Menachos Daf 74

All right, today is Daf Ayin Dalet Thursday. Daf, we're going to pick it up on Ayin Gimel with base with the two dots about a dozen lines from the bottom of the amud. The Mishnah had quoted Rav Shimon Shita. Because the Mishnah said, if you have a Minchas Chata'ah, Rav Shimon holds you take off the Kometz, even though normal you're going to take off a Kometz and it'll be matter the Shirayim. Here you take off the Kometz, the Kometz gets burned and all the rest of it gets burned. So practically tomorrow I mean only meaning give me a marker for Shitas Rav Shimon. Tonu Rabbanan, "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha." The pasuk says by a Minchas Chata'ah that the Kohanim are going to eat it just like any other Mincha, which means it's muttar for him to eat it because we already know that the Kohen eats a korban Mincha, so it must be that we're talking about a Minchas Kohen that's a korban oleh v'yored that the Kohen should not eat it. And the words "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha" has to be teaching us a different halacha, which is "She'tehei avodasa k'sheira ba'y." That the Kohen is actually kosher to do the avodah on his own Minchas Chata'ah. So the way we read the pasuk is "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha" and if it, meaning that Minchas Chata'ah, belongs to a Kohen, it'll be just like his regular Minchas Nidavah, he could do his own avodah. That's how Rashi learns it in the Ksav Yad. Now Ata Eimar "She'tehei avodasa k'sheira ba'y." That he's kosher to do his own avodah. Oy Eina Elo L'Hatas Minchas Chata'ah shel Kohanim. Maybe it should actually be muttar to allow the Minchas Kohen to be eaten by the Kohanim and not to be burnt on the Mizbe'ach. U'mani m'kaymin? How are you going to learn the pasuk "V'chol Minchas Kohen kalil t'hei lo yei'achel"? You got to burn the whole thing and don't eat it. Which we're going to come back to this pasuk more later today. We can learn Minchas Nidavah. That's only talking about a Kohen's Minchas Nidavah aval Chovah say. But a Minchas Chovah, which we're understanding to be a Minchas Chata'ah, Teinei Chales? Tal mud L'eimar "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha." That's why the Torah said it should be just like a Minchas Makish Chovah say in Nidavah Mah Nidavah say ein in an achilas af Chovah say ein in an achilas. So that was all the Shitas Tanna Kamma actually. We haven't gotten to Rav Shimon yet. So to that, Amar Rebbi Shimon, "V'chi neimar "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Minchasei"? Doesn't say that. Halalei neimar ela "k'Mincha". Doesn't say "k'Minchasei" like as if it's referring to other korban Mincha of a Kohen. But rather it's "k'Mincha" like "the Mincha" referring to another Minchas Chata'ah of Yisrael. And therefore "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha" if the Minchas Chata'ah belongs to a Kohen, it's going to be just like the Minchas Chata'ah of Yisrael. Say Elo L'Hekesh moving over to Minchas Minchas Chata'ah shel Kohanim k'Minchas Chata'ah shel Yisrael. Mah Minchas Chata'ah shel Yisrael nikmetzes, af Minchas Chata'ah shel Kohanim nikmetzes. And Ee Mah Minchas Chata'ah shel Yisrael nikmetzes v'shiyareiha ne'echalin? If you want to argue, well why don't we just take the hekesh all the way and say just like a Minchas Chata'ah of Yisrael the Shirayim are eaten, af Minchas Chata'ah shel Kohanim nikmetzes v'shiyareiha ne'echalin? So af dam Tal mud L'eimar "L'Kohen k'Mincha" which we darshin "L'Kohen k'Mincha" meaning for the kmitzah the Minchas Chata'ah of a Kohen is going to be like the Minchas Chata'ah of Yisrael. V'lo Elo Isham k'Mincha. Not for that which we're going to be makdir is it going to be compared to a Minchas Chata'ah of Yisrael. So how can you say what do you l'ma'aseh do with a Minchas Chata'ah of a Kohen? Kometz korev b'atzmai, Shirayim krevin b'atzman. This is Shitas Rav Shimon that you take the kmitzah and you burn it and you take the Shirayim and you burn it. Now Argamar only brought the marker for a Kohen doing the avodah on his own Minchas Chata'ah according to Shitas Rabbanan not according to Rav Shimon. So the Sfas Emes goes on that whether or not Rav Shimon's maskin to that maybe has a different marker. But l'ma'aseh according to the Tanna Kamma who argued with Rav Shimon, he used that marker "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Minchas Mincha" teach me this halacha that a Kohen can do the avodah on his own Minchas Chata'ah. So practically tomorrow "How should tehei avodasa k'sheira ba'y"? That the Kohen can do his own avodah. May Hochah Nafkah? Is it taken from this pasuk of "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha"? May Hochah Nafkah? I have another marker. "Minayin l'Kohen she'bo u'makriv korbanosav b'chol eis u'v'chol sha'ah she'yirtzeh"? So how do we know that a Kohen can come and bring his own korbanos anytime he wants? Tal mud L'eimar "U'vo b'chol avas nafsho she'yirtzeh". That a Kohen can do his own personal avodah even when it's not like his scheduled time to do the avodah. And Rashi in the Ksav Yad extends this heter and drasha from the pasuk to even include his own Minchas Chata'ah. So why do I need the additional drasha of "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha"? Because Ee May Asam Hava Mina? If you would only learn from the pasuk of "B'chol avas nafsho she'yirtzeh", Hani Meli Davar she'ein bo al cheit. Aval Davar she'bo al cheit Ee May Eloi? So we use the pasuk of "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha" which is certainly talking about a Minchas Chata'ah to teach us that the Kohen can do the avodah on his own Minchas Chata'ah. Ay practically tomorrow "V'hod Nami May Hochah Nafkah"? May Hochah Nafkah? I have a different marker. Because the pasuk says "V'chi Par Kohen al hanefesh asher yageish chet v'shogeg". These extra words of "b'cheit v'shogeg" when he does an aveirah b'shogeg, we darshin must be talking about the Kohen himself. M'lamed she'a Kohen miskaper al y'dei atzmai. That he can do his own avodah for his own Minchas Chata'ah. So l'chayeh that's going to be our marker. And for the Gemara Ee May Hafu Hava Mina? Hani Meli b'shogeg aval b'meized loy. Maybe that won't be relevant for when he does an aveirah b'meized. That maybe when he does his own meizedik aveirah he can't bring a korban. Kamashma lan the Torah tells us "V'hayisa l'Kohen k'Mincha" that if a Kohen is mechuyav to bring a korban because of an aveirah b'meized he can bring it himself. Practically tomorrow b'meized Heichi Mishkach Sla? When do you ever bring a Minchas Chata'ah for doing something b'meized? The Gemara answers well we do have examples. B'zadin, Shavuah. This is one of the four examples that the Mishnah in Krises on Daf Tes gives us that a person who brings a korban for an aveirah b'meized. One of them is being boyel a shifcha charufah that he brings an asham. A nazir who's metamei himself b'meized brings an asham. And then you have Shvuas Aidus which also brings a korban oleh v'yored. And Shvuas Pikadon which you would bring an asham. The Shita takes out this line. But l'ma'aseh we do have this Mishnah in Krises that tells us that there are four examples when you bring a korban b'meized. Okay, so so far we've got the Tanna Kamma and Rebbi Shimon which just have a machlokes whether or not you take the kmitzah. You certainly burn both parts. But now we're going to bring a braisa with a third Shita. So Tanyei Idach, Rebbi Shimon Eimar, "Minchas Chata'ah shel Kohanim nikmetzes v'ha kometz korev lifnei atzmai v'hashirayim krevin lifnei atzman." That was Shitas Rav Shimon. Now we introduce Rebbi Elozar. Rebbi Shimon Eimar, Rebbi Elozar the son of Rebbi Shimon says a similar but slightly different halacha. "Ha kometz korev b'atzmai" as we've said. "V'hashirayim not burned but rather mispazrim al Beis Hadashan." You spread out all the Shirayim on the Beis Hadashan. So Rebbi Elozar is agreeing with his father that you do a kmitzah like in the Tanna Kamma, but instead of burning them you're spreading out the ashes. Amar Rebbi Chiya bar Abba, "Heivi b'Rebbi Yochanan." Rebbi Yochanan was trying to figure this out. "Beis Hadashan d'heicha?" Where is Rebbi Elozar saying to spread out these ashes? "He d'l'ma'alah." If you're putting it on top of the Mizbe'ach einu avodah. Then he's saying the same thing because what happens on top of the Mizbe'ach? You burn it. That's Shitas Rav Shimon. "Eini d'l'matah." If the Beis Hadashan is referring to a different location, which Ta'us Dis Kotei Rashi that says that that location might be the Shefach Hadashan which is outside Yerushalayim where there are multiple locations that he brings that might be that place where they put ashes. "Tzoyei shel hadavar she'korev l'matah." Is it possible to use the expression of being korev? And the Torah says "kalil tihei". You got to bring it as a korban. So it doesn't make sense to say you're just putting the ashes there according to Rebbi Elozar Rebbi Shimon. So how does Rebbi Elozar Rebbi Shimon understand the pasuk of "kalil tihei" as talking about just relocating these ashes to one of these locations that Ta'us is referring to? "Which Amar Lei Rebbi Abba, Dilma Lei Eevud." Maybe what Rebbi Elozar means that einu chinam it's not being nikrav but it's just relocated location of the Deshan. "Tz'achi ko alav." They didn't like that. "V'chi yesh l'cha davar she'korev l'eevud?" Again, we're calling it "kalil tihei". It's supposed to be brought as a korban. So Tanyei Avudrei Ovin, the pasuk says "V'chol Minchas Kohen kalil tihei lo yei'achel." So we're going to rework the reading of this pasuk. Because the pasuk says that the entire Mincha is going to be completely kalil, all of it. But what do we do with it? We look back at the previous pasuk about the Minchas Chavitin that it's "kalil tiktor". That the whole thing is going to go up in smoke and it all gets burned. But this pasuk is l'achilah. He kashtiha l'leila d'var acher. In this pasuk the Torah is saying that we're being makish the Minchas Chata'ah of a Kohen to a Minchas Chavitin l'gabei the achilah but not l'gabei anything else. That in the same way the Minchas Chavitin is not ne'echal, so too the Minchas Chata'ah of a Kohen is not eaten. But otherwise they're totally different. Minchas Chavitin is burned on the Mizbe'ach but the Shirayim of the Minchas Chata'ah of a Kohen are actually sent l'eevud and they're just put on the Makom Hadashan. Now my comer, how do you actually read this pasuk? I mean the pasuk says it's "kalil tihei". So Amar Ravaya, this is how you read the pasuk. "Kochi Ko Amar, "Kol Minchas Kohen lo yei'achel Chovah say." You shouldn't eat it is referring to Chovah say his Minchas Chovah meaning his Minchas Chata'ah. And the words in the middle of "kalil tihei" that's talking about Nidavah say. So the Kohen's Minchas Chata'ah is taken as mayit from the "kalil tihei". So instead of burning it you just dump the ashes in the Beis Hadashan. So we're really taking the middle part of the pasuk and kind of hacking it up. Amar Lei Rava, "Sakina charifa machsa k'kroi." You took a knife and cut the pasuk. It's not a way to read the pasuk. Elo Amar Rava, read it more straight. "Kol Minchas Kohen kalil tihei" that's talking about Nidavah say. "Lo yei'achel" that's talking about a Minchas Chovah. So actually Rava is being maskin to a biased drasha. He just doesn't like the way he read the pasuk. Practically tomorrow "V'eifoch ano." I can switch it around. Maybe the "kalil tihei" is talking about the Minchas Chata'ah and "lo yei'achel" is talking about Minchas Nidavah. And based on that the Minchas Chata'ah of a Kohen would be burned and his Minchas Nidavah wouldn't. But most of them are not because Minchas Nidavah have a layla r'vuya Chavitin that we're learning it from. She'kein t'dira. It's brought every day like a Minchas Chavitin as opposed to a Minchas Chata'ah that's not brought all the time. And lo chati. Also Minchas Chavitin is not brought for an aveirah and the same with the Minchas Nidavah. And also bosis r'chaya is not gishmak because it had the shemen and the levonah in there as opposed to the Minchas Chata'ah. Practically tomorrow "Ad Rava." Chovah say have a layla r'vuya because I've got parallels. She'kein y'sarin because it has the same ingredients of just no more than the y'sarin of the flour. And Chovah because both of them are going to be chiyavis. But now then but the Gemara says "Hani Meli Nidavah say." The Minchas Nidavah is closer to a Minchas Chavitin because it's got more parallels. Okay, so that concludes Rebbi Elozar Rebbi Shimon. V'Rabbanan loy. According to Shitas Rabbanan that you don't do a kmitzah on the Minchas Chata'ah of a Kohen. "V'chol Minchas Kohen kalil tihei lo yei'achel." Mah Avdei Lei? What do they do with that pasuk? "Eini Meli b'oyel l'chila d'Tanya Eini Elo Elo Yena b'kalil tiktor." I would have only known that the Minchas Chavitin in the prior pasuk is the "kalil tiktor". So I would have thought what's "b'chol kalil tiktor"? Only the Minchas Chavitin. "V'ata Chateina" meaning the Mincha of a Kohen. Meaning any other Mincha of a Kohen that's "lo yei'achel". Just don't eat it. "V'mi nayin leiten es ha'omer shel zeh bozeh." "Es ha'omer shel zeh bozeh." How do I know to apply the same halachos? Meaning how do I know that if you eat that Minchas Chavitin or any other Minchas Kohen you're going to be chiyav for both the assei and the lo ta'aseh. That's how Rashi in the Ksav Yad says it. "Tal mud L'eimar kalil." "Kalil" l'gezeirah shavah. These two psukim which are right next to each other we're making a gezeirah shavah. "V'ne'emar kan kalil v'ne'emar l'halan kalil. Mah l'halan kalil tiktor, af kan d'kalil tiktor. U'mah kan leiten lo ta'aseh achilah say af l'halan leiten lo ta'aseh al achilah say." Okay, so according to Shitas Rabbanan they both have the same halacha. "V'Amar Ravina, Nu Shaila. Kohen she'achal min ha'emurin bo." The emurin that you're supposed to burn on the Mizbe'ach. Let's say the Kohen ate it. Now the Kohen couldn't eat the cheilev because cheilev anyway is assur with the lo couldn't eat the chelev cuz chelev anyway is also with a cheiv karis. The Rashba and the Chavias point out that the emurim in question are the kloyos the aseres hakovid. So, what's going to be the halacha for a coin who eats those emurim? Lav de zaris turning over to me base like me boily. Avada, the fact that he's a zar klappei these halachos. This is Rashi in the Chavias loshon is divadai chayiv shari zar who eats lav. Klappei these emurim, the coin is a zar. But he come me boily the lav de kol teya. This lav in the Torah that says it has to be completely burned and you can't eat it. Why is this issur which is only written by bedochis is that issur davka for menachos or all parts of carbonos that have to be burned including the emurim? Is that also going to be bechlav the lav? Amar of Aharon le Ravina, a very unique name in shas to have Rav Aharon. This may be the only place in shas. So, just give me a moment while I chazer shas in my head to see if there's any other Rav Aharons. I don't know. Either way, certainly a collector's item. Doctor Rav Aharon back to Ravina, tashma. Itanya cuz the braisa says Rav Eliezer Rebbe Meir, kol shuba kol teya. Anything that's bechlav the lav of it has to be burned. Leitem leisa say al achi losay. Therefore, the emurim which has to be burned is also going to be bechlav the lav that you're not allowed to eat it. Zog dem mishna. Minchas kainanim which includes both the minchas nedava or the minchas cheit of a coin u minchas kain moshiach is daily minchas chavitin u minchas nesachim and the nesachim that has to accompany every oila and carbon shlamim lam mizbeach veein bo hen le kainanim. The whole thing goes on the mizbeach. None of it goes to the kainanim. Ubezei yafa koach mizbeach mikoyach hakainanim. So, regarding this group of carbonos, the mizbeach has a yifui koach more than the kainanim themselves. Masha ein kein shtei halechem, the lechem upon them. Those things are nachon le kainanim veein bo hen le mizbeach. So, they only go to the kainanim. Ubezei yafa koach hakainanim mikoyach hamizbeach. So, this is going to need an explanation of what the mishna is coming to tell us. Zog the gemara, bizu leka. He's saying that first list are the only things that the mizbeach has yifui koach. Hoy koila, the whole thing gets burned on the mizbeach. None of it goes to a coin. Now, it's like the gemara is not true. The coin does get something from an oila. Ika oila le kainanim. The kainanim get the oil of these carbon oilas. Avaya ika oilas haif. The oilas haif gets burned and there's no skins for oilas haif for the coin to have. Oh, cuz ika mor ov v'eitza. They're the Those are the parts of the bird that go on the mukam hadashim. So, even though they don't go to the kainanim, but you can't tell me to yifui koach hamizbeach cuz it does not go on the mizbeach. Okay. Hoy ika nesachim. And those completely go on the mizbeach. It's not true, zog the gemara. Le shishin ozlin. They don't go on the mizbeach. They go on the shishin which is near the mizbeach but not in the mizbeach. Now, frekt the gemara, umai bizu? In this there's a yifui koach of the mizbeach. Zog the gemara, lafukei midishmuel. The reason why the mishna had such an expression is coming lafukei Shmuel's halacha. Amar Shmuel in meseches zevachim on tzadi alef, hamisnadivyin meviu umizalfai algavei ishim. If you takka bring in nesachim not that it's accompanying another carbon but on its own, the coin puts it on the mizbeach. So, to that the mishna is telling us a chiddush kamasha malan debizu le shishin ozlin. The wine goes down the shishin. Continues our gemara, mesayei alei le Shmuel. Our mishna is a shtikel siyuah to Shmuel that has a different shita. Amar Shmuel misnadiv shemen kamtzai. You do kemitzah with shemen beshiurei hanachon. So, however you physically do the kemitzah with shemen we've discussed in the past. But from the fact that our mishna didn't list it it sounds like the shiyurim of the shemen do go to the kainanim. Then the mishna said shtei lechem ulechem upon them. Since no parts of them go on the mizbeach, there's a yifui koach for the kainanim. Bizu leka. Aren't there other things that are exclusively eaten by the kainanim? Hoy ika chatas haif. The gemara says not true. Ika dam. Some of the dam goes on the mizbeach. Hoy ika lechem shemen shel metzora which is given to the kainanim. No, cuz ika matnaso. Not all of the oil is given to the kainanim. Some of it is used as part of the process where they where they put some of it on the metzora, some of it goes on the paroches. Ika halachos. And then the mishna ended off ubizu etc. So, umai bizu? Lafukei mam damar shtei lechem abois bifnei atzman ushrei fasin. This is coming lafukei the shita that if the shtei lechem are brought by themselves, they get burned. They don't go to the kainanim. We're talking about a case where those two kids had tzaras that are supposed to come along with the shtei lechem somehow were not available that according to shitas Rav Akiva, you bring those shtei lechem anyway. But Rav Shimon ben Nanas and Rav Shimon ben Chay we had a mishna back earlier on mem hey saying they're not going to be brought. So, kamasha malan debizu yafa koach kainanim le oilam. So, that's why our mishna comes to tell us that bizu meaning the shtei lechem will always be the exclusive of the kainanim no matter what the matzav is even if you can't bring the gifts of tzaras. And that's what the mishna was coming to tell us with the expression of the bizu. We'll stop here and pick it up with the mishna for Friday's daf.