Menachos Daf 77

All right, daf samech zayin, Sunday's daf, we get to start a new perek all about the carbon toda. So we know the carbon toda is really a zevach, it's an animal that you shecht, but it's accompanied by 40 loaves of four different kinds, 10 of each of those four kinds. One kind is chametz and the other three sets of 10 are all going to be matzah. And when we say matzah, we don't mean crunchy matzah necessarily, but we just mean that the dough was never in the chametz. Zog the mishna, hatoda haisa b'chamesh sa'in yerushalmi'is. So these todas that we're talking about came from flour that the raw flour was measured by five sa'in yerushalmi'is. Now what's a sa'a yerushalmi? It's the current kind of measuring as opposed to shehein which was also the same thing but measured differently, sheish midbari'is. In other words, it's the same thing, it was just two different ways to measure it. You have the biblical midbari'is style measurement of how big a sa'a was and then you had the more modern version when the yidden came to eretz yisrael and they built the beit hamikdash with the yerushalmi'is sa'in style was. But this is the same amount. And how much actually was it? Shteiy eifas, which is the same thing as saying 20 is s'ra in ice. Eifa sholish sa'in. In each eifa is three sa'in. So esrim is isarin. So the two eifas are 20 isarin of flour of which asara l'chametz v'asara l'matzah. 10 were used for the chametz meaning half of it was used for the chametz and 10 was for the matzah. Less flour was divided up amongst all 30 matzahs which we're going to learn from sukkin. So those chametz dikka loaves had three times the amount of flour as the matzah dikka loaves. Moving over to med alef, asara l'chametz isarin l'challah. 10 isarin for the chametz loaf comes out to an isarin per loaf. V'asara l'matzah. And 10 isarin was for all of the remaining 30 matzah loaves. U'matzah sholish minin. There were three different kinds, challos, kikkar, and revucha. And there were 10 of each one of those three flavors. Nimtzu ushlesha isarinim ushlish l'chol mino min. Also kum t'cheish you got three and a third isarinis of flour for each one kind of matzah. Ushlosha challos l'isarin. There were sorry, there were three matzahs made per isarin. That's all the more biblical midbari'is kind of isarin measurement. Yerushalmi'is had a different cheshbon and therefore it's now after have a different cheshbon of how to figure out how much flour to use per loaf. U'mida yerushalmis hayu shloshim kav. Five sa'a equal 30 kav. And let's not forget that a sa'a has six kabin in it. So that's how you get to 30 kav, six times five. Chamisha asara l'chametz v'chamisha asara l'matzah. Of which 15 were for chametz and 15 were for matzah. In other words, you divide it in half. Chamisha asara l'chametz kav u'mechtza l'challah. So 15 kav for the chametz ones comes to 1.5 kav per loaf. And chamisha asara l'matzah. And over matzah and of those matzahs you have sholish minin, challos, kikkar, and revucha. So nimtzu, how much got used for each one of the matzahs? Chamish kabin l'chol mino min. So five kabin of flour were used for all three types of matzah together. Ushnei challos l'kav. And therefore there were two matzahs per kav that were made. Cuz each matzah was made from one half of a kav or 1/10 of the five kabin, which is the same as the 1/3 of the isarin of the midbari'is cheshbon that we had before in the mishna. And now the gemara is going to do more fun math. Yay! Again, the mishna had said hatoda haisa b'chamesh sa'in yerushalmi'is, which is the same as the six midbari'is sa'in, which broke down to two eifa cuz each eifa has three sa'in in it. So mino ani meili, how do we know that an eifa is three sa'a? To which amora of chizda domar kra ha'eifa habas teichen echad yihiyeh. So the Torah puts together the eifa and the bas, which sounds like two different kinds of measurements have the same amount in them. Ma bas sholish sa'in, af eifa sholish sa'in. Right, well first the gemara bas gufo mino, how do you know that this bas is actually also three sa'in? Eilam it is said l'oseis ma'aser chomer habas. Cuz the Torah afterwards says that a bas should be taken as the ma'aser liquid of a chomer. Because a chomer is a liquid measurement, so how much are you supposed to take? You're supposed to take a bas from it, which is 1/10 of the chomer. So from this pasuk in Yechezkel, we now know that a bas is going to be 1/10 of the 30 chomer sa'a equaling three sa'a. But in that same pasuk in Yechezkel it says eifa nami k'siv v'aseres hachomer ha'eifa. That an eifa is a 10th of a dry chomer. So if you know that the chomer is 30 sa'a, then b'hechrach you not only know that a bas is gimel sa'a, but also that an eifa is gimel sa'a. So why do you have to even compare the eifa to the bas? Just talk to me straight about the eifa. Ela chomer lo yada'a kama. It must be that we don't know how big that initial chomer is that we're breaking down. So you can't learn out an eifa from the chomer. So hakhi nami lo yada'a bas. So you can't figure out what the bas is as a cheshbon of the chomer. So back we're back to our question. The pasuk in Yechezkel says that the eifa is the same as the bas, but how do we know that the bas is gimel sa'a? Ela me hacha. That the pasuk in Yechezkel is going to tell us how ma'aser is to be taken from oil. Habas hashamen. The bas, which is that measurement of the oil, should be taken from shamen. Ma'aser bas min hakor. And you take a bas as the ma'aser from a kor. And aseres habatim chomer ki aseres habatim chomer. So this pasuk is b'feirush saying that a bas is 1/10 of a kor. Now how big is a kor? A kor is 30 sa'a. So we can make a cheshbon that if a bas, which is 1/10, is going to be three sa'a. And since the pasuk says that an eifa has the same amount of volume as a bas, must be that an eifa is also going to be three sa'a. Amar Shmuel, ein masifin al amidah sheish mishtos. This idea that we expanded measurements, you can't just quickly expand the measurement too much. So when the yidden went into eretz yisrael, they expanded their measurements. But Shmuel, who by the way is an expert in dinei mammonos as we know we pasken like Shmuel when it comes to dinei mammonos, don't ever be masif on your measurements more than a sixth. U'leima'a t'veya yesh mishtos. And not the coinage can't also change by more of its weight more than a sixth. Hamishtaker, and someone who wants to charge a profit, lo yishtaker yesh mishtos. Don't charge more than a sixth either. What Shmuel says we're not talking about selling anything, we're talking about specifically b'ochlei nefesh. These are the staple things that people need. If you're a vendor that sells luxury items like Rolex watches, you could charge whatever you want because chazal didn't care about that. Mai ta'ama? Why does Shmuel limit this to only a sixth as your change? Eilam mishum afkuei tara. Is it because we're concerned about an inflation? Cuz when people come into town and they don't realize how much the measurements have been enlarged, they might raise their prices unnecessarily and send off kind of a price and an economic trend that would just create unnecessary inflation. If that's the case, yachi shtus nami lei. So then don't even raise it even by a shtus. Because that also could cause inflation. Like why is it only up to a shtus but not more? Ela mishum ainah. The reason why you can't enlarge these shiurim more than a sixth is because of ainah, the halacha of ainah. Which we know there are three different subset halachos of ainah. If it's less than a shtus, the mekach is kayem, you don't get back any of the extra money. Either people either people are mochel or just that's the way it is. Yesh mishtos, it's botel mekach, everything goes back. But if it's a shtus, if it's exactly a sixth, it's kana u'machzir ainah. The sale goes through but you get back the extra amount of money that you overcharged. And we mentioned a couple days ago when it comes to ainah ainah l'karka'is, the three way machlokes between Rashi, Tosafos, and the Rambam. According to the Rambam, there's no ainah at all, the mekach always goes through cuz you can't be having exact pricing for karka. According to Rashi, it's an extremely limited definition that's only the shtus itself. That usually by metaltelin we say kana u'machzir ainah, we don't say that halacha by karka'is. And And Tosafos says that there's no ainah until it gets to 100% of its value. If you doubled the value of the karka, then the halachos of ainah will kick in. Okay. But anyway, our gemara is suggesting that maybe Shmuel said this halacha because of the halacha of ainah. He heiked l'halavi b'mekach. So he limited that price increase only to going up to a shtus to a mekach. So this way if somebody comes in from out of town and doesn't know that this town has a larger measurement and he suggests a price of the old measurement, it shouldn't be mevattel his mekach. But if that's the case, I would say v'ha amar Rava, kol davar sheb'mida, v'sheb'mishkal, v'sheb'minyan. Anything that is weighed and numbered, afilu pachus m'shtei ainus chazer. You're going to give back that little extra amount of what you defrauded the guy even if it's less than a shtus. So it wouldn't be because of this reason. So what's the point of Shmuel's halacha that you should not increase more than specifically 1/6? Ela the gemara wants to suggest mishum tagra. Maybe they made this rule for the sake of the tagra, the merchant who didn't know about the increase of the measurements. Ki heiked l'eilam tayei zeina. We don't want this merchant who as Shmuel understood usually makes a profit of 1/6 shouldn't suffer a loss of his actual keren, of his principal, because he's now mistakenly delivering a new measure for the price of the old one. But if that's the case, zayana hu d'eilam tayei. We're only concerned he shouldn't suffer a loss of his keren, of his principal, but rivcha lo ba'i. Doesn't he need to make a profit? Zvan v'zavin tagara ikrei. Do they buy and sell goods just to be called a merchant? I mean, the guy wants to be making some money. So l'chora, if the reason to make such a takana was the concern of this tagra, the rabbonan should have limited the increase to less than a sixth to at least ensure that he should get minimal profit. Doesn't make sense that we would make it so expansive to include up to a sixth. Ela amar Rav Chisda, Shmuel kra v'ashkach v'darash. This whole thing is not about as far at all, it's a pasuk. And the following is Shmuel's drasha. V'ashekel esrim gera, esrim shkalim, chamisha v'esrim shkalim, asara v'chamisha shekel hamona yihiyeh lachem. 20, 25, 10, and five, which is a total of 60. That's the value of a mona that was used to pay the beit hamikdash, to pay the fields. So Shmuel actually broke down this pasuk. Mona mosan v'arba'im v'eif. Does a mona have 240 dinarim in it, meaning 60 shkalim? We know for a fact that a mona has 100 dinar, which is only going to equal 25 shkalim because there are four dinar to a shekel. And we know that a mona is 100 dinar or 25 shkalim. So 60 shkalim or 240 dinar is more than double the value of the mona. Ela shma mina tlas. From this pasuk we can learn three things. Shma mina mona shel kodesh k'fula hiya. That a mona of kodesh, the beit hamikdash mona, was worth double than the regular mona. U'shma mina ein masifin al amidah sheish mishtos. That you're allowed to add to the size of the measurements but don't add more than a sixth. Because b'sha'as Yechezkel, they went from 100 dinar in a mona to 120. Or another way to say it is 25 to 30 shkalim. So therefore this new kind of mona, which is double the regular mona, went from 200 to 240 dinar or from 50 to 60 shkalim, which is why the pasuk says that the value of a mona is 60 shkalim. U'shma mina shtus u'milabar. When we talk about adding a sixth, we mean it as like a 20% increase. It's not really a sixth in our regular vernacular in English. It's a sixth of the total after you've now added that extra 20%. But bottom line is Shmuel saying this is based on a pasuk and not as far at all. Amar Ravina, masnisan ami deika. Our mishna is actually meduyek like Shmuel. Diktoni hatoda haisa b'chamesh sa'in yerushalmi'is shehein sheish midbari'is. So shma mina, do you see that you can increase the shtus milabar. All right, that's enough math for one day. Turning over to amid beis, zog the mishna. How did they actually make the carbon toda breads? Mikulam from all four of these different kinds of lachmei toda hayu notel echad me'asara truma. They had to take off 1/10 as truma. Shenaim arv'a yikru mimeno echad mikol carbon truma l'Hashem. So echad, one, shelo yital parus. We darshin from the word echad that you can't take off a broken challah as the truma, but you got to take a whole challah. So one did. Mikol carbon. From each one of these different challos sheyikru carbonos shavim. That all of the different challos should be equal meaning the same number of challos has to be in each one. Shelo yital mikarbon l'chavero. That you can't take truma from one kind of challah on the other kind of challah, but you got to take each one for itself. So to the kain who's going to throw that dam of the shlamim, he gets to have the trumah. That means that the four different loaves of trumah, 1/10 of each kind of four kinds of challahs are given to the kain. And the remainder is given to the balim. There's an interesting question that the Migdash David discusses in siman chof hei stes about who the balim are, who actually does this hafrasha. Is the actual hafrasha done by the balim, by the Israel, or is it done by the kain? And another question to grapple with is what's the status of these lechem before the hafrasha? Are they tevel? Maybe these are some of the questions we'll come back to as we learn this perek. Zok the Gemara. Tano Rabbanan. The heker mimenu and the Torah says you have to be mafresh the trumah mimenu from it. We darshan minha mechuber. It has to still be attached. Meaning all of these different lechem have to be in one kaili so they're like one unit. When you take the trumah from it, it's coming from it. And then I'll explain it all over the place. We also darshan echad shlei talparus. You can't take a broken lechem as the trumah. Mikol carbon we darshan shlei you kol hakapara. When the shulchan aruch said all of these different lechem should be equal, the same number of lechem in each one, shlei carbon al chaveirai. You can't take one from the other kind of style of lechem. Trumah laHashem. When the Torah says as trumah to Hashem, eini adam mikamahei. I don't know from how many different lechem it is separated. Because the Torah never says befeirish how many different kinds of breads there are. So how do I know what a tenth of it is? I don't know what the top number is. So therefore haraini dan make a cheshbon. Ne'emar kan trumah. By the carbon tithe it says the word trumah benemer betrumas ma'aser trumah. By the regular trumas ma'aser that a levi gives to the kain from what he received. Mal halan echad measara af kan echad measara. So both kinds of trumah are going to be 1/10. Oi, klal l'derech eretz. Ne'emar kan trumah benemer bebikurim trumah. By bikurim it also has the expression of trumah. Mal halan ein al ashir af kan ein al ashir. So it could be the carbon tithe is compared to the bikurim which does not have any minimum ratio of ashir. So since we have two different mekoros, ne'er elim damim. Done in trumah she'ein achareiha trumah. Because there's no follow up to the trumah that you take off of the carbon tithe. Mitrumah she'ein achareiha trumah. Which is the trumas ma'aser. It's the last step in the process of tithing your produce. The allegation kiach bikurim. Don't compare it to bikurim she'eish achareiha trumah. Bikurim has a regular trumah that follows after that. You still got to give a trumah to the kain and then another ma'aser to the levi who then takes off the trumas ma'aser for the kain. The bikurim is only the first stop in this whole train here. Oi, klal l'derech eretz. Maybe I can look at the other way. Done in trumah hanne'echeles bemakom kodesh. Which is a reference to the trumah of the lachmei todah. Mitrumah hanne'echeles bemakom kodesh. Which is the bikurim fruit. Ve'al techiach trumas ma'aser she'ein echeles bechol makom. You don't have to eat it anywhere. So tam lameder ever comes the pasuk and says mimenu trumah laHashem. Uksiv the trumas ma'aser mimenu trumah l'gezeirah shavah. So therefore we're going to learn our trumah of the lachmei todah from trumas ma'aser which is going to be a tenth as opposed to just a smaller amount or ambiguous amount that we would learn from bikurim. Then the braisa continues and says so lamadnu l'trumah she'echa measara. Okay, so let's continue our cheshbon here. We understand now that trumah is 1/10 of the whole total. So it makes sense that the todah should be ten loaves of each kind. Aval eini adam mikamahei challah. I don't know how much flour goes into each one of these different challahs. Well now haraini dan make a cheshbon. Ne'emar kan lechem. By the chometz part of the lachmei todah it says the word lechem. Ne'emar malan bishtei halechem lechem. So mal halan isarin l'challah af kan isarin l'challah. So we can learn out from the shteih halechem it's going to be an isarin of flour. A klal l'derech eretz. Ne'emar kan lechem benemer belechem apanim lechem. Mal halan shnei israinis. You have two israinis for each loaf by the lechem apanim. Af kan shnei israinis. Said dear elim damim. Which one are the chometz loaves of the lachmei todah more comparable to? Done in mincha haba'ah chometz min hazavach. Miminchah haba'ah chometz min hazavach. Which would be the shteih halechem because it has the kifsat sa'aris. Ve'al yechiach lechem apanim she'ein bo chometz min hazavach. There is no accompanying carbon that comes along with the shteih lechem with the lechem apanim. Oi, klal l'derech eretz. Maybe I can argue the other way. Done in mincha haba'ah me'aretz v'chutzei la'aretz min hachodesh umin hayashan. Which is a reference to the lechem of the lachmei todah. Miminchah haba'ah me'aretz v'chutzei la'aretz min hachodesh umin hayashan. Which is a reference to the lechem apanim. Ve'al yechiach shteih halechem she'ein ba'is el min hachodesh umin ha'aretz. It's davka from the chodesh and from Eretz Yisrael. So maybe you can't go ahead and learn it to lechem apanim. Tam lameder mimishbei'sachem taviu lechem tenuva shteim. Therefore the Torah tells us by the shteih halechem the expression that you should bring these different lechem tenuva shteim. She'ein tam lameder taviu. You didn't have to have the Torah repeat the word taviu since we already know you're bringing this mincha to Hashem. Suma tam lameder taviu shekol mah she'ata meivi mimakom acher haray hu k'zeh. Anything you're going to bring from elsewhere, meaning those lachmei todah that are chometz should be like this chometz at the shteih halechem. Mal halan isarin l'challah af kan isarin l'challah. So now I know how much flour based on that. Frek the Gemara. You're going to ask me im mal halan shnei israinis. Maybe you should learn by the shteih halechem you need two israinis. Af kan shnei israinis. Maybe also by the lachmei todah you're also going to need shnei israinis for all ten loaves. So now continues the braisa maybe you're going to ask me a question im mal halan shnei israinis for its totality of the shteih halechem all you need was a shteih israinis. Af kan shnei israinis to make all ten loaves. Tam lameder tihiyena. That they shall be to teach us that the lachmei todah were made ten israinis of flour one isarin per challah. Then continues the braisa. Lamadnu asar lachometz. Everything we've said until now was about the chometzdika lachamim or the lachmei todah. Asar lamatzah minayin. How do you know you need ten more israinis to be divided amongst all the remaining thirty matzos. Tam lameder al choleis lechem chometz. The Torah says in reference to the matzah challakim that you should bring the chometz with the matzah. So neged chometz avo matzah. It has to correspond. Nimtzu esrim israinis lachmei todah. There's a total of twenty israinis of which asar lachometz ve'asar lamatzah. Divide ten and ten. Ten for the chometz portion and ten for the remaining thirty challahs of matzah. Now how much goes into each matzah. Yochal asar isrin matzah lo yuchlan el miminechad. I might have thought that the ten israinis in the matzah challahs should all be made like a single kind of challah. Just like the ten isarin that are used for the chometz loaves. Tam lameder im al todah yakrivenu. V'echer valazevach todah challos matzos belulos bashemen urekikei matzos meshuchim bashemen uvislos merkeves begamer. Which the Torah is saying that all different three kinds of matzah should accompany the carbon tithe. And the Torah is telling us that all three kinds of matzah combined should contain the amount of flour that's in the chometz loaves. Which is the ten isarin. So nimtzu shlosha isrin mishlosh lachamim. Comes to chaza comes out that there's going to be three and a third isarin for each different kind of matzah. V'shlosh challos l'isarin. And since there are ten loaves in each kind it's going to come out that the three matzah loaves per isarin of flour with each one of the challahs containing 1/3 of an isarin. And the braisa finishes up by saying venimtzu lachmei todah arbaim. Neital mehen arba. You take four, meaning your trumah, which is going to be 1/10 of each kind. V'naisen l'kain v'ashar ne'echelin labalim. The remaining thirty-six are eaten by the balim. And the balim will make a big party and they're all going to eat all these thirty-six loaves. Amar amar. The braisa had said the heker mimenu which we darshanu minha mechuber. That all of these loaves have to be together, attached, mechuber to each other. And you're mafresh from that one unit of the forty loaves. Aila miyada d'chazav be'eiskol chelbo yarmimenu. By a carbon chatas we have an expression from it, mimenu. So hasam mimichubrika. By a case of a carbon chatas in what way are they mechuber? [snorts] They're not in the same kaili. They're all cut up pieces. But the Gemara gives a proof from R' Chisda umar R' Avimi. The umar R' Chisda umar R' Avimi shelo yinatach basar kodshim she'eitelai morim. Don't cut the meat up before you first take out the emurim. So it is takah all mechuber. Amar amar. The next part of the braisa says ne'emar kan trumah benemer betrumas ma'aser trumah. That's how we know it's going to be 1/10. Frek the Gemara. Venail mitrumas midyan. There's another kind of trumah which is the trumas midyan which would be 1/500 of the total. Trumas midyan is a reference when Bnei Yisrael defeated the Midyanim in their war they divided up the spoils of that war and they called it a trumah. And that would be 1/500. Which the Gemara says done in trumah hanne'echeles l'de'oraisa mitrumah hanne'echeles l'de'oraisa. Ve'al techiach trumas midyan she'ein echeles l'de'oraisa. Okay, venail mitrumas challah. Maybe the trumah that you take from lachmei todah should be the trumah from challah. Which is 1/24. Frek the Gemara. Tana d'vei R' Yishmael. Done in dov reshe ne'emar bimimenu trumah laHashem. Midov reshe ne'emar bimimenu trumah laHashem. Lafukei trumas challah dilanei ne'emar bimimenu trumah laHashem. Oi, rabah. Trumas lachmei todah chayavin [snorts] aleiha misah v'chameish. Oi, ein chayavin aleiha misah v'chameish. What happens if I eat the trumah of a lachmei todah? Am I going to have the regular kind of issur of trumah? Given this klal trumas ma'aser k'trumas ma'aser dami. I don't know by v'chameishi say me'at rachman. Maybe because by it says trumah that you're going to davka bechameishi l'shamaim for eating it when you're mechallel it. And its chameish [snorts] should be added. Maybe the Torah is saying davka this. But we'll be me'ameit the trumas lachmei todah. And another shailah midema'as oi ein midema'as. Is the trumas lachmei todah will it create that kind of dimua like trumas ma'aser does or does it not create a halachic status of dimua? We're basically asking what is the matzav of this kind of trumah? And the Gemara ends off teiku. This is where we're going to call it. Picking up im yirtzeh Hashem next time.