Menachos Daf 78

All right, daf ayin ches. Monday's daf. We ended up yesterday discussing shailos regarding trumas lachmei toda with yochai b'chamesh, whether it can make dimuah. The chachamim are understanding that the underlying shaila here is whether or not how do we look at trumas lachmei toda. Is it more like kodshim or is it more like truma? A simple enough gemara would be but how much bayilus does the kohen have? Can he be mikadesh nishu with these trumas lachmei toda? And the gemara ended off with teiku. There's a difficult but very fascinating Rambam on this teiku where he wants to know what the halacha is l'maisa. And he says that since it's b'dei la ifshita, there won't be any chiyuv misah b'dei shamayim. And the Kesef Mishneh asks, how can you say that? It's a teiku. So, that's not up to us whether or not there's going to be any issur misah b'dei shamayim. That's up to Hashem. And we don't know the answer. But we're going to move on now from the bottom line omar mar. This is the very bottom of samach zayin b'beis as we continue to work through the braisa that we had quoted yesterday. Omar mar where the braisa had said that I would think maybe just like by the shtei halechem you need two issurines. Also by the chametz loaves of the lachmei toda maybe you only need two issurines for all of 10 loaves. Talmud leimar there tihiyena that there was one issur in per loaf of the chametz loaves of the lachmei toda. So, my talmuda, how do we make such a drasha? Moving over to menachot alef omar rav yitzchak bar avdimi tihiyena with two yuds k'siv. So, since one of those yuds is extra, that allows us to darshan that that yud which represents 10 that all 10 loaves of these lachmei toda that are chametz should have 10 issurines of flour. Frect the gemara eima asara k'pizeh. It just has to have 10 but we don't know that they're 10 issurines. Maybe it's 10 k'pizehs which is a different measurement. Omar rabba b'issurines dibber hakasuv. We're talking about issurines. So, don't talk to me about k'pizehs. Then the braisa had said lamadnu asara l'chametz asara l'matzah minyan. How do you know you need 10 issurines for the matzah chelek divided amongst all 30 matzahs? Talmud leimar al chalos lechem chametz k'neged chametz hovei matzah. So, it has to correspond to the same amount of flour you'd use for the chametz you're going to use for all the matzah. Now, frect the gemara b'hekeish m'lamed b'hekeish chazer m'lamed b'hekeish. You only know how much flour you're using for the chametz loaves all y'dei hekeish d'tzu makish it to the shtei halechem. So, how do you learn out now a new hekeish from that which you learn from a hekeish? That's the whole sugya in zach um and daf nun. It's not pashut at all to do that. Frect the gemara heimenu d'avar acher. The lachmei toda of the chametz is not learned all y'dei a direct hekeish but it's heimenu. but it's learning from itself and from also the so it's heymenu this is Rashi in his first shot. It's not uniquely singular thing is being learned from for such a case you can use a heckish to extend it even to the okay but but what are you going to say according to the one who holds that when there's heymenu it does apply a heckish and now we may have a problem that you can't learn a heckish to another heckish. The word is a ribboy he didn't need to say it by so it's there to be and it's not actually coming through a heckish but it's a drasha in of itself. But it's drasha in of itself. Those that were brought as part of the when started working in the how you buying it's one of those very few that have loaves. We're talking now predominantly about the but the also brought loaves just similar they brought the that you had by the and the but the had no of like a did. However, I suppose it was only two of the three kinds of breads that were brought by the namely there ain't by there is no you don't have any of that the breads that are really baked in the oil but you only have the and the in the cabin show me change the idea. So come to but the which only had two of the three kinds of it required 10 style cabin which if you make the with the size measurements you're going to need six of with an extra 2/3 of a so this that the required both and the how do you know that it was the because the Torah doesn't seem to say that so the only matters that the matters the matters so when the Torah is listing up the different of the all of them were put into this one solid into this one basket and took one from each one of these different kinds for his but where's the pasuk list? A matzah, a challah lachem and a shemen nachat. So, bishlama challah, what's that a reference to? That's challah rakik rakik. It's like the rakikin of a carbon taida. Those wafer style kinds of lechem. And shemen mind in who? Lavar vucha? That must be our reference that we're looking for for the revuchin, which were very oily and and hence we have our mocker now for the revuchin existing by the miluim. Prakting amora maska floor of avodah. Eima ant to demishla. Maybe it's actually congealed oil, which we've actually referenced earlier when we talked about the kamitza of shemen might be according to the taisef yantif and the rabbeinu gershom might be actually congealed oil. But anyway, maybe that's what moshe rabbenu took. So, we need another mocker for revucha. El aked darash of nachman bar of chizda mish meider of tavla. Is that carbonara no bunna? Ashar yakrivu lashem biyam he mashach oisai. Achim al amanu lebonav miyam himshachai. When aharon came to start working, what did it have to do with aharon's sons bringing any carbonos? El amakish chinuchai lehimshachai. The torah is making a hekesh between every kohen's chinuch of the avodah to the kohen gadol's kind of chinuch. That mahi mashcheh revucha. Just like the kohen gadol when he brings his minchas chavitin, he brings a revucha. So, after chinuchai, so to every regular kohen who starts working for the first time has to bring a revucha. And therefore, when the pasuk said challah lechem shemen, it was talking about revuchin. Amar av chizda, kohen gadol hamiskarev laavodah tzarech shtei isronis eifa. When a new kohen gadol starts doing his avodah, he requires these two isronis of an eifa for his revucha. Achas lehimshachai vaachas lechinuchai. They're two different things. One of them is his hamshacha, the fact that he becomes anointed on that day. And the other one is for the fact of his chinuch, starting the avodah. Amar bar vashi amar, shalosh. He needs three kinds of these carbonos. Plei apligi, there's really no machlokes. How to have an avodah kshu kohen hedyot and how to not have an avodah kshu kohen hedyot. It depends whether or not he did any work already. If he already did avodah, then he only brings one carbon to be mechanech himself, just to say that hey, I now am a kohen gadol. And that goes along with his regular minchas chavitin, he'll be bringing these two revuchin. But, if he never did any avodah before, now he'll need two different new ones. One to do general avodah for the first time and the other one to make him into a kohen gadol, which together with his minchas chavitin will will a total of three revuchin on that first day. Then the mission I said Nazir's boshte yaldus kimatsu shibataida. The Nazir would bring two of the three kinds of matzah. The but not the revuhin. And therefore the Nazir's were made out of these 10 israynus of the Yerushalmi measurement. For the carbon it says his carbon shlomin. The rabbis shalom Nazir. That's the drush we had already seen on the previous daf. La serous carbon Yerushalmi ice ulur vius shamin. We understand that there are two different kinds of matzah that will contain 10 cabin of the Yerushalmi measurement and 1/4 lug of shamin. I might have thought that the Nazir's carbon shlomin should be to include everything that was in the parsha of the taida. Meaning that should include all different three kinds of matzah including a revuha and should therefore have 15 cabin of flour of this Yerushalmi and a lug of oil. Tom matzais that he brings those and those so my talmudist what's the drasha to be the revuhin? Amar Rav Papa dover shin amar ba matzais lafuke revuhin amar ba matzais. That's how you know not to include revuhin for the Nazir. Matzais klal khalos is prat. So klal prat in mashma prat. So khalos in media lay. So a different drasha. The bottom line is you don't have the revuha by the Nazir. Turning over to the mishna back to our program regarding carbon taida. Hasheches lifnim. The carbon taida while he's inside the which we know triggers the on the but his weren't there. The khuts la khima. His were on the outside of the we'll see in the soon what that's a reference to exactly. Lay kadasha lechem. So it doesn't work. The shrita of that shlomin meaning your carbon taida is not going to work to those shachtash like carbon let's say you shachted it before the dough actually became crusty bread. So it's not technically bread yet. Let's say all of them became carbon but not one of them because the oven didn't bake it evenly. Like kadasha lechem. Then it's not going to work. So the my this idea that the are separated in their khima it's not going to be Rav Yochanan amar khuts la khima is which is the outermost of Jerusalem. It's outside of the Azara and therefore it's no good even if it's in Jerusalem. It seems clear that if it's outside Jerusalem, everybody's masculine it's not going to work. Our Gamara doesn't discuss that. The Brisker Rav wants to make this into a Machlokes Rashi and the Rabbeinu Chananel why outside of Jerusalem is not some him. If I heard correctly, it's that some of Zion and some him. But the issue is according to Rashi be absolutely and according to the Rabbeinu Chananel it's not absolutely at all. It's just not going to work to be in the sky dish. The coming and enough coming to might be not even given where there is no absolute yet. Say, okay, but let's understand this Machlokes between Rabbeinu Chananel and Rashi. Rashi and Rabbeinu Chananel is Azara because be in an all the summer. Those the coming have to be in close proximity to your carbon Tater. Rabbeinu Chananel and Rabbeinu Chananel is the space party of Azara is still Kodesh. Why? Because of the living in all the summer. Okay, but now for the Gamara, why do I even need such a Machlokes Rabbeinu Chananel and Rashi? Well, if the Gamara doesn't know, we already had such a Machlokes because it's not because the Mishnah of some him that can be found on some him says Hashasheh it is a Pesach coming. Meaning you have coming when you're shacking your carbon Pesach. I have Rabbeinu Chananel say Rabbeinu Chananel after coming even when you shake the carbon coming on Arab Pesach and you have coming to your house going to be over the same love. The owner Rashi says on that Mishnah the owner may not have a J or a shake it or a desire or a head of the head of the board. The only time there's going to be this love is if the coming is owned by one of the players over here. The one who does the shakedown or one who does the Sri car or by somebody who's part of that Khabarovsk. And that coming is in my by Azara. Rabbeinu Chananel no, after Pesach in my by Azara, just the ownership is the problem. And what's their whole Machlokes whether or not the Pesach coming means it has to be in proximity or not. So the clear this Machlokes of Rabbeinu Chananel and Rashi was done already. So why do I need two instances of the same Machlokes? And for the Gamara, it's Sri car. The owner by he would have only said by the carbon Pesach and coming to America by he called Rabbeinu Chananel because the whole of Israel Chi. Wherever the coming is, it's still in a massive of Israel. Rabbeinu Chananel and Rabbeinu Chananel in my daily Rashi. There's no Israel. It's just it's not going to work. The Israel in the Kodesh of Israel Kodesh. If the coming are inside the Kodesh when the animals get shacked and fine, it will become Kodesh. But if it's outside the Kodesh, it won't become kodesh. We ate mar bahar, but if the machlokes would have only been by the carbon taida, I might have thought mar bahar ko amar Reish Lakish that the al is mashma the location and the proximity. And therefore the lechem mar nak going to mean it's kodesh unless they're in the hotzer. Al bahach, but by chametz amar Rav Yehuda amar Reish Lakish that the shochet is going to be chayav even if the chametz is outside the hotzer because it's always a matzah v'isur and therefore tzarich ani both machlokesin and Tanya kamma says Rav Yehuda amar Reish Lakish al lechem chutz le chametz b'isur so here's this price of backing up Reish Lakish. Then the Mishnah said shachto karban ponim b'tanur, let's say the dough had not yet baked into bread, it won't work to become kodesh when you shacht the carbon taida. So we know immediately. Detan Rav Nachman al chalos lechem chametz yakriv karbanos so malameid we darshin she'ein al lechem kodesh el im kein karban ponim b'tanur. The yakriv karbanos al zevach, what do we darshin? Malameid she'ein al lechem kodesh el im kein shchitas zevach. And zevach taida, malameid im shochet shelo lishmo like kodesh al lechem. It won't be pasul like the first Mishnah in Zevachim says, but it won't work to be mekadesh the lechem. Detan Rav Nachman, yoitzin b'matzah na. You can be yoitzin your chiyuv of eating matzah on Pesach. You got to love the timing here. With a matzah na, that means a matzah that's not completely baked. Not It's not quite dough, but it's not also It's not completely baked. U v'matzah she'ur al ha'afisa also matzah that's made in a pan. It doesn't mean it's deep fried cuz that would be cooked, but it's not made in an oven, that's the point. So let's go back. My matzah na, what is this uncooked unfinished I should say matzah? Amar Rav Yehuda amar Shmuel, k'sheparsa ein chutin nimshachim mimena. If you break the matzah, does it have any these stringy pieces of dough that are kind of like stretching apart when you break it? You know it's completely cooked if there's none of that. Amar Rava, v'chein l'inyan lachmei taida. That halacha of the ein chutin nimshachim mimena is also going to be the criteria for the lachmei taida to make it kodesh. Pshita afkei d'G'mara, ha ha'lechem k'siv v'ha ha'lechem k'siv. So that's just definition of bread, what's Rava's chiddush here? No, cuz may you would have echa amar Rachmana. Maybe we're going to darshin the echa shelo yital pars, that you can't take off a piece as the truma and therefore none of those same lachmei can be broken when the animal is g'shacht. That's what we're going to learn from the possuk and command the priest of Damya. And therefore this matzah nah, which is partially baked, it's like it's already porous, so that way when it gets baked to the point where it breaks cleanly, it won't be enough. Kamash one comes rubbing to tell us it's not true. As long as it breaks open cleanly without having the stringy things, it's going to be enough to be called lechem for the carbon tyda. Itmar, tell you this is shacht al shmainem chalis. Let's say a guy who's supposed to bring the 40 loaves brings 80. So what happens now? So kitchu arbo im tech shmainem, 40 of those 80 become kodesh. Which ones? Okay, Chizkiya holds 40 within the 80 will be kodesh. Like kitchu arbo im tech shmainem, nothing is kodesh. All 80 are not kodesh. And now we're going to have four different versions of what their machlokes is. Um Rebbi Zeira, hakol maide arbo im tech shmainem. If you speak out, 40 of the 80 should be katchu. About that everybody's being maskim katchu. And likewise, al ye katchu arbo im kinyan katchu shmainem. I don't want all 80 to become kodesh. Like katchu. They never said 80 are going to be kodesh, so none of them are going to be kodesh. But kipli where is there going to be a machlokes? Mar al achrais kamachavin. According to Chizkiya holds that really he's doing 40 and the second 40 is there, it's like achrais in case the first 40 get lost or somehow puzzled. And therefore the first 40 do become kodesh. Mar al achrais carbon gadol kamachavin. Rebbi Yochana holds he wants that bring all 80 and therefore since you can't bring 80, none of them are going to be kodesh. That's shot one. Abaya amar, kuli alma girsas issue here l'carbon gadol kamachavin. Everybody's maskim he wants to bring all 80. And therefore it wouldn't work. U'vikli sharash mikatchin shlemi das kabifliqi. Sure he messed up cuz he can't bring 80, but the fact that it's in a kli sharash, that's what Rebbi Yochana and Chizkiya are arguing about. Mar al kli sharash mikatchin shlemi das, even though he had the wrong das. Mar al kli sharash ain mikatchin shlemi das. Rebbi Papa amar, third shot, kuli alma kli sharash mikatchin shlemi das. V'hacha b'sakin kamifni, it's about the shchita that they're having a machlokes about. Mar al sakin mikadish es v'kli sharash. According to Chizkiya, the sakin, the knife, is going to be maktish those items like any other kli sharash, even though there's no das at the bottom cuz he had the wrong das. Mar al sakin kima d'lo taich, ain mikadish es v'kli sharash. According to Rebbi Yochana it's not going to work. And and the final shot is v'ika d'i amri, Rebbi Papa amar d'kuli alma kli sharash ain mikatchin ela mi das. You need to have the Bilam's Das, B'Hachana B'Sakan K'Mifligah, but they're arguing about the Sakan. Mar Sura says the Sakan Al Lima Mikleisharis. According to Chizkiya, the knife is even more Chashiv than a regular K'leisharis. The Alf Gav D'Leslei Teichech Mikacha, Mar Sura says the Sakan Al Lima Lei Mikleisharis. But according to Breichos, that knife has no extra ability more than a regular K'leisharis, and therefore it requires now the Das of the Bilam, which you don't have cuz he wanted to use all 80 for his Korban. And we'll stop here and pick it up with Tuesday's Daf Ha'Shavua.