Eps. 13 Let's Talk Middle School (Feat. Rabbi Yaakov Schwartz and Rabbi Yaakov Feldman)

I think the Bas Mitzvah rule is a little bit disingenuous personally, clawlistic. It's the rule is officially made to avoid competition. I don't think that's the reason for the rule cuz then why don't Bar Mitzvahs have the same rule? Right? I think the real reason to make the rule Yeshiva's rules are is cuz Yeshivas don't believe in the formality of Bas Mitzvah Seudas. Maybe cuz of the, you know, the inroads of feminism. >> Nowhere in a child's life, in a person's life do they have such ex potential growth as they do during these years. That's not just true physically. That's true spiritually and much nicer wise. >> If you have a healthy good rebbe who's following a decent curriculum, which was coming out more and more, people aren't complaining. They got They complain when you get someone who's crazy, who reacts to chutzpah in unpredictable ways, who screams at kids. That's where you get the parents upset. >> I would say that the Yeshivas here in Lakewood have really stepped it up when it comes to taking the secular studies more seriously and realizing that we can't just wing it like it used to be. >> I believe, this may be contrary to what people think, I believe that there's less chutzpah now than there was when I was growing up. I really believe that. I know it's contrary to what other people think. >> Welcome to the Learning Curve Podcast brought to you by Mishpacha Magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing [music] and challenging world. >> So let's tackle the important issues facing families today. >> I'm Rabbi Yisroel Garfield, Menahel of Yeshiva Torah Vodaath in Houston, and I love talking about chinuch. >> I'm Rabbi Ari Schonfeld, Menahel of Yeshiva Ketana of Manhattan, Rosh Mesivta of Beis Shifra of Manhattan, director of Camp Kayitz. I also love talking chinuch and of [music] course a little bit of fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. >> Learning Curve listeners, we are excited to announce the newest release, Stories Told by Rav Kalman Krohn, Volume 5. The reviews on this series have been fantastic, and many thousands have been flying off the shelves. Kids and adults absolutely drink up Rav Kalman's unique blend of exciting, hair-raising stories, overflowing and alive with Torah values and Yiras Shamayim from the >> farm publication. >> Now, if you're looking to elevate your family's reading material, you have to check out the incredible Emunah and Bitachon lineup from Israel Bookshop. A brand new release, fresh off the press, is Living a Life with Bitachon by Rabbi Yitzchak Ze'ev Golombek. Rabbi Golombek is well-known for his famous hotline by the same name, A Life with Bitachon. 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And master your mindset with Rav Yechiel Perr's Yitzal series on the Alter of Novardok's Madregas Ha'Adam, Mind over Man, exploring Tikun Ha'Middos, and Faith over Fear, elucidating and expounding the radical Novardok approach to bitachon. Head to your local Judaica store or visit Israelbookshop.com today to experience this life-changing seforim and more. Brusim haba'im and welcome back to another episode of The Learning Curve. As [snorts] the summer months slowly dawn upon us, we're in a new may svera. And Rabbi Garfield, you know, I considered a zchus to do what we do. We get to broach interesting topics, speak to a, you know, real array of people members in klal Yisrael. You know, maybe we're doing something right cuz I feel like every episode we do, oh, we touched a chord. We did the rebbe, we touched a chord. You know, when we did it with salaries, that was a big thing. I don't know, I feel like we're doing something right. We discussed our last episode with Rabbi Yossi Eisenbach shlita from KMH and the rav of many of the thank you Hashem baalei batim. A lot of strong reaction, but again, we always say this, right? We're here to start the conversation, not end it. >> Right. Right. It's funny with that last interview, I think a lot of people are very curious. The people who are not part of the inner circle of the what's it called? The uh >> KMH, Kollel Mevakshei Hashem. >> Mevakshei Hashem, right. If you're not part of the Mevakshei Hashem network, you wonder who's behind it, what are they thinking? And so I think we sort of gave people a glimpse behind the curtain. Some people thought, you know, we should have been more aggressive and push certain things a little more, but I think like we started the conversation, like you said. I mean, there's a lot to it and >> Right. >> but you got to hear a perspective. >> I think it's funny that when we went off air after last day, after last interview, I think we both went maybe ish lafishi tase. That you are the the philosopher, the visionary, the Socrates of the relationship. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> You were mesmerized by the Torah shabai. >> Yeah. >> Right? The synthesis, the unification of Torah, the different strength. You were like like like a kid in a candy shop. And I was a little more, I want to say stumped. >> Now what? >> Yeah, a little bit now what? You know, how is this going to help me get up in the morning for Shachris? Is this going to help my Shmiras Shabbos, midos, my relationship with my children, my wife? Like and you know, it was harder for me to plug in the beauty and the depth of that. Maybe that's I'm not Maybe this this strand of Torah, it was hard for me to plug that in on a practical level. I listened to it a few times since then. It's gotten a little less hard. It's an inside or maybe a window, a vista into a an area of Torah that's new to me. >> You know what you're reminding me? When I came back from Eretz Yisrael, I learned by Rav Tzvi Kushelevsky for 4 years. He's a big Rosh Yeshiva, as you know. And his shiur is very mesudar. So like very clear. He usually starts with a question, three rayas, you know, whatever. >> Right. >> And then I came through a another shiur in Baltimore and the shiur I just couldn't connect to it. Like I didn't know what the whatever what the maggid shiur was trying to say. And like it And I went through Rav Moshe Neuberger who was the Rosh Kollel, Zechuso Yagen Aleinu, and I talked to him about it and he said and it took me a while and I'm still not there yet, but he said you have to know the difference between like an essay of like an an an argumentative essay versus poetry. And like not every shiur is clearly articulated like ABC. There are people who give shiur in poetry, a a dabble of this, a machshava of that, and you have to create the take it home part, you know? >> Beautiful. >> But to me But when you're in the world of trying to use that in a practical way to improve lives, the poetry can sometimes get lost. That's all. >> All right. But that was last. >> 100%. >> All right. So we have two audios to play and then the big question with the music prompter. >> That's right. >> So the first audio is I mean, you go first and that you The first audio is for you. The second audio is for me. Press the button, Rabbi, whenever you would like. >> Okay, here we go. >> Okay, so here is my question. Um I think it has become pretty standard in many, many bas mitzvahs that they have rules regarding who the girls are allowed to invite to their bas mitzvah, sometimes rules about where the bas mitzvah is, things like that. Um if my daughter gets invited to a bas mitzvah that is ignoring these rules, is it wrong to allow her to go? And it could be I mean it's it's it's a it's it's a bas mitzvah that might hashkafically be appropriate or hashkafically is in line with what I am okay with, but the bottom line is it's ignoring the school rules. Can I send my daughter to such a party? >> All right, this is not a Houston problem. Baruch Hashem, we don't have any rules outside of school. >> And it's not a base tip problem, Manhattan problem. >> Cuz we don't cuz we don't have sixth graders yet. >> I My answer I have I have fifth graders. >> Yes, my answer is two question two words. A two-word answer, ready? >> It depends. >> No? >> No. That's a good one. Be normal. Meaning like this, you shouldn't be the first one to violate the rule. First of all, I'm not sure if the rule is on the goer or the inviter. If the rule is you're not allowed to invite people, you don't violate that rule by going. You were invited. >> It's like makif and nikif, right? You're giving a haircut, who's the >> That's a loophole. That's a legal loophole. But I'll you know, going back to the that same thing, I would say like there are a lot of school rules that no one follows, and why the schools make them is a different conversation. But what I say is if everyone goes, you don't have to tell your daughter the Garfield family is a rule follower while all of her friends are partying away, no. But if no one really goes, you shouldn't be from the first to get up from the natural man I mean not of of breaking the rule. Those are my thoughts. >> Yeah, I also think that and this is just a parent talking, not every not all rules are created equal. The bas mitzvah rule is a rule that I struggle with. I have a daughter's bas bas mitzvah, we followed the school rules, made a shiyur and my I have another daughter >> Do all the girls have Connie? I believe so. Yeah, I think so. It's pretty much followed in Yeah. My daughter Khani's bat mitzvah is coming up you know in January we plan on following the rules. I think the bat mitzvah rule is a little bit disingenuous personally claliistic. It's the rule is officially made to avoid competition. I don't think that's the reason for the rule cuz then why don't bat mitzvahs have the same rule? Right? I think the real reason they make the rule yeshiva's rules are is cuz yeshivas don't believe in the formality of bat mitzvah sudas maybe because of the you know the inroads of feminism. I think it's something that yeshivas are very uncomfortable with the bat mitzvah shebang and I think that's the aside of the rule. I don't think the aside of the rule is competition cuz then I don't understand why bat mitzvahs would be any different. >> What are some rules about bat mitzvahs that are different? >> those are usually Yeah, but those rules are much not the same as bat mitzvahs in in a lot of communities. And so my point is therefore like I I the spirit of the rule to me is really like eh eh and like so therefore if my daughter is invited to a bat mitzvah and she's not going to get in trouble as you said, right? If she's going to get in trouble then it's just a practical thing. Now the I think the other just the niku that the answer is what do you tell your daughter? You're letting your daughter break the school rules. As a teacher as a mother my daughter has to wear certain level socks because of the school rules. She can't wear this type of pony cuz of a school rule. She's not allowed to wear nail polish cuz of a school rule. Not a makeup school rule and now you tell me oh this school rule Michal this one you know Spritzer this we could break. That's the kasha. I don't think the mother I think the mother is totally fine breaking the school rule. She's upset at the school rule maybe. What does she tell her 12-year-old? >> I hear. I mean I think again if everyone's breaking it and it's like you know what's the word dash dash tachas what's the shprach um >> dash back kava >> Yeah, whatever. It's like done you know it's a regularly done thing. Then I think you don't need to you know, you say, "Yeah, it's obviously a rule the school doesn't care about." You know? No one does it. >> You're not You're not nervous about creating about this hypocrisy and creating this mixed messaging. >> love it, but the alternative of saying you're staying home with all of her friends are going to the thing that's in the side and that's not fair to your kid. You're you know, I think that option is not good. >> And if you got for a second we're going to go out to find the archives of the learning curve and find that you are a little bit contradicting yourself if you once had a debate. >> I said ask a Rav, remember? You were like >> We had a conversation about right going on family vacations against school rules. Yeah. And right, you wanted to go to the Rav and you want you were upset about changing school rules. Like you're being you're a Rav all of a sudden. A little bit of a renegade. >> Go back. >> I think not all rules are created equal. That was I think I said that then. I stand up by that now. And that sounds very slippery, but all right. The next one is for me. >> Yeah. >> Dear Learning Curve podcast, thank you so much for your amazing and consistent, entertaining, and educational content. I had a question for the Hashiva ballet half podcast. My son, who's in about seventh grade, is obsessed with a very well-known rabbinic figure that many people are machshiv, but does not lie align with me or my family's hashkafa at all, and I feel very strongly about. How should I navigate this with my son? Thank you very much. >> So, why don't you start Rav Shmuel Shofel, since this is your by listing the potential rabbinic personalities that you think he might be referring to? Go. >> Oh, I feel like this was done to like Oh my gosh. See, this is the beauty of having this podcast produced by Mishpacha because it's edited. I don't think they've ever I don't think Mishpacha magazine has ever edited up you know contents from us, baruch Hashem. >> [laughter] >> But, okay, I have to gather myself. I don't know of any rabbinic figure that I consider controversial, so I have a hard time relating, so this is to me all just theoretical. This is a hard sugia. And I think I you might know where I'm going to go with this, Rabbi Garfield. And that is black and white versus gray. It was I was honored to speak at the hotel over Pesach. And it was on a panel different as in it me and Nissan Black and someone else about the view of the world through different seg- eyes of certain segments of klal Yisrael. Nissan Black spoke about geirim, was fascinating, and someone spoke about secular Jews and kiruv, and I spoke about middle school children. And I did my black and white speech. How kids don't understand nuance. And they see the world in black and white. Mesivta is maybe that turnover, and that's where these things start happening. The mind is able to develop and so on, but a seventh grader, see, this is the challenge of a seventh grader. Seventh graders in their minds have the if you're a talmid chacham, then you're chashuv. And especially if you're a rosh yeshiva, and especially if you're respected by thousands of people, right. >> Right. >> You are a talmid chacham. They don't have the nuance of elu v'elu divrei Elokim chaim, or I think your hashkafos are incorrect, and my rebbe holds that you're krum. My rabbanim hold that's the wrong hashkafa. They don't have that I don't think generally they have the ability to be nuanced. And so therefore, when your son comes home and says over that he loves a certain per- an I know per- person that he's considered to be an adam chashuv, and you think this person is just wrong and not someone that you respect, you have to be very careful. I don't think that it's worth it. I'll say it like this. I don't think it's worth it for you to bash. I'm going to make the following assumption. The person that he is talking about is someone that is respected by many. No, no, I didn't find this or you know, random, you know, it's a person that is respected by many that you think is not a person that should be respected, right? You feel very strong about it. I think that to a seventh grader it's it's it's not what it's too risky. I think it's very hard for him to hear that nach. I don't agree with his hashkafos on Eretz Yisrael. I don't agree with his hashkafos on on, you know, on on other inyanim, the way he deals with people. I don't think he's a midos. I don't all of those type of things that you might think make him treif or not a person to follow, I think your son will be too confused. But my rebbi, what are you talking about? But my rebbi in yeshiva said over an amazing hashgacha story about him. I want to I got a little bit controversial, right? When Reb Ashken was freed from jail, I was a rebbi in yeshiva, right? Now, my personal hashgacha from my rebbeim is that it's a complicated sugia. That's my personal hashgacha from my rebbeim. That klal Yisrael celebrating, I know this is going to maybe Mishpacha will cut it. I hope not. That it's complicated. That it's complex. That's my personal hashgacha as a rebbi. >> for sure it would get cut. >> I will say that that as a rebbi, and I was a rebbi, I remember when it happened, the other rebbeim in yeshiva were taking, I think which was probably the more accepted approach, that it was an unadulterated simcha. It was a simcha of epic proportions to be celebrated by all bar none, and therefore it was going on in yeshivas that way. It was being celebrated that way in yeshiva. And I did not feel to my talmidim, even to my own young children, that it would behoove me to have a nuanced conversation about the complexities of the sugia that I felt were complex. I I I you know, I think that's a fair mashal. Is that a fair mashal? >> Yeah. The add, I think you're I think you're I think I might agree with you in a strange turn of events. >> No, you're black and white chinuch you agree with me on? >> This case, I I it's a hard it's hard to say He's not a But what I would do is to whatever extent of shkuf is that you find objectionable, find opportunities to address them without naming you know, the person. Meaning if that person has that shkuf, you said Eretz Yisrael. So, let's say they're pro-Eretz Yisrael, right? They're pro-Eretz Yisrael. Yeah. And you But you feel that Zionism is dangerous or something. So, then throw that into your, you know, be more conscious about mentioning that without stating directly. You know. >> I I I would just add that that I grew up very, you know, my father and I used to argue a lot when I was in my Fallsburg days, right? I was in I was my kids on the days fire. And my father, who's much more balanced than me, and he's a Lakewood musmach. My father and me And my point is, I don't want to say I came around, but I think today I'm very much in >> More nuanced, perhaps? >> A more nuanced approach. And what I mean, I wouldn't be so afraid I think when your son's a mesifta, this is a very different story. And that's a big challenge in mesiftas that certain rebbeim in certain mesiftas say things. Your son comes home from a mesifta saying things, and you want to What do you do? But he's my son's rebbe. I This question was about elementary school, so therefore I'm not answering the mesifta question, which I had don't have an answer for. It's a choice you make when you send your son to certain yeshivas. But your son was in seventh grade, he'll get the nuance. He'll get it. You know, your son mesifta you'll have a long relationship with your child. You'll be able to get it in, but I think at seventh grade when he first has to learn chashivus haTorah and wants to be a talmid chacham and rebbeim, this is the This rosh yeshiva represents a little bit like the concept and the bigness of what it means to be a rosh yeshiva. I wouldn't get caught up on the details. Your son will grow up. What do you mean, my >> beautiful Okay, I agree. >> All right. >> All right. Now, we're going to go to our spotlight guest. It's really great to bring a guest on that I've known for so long and have such a great relationship with. Rabbi Yaakov Schwartz is the menahel of TA and Talmudical Academy. I know it has a few different names. The Chofetz Chaim Talmudical Academy >> Do you have >> of Baltimore. Is that right? It's been only been around for like 100 years. Get the name right. >> 108. >> 108. Oh my. And the Rabbi Schwartz has been the menahel of the middle school for 102 of those years. Approximately. Over 30 years. And so when we're talking about the question we're going to discuss, which is the behavior in middle school, not only can you talk about what you're dealing with now, but you have the perspective to contrast it and trends and different things. So we wanted to bring someone in who's seen the full spectrum over time. And I know you also worked in camp. That's where I first met you. You were the head counselor at camp for a while back in the day. >> Which camp? >> Camp Ramah, okay. >> The original one. The one that exists today as wonderful as it is a different Anyway, so the way we're going to do this is I'm going to ask you a question. And then we're going to ask you to start by responding to it and we'll see where the conversation goes. The question's a little long, so stick with me. Dear TLC, my boys are normal, fun, rambunctious boys, and we try very hard to instill good middos in our kids by teaching and modeling. Our oldest is in sixth grade, and it feels like we see a digression as he gets older. It see It feels counterintuitive. Shouldn't he be Shouldn't he be outgrowing this? This year we've had so many calls from the school, the afternoon teachers, the principal. His behavior in class is disruptive, not respectful. It's just I know it's not him. It seems like the behaving kids are the outliers and not the misbehavers. So what should I do since talking about it with him and loss of privileges seems to be getting us nowhere. >> Well, first of all, I'm glad to hear that middle school children are the same everywhere. >> Right. Yeah, maybe this one second. Maybe this was a Baltimore parent. You don't know what this >> It could be, but doubtful. But when they wouldn't be complaining if they were in the >> Right. Right. >> Anyways, this is extremely typical. Can I share I just want to share something that I tell the parents every year when they come in for a middle school meeting. They come in with trepidation. The story actually took place about 25 years ago. A parent came in to meet about their son coming into middle school. This is actually before I used to meet with all the parents. They were coming in to meet with me because they were so nervous about middle school, everything they'd heard about middle school and middle school children. So, they came to my office with trepidation. I can tell you literally with trepidation. >> Right. >> What are we going to do? What are we going to do? Our son's coming to middle school. And this is what I told them and I say this every year and it's the emesis. I said, "The middle school years? Those are the most beautiful years of your child's life until 120." And they're like, "Huh? What are you talking about?" And I said, "Look at it like this. When your son comes in, he's 11, 10 or 11 years old. He's a young boy. By the time he goes through the 3 years of middle school, he's 13 or 14. He's a young man. Nowhere in a child's life, in a person's life, do they have such exponential growth as they do during these years. That's not just true physically, that's true spiritually and otherwise also. It's beautiful. The amount of growth that takes place. Of course, when growth takes place, things start popping out here and there. And that's why this questioner is having a great question, which is absolutely true. Our sons should be progressing and instead, they're acting worse, {quote} {unquote}. I basically I'm summarizing that. But that is actually normal. Because it's tremendous growth that a child doesn't even know what to do with. They're popping out just think of your child, you know, every 4 months you have to buy a new pair of pants for her cuz he keeps on out-stretching his pants, his shoes, everything, his clothing. That is absolutely true on a roof near level also. Hence, you're going to have issues. I don't care who the boy is. There's never been a middle schooler, quote unquote, that hasn't gone through some pains of growth. >> So, how does the parent know >> out in the end. >> So, basically you're saying is it's normal. Relax, right? >> It is normal. You have to deal with it. You can't ignore it. You don't want them going off the, you know, off the deep end. But even though it's normal, it must be dealt with. You must have structure for them. You must have boundaries for them. And you have to make sure that they're it's a balancing act. You If you want balance is always very difficult. You have a seesaw. If you want to sit on one end of the seesaw, the other end goes up. Sit on the other end, the other end goes up. How about if you want it to be balanced, normal? So, you have to get in the middle. I don't know if you've ever tried it. Have you ever tried going in the middle of a seesaw? It's like really difficult to balance. >> Rabbi Schwartz, Rabbi Rabbi Garfield said you've been in he taught almost 102 years, but I think it's more like 34 years. I think you said 30 of those years you've been in middle school menahel, right? All in TA of Baltimore or all in one place? >> Yes. I had I was in Atlanta before that for the first part of my chinuch career. But this basically has been here. I started out actually in ninth grade for 3 years, but after that I moved into the middle school. >> Is Is a not just yes cuz today I'm more of a foot spedic and is there can is there a definable qualitative difference between let's go back 20 years between the sixth or seventh grader in the year post 9/11 and the boy in 2026. Is it a different breed other than just saying it's five generations I'm talking about like like definable bullet points or by and large the same you say the same stick of challenges. >> I will tell you the same you say the same stick of challenges. But the challenges are much they're much different and they're much more difficult to be honest. But the challenge being challenged and the child being not sure how he's going to grow and where he's going that is exact same. The problem nowadays is they have many more outlets I'll call it or other ways they can turn that makes it more different. But the children are the same. >> I if I make the following statement true false somewhere in between I mean the more modern the school the better behaved the middle schoolers are. >> Incorrect. >> Modern versus Shivaish. >> Incorrect. >> Incorrect. Wow. Now I'm not going to ask where TA falls. I know there's TA Baltimore there's TI Baltimore there's Rabbi Shepherd's Yeshiva Baltimore. I'm not going to do that I'm going to stay way out of Baltimore politics. I think our listeners would view that as a massive Jewish. We'll get to maybe Houston and Manhattan in a minute. Ever Schwartz you don't see a correlation that not causation but a correlation the more modern Yeshiva's middle school kids are less foot spedic more are more tame are calmer are >> [laughter] >> better behaved than the more Yeshivaish right wing Haredi middle age students. I'm going to give you a chance to stand. >> They have different areas where I believe they're more challenged, and I won't go into that right now, but there are certain which you would, you know, say, "Oh, well, they're very chutzpadik." But, if you want to know about the middle school child, it's across the board. I've had teachers come in here, I'm going to talk about teachers coming here where we try to hire staff. They will tell us the pen molle, and they have nothing to do with Yeshivas or to I will teach high school. I will teach elementary school gladly. I will not touch middle school. And it has nothing to do with whether they're in a Yeshiva or a public school or anywhere else. It's a difficult age. Period. >> You're not answering my question. I've got for the how far how hard should I push back? >> Well, I would say like this, in our school, our mixed school in terms of Yeshivish levels, we have we take data. Every time a child is sent to the office, we have a Google Doc, we put it in, and whatever. So, we could see where, who, where, and when and what is going on. It's a very useful tool. I suggest it to everybody. If you know, cuz sometimes it'll be like one teacher that has like 60% of the referrals, and you could blame the kids, but, you know, that's an indicator of something. So, I would say, and I think we could agree that, you know, 80% or so of our referrals are in the afternoon in general studies. >> That is correct. >> Okay. So, that's where the cultural respect for general studies will play a big role. If it's a family that feels that general studies is a critical part of the child's life, so then the odds are that the child is going to also have that value, and it will spread into their behavior and decision-making in response to this foreigner. However, if it's a family that embraces the foreigner and the values general studies, and wants their kids to do well, they'll behave better. So, that's I think where Ari is getting is getting at in terms of a cultural issue that often is reflected in chutzpah in school. >> Okay, so that is a specific thing which I was referring to. That's an area where our boys definitely struggle more than in a Yeshiva or modern school. It's true. Children in general can concentrate and dedicate themselves to one thing very well. And when other things come around, they could do it less well. And by Yeshiva in Yeshiva, obviously want our top priority to be learning Torah, the mesorah of Torah, making getting them ready to go to mesivtas, etc., etc. That automatically, unfortunately, makes being in the morning kol I don't want to call it secondary, but it's can't be concentrated the exact same as the morning. And that's just the matias of being a human being. You can't concentrate on a lot of different things the exact same way for a long time. So, for our Yeshiva, and I'm sure it's true in other Yeshivas and Yeshiva and others, we want to give the best structured program we can in the afternoon. Do the boys treat it the same as they do the morning? No, unfortunately not. We would like to we do they do, you know, we try to get the better hearts, we work on that hard, and we do a pretty good job, but I cannot tell you it's the exact same. So, to your point, uh there are areas that are more challenging for them, but I don't say that's because modern school kids are more respectable and Yeshiva schools they're less respectable. >> All right, here's the All right, one second, Rabbi Schonfeld, hold on. Let's say you had a magic show in a school, okay? Just picture it. You have a magic show, you brought in a magician, he's a little corny, he's not like he's not perfect. He's good, but he's not perfect. You don't think a more Yeshivish chevre will eat him alive much faster than the modern chevre would? >> Again, you're talking about kol >> the jokes and the like mocking leitzanus, they kill the guy. Nothing to do with respect of general studies, no? >> There there are and I don't want to get into different areas, but there are cultural differences between the way Yeshivas approached, schools approached in those two camps. I don't want I'm not going into what they may be challenged with because they would be challenged in certain areas. I don't want to talk about that. But we are definitely challenged. I'm not >> The learning curve is a hard-hitting program, Rabbi Schwartz. >> We have challenges. Yes, we have challenges. As you have challenges, as in but other >> I want I'm asking the other way. How come you think your Yeshiva is so much better but like it's almost what could we say to that parent? Like speak for myself, my middle school behavior is fine. I'm not saying there are more I think everything you set up at Schwartz is beautifully accepted about the challenges, the ruchnius, the growth, the growing, therefore the the more chutzpah, all of that. And there are teachers that won't touch middle school. Agreed. I was eighth grade rebbe, I love middle school. But we have a wonderful middle school and a wonderful like this parent who's writing this question is not in my school. And I don't know think it's in in Houston and I don't think it's in TA. So maybe I'm wrong. I don't think by and large it's in TA. I think it's in the more Yeshivish circles. So what can you tell that parent who's like a Rebbi Schwartz with all maybe I should switch my kid to TA. But Rabbi Schwartz, you know, my son comes home and my son all of a sudden he's being chutzpah that he never had, wants to cut class in the afternoon, he can't get teachers, there's no one home, it's chaos and that's dripping down to my son. >> Okay, let me stop you there. >> So >> I what I want to say is we're changing the question from about you as a menahel of TA and changing it to you as a mechanich with experience who would speak to someone not a TA per se, but in a place that might be more poorly executed in the afternoon. >> Okay. >> Right. >> Okay, so you're going to again like you're saying, you're going to a different problem. I'm not saying we don't have issues in afternoon here also. I understand that very well. And we go through teachers and I I I understand all that. With that being said, it's incumbent upon the Yeshiva, if they want to have an English program and what they call program, to put into motion different types of programs for the children, which I'm sure a lot of them do, which will number one give them guidelines, number two be, you know, give incentives, three, delineate exceptionally well what your expectations are, realistic expectations. And make sure you have, which is the hardest part, make sure you have the staff that's able to deliver on that. And I'm thinking the more Yeshiva schools, what I'm saying is they really take people who are are rabbeim quality type of people and they try to put them into the classroom in the afternoon, which is ultimately the answer to the problem that you're bringing up. Ultimately, what should really happen is that our system, as long as we want to have a limudei chol in our schools, needs to train a rabbeim for the afternoon. They should be treated like rabbeim, they should be paid like rabbeim, that's good or bad, but they should be paid same as a rebbe. They should be trained to give over that miksoa of what the school wants, because the children ultimately will have more respect for them because they are benei Torah. >> So so Rabbi Schwartz, I'm so happy you said that. >> That's a good point. >> Because I 100% disagree strongly. >> Good. So >> Well, I want to explain. I ran a panel at the Torah Umesora convention this year on general studies principals. Around 25 general studies principals and I co-moderated the event and I actually found it funny. >> What? >> I'm sorry, I missed it. >> And as I I started out by saying I find it odd if anyone would see my general studies report card in middle school and then here I am moderating the general studies panel. It was all principals. And this came up that in the more Yeshivish places getting rabbaim is seems to be the answer to all this. And on the one hand, 100% when you get a rebbe as you said, you know, of course not 100% disagree. When you get a rebbe the chutzpah basically disappears. If you have a competent rebbe who's in the afternoon and is a and is good at what he does, then he can manage a classroom. To me, now maybe you're going to tell me, you know, I'm just unrealistic. Maybe. To me, when you hire a rebbe to teach, I'm talking I'm talking generally. Science, math, history, ELA. Fourth grade glues and about this. We had an argument about this. Those rabbaim don't love George Washington and the you know, and the Bill of Rights. They don't love the laboratory experiments. Sometimes, but you know, you'll have a very rare rebbe that is a you know, into science and into ELA. They need the money and therefore they work in the afternoon. They're in education, so it's something that they're comfortable doing. You're get you're doubling down on the message that this is something that is just not important. It's impossible to have a kid >> You are correct. >> a kid you know, when we have I will tell you when our teachers that are the best teachers in my school are the teachers that have passion for their for what they're teaching. They love science and math and history. And when we have the you know, when they make the kids have a dress up our fourth grade teacher in a wax museum and each kid makes a different character from history. They live it lahavdil like our rabbaim live Torah. I'm not saying to that degree, but they love it and that is what gives over to the kids the ability to succeed and to want it. When you have an English staff of rebbeim, you might you're lowering your ceiling. Then maybe that's enough. And I know that in a lot in Lakewood, it's basically they gave up the battle of trying to find qualified It's very hard to find. And maybe culturally that divide is just too strong. It's just to me such a chaval that you're paying tuition and you're for an education that is just by definition subpar. Rabbi Goffman, am I wrong? Am I wrong? >> No, you're not wrong, but you're living 40 years ago or 50 years ago. >> I'm living 40 years ago. >> It doesn't mean >> Oh. >> That's going to be the sound bite to remember. >> You First of all, you don't have You can find some good teachers sometimes, but there are not enough people out there in your category, what you're talking about, to be able to come into our yeshivas to teach. They don't exist. The Whatever's going on outside in the outside world, it just doesn't stem, as you pointed out, does not stem with our hashkafahs, with what we want for the children, who we want them to be exposed to, etc. It's It's beautiful and it's the right idea. And I agree with you 100% 40 years ago. But they don't exist now. >> If it doesn't exist If it doesn't exist, then the parents have to realize that their expectations of general studies education has to change. You The parent that When I was a kid, we did book reports, and how come there's no homework? And No, we can't find quality teachers that fit our culture. >> think they're complaining about that. They're complaining about psychopaths teaching. But if you have a healthy, good rebbe who's following a decent curriculum, which was coming out more and more, people aren't complaining. They got They complain when you get someone who's crazy, who reacts to chutzpah in unpredictable ways, who screams at kids. That's where you get the parents upset. >> No, they're complaining that the hallways are chaotic and the kids are running amok. And I'm saying the rebbeim might suck. >> in my people cuz they do not have rebbe in my people. >> had all rebbe in them, they wouldn't have that. Cuz they'd be in the classroom with normal people. >> So is that the answer? So is that the answer that in Montsey and Brooklyn and in Lakewood just hire a rebbe in and everything's great? >> It can't just be rebbe in them. It can't just be a bent over teaching. We have to as a community, we have to embrace these people as rebbe in It happens to be the rebbe who's teaching math, but he's a rebbe. >> We could call them whole rebbe. We have a rebbe in the whole room. But Yeah, that's a rebbe too. Well, I And calling them rebbe in You tell me that we should be that the same Whoa. Calling our social studies teacher should be our rebbe in social studies? >> Well, we do have rebbe in When a rebbe teaches, what do you call him? >> I mean, not a We're not a total Amada podcast, but this sounds like total Amada, right? >> No, it's not total Amada. It's If you want your children to learn the disciplines of math and English and This is what we have to do. We're not in the >> need a rebbe? Why can't I have a Why can't I have a rabbi that you respect? Why do you need a rebbe? The word rebbe you just Ooh. That gives me the heebie-jeebies. >> Okay, you want to call him a rabbi, call him a rabbi. It has to be the children have to understand who they're dealing with is not with what to make of it. You know, you Whatever it is. You tell them to respect as a person. >> I had a parent who called me recently who was in a yeshiva and was complaining to me about the middle school in their son's yeshiva and they want to pull their younger kids out of the yeshiva and I said to the parent that you know the yeshiva should kid is fire. And fire warms and and fire also burns. And I want to explain. The reason why your own son in the morning is more excited maybe for chocolate tire ball pen eighth grade and wants to wants his rebbe to say over a time, right? And wants his ready to do extra this is because of that Yeshiva should kid who's who comes from a home in which that's stressed more and therefore there is a warmth and a fire in learning that Yeshiva should kid has that trickles down trickle down economics trickle down Yeshiva should to your kid. On the other hand the reality is that the Yeshiva should families do not have at all the same and the same value for secular education and not just college in general for general studies most of them go to obviously like in Lakewood like in Lakewood right you have to realize in Lakewood 98% of don't have general studies. Correct. >> So that Yeshiva should kid in in the afternoon doesn't care and shouldn't care. I would just in my Yeshiva and you should be Manhattan our challenges the boys we have a lot of boys in all the in Manhattan sent our superstar kids wonderful boys as a culture is fascinating their cultured and they do but they don't have general studies in in so our boys that is our quote unquote the kid when he gets to middle school he gets a little smart and he says himself hey well why do I care about algebra one my gosh right so that is a byproduct of you being in a more of a right wing environment is your mornings will be more and your space and your and right and your kids going to want to buy a and he's going to care less about math. >> That's what you want. You want we want we want we want to be we want to be excited about the learning. >> But then but then also you have to accept as a parent the consequence of that is that in the afternoon he's going to care less about math you know generally speaking and care less about and you know there's also the cultural alluded to in the beginning very smoothly the cultural relationship between the Israel and you know, I have a teacher in my school who has an Indian accent. She's one of the best teachers to have in school. She's wonderful. I can't imagine that would fly. >> You can't have a woman teacher. >> They will not have women teachers in the school. >> Forget India. They won't have a woman teacher. >> Let's say she was a man. Let's say she was a man. It wouldn't fly. >> It wouldn't fly because of the way she sounds. >> And And too foreign? >> And she We're talking about him places that that don't have got him. >> Could be. >> the teacher and they respect what they're doing and it's a kind of the way the teacher comes in presents themselves then they will gain the respect of the >> You have it all the time. >> Does CA have non-Jewish teachers? Do you have non-Jewish teachers? >> Yes, we do. But it's harder and harder to find them. And we try to have We really try to have from teachers. But it's not always possible. We always will go to the quality. We always try to get to the quality because ultimately, you don't want chaos in your hallways. We don't want chaos in our hallways. It's terrible. It's the It's that opposite of what we want from our children. For have Derek Hertz. >> But So, Rabbi Schwartz, as we sort of you know, we discussed a lot about the schools. >> We hacked it up. Right. Now, let's get tacos. >> talking about schools, you know? And all the people running listening are not running a school, you know? Or some of them are not running a school. Most of them are just parents who have kids. So, what advice would you have going back to the question as we sort of get towards the end of the interview? So, what advice would you tell a parent who has a kid in middle school in a more Yeshiva place where the standards are low and they see their kid They're getting calls, "Your kid is acting up." Like, what would a parent What advice would you have to a parent? You know, she's saying he or she is saying that the privileges loss of privileges doesn't seem to be working. Would you give them What advice would you have for them other than like, "Yeah, it's locker." >> Okay, so parents need to set up with their children. They have to have a very open dialogue with them. It's not the end of the world if their child gets in trouble. They have to have patience. One of the most important things in middle school age is savlanut. Savlanut, having patience with the your children because they are testing, they are growing, they're they they really don't even feel they don't not in control themselves many times. So, you need to have a lot of savlanut with them. You need to talk to them. And we need to say you may have to say it 50 times. This is our expectations of you. This is what our family holds important. This is what we expect you to do in school. And tomorrow you might do the same thing. And you got to call them back in. And don't It's not even about the punishment or what are we going to do to him. You know, it's about consistency of the message you want to give to them. And I agree with Rabbi Schomberg that parents that give up on it and then expect the school to have a perfect program even though they could care less about it. It's not going to work. The parents have to have values themselves that they give over to their children. And they're going to get in trouble sometimes. But we're going to talk to them. This is who we are. This is our family. This is what we expect from you. And we understand there might be some people doing that. But you have to repeat the message and even pre-record the message before they get into middle school. But this is what a parent has to do. And then they will be much more successful and a lot less frustrated. >> Yeah, I think our parents, I mean all of us, we don't think through the importance of that message. Like we think general studies, okay, who cares? But kids can't They need to hear from us that we do care even though we do and we talk I do care. We just don't think of it in that way to articulate But like the reality is that all the parents care that their kid behave, that they spend their time well, that they don't be chutzpadik. They wouldn't mind if they learn some math or English. I'm sure they're, you know, they all That is our value. >> They need it. They need it. >> Right. >> By the Yeshiva, the Yeshiva's, what do you think they're doing? I know somebody that became a principal in the Yeshiva. Yeshiva. They begged him to put in a good program cuz they need math and English. They need the children to be functional. And they want them to be functional. So they brought in this principal, Ben Torah, but not a Yeshiva person, to set up their program that they be able to have good math and good English. And he spent years doing it and they did a pretty good job. But believe me, that is probably even harder than what we would call our Yeshiva's. But because they had to. It's important to us and it's important to our community >> I would I would just add I would just add that I think as a parent you have to really figure out and do a little bit of detective search. Is this an issue that my son or daughter, usually son, not daughter, usually son, daughter is also, but my child, is this an issue that my son is having because he's an adolescent and he's a budding teenager and then you know, I have to take a one approach or is the environment that he's in really not conducive? And I think that you see if you know what I mean, there are plenty of very large Yeshiva's that have a struggle in middle school and as a parent of a If I was a parent of a very large Yeshiva and I really knew that this Yeshiva is not going to solve it. There's just too many big things going on. I would be aggressive in trying to create my own, whether it's pulling him out for this period, like like be very proactive. Don't just allow your son to sit through 3 years of middle school if you think it's not being successful. Pull him out of this, pull him out of that, fight like the Yeshiva's are not going to fix it for you unless you fix it yourself. So, I'm saying it's almost like Sweden. If it's just your son is going through a typical adolescent struggle, then I think Schwartz, your point is spot-on. I also think that sometimes you have to like take a step back. Is this my son or is this his class? And if it's his class, I think parents should realize that they're the ones that are going to have to lead to try to get, you know, things fixed. >> I had in one point about the middle school a little bit to your point here, and you alluded to this. Eighth grade is going to be the end of the adolescent education in mathematics, English, science, and social studies for most of these kids. Because most of the Mesivtas, as you're pointing out in Lakewood, almost 100% not, but even the Mesivtas that have English, it's, you know, our children, I just know, go way beyond. They're well prepared, and they're doing They have done more through eighth grade than a lot of Mesivtas are doing in their Mesivta years. So, it's important for the parent also to take this time seriously, cuz it will be probably the last time they'll have formal education in this way until they want to move to the next level, whatever that might be. >> All right, Rabbi Schwartz, thank you so much. It's always great to spend time together, and we really appreciate you coming on and talking to us about your thoughts. >> Great seeing you. Nice meeting you, Rabbi Schonfeld. >> It is now our pleasure to welcome to the Learning Curve an esteemed colleague of mine of ours, Rabbi Yaakov Feldman. I met Rabbi Feldman almost 20 years ago in Camp Romimu when we worked together. Rabbi Feldman is still there as division head, but more during the year. And his, you know, his main job is the Menahel of Yeshiva First Torah in Lakewood, Yeshiva of over 400 boys. He's been the Menahel there for 13 years. So, middle school the question about to ask, middle school children meet this toy bus, Rabbi Feldman, Yeshiva First Torah Lakewood, welcome aboard. >> Hi hi Rabbi Ari and Rabbi Yisroel Chaim, first of all, I just want to preface this by saying that Ari Camp Yisroel was loss is Camp Asia's gain, but Baruch Hashem, we learned how to beat you at something this past summer. I think you know what that is. >> Baseball, not basketball. >> Oh. >> Baseball. >> [laughter] >> You got me scared. >> Yes, Yisroel, your your your reputation precedes you in many areas. You're big man here in Lakewood, even >> Here in Lakewood, we meet you here all the way all the way here in Lakewood. >> Wow. >> And wow, I have to tell my mother in law about that one. That's like next level. >> Let her know. But I just want to say that I definitely I came to Lakewood I started off as a very young person at the age of 27 I became a principal and I just have a give a big asher koach to my boss, the dean of Yeshiva Tiferes Yisroel Rabbi Yisroel Gelbwachs, who was a visionary and after the cheder in Satmar had opened up in Lakewood, he opened up he was the third Yeshiva to open up in Lakewood Yeshiva Tiferes Yisroel, which has been around for >> What are there now? Like at least seven in Lakewood now Yeshivas, right? >> There might be between seven and a hundred. Yeah. And and so Baruch Hashem, I was able to be yoinik from the old time mechanchim and still are to a to an extent. >> I don't want I don't want our viewers to get confused. Here Rabbi Feldman said he came to Lakewood at 27 and I said you've been the menahel there for 13 years. So lest someone think that they could do the math, you did not start out as the full menahel. You were there before that. >> is not known for math. However, I will tell you that I started off I have a interesting path. I started off as an English principal first and then I slid over into the morning as well um to assist up to assist Rabbi Gelbwachs. So, you know, that's that was my path to where I am now, Baruch Hashem. >> Beautiful. >> All right, so we have a question that was submitted that you know, will open up the conversation about behavior and really specifically middle school boys. So I'll read the question to you and you can react and we'll take it from there. Dear TLC, my boys are normal, fun, rambunctious boys and we try very hard to instill good middos in our kids by teaching and modeling. Our oldest is in sixth grade and it feels like we see a digression as he gets older. Feels counterintuitive. Shouldn't he be outgrowing this? This year we've had many calls from his afternoon teachers and principal. His behavior in class is just disruptive and not respectful. I know it's not him, not just him. It seems like behaving kids are the outliers, not the misbehavers. So, what should I do since talking about it with him and loss of privileges seem to be getting us nowhere. >> Well, okay, so I just want to preface by saying that many times we get I get phone calls or people meet me in shul and they ask me questions about what should they do with situation they're having in the school. So, we have to say first off the off the bat that I don't know all the the extenuating circumstances over here. I don't know the school culture. I don't know the home. I don't know really what the boy is doing. I haven't seen it first hand. I don't know the parents. I don't know the teacher. I don't know the menahel. So, I always tell people that unless I'm speaking to both sides, I don't like to give advice because that could get us into a lot of trouble and we don't always know the truth. But, what I think that what maybe we could do is we could discuss various factors that apply that we see in this that we see in this question and it could be productive to maybe many people that have a child in the same situation and maybe some of what we're discussing could pertain to what's going on with this question over here. So, so one one of the first thing I want to jump on right away is that you you said in the letter that that shouldn't he be outgrowing this? And I want to jump on that first. I don't want to say a big fat no. Your child is getting to sixth grade and I think every parent knows that something happens at that age that is not that didn't happen until now. And for first of all, his body is changing. Puberty's kicking in. And and there's an interesting there's an interesting thing that I saw from It's brought down by different people. The speaks about the speaks about it. That when it says in the that it's all of us and he gets married, these say that really that process starts in the teenage years. That we all know that every child thinks his father is the best. You know, my father's stronger than you. And my father just is like Superman. That's really how every kid thinks about his father. But at some point that changes. And the say that the reason why that changes is that in order for a in order for a child to to have independence on his own, the process needs to start. That he starts testing boundaries, getting out in the world, seeing new things, and pushing back. And what we call rebelling is really a boy starting to assert his own independence. I was walking to past and I met a father that was frustrated outside of and he said, "I don't understand my sons. They know I'm waiting for them. How could it be that they're just taking that time and they're doing what they're doing?" So, I told him I quoted him this that he and the process is starting now. And he had the from it. So, I think that at this age, at the age of around 12, is when things start changing and we see things happening. Now, that's not the only thing. It's There's a reason they start learning in sixth grade. They learn in fifth grade, but in really kicks in sixth grade because their brain and the neurons are always from a young child they're changing and they're making connections. That's really when we see Havana. If you would ask a man out or a rebbe, when do we start seeing Havana issues? It's typically around sixth grade. And what's happening is that they're starting to develop um skills, critical thinking skills. And that's going to start leading them to questioning things as well. Now, that's the child we only spoke about the child himself. But as far as school is concerned, I don't know how it is in at its own places. In my school we have women teachers through fifth grade. And I don't want to sound, you know, like whatever, a feminist has to shalom. But we know that the best teachers in the world are women. I said teachers, I didn't say rebbeim. I said teachers. So So typically boys will behave in English through when they have women through grade five. In grade six the schedule changes, the boys are older. Now they're starting to have men teacher, they feel they're more chayal, they feel they're more chashuv. So things start >> have women teachers? You don't have women teachers once you start sixth grade? Is that a hadracha from a godol? Is that just school policy? Do you find it doesn't work? Where's that from? Just curious. >> So I believe I've heard quoted, I didn't speak to him directly, that Reb Shmuel Kamenetsky said that through grade five it's okay to have it's okay to have women teachers. If it was up to me and then if it wasn't a wasn't a hashkafa or halacha question, I would probably try to do it through grade seven or grade eight. But but lema'aseh >> So there's no such thing in Lakewood there's no such thing in Lakewood as someone having a an English issue that's a female after fifth grade? >> No. As a matter of fact, at this point in Lakewood we're probably we might be the only school that still has grade five women teachers. Yeah. >> Wow. >> So >> Okay. >> So yeah. So So what's going on over here is that And we also see by the way in a person personalities, boys that have been very quiet until that age, they open up. And they start all of a sudden they start developing relationships and friends and I think another nakusa is that at this age boys start caring more about what their friends think about them than necessarily what their parents think about them. And that nakusa of I want to impress my friends can factor in a classroom also when they see the popular kid or the cool kid speaking out and acting out it may cause them to join in their in their own way. They may not I've dealt with many boys that they're trying to they're not good at it but they try to do it and then it manifests itself in one way or another but it's something that has to be addressed. So I think that this age what this questioner said that what do you mean this age they should be growing up just the opposite. We all know that 6th and 7th grade uh I said 6th and 7th shouldn't have said that are are are ages where we see a little bit of a dip. I think professionals will tell you that grade 7 and grade 10 may be the hardest grades to teach and I think that your son is entering into that right now. So that's that's that factor that's just from the boys POV of what's going on. I didn't touch the school I didn't touch the the home piece but I think that they should just know that when they said shouldn't he be outgrowing this the answer is a big fat no. >> Rabbi Feldman you were describing and I agree with everything you're saying the change that happens really globally to any middle school boy maybe even right girl but we're discussing boys now is there in your mind that you're in Lakewood right Lakewood is obviously a very large town but is there any correlation or do you see any difference between the behavior and the middos of a middle I mean I know you you have a little bit of a interesting viewpoint between the more yeshivish kid and the less yeshivish kid in terms of the middos and the behavior in middle school? >> So with that smirk on your face I see that you're tried to set me up. And I'm not falling into a trap over here. I'm not doing that. But I will tell you I'm an out-of-towner. I grew up in Toronto. And this is something we think about for I've thought about this for many years. Growing up in the Yeshivish community versus growing up in the out-of-town community. And it's something that's been discussed a lot and I will tell you I've seen boys with beautiful meters from the most Yeshivish homes in Lakewood. And I've seen boys with you know, not just the opposite from homes that were maybe you wouldn't expect it from. So, what I will tell you is that the home has a major I wouldn't say the Yeshiva as much Yeshiva does, but the home has a more of a factor in why it is. We can we can sit there and psychoanalyze why it is that people think that maybe in more Yeshivish places the kids are more maybe more sharp and more outgoing. My personal feeling what I think this is as much as I'm going to say on the matter. Is that my personal feelings is that the lot about culture. And culture in in in a Yeshiva environment, which is definitely Lakewood and other places as well. I'm sure Monsey, I'm sure other places that that they're you're brought up with this mahalach that we teach kids to question. We teach them to always ask and never take anything for granted. They see their fathers learning, they see the learning going on, they see the the risk of the rice, so they see that in Yeshiva and it's encouraged. So, I think that the there's a certain sharpness that comes along with that. And the fact of the matter is that Yeshiva boys in in the for better for better and maybe sometimes not for better are a lot more sharp in that because that's what they that's that's the environment that they're in. And it could carry over to other parts of their life. Sometimes it doesn't. That's probably where the parents come in, where the schools come in. So, that could be why it's perceived that in more in a more Yeshivish place, the kids may be more sharif and they more have a challenge in that area. That's my theory. I don't know if it's true. >> Have you noticed any change over the years in terms of how this expresses itself? Like today versus 10 years ago? Or 20 years ago? >> What I would say is just the opposite. I would say that the Yeshivas here in Lakewood in in Lakewood have really stepped it up when it comes to taking the secular studies more seriously and realizing that we can't just the wing it like it used to be and we should we should and we should take them and they're hiring professional rabbeim. Um they're not it's not just okay, it's the afternoon. I happen to have a mailer that I'm there in the morning and there in the afternoon as well. So I get to see the children see that there's a carry over from the morning as well and it's not like oh, there's the morning then there's the afternoon. It's two different things and I I think that in every school there should be a very tight bonds between the menahel and the principal that everything should be done together and the boys should get the vibes they should get the feeling that there's collaboration going on there and you're a as to quote Rabbi Gelbwachs a menahel who was quoting his menahel from from when he was a kid where you have to be a 24/7 Jew. And to be a 24/7 Jew means not just the learning in the morning and then when it comes to the afternoon throw it out. You're a 24/7 Jew that you have to have me this the entire day as well. >> So what I hear you saying is the schools have changed. Right? But I'm asking you have the kids changed? >> I believe this may be contrary to what people think. I believe that there's less chutzpah now than there was when I was growing up. I really believe that. I know it's contrary to what other people think and when he when he discussed the word chutzpah, obviously all the machonchim will jump in and say is there chutzpah or is there not? Rav Steinman has his famous zug that there's really no such thing as chutzpah. I agree. I it's not easy to understand but the more you think about it the more you realize that it it's there's a lot of truth to that and I really believe that really what we see today is that they are they're more comfortable with adults. That It used to be that an adult was a big People People tell me, I don't know if they're saying it to me as a a good guy or a schmo, but they're saying to me, "Oh, kids just schmooze with you when they walk into your office and they plop themselves down in the chair and they have conversations and they ask you for soda and a slush and a candy." And we I never would have done that with my menaul. And I feel that's what works today better when the menachem have such a tight connection that a kid could walk as comfortable walking into an office, sitting down on a chair, and talking out his emotions, which is something that kids do a lot more today than they used to. So, when I'm My point is that there used to be There was an adult and a child and it was like a big You had to know your boundaries. And today those boundaries have crumbled. And that's really society. I really don't think that could be changed. We could maintain and then we could demand and have expectations, but children have changed. I'll tell you just for an example, like let's say why is it that children have so many more allergies today than they had 30 years ago. I don't know the answer to that, but the fact is that it is. Why are children have so much anxiety today? I don't know. They There's definitely much more anxiety. I have some of the best kids in the school, the best the top boys in learning that and they're most popular and they're good looking and they're ridden with anxiety for no reason. And that's something that we never saw 20 30 years ago. >> How's their How's their three-pointer shot? How's their outside shot? Is it also good? >> I will tell you Reb Ari that seeing you be on the court with people that are 7 in taller makes me think I can play also, but that that went out the window very quickly. I was just saying that what we see is that that's the way the children are different than they were. Yes, they know much more what's going on in the world. They're more susceptible to that. I believe that's one of the causes of anxiety that parents should not be showing their children not because of rochnius reasons social media and things that are going on in Eretz Yisrael and look at that cool interception of a missile. That's some That's not the topic. You could have another a whole another workshop about that. But when kids see that, they might say, "Wow." But then they have nightmares about it and then they have anxiety. That's one of the That's one of the causes of anxiety. But children are so much more exposed to what's going on in the world than when we were growing up. And that's something that It's so they're different. See, the original question was going back swinging back to what Reb Reuven Chaim was saying that, you know, are children different than they were 10 15 years ago? They're very different, but not necessarily for the worse. I believe it's not a chutzpah issue. I believe there are other factors that that cause different things to happen. >> Yeah. Do Do you see any effect of And this is obviously a Lakewood specific question. The fact that the mesifta getting into mesifta in Lakewood is almost like an industry under its own and sometimes the kids there's like the sugia of getting into mesifta does it maybe at too young of an age make the kids amanda omar? Do you know what I mean? And it's almost like we give them too much power. The Lakewood kid who's in eighth grade and is making backroom deals his father with him in all this is shiva. It's a very hard I know it's a it's a hard >> clarify for myself? Are you saying I don't know the Lakewood matzav enough. Is it that the kids are like sought after opposed to the pressure to get in? Is that what you mean? >> I Yes. And it really Well, it depends. Obviously, there's different levels kid different types of kids. But I think there is this option of being sought after from an eighth grader and the rebbe is working on your behalf and that makes the kids a an equal maybe, you know, to an adult >> Powered. Yeah. >> in a way that is unnatural and unhealthy. Is that a fair >> Yeah. So, I want to I do want to just jump in first and say that thanks to one of our Russia Yeshiva Rabbi Saul Newman and other askanim, this year there's been a major change in the way mesivtas were done. And baruch Hashem, these issues were caused by many successful mesivtas and many children. It's no there's no fault to be distributed over here. There's when you're talking about a 67 mesivtas in Lakewood and a pots of a few hundred children, everybody wants to get what they want to get and they have their reputation of the Yeshiva and they want to get the best bachur. And it's very hard to tell Yeshivas that they they could or that they can't pursue certain children. They want to this is their mindset. But baruch Hashem, everything changed this year and then the following the Russia Yeshiva shlita Rabbi Saul Newman, everyone shut down and there was no fahaers, there was no taking in back doors as far as I know. And there was a lot of cooperation between the mesivtas and elementary school to curtail that. But if that would happen as it did in the past, yes, that does cause that could cause gaiva in children and other and then the opposite like you said before that it causes a lot of stress in children of that age that that are dealing with let's just say it like this. When I went to my fahaer and when I went to Yeshiva, I told the Russia Yeshiva on the fahaer, I like learning navi more than I like learning gemara and I still got into Yeshiva. Imagine saying that to a talmid of a fahaer and then imagine saying that now. I don't know what I would end up in public school. So so that the pressure now the pressure does have mylas also like many things. The learning in eighth grade here in Lakewood is off the charts. The boys come into eighth grade and they're learning and every kid has a chavrusa and they're steiging. But yes, if you want to know that it causes pressure, it absolutely does. Can every kid handle it? Absolutely not. It's a problem. It's a problem but that we're still working on and baruch Hashem this year did get a lot better. But the letter really was a grade six type of letter. It wasn't really an eighth grade type of thing. Yeah. >> Right. Well, so getting back to the letter as we sort of wrap up soon. So what would you tell a parent in this situation? Like their kids going to school, they see a regression in their behavior and they're getting calls from the school. And like they sort of feel like it's a avalanche of challenge in terms of getting their kid to behave. >> Right. So there's three I would say there's three different areas that have to be that have to be that have to be touched over here. There's the child himself, there's the home piece, and then there's the school piece. I would say to be concise that as far as the child himself goes, screaming at your child and punishing him is not going to work. And I don't even think that I'm a new age Maharic to say that because just ask any parent, "When was the last time you screamed at your child and all of a sudden he's changed forever?" >> That's a great question. It's a great question. Rabbi Schonfeld, when was the last time I'm joking. Go ahead, continue. >> So so So screaming at your child and threatening him and taking away things is not arguing with him, it's not a long-term solution. It's at best a 24-48 hour solution and it's not good for your relationship with your child and it's not going to cure the problem. So as far as what's going on with you as far as as going on with your son at home, that's definitely not the right approach. And I would just I want to throw in a side over here that parents it sounds like from this letter because in the letter it sounds like it seems like the behaving kids are the outliers, not the misbehaviors. And that's a very important fact cuz this kid is going to say, "But everyone in my class is doing it. I'm not the only one. And how do you expect me to behave when other kids aren't behaving either?" So you have to when you analyze that letter carefully, it seems that and that might be a problem you may have anywhere that that the boy is going to answer you back. Other kids are, "What are you screaming at me for? Why are you picking on me? Picking on me." Right? So, so what I would say is first of all the parents, just as an aside, should never glorify what they did when they were kids in schools, and they shouldn't make it look like it's kosher and and oh, when I was a kid this is what I did. People like to say that stuff. They should never do that. They should express disapproval, disappointment. "We don't act that way, and I'm disappointed that the way you're acting." But that's a very small piece. That's just That's just them at home. I think the more important piece is the relationship with the school. And the these You have to be proactive, and they have to open up lines of communication with the school. And there's a art to this, and I believe that you give workshops on how to talk properly to the school and vice versa, by the way. How a school could talk properly to a parent to get results. So, what I feel over here that a parent should do in this in in such a situation or similar situation is to be proactive and to better to do it face-to-face. I would I would say that if a parent would request a meeting with the school in a polite way and come down. We all know there's a certain empathy that when you see when you're standing in front of another human being and it's not done over the phone, things get done much better that way. That's PTA is priceless because of that. So, I think that there should definitely be a meeting. They should come down to the school, and I just I could talk about this for a long time, but I would just want would point out that you should walk into the meeting first without your son, and you should ask the principal for help. You should go ahead and say, "Yes, we have a problem. I need your guidance." And when you're turning to the menachem that you trusted your child with and you ask them for guidance, now the shoe is on the other foot. Now you're getting them to try to brainstorm with you. They're not against you, they're with you. Now that's just part of any type of meeting that should be which but whichever way you go. So, I think that they should really ask like this is the situation. My son is saying there are other boys in the class that are acting up and you could bring cases. You could do the teachers the teacher said this that kids are doing this. I need your help. My I want to help. I'm here for you. I'm with you and let's talk about it. So, if this kid has weakness academically, which I don't know is the case over here, you can ask a teacher to modify the work. You can ask the teacher to take a you can speak to the teacher and ask the teacher to take a personal interest in him. Maybe give him a job to do. Make him feel special. It's an interesting thing that we always know that giving to that's that a child doing for you actually makes him want to do more for you and want to like you more. So, when you give him a job to do when you give him errands or you make him in my Yeshiva what I'll do is I'll have a child in charge of the popcorn machine, which we use as an incentive. I have a slush machine in school, which spreads to a lot of schools of our Yeshiva. So, there's children that I give that job that they're in charge of giving out the slush whenever we do that. I have children that are in charge of, let's say, the video machines. When the teacher is showing a video, they're in charge of turning it on and off. And if you give a kid if you give a boy responsibility, a lot of times by giving a child responsibility, he mans up and he wants to live up to what your expectations of him are. So, I think raising expectations in a child and these special privileges will definitely help. Those are just small things that I'm saying. I still agree that zero tolerance is a must when it comes to chutzpah or to acting up. >> Is that you or the school? Who are you referring I'm serious. Do you mean the parent or the school? >> All of everyone. Zero tolerance to the child and it has to be a message that's given over by such a meeting. I we've done contracts with the child, which if you if you give a just in a contract you can have a list of expectations and what you're going to have is that if there's a breach of contract, then there's a consequence and I will say that if the consequence is kept to, then the children will see that it's carried out. We have, let's say, something that we did last week, which was the two classes had the rights to earn a baseball game in a park that we have across the street, and we got permits for it, etc. And one class earns it, and the other class didn't behave as well, and they begged me the next day, "We'll be good. We'll be good. Can we just have Can we just have it?" And I said to the teacher wanted to give it to them. And I said to the teacher, "The answer is no. They have to see that if there's a consequence, it's carried out, happens." And then believe I know, the rest of the week they've been perfect because they saw that they wanted to get a they want to get it for the next time, and they want to do it. So >> Rabbi Feldman, I have to ask one more question, and that is >> I know what's coming. We're going to have this podcast be aired, and it's a wonderful conversation, and there's wonderful answers, and we're back >> And they're going to want slush machines. They're going to want slush >> No, they're not going to want slush No, I'm going to get at least five emails from people who live in Lakewood, who live in Monsey, who live in Brooklyn, pastor Shawn, not none of my Manhattan parents. And they are like, "I don't know who you interviewed. I don't know who Rabbi Feldman is. I don't know who the man you're talking to. My kids' yeshiva is not less My kids' yeshiva is not in control in the afternoon. My son's fever and his own there horrible. [snorts] It's chaos. I pull them out in the afternoon, blah blah, and you're claiming and I'm giving I'll give you the last word, that like picture that is painted by these frustrated parents is really the outliers in the system, and really by and large the system is again, generally speaking, humming along, tremendous improvements. Our general studies in the afternoons better. The kids that are acting out are the same that they are in Houston and in Lakewood and in Manhattan, and really deal with the parents and come in and talk and ask for guidance that there isn't a I don't want to use the word crisis, but but a massive like chaotic upheaval in the afternoon in many yeshivas and therefore your response to that email that we're going to get after this episode is >> So someone came over to me on Shabbos and he said to me and he said to me should I'm looking into a teaching job and I was told that I should go teach English. Should I go into a certain yeshiva? And I said to him my recommendation is at this point when you're starting out not to go into a certain yeshiva because maybe that yeshiva has a reputation as being a little tougher in the afternoon and go maybe try different yeshiva first and you know get get some experience. I can't speak for every yeshiva. But if you're sending your child to a yeshiva where the afternoon is chaos and the description that you gave over is that that is a hefker velt and it and it the kids are doing crazy things in that yeshiva. I'm sorry. I don't have a solution for you because you're going into a situation where that it's just it's mismanaged. So what do what do you want me to tell you? I it just want your son to be an angel where everyone's throwing things and acting chaotically around you. I I don't I I'm I'm not a malach. I don't have a fix for that. I don't have a fix. I would recommend that anyone who's up sending their son to a yeshiva should maybe look into all aspects of the yeshiva when they're applying in primary. I know in Lakewood it's not easy. Sometimes you don't have a choice what yeshiva you're getting into etc. But >> Right. >> maybe that's something you should have thought of before you sent your son to that yeshiva. I'm I'm not putting any yeshiva there. I don't know if that way. You're the one that said that there are I happen to know a lot of English principals in in in different yeshivas and baruch Hashem there's a lot of talent in Lakewood now. A lot of homegrown talent. But there's so many it's just the number game alone brings out such incredible up up and coming menahalim and and principals that they're working on it. It's something that that we're really working on and like I said before being a 24/7 yid. So again, if a parent is saying that the if if it's really true that the school is just a mess and everyone's doing their own thing, I don't have an answer for you. I mean maybe you have an answer to be a meal. I don't know. Maybe you have an answer, but I cannot speak to that. I cannot speak to that. The Yeshivas that I know that I deal with Baruch Hashem >> Good. >> You'll have a better teacher. You'll have a teacher that's a little bit weaker, but overall, I believe contrary maybe to what other people are saying, I believe that we're getting better. Now, there's another thing about the afternoon that we're having a paradigm time shift in in what we're teaching. I think the whole old curriculum system is we're moving away from and we're going we're entering into the 21st century of what is necessary for you to make a parnassah. That's another podcast. That's definitely another podcast, but I want to just end up with this. If the teacher is an interesting teacher and the teacher has respect for his talmidim, and that's something we did not speak about, but respect is key. We know Reb Yaakov Kamenetsky was the one who brought that to America, respecting a child, and there's so many stories of what he's done, playing ball with a child, talking to a child like he's an adult. If that's followed, if a if a rebbe or a teacher is machshiv a child and speaks to the child with respect, the child will echo that and will respond in kind. That's something that's very important. And if that's done, then we're going to see you're going to see a lot of success from the from the children. >> Well, Rabbi Feldman, thank you. You gave a really great perspective on this and yeah, I think the fact that you were a general studies principal before you were a menahel is another factor. Are you still the general studies principal? >> Yeah, so I I think that one of the maalos that I have is that I'm there in the morning and in the afternoon and the boys don't >> I thought you were just there in the afternoon. I didn't realize you're also >> No, I'm on the I'm I'm working >> Now this could bring a perspective that's really helpful. And I think you're what you're saying is the parents don't give up, you know? Get in it. Get in the game. Don't blame. Don't look for others to blame, but you know, participate. So, we thank you so much for >> More More More than just not giving up, I think they should be proactive and meet with the teacher, meet with the school, come up with ideas, create a contract. In the contract there's incentives as well. You definitely put incentives in there as well. There's a boy coming to age this summer that in the contract it says if he doesn't do certain things, we're not letting him go to camp. So, you know. >> Well, Rabbi Feldman, thank you so much for coming. We really enjoyed having you. >> It was a big zchus to be part of this podcast where we've heard so much about and and being in the presence of great machanchim like you. I hope to be in touch with you again one day and obviously we only touched on a bunch of subjects. There's a lot of other topics that could be covered a lot more thoroughly. Hatzlacha. Thank you. >> All right. So, we really got different perspectives on this on this hot topic. What do you think? Are you buying it, Rabbi Schonfeld? >> You know, as I mentioned as I mentioned to Rabbi Schwartz who we interviewed that I did run a panel at the Torah Umesora convention this year with around 25 men you know, general studies principals. And to echo what what Rabbi Feldman said, I do think that there's been tremendous strides and effort, real intentional effort made by yeshivas to come up with creative ways, to come up with financially, you know, possible ways in the afternoon to make the afternoon better. >> Right. >> I I I still um I still think that there are parents listening to this and are throwing throwing tomatoes at their car screen or what you know, device whatever they're listening to on because of the fact that there still is a fundamental challenge of course middle school. But it seems to me with all due respect to Rabbi Feldman and to you know, that the more risk of the arison, maybe maybe it's supposed to be that way. It's harder to expect kids. It seems to me the more you know, right-wing Yeshivish you know, far from to you get the more challenging it is to have the kids with their carrots and mental guide and meters in the afternoon. Um, there's and I'm not blaming necessarily the kids and the culture sometimes it's just harder to get teachers in such an environment. Sometimes the expectations are less. It I definitely that's the anecdotal you know, I think pushback from parents. But listen, we we spoke to men alum that that are in the field for 25 years that are is Baltimore and and Lakewood and they're very proud of the work that's being done in middle school. So, it's all good. And and I I strike him that that there's at least real effort being made. >> There's no question in the last 3 years. I know hired someone Sherman just for this. They they had someone whose full-time job is building general studies in the Yeshivas. You know, it's become the amount of curriculum. I remember the Yeshiva from Baltimore Feldman maybe 10 years ago. >> Right. >> I think it's a good lesson made a whole men alum to talk about general studies and how he felt he was more coming from like up updating the curriculum than the behavior, but the point is it's been a focus. It's really become a focus. So, you know, we'll keep you know, we'll just get better and better and it give over the value of taking it seriously which I think is becoming so standard. Like we got to take this seriously. I don't care how firm you are, we got to take this seriously. Not because of just because Torah and derech eretz. You know, like that. >> I But to me the the hardest tightrope to walk is the you have to have at least at least Yeshiva have derech eretz. I don't care if you learn in the afternoon. I don't care if you don't >> Like what is that? >> And that is a very hard message to a certain parent to tell him, "Really, I don't care about the afternoon subjects, but at least don't be a and make a lot of to the teacher. I think that is the the fundamental challenge we have that in in many Yeshivas that really the and the value for secular education in middle school and we keep saying this. We're in Lakewood 95% of don't have general studies in right. So it's a very hard sell to middle school get to take it seriously. So now he's not supposed to take it seriously, but he's not supposed to throw spitballs. You know, it's it's a harder it's a harder sell. I think the more our community moves away from college and and moves into you know, what nursing homes now the more at the same time the curriculum itself as he I think is outdated. It's outdated to is they're trying to make it more aligned with the real life needs, you know, and that's all related to that. Well, thank you for joining us on the learning curve podcast. I always give out as in my very proud job the contact information the email the phone, but now it's with a little extra energy because we're excited to announce that we're we are going to have our second live episode. It's going to be episode 15. So it's in a few weeks number of weeks, but in the meantime, we need to collect questions and comments that we can include. So we ask you to start thinking about that and sending it curve at dot com. That's spelling out the words the learning curve at dot com or you leave us a voice note at 443 9339. That's 443 9339. Rabbi, it's been a pleasure. Always the best. Take care.