Eps 12. When East Met West

Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in Agura Israel or that Rafatal Abramsky was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabas? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the times dives into the big concepts and overlooked moments that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephraim Zalma Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. Evening was approaching when coming from Radin we arrived at the wooden hut which served as the summer home of the Ketim the acknowledged greatest rabbitical sage of our time. Walking through the smoked filled kitchen of the cottage, we stepped into a small room. We were standing now before the 92-year-old sage of small stature, wearing a black silk robe, a black summer cap on his head, sitting in an armchair. A spark of real joy came over his face with our arrival. With subdued satisfaction, he said, "Asalam alalaykum to you." And then we approached each one of us offering him our hand. Strangely enough, every one of the guests bent over the Kovet's hand in humility and kissed it. What was it that made us feel so solemn? We are used to holding our heads rather high. How did it come about that in the nearness of this man, all of us suddenly became humble, self-conscious, and yet elevated? Everyone was keenly aware we were standing before the single greatest hakic authority of our time. Still, there was another element which had a powerful effect. Though none of the conditions which stir the senses were present, no resounding speech, not even an extraordinarily intricate thought, that in itself was what made such an overwhelming impact. No adorements, just humanity, pure and simple. That, my dear Fry Galinsky, is one of the most extraordinary descriptions of God that I've ever encountered. >> I happen to agree. And where does this come from Rafim? It comes from a group. This were the words of Rivosi Kalabach the famous Kalabach dynasty who was later killed in the war. Rav Lasrov of Au alona Hamburg and Vansbeck. And these words appear in his remarkable diary of the 1929 Karan Hatra study tour which brought a whole group of sophisticated German rabbis and intellectuals to a journey across the literature worlds and the worlds of Eastern Europe. The reason I kind selected this for our I think pre-sh or episode of behind the times is that I have never seen such compelling analysis of what gdole are. I've never seen a such a compelling contemporary account of the loftiness of the pre-war Yeshivas the beauty of Lintyra and it's really an ode or a song in the very as we're going to see later in this diary of Yasvi Kalabah >> and I want you to address while you're mentioning it that what was missing in Germany I mean he was a >> right and he there was a yeshiva in Germany and they probably learned at a high level, but what is what was missing? Like what did he feel? >> I think we're going to be able to see in his own words later what it was and the value in this little known and I'll just say for listeners this comes this diary is printed in a book by his by his son by Rabio Kalabak's son who's not the singer was a cousin. The book is in English called issu hoodie the life >> originally was was the mash in Berlin just a few years ago >> right and he was a tremendous I want you to know that why I was learning in 30 some odd years ago they used to bring to these these like >> right it was called miz I think and it's beautiful stuff it's really >> very beautiful I think they reprinted after he passed away they reprinted So, so the I think primarily a refrain what I want to see over here is just to let this song of the Torah come out is so beautiful just on its own doesn't need any commentary. But there's another point over here which is that I think that in this meeting between the two worlds and we're going to get into why indeed this was what how different these worlds were and and that will become obvious but I think we see the seeds of our world because our world today is people like to think it's just the regeneration of the old pre-war Eastern European world that is emphatically not the case it is a melding of the pre-war different Jewish worlds different from worlds that made up that that great disparate Jewish world. And I think I'd like to explore that. Okay. I think Robert Fry the best jumping off point is just to acknowledge what it was the situation before the war when it involved the yeshiva and and everywhere else because today for example here in Israel they talk about back in before the war the was the was not that was not the center of the Torah world. It was Lithuania and it's Poland and everywhere else was in the sense that what I mean by that is that people did come. Americans came to Lithuania, right? We had a few from England, we had from Germany, we had from different parts from Western Europe and they would come to grow and some of those some >> remind yourself of Bavl of old, right? Everyone coming to BL >> as in like there was a Torah center, right? Correct. There was and right through history there's been times when the Torah center was in Germany there's been times when the Torah center was in France there's the Torah center has moved Russia Poland different places it was Lithuania largely before the war at least when it came to the what is known classically as the yeshiva world and we know they weren't the only Germans to go to go that direction that time but in 1929 remember a lot of what we know as for example Schlomma Vulba was to come from Frankfurt urin was to come as Well, and there was a very strong traffic, but that was seems to have been more in the 1930s, I think, and so 1929 was early and it was a kind of opening up of different worlds to each other. >> There's one point that you have to try to explain to the listeners, and that is >> the influence of German jewelry >> on on things happening to the Jewish world in general. Because today if you're going to tell someone in the street from the yeshiv someone yes you say like like German jewelry was like playing a central role right it it push doesn't make sense because today we're in a situation where German jewelry is like is >> well it's essentially Russian Russian speaking German jury and ao a post kov kiraov situation agreed and I think it's very important to understand that the effect of what had happened was like this the German jury going back the in in the generation of Shimshal Hersh the early to mid 19th century German jewelry experienced what I would call a near-death experience it was an ancient the center of the terror had been literally in the land called Ashkanaz and what had happened then was that reform had mounted an assault such a successful onslaught that they created a situation where this ancient center of Torah reform ruled they closed amic They closed down Khadorim. They legally took over the the what the government recognized as the Jewish community and created a situation was it was there was almost nothing left. The neo orthodoxy I suppose you is called of Rimsh and there were others of his time right of his time. They fought back. They created individual communities or whether they did or they didn't separate from the overall community structure in a process known as astritz but whatever it was they created a new orthodoxy. Now, when you have I I suppose you could if we're starting with the imagery of death or near-death experience, you let's continue like this. If you have a disease that nearly kills a patient, but the patient survives, >> he's much stronger. >> He's much stronger. When it comes to that particular disease, it won't get him. What had happened was that German jury had figured out a whole >> how to deal with modernity. >> How to deal with modernity. And by the way, that is the power the unique theme of Rashim Shimala's writings in that he is the one writing and giving the hashkaf of that the Torah can overcome the western modernity. He was the one >> we must stress over here right the entire base yakov movement >> was it an outcome >> of rah hers's approach to kite >> correct >> how was that because was listening to shirim by a local in Vienna and he was a raers and this is where she was inspired to take these ideas and give it over to the Jewish girls all over Europe right you have to understand in those days and I have I had a grandmother who's nifa at the age of 104. Yeah. >> And and she grew up in in Krakco. >> Yeah. >> And you have to understand even >> she was a talida. >> No, she wasn't talida but she grew up in that generation >> and she remembers like even the daughters of the greatbases >> Yeah. >> were falling away. Wow. >> Because there was no structure for Jewish education for girls. >> So they were the intelligent ones were going out to library. >> They were aristocratic. these daughters of these great rebalan they were hanging out with goes aristocrats and the continuation is understood what where will that lead to right and and this saved like a whole chunk of Yiddish guy in Europe so our verse at the end had it played a very major role in the survival of East European jewelry >> so let's get back to that later because I want to just talk towards the end about there were more components of refraramine than that it wasn't just an educational philosophy and it was habits of community and of Torah life. He created new habits, new institutions and new ways of doing things that we accept totally for for as usual now. Meaning we just take it for granted nowadays that these things exist. But no, these habits of mind were have go back to that battle that rear guard action fought by Rav and the battle successfully won. And that is the background that I think to understand what had happened because in the process neo orthodoxy in the Germanic model looked very different looked very different I think it was Romesh Shapiro who went to the hers community where his son-in-law was there the Schlomma Buuer and he'd seen earlier in the day that someone had taken around Frankfurt and was you know western Europe Germany was a very advanced place compared to well compared to anywhere in the world at the time in the in the 30s it would have been in the late 20s and Rome Shapiro they showed him there's a new thing called ice cream it's very interesting so so later on they took him to you know hers's community or his son-in-law's community then and they showed him and he ds he was asked if I'm not mistaken what did you think of it he said it's like ice cream it's very tasty but very cold >> wow >> that that is if I'm not mistaken if I'm not mistaken that is the thing and by the way I'll Just add another thing I think it was the Ponovich Rav who was asked about if I'm not going to make my facts wrong as well pre-war very famous Rav and he was uh asked when Schlomma Buer who was Dr. Solomon brought it to when his son-in-law was nifed up and there was a struggle kind of a competition who's going to be the next Rav and they asked the punish to be the thing and he said unforgettable line came up with an unforgettable line he says he said in Yiddesh he said no crank was it doctor the western European Jews the extra Jews are still ill and they need a doctor in other words they need a rabbi doctor they're not ready for a a real rav in the old style because They they've got caught up with the secular education and their abonim and those who know the great yeish rabbon after after even those who rebuilt Germanite elsewhere of monk in London he had a degree in what else William werdsworth the poetry of Wdersworth right and there was this insistence until just a few years ago until for example the last the late the last generation of raon in in in >> Washington Heights >> Washington Heights and in London there was an insistence that they have. Where's your academic degree? And that was the resonance of the Ponovich's remark. He said, "You've built something remarkable. You've saved Yiddish kite, but they're still ill. They need a doctor. But there's something that we're missing over here." Okay. Yeah. And this is >> the reason why they played a role in this story that we're talking about, the Kona. Yeah. >> Is because historically at that Kufa, Germany was at its peak. >> Yeah. And it's like it's it's equal to where America is today. >> Correct. >> And that is why this all this emanated from Germany. They're like coming from the place that has the money that has the power and has >> the organizational theim develop their skills and we're going to see. So I think rebime I think we can jump with that introduction. I think we can jump straight into a few just absolutely beautiful scenes. Whether you agree or not with the rest of the analysis, they stand on their own. First of all, a good Israel to the Karan Hatra was a major international fundraising rescue effort that begun after the first world war because there was collapse of the whole east the whole economic model that had uh underpinned the yeshivas and Tyra and it collapsed and so then the agura had to look not each yeshiva for itself but altogether itself and what happened was someone had an idea in 1929 a good karan initiative under Dr. Leia Deutslander took place officially reframe what this journey was a study mission there was a delegation of leading western European rabonim and journalists and community figures they were traveling through the great Torah centers of >> I'm assuming that they we're talking about all from >> they were all right absolutely this modern but right >> they were under the ages >> right right for sure >> and they were and their purpose was they it was a factf finding mission like you're going to send in other words you these people all are influential They've got balabat in back home. They might control a fund or whatever it is. And they want to see for themselves what is it they're supporting over here. And at the head of the group stood Kabak who was then one of emerging as one of the leading figures of German orthodoxy. And he was I think it's worth saying who he was because the Kalabak name is a very iconic name and continues to have major associated with it. The father of this of this clan was Rabbi Dr. Salomon Schlomman Kalibah who was the Rav of Lubec. Lubec's in the German north in near the Baltic. I think near the Baltic or somewhere around there and near Hamburg and and he was a if you see pictures of Rabbi Schlomma Kalak the original one he was a you know a tremendous rabbitic presence not interestingly enough not didn't look like the standard clean kind of type of German rov he was fullbearded tall literature couple and yamula he had a whole lot of ch sons each of about half of whom became rabbon in that final generation German rabbitic generation before the holocaust about five of them were kalabach and they were supported in turn by some of the others for example I think one of the other brothers became a banker he was wealthy he supported his brother's efforts and they were all sort of in the hersian way you had you had the rabbis and the doctors and they were all and sometimes at the same time but crucially the father was very close and for some reason had links to galam of Eastern Europe and there's a correspondence between them so there was this connection and just to carry on from that point that two of his children, two of Rabbi Dr. Schlimmer Kalabach's children, one of them and the other two, the other one I think it was Emanuel Kalabach, both of them were chaplain in the German army during the first world war and they were instrumental in the first world war in saving Polish jury working handinhand with the IM Gabba to streamline and professionalize. >> He was positioned in Eastern Europe. Yes, he was part of the German government of occupation, but he was a chaplain for the army who seat desmire was able to win favor with the generals and basically shunted to the side the reform Jewish leadership who were being consulted. Remember in the first world war the Germans spent four three or four years in Poland occupied it. They had a chance to revolutionize everything and they tried to and the under the reform rabbis who were allied with the German occupation authorities there was the idea that they're going to destroy the system as backward and primitive and it was literally gazeras >> and he stood in their way >> and the two brothers were able to work made contact with I don't remember how it goes together with another Kash German Rav whose name I forget who they were able to win the competence of the German authorities and they had the confidence because they walked the walk and taught the talk they were clearly university trained sophisticated people and this was something that the German authorities that was how you qualified if you didn't have those credentials you couldn't get in the door and they were able >> that is very interesting that two German rabbis like enabled continuity of authentic Jewish life in Poland >> yes it's a very big story >> between the two world wars >> it's a very big story and the and the relationship I've written about it years ago and after I did somebody the story of these two brothers focusing on the two brothers and this after I did somebody made contact and he's he said yes we're descendants and we have the kis given by the IRA MS to our grandfather and yeah it's a story in issue hood you speaks extensively about in the book over here and it's a wonderful thing but anyway so so that was the background to the mission who were who was on this mission so names fry I think you'll be familiar with Rabbi Dr. Leo Yung. That's a big name. Okay. Rabbi Leo Young. I think that's the way you pronounce it, right? >> Yeah. >> Even though it's written Jung. >> Yeah. Well, it's pronounced as Yung. He was he and he is he was an uncle of my wife's grandfather. So the Roth he was an uncle of the Rothschilds from Zurich. So So he was a very >> he had a lot of influence in in America. He was like very charismatic >> and so bringing him along was a very savvy move because he enabled them to tap in the yeshiva suddenly were able to tap into funding from you know Manhattan funding that's >> I'm wondering if it's because of that he became one of the prime sources of funding for the basako movement >> very interesting so that may this is maybe the link who else there was names I'm less familiar with over here as you say was as chairman of the American basaku committee etc but there were others such as there that Dr. Adolf Deutsch of Budapest Professor Alladada first from across Germany. I looked up this name and never heard it but you actually see these were academics are still the internet hasn't forgotten them and they were from ger you know from Germany from Hungary Holland and Austria different parts as well and what they happened is and there's beautiful pictures in this book is you see all the yasers there in their different their traveling clothes you know the the soft cloth caps and the the literally traveling clothes of the late 1920s and they're traveling by car through the rough roads of Poland can you imagine how bad they were right Poland Galitzia Lithuania Slovakia, Hungary, parts of this were very underdeveloped parts of Eastern Europe. And they visited nearly 40 cities, 40 places in 17 cities, including Lublin, VNA, Radin, and Presborg. Now, actually, that's interesting. They got Slovakia, right? So, Buddha Preborgs and Slovakia. So, they weren't just going for the literature worlds. We're going literature and also and also Hungarian worlds. And the pictures from that you know are just meeting a meetings of worlds you know like you know very evocative o over that fry let me just quote over here let's begin to quote him because the diary here is so rich over here these are the records of kalabach and he says like this was it a summertime excursion or a study tour an exploration trip or a visit to the census of Torah a pilgrimage or a religious service. What indeed was this event orchestrated by the Karan Torra which brought together 20 people from seven different countries representing 15 different professions. I love that very yakisha touch to saunter across Czechlovakia, Galitia, Poland and Lithuania from Vienna to VNA. It was all of these and more and like everything precious and genuine had achieved beyond all initial aims. It was a total novelty in Jewish communal life. This is beautiful. The brothers journey to seek our brothers and to see them. Thus the journey assumed a symbolic character. It became a harbinger of kibbus galyas of the great reunion and recognition of those who belong together. >> So saying beyond the practical >> purpose of the mission, the fact that they were meeting each other was an importance of itself. >> Correct. And I I think that's a very good expression of what's happening here. It's a meeting of worlds. And as we said, remember how separate these are the German Western European experience now fundamentally different from life in Eastern Europe. And I think Kafraim it's fair to say that after the war of course you're getting the rebuilding of the fume world not these worlds didn't disappear but they live side by side in flatbush you go to the yeshiva of flatbush monthox institution which is down the road from kimberlin which is right and you're seeing across people are not geographically separated by hundreds of miles and different state borders these worlds have melded but >> yeah but the ideals are still there >> the ideals that's what I'm saying the ideals are still there but they exist you might side by side you could d in shakas with the yakas you know after with the you know with the yeshivish with the in the yeshiva and go and s you know what I'm saying and it's easy you could do it all within half an hour's driving in most places in the world that remains true but what is so novel about this was that these worlds were meeting genuinely for the first time and frime I I think what we're about to see is on our first stop the visit to Ramir Shapiro and let's go ahead. Do you want to go ahead and close? >> I'm wondering that Rome Shapiro they probably knew him from his trips abroad. He was someone who fundraised all over the world. I'm really doubting if this is the first this first time they're meeting him in his >> Yes. I don't know when he came to I don't know when he came. As I said he did come to Frankfurt etc. I don't know where he >> came to America. Yeah, he was in America for a good >> well he had to fund raise right through the 20s for his yeshiva. I think it was open in the early 30s and let's just read this extract over here cuz it's really beautiful and just just comments over here at the table in Lublin. We were joined by a very large number of students of the yeshiva as well as many admirers from neighboring cities who had come to honor the guests of the special savas. The lubliner of Rome Shapiro sat at the head of the table in his festive silken garment. the enormous fur hat on his head. >> He doesn't even call it a stryman. >> Yeah, I love I love that. I love that. That is just so quintessential. You see the distance? Who wouldn't who who would call it that in this day? 300 surrounded him. All of them spiritually mature men. There are no words to describe the atmosphere of these hours. >> What we must point out at this point of >> Yeah. that I think me and you we're still to see remnants of >> for example raving gravidsworth >> and the people who haven't seen them cannot they can't fathom like the Torah knowledge of these people like today we we hardly see these people who are like bubbling over >> with sha >> I think it was particularly a product of 100% They had to be mak they couldn't sit there and >> in order to be accepted to >> how many >> 400 >> 400 just to get in Ravosnner was not accepted >> why >> because he didn't pass the test >> didn't make it in >> he didn't make it in however >> Rav Shapiro found him in a corner sitting and crying >> and he says someone who has such an ava I'm going to accept it never and he became like the major po in the >> I only heard him once I met about 20 years ago I went into yeshiva's yeshiva and bene and I heard this be I walked in everyone's sitting down I and I stood at the back and I heard this beautiful clear voice come out >> but I looked >> the was like >> yeah but it was like the pronunciation very clear very and then I looked around I said I couldn't see I thought it was a recording or something listening he was sitting down he was so small when he was sitting down I couldn't see him so >> he was so aristocratic he was like he was a real like obelander from the That's where he grew up. I saw his father's cave just behind the chb's cave in Vienna. >> But so you have to understand these are people who knew Shas >> and I remember Kry was the first time I heard Rob Krys was he was masid of Rudman and Harov when I was a young boy and I came to listen to the hespit and he simply closed his eyes. Christ was a ro of >> of Antwerp and he was a of >> he closed his eyes and he was just reading off Gumaras Milo >> of Gumaras that talk about has sped him about other you know it was fascinating and like you said about the sweetness of of the of the way he just read those garas >> these are all products of because this was a bit >> because until those days there was no central yeshiva in Poland at all. >> Yeah. >> If you had a good rob in a good town and you had a good >> This is why ended up in literature yes, >> right? 100%. And he he really he made a revolution. Yeah. >> And this is where he's visiting a place where he says at the table 300. >> Yeah. >> It's really fascinating what he did. >> Fascinating. And there and to hear him continue to describe this. I just want to there's something absolutely unique about Rabbi Kalabak's way of because he was an outsider and a brilliant man at Tam himself but coming from an entirely different world a world where the mus of gleam in that way wasn't had had stopped you know had since ceased long ceased and he describes therefore the series of rabbon he met in a way that is I've never seen anything like this listen to this over here in Lublin we experience experience for the first time time the overpowering strength of the personality of Shapiro is a genius a brilliant orator and organizer teacher and leader. The reason that his personality makes such a deep impression is that it is entirely uncomplicated rooted only in Talmudic Judaism in the four cubits of then he says and I just emphasize this it is just it is I think this is so important to hear this how to analyze in our day and age >> how to analyze how to read right he says let me continue it is nothing short of fascinating that in such a strictly circumscribed foundation meaning such limited background, no secular knowledge, no world. A modern, free and self-confident individuality can be built and developed that someone of such posture and disposition and with a spiritual out outlook of very specific character projects a Judaism that is universal without boundaries and circumstances. Ra the re what I want to just bring out here is this point. He's picking up on the fact that Shapiro was brilliant in the authentic oldfashioned sense of the world. He was handsome man with a tremendous presence. You know that picture of him with this holding the little was a mele, right? He brought that malus to to to the Polish parliament the same way he was a was a member of the parliament. And what is fascinated in his objective way is the fact that he is so free and open and powerful and shal having grown on nothing but Torah and that's what it is and I think that's the that the that I personally find this and part of the reason why I raised this I want to talk about this the single best definition of Tyra that or the ability of Torah to elevate that is possible to find that I've ever read because that is exactly it. How is something so wide built on something so narrow? That's Torah. It looks narrow but it contains the world. And that's so opposite the prevalent way of looking at things today. Then in order to be a broad-minded person, you have to have an academic degree. Right. And so there's a big >> about what they call Liba. Liba is the basic core curriculum of the secular curriculum. >> But the bottom line is do those people who learn the core curriculum of the Israeli educational system do they come out better Jews or better human beings than people who don't >> and they're equipped it's fair to say to be programmers etc better better than that. I don't think anyone's going to argue that. But I think what he's getting at is the ability of >> he's talking about the personality right building the personality. >> Yeah. And of you know there's bits more there's quotes over here as he says to be able to so thoroughly understand his fellow human beings when he desired nothing else but Torah amits us listen this phrase such simultaneous breadth and narrowness of the inner soul this antinomy of the spiritual structure that is carabath the son's own English that is what totally overwhelmed us impressing itself unforgettably upon our spirit it is absolutely it's absolute first class. This I it should be more widely known and I'm happy we're getting a chance to see it cuz it's riveting over here. >> The next step on the way is meeting the two giants of of literature jury. We're talking about I once came across a a pamphlet. I believe no one have had ever seen this pamphlet in the last few years. It was like a printed small pamphlet from a yard site evening dedicated to Rabbi Dr. Kil Yakov Weinberg, >> the Sudesh, >> right? I think I told you many times before that the Sudesh has an adopted son, not officially adopted son, but Sudesh had no children, >> right? >> And there was a Talmud of his by the name of Shaw Vangort. >> Yes. >> He brought over the Sudesh to Switzerland in order to to help him heal. >> Is he not not around still? All right. Schol Shaw Vangorn was a Talmet of the Sudesh probably from the seminary and after the war the Sudesh was in a bad mically healthwise and he brought him over to Switzerland. >> Yeah. >> And he took care of him like with doctors and all that. He managed to you know bring him back to life and then he was killed in a train accident. >> So it's his son. >> So his son now the cards flipped. You understand the sudesh like adopted the children >> of ravine >> of ra vangot. >> So his son baba vangot he organizes like once a yard site >> the sudes >> sudes. So after one of these evenings so they printed out a pamphlet of summarizing what they were talking about and one of the speakers there was his name was Lifchitz. Yeah. >> Who was once a mashak in Kenya many years ago and he was like a he had to be in Switzerland for something. I think he was learning psychology at that time by P. Is that right? Right. In in Switzerland and he was like a yadinoi of the sudesh. And you have to understand he says the sudesh was a very critical person. >> Yeah. I mean you can even see it in his writings like he can talk about someone but he can point out like where right there's no one above that right but when he spoke about he had tears in his eyes >> that's what so so he I once asked like what >> why was it what's going on so he tell he told me the following story that that he was so moved by the personality of because of personal encounter that he had with the worth listening to. He was a young yeshiva. Yeah. >> And he was traveling by train >> and he asked like a few local bums the train where to get off >> and because he didn't understand Russian properly so he got off the wrong place and he was beaten up like by some custom. Yeah. and and then he decided that he's going to learn Russian and heard about it and the next time he came to that area where the Sudesh was he sought him out and he said bring him into >> but the Sudesh was a famous ilo 17 years old right >> that he should be focusing not on language but on learning >> right exactly so he said the first thing was that he walked into the room and got up for him so said as soon as I saw that my heart fell Okay. had something in mind, right? And turned to him and he says, "You see all these swarm over here and see some see all these swarm? >> Who are they written for? >> Who's going to learn them?" Like the university students are going to learn who's going to learn you're the one you're the one that that they wrote the safer for. and he took him by his hand and he started crying while he held his hand and he begged him not to learn Russian but to focus on tooning >> because he understood that >> by the way the Swedes was a professor in I think languages by the way so I don't know if he he listened to the thing his direction but he was very impressed by sincerity and as above Kalbach's descriptions are fascinating but one more personality of similar power and nobility was on our agenda before the conclusion of our journey. It seems that this was one of the last visits strictly in the order that it appears. >> Right. Right. Raiser Gudens Genski to us children of the modern world was perhaps even more important and >> consequential >> consequential in his uniqueness. While made us experience a portion of other worldliness, a sbatical stillness of eternity, we met in a person who was closer to our level of life. These two great men could in a certain sense be compared one to another as this is unparalleled stuff. I've often felt it's a failing of the way I you know that we write biographies and that we talk about Gdali in the end they all sound the same and that is such a cliche that it's talk about a cliche about a cliche but it's something we must overcome because you see it can be done look at the genius of that look how penetrating that insight is to compare to Mashiach what's the difference between Mashiach and is Mashiach is say the world will continue as the Ram says the world will continue as before it will just be on an elevated plane but the physical reality will remain the same >> that's correct right and so the that is the ability to totally be in this world and be a normal human being and yet be elevated whereas is this taste of right which is supernatural or exist existence of holiness that is not of this world. That is an remarkable and startling insight. >> 100%. If you allow me, I once interviewed a very important figure in yeshiva history, right? >> And that is you probably know the name Rebie Leon >> from London >> from London. He was a Yadaminoi of the Panov for many years when the Panov came to to London to raise funds for Panovich. And I had the privilege of sitting with him and Coen, the head of the the rabbitical board for the Hebrew Mishbaka. >> Yeah. >> And they're friends from way way back. And >> the beginning of Panovich, >> right? And they and we sat there for probably over an hour, maybe close to two hours, speaking about his discussions with the Panov. And spoke about and he said, it's a long story. I'm not going to tell you the whole story what we heard over there, but one thing was very interesting. He said that the was like a malik. >> Okay. He said and he gave an example. He says when we used to sit in meetings with >> Yeah. >> the would actually read our minds and you say he would point to each one sitting at the table. >> Yeah. >> And he would tell them something that they were thinking about. >> Was that a party trick? I mean what was the point? >> For some reason he was giving them like orders. Mhm. >> in his way of doing it. But he says we felt that he knew what was going on in our minds. >> That was the >> talking about who was a big person himself who was a very big person himself. Reb, I think that the highlight of this diary and to me the most moving thing, it's actually printed on the back page of the dust jacket of this ishuhi was the song the shir the ode the praise of Kalabak to the yeshiva to the life of Tyra and the life of being immersed in Tyra and this given who he was given his stature and given his position and the fact that he could have said no no our way is correct. Or maybe he did feel as a Hersian that our way is correct. But he was able to recognize something unique and beautiful and unrivaled in the Torah world of Eastern Europe. This was a rabbi who was so busy. We know he in the book over here, the issue, he says how his father did not have time to prepare his brilliant dar. He did not have a minute to prepare his dashes. And he said you could see when he was beginning to prepare his dashers which is I think he spoke before Chris Torah after Chris I don't remember which one it was but when they were busy putting the safe in or out >> that's when he had >> he said that's when he and he would quote verbatim madrashim and gummoras and ideas and it was beautiful stuff and it was all he didn't have time he was just too busy running because what happened he was the became increasingly as the 30s went on less and less fewer and fewer rabbon were left in Germany And he was the RAV of first Hamburg and then always the other way around Altera the Hamburg and Vansbeck and Rabonov of one the only big rabbon left and as the crisis of German jewelry mounted he was one of the last addresses so so you can understand he didn't have time not sure he taugh whatever it was but that is what makes this so beautiful over here >> that even someone of such stature was we would use the word misspoil >> correct he says like this of the yeshivas that he saw. The secret of this Jewish energy, the key to understanding its ability to conquer the power of the bayonet and the wit of alluring fad and fashion, which was obviously the glitter of Western Europe, of the good life and comforts, of the glittering civilization, the social acclimatization is the same in all four countries visited. Very interestingly, he's giving a summary of everything he saw. Lithuania and Poland and Russia and Presborg, namely the learning of Tyra. And now listen to this. Young and old, rich and poor, everyone is learning constantly, totally immersed, living and breathing the Tyra, be it the written or oral one, just as the Yiddish language is interwoven, their Yiddish language, remember Western Europe, they don't speak Yiddish, is interwoven and intermingled with idioms and phrases from the Talmud. So is their very life pulsating and throbbing with an echo of sacred rit. >> This is very interesting because if you're talking about the time the period of history that he's visiting Eastern Europe, >> this is already after the secularization takes hold of the Jewish 1929, right? He's on his way out, >> right? And he still feels it. >> He still feels it. >> He still he still feels the fact that everyone is sitting and learning. >> Well, I think look, first of all, looking he's visiting yeshiva towns. He's visiting VNA. You see that's where everything is concentrated. >> He's going to ground zero. He's going to the places. He's not going to little villages where it's dying out. He's not going to he's going to the still the places where it's you know you had this introduction to the of the who is it theesh his introduction to his work fascinatingly he says people come and say what are you complaining about that the that these the Torah is going the but are full everything and he writes in the introduction have you stepped outside the base of me in Warsaw don't you understand inside there's the vibrant Torah world people are everything's fine outside is death and desolation right and that's what it was if you were inside me if you were inside me in in in tells you you could ignore the fact that >> but how many people from each village came >> the civilization told me he says that his father his father and said to him said during the 20s I'm going to America he wants he travel to America because he wanted to take his yeshiva there he said the Torah world of Eastern Europe is finished. >> Wow. >> It's finished. The future is in America. He told him Bowwine said most incredible thing. He was said because the poverty and the reason was said poverty and the isms all the isms that were driving it was the incredible poverty and what had happened. So it's not surprise these two things coexisted. Things were going rapidly downhill but fighting back inside the Bish was tremendous light, tremendous energy and still the ancient Torah civilization. It's worth reading a bit more of his. He says for us Hebrew is a foreign tongue as is German to a Frenchman. To them in contrast it is the mother tongue. Every simpleton's talk as natural to children's babble as to mature pure people's talk. Then he says like this to them the Torah is not a lesson in religion but the very wisdom of life the living spirit which penetrates every fiber of existence. I think we go back to what I asked you in the beginning of the of this chapter was what did he find in Eastern Europe that he didn't have in Germany and I think this is the nuda the nuda is that Torah is their life and without getting into details I can tell you I I was visiting a different community very fine people but there's a difference okay just as a a side point okay I'm accustomed where I'm coming from Mati Shabas we you go you continue shalashudas for 15 20 minutes after the man you'll find plenty of minanim right I go to a place another community with number of wise there are enough people there believe me 20 minutes after shabas is over noan left and I came to the real realization that there are some places where yishka plays a central role or it's something that has to be done and let's move on shabas comes around let's get it over with. So I mean in that vein you have what I would sum say is a summary the thrust of what of Kalabak is saying was contrasting the richness of the Torah culture of Eastern Europe versus the poverty of the that culture in Germany and Western Europe in which become cut off from the life source and the mainstream and it become people then were spoonfed small doses of Torah with large doses of der and I think that will be the strongest defenders and advocates of the ya world will say that. But I think that is the the very very interesting and the honesty the honest take of Kalabak over here and just to finish off this over here with one one thing one extremely powerful phrase that sums up what a yeshiva is fry what do you think of this he says it is a quasi people's university the yeshiva to which no diploma guarantees admission which is open to anyone to come and go if he identifies with the high republic of the Jewish spirit and is capable of exchanging thoughts and arguments with Abaya and Rover. I want to end off with the fact that this all sounds river patronizing. It's just the it's just the Germans coming along being wild by the Eastern Europe. Okay, I think it was too more of a two-way street over here. River Fry when I think if you just pause or end the ep end the episode here we see a very beautiful song a song of praise of a very great and and honest outsider and thinker of the yeshiva world and of or let's say of the more broadly of the Eastern European pre-war Torah world >> sometimes you need someone to come from the outside >> correct >> and give you a fresh observation >> and that is what this is but I think in all fairness it's more because what actually happened if you look at the diary What you're seeing is that it was actually more of a two-way street. The pictures that we show the Eastern Europe coming out of May Shapiro the so these delegation from from Western Europe I don't think they were just after their money or wow we've have to be care of them. I think that as Rabbi Kalabak himself notes there's this incredible line of frame which he says says that at a certain point the discoverers became the discovery. In other words, it was clear to him that the of Eastern Europe and the organizers of Eastern Europe didn't just see them as fundraisers or targets for Kira etc. They recognized that there's some unique value that the Jews of Western Europe, the Orthodox Jews of Western Europe had to bring to the table. And we talked about that before. I think that if I want to summarize things, I would say that whereas the Jews of Eastern Europe brought the immersion in Torah, the yeshiva civilization, the great spiritual center of gravity, the Jews of the West had worked out and brought to the table structure, organization, institutional thinking, >> which was now crucial in Eastern Europe because different forces were coming in >> because the the same forces that had laid waste in Western Europe were now assaulting. That's a subject for another time. But I think very clearly as we said at the beginning, what we take for granted are the enormous from infrastructure that we see today. We don't move anywhere. It's almost like with this amazing evading army, you come the world comes to a new place. What does it do straight away? Well, we need Shivas bakovs kim organizations lobbying groups to deal with the local government professionalized misters. We tend to think of these things as ancient and continuous, but they weren't because they were in truth a marriage of west and east. And somehow after the ashes of Europe, those strands fused into the I think the phoenixike rebirth of the Torah world that surrounds us today. Beautiful Fry. I just because this is really not about analysis. It is about the beautiful words of Kalabak this autumn god gava who was died al hashem how I think it's appropriate just to end with his some just a few last lines of his kind of love song and poetry for Torah learning itself because he says like this and excuse me if I quote from this just to bear bear bear with but I think that it's worth it he says oh blissful world of the yeshiva your spicy invigorating air makes My chest swell, my pulse beat faster. You fortress of Torah with open doors and wide open windows. You great source of comfort to Israel. Who feels in your arena the world's agony? Who asks about cradle of parental home about age or status, name or origin? All differences among people disappear like useless scales. Oh paradise of joy will one feel so enriched, so fulfilled, so world transcending. Only those who study merge into harmonious resounding choir, the song of the waves of the rolling seas of the Jewish spirit, he continues, beautiful. In this chorus, no one voice stands out. Yet one hears the allconquering, all humbling voice of Mosher Rabenu, of Rabia, of Rambam and Rashi. And then his these last words which you can imagine he took with him all those words to back to Germany where he would go through the Hitler years, make the brave decision to stay behind and eventually would go with his community after death. He says, "It still resounds in my ears, that roaring stormy singong, like breakers of sound waves upon the rock of Tyra, being grit by longing for that station of life affirming world oblivion, of those fortunate ones who retreat from the world without loathing that it elucidates and illuminates the labyrinth of the Jewish heart." >> Beautiful. Thank you for listening to Behind the Times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time.