Menachos Daf 107

Okay, Daf Kuf Zion, Tuesday's Daf, and we're holding on Kuf Vav Mem Bet on the fourth wide line at the two dots. The mission If a guy says, "I'm going to bring Levana," he can't bring less than a Kaimetz. The pasuk says, to the separation, the Harama of that sale of the carbon Mincha. That is also a Kaimetz. So, that'll be the amount you bring which promise to bring Levana. "To the Rabonon and Haray Olam is Ba'er." "I'm going to bring something for the Mizbeach." But, you didn't specify what you're bringing. So, the Halacha is Yavi Levana. You got to also bring Levana. That's what is a carbon on the Mizbeach. It's completely burned. Everything else is only partially burned as we're going to see more about in the Gemara soon. Now, Pirash Day Am Pirash. If I say, "I promised something and I wasn't Mefarish, I just don't remember what I was Mefarish," then Yavi Mechol Davar Shekariv LaMizbeach. You have to bring something from everything that's brought on the Mizbeach. Cuz that will include all the things that don't even completely get burned on the Mizbeach. Prak Gemara V'Suleka. So, you have to bring all the different things that are completely brought on the Mizbeach and nothing is given to the Kohanim. So, whereas before where you said LaMizbeach, you meant specifically Levana. But, if he was Pirash Day Am Pirash, it's going to be more expansive, include things like an Ail Sa'if and Minchas Nesachim, which are also not eaten by the Kohanim, but you're not just going to say that they're completely on the Mizbeach and burned completely. But, Prak Gemara on that initial Halacha that LaMizbeach is going to be specifically the Levana. V'Suleka, Bo Eika Aila. The whole carbon Aila gets burned on the Mizbeach. So, why wouldn't that be included? If the Gemara cuz Eika Aila Kohanim. It's not true. You don't burn everything on the Mizbeach. The Aila is given to the Kohanim. Okay, Bo Eika Ail Sa'if, which there is no Aila that you give to the Kohanim. If the Gemara Eika turning over to Mem Bet because you have the Mura and Netza. You got those parts of the bird, the feathers, the crop of the bird. Those are not brought on the Mizbeach. And therefore, that's not completely something that is LaMizbeach. However, you can Nesachim. And what do you do with Nesachim? You put the whole thing on the Mizbeach. That's not really true either because LaShishin Ozli. It goes down the tubes. Meaning, it goes down the Shishin. So, that's not really burned on mizbeach and goes in and therefore won't be classified like it's completely burned on the mizbeach like the lebayna would be. However, you can minchas nesachim, that associated carbon mincha that's brought along with the nesachim and there's no chametz from that mincha. It's completely burned. So, maybe that's what you included. No, because kivan de ikka mincha de achlika kahanaim ainay since you have a parallel kind of a mincha which kahanaim do eat, like psikalay. The guy who was saying on the mizbeach and now doesn't remember he would not have meant that thing that has a parallel that the kahanaim would eat from. Then the mishna said haray alay zavli ifresh midinar zav. You can't give less than a gold dinar if you promised gold. Now, vedominaska, maybe you don't mean a gold coin at all, maybe you mean a piece of gold, an ingot of gold which is worth less than the dinar of zav. Amar Rebbi Elazar, ed amar matbayah, we're talking about where he said it was a coin. Well, vedomin aprutay, who says it's a gold dinar, maybe he meant a prutah of gold which is less. It's a coin but it's much less. Amar Rebbi Papa, prutay did have a layav dinshi, that is so uncommon that there's no way he would have meant that. Okay, continues the mishna, kesef layav ifresh midinar. If a guy is nider kesef, he can't bring less than a silver dinar. Vedominaska, maybe also it's going to be a piece of silver. Amar Rebbi Elazar, ed amar matbayah, he said a coin. Well, vedomin aprutay, maybe he meant a smaller kind of a coin. Amar Rebbi Shayshis pasul layasuki prutay de kaspa, we're talking about a location where they didn't use a prutah made of silver in their coinage. So, it must have meant a dinar of kesef. Nechashis, like the gemara, layav ifresh mimah kesef, you don't give less than a silver mah. And this is a quote from the mishna. It's interesting the mishna didn't say that you bring a copper prutah, but that's because that's such an insignificant amount that people wouldn't give that to the Beis Hamikdash. That's what the rishonim speak out on the mishna. Tanyah, we learned in a braisa, Rebbi Eliezer ben Yaakov omer, layav ifresh mitinura katana shel nechashis. Don't bring less than a small copper fork. That's the tinura katana. So, Rebbi Chaziya, what practical use can you do with that small copper fork in the Beis Hamikdash? Amar Rebbi Chaziya, shemachatit in bapsilis umakanchin ban nayrais. Trim the wicks and clean up the nayrais of the menorah. So, it has a use. Barzel, let's say you promised to bring barzel to the Beis Hamikdash. Tanyah, we learned in the braisa, achairim omrim, layav ifresh mikali ayrayv. The minimum amount of barzel you give is for the kali ayrayv. We just mamish had this in the mishnayis and midos that we're learning. Now, at the time of the Beis Hamikdash, they had these kali ayrayvs to keep the the away cuz birds on roofs are not a good combination. It's also the cover of the base of English. They had these things either they were sharp or they scared away the birds. Whatever the call you are physically was, it was a certain size and I'm a buyer Numa and kept the birds away. If the common how much was it on Ravi Takamama, Tysus brings from the or that we must be talking about by a shiny cuz by a shiny we didn't need to have the call you are right because the shrine was there so there was no problem of these birds on top of by a shiny. So reminiscence of the Gamara in Suka and where it says that when he was learning Tyra that a bird that would fly head would be mead Nisraf. Rashi says over there that the reason why the birds would burn up is because since the Malachim wanted to hear the Tyra of Yanas and Ben Uziel and Malachim are made of fire, any birds that would pass over his head would instantly explode into flame. Tysus over there says no, it's cuz it's Kaneshinus and Mesinai and just like the shrine was there by Sinai so too the birds would burn up. So I don't know if this is a Tysus solution to say but it does seem to make sense to put these two Tysus in together where the Nikuda is it by by a shrine yeah the shrine therefore the birds would burn up and so to the birds would burn up over Yanas and Ben Uziel because it was Kaneshinus and Mesinai. The Amory the same point was made in another way. Lo Yifches Me'amala don't give less to the base of English than in Amma by Numa cuz Lo May what would be used for Amma of the call you are right. Okay. So the Mishnah Are you lying if someone says I'm going to bring Dafka wine. As you remember from the Mishnah on Shabbos is Dafka we keep in whether or not person can bring only Shemen as a carbon but certainly can bring Yain by itself. So the is if you say Yain you don't say how much Yifches Mishlo that's the minimum amount. Shemen if you say you're going to donate Shemen we're not talking necessarily about the carbon by itself. That would be the we keep in Tuffin. But if you're going to give to the base of English Shemen, how much Shemen do you have to give? Rabbi Imer Shlisha Lugan. Even for the oil you have to give three Lugan. Pirashi Vini Pirashi I did say how much but I just don't remember how much I said I was going to give. Yovi Kia Maruba you have to now bring the amount of oil that you would bring on a Yai Maruba which is the maximum amount. The Gamara is going to tell us what that means. Don't worry about them. Ezrach this is from the Posik that you have to bring in a Sukam with your oil and your Shlomen. And we dash in from this extra word of Ezrach that you can bring Yain on its own as Nasachim as a Nadev. are made The common how much is that minimum? You can add more than three less than three very exact. You have to do at least three. But that's whether or not the minimum of Shemen is one or three but my I'm ruler of Papa. It's It's another example of the rule of Drasho. If A is learned to B, do all the Halachas of A go over to B or can we just learn a little bit from A but A stays where it is and doesn't transfer over to B. And therefore you can also bring from Shemen and you continue to learn from it that even though that's [clears throat] not the Halacha by the Yayin. You have to actually learn from it in its own context meaning all the Halachas. That what it's him. It's limited to only three of Shemen and you won't be in the one but rather the three just like by the Yayin. If Rebbe learned the Shemen but coming from Mincha and even Rebbe tell me no that you could continue to learn from it and even say a single but was the limit Rebbe Rebbe learns that the Nidvas Shemen comes from the word Ezra. Can you say that Rebbe learns that you could be Shemen from Ezra. I have a learned in the carbon we the common so much who says that the minimum is three. Our mission of Rebbe you see Rebbe is the one in the but he hasn't learned from Ezra he learns from carbon. So Papa if fine if that's the way you learned it that's the way you learned it I'm not going to argue with that. Then the mission ended up by saying you have to bring the amount that is brought on the biggest day. And what day is that? So The first day of Sukkot is a hugely busy day in the base of English. It's not probably the busiest day. The busiest day is probably air of Pesach. But this is the biggest day of the carbonus tzibur when the first day of Sukkot falls out on a Shabbos. Cuz then you're going to have 13 parim, 14 kvasim, two ayalim, two all of them will require the associate nasachim. Going to be a ton of stuff. And therefore, if you do all the math, you're going to require 78 lugim of shemen and 78 So the next Mishnah, as we come back to more zevachim dikka inyanim, hare alai oila. Let's say somebody says, "I'm going to bring an oila." But that's all the details he gave us. So the halacha is yavi keves. You bring a little chef shula. Cuz there's a whole menu of different animals you could bring for an oila. Shar, par, keves, ayil, etc. But the halacha is you bring the minimum smallest one, which is the keves. Rebbe Elazar ben Azarya omer, "I tar oy ben yayna." You can even give a bird as an oila. Cuz they're even cheaper. Pirash min habakar v'ein yada ma pirashti, I don't remember what kind of animal of bakar that I specified. So the halacha is yavi par v'egel. Min habaheima v'ein yada ma pirashti, which is broader. Well, now yavi par v'egel, ayil, sa'ir, g'di, taleh. Pirash v'ein yada ma pirashti, turning over to tum bayis meisa v'ein tar u ben yayna. Now you got to add every kind of animal plus the birds. Hare alai toda ushlamim, which can both be a zachar animal or an nekeiva animal. So the halacha is yavi keves. Pirash min habakar, if I was mefarish for my toda or my shlamim from bakar v'ein yada ma pirashti, so yavi par u para and an egel v'egla. Min habaheima, if I said I'm going to bring a toda or shlamim from beheima, very ambiguous v'ein yada and v'ein yada ma pirashti, then yavi par u para, egel v'egla, ayil u chaila, sa'ir v'seira, g'di u g'dia, taleh v'talia. Bring every possible kind of animal, zachar and nekeiva. And the moral of the story is, kids, write down your promises. Hare alai shar, I'm going to bring a shar. The halacha is yavi hu u nisachav b'mona. So the value of the actual shar itself loss its associate nisachim will equal a mona, which is another way of saying 100 dinar. Now if he said egel yavi hu u nisachav b'chameish, if he said I'm going to bring an egel and its associate nisachim, which are worth five, meaning five Slaim, or in other words, 20 dinarim. Or if he said, "I'll yovi who in a Sak of Pishtaim." If he says he's going to bring an ile, he's got to bring eight ile with its associated in a Sak, which are worth two Slaim. "Kevis yovi who in a Sak of Bisela." That the Kevis and its associated in a Sak have to be worth at least a Sela. "Shar be mana." If he says I'm going to bring a shar that's worth a mana, "Yovi be mana chutz min a Sak." Then that shar has to be worth a mana aside from its associated in a Sak, because he said that the shar was going to be worth a mana. You can't include the Sak. And likewise, "Egel be chamesh, yovi be chamesh chutz min a Sak." "Ile be shtaim, yovi be shtaim chutz min a Sak." "Kevis be sela, yovi be sela chutz min a Sak." Now, if he said, "Shar be mana, the hevi shnayim be mana." If he says I'm going to bring a shar that's worth a mana, and then he brought two shvarim together worth a mana, it's not going to work. Because he promised to bring one shar that was worth a mana, not the two shvacha shvarim. "Ve a filu zeh be mana chosir dinar u zeh be mana chosir dinar." Even if each one is worth a mana less than a dinar, meaning it's worth 99 dinarim, and collectively it's worth much more, it doesn't matter, cuz he didn't bring the minimum amount that he said that that shar was going to be worth. "Shachar be hevi lavan." If he says he's going to bring a black one and he brought a white one, or "Lavan be hevi shachar." Or "Gadol be hevi katan." Let's say he brought a smaller one, lo yatza. However, "Katan be hevi gadol, yatza." If he promised to bring a small one and he brought a bigger one, then it will be okay, but Rebbi Omer lo yatza. And we'll see in the Gemara about what they're arguing about. Now, so the Gemara, getting back to the beginning of the Mishna between Machlokes Tana Kamma and Rebbi Eliezer ben Azarya, if you can bring a bird when you didn't specify the kind of oil, "V'al pligi mar ki asrei u mar ki asrei." Whether or not you could be yozei by bringing these cheap birds, it depends on these Tanaim where they lived, where the price of birds, if they were actually cheaper than the cheaper animals. "Tana Rabbanan u Rebbi Eliezer ben Azarya harei oila be sela l'mizbeach." If someone says they're going to bring an oila that's worth a sela, "Yovi kevis." They bring this shepsela, this little lamb. "She'ain lo davar shakar be sela l'gabei mizbeach ela kevis." Now, Pirashti veni d'ama pirashti, I don't remember what I said. "V'en yovi mikol davar shakar be sela l'gabei mizbeach." You have to bring from all the different things that are worth a sela that are brought on the mizbeach. Even though typically the sela would refer to the kevis, but since he actually was mefarish and doesn't remember what he was mefarish, you got to be yotzei all your sfekos by bringing every different possibility. Why do you got to bring both? Leisi par and mona shach, just bring the par whether or not his actual neder was to bring the par or the egel, just bring the bigger thing. Rebbi is the one who's makpid that you can't just bring the bigger one. You don't say the b'chlal masai mona kind of an idea. So therefore I can't just bring the bigger par if I'm only supposed to bring the egel. You're not yotzei if you don't bring an actual shav that's worth a mona. However, katan b'heivi gadol will be yotzei to that Rebbi omer lo yotzei. You're going to tell me the beginning of the Mishnah and the end of the Mishnah is all shitas Rebbi that you don't say this b'chlal masai mona kind of an idea, but the middle of the Mishnah is the Rabbanan? How do you read a Mishnah like that? To which the Gemara says, yeah, I have no problem with that. There is a machlokes Rebbi and Rabbanan whether or not you can use the bigger animal to be yotzei your smaller chiyuv. All right, we're going to call it here at the two dots, pick it up tomorrow as we close in on the end of this masechta.