Ep. 3 The Dayan Who Faced Down Moshe Dayan

Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in Aguras Israel or that Rafatramsky was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabias? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the Times dives into the big concepts and overlooked moments that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. This is Jewish history like you've never heard it before. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephraim Zal Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. The white paper banning Jewish immigration to Palestine was in full force after World War II. The Royal Navy sealed the coastline. Tens of thousands of Jews languished in deportation camps unable to enter Erit Israel. It was the height of the struggle for Erit Israel in the last years of the British mandate. When a letter arrived at the British foreign and colonial office in London addressed to the foreign minister, it came from the London basin signed by none other than the Abbasin Peskll Abramsky. We who sit in judgment are duty bound to express our opinion that of the Torah. That the historical connection between Jews and the Holy Lamb mentioned in the Balfur declaration is founded in a divine promise. Just as our holy Torah, which is the word of the living God is eternal, so this promise is eternal. The letter went on to say, "The white paper that closes the gates of the Holy Land to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob contradicts that promise. We can't abide any law that prevents even one Jew fulfilling the injunction to live in the Holy Land, just as we can't tolerate any decree that prevents us fulfilling one of God's instructions." That letter written in the late 1940s, in other words, just a few years before he moved to Aritzel in 1951, is a fine introduction to this [clears throat] episode because over here you see Raikas Abramsky in his full majesty as a fierce defender of Torah values representing the Jewish world in the corridors of power. for Frank Galinsky. We've said that in the previous episode that up to now Dina Bramsky of Katkarski risked his life to teach Torah in Russia stared down the assimilationist to keep British jewelry orthodox. Then in this third stage of his life he defended and led the nent yeshiva world of Verit Israel. And strangely enough and this is my as it were the headline. It all boils down to me this episode. This is about the self-made god. How a baka who learned alone went on to head the yeshiva world. >> Beautiful introduction. First of all, I must say that you've now solved a riddle for me because I knew for a time now that has a whole contress explaining why belongs to the Jewish people in in Hebrew. >> Yes. So >> I was trying to find it. >> Yeah, it's found. You can find it. I think I I found it somewhere. I can send it to you. But this is the background. What you took this as one of his duties which is striking. You know today we spoke about this in the previous episode. He felt that it was his to represent us to the British government and tell them what the Torah thought about the current affairs of the day which is a whole new way of looking at it at the duty of a guttle. Correct. And this is so important as you said to grasp if anyone wants to relisten or didn't understand that from the first episode that is the essence of who he was. Torah leadership is not relegated to a few streets inside a karedi community. The Torah is confident is proud and has to lead the Jewish people. And that's what he had in England. That's what was found in this letter in the years before he's moving. And that is why is the impact he had in Erit Israel because he was again due to the forceless personality of his Torah personality his greatness and those convictions he was able to sit down with the often hostile leaders heads of the of this nent young Jewish state. He arrived to live in Erit Israel three years after the founding of the state of Israel and he was able to negotiate with them on behalf of the very very weak still growing Torah world and in a position of strength and I think you have a very >> classical story about that is that he's meeting Shiman Paris who at that time was the defense minister or the secretary of the defense minister and this talk of guat is coming up it didn't start now it started decades ago and Shiman Paris he arranged the meeting and he wanted to talk about negotiations and compromise and all that. So Ramsky enters the meeting again. He says, "I want to begin the meeting with the end of the meeting. I want to tell you there's nothing more to talk about. >> You start with the bottom line." >> Exactly. >> There's nothing. What happened? >> And he just told him that you're not going to touch the issue. And there was like I think Shiman P just like closed the meeting at that he realized nothing to talk about. But bars bransky was like we'll talk about it later but he came to soul at a point where there was a certain vacuum in leadership and he filled that vacuum. We'll get to that in the continuation of this episode. So I think just listening to you and let me rename this. It's not to make it more current because the you know we are now literally the government is now in the process of yes falling not falling over the draft law and as you say this is not its first rodeo. This is not the first time we've been here. This has been so many rounds. And he was there in at the very start because it was he arrived I if I'm not mistaken >> I don't know if that meeting was in 1953 probably when he assumed responsibilities as a god. >> Shiman Perez Shiman Perez was in the late60s he was called the manal the CEO of the defense ministry and as we know Shiman Perez was an amazing character in many ways. He was >> he has a lot of by the way the >> and hold on you know let's see since you raised it let's jump in >> no the arian who said that we owe a lot >> okay so let's see whatski had to say about him >> okaysky said according to Ramsky's son Ezra who wrote this amazing biography he said that the defense ministers who absolve Ben Shivas from the draft will get hab and he went on and said actually something amazing this is a bit it sounds controvers Sial this is such an amazing thing and just to give you an it's just so typical as well he said Dino Brsky said about Bengurian he said when he was told that Bengurian I think he was told that he'd had his 90th birthdayski said the following amazing thing he said he quote theim the had said had talked about the Jewish secular Jewish lawyer who defended Mendel bis in the bis trial so said about him and this is related by the labramsky that perhaps the reason that this lawyer was is because they couldn't decide in shamayim what to do with him what does that mean you laugh what does that mean he's a secularist doesn't keep anything maybe he threw away to mitzvah it's he defended saved saved Jews he saved one he saved the Jews the baist trial that was could have been prums so said reportedly said so why is he because they can't sign what do with him yet how do you seize in that ways said about Bengurion that that he said the same thing he said he was you know you couldn't get a more secular person than that but on the other hand the tremendous of supporting and giving an exemption to the Torah which I think is such an important thing if we cycle into current events now You find like this it's so important to understand that gda is are convinced more in in a way utterly clear to them that the drafting of yeshiva bakim is a security threat. That's what it is. It's not about is not about and we're going to seeks himself saying this later in which he says in which he quotes sources to that for the gdali. It is not a joke. It is not a joke. the the idea the greatest threat to Israel's security is removing the is removing is removing the the >> is on record saying that he starts worrying about the security situation in antisol only when the yeshivas go to benzman >> right and the question is back in for that reason took so seriously the idea that the Torah is the you know keeps the world going that he kept had a cycle 24 hours a were learning because they're learning for the whole world. >> So let's go back in time before we get to there's a lot to say about and you can write a whole biography just on Raasmsky's life in soil because as you said in the previous recording lived there for 25 years >> am I right? >> Yes. 51 to 76. >> And what he accomplished in those 25 years we're going to talk about it soon. It's just unbelievable. And you can write a whole book just about that. But just a few snippets along the way of things that I I was thinking about of Hadk Ramsky from his early childhood and then later on. So you mentioned in the previous recording that he was born in some village in Eastern Europe and you had difficulty even pronouncing the name >> Dashkovi. >> Yeah. So >> I challenge anyone. >> So I think you forgot to mention that a lot of his siblings died in childbirth. Is that true? >> Do you? I don't know but I know he had a sister who remained anyway >> that's what I heard that he had a few children who died in childbirth and he got a special braha and he was very sickly as a child and this one of the funny stories with our branchki in Siberia later Ian is that he was constantly getting cold he was coming down with cold he's very sensitive anyone be sensitive to Siberia >> no so in Siberia he never came down with a cold >> amazing >> that was like one of the >> Siberia Well, actually, hold on. I do know this thing about he was born as a result his parents lost many children before and he's born as a result of who's called of Mosha director who was a devel about whom brisk said he was the last to teach the cabal of the vagon and eventually he was born as a result of this braha went on to marry his granddaughter. So, isn't that a nice full circle? And and I think the important thing to grasp, we alluded to this, but let's just develop this a bit more in this episode because it's kind of the important thing to grasp about Dianasky was the fact that he was selfmade. When we talk about he grew up in this little village, there wasn't even a minion, right? And if you heard that in the first episode, then you're going to just to flesh that out a little bit, >> right? So, that brings me to another snippet that we're talking about. He had to go to another village, okay? And his mother was so worried about him, she used to wrap him up in the winter with quilt covers and she used to watch him going to to like >> do you know how old he was when he first went to >> Yeah. So he was 7 years old. >> How far was it? It was 8 kilometers. >> He used to walk. >> Can you imagine the mysterious nephesh of I mean it it just sounds when you hear this you just want to cry. This was my nephew of Tyra just I think as you say some snippets about the childhood to understand where he came from and perhaps to understand how self-made he was but what the the atmosphere in the world that created him. He said that his son writes that he was very precocious. He you know at 8 years old a year after he started going 8 km each way he will start to memorize he's basically influenced in the Nim balp on at that stage >> I think he once said because I'm sorry to digress right but you know who is in the old so he restarted this whole this whole educational system where every child has no and then his leading light was he went to consult told him and April told him that in lit when he was growing up the children knew Tanak >> that's unbelievable that's on record this this >> well it's on record now it [laughter] is now on our podcast so the that is very interesting and there was his son writes there was a roofer you know a guy used to fix a Jewish man who used to fix roofs and who used to enjoy testing he was known as altica ala right >> it's probably a school of >> school of alta old one right and he would say as He walked past altica zog zogaph say over a chapter of vishay and alta altica abramsky would go and stop share with him the passage and I think for me it goes to show the shramime that he grew up surrounded by and that you know if I'm not mistaken when he was the rov of so again in the previous episode we talked more about his trajectory that he went to eventually goes to yeshivas uh after he when he's well on the way to become a god he goes to yeshiva but he becomes was the Rav of Slutzk and you described that was the the family connection then why end up in that Rabonus but when he was the Rav of Slutzk he used to talk he's talked about it afterwards the year they of the Balabatim you know of the regular Balabatim he said before they came to ask a shila of the rov he said they put on Shabas's clothes and he said that was a standout thing that was something that stood out it was not usual but again and I think he said about something else about them there as well that The Balabatim didn't just want that their children should be Gdali Israel. He said they had ambitions to be so themselves and I think that's important to understand when we talk about this you know much mythologized it was obviously different in each place and it was a huge you know Russia the huge areas different areas but there were places in in that time when the shamim alone I think there's a saying it takes a village to to raise a child well it took a village to raise a child there's a village without a minion and yet you can understand how somehow somewhere there was yurim there ravulba uh re he relates a story. He remembers there were secular Jews in the mirror at that time. Ra came from from Germany. He learned in the mirror. There were secular Jews in the mirror at that time and there was a lady on the street secular Jewish and she saw two kids fighting on the street and she screamed at them lol. How can you be fighting an animal? Unbelievable. A little sh you know there was this element as well as all the downhill progress. And I talk about a context and this is important to understand when you talk about someone who's self-made. There was yur shamim. There was also great threats to his hiddite as well because scholar there even in this little backward village over there where there wasn't even a minion and they had to go in on yam to just travel outside somewhere else and sleep on the floor of the shul has scholar made inroads and he would say later that the put in the poetry levi fortified him strengthened him there which was very interesting now had a beautiful poetic pen. >> It also explains his tremendous aaferities as well. >> Yeah. Oh, you mean the poems of >> po right. Yeah. And so I just want to quote something that his son Rabbi Ezra Abramsky wrote in his biography. He wrote like this. His spiritual growth that means that Abramski spiritual growth and development have to be categorized as a miracle as if angels guarded him to ensure that he developed into what he was intended to be. >> Wow. He had all the reasons in the world not to uh >> besides Hcala. The fact is there wasn't even a minion. Never mind they his parents brought in a Malamad for when he was very young right and then he used to go after I think he went off to but they brought in a mammad. I don't remember exactly how it worked but for the bulk of his teens he learned entirely alone until age 17 said yila year after year. And the amazing thing is to grasp who his contemporaries. People like Raron Cutler, people like Ramosa Feinstein who was who was a contemporary as Rashonas. They were raised by an environment of they had access to other the alter the altar of Slabka was right of the altar. Ramosa Feinstein his father. How do you become a god when you sit in a village where there's not even a minion? How do you become that? and he became that. I think it's important to understand how unprecedented that is that there's no culture to raise you in that way. Yes, we talked about a culture of your shime but you're a shim just will produce more shim more roofers who want to say you know how do you become a lon how do you become a coin how does that happen >> after reaching another turning point in his life and that is when he has and he suggested a right and he suggested to one of the bonum of the day I'm going to allow you to tell pronounce his name because you always correct me when I pronounce his name. His name was Rab Mosaim Yuru Shalomski. >> No, let's start again. >> Yan or Yuru Shalimski >> and his his name was officially director. >> He was the son of the mushik. He was director but be he took Raisha Yonison Yishai whatever he was took a trip across land to to to Erit Israel and he came back because he'd visited Erit Israel and this was in the 19th century and a tremendously arduous journey he was known as Yurushalimski the one who'd been to >> beautiful and he himself was the son-in-law of the rbazbaz being who for the benefit of >> okay >> the rest of Don't confuse two similar names. The Radbas was the end of the beginning of the >> right. >> Okay. And he lived in Mitim then invas but then there was another person who lived invas hundreds of years later and that is the we're talking was David >> Vovski Rvas to Yakov David Ben. >> Yes. I think his he didn't have a surname. He knocked it off. He became known by the name. He wrote a beautiful pirate. >> He was a go. He was a genius >> going and he left Europe to be a Rav in Chicago like I mentioned in the previous recording his Rab didn't not move to his son-in-law moved to Rais Meltzer who was Shiva in Slutzk at the time sent by the alter with 14 Talmidim many of them became Rashivas afterwards among them of Blazinkl and of Henin other great dolim who were part of the 14 and Zmener was the Rashiva and when Baz left he appointed Rais to be the RV I think after there was a very >> beforeky. >> Yes. >> Ah okay that's possible >> and he said how when he came into the job this ro who was this you know old school kabad going and he had something he tested on in public or something there was some interaction there. >> So Raaskkaramsky here comes the important nikuda rakasaramsky did not have a direct chikas to brisk until the point that he got married. Okay. His father-in-law was very impressed by Brrisker and he arranged that they should meet and that started a whole life >> his father-in-law was impressed >> right >> and he became very close to Brisker he wanted his son-in-law who already was an after his marriage to have a shim that started a lifelong connection with it continued on during During World War I when Raphriska had to leave leave Brisk and I think he came to Minsk Rabanski was a RV of a town close by used to leave his house on Sunday stay the whole week. I guess the his rabbitical duties were mainly on Chabas. He should stay with the whole week learning with him and that is is a very important factor in Raasmsky's life because as we'll get to later on is going to be the direct link the Shiva world to brisker there's a big shila on what base brisk is supposed to teach you. Is it supposed to teach you to repeat brisketas or is to teach you to have the approach and have your own original ideas but in any case was like a direct linkage to rapine brisker decades later when there was no one left from that kufura anymore if you're talking about I think was in 1976 it's in the brisker chronology the brisker here in were the grandsons of rahim brriser right David all these the whole familysky was a direct town of so he he was an important link but in any case he becomes the r of uh of as as he mentioned he suffered under the communists he opened up a Torah journal together ze under communist rule I think it was called yagdra >> yagra if just to understand these he opened up I think in 1929 these were the years in which the growing ing an enormous power of Stalin. Right? This wasn't early 1920s when there was much more Hefvelt going on than communist Russia. No, he was already in charge. Stalin was starting his purges that it was immensely dangerous to do anything and he stood up to that regime and in fact he was only released they sentenced him to five years hard labor in Siberia only released and this gives you an idea of what an international figure he was traded for five communists five German communists by the German chancellor under the Vhimmer Republic. So and then he had to go go to England. Just to point out besides opening up a Torah journal and being a RV under communist, he actually instituted a rabbitical organization in Russia of Tor true true Rabonim who know >> yeah together with it had to do with Kabad also. >> They were the ones who essentially held the fort you know for decades afterwards. >> That was part of that. So you mentioned the fact that he was exiled to Sabir. I must interject and tell you a story that I heard probably close to 40 years ago and Rabdan Seagel today is probably in his 90s right at that time he was in his 50s but he was still a famous mush and I was learning in at that time in Gatai and the kadesh was and the mash after him was my wife's uncle pal he was a tremendous sadic and tremendous hon refused to ascend the podium in the yeshiva to give the official smoo of the masg hisim in his room in in the yeshiva but for he wanted that there should be like a uh a majormouth in the bishmish so he invited seal to give the schmoo okay seal said if you're not going up there I'm not going up there so they reached a compromise and uh they took over one of the shs and give out morai and the whole yeshiva packed into the [laughter] And Rabdan Seal is giving him the whole Elo he gave Schmusim every week. Very unbelievable. And uh the interesting part was that the old Masgia who was like 30 years older than him was sitting at the listening to Ra Seal. And uh one of the stories that he told over there was that uh when Abramsky was released and he came to Saul living at the time was Belza and Urban Bel was known to be someone who had had connections right. >> So Abrahamsky meets Saran Belza and he asked him uh why was I exiled to Siber what what a did I do? So bel voice shakes >> right that that's the pious understanding raan bel told him that the word yil can mean also that it desires so the midbar is the co hashem and this is based on the medish that the med says that the midbar came to and he says the whole world is based on people learning to and mitzvah in their every place potentially every country potentially has the possibility of learning to but the midbuck who's going to do the midbar told the midbra in the midbar okay so then Siberia came to and he said what about me where am I going to have this by me? So answered Siberia will be compiled in Siberia >> and it's known that many of the volumes were compiled in Siberia. >> I think he wrote his kadushim on bits of cigarette wrapping or something something like that. >> That was a fascinating story about now just to end off that that period in his I'm just bringing snippets that I recall going through his lifetime. So another fascinating story was when he's released finally from Siberia somewhere along the way on the train. I think I verified this story by someone who heard it either probably heard it from and he said he meets says tell me the exact minute and day that you were released. And uh tells him so he says why are you asking? He says I was sitting with the and we were learning and all of a sudden picks up his head and he says oh they couldn't win over the and he went back to learn and he says that was the minute that they released you. >> Unbelievable. >> That was like a clearish moment at >> Wow. Okay, we've got to just step back one thing. We've missed out in the snippets. It's perhaps the most important snippet. He's there learning on his own. 17 years old. >> How does he get to Yeshiva? And he gets to Yeshiva because of the great it was he was literally head-hunted, recruited. He was known throughout the region as an iloy. They knew in an outline people in the whole area knew in an outlying village there is an ilo. Someone was sitting there yaya learning without anyone else and eventually the nadikas heard about him. Rael Baranchic who was a great son-in-law of the alto of Naduk went and personally got him to come and he said come to the yeshiva come to the the you know the nadok and that is the most amazing thing because it was nadakas who had the great pioneering pioneering spirit they went out and and built yeshivas from nothing from scratch all over the place they didn't wait for people to come they actively went and recruited the Jewish youth they rescued him and within he was there for a year in Naduk and he was very grateful to them and he got from as he said of no and I think he went on there afterwards it was tells and possibly was it me I don't remember I don't remember we have to the exact progression and he you know he collects along the way but this sets up for me this whole thing because despite the role of the yeshivas and the great role they played he was selfmade and that is the amazing thing to cycle forward all the way from the early years of the 20th century all the way to 1951 when he arrives in there at Tisurel the self-made godle and then heads the yeshiva world okay so now we are up to the stage of that he was a rv in communist Russia and then exiled to Siberia one nuda that we have to mention over here in the context of is that while he was in Russia he was offered the prominent position of the chief rabbi of Petikva >> replacing who do we I think it's replacing first of all the chief rabbi anyway was remove kat who was the rashiv of lamja as well and the chief rabbi I think afterwards it was raitron who was the son-in-law of the of the raach and I think he was appointed he was elected to become the successor they waited with this the impleation of this election until the Russian government would allow him to leave and they did not allow him to leave and there's a lot of correspondence It's between Petikva and Roas Ramsky and it didn't work out because he was exiled to Siberia. Okay. So then he's released from Siberia, goes to London and you described that in the previous podcast and he leaves London in >> and he comes to Eritis. This is like supposedly his retirement years. >> Correct. He was actually was 65 years old. He pensioned off the the London based in he was able to retire on that and he came to Arit and his stuff is I don't know one the typical Alias stories dinks have not much changed there was a strike the dock workers in England so he arrived and for the first three months he had no furniture he moved into he'd previously bought in >> someone came from banam to England and sold them it was a tger who is a famous kablan here in >> so we're sitting just so you might be readers of your listeners the podcast podcast over here sitting with a couple of miles of where that would have been in terms of you know ju just across Eurite for gun and he arrives and he very quickly emerges as a major figure because he's world famous and I think comes to him and many Gdali >> come several things happen okay some in the political sphere and some in the Torah world and I think it's important to mention this part of his tremendous contribution to the Torah narrative. So besides for the Askana's part, okay, we're going to get to that. We have to understand there's a yeshiva that started in bra by Isaak the alteratka's son-in-law is sharak passes away relatively a short time after he establishes the yeshiva. Yeshiva is taken over by his son-in-law. He received the yeshiva. The entire fundraising was on his shoulders. My father-in-law used to describe to me used to stay months the majority of the year in collecting funds for the yeshiva. That's how the yeshiva survived. The yeshiva needed a functioning rashiva to give shiatska abramski rose to the challenge. You're not talking about today that you can hop on a bus to bunra and be in bra in 45 50 minutes right lived in bagan he didn't move to bra but he used to travel every week to bra and stay for a few days in slabka and give the sholi he was there for 25 years there's a whole generation of and today who grew under agaransky and as I said before was the direct link to Raphim Brisker and just to mention a few names to you Zilstein. >> Yeah, he would have been there those times. >> If you going to Zilstein's office, you see a massive picture of Hatkari behind him. That's his godly schering for sure. I remember right you have I don't know if you knew Rabinovski. >> Yes. I mean tremendous lambd or from the kaz part he once told someone that was he's the kui a role model for him >> and many other grew under among them by the way who's got the governor today >> right well can I just jump in over there and say because this duality and the dual role that he plays as both we're about to see the political side we're about to see the political side how he defends and shepherds the growing Torah world as well as acting as this rashisha was I think best summarized by again son writes quotes who said that the rashisha init used to call both and what a brilliant brilliant way of looking at it he was he made sure there was the wherewithal political financial to continue the existence and growth of the yeshiva world. And he was a rashiva as well, which is such an an incredibly unusual thing because we understand that Rabonus over the last couple of hundred years has shrunk at one time. You talk about the traditional title of Arav was two things I've based in Mifa, right? Going back, this was a regular thing 100 200 years ago. Rabonim were both the based in the head of the basin the po of the town the leader of the leader of the town and the mut had yeshiva as well and the roles have become split because raon raonim right let's talk about this is rashivas and there's raonim and here he was the basin the rasha the leader of the generation the spokesman outside and the finance as well it was quite impressive >> just as a side nuda which you see you know you're always talking about Ramski as the the strong like fearless leader >> as I described to you before was the rashiva ofk he's allowing or inviting to give the shi okay so when he's in it's okay there's no one around but then he comes back to so is sitting in his office and who's going to give up the sholi it's oframsky right of hamskarramsky every year for 25 years He's walking to the bish. He stops at the office. He says >> beautiful. When he moved to Bagan, he was a titanic poer. The local balabatim asked him to give a balabatim daf shir or whatever it was. He said yes, but only if the rav agrees. He went over to the rav of the area and he said can I give the sh and this the rav I forget his name laughed. He said you the god. He says but over here >> I'm a balabos right and you're the and he had that respect also for that says so much about who he was and another thing I think that says a lot about his understanding of bonra this is again exceptional given how unique he was in his development he understood there was a rashiva who came to him and said to him he wants to open new yeshiva surkill said to him do you have money for a kitchen do you have enough funds to to you know you to to dining room from day one and he said because if not is not a yeshiva and then he said why the niv says what's a masmid someone who eats at the right time sleeps at the right time and learns at the right time if the yeshiva has no kitchen said the yeshiva isn't built for masidim >> wow they need to eat in the right time >> correct but what does that say to you to me that what that says is that it was he understood that the of the world is not going to be based on tremendous is already enough msira nephesh to learn the the pre-war model of bahim is starving you know literally starving to learn to it will not work only if this is a system that's going to be a system for ordinary people to become great and it won't work and that was particularly understanding but I think frame there's let's just give a flesh to this we talked about this thing his role in creating the yeshiva system you know teaching and also you know standing up against the draft which is an issue that continues to this day. He did it in the in as the head of an organization called the Vadishas. Today if you go to Guula you'll see his little pokey office on the side of Malaki which is the Vadishas. It belies the fact today it's well now that there's no law. The original function of Vishas before becoming the intermediary between the government and the army and the yes is yeshivas was it was the main fundraiser for the yeshivas >> and that that continued that started from Europe and continued for many years it's only in the last few decades it's probably in the last probably 40 years that function ceased from the varivas >> just to give numbers by the way in 1961 this is Katka was appointed was already in the position of the head of Adi yeshivas that it was it had 108 yeshivas in 1966 150 receiving support including 84 talas and it was wallto-wall the shalmim all the way it was across the board all the yeshivas it was the main source of money and he himself said without the vad that unifies the shiva as you know into one bacham would have been ded drafted he said and that was his pronouncement that we have in an age we can't have individuals a system needs to be coherent and he was head of that system [music] it's very fascinating I think I told it to you off the record but if an historian would come like 200 years later and try to figure out who the main figures of the Torah world were you have to see who is the head of who's the head of and who's the head of and filled all these roles when he came to Edo. >> That's a forgotten story >> and that that is fascinating because he came from right it shouldn't have been that way but it clearly there was a certain vacuum here in Bransonsky filled that vacuum just to say a few words about that vacuum. So we have the tuf of the hanhoga of the briskav and the khan after they were nifa after briskarov was nifa later raan kutler was actually running the show both in arisol and in America ravanc was traveling like they used to call him the first transatlantic rashiva because he was the rashiva in in lakewood and officially because he was a son-in-law of malman who was the rash of right so he was balancing the act on two scenes. Raan Cutler passed away there was a vacuum until the Kufa of Shak and the stipler later on in during those years of Abrahamski was the main figure in he filled all these functions that you're talking about including talking to the government including he was the one I know that a lot of maybe some of the listeners won't be happy about this but he was the one who asked Mosha Dian to return the control over Harabis to the wak to the Jordanian walk. >> I did not know that. >> He did not want Jews >> walking on Harabit. >> Well, hold on. But let's be in all fairness, he was knocking or pushing on a door that was very easy to open. The Mosha himself did not want it, right? >> Right. I think yes, he definitely Mosha Dian that was not controversial to Mosha was looking for this. But I think it's important to understand about that time and in 1968 this was a very sensitive time in terms of the draft issue in terms of drafting Baham into into the army because it was before the bean years came 1977 it was it was in the pump of the army 1968 the Israeli army had achieved this amazing victory. It was so difficult to to you know to withstand the propaganda and and the lure of this of this glamour of the generals and of these marching troops and of these young handsome soldiers in the olive uniforms. And it drew Bakar in and this immortal threat potentially to the existence of the of the Torah world which eventually till today is now the center of the Torah world what exists here. And in that year we have a committee headed by Mosha Dian was convened on the draft and to decide the future of trying to draft the Baham and he tried to he tried to draft them by first saying that he had a plan to give back the West Bank Hudan Shamron to the Arabs right and you know a proper of give back the Harabas and he rang Doramsky and he said I just need the Baham for a few days we want to have an operation to round up to empty all the Arab armaments from the West Bank get rid of all of them and then give it back the land back and Dabsky said to him this powerful general he was a war hero right he says to him no that's all he said he literally said that end of call they sat down in this meeting with the defense ministers together with the delegation of Rabonim and Diana Bramsky and Mosha Dian says to the Rabonim is it not more important to defend is it not important to defend Israel Diana Bramsky said to him yes but but it's more important to to have the Torah and why right in other words he said I'll prove to And he cleverly said he used his knowledge of Tanakh. He said from Yeshua because Yeshua is told twice he's within literally the opening say Yeshua Yeshua is told once that you're going to be strong and inherit the land. The next pag said be strong very strong courageous to keep the Tyra. >> I'm going to shock you now. I once heard an old recording from Abramsky at Mashas >> telling over this V. I hear his voice in my head. So that's what he told Moshan. That's what he told Mosha and he said to him then he took out he read the Yamian tarnis about the famous the famous Shami that says that Bara revolt failed because Bara had his anchor of Elahui whose tarnis protected for three years protected the whole of betar and then Bara killed him with a kick. Kataransky told the defense minister the generation if you hurt them if you kick them what will be left of you and that gets back to this thing over here that he's that he has this firm belief that they're not against the army they're pro defending Israel they're pro the Torah the existence of the yeshivas is vital to the existence of the Torah that's what was coming out over here and so to me the takeaway from this is that the role if you want sum it up. Perhaps his greatest achievement is navigating the years of Israeli triumphalism and the attempt to draft them until essentially one year after Dan Bramky's Nifa who takes over takes over. At that point the threat of the draft disappears for decades basically because it will not threaten to draft the issue. And so for me the self-made godle if I want to end with the one one thing in which you understand dabsky this self-made godle only as it were went to yeshivas as a finishing school he is the one who says an amazing thing his son writes he says in the previous generation gdelia tora were the backbone of the generation and an orphan generation when there are no more he said right the bane shivas are the backbone of the generation what does he mean by that I think what he means by that of course he knew there's in each generation. He was one of them. He understood that the emergence of the postwar Tory world is the emergence of a new fragile. That is the existence of the that holds it together. Even if many members are lower level than before the war, what we've created and revived and it's his leadership during that crucial time post, you know, in the early 50s to the rise of the right-wing block which essentially until our days basically has more or less protected the Torah world. It is hegraky who shephered it in those crucial years. Thank you for listening to behind the times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time.