Menachos Daf 75

All right, daf, ayin, hey, Fridays. Daf, we get to do three mishnayos with their gemaras today. Picking it up at the mishna at the bottom of ayin, dalet, amud, beis. Kol hamenachos hanasos bikli, any carbon mincha that you use a kli shareis for, which we'll see in the gemara is everything but a mafatana or a t'unais shleisha matanais shemen. There are three different times you actually add the shemen. There's yitzika, blila, and the matan shemen bikli k'dei um l'asiason. So, the three of them are the yitzika is the pouring, the blila is the mixing, and putting the shemen into the kli before you actually make the mincha, which is actually the first thing you do. First, you put the oil into the kli, then you do the blila, and then you do the yitzika. So, the chronology is actually the opposite order that the mishna lists it. Continues the mishna, challis bilulan, when you're making challis, the oil gets mixed in after they've been made into loaves. Divrei Rebbe. V'chachamim omerim, silus, when do you mix the oil? You mix it when it's still flour, before you made it into loaves. And there's a shaila in the rishonim, is this dafka by a machvas and marcheshes, but not by the mafatanas, or also by the mafatanas? Now, the end of the mishna is specifically about the mafatana, which have two different versions of mafatana. There's challis and rekikin. So, a challis t'unais blila, which means after you baked it, now you break it up and you add the oil. U'rekikin meshicha, but the rekikin, as opposed to the challis, have the oil smeared on them when they're still whole. So, after the rekikin are baked, they are smeared with the shemen. Keitzad mashchin? How do you do the meshicha? It's kamin It's kamin ki, which is the shape of that Greek letter called ki, or ki y'vanis, or kaf y'vanis, which the rishonim Tosefos brings from the Rashba in the Tzvi Adati like a ches, or tes, or chof, or a nun. Whatever the actual tzura of it is, it's kamin ki. V'hashar nachal l'kohanim. There's extra oil because you only needed a small amount for the meshicha, and you don't do any yitzika. So, therefore, the rest of it goes to the kohanim. Zagt the gemara, the beginning of the mishna said, kol menachos nasos bikli, so the gemara wants to know, l'meitei mai? Everything is in a kli shareis as opposed to what? Amar Rav Papa, l'meitei minchas mafah. If you're baking it in an oven, then there is no kli shareis that's going to be mekadesh the dough, but it happens with the tanur. Tanu Rabbanan, in the braisa it says, b'minchas marcheshes carbonacha silus b'shemen te'aseh. So, as we go through these psukim, it's important to note that by certain minchas, it has certain details. And therefore, we're going to learn one from the other, and that's what the braisa is going to be doing now. So, this pasuk by the marcheshes tells us that the silus is b'shemen te'aseh. So, we darshin melameid t'unah matan shemen bikli, that before you add the flour, you already have added the oil. U'carbonacha carbonacha, l'zeira shavah, but based on this zeira shavah of carbonacha carbonacha, it's not going to just be by the marcheshes, it'll also be by the machvas. Moving over to menalef, matan matan shemen bikli, af l'halan matan shemen bikli, and mal halan yitzika u'blila, af kan yitzika u'blila. So, the same halachos will be by both of these kinds of carbon minchas because of the zeira shavah. So, then the mishna said, challis bilulan, divrei Rebbe, that that's the second time you add oil to the mincha is going to be after it's made into a challa, after it's made into a loaf. That's Rebbe's shita. V'chachamim omerim, silus, no, you add the oil while still flour, before you made it into a loaf. Tanu Rabbanan, the braisa says, silus bilula, melameid t'unah v'leilus silus. It sounds like you mix the oil while still flour, but Rebbe Yimer, challis bilulan, you mix it with the oil after it's been made into challis. She namar, challis bilula is. Now, this braisa is a siua to the rishonim who want to learn the machlokes Rebbe and the chachamim is by all menachos, including mafatana, as opposed to the Rashi on our mishna that was limiting the machlokes tanaim only to the minchas marcheshes and minchas machvas. Al koponim, b'haloi lach meiteidem amar bo in challis, v'i efshila bilulan k'shein challis u'l'silus. The expression of mixing can only be done when it's really flour and not already challis. So, clearly, bilula is b'shemen is not going to require the shemen to be added after it was already made into challis. So, Keitzad oisa? Naisen shemen bikli k'dei um l'asiason, must be that you're putting the oil into the keilim before you're making the mincha. V'naisna, then you put the flour into it. V'naisen shemen aleha u' bilulan, you put more oil onto that flour, and then you mix it. V'losha v'aifa, then you bake it. U'paiseisa, you break it into pieces. V'naisen aleha shemen, you put the shemen on those broken apart pieces of the kaimetz, and then you do the kmitza. But Rebbe Yimer, what's the process? Challis bilulan, you mix the mincha after it's been made into challis. She namar, challis bilula is b'shemen. So, Keitzad asi? How do you do that? Naisen shemen bikli k'dei um l'asiason, same thing, you put the oil in before you start the process. V'naisna, then you add in the flour. V'losha v'aifa u'paiseisa, you knead it, bake it, and break it. V'naisen aleha shemen bilula, then you put more oil and then you mix it together. V'chaisar v'naisen aleha shemen, and then lastly, you put shemen a third time. V'kaimitz, then you do the kmitza. Prefekt gemara, i efshar d'kamrei Rabbanan l'Rebbe. This line that the Rabbanan said, it's not shayeich to be bilul those challis from the carbon tideh when it's in that form. Mai hi? What do they mean? Amar Rebbe Shmuel bar Rav Yitzchak, the issue was r'viis shemen hi. By the carbon tideh, they only have a r'viis of shemen, and they have to have it for 20 challis. So, eicha m'schalekes l'kama challis? That's too little oil for so many challis. So, according to the Rabbanan, when we're adding it to the actual flour, it's no problem because then that little amount of shemen gets mixed with all of that flour at one time. But if you're breaking them into individual challis, there's not going to be enough oil. Now, we go to the part of the mishna about the mafatana. Tanu Rabbanan, challis bilula is. The challis specifically have to be mixed with oil. V'lo rekikin bilula is, as opposed to rekikin that are not bilul with oil. But we could have made a kal v'chomer. She yachol v'halai dinu, u'ma challis she'einan t'unais meshicha, but yet still t'unais bilula, they have that chomer of needing to be bilul with the oil. So, rekikin she't'unais meshicha, they already need oil. Ein adin she't'unain bilula? Talmud l'eimar, challis bilula is dafka v'lo rekikin bilulan. And likewise, the other way, rekikin are meshuchin, dafka the rekikin are smeared after the fact. V'lo challis meshuchais. And I would have made an argument the other way because she yachol v'halai dinu, u'ma rekikin she'einan t'unain bilula, but yet still t'unain meshicha, challis she't'unain bilula, ein adin she't'unain meshicha? So, certainly, those challis should need meshicha. Talmud l'eimar, dafka rekikin meshuchin v'lo challis meshuchais. But my Talmud, what's the starting point of here? How does the braisa know that the challis that are bilulan are going to be m'mayeit rekikin, and the rekikin that are meshuchin are going to be m'mayeit challis? Amar Rava, you know why? Because l'eilu sh't'unain v'leichem meshuchais rekikin bilula is, couldn't have just had one pasuk, they could have just put them together that the challis are going to be meshuch with the shemen and the rekikin are going to be bilula is. And since no pasuk says that, it's muchach that that's the way it is, that there's no challis that are meshuchais and there's no rekikin that are bilula is. Then the mishna said, keitzad mashchin? Kamin ki, v'hashar nachal v'chulu. So, mai kamin ki? As we spoke out, amar Rav Kahana, kamin ki y'vanis, like that shape of that letter. Big shaila in the rishonim, exactly what that is. Some of them m'farshim bothered that why pick a letter from a y'vani language if it actually does resemble a letter from loshon hakodesh? Wouldn't it make more sense to pick the actual loshon hakodesh letter rather than picking the y'vani letter that now we have to figure out which one of the loshon hakodesh letters it looks like? And the explanation I heard is that it doesn't exactly look like a loshon hakodesh letter. It looks exactly like this kamin ki. It's doimet to one of the loshon hakodesh letters, but since chazal want to be very exacting in their description, they can't say it looks like a letter tes because then we would say it's exactly like a letter tes, which it isn't. It's exactly like a letter ki. And it's doimet to the letter tes or whatever other letter in loshon hakodesh it looks like. Tanu Rabbanan, now we're going to have a braisa that's going in shitas Rav Shimon. The Remember that Rav Shimon back in Sanhedrin said that you can bring five rekikin and five challis, that you can mix and match, as opposed to the tana kama that said it has to be either or, all challis or all rekikin for a minchas n'dava. So, Tanu Rabbanan, in shitas Rav Shimon where you can mix and match, mincha b'vamechtza challis u'mechtza rekikin, maybe lug shemen d'cheitzei hu, how do I work with the oil? You bring that chatzi lug shemen, and you divide it. Chatzi l'challis, chatzi l'rekikin. V'challis, for the challis, bilula u'rekikin, and for those rekikin, meshuchin, like it's supposed to. U'meshicha s'a rekik upanei kulai, v'shaar shemen machzir l'challis. You smear the oil on the entire surface. Whatever remains can be added to that oil that you're mixing with the challa. So, this braisa is not going like our mishna. And Rashi in the Tzvi Adati points out there's two machlokes here going on here. According to the tana kama of this braisa, first of all, you're not smearing on the rekikin kamin ki, but rather you're smearing it on the entire surface. And also, any leftover is going to be put back into the mincha as opposed to being given to the kohanim. That's all the tana kama. However, Rebbe Shimon ben Yehuda m'shum Rebbe Shimon omer, our shitas Rav Shimon, mashchin kamin ki, v'shaar shemen nachal l'kohanim, which is Rav Shimon's shita. Tanya idach, another braisa says, rekikin, these are the rekikin of that mafatana, aboyin bifnei atzman, where there are no challis. So, maybe lug shemen u'mashchin b'cheizur mashchin, keep on using that same oil. Achya challa, achya challa, kol she'ein sh'bilul, because you don't have any challis there to take the leftover oil. And according to this tana, you can't give the leftover oil to the kohanim. So, what do you do? You keep on using it until it's all used up on those rekikin. Rebbe Shimon ben Yehuda omer m'shum Rebbe Shimon, mashchin kamin ki, v'shaar shemen nachal l'kohanim, no problem. Which is the braisa that we brought in our mishna. Kol hamenachos hanasos bikli, t'unah psisa. Any carbon mincha that's brought in a kli shareis has to be broken up into pieces, which we're going to see on amud beis exactly that process. Prefekt gemara, l'meitei mai? What kind of mincha is not done in a kli shareis? Amar Rav Papa, l'meitei shtei lechem u'lechem hapenim, which are not put in a kli shareis, but only in the oven. And those things don't have psisa. Tanu Rabbanan, sa'isa pitim mincha, which is actually skipping a couple words in the pasuk. The whole pasuk reads, sa'isa pitim v'yatzakta aleha shemen minchi. And we darshin l'rabos kol menachos b'psisa, all carbon minchas. And we darshin what seems to be an extra mincha hi at the end of the pasuk. It tells us that all menachos require psisa. Yachol she'ani mar b'af lechem u'lechem hapenim, ah, but Talmud l'eimar, sa'isa, which is a miut, and therefore, the shtei lechem u'lechem hapenim are not smite, that you don't break them up and you leave them whole. Then the pasuk brings that other part of the pasuk of v'yatzakta, that you put oil on it, shemen mincha. That must be that extra usage of the word mincha. L'rabos kol hamenachos l'yitzika, all menachos are going to require a halacha of yitzika, that you pour the oil. She yachol she'ani mar b'af minchas mafah, even when it's you're baking in the oven. Talmud l'eimar, aleha shemen, dafka on it, which is a miut. Oitzei es challis, I would think that to only be m'mayeit the challis of the mafatana. V'lo aitzei es rekikin, and don't be m'mayeit rekikin. Talmud l'eimar, no, no, hi, that's also another miut. We have two miutim. You got the aleha, and you got the hi. And one of those miutim will be for challis, and the other miut will be for the rekikin. So, my Talmud, how do we know that the pasuk is coming to m'mayeit the mafatana? Eima, let's say that the yitzika is not coming to m'mayeit the mafatana, but maybe eima l'aitzei minchas kohanim. Maybe it's coming to say that you don't do yitzika by the minchas n'dava of a kohen. Turning over to amud beis, amar Rava, eizehu davar sh'tzareich shnei miutin? What kind of mincha might need two different miutim? Have you ever seen minchas mafah? Because it comes in two different tzuras of a challis and rekikin. Therefore, we have two miutim, of sa'isa and the hi, to be m'mayeit both kinds of mafatana. But the minchas kohen is only a single kind of mincha, and therefore, it's less likely that the miut would be for that. Zagt the next mishna, minchas Yisrael. What's the process of doing the psisa by a minchas n'dava of a Yisrael? Keifol echad l'shnayim, you fold it in half. Of course, it's only folded, not broken yet. So, clearly, even though they would bake these minchas as matzah and not chametz, they were still soft. I'm imagining them more like a lafa than an actual matzah. But, they did this folding and they made it into two. Ushnayim larbo, and then they would fold it again. So, now you got four layers. Umavdil, and then you break it apart. Minchas keinam, kaful echad lishnayim, you fold it into two. Ushnayim larbo, ve'einam mavdil, you don't break it into the four. Minchas kein mashiach, lo hayah makapul. The kein gadol's mincha, which is the minchas chavitin, it doesn't get folded at all. We're going to see in the gemara what this means actually is it gets folded in half as opposed to four. Both the kein's mincha and, as Rashi in the very mascal points out, it's the minchas nedavah of the kein because it's because it's not the minchas chaitas. And the minchas kein mashiach, this minchas chavitin, are not broken up at all. Ve'ein she'ein bahen kmiza, bechol she'ein bahen kmiza, ein bahen psisa. Now, of course, we know what Rashi means is you do need to have a kmiza, but that's only by the minchas chaitas. So, that's why we know we're only talking about minchas kein nedavah. Ve'chulen psisin kizeisim, and all of them are broken into the size of kizeisim, which we'll see in the gemara what exactly that means. Tanna rabbanan, psis. Break it apart. Zeh yachol lishnayim, I might have thought that means just divide in half. Tam ul'eimar, pitim. So, that's another lashon rabbanan telling us that it has to have four pieces. Now, epitem, if you would have only just said break into pieces, yachol ya'aseh apirurin, you could make it into crumbs, like little little pieces. Tam ul'eimar, eisah, eisah l'psisah velo psisah l'psisah. Don't break its pieces into pieces. So, okay, so so what do you take and do? Minchas Yisrael kaful echad lishnayim, ushnayim larbo, you you fold it into half and then into half again. Umavdil, and then you break it into four quarters. Minchas keinam, kein mashiach, lo hayah makapul. Ve'chulu, chazon ish changes the girsah here, the hayah makapul l'veis, that you only fold it into two. Aivah nan t'nan, lo hayah makapul. Our mishnah says you don't fold it at all. Amar Rabbah, einam makapul larbo, aval makapul lishnayim, like we spoke out, it still means you fold it in half, just not into the quarters. And the mishnah said, "Rebbi Shimon omer, minchas keinam, minchas kein mashiach, ein bahen psisa." Amar Rebbi Yosef, going off on a small tangent here. Hai chavitza, this kind of chavitza food, which you may remember from kitsos um'varchen, it has pieces of bread in it. Exactly what the nature is is a shailah in the rishonim, but it's cooked food that has pieces of bread. De'is bei pirurin kizeisim, if it's got pieces of bread that is the size of a zayis, mevarchen anav lehem hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz, we still classify it halachically as bread. However, iles bei pirurin kizeisim, mevarchen anav lehem baruch she'amar ve'hayah ha'olam, it loses its status as lechem. Amar Rebbi Yosef, minan ami na'alah, how do I know this? That if it has at least one piece of kizeisim, it's going to require a hamotzi. Detanya, "Hai amei demakrei minchas Yerushalayim, omer, baruch she'amar ve'hayah ha'olam." That the kein who's bringing the korban mincha, and it's the first time he's bringing the mincha that year, you should make a she'hechiyanu. Notlan l'achlan, when the kein takes his she'urim mincha to eat it, omer, he says hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz. If it's not in our mishnah of chulen psisin kizeisim, all the pieces are broken into the size of kizeisim. So, therefore, if the kein is eating she'urim mincha, he's eating zayis sized pieces of lechem, and you say hamotzi. So, you see that hamotzi is made even on a cooked food as long as it's pieces that are zayis. Amar lei Abaye, "V'lo tanna de'Rebbi Yishmael do'omer, mefarchen ad shemachziren l'sultan?" According to the de'Rebbi Yishmael, the process is you could crush that mincha until it gets back into a state of flour, and that's the psisa, because he disagrees with our tanna of our mishnah. Kum t'chayis, who come out according to that tanna that you don't make a hamotzi when you eat those korban minchas? Avichitem bochinam, if you want to say that's the case, uh-uh. Aval tanna vilent in the braisa, "Likat ne'chulen kizeisim v'ochlin." If you gather together all these different crumbs, and now you have a zayis worth of those teeny little pieces, im chametz hu, ein achilas if you're eating it as chametz on Pesach, you'd be chayav kareis. In matzah hu, adam yotzei b'hen yedai chiyuv Pesach. So, clearly, it's halachically seen as lechem even though it's smaller than a zayis. So, l'chayav you should make a hamotzi. So, Rebbi Yosef, ach aval mai ashkina, and you know what the case in the braisa is talking about? B'shi'ur zayis. Sure, they're a little teeny pieces, but you actually kneaded it back into one metzius of a zayis. And therefore, that's why it has halachic status of lechem. Aval Rebbi Nechunya, if that's the case when the braisa is talking about a single piece, ainam d'tanya alah, "V'hu she'ochlin b'chdei achilas pras." That you're only going to be chayav that case of eating the chametz on Pesach and being yotzei yedai chiyuv matzah if you ate it during that kdei achilas pras, whatever it is, three to nine minutes. Bei shi'ur zayis, but if you're telling me that the braisa is talking about a case where you reformed this based on these little teeny pieces, and you put them back together, it shouldn't say "V'hu she'ochlin" that you ate them. "She'ochal lei" me'ibayei lei, it should say you ate it, because it's a single object at that point. So, elah hachamim mai askinan, we must be talking about babola gadol. We're talking about a very large original loaf that was much bigger than a zayis. Therefore, the pieces that you took off from it still have their status of lechem even though they were smaller than their original size. And just before we finish, just to point out an interesting Rashi here. Rashi's lashon on "V'hu she'ochlin b'chdei achilas pras," she'lo shahu bein pirur l'pirur yoser m'chdei achilas pras. It's meduyak from Rashi that you didn't wait in between each one of these different pieces more than m'chdei achilas pras. When we talk about the hefsek of a kdei achilas pras, are we talking about the interruption between the eating or we including the time that it takes to eat it as well? From this Rashi, it's meduyak that you're not counting the actual eating. Problem is that that doesn't seem to drive with Rashi in Brachos, because Rashi in Maseches Brachos on lamed zayin amud beis does seem to include the actual ma'aseh achilah as well. Rebbi Gross quoted from Rebbi Kluger that says that the yeshuv in the stirah between these two Rashis is whether or not we're talking about for mitzvos or for issurim. The Rashi in Brachos was only talking about issurim. So, he's including the time it takes to eat it to be chayav kareis for eating chametz on Pesach. However, Rashi by us is also talking about the mitzvah of achilas matzah. So, in that case, the hefsek between achilah can't be longer than m'chdei achilas pras. Mai havei alah, back to the gemara, what's the bottom line for a chavitza? Rebbi Shimon omer, afilu pirurin she'ein bahen kizeisim, you still make a hamotzi. Amar Rabbah, aval hu dik t'ris dinama layu, as long as it has the tzurah of bread, then you'll still make the hamotzi. Even if the pieces are smaller than the kizeisim, but the tzurah dinama still makes it that you'd be chayav to make the hamotzi. We'll stop here and pick it up with Shabsos daf the mishnah.