Menachos Daf 46

All right, Daf Mev Thursdays do and we have been talking about the and the associated carbonus that are brought on Shivus. We had a mus between Riaka and bananas whether or not are the or the is the in other words could I bring the by themselves if you don't have the kfasim ribika says yeah but banana says just the opposite you could bring the kasim without the but not the other way around at the end of yesterday's shir we had the based on the now we're going to pick it up at the very bottom of moving over that if both and those were meaning somehow they became attached to each other meaning if something takes place that will bind these two things together then both and bananas will agree that one cannot be brought without the other and what is that thing that's going to bind them both together the zika that's going to be so as Rashi explains over here if you the while the are present then no matter if you are bananas or losing one will require the other one to be as it renders it completely useless and the carer points out that the even if you go and subsequently replace the kev or the lem with a new one. It won't help Omar. They had a sha inelfika thefa the waving that process that's done will that also achieve the same kind of zika as the shita does or does the tanufa not achieve that same zika. Now understanding the tnufa here there is two tnufis that happen with the kayeras one before the meim and one after the rashi explains we're talking about the one that's meim. So the that happened before the does that bind together the and the member of the which started off our today should be our from the fact that said as a matter of fact that the of the are going to be binding together these two items in such a way that one can never be brought without the other one. So that happens after. So clearly according to the know we actually was it only but the preceding is not going to be maybe he was only posit about the but he was about the and now a couple quick points to make on this. Number one, the posit of this suga is that we're only talking about the kayes and the whether or not when that zika is built, they're going to make it impossible to bring one without the other. However, there are other carbonas that we're bringing, right? You got seven kvasim, you got one par that's an you got the two is that are also you got the one s that's there's a whole bunch of carbonas that you're bringing and those were listed in the we talked about yesterday, but somehow we're only fixated on this two. So be aware that the mus says that all of these carbonas on and it's not only about the which is the pashes from rashi. Now back to the idea of the two tufis one and oneita. So our simple understanding as we're learning this gamarra is that there's two tunufi both for the animal and for the brriskarov says that of course there are two tunufi for the actual kev but there's only going to be one for the leim and he builds this based out of the raam that you can do the tufa with the leim or you can do it afterwards in other words you have that option which you don't have by the actual animal has to be done both times but only once for the leim and the reason why there's a kilik between the actual animal and the leim is because by the animal there's a difference in this carbon But there's no difference in the they don't change. The breads stay the same bread. So the brisk makes a sum is Rambam and Rashi. Rashi says that there will always be the two tufes. But according to the Rambam we could be mash of the cash from the Kanara because the Karan wants to know how could there be aad that thinks that maybe is going to create a zika but maybe tnufa will or won't. On the tsad that there is going to be a tanufa creating the zika then there'll be no opportunity for the to create that zika because it's already happened with the tanufa. based on this idea of the brisk in the raam it's not that you have to have the of the beforehand it's only if it happens but maybe you're supposed to do the after the back to the was the we had at the end of yesterday's that the is saying the carbon will be toe and to the perfect this is happening after the tanufa that was if you remember from yesterday this was kind of the point of how Darian this was going to be one of the makus that bananas and are going to argue about. So you see there's of whether or not one is of the other clearly this is after the and it doesn't create a zik which the says no come on that whole kash is flawed because of you're saying that the point where you give it to the is already after the it's also after the and we already said creates the zik and there shouldn't even be about that we're talking about before the which sounds like it should happen at the end of the process no this thing that ultimately is going to be given to the Cayenne after the after you do the it will be given to the Cayenne but you can't bring a that we're talking about actually at that point in the process this member of that both Benas and will be masking the zika I'm going to show you from a Bryce it's not that way the Bryce says and this Bryce is not talking about the carbonas on it's talking about the now the reason why we're jumping to is because it's also a time when you have a carbon and you have associated with it in that case it's more diamond to the but there's the same kind of bread based companion carbon so we think it might have the same idea so let's go to it there are many let's say before the carbon was one of the wasifas it broke apart we know that's a problem and there's different ways to understand why it's a problem either because if you break it apart now your number of wrong you had to have 40 and now you got 41 if it broke into two or it could be because the crumbs that happen when you have a broken kala and therefore it's in the interestingly this is the reason why we actually make a slice in our kala by hamzi on chabas and the reason is because really you want to minimize the amount between the braha and your eating. So really you're supposed to cut the bread before you make the bra to minimize that amount of heik. But on shabas we have a requirement of having schlamim. You're not allowed to cut it in advance. So the ver brings it the medaktakim make a small slice on a kala. But people make a to think that they have to find that little indentation slice that they made in order to minimize the heik. The problem is now they're looking for that line and that actually could create more. But anyway back to our let's say one of these got broken. So since you have not yet done the you can replace that and now go ahead and take care of your carbonite button. But let's say after it was then it was then you should still because as Rashi speaks out it's not so it's not a total waste. Sure, you've kind of ruined it, but you can still make it as a you do the but you still haven't been your is to bring a carbon and that which was you can't eat that. However, once the dam has already been and therefore you've already been your to bring the carbon but now you had no problems since you're not supposed to give a broken piece of to the you got to give from the scholars but otherwise you are taken care of. That's case number one of the Bryce. We're going to have two other similar cases of problematic carbonitis before we ask our next case. Let's say before the carbonit was there was a problem of being not from the mdash because you can eat the carbon anywhere in your but let's say left the walls of your bring it back inside no problem because you didn't do yet. So you still take care of but let's say after the carbon then in other words treat it like a carbon schlum do the regular za eat the regular you can't eat this kind of it's already had it and now there's you separate it from a good you'll be fine. Third case, let's say it became so because you're still safe. But once this happened and then the became well here in this case here now you can do this and you can eat and you are even sit because here you have the wonderful that sits being but still that particular loaf of bread should not be eaten but if it was already had its of course use the tar ones not the tom ones it's interesting that that sits as moratza And this sounds like this is a fine practice even though typically we only understand the tits being and over here picks up on that. He says it could be that since over here the is not the of the carbon. So that's why you can go through with it when the part of a carbon becomes and you're using the sits then you can't use the sits. It's only after the fact. Okay. So here we had this nice long bry that gave us three different when the bread became. And in all these cases once the is done it didn't just pass that it all the Rashi over here says like Rashi I don't know why all the other ones become ple just because just because man and then Rashi proceeds to suggest maybe it's like the which is also kind of one unit if one becomes puzzle the all of them become pleb Razner when he said the pointed out that in lists all the rashis that say loyana for whatever reason he doesn't list this one perhaps he suggested because rash here says vira and he gives his own idea but when he just says that's what Ricky is listing I'll go upon him what's the kasha from this if you're telling me that both according to like said the is going to create the zik and therefore don't talk to me about the becoming ple the should bind the of the with the carbon of the therefore it shouldn't be okay to do this alumim It should be pussle and gansson because of this zika. Now the gar is predicated on the idea that a carbon is just like our with the garlic. Now the very fact that you can go ahead and take the carbon and now dolman it's a different kind of animal no pun intended. So the schlim can exist and you find that aim can exist without any. So here also the fact that the lem became somehow ruined is not going to be a reason to possibly and therefore you can't bring a riot to me about there talking about the kadis and the that are associated on that we had declared before from that is also is and therefore turning over to and likewise ain't let's say the other side that maybe won't create the zika so now we have a shila And you did the with both of them and now I replaced that lost. Do I need to do a newf on that new replaced or not? And now I can limit it even more. If you lost the and not the then you need to do a but what happens about this bread that got lost and got replaced. Do you have to do and this is actually speaking to the heart of the matter if one is just kind of supporting the other one or they're two independent because according to who makes the even when the bread got lost that wouldn't be a sh and you don't need to do a new on those that were really not so important that puts all of that on the for the replacement are the still these are the that's really You can really hear the lumbness of what we're claring about how do we view these if we're not going to know the answer. Now the is going to ask that really should have been in the back of our minds the entire what's so special about the are so connected with these that we're talking about the zika as we mentioned earlier there's a host of other carbonas that you're bringing on you got seven other you got this other par you got these two other those are not machinim they're not why in the world don't we care as much about those so There's something special about the kayas and the because they did their own together either like rashi that you have to or maybe like the way the briskav understood the ram that you have the option to but you see that there is some sort of an independent relationship of these two things but the carbon that we wanted to compare it to yet still the carbon is okay are like the in a different Just like the carbon is aim so also become but the other carbonus that you're bringing those seven and the two those are and therefore they're not going to be the how can you even compare carbon to our carbon there are no other carbonas as we just mentioned but by there a whole bunch of other carbonas so you see inherently there should be different rules so let both the and the Ella. You know what? Stop comparing it to altogether. Let's compare to another one that brings breads and that's going to be elimas. These two different are just like the because he also brings a bunch of so and so also by the it's only going to be those that are and not all those you know by the does mean that are associated with it because the price tells us that the Torah says So it's going to be those specific by the which is going to be okay. Now that said that if you don't have the you could still bring the because the are the we learned in according to we're going in that are brought by themselves. Now what happens after you bring them? You do the tonfa but you can't eat them. You still have to leave them overnights. They become pleat and then you burn them. That is the bry. So even it's not like you eat these breads. You just can bring them in the sense that you could do theu with them and then you have to wait for the and then you burn them. So what's if you can eat them so then then let them eat them. Now if you tell me they got to be burned so then why do you have to wait for then alter? What's the point of waiting overnight until they have an Ebertsura, which by the way is a borrowed lotion anyway from the carbonas that dry out when you leave them overnight? The breads don't really rot overnight anyway. But what's the point of that if there's a mitzvah? Just take care of right away. So we'll do twoas for today's and then we'll continue again tomorrow. But let's do now first you could eat them now. You could eat this now according to but according to we don't want you to because next year you're going to be bringing youron and you're going to have but you're going to make a mistake you'll think last year I don't remember eating any of these we had without it so maybe even now even though we have the opportunity to eat the we're only going to eat the and they're not even going to realize what happened last year was you didn't have the and the were because so because of that that's why we don't want you to eat these how do I know this that you're allowed to eat from the because the Mishna in the first says hey the who's not counted as part of Israel and you'd think okay he's part from the but if he wants to give the no problem he can do that it's not True. He has to give the he doesn't if he doesn't give it. And why? Let's explain. Because the would make their own mistaken to themselves. What would be that the not supposed to eat from his own carbon? We're going to learn more about later in the but he's got his when he starts the entire gets burned in it in its entirety. Soon. So the based on this can make the following mistaken argument and say since the carbon and are ours because we're being with the we shouldn't eat it. So clearly the is telling us that we shouldn't give them so we shouldn't have in it. Okay that's the Mishna is even talking about came along with a carbon. How could the even ask how are we supposed to eat it? Why would the ask how can we eat it? The kahan do eat it. We must be talking about a case where the were brought by themselves and the associated carbon wasn't brought and therefore but the mission says how are they supposed to be eaten that would be the mistaken the ask the are supposed to eat the are brought by themselves without the associated carb. It must be we're talking about where are coming by themselves and not with the associated carbon. And you see you're supposed to eat these things to riot because we're talking about with did come with a carbon and this that you asked do eat it because those are not called but so it's a misnomer because it says bye. So you don't have a ria though. We're talking about the kind of that are brought without any carbon altogether. Those may be you're not allowed to even eat. All right. But that was all has another really you're supposed to burn the are brought by themselves right right away. So why don't we talk about burn it right away? Why do we have to wait for? Because you're not supposed to burn these things on. You have to wait till y's over me dummy. You're talking about carbon. You're not supposed to burn on you're comparing that to our case. When carbonas become puzzle, it's not that there's a mitzvah to burn them. It just happens to be that you got to burn them and you got to wait till after because practically speaking, you can't do if you tell me that the actual procedure is they need to be burned. So, what are you waiting for which becomes it mitzvah? You know why you're not supposed to burn these things on because maybe you'll have the opportunity to still be able to salvage the situation by finding still on. So we delay burning the as long as we can to give us that opportunity and therefore we're not really waiting for but you give it the day before actually burning it that only works until the carbon is brought which is later that day. Why are we waiting until nightfall or overnight rather you should burn it after that seems to what do we mean by the means the regular format of how you do that's what needs to change but You're not going to really wait until the next day. You're only going to wait till later that day till after that to is brought.