Menachos Daf 71

All right, Daffy Alf Monday's daff picking it up at the last line at the very bottom of a bay. Omar leer moving over to Alfosia Dor because since there's multiple raas, this has to be the raosia of his generation dur explain this mission you can't even sit down. How do you know that the R is going to be m any grain that's taken root even though it hasn't really grown at all as a pry yet? It's just taken root. Dr. back means to be right now because if the carbon itself has to be taken from something that is of that is ripe must be there's something else that we're coming to be which is something that only perhaps has the hasha to which the gar says it's not so positive because there are other options maybe it's not ripe but it's not because of hasha that's the other option maybe if it doesn't yet reach a third of its growth maybe then the won't be m but inami it's already had hash rasha but that's not enough so I'll give you another idea from Mckersh. So the hersh is the sickle. It's the tool you use to cut the standing grain. So it sounds like that the grain that you're using for the carbon has to be shy to use a sickle and reap it. Must be that the is coming to be something that's not holding by that level yet. But there still be part of the hector of the R. What's that going to be? Must be root. That's also not a riot because the shakas maybe it's this growth that's shak for shakas, you know, for animal fodder. But in econam alone wouldn't be enough for the of the you have to wait for the shakas level. Okay, I'll give you a different idea that what do you use for the carbon something that's standing. So there's something we're being mia which is not standing. And what's that going to be? Maybe that'll be the hasha twitch versus says no cuz there's another level to be may maybe it's bendable which is before it's but after hashm you know what the mucker is that hasha is going to be enough to be m from the becausera is that which is going to be mut is everything that was planted so if it's planted planting happens before hash so maybe anything that's planted even before hashr should be mutle raises back sudney which Rashi says is an expression of which gets into the whole issue of whether or not you can use and heavenly signs to pass upon it was an expression for or Rashi suggests perhaps it's a reference to the fact that papa was a beer merchant either way that which is going to be is the things are in the field and you can't be if you're just sitting there as a seed you have to have taken root so ultimately that is the bottom line the mucker is aisra anything that you've sewed as seeds but it has to be bas which we understand to mean that it has to have taken root and that's going to be the mocker that anything that's taken root is going to be mut al the carbon zishna this that we had said that there is an isser of not only eating the but harvesting the now we're going to have some exceptions to that rule you're allowed to do the harvesting of the bashen those are the irrigated fields inside the valleys even before you brought the carbon and rashi says the reason why you can be kiter the bashen is because since they're not good enough for the carbonimer it's of doing the or because as Rashi says they're they'll spoil quicker. So to prevent the loss you're allowed to be kiter you can't stack it up until after you bring the carbon and that's a draon because we're afraid if you're going to be handling all of this people might mistakenly eat from it and speaks out that we weren't mbbit about making such a dindon by the bashen because there'd be a loss of money by these things that are growing in the bashen. So Kazal didn't want to answer it but Makum have an people who lived in even though we know that there was an issu but there was never an isert to live in so because those were examples of and therefore they were allowed to do their harvest before and therefore that would be with the but they actually did the wanted but yet still they weren't you're allowed to do the for the purpose of because that's not a technical. So therefore it's not the kaiser because you're doing it for the animals. When is that? That's only if you started the before it got to a third of its growth. No, you're allowed to even feed it to your animal even after it's reached a third of its growth. The kit, you're also allowed to do the kits for the purpose of nitis. These are little saplings that you plant. One shot that Rashi brings is because the grain is actually going to hurt the trees. So you're not being kiterate for the tua, you're being kiterate for the trees and therefore it's not a kit that's going to be iner. Another shot is because it potentially could be an isser of kayim. So to avoid the isim it's mut to be kiter that which is around the ice. Another reason you're allowed to do it is a because they need room as speaks out that that was aug to give this. So if you needed to clear the way for that activity that's also another and even though you're going to say well is that a dissa we're playing with ana here of the kira and as they like what's the heter the ad suggests it works like the ram that is a subset of and there is an idea of you can listen to gross who discusses that or that's another that you're allowed to do the now even after you have the of doing the in these cases but you still can't bundle it up You just got to leave it open and not tied up as bundles. Mitzvah, the mitzvah of the carbon is to dapka come from ka as we already spoke out in the previous garra before the mishna has to be from that standing crop matzah. Let's say they couldn't find any of this kind of grain yamarim. Then you're allowed to bring it from previously cut amorim from previously cut sheavs that are kind of stockpiled mitzvah. You want it to come from very fresh kernels. But los if you don't find so yish you got to bring what you got to bring mitzvah bala the mitzvah is to do the kira on that night of the 16th of Nissan after the first day of pes however it'll still be kosher vashabas and the mitzvah of the is shabas we'll see more about that in the gumar the pashes is talking about the kira we'll have to see coming up tomorrow whether or not this is also talking about the actual bringing of the carbon itself we learned in the regarding the head of the kira of the bashenyr which sounds like it's motive for a person to do the before you bring the it also says in that same which sounds like the first time you're doing a it is for the from a place that you're allowed to bring the no then you just can't do a regular but maybe from a place that you're not allowed to bring the you could bring from the so since you can't bring the from therefore those are the ones you could be kiter I am a maybe I'll tell you a different way to farm for the steer in the bry from the min that you're allowed to bring the kiter you're not allowed to harvest it for the iM if it's from a min that you can't bring the kiter you are allowed to harvest it and therefore the kilik and the between the two bices is not about the location like the bashen or the valley but rather it's the specy of what kind of min it is and therefore the one that's not shy to the might be talking about the kinds of minim like the spelt oats and rye which are not shy to the carbon so maybe those could as opposed to which is for the carbon and therefore you have no mocker for it's not to say that the other could be harvested before the we learned on yesterday's d that all of those are going to be user before the carbon is brought then which has used that expression of which is There were other times that kazal did make a on the garbuda which are gamar is soon going to quote the price that is going to tell us the other times were about the yeah but what about the first part saying that it was to do the itself the says and now we're going to list them what were the ones that were okay with the number one of pes when certain were restricted still the people would do their grafting of their and that was okay but sounds like they went straight from hash to even though it sounds like according to Rashi we're skipping but says it's actually a cipher and of course Rashi means to or at least Rashi certainly means to include and that's part of the of the kit and lif and they would harvest all their grain before the carbon and they would do their kira which we're going to see is going to be the bas Before the all of that was what they do illegally, they would do the gadisha. They would stack it up even before the carbon was brought and they would be m of these special kinds of trees that were belonging to the basdos because the were makdish these different and shikma trees and the anacl would cut off the branches of these trees and have hana from them and figure that it was only the trunk of the tree that was going to be the hedish part. And they would make holes in the fences of their gardens and their would allow the anim to come into their backyards and their gardens to eat all the fallen fruit that came from the trees which seems like a really nice thing to do but didn't like this thing that the were doing because we were afraid that the poor people would climb the trees and be shabas. That's all mayor. If those first three cases the were doing it, why can't everybody do this? It sounds like only were able to do this. No, everything they did was really against the rules. The only question is whether or not but they were disproving of everything. The things that were not what were the things that they were turning over the head of the branches which was a big no no parts and they would also get pay from vegetables which you're not to get pay from vegetables It's not it doesn't last without refrigeration which they didn't have. So vegetables are never the mitzvah and you'd think to yourself well what's the big deal? Why can't you just give extra? No because if it's pa then it's from micers and you're being mim. So they were don't add extra pa when you're not for therefore but what are we taking out from all this is that the when they were doing their wanted this is connected our mishna that says that this was done. So you have a between that price and our mishna. So well, how do you even understand the price itself? Because shisha, there weren't six things like the biceave. There were actually seven because as you notice, we added the seventh of that pay for vegetables. Ella, you got to take one away. Take away the one about the and therefore they were only talking about six cases and therefore the price is not really a steer mishna. Then you're allowed to harvest the shakas because you're doing it for animal f. So that's not hustle. We learned in the Mishna in the second paric of PA. The following divide a field separating the corner of your field for pay a ravine a body of water these public and private paths that are always being used. If it's being used all year, the hab that means a field that's not being used, the han their or a plowed field, the zera or if there's a row of a different kind of thing that's planted than the surrounding rows like Rashi says, if you have a whole field full of wheat and you plant a row of adashim that will divide it shakas and if you do a kira of unripe grain meaning the shakas in the middle of the field it's mik it makes it into two fields debi mayor. So the katsira of shahakas according to ra mayor is not hakically considered a regular katira and therefore we view it not as the first stage of a regular bigger katira but it's an independent cutting that serves to divide the bigger soda into two smaller fields and a mafik if you do a kat on unripe grain it's not mafik unless you subsequently plow it but according to the it will have a kira unless you do that act of the plowing so mayashitim So now the Gamarra is going to go ahead and try to align with a few different tries. So we'll start off with Arab about being the shak is like the shimmarlish that you are allowed to do the before the and give it to your animal even after it's hit a shim. The reason why I can give the schlich to my animal is because that's not considered a legal kat. So mayor who talks about the division of a field for pa with a row of shakas is going to be in line with who holds that you can give the kaidum to your animal the schmita with mayor by pa working out with shim by a I'll ask you from aa let's say the locusts ate up a whole row of crops from the middle of a field or kirum mullum or the ants cut it up or shrat heruak or a wind broke it but some natural event made it that Now you can't be kiter both for mayor and the are going to be mask that mik if he subsequently plows it then you're going to divide it into two fields but ain't a mafik if you're not going to subsequently plow it it's not mik for two fields of paya now when the bry says that everybody's mask man who's it talking about who holds in the missiona that if you're kiter shakas it's going to divide into two even if it's not subsequently plowed up but here's mask that unless you plow it it's not going to divide up the field so if you want to say The mission is talking about a case where it did not yet hit a okay so what's that going to be talking about that's talking about where it already reached a third of its growth and that would explain why mayor is making between the kira of the Mishna and this piece that got had a natural disaster of the Bryce if the Mishna is also talking about where it hit a third of its growth which is what we're saying if a mayor holds like shim then we have a problem because that if a person is doing the Omar rebi mayor less Raer saying haste nishkain katira abra hawk about the case of the brya where the quote unquote katira is happening from this natural disaster of the locusts or the ants ly kulchain certainly that's not considered a katira and therefore rare should hold that this area that got a natural disaster to it should divide it into two fields but yet rare still says you have to do the karisha in order to make it into two fields which is a steer so the only way we don't have a steer in the mission in the brace is if doesn't hold his leg es can't go like shim and therefore is wrong. So mayor is going to be in line with a different when are you allowed to do a of this to give to your animals once it hit a it's going to be to do this for your animal. So according to Yehuda once you hit it's now going to be considered technically a proper kira and therefore you can't do it before the now will work with mayor who says in the mission Impea that it's all about a schlish or not a schlish. All right. So, we're still in the middle of this discussion, but we're going to pause it here.