achievements in in that building was what they called the the stav. It was like a gigantic porch with hundreds of pillars. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And what they found in the findings over there was the stone that was on top of the pillars that held up the roof. >> Yes. So, so one of the they call it a capital the top of a Greek or Roman column is like this intricately carved but massive piece of masonry and that is one of the that's a crazy thing because the things that they normally find in the sifting project are tiny this is >> this is a big like a a huge like a big watermelon >> Joseph was called you saw a forest of pillars when you went when you reached the the top of Harab and they found one of the one of the top stones of these pillars another interesting thing they found was was a piece of that said migamel and they dated it from the times of mane it was like type of like a tax or something right >> that was sent to the melan >> unbelievable that's so moving that I just want to say a couple of things one one of them is about one other finding which I think we can really really brings home to you the story of the is the fact that some of the masonry in fact some of what they found there this particular finding the actual stone huge stones were black with soot were burnt And that just brings home to you that what did they do? They torched the bam mikdash. And here we have the stones are black. The soot does not disintegrate and and the effect after effects of fire elsewhere in the old city. For example, if you go down through the roa through the courtyard after the kurva and there is under the arches where there's shops and restaurants over there before you go down to and that type of thing is you find there's a museum there called the burnt house. And the burnt house was burnt in the time of the Kurban itself. And they found very you can see a picture of obviously taken it away. But the archaeologists when they they found the skeletal arm of someone who was killed leaning, you know, who was burnt to death or something, but his arm was still intact there. The other arm inside the burnt house itself. Fire is fire survives thousands of years when it's when it's preserved in that way. And so you see the we talk about the on tishab we talk about that that after that the reason that aos gets less and in fact perhaps the reason you listen to this is is because the was happening and that was like the the bd and that was like the the kur of the mace itself it's not me of it's after kura already the we see that we see that that burning itself that's one thing that made an impression also of these findings but ju just another thing I think is worth bearing ing in mind as well which is what was Gabriel Gabriay's context who was he doing archaeological or academic battle with. So the main claim against the temple mount dig and that comes out very strongly in his lecture in Cambridge was that if you want to present an archaeological find has to be done in context. those two words that those that's the essence of the >> the purists would say that is the only legitimate >> right what does it mean in context right you have to find it discover it at the site where it was buried >> which is impossible here because the Palestinian they tied our hands down right because they'd only let you allow you to dig in the site itself and once they even they if they removed it from the site >> right but that's it it's not out of context already. So you don't have anything to prove. So he he has a very strong uh tin there. He says the vast amount of fines overrides that that that claim of that it's not in context and he said he he uh he digs at them you know he gives them a a >> well let me explain who them is. I think it's I think it's important to understand that there is a coherent archaeological school that is actually in some ways driven by pro Palestinian narrative that has sought to belittle and minimize the Jewish connection to the Harbay but in general to belittle the existence of the biblical narrative itself. really important. They call it the minimalists, you know, school or the Copenhagen schools. A couple of academics in Copenhagen who who were at the center of this and very influential in the '9s 2000s which was when this the sifting project got off the ground and basically it says like this the the contention of these academics was the biblical narrative of a what is called United Kingdom. Now I'm from England, right? Talk about United Kingdom of Great Britain. It means the avidic you know and from a powerful centralized state that was cohesive coherent and ruled territory on a imposing scale enough to justify all the narratives around it. They say not true. They say like this in one version or another David King David was a hilltop chieftain. He ruled over a little town on a hilltop that had no great significance in the area and the contention their contention is because we don't find that any of the other regional powers mention David. So they say he probably is and this is the extreme wing of this of this school of thought says he is a fiction. He's a biblical fiction. What's weird about that even what's weird about it that last week we spoke about the fact that made such a deal to commemorate his capture of Lish and mention that the king of of Judah at that time was giving him gifts and giving him taxes. Right? So it was important enough the malud was important enough for San who was the major world power at that time right to commemorate his over a king of Judah but we say he came from nowhere meaning there was no David and no yeah but so the contention is it was made up by later dynasty as an origin story to a biblical story to therefore justify themselves you have to understand there's a context over here and it's incredible one of For example, a guy called Keith Whitelam wrote, listen to the title of his work, the invention of ancient Israel. That's this book. But listen to the subtitle, the silencing of Palestinian history. That's the point. It's agenda-driven. And so they say there's no evidence. And so we push back again. comes apart. Remember the '9s, the 80s and 90s times very much of religious skepticism and push back against the dominant religious or cultural uh narratives in America, elsewhere as well. And they said, "No, it's not true." And so archaeology, I think, becomes geopolitics. You can see the present leader of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmud Abbas, right? Abu Mazan as they call him. He's he was he gets up and he's denied in the past the connection that the Jews have had a connection to the Temple Mount. And this is a guy who's, you know, on a world stage happy to do this. And why is he doing this? Because it undermines if the Jews don't have a past, they don't have a present and future in the area as well. >> He makes fun of them. Gabriel Vakai, he makes fun of them. He says, "I saw, you know, research, academic research that bases so much on so little." >> Yeah. >> And here they're taking it a half a million fines and he's saying, "Ah, just because it was at it's not in context, then it it doesn't have validity." >> And he's and Gabi Barakim in fact said a very powerful thing. He said one the entire claim is we don't have external corroboration and of confirmation of what happens in the Bible and the first time we do have is when Shishak Melik the king of Mitraim comes and he we have some record of him interacting with the monarchy. So he said I don't understand at Shishak you're willing to say suddenly that one of the kings mentioned in the Bible is also mentioned in the other in the in the wider historical record. Shishak suddenly is okay. But something that happened five years before Shishak suddenly is not okay. He said the whole thing is incoherent and he himself said politic politically driven. He himself in 2016 he had this encounter in which he was leading as I said he wasn't religious and he took he took a group of students from all over the world took them on to the harabayas and he showed them different places. He was talking about harab or the temple mount and I think in English he was talking he said the temple mount and the Muslim wack guard who's there with a group started listening he said you're not allowed to say temple mount and he went to one of the Israeli policeman who was present and the policeman said yes you have to stop saying temple mount because it's going to cause an international incident and so he said you know what he said from now on in the talk no more temple mount we're talking about the TM and so for the rest of the call he had a sense of humor also but he concluded urban rhyme by saying this total denial of a Jewish connection to the harabas only leads to one way which is it leads people to understand that this is genuine the Jewish connection is true I think we can mentally let's cross the road let's leave behind the uh the sifting project and I can encourage everyone to to go over there it's definitely it's a must stop to to see this and to experience this but let's leave this behind I just want to ask you a particular question and I think we could perhaps answer the question is why indeed is it we've spoken at the beginning of this episode why indeed is it that our dra that our generation feels so you know we can connect to many things people connect to all different things but tishab itself people feel that it's very hard to connect to what do you think lies at the bottom of this so >> I want to answer you with it with a story I think I heard the story from seal but I'm not not 100% sure so please if They're not accurate >> in the name of the listenership, >> right? So the the story goes like this that Levvenstein who was a tremendous sadic right we don't doubt his amuna right he was like his whole avoid was about it he his first that he heard he goes in and he spoke about amuna and on that he based his whole a lot of someone passes by the his office in the panovichi yeshiva and he hears a terrible like noise things falling and he he didn't understand what's going on. So he open up the door and he sees I might laugh on this but you have to understand try to understand the idea. He sees like tied like I don't know 20 together with a rope or something and like he he pulled it in one shot and it all came tumbling down. It sounds weird like what was doing there? So he Rapasel said that it's not one of the I think great balos said Raves had amuna in his head and Levvenstein had the mun in his hands. Levvenstein he read something about the tremendous noise that happened when the chariots of the Egyptians started stumbling upon themselves in the on the bottom of the sea because of the mud that was created by the amu and and with the water and all that. And he said I wanted to feel it in my bones. I wanted to feel it. So you see Ra Kas Levin who's such a great sad he realized that in order to feel you have to work on it and we can't expect to feel without working on ourselves. I think that in a nutshell is I feel the answer to your question. I think you're right and it's very interesting that the key thing to work on it because I think this refrain literally hear it. We hear this thing we want to want. You ever heard this? You know, we want to want we want to want the basic mikdash. We don't want the bam mdash. But at least we should want to want. And and and this has been the topic of of how many tishabov speeches how many things over the last 20 30 years. We unfortunately our daughter doesn't want but at least at least we want to want that's already a mad trigger. That's what we tell ourselves. But the way of thinking about this as you say is that perhaps we simply don't work on it right none of us would dream of turning up on Russashana and saying you know it's a terrible thing we're not connecting with Russasha and we understand why because if you do take that little seriously the more you do the more you invest yourself in it rash comes along then then your kipper or your kipper finally you know there's a famous famous story about guy comes across the border and he wants to smuggle across you know some in the tarist empire wants to smuggle across uh some cigarettes or whatever it is to to he pays the peasant to take him across. And as they approach, you know, 3 miles away from the border, the peasant notices that the smuggler is uh who he doesn't know is the smuggler, he notices the smuggler is very very nervous. So as they approach the border, the peasant starts shaking. And then what happens is as they come closer, the horse picks up that the fact that the peasant is shaking because the smuggler is shaking and the horse starts starts misbehaving as well. That's how it is. It's famous uh thing that some people do you know the be beginning of doing but most we don't shake but some people uh you know start shaking when Rashan approaches it filters down and and he says we shouldn't be like a horse like with horse approaches we're the last ones to pick up on it but that's how that you know that's how it is the whether with the horse or with the or the tadikim or whatever we are eventually rashashana filters down but we don't do we have that same avoida We literally cannot. Why are we having the same conversation every year? We don't want do we want to want because we're not Isaac. We're not busy. We're not we're not >> The big mistake is >> dealing with the whole year. >> I think that's the mistake. The mistake is we're we shouldn't be dealing with the in the whole year. I don't think it's I don't think that what that's what he had in mind. What we they had in mind is we don't know what we're missing. Meaning we don't deal about mik we don't learn about mikdash. We don't learn that what what's written in kazal. We don't know how the migdash looked. If you would ask someone a random person on from street and say can you describe to me you would come up to the what would you see in front of you? I think the majority wouldn't have an answer. We don't know how about the splendor of the bdus aside from the of the bd which is another lever. We don't know how big it was. So if someone would invest time during the year of studying about the ba migdash at least he will have a feeling of what we're missing you know if you go to brisk the busy with kchim right and that was who 100 years ago with this kochim put with I think it was the original one the original kim put the the idea the idea yeah the emphasis back on kchim it wasn't on the map till then and that was something that we can feel but I think reframe we have an honored guest or feature of this episode due to the fact as uh is has been Cook who Yunu and I've I've written a book about as I've I'm sorry if there is a bit of oversaturation of Cook on this podcast but here goes again because when I was writing this book I came across a scene and a video which was extremely extremely moving and took place a scene that took place across the road actually from the sifting project because I don't remember what this road is that goes a steep road that goes down to where the sifting project is but it's but it's a road out of your and there must be about eight or nine years ago. There was the following scene there was got out of the car and he was old and ill by then and he was surrounded by a few family members and they had a chair and he sat overlooking the mock mdash and he sat there crying. He sat there absolutely crying and he sat there singing and it's an incredible clip to see this because had one of his perhaps his anthem was a niggan that I think he'd learned from if I'm not mistaken who's who was uh before >> who's a famous >> right and I think that had come from the bal from before the war if I maybe it was certainly for the bal Mus before the war whether it was from or not I don't But the song became the anthem of it was a song of absolute longing for the words and the quotes of you will see clearly when when Hashem returns and and he had this song and he would sing it with great longing. He would in his yeshiva and etc. People who know him had this who it was a real um musa tune. It's not a popular tune. It's not a tune that is going to get you but it's a tune of great longing. It's incredible to see the video. He broke down in tears. Absolutely in tears. And this is the point we were saying before. When you live with the Baham Mikdash, then you're able to be Mr. Abel for the Ba Mikdash. And he had this, if I'm not mistaken, what happened indeed. The way he looked at it was incredible. Cook lived with this visceral feeling of avail. said that because he lived with the feeling that as a kayen he would be serving the bam mikdosh and many of his his talum there from his sh said it's from dafomish which went on for years there was his main shapomi properly barabim and he would and he said that his bikus in the seda avoid of the cole was incredible he would get himself so much into the feeling the mode of the cole that when as as the foripa he would say he'd come back and he would look utterly spent. He would be finished and he'd say to his wife, "I've just come back from the BA mikdash. Come back from the bis mikdash." But I just want to say that that on pes for example, this was someone who many people don't say and re I'd love I'd love to bring back this m actually it's an incredible mic that after the seda amir you say do you say that on >> you say that? Well, I the truth is I know I think the first time I ever said it was this year because it's not a lot of people don't say it. They're very busy on >> I don't remember saying it when very beautiful thing and that gets back to this point over here that you've got that people have to that connecting you can't connect to if you don't connect to the actual any opportunity to say and he would say the pes and his son remembers a few years ago he came back one of 10 years ago he came back and he said he said I thought that this year will be for real and just to finish off and I know we're talking about one person over here but I think it could be malamadas such that the way to feel a little bit of connection is through this way of connecting through through through the avoidance as you say visualizing the bd to feel it is one more story from in which he one of the times in which you know as happens every so often the Arabs on top this stone the kosel below they throw stones and obviously the police have to clear the plaza before They storm up at the Harabas to clear that as well. And he came back and afterwards or whenever he was afterwards he put one of the stones and thrown of the Harabas into his pocket. And his son asked him why did he do it? And he says he says the Posel says at the time throw stones of time to gather them in. He says and this is such an unbelievable typical of in that longing for the Bikdash in which he said he said that these stones were thrown with hatred and they will I'm collecting from a time when these very stones are going to be part of the binanikdash. >> Beautiful. Thank you Abdalia. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for listening to behind the times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time.