Menachos Daf 109

Okay, Duff cuff test. Thursday's Duff, as we continue to talk about these nadarim where it's unclear what you meant. Frect the Gemara now, the bottom two dots on cuff resin the base maysave. The brysa says, "By us the base and my I'm going to sell you a house from within my homes." Then naffle and then one of them fell down. So of course the seller wants to say, "Hey, the one that fell down, that was yours." Like in the stack the so day you kind of an idea. So the brysa says, "In a my ray you naffle, you can show him the one that fell down." Said, "Tough luck, buddy." And likewise, eved ba'avodai ani my I'm going to sell you one of my avadim who mays and then one of his avadim dropped dead. Dead. My ray you mays, you can show him the one that died. Moving over to midalif frect the Gemara of am I Lexi a day naffle a day mays. Let's see which one fell down and determine which is the biggest one cuz that's what we had said that you got to give the biggest one of your shvarim. But if it wasn't the biggest one, the moicher now has to say it was the biggest one that died. But if it wasn't the biggest one that died, then the moicher now has to give the biggest house or the biggest eved to the lekech which the Gemara answers now we finally make a chilik between hegdish and mekach umemkar. The lekech koamerit shani lekech ti ad bal al tachtena. Because we have a concept of al avoraia. But on hegdish we don't say this rule and that's why in a chonomi you got to give the biggest one to hegdish. That actually does sound a lot like that rib chonomi that we mentioned. The Gemara's off now hash to das is lucky. I feel the time of the gria. We can even go back to yesterday's Duff and say that when we're talking about the alia we actually meant the upstairs, the attic which is the shvach the house. But it's not really a steer as what we're saying about hegdish because the ad bal al tachtena. So the mishna haray ol I guys is I'm going to bring a carbon oil even in the migdash. Of course you got to bring it in the base migdash. They make it a base chonyai lo yatsa. What's base chonyai? We're going to talk about a lot in today's Duff. It was this false base migdash that was built in Alexandria by chonyai the son of shimon at tsadik godol to shilo whether it was a base mizero or not. But anyway, if a guy says I'm going to bring a carbon oil and he brings it in base chonyai he says lo yatsa. And likewise if he says haray oil shat akriven base chonyai he speaks up a fair that I want to bring it in a base chonyai then yakriven a migdash you have to bring it in the base migdash. And if you just glance over at the top taysis this is not an issue of tough reason like we were saying in the previous sugias. And we'll see more in the Gemara about this. The in hekriva base chonyai let's say the guy actually goes to Egypt brings his carbon oil in the base chonyai then he is yatsa. Not that he's an okay guy. He still may be chories but he's yatsa his neder to bring the oil. But reb shimon ain zoo oil. It was never hegdish as reb shimon which is harkening back to reb shimon back on cuff gimel in the mishna where it said if you don't bring it as not it's not going to be hegdish in the first place. Harayni nozer migdash. If someone says I'm going to be a nozer you have to do the giloch in the base migdash. If giloch the base chonyai lo yatsa. Likewise if you go to base chonyai and do the giloch there no you're not yatsa your giloch. Harayni nozer shagalach base chonyai. If you speak it out you got to lay in migdash also. If giloch in base chonyai yatsa. But likewise reb shimon ain zoo nozer. Same idea. Now this idea that if you go ahead and you say I'm going to bring this oil in the base chonyai and you do it in the base chonyai you are yatsa. Zok the Gemara yatsa. Homik katla. That's not a kosher shita outside the base migdash. It's like you shot the animal in the head. As reb writes over here that it's noichra. It's like stab the animal when you do that kind of a shita. You shouldn't be your neder. Amar reb huna nase koamer haray oil al menashe chayev chories zok to hamnuda. It's like he spoke out that I'm just going to bring this animal to the base chonyai and just kill it. But it's he actually made this promise to not even do the shita. So he's not to replace it with another animal therefore he'll be yatsa. But again as rashi speaks out a fair this guy ain't a good guy. He'll be chayev chories because he took an oil and he did it incorrectly. But the neder he will be yatsa because that is a fulfillment to just kill it and not have to replace if he didn't do a kosher shita. Now this guy who's saying I'm going to bring an oil and I'm going to do it incorrectly it really does seem to shmek of kosa betaira. And you're on the right track if you have that issue. That's actually taysis kasha in that really important shas taysis in that is probably the most important taysis in shas when it comes to tenoyim. That's the famous taysis that wants to know how does kosa betaira work. And he says because tenoyim are really a chidish so if you take away the chidish you're left with the maysa and that's why the maysa will be kayem. But taysis over there in machal between our sugia here in menachos and the classic sugia of betaira because betaira is only when you're trying to be oiker a din in the taira. Here this guy is just making stuff up it's not really being oiker a din in the taira. There is no such thing as being makrov the carbon in base chonyai. Now this rashi that speaks out that you are going to be yatsa because you made that tenai that you're not chayev yourself it's actually the muker for an important mordechai. The mordechai says that if a person takes a mashkin against a chayev and then the deal that the malva and the leva make that the malva says I'm not taking any responsibility for your mashkin over here. So the mordechai says and this is that you will talk and not be responsible for the mashkin. And see him brought that way in simon safzion that you're not even a din of you're putter from shia. And the mordechai is basing this on our Gemara and our rashi that even if you just stab the animal to death you are not responsible for replacing it because that's the deal you made. The tumin discuss this mordechai and have big problems by comparing masech and mashkin to our sugia because the truth is if you're masech hegdish you're going to be putter. So to go ahead and learn the rules of from hegdish to mishpat is a bit challenging. But anyway we're saying the case is there was chayev amar reb el miata that's the case safe tenai harayni nozer shagalach base chonyai you got to lay in migdash giloch in base chonyai yatsa that you are yatsa your chayev of giloch. So the nase koamer harayni nozer shalay chories carbon nozer lay masech carbon lay if you don't bring your carbon you'll never be kosher to drink wine and become tame mays. In other words you're never absolved of your chories in to be a nozer. Elo amar reb another pshat. The guy who is makavel to bring this oil al dem zela diran he wasn't really bringing it as an oil in the first place. He was just bringing it as a diran as a gift. And amar what he's saying is he sagiv base chonyai turachna. You know I live near base chonyai so if I'm yatsa by bringing it there fine. But lo matzina it's the ura. I'm not going to be myself more to shlep it all the way to yerushalayim. So nozer nami I got to now she come a chavin. So amar base chonyai turachna but lo matzina it's the ura. I'm not going to be myself any more than that. That's reb's suggestion. That really he's not even bringing it as an oil. The oil over here is tamua that well if he's only bringing it as a diran and not an oil isn't it I mean it should be chulin bazara. So he deals with that issue. The reb hamnuna amar reb back to reb that nozer is kamrit. Nozer that is like you said that he's only trying to do this to himself that he was being nafsh chavin. He wants to go ahead and take on the nazirus because he's maybe because he's a masochist or because he wants to work on his own or whatever his reason is but he's not really doing it off the nazirus. But oil shalay chayev koamer. But that first part about when it comes to the oil he's trying to really make the tenai. So you can't ask me a kasha from nozer cuz we're splitting up the two cases. The reb amar reb amar reb amar reb amar reb amar reb shalay prevent a base chonyai. The hekriva eretz yisrael yatsa chories. In a chonomi it will work but he's going to get chories. So it must be a kosher carbon like reb hamnuna was saying. But according to reb he's not even bringing a carbon he's just bringing this diran. Tani nami the brysa says haray oil shat akriven midbar. This guy is mistaken by thinking if I bring it in the midbar where the mishkan once was oh sure the kedusha is still there. It's not true. There's not even any kedusha by the makom of har sinai certainly not by the midbar where the mishkan was. And the hekriva ever hayarden and he brings it ever hayarden which rashi over here calls it eretz yisrael. Important rashi when you're doing your geography of where the borders of eretz yisrael are. Yatsa chories. Zok the mishna. More about base chonyai. Hakoyhanim she shimshu base chonyai. Let's say you have the koyhanim who actually did the avoida there. What's the status of these koyhanim now? Lo yashamshu base migdash yerushalayim. They are passul. And we're not talking about before they did chuva. Obviously if they haven't done chuva yet they can't do the avoida. But even chuva they cannot any longer work in the base migdash. Certainly if they actually did avoida zara cuz as we're going to see there's a whether or not was base chonyai a base or not. Shanamar koyhanim base yerushalayim. Ki matzays base and therefore haray kabalay mumim which means they can actually have a of the carbon but they can't do the avoida themselves. Amar reb zok the Gemara shochat let's say a koyhan does the shita for avoida zara then does chuva now wants to work in the base migdash the is carbon it works. A koyhan that did a shita can do avoida. Why? Because shita itself is not really an avoida. It is interesting that the Gemara uses this expression of not just simply saying it's kosher. But anyway what's the muker? Amar reb bar avdimi my kora. What's the muker that the shita avoida zara doesn't passul the koyhan from his avoida? Cuz the passuk says you wasted your time but you make sure I'll no sasi yodi no shimon no sasi you see no sasi so since this passuk is saying that the koyhanim did a did a avoida for these zaras so in if it has a din of an avoida then they'll be passul from the base migdash. But as we said as we said many times it's not really an avoida to do the shita. Shita is bizarre. So therefore if a koyhan does the shita in a base avoida zara then does chuva he can now do the avoida in the base migdash. It mar. Shogak let's say he accidentally did the which certainly is an avoida. So reb nachman amar reb if he does chuva he can now do avoida but reb amar no it's game over for him. Ain reb amar reb me la. The reb base yisrael so my love oil it sounds like either way either he did a or an and those are the two different categories and therefore both of them should passul him. Amar reb nachman amar the it's one category. I'll just point out that there's an important taysis on the mishna. The taysis brings from the safer here if a mumar someone who's and then they do chuva are they going to be passul from avoida permanently? And it's to if a who was one time can he now as brought by the shulchan cuff cuff saf Zion based on our rashi that we can be but it's not so and these are because different things that passul koyhan for avoida would passul the also namely killing somebody. Reb says some famous about people who killed other people if they can one classic is going to be reb base about a who kills people during a war time where he says and therefore of course they can definitely looking But in a different chuva, he talks about Nebuchadnezzar koyhan in a car accident and killed somebody accidentally, that's in case of Zion in the it's going to depend on the circumstances of how much of an versus how much of a was. Anyway, back to of Nachman saying this coin that did chuva from his Zvika is is going to be possible for the and we know the coin because the price is for a coin that is and this is specifically talking about a for the of and the coin is the coin can bring his own by what are we talking about that he can bring his own car car that is in the only did for the is a if you know me because we said is not and the we must be talking about where he did the and yet we see he can bring his own carbon must be he's not possible for the but the it wasn't over but even you even you can say the is not but if he does it still that's enough that it should still possible him because he's now a for he's a he's a the priest it doesn't make sense that he should be able to bring his own carbon if he would do the to amazing but also you both of are the was on purpose checked for of Nachman carbon let me of summer and carbon even if you can tell me is not of Nachman carbon because the law of it's not technically an of of summer and carbon turning over to because just the kind of person he is is going to possible him right away from doing in the of Nachman we know how do I know that if you the amazing for it's not going to possible kind of Tanya because the price says of carbon is never mind what kind of did he do you know what you mean so what do you mean he did a so he was always a he didn't in the first place and whenever you talk about a you got to be talking about somebody who actually did amazing he he wouldn't even help if he did a for he did an actual which possible him and void and so must be see that if he does the from his it's and it'll be kosher either of summer and carbon the price is talking about a coin who did the of the and what does it mean if you show me if he was always if he but when he did the he did it but we're talking about was he a show before he did it but if he was not a show and he didn't do it then carbon it will be possible if let's say the coin did a and that's not a technical but it's not a good thing to do to but it is is considered a of so of Nachman of carbon of summer and carbon of the of the price is to the so of Nachman carbon of summer and carbon of the each one of these cases which seem to be very similar are all needed because but the coin who did the I would have said but he because of because he did an actual technical of the law of in of Nachman but because of the of it's called an of otherwise the law of it's not really an even for the it's not really an in my life maybe wouldn't be possible the coin so we can therefore I need also because there is this actual activity that he did for the of so only and therefore I need all these different cases for and the mission said certainly if the went to and they did of so in this mission in of the the of must be that from our mission was not in a of so commander must be going the of who did the price is when he died only who he told the when he came out of the of on that this is my year that I'm going to die he knew it they said to me how do you know that you're going to die this year he said this is when I would be in the I would see a who was wrapped in white but this year is I saw the old man dressed in black he didn't go out with me so that was a that I'm going to die and and all the other were themselves from using the shame we'll talk about that in a minute but first this first part that he saw the wearing the white and then wearing the black and they took that as a he was going to die now can anybody else be in the of with and the the actually asks this as a question and the answers that it must have been the now there is a about why is there an to be in the of during the is it going to be because there's an on the to be in there or is because it possible the so if you learn this just an to be in there on the you can understand why it's if it's the but if it's there because the other presence will possible the that could potentially be a problem official discusses this as well as the at the by his father said a in this that it wasn't an rather he was understanding that that he understood not like in the that the was a representative of and because when he was able to see wearing white there was hope for there was positivity but once the himself only saw what he interpreted as wearing black that he could no longer see the positivity in was going down a dark path he recognizes if I can't see the positivity in my people I can't be them so it's a lesson for leadership and have to be able to see the positivity in the people you lead but now the says that after he died the other weren't with the of which is a big in the even does that mean that they couldn't or didn't according to the in where this also appears it's just because they had a to do it so they chose not to do it but if they are to do it of course they would have been to still do it especially since they just forgot how to do it anyway continuing this when was dying he said that my son should become the this so his brother became very jealous of he was two and a half years older so developed an evil plan to get out of the picture said to but I'm going to say that I'm going to I'm going to teach you how to do the of he'll be the he dressed him in these women's clothing amazing story he must have convinced him that this is the best thing to wear went with him next to the so he then told the other who were there he set him up look at what my brother did and he did this clearly just because he wanted to impress his wife he must have told his wife on the first day I'm going to be a but I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to wear your clothes to show how much I love you so I guess he didn't have time to explain himself >> [clears throat] >> the other went to kill him he ran away they chased him Alexandria who he built a there boy he was really frustrated to the point where he actually did because he who hadn't even gotten the actual but became so jealous that he wanted to kill his own brother and take his place of certainly a person who actually gets the he's really having problems and says that we have to be very careful not to be so he shouldn't be himself okay that's all different that's the version of that's a but our mission actually is going to be going it was not a and here's the version of the story of according to of but he was not from his father the he was two and a half years older than me he should be my older brother years older than me he should be the what happened was he had that he gave away the he became jealous of his brother and now wanted to be the so he said to but I'm going to say that and he he set up his brother and but I'm going to say that and look at what my brother did he's wearing his wife's clothes that he must have said he but I'm going to say that and so now the wanted to all kill but at least he apparently had a chance to defend himself he told the of everything that his evil brother tried to have him killed so now now the wanted to kill so they chased him they even ran towards the they chased him whoever saw him pointed to him hey that's him let's get him and this massive so Alexandria he went to who who and he went ahead and built it not for but rather to fulfill this that he said the price of finally the price of the price of finally finishes off the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the price of finally the