CHAZARAH - Menachos Daf 57 | "Nothing but the Daf" with R' Eli Stefansky

[music] >> Good morning, RABBI BOYS. HI. WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE HERE TODAY? WHO IS SUPPOSED to be here today? Boys, I will hold it up and follow base four lines from the bottom. All my Rabbi Yummy. There's a Sugya of starting in act you when you start something Does Does the whole masa Um what's the word I'm looking for? Do we consider the masa? Do we give you credit for the masa? What's the word? No. You put the starter the leavening agent into on top of the dough and then it became you didn't mix it and do anything. That's considered these are the that we said you have to be careful with the mincha not to make comments. You might see Shabbos is you see something very similar when it comes to Shabbos. Shabbos you put a steak on a grill and you walk away. You're high up. So two over here you put the leavening agent on the in the in the flower and you walk away you're high up. Ask the more let's let's let's see if this is true. You might see Shabbos >> [clears throat] >> you got to be high up. Are you actually high up when it comes to Shabbos when you just put it on the grill and walk away? If you put a steak on top of a grill you can be high up. If you flip it over you're high up. If you flip it over you're high up and if you didn't flip it over you're so you see that you have to take more action. It's not enough just to put it on there once and walk away. In our Sugya when you put the leavening agent it's not enough. It's only for Shabbos. When it comes Shabbos, you have to flip it over. But when it comes to because that's In other words, it's enough just to put it on for that half. You don't have to sit there and then and stoke the coals, I don't know what. You put it on, you have it on that half. Yes, you have to flip it over cuz that's how you make a steak. Otherwise, the other side is going to be raw. But when it comes to the leavening, all you need to do is put it in once and walk away and you're liable. It's the same idea. By a steak, you put it on once and you walk away, you're liable for that half. And then you you flip it for the other half. And and you have to have both halves in order for it to happen. But that's that's just the way a steak works. It's one to one. The only way a steak as we're going to see soon, if you do one half of a steak, it's not it's not it's not edible. It's not something that people eat. You don't eat Have you ever eaten from the top of a steak that's well-done on this side but not on the other side? It doesn't work like that. It's not the way you do it. Yes. It's not You want to call it bishul, not It's not how you eat a steak. Steak is on both sides. But but when it comes to leavening, it's enough just to put it in and walk away and it'll it'll make it chametz. We just said and we're repeating, if you put a steak on the on the coals, you flip it, you're liable. If you didn't, you're not liable. What's the case? If you can't eat it, it's not edible, she of course you're not liable. But if maybe the is even without flipping it, it's also edible, just it's not as good. So why do you have to flip it? Why are you liable without flipping it? There's a concept called Michael Ben D'rusai. Michael Ben D'rusai This was a a robber. His name was D'rusai. And he he would eat it raw. Very very rare. Very rare. Rare to the point it was a third third part. I don't even know if that's what rare is today. 1/3 of the typical cooking cook time. One 1/3. Now, this is a site. If the only way to do it is so you got a third on one side and and if you flip it over you get a third on the other side. Like a marshmallow. Yes, there's a concept called a site. But that's only if you do it on both sides. One side site is is garnished. You can't literally searing it for a second. That's garnished. Oh my rubber. If you are able to roast one figs worth dried fig The voice I If you have one figs worth of nicely done. More more than a site. is blue. This is already red. Yeah? Rare. Rare. It's already the next next level up. But it's the size of a fig. Even on one side in one area you good. I don't understand. Take this fig and break it up into two or three areas. And tell me so what's the why can't you have three three spots? Yeah, one two three like this. Three spots. But it's not and I'll I'll it to you. I'll prove it to you There's a concept called tzeruf. I can take three different areas and put them all pretend they're all one place. What's none? How could they have kosher chiyuv? If you take a drill, take a small little drill bit, and you drill a little tiny hole, you're chiyuv you're chiyuv on Shabbos for biting you're building. Says the Gemara chiddush we have to understand what the what the case is. Here again, eila me makom echad. You drill the tiny hole somewhere. Kosher to my chiyuv? What what You didn't accomplish anything with the small hole. Ela lav bishnayim ushlosha mekoymos, the chazal detzeruf. We're talking about Sometimes I don't know if you ever built anything, but it happened to me many times. You don't have the right drill bit. And you try to make like a larger hole. So let's say you try to poke something in a in a piece of concrete. I don't know what. So you make one hole, two You make a few holes, and then you you pop it out. Ela lav bishnayim ushlosha mekoymos, the chazal detzeruf. So you see that you can take one drill one little hole, in other words, times three equals one giant hole that together it's considered a hole. Yeah, it by itself one small hole is nothing. Over here also, one little piece of a fig is not enough. But three pieces of fig in three different areas of the steak that are well done or more than kimai hu bimechubal it should be nistaraf to one fig. Says the Gemara layla me makom echad. There's only one small hole. And also like when you do construction, a lot of times you use a small little bit. Those little bits they do things. The point is you need a you need sometimes you need a small bit, and that's why you're over. But you can't bring a riot to a fig's worth of of of well done meat. Vei kidamrei Omar Rava, afilu bishnayim ushlosha mekoymos, Rava holds that if you have a total of one fig's worth well done, even though it's spread out in three places, but the the total amount is a fig's worth. That's also That's also considered cooked. This is a freebie momish five lines of freebie word for word. Drill a very small hole you what's the case one time only what could it accomplish must be one or two places this is the He only drilled one hole. It's we're not talking about this is for the door of the of the the key give all the key. So for this you must see this it's very very important. It says any says what if you would remove those two words? So what I learned two things I have two words I'm going to learn two two from these two words. There's a positive says don't make we already saw the mission and the when we were learning the mission of the mission brings a positive how do you know you're not a so I explained over there mission explain it's talking about before the mission. And then the we're talking about after the mission. Now they were saying I would think how do I know if I combine the two things before the I have the in there I have the in there how do I know that it it doesn't that there's a to make it so that one word we got mincha. The entire thing. How do I know the call the word call all minchas. Ashes the kodesh. What I do with ashes the kodesh? Shair of psula. This is also very interesting alacha. This issur of making a mincha chometz is only when the mincha is kosher. Let's say you took it out of the mishkan. Let's say the mincha is tamei. No. No issur chometz. We cannot have a chometz as a shair of chayev as a psula patur. I just saw an interesting chab from the Brisker Rav. That he says, "What do you mean tamei?" Tamei any any carbon that's tamei is really not tamei if you put it on the tzitzis meratza. We learned that tzitzis gets rid of the tumah. He says, "Yeah, it gets rid of the tumah when you put it on the mizbeach. But over here it's before you put it on the mizbeach. Over here you're over issur chometz when it's tamei before you put it on the mizbeach." So it's like it's it's like a a chab. Yeah? There's a kind just to explain the kind of tzitzis meratza when you put it on the mizbeach. A carbon chometz is a shair chayev as a psula patur. If you cannot do chometz to something that has a psul on it. If if it went out of the mishkan, then it's pasul, then you're not over on chometz. What did Rava papa What about chimsah v'yatzas v'chazar v'chimsah mal? You you created chometz. Now we know we learned yesterday, what does it mean just the stam pasul psat? What does it mean chometz and then you made it chometz? Could you make something chometz twice in a row? The answer is not really. If you make it a different type of chometz. You do one of the four things. You you machmitz by the lisha, by the aricha, by the ktifa, by the afiya. You do another So you did chometz. No, we did learn yesterday. That's exactly what we learned yesterday. And that that was yesterday's sugia. That that works by mom after mom. Doesn't work here there. Okay? But there is no chometz. You yourself cannot make chometz twice in a row on the And the same action we learned. Chimsah v'yatzas v'chazar v'chimsah mal. if you did comments? And it went outside of the Migdash. So now the some sort of soul here. And now it comes back in the Migdash. You told me that once it's possible, you can't make more comments. So then what's the question now? Now, given the possible you say it already became possible. The simple understanding is once it went out, it's out. So so once it's it went out, it became possible. You can't add another that's it. It's locked out for making a comment. You just told me. It has to be something that's kosher and not possible. Once it went outside, it's possible. You can't add another comment. But listen to this. You're not for a double That's it. You're locked out. You can't make more comments. Listen to this, says Rashi. Once it's comments, then it doesn't have the lost a little bit of kosher to it. You cannot You can't You can't make something possible you would say if it's not a 100% kosher. The is not on it. And if the is not on it, then you could do comments after comments. What locks out a second comments? Something that makes it possible. But it's not possible. Why? Because it's it's already possible from the comments. No Somebody took a and made it comments. What happened now? It's possible a little bit. Once it's possible, you can't make it possible by taking it outside of the Migdash. It's already possible. I take it out of the What do I do? I took something that's possible. I made it more possible. So if I can't make it more possible, now I can add another comments to it. If I take time it time it If I take something that's totally kosher and I take it out of the Migdash, I made it possible you would say. Possible you would say, I cannot make comments to it. It's already possible you would say. But if Yotzei doesn't apply to it, why doesn't apply to it? Because it's a little bit chametz already. And if it's chametz already, I can't add another psul Yotzei. So now I could add another chametz to it. Let's go backwards. We learned yesterday in the Mishnah, you could add four chametz's to one Mincha. By me kneading it, I was over on chametz. Then a minute later, I braided it. I'm over another chametz. Then I add water to it. I'm over another chametz. I could add chametz on top of a chametz. We just learned the Halacha that if I take a Mincha outside of the Beis Hamikdash, it becomes pasul cuz I took it out. Now I can't do chametz to it. It's done. It's pasul. It's garbage. It's it's treif. Treif kaza, whatever you want to call it. It's garbage. You're going to go, "What do you have to give me chametz? I'm not over on chametz." Now, what happened was I made one chametz. Great. By making chametz, I made it a little bit pasul. A little bit. A little bit. A little bit pasul. A little bit. A little bit pasul to the point where if I take it outside of the Beis Hamikdash, it's not I can't put Yotzei on it. I can't do pigul to it. I don't know what. I can't do anything to it because I made it a little pasul by making chametz. A Mincha can't be chametz. So since the Yotzei doesn't apply to it, I I ignore. So now it's like a regular Mincha that I could add another chametz to it. Add another chametz. I could add four times chametz to it. And therefore, the chametz law You want to see we should really see Rashi inside. Where's Rashi inside? Where was it? It was on top. Oh, here. I deal with the chametz. The law of chametz Yotzei. The law of Kedusha Gemura he says Rashi. It loses some of its value. It loses value. It loses value. Then the only thing that you could put on it is one so-called chametz. And then you could add another chametz to it. But the the law of Yotzei doesn't apply to it. And then at the end of the day, take all by Mari. If up to the back up the ramp but you didn't put it on onto the fire. You took it up. Yeah, the of the milk. Are you locked out of making comments? You made a comment on top, but maybe it's already too late. You already what you had to be you brought it up. It's even a lotion of to to bring closer and you you did. And you did so. I do but at the end of the day I have to put it on the flame. since you didn't put it on the fire, you still have the ability to make a and be over the take. It's going to be call them in that what? We learned before that it's be even before before became before you did so you're you're over on comments I should have cleared that share which is a step later being marked with on the normally what do you mean therefore I should have cleared that share which is a step later There are two new items that are possible to to make comments. One of them is which is a minute that we bring together with the island and men bring flour you bring wine together with the island and is there a a of to make sure it doesn't become comments? says that's says no it's referring to the opponent that there's a issue to make opponent the 12 breads that we bring on every day on the there's an issue to make them comments the same as we were learning up until now this is opponent which the is going to flip the is going to say doesn't say the one that says the one that says opponent that's the opponent that's the opponent that's the opponent It's a bunch of oil. >> What is minchas socha? There's no water. Minchas socha may pare say. It's a bunch of oil. There's a lot of oil. There's three lug of oil and there's no need for water. Sometimes when you put a little oil, so if you ever take a lot of flour, put a little oil, it's impossible to knead it. But if there's a lot of oil, then you can knead it and if you knead it, knead with a K, then you don't need water. You don't need to introduce water and the and may pare say machmitzim. Fruit juice doesn't create chometz. Now, don't take this literally. As he points out in the beginning of the perek, he says over here I that it just mean it's not full chometz but it's chometz nuksha. It's a it's a inferior type of chometz. Okay. But I think that the sfarim actually hold that may pare say what? Matzah shira, etc. Okay, fine. But the question is, what's the question? The question is, how could I if lechem apanim doesn't even have water, how could I even make it chometz? There's no way to make it chometz. What I'm using oil and oil doesn't make it chometz. Amora Kish Oima oira Rab Yesa Gvili minchas socha migabla mayim shira. You're permitted to add water if you want to. And in that case, they add water, not only does it become chometz, some some say it even it makes it worse chometz, like it's a stronger chometz cuz it's together with oil and and water is kosher. So that's the case. We're talking about he added a little bit more water. Asks the Gemara kasha, lechem apanim midas hayoveshi. This is for liquid. This is for liquid. This plastic one is for flour. So says the Gemara, I don't understand something. Lechem apanim midas hayoveshi. You're trying to measure an issaron with this. Ushmana leira Rab Akiva d'amar midas hayoveshi in a skacha. This, Raboisai, has zero kedusha. This is not a kli shares. This guy is a difference between liquid and solid. The solid, according to Rab Akiva, doesn't have kedusha at all. It's plastic. It's garnished. So, so what's the question? As you're making the lechem uponim, at what point are you making your chametz? By putting into this kli it doesn't give it kedusha. So, so stam you're making chametz at home, that's not a problem. No issur d'Oraisa. When does it become kodesh? On the table. When you put it on the table it becomes kodesh. Kodesh. Here. At this point, when he puts it in, boom, it's already too late. You can't make chametz. You can't make a god bread. You can't make chametz. There was always this contradiction. So, we have to do this, one of these famous things. So, it's a little confusing because we're talking about the bottom. So, let's start with the bottom. It's not confusing at all. I'm just saying that usually I go with the top. But the our my menschy guys only work on the bottom. Rebbi Akiva says that this pasuk comes to comes to say that lechem uponim you can't make chametz. Rebbi Akiva says minchas it's coming to minchas The problem Rebbi Akiva holds and we're going to stick with this. Rebbi Akiva holds that this kli doesn't become kodesh. If this kli doesn't become kodesh, how in the world could he say that lechem uponim you shouldn't make it chametz? There's no way to make lechem uponim chametz. It's only when you put it in. So, in may have to switch it around. That's why I'm switching it around. It's Rebbi Akiva that says that it's minchas you shouldn't make chametz. And it works out beautifully because Rebbi Yosi Hagelili, we're going to show in a second, he holds yovesh has kedusha. This has kedusha. This has kedusha. Oh. If this has kedusha, then I have to be careful with the lechem uponim not to make not to make it chametz. B'eivoch. Rebbi Akiva omer Rebbi Yosi minchas Rebbi Akiva omer okay, it's Rebbi Akiva holds it's minchas okay. Now. Rebbi Yosi Hagelili, now how do I know that Rebbi Yosi Hagelili says that that dry goods that the dry measuring cup for dry goods is called it. How do I know? Because it only holds like one of the one of the one of the one of the are in the same they're in codes. They say the same thing. They what? The Sanyo. I am shocked that he got to show some You should be the column. My little takes the special mixture. He smears it and he makes the with the mixture he makes the column cutters. They become cutters. What's the plastic rubber boy say? Yogish. The see-through thing is liquid. Okay, so we have three sheets here. It's very simple. It's three sheets. Here's here's the question. The way you did it is not 100% accurate, but for it's hard to to describe in a in a picture. The question is always when a clay has ganesha. Let's say this clay has ganesha. This this for sure has ganesha, right? The the law according to everybody has ganesha. The question is where? Where is the ganesha? Only in the inside or in the outside as well? The might ask you me, no. What if I pour water on the outside like this? Did the water now become cutters? It touched only the outside of my clay. How? Cuz I filled it up very high and then it fell over the the the the the the the the side and it touched the side. Cutters or not cutters? That's my question here. So, we have one sheet of so far that says that this yogish is zero. We have a sheet of that the that the law the liquid is going to be cutters on the inside and the outside. And then we have in between sheets. Or sheet. Let's see. According this is and this is Rebbi Akiva Eiger. Rebbi Akiva says that this guy right over here is kodesh inside and out. So, I don't know how to do that. I'm going to put a sticker inside and outside. I don't know if this is going to work. Okay, like this. Both. That's Rebbi Akiva Eiger. That's Rebbi Akiva. He holds there's only one kedusha over here. And this guy one. But outside is nothing. Only one. And now you have a second shita that holds that this is a this is a liquid only one. And this guy is all by himself according to Rebbi Yonasan, the only kedusha is inside the liquid kli, zero in the dry kli. This shita says there's inside the dry kli and he's the most machmir. It has and and the the liquid kli has both inside and outside. So, maila Rebbi Yonasan if you go back to this Rebbi Akiva Eiger holds like Rebbi Yonasan like Rebbi Akiva. That what? That the yavesh has some kedusha. Look, it has kedusha inside the kli according to show this way. Okay. The same thing by the two by the two breads. We're going to come back to this also. You have to bake the breads. When does it become kodesh? Bikur Lashon. After te'ufena, once you bake it then become Lashon. Putting it in a vessel in a measuring cup doesn't give it any kedusha. I'm also saying the same halacha in the effort. But my commentary gives us a machlokes. But it's on the word oisam. Rebbe Yochanan says oisam l'muta midas shiyur b'chutz. It's mashma only in the inside. But that the dry one doesn't have any kedusha on the outside. That's why there's only one sticker here. There is kedusha on the inside. Rebbe Yochanan says midas shiyur kulo. This is Look at this. This is a piece of plastic that has zero kedusha, not in the inside not in the outside. L'eitzach kulo l'muta. And you don't need to talk about it at all. It's a It's a It's a It's a vachadik kli. It's a garbage. Kitzach kulo l'muta midas lach m'bchutz. The only pasuk I need is oisam. That the the liquid kli only has kedusha on the inside but not on the outside. Oh. So if you look over here, this is a very rudimentary thing. But on the top it says Rebbe Yochanan says Rebbe Yochanan says the same halacha. The what? Me- Yavesh has kedusha on the inside. And that's what we said. That's why lachma panim that you measure with this dry kli does have kedusha and you have to be careful not to make it chametz. And when it comes to liquid, it has kedusha on the inside and the outside. So Rebbe Yochanan says Rebbe Yochanan says the same. What does Rebbe Akiva say? Rebbe Akiva says we saw before. That's why Rebbe Akiva cannot say that it's lachma panim you have to be careful with because this has zero kedusha. Oh. But Rebbe Akiva says something else. This has zero kedusha. But the lach has kedusha inside and outside, too. So we have a third shita. This is different than this shita because over here, the yavesh has little kedusha. And over here, the yavesh according to Rebbe Akiva has zero kedusha. It has kedusha inside and outside, two stickers, and zero kedusha on this. So maila says the Gemara l'Rebbe Akiva v'Rebbe Yochanan Rebbe Shimon amar d'var echad l'Rebbe Yochanan. We spoke about Rebbe Yochanan. Rebbe Yochanan is this shita the over here. But look, they're very similar because the yavish they they both hold zero kedusha on the yavish. So maybe they're saying the same thing. So what's the answer? It's obvious the answer. Over here they're very different. In the liquid they're different. According to Rebbi Akiva, in the liquid kli there's kedusha on the inside and the outside. And according to Rebbi Yonasan there's only kedusha on the inside. As the Gemara learns from Rebbi Akiva Mishum Rebbi Shimon says the Gemara, the answer is Mishum Rebbi Shimon says Rebbi Akiva says Rebbi Akiva they're not saying the same thing because they're very different when it comes to the liquid kli. One says there's only kedusha on the inside Rebbi Akiva says the kedusha on the inside and the outside. It's the starting point. Do you say this is nothing should be nothing there's no there's no even have a minute has kedusha and we may have the word of some to add to to take off something else or no, this does have kedusha and have to remove here. He holds this has kedusha just the word of some comes to tell me that there's no kedusha on the outside but therefore the lach for sure has inside and outside. Says the Gemara Rebbi Akiva says Rebbi Akiva we forgot something. How do you mix this? How do you mix the lach of the panim? Look at this. You mix it in a in a mixing bowl. That mixing bowl is is a kli shaaros. The lach of the panim the lach of the panim you have to mix it somewhere. And if you mix it in a in a beisa in a in a in a in a bowl, that bowl has tremendous kedusha and therefore you have to be careful not to make it chametz. Even according to Rebbi Akiva. Okay, Rebbi Akiva says you see this? No kedusha when you measure it. Yeah, but what do you do after you measure it? You have to put it in the mixing bowl. And that mixing bowl has kedusha. Says the Gemara the lach who and it's and it's considered a a liquid kli. Rebbi Akiva says the lach who and it's liquid and that has kedusha that's it's kli shaaros. Says Rebbi Akiva going to the lach of the kadvolya. No, look at the right side. He he he did the lisha you're right. If he did it in the left side in a bowl it would have kedusha something be careful not to make a comment. Talking about that he put it on a piece of leather or something. A second ago we learned the realness and says I'll prove it to you from the two breads of of Shavuos. There's no dusha. Like you're going to college you'll be starting the college. You know why over there is no dusha because he used a weekday clear something that doesn't have dusha. But maybe there is a dusha. Over here by lechem uponim we could we could we could be doichek and say oh, he did the leisha on a piece of leather not on a klisharis. Why? The Torah never said I want you to knead it in a klisharis. You decided to do that. There's no there's no isur to do it on a piece of leather. Elie Sorin But but it comes to the style lechem when the Torah says mefurash What that means use a measuring cup. Measure it inside of the sisorin. You can't answer oh maybe you used a vach thing like like a piece of leather. The Torah says mefurash to use the the kodesh and the mailer raboisai. Have a wonderful day. Merit the zchus of spreading Torah throughout the world. Sponsor a shiur today. mdy.sponsor.com or [email protected]. [music]