Menachos Daf 94

Okay, daf tzadi dalid, Wednesday's daf. Baruch Hashem, we get to finish the 10th perek today and start the 11th perek. But before that, let's pick it up at the Mishnah at the bottom of tzadi gimel amud bet. Chomer b'smicha m'bitznufa. There is a chomra in the halachos of smicha over the halachos of tznufa. U'bitznufa m'bismicha. And likewise, the opposite. And what are those respective chomras? She'eichud mayna flachol hachover. There's a halacha that when shutfin bring a korban nedava, one of those shutfin can do the tznufa for all the other guys. But that's a halacha that's limited to tznufa. V'ein echud someayach l'chol hachover. If you've got a bunch of guys bringing one korban, one can't do smicha for the others. But rather, they all take turns to do the smicha separately on that korban nedava. Now, the Gemara's going to bring psukim, but just conceptually to understand why would tznufa be done by one of them while smicha is done by all of them? It could be it gets into whether or not tznufa and smicha are chovas korban or chovas gavra. This is how the Chazon Ish explains the difference between them. In other words, if you hold it's a chovas a korban, as long as one of them does it, it should be okay. That would be the tznufa. it's a chovas gavra, then every one of them who's bringing the korban has an obligation to do the smicha. The very first piece of the Sfas Emes in Temura assumes for davar pashut that it's a chovas a korban to do the smicha. But the reason why every member of the chavura has to do their own smicha because each one is being someayach his chelek of the korban. That's how he understands it. But the tznufa could be done by one of those shutfin to take care of all the other guys. The Sfas Emes learns that it's a special din about shutfin in a korban and it's not shlichus. But the Chazon Ish is madayek from Rashi back on samach alef that a shliach could do tznufa. Okay, but continues the Mishnah, chomer bitznufa. Where is there going to be a chomra in tznufa? She'tznufa neheges b'korbanos achud u'v'korbanos tzibur. Moving over to amud alef, b'chaim u'v'shchutim. You do tznufa with both dead animals and with chaim. You may remember back over there on samach alef when we talked about the kivsei atzaros on Shavuos, there is a tznufa m'chaim. U'v'davar she'yesh bo ruach chaim u'v'davar she'ein bo ruach chaim. Meaning, tznufa is being done on animals as well as the lechem. U'mashe'ein kein b'smicha that you don't do smicha on anything other than animals. And you have to work out the masha in came the smicha in regard to the carbonus yachid versus tzibur because it doesn't seem to be true. But the simple way to get out of the kasha is that masha in came the smicha is specifically talking about the ruach chaim with the masha in by ruach chaim distinction. Zogt the Gemara tanu rabonon carbonai his carbon lerabos kol baalei carbon lesmicha. Interestingly, it's a ribui and not a miut like we were learning until now with the word carbonai. But it's coming to be marbeh that every one of the shutfim of the carbon needs to do their eggenus smicha. Now, sheyachol I might have thought baalei din hu matsnufeh she'einus rabah beshchutin. That tnufeh is done with the animal nach shchiten. But yet still nismata bechavrin, it has less people can do it because tnufeh is only done by one person. So smicha she'einus rabah beshchutin because you only do smicha while the animal is still alive, not on the dead animal. Eina din she'yitmai bechavrin? So certainly there should be less people able to do it. Tal mud leimar carbonai lerabos kol baalei carbon lesmicha that everybody who has a stake in this carbon does their eggenus smicha. Precht Gemara but tzirab tnufeh bechavrin. Why don't we just say that all the shutfim should do the tnufeh mikol bechavrin? Umas dicha she'einus rabah beshchutin yet still nisrabah bechavrin because the smicha has all of the shutfim doing the smicha. So tnufeh she'einus rabah beshchutin eina din she'yisrabah bechavrin? So based on the kal vachomer itself, we should say that the shutfim should all do the tnufeh. To which the Gemara says mishum dilay efshar. It's not shayach for the shutfim to do the tnufeh because heichi re'avei linful kullei mahadi adadi. If they would all do it together, literally all picking up the animal and waving it around together at the same time, kohaveh chatzitza. Each one would be a chatzitza to the other one. And the way Rashi understands it is that that one guy's hands are going to be matsik with the other guy's hands. And leinif velahadra veleinif, and letting them take turns, well, that's not going to work because tnufeh umara Rachmana, it has to be a singular tnufeh, one action. Veloi tnufeis, and not multiple times there's a tnufeh. So it's clear that has to only be one of them. And therefore we're not willing to use this kal vachomer to say that shutfim could all be meinaf. Now, on the point that kohaveh chatzitza, Rashi in the Savyad himself asks the kasha that when it comes to the tnufeh of a shlamim, the kohein puts his hands underneath the hands of the baalim, and we don't seem to be worried about the chatzitza between the kohein's hands and the carbon. So why all of a sudden is our Gemara worried about hatzitzah but not back in Sukkah 21? And Rashi himself answers that the ikkaret nefah is ba'al bayit. So we don't really care that much the fact that admittedly there is a hatzitzah between the Kohain's hands and the carbon. So I guess the follow-up question is why is the Kohain even doing it then if there's a hatzitzah? And then of course the other thing to talk about here is whatever happened to min ba'minai hatzitz. So you're saying because it's somebody else's hands therefore it blibes min b'sheinai minai. There's a chiddush about this. And it's again when you want to make a brachah and you're not wearing a yarmulke, you can't put your own hand on your head cuz that's min ba'minai. But somebody else can put their hand on your head. I think if my memory serves me correctly in the Biur Halacha in the Maseches Tamid back over there in Sukkah 21, the discussion the Chiddush was talking about was in the Mikvah where you can't cover up the parts of your body that need to be covered with your own hand to do any kind of davar sheb'kedushah, but somebody else's hands could work. And while using somebody else's hands might solve your problem of doing a davar sheb'kedushah while being arum in the Mikvah, it's not recommended as the lawsuits will be pending. Back to the Gemara, "U'smichah b'shutein leisa." The Mishnah just said it as never pashet that there's no smichah on shutein. "Ai, v'ha tnan." We learned in Tamid, and we literally learned this Mishnah last week in our Mishnah Yomi. You know what Mishnah Yomi is? It's that thing you skip in the chat every day. Because the Mishnah says in regards to the whole process of bringing the carbon Tamid, "B'zman she'Kohain Gadol rotzeh l'haktir." If the Kohain Gadol wants to do the Haktarah himself cuz he has the right to always walk in no matter who wins the goral. And he says, "All right, I'm working today." He could do that. "So hayah oleh ba'kevesh." He would go up the ramp to the Mizbei'ach. "V'az ganvei ameinai." He would be to the right of the Kohain Gadol. "Higia l'machatzis ha'kevesh." When he got to the midpoint, "Ochaz skan b'yeminai." The skan would hold the right arm of the Kohain Gadol. "V'elahu." And he would help him go to the top. "Harishon leha'rishon, rosh v'regel." And that first Kohain who was involved in the carbon Tamid would hand the rosh, the head of the animal, and the regel to the Kohain Gadol. "Sameach al ein v'zarken." And what would the Kohain Gadol do? He would do smichah and he would put them on the Mizbei'ach. "V'haishis hasheini l'rishon sh'tei yadayim." Then he would give him the next part of the animal nice and the Kohain Gadol. "Sameach al ein v'zarken." "V'nishmas hasheini b'chol layil." Then the second Kohain would go away. "V'kach hayu mashitin lei sh'ar kol ha'eivarim." This is the process that they would give all the Kohain Gadol the parts of the animal. "Sameach al ein v'zarken." "U'zman she'rotzeh hu sameach b'cheiram zarken." And if you want to you could do this and the others would actually put them on the but what's the point? The point is you see the other would do even on these animals. So there's to which the says it's not really awesome as washing is over here some of the other equal to the covered for the that his should be more than everybody else's and with that now we get to learn all about the of the upon them and the other. Comes up the mission stay the were brought on these two were they were needed separately meaning the dough was formed individually the and they were also baked one at a time as opposed to the upon them they were needed separately as dough the they were baked two at a time says it doesn't mean they had to be done two at a time but just it's not really based on the size of the oven you could actually bake more than two at a time but the reading this mission it's a two by two baking process. There is a question of how do you only bake two at a time? We know things are not in the as we have talked in the past and we know that the is the that is the so how can you do it in pieces? You'd have to put the whole share of all 12 into the at one time in order for them to be imbued with the it's the other other other also asked the the himself answers that you're only putting them into the oven two at a time but of course they're all that's his and therefore they're getting their all at the same time the other one and has a different he says a a have this of the requirement of not being and since there is no there is no by these it doesn't have that to begin with. Continues the mission but the first higher ice and ice and the would make these in a shape in a mold the would make these in a shape in a mold he would take them out of the oven nice and he would put them into another mold they shouldn't get ruined in some way they'd fall apart the we don't know how do you know that the and the upon them are all needed the two says that one should be made of these two malamaid should because the way the is set up that you use these two for the the Torah is being that you have to knead them one at a time. How do you know that the also have the same because that was talking about the uponim so that extra word tells me it's going to have the same I mean I have to How do you know that the baking of the uponim is done two at a time? Tom would lamar the so the Russian Robin implies that that you do the baking two at a time. You have to so maybe the also should be done both of them at the same time Tom would lamar that the uponim are two at a time but not the now how I will fix it you already used the to teach me the uponim are baked two at a time so how do you use it again to be the which the says because if you can if you tell me that was only teaching me the uponim lamar the my the which is muted 30 ton of the midface take those baked uponim and put them into the mold the they were actually three different molds when they made the uponim nice for he puts it the kind of first take the dough and put it into that shape and come in first I love it there was also a mold inside the oven itself which the bread was baked in that mold when it took it out of the oven first there were three separate individual kale. The Rambam and says that all three were made out of made out of gold tells us that only that final mold was gold the other ones were made out of for why do we need to have three different molds once we've taken the out of the oven the comma now put it back into that first mold why do I need to have a third one at all and for the keep it the not so the is not going to fit anymore in that first mold remember the first mold was holding it as dough now it's been baked it expands you need to have a separate mold which is going to be slightly larger to accommodate its expansion and now the Gamara is going to get into the tsurah of what these lechem uponim actually looked like. Hopefully later today I will post some of the images we made for the Artscroll Mishkan CD-ROM and subsequent book. I remember the challenge in creating the lechem uponim wasn't so much for us the shape, it was creating a texture that looked like baked bread. Somehow our texture always seemed to look like a couch cushion. Whatever. Itmar, "Lechem uponim keitzad is an is a how did it look?" What did the lechem uponim actually look like? Turning over to base, Rebbe Chanina omer, "K'min teiva prutza." Like a box or maybe a squared off U-shape. And Rebbe Yochanan omer, "K'min sfina raikedes." It's like a fast moving ship where it came to a point at the bottom. So, it had more of a V-shape at its base. Now, on the surface there seems to be a machlokes what did they do? The Chazon Ish says there's no real machlokes here in terms of what the lechem uponim had to look like. It's a machlokes as to what historically they did. But really both are going to be kosher. And Rebbe Gross Kedar said something beautiful. He says if you look at the Baal HaTurim on the pasuk of afiyah achas, so over there in parshas Emor perek kaf dalet pasuk hey, the Baal HaTurim writes that the gematria of afiyah achas is k'min teiva prutza and k'min sfina raikedes. It's kind of funny cuz if it's one or the other, how could the gematria be both definitions? But like this Chazon Ish, it's beautiful because afiyah achas is both kosher as a teiva prutza and sfina raikedes. Sounds fine, Rebbe Gross. Now, fricking Gamara, bishlema amar k'min teiva prutza, if it's like that open squared off box, well then I know that the zichin. I now know where those bizichei levinah can sit. Right? These are spoons filled with levinah and they're supposed to be on the lechem uponim. So, as long as it's a squared off U-shape, there's a place for those bizichei levinah to sit. And leman amar k'min sfina raikedes, and it's like a V-shape, hey aviyasei bizichin, there was no flat space on these lechem uponim to put the bizichin. And the Gamara, no problem, makom avodah. When they would make the lechem uponim, they would make a flat area in the wall of the lechem which could be the place to put these bizichei levinah. Okay, but bishlema leman amar k'min teiva prutza, if it's like the open squared off shape, well then the aviyasei kanim. Now I know where these kanim, those were the rods that would hold up the breads, I know where they sit. And leman amar k'min sfina raikedes, kanim hey hey aviyasei, these rods that allowed the air to to in between the lechem uponim needed a place to be. Everything tomorrow Marsha of a little they would take extra dough and stick it to the sides of each one of these lachmim in the front and back and that's what these kind of would rest on. Okay, well if it's a squared off shape I get how the sniff him would support the lachmim. These sniff him which according to it's clear what their purpose is the sniff him push against the walls of the lachmim to keep them from breaking but according to him if the walls of these lachmim curve away from the sniff him so the sniff him don't really touch the walls of the lachmim except for like maybe a little mashu at the top of it but most of it is on this angle and therefore it's not going to touch the sniff him. Everything tomorrow no problem those sniff him were shaped in a way that extended underneath the lachmim. I had to scroll on the camera has a nice little picture here of what it imagines it looked like what they call the semi-circular shelves. Okay, but now we're going to flip it around and ask the questions on which one of them which one of them were shaped like the boat that came to a V shape at the bottom well then that's why you need them in the first place. If you if it's a straight up wall on the sides of these lachmim sniff him what do I need them for? If the bottom of the lachmim upon them was a flat surface so then they can sit very comfortably on the shulchan without support at all. So what do you need the sniff him for in the first place? If you stack up the breads without having the sniff him in between and all the weight is going from one bread to the bread below it the bottom breads are going to get squashed. So you need the sniff him on the sides to support the weight of the different lachmim. So if it was shaped like the so sniff him Now those sniff him are then on the shulchan going underneath the lachmim. Sniff him where did they actually go because the sides of the lachmim upon them were flush with the sides of the shulchan. There was no room to put down the sniff him. So where do you put them on the ground? And and they put them on the ground. Sniff him sniffem all the way down to the ground. And I guess these sniffem themselves didn't scratch the floor of the Beis Hamikdash cuz otherwise you would have a problem of having a scratch and sniff. Womp womp. All right, we're going to call it here. We're going to pick it up with the rest of this Gemara on tomorrow's daf. We shall see you tomorrow.