Menachos 106

Today's daf is Menoachis daf kuf vov. And we are nine lines from the top of daf kuf vov amud alef omalei Rav Kahana and Rav Ashi. So, in yesterday's daf, we began a new perek, the final perek of Meseches Menoachis, perek alef alef isorin. And as we saw, the opening Mishnah is fairly technical. It discusses somebody who was mekabel on himself to bring a Mincha, but in the best case, he did it in a vague way. In the worst case, he doesn't even remember what he said. The bottom line is the Mishnah gave us a whole bunch of different halachos related to how exactly we would treat a situation like that. We're in the middle of one of the cases in the Mishnah. The Mishnah had said that if somebody said that "Perashti, I was mekabel to bring a Mincha, I was mefarish which type of Mincha, but I have no idea eez a man perashti. I can't remember which one it was." Meaning, I can't remember if it was a Mincha Soidas, Mincha Machvas, Mincha Marcheshes. >> [snorts] >> Maybe it was a Mincha Ma'afai Tinur. And even in the world of Mincha Ma'afai Tinur, I don't know if it was the Chalois or the Rekikin. I'm completely confused. Says the Mishnah, "Yovi chamesh ton." You bring all five of the aforementioned Menoachis, and like this, you'll be yoitza. Now, when you bring them, you make a tinai. You say that the one that I was mekabel previously to bring, meaning the one that I'm mechuyav to bring now because of that original neder, I want that to be the one that will fulfill that neder. The other four are going to be brought betairus nedava. The bottom line is "Yovi chamesh ton." And by this, you'll be able to satisfy memon nafshach what your obligation was. Now, the halacha of the Mishnah "Yovi chamesh ton" is predicated on the fact there's five possibilities, right? It's just those five. Can't have more than five. Now, the truth is, we saw in yesterday's daf a whole gishmak arichus, that's [snorts] only true in the world of the Chachamim the like Rav Shimon. But according to Rav Shimon bar Yochai, there actually is more than five possibilities because Rav Shimon bar Yochai's shita was that the Mincha Ma'afai Tinur could be brought mechtza chalois, mechtza rekikin. And oh, by the way, mechtza doesn't mean necessarily 50/50, but any one of the 10 chalois al libei Rav Yehuda or any one of the 12 chalois al libei Rav Meir can be other other, which means you have multiple possibilities. You have 14 or maybe even as high as 16 possibilities. And achinam according to Rav Yirmiya, the Mishnah was taka like Rav Shimon. Abaye had a way jumping through several hoops to make the Mishnah work even al libei Rav Shimon. But the bottom line is, high level, there are five options. Break the Gemara on that. Am libei Rav Kahana and Rav Ashi, Rav Kahana told Rav Ashi, "Is that true? There's only five?" But Yikol Sefek of a Mincha Nisochin. There's always the possibility that maybe this person took upon himself to bring a Mincha Nisochin. Am libei Rava, Rava said in two days ago's daf, "Misnadev odom Mincha Nisochin bechol yom." That a person, if he wants, can bring a Mincha Nisochin every single day. Now, the Mincha Nisochin was the Korban Mincha that was brought together with many of the Korbanos, which usually associates it with a Korban that's being brought. Stating that Rava said a chiddush that if a person wants to bring the Mincha Nisochin as a standalone, that's something [snorts] that would be okay. In fact, Rava proved it from the Mishnah in the end of the previous perek, "Mitivrei Shnayim." Shnayim referring to Rav Akiva and Rav Tarfon. "Nilmad Misnadev odom Mincha Nisochin bechol yom." But the bottom line is, there's another possibility. Maybe he meant the Mincha Nisochin, which by the way has a whole different Shulchan Aruch. There's no kemitza. Not just that, it comes with yayin. So, there's different halachos related to the Mincha Nisochin. So, Rav Kahana turns to Rav Ashi and he says, "I don't understand. Two days ago, we mentioned Rava's shita who holds "Misnadev odom Mincha Nisochin bechol yom." Which means a person can bring a Mincha Nisochin binidava. So, what is the Mishnah? If a person says "Perashti ve'eini idea eez a man perashti, yovi chamesh ton." Lo chereish, you should have to bring six, the five plus the Mincha Nisochin. So, the Gemara says, "Kikum mistafkei meaning achinam." It's true. There's no question in the world a person could be menadev a Mincha Nisochin. And theoretically, the Mishnah could have said "Yovi not five, but yovi six." Stating that this person who said "Perashti ve'eini idea eez a man perashti," it's not like he knows nothing. Knows a little bit. He's a might of a miktzas. He has a little bit of zicharon in terms of what it is that he had taken upon himself. He just doesn't remember it 100%. Okay, what then are the parameters that he is aware of were included in his neder, which as we'll see will preclude the Mincha Nisochin from being a possibility. So, the Gemara prefaces it by saying "Siman yochid biglal avodah beluk mikimtza." And this by the way is a siman for five different ways of getting out of this kasha of why is the Mishnah mentioning the Mincha Nisochin. The side of all five of the tirutzim is going to be the same because there's a certain parameter that he knows for sure he made, which precludes the Mincha Nisochin. The five different tirutzim are what that parameter was. In other words, we're going to see five things now that are unique about the Mincha Nisochin and to the extent that he in his neder knows that he did not include that, so that's why the Mincha Nisochin would not be nogeia. Number one, ba biglal yochid. Ba biglal tzibur like mistafkei. In his mind, when he took made his neder, so his neder was that I was going to bring a Mincha that only the yochid brings, not a Mincha that uh the rabbon brings. Only the yochid brings the Mincha Soidas, Machvas, Marcheshes, and the two Ma'afai Tinurs. The tzibur brings the Mincha Nisochin. And he knows for sure "Perashti, I know I was mefarish a Mincha that only the yochid brings." Okay, so that knocks out the Mincha Nisochin. Another mahalacha, kikum mistafkei ba biglal atzmo, ba biglal zevach lo mistafkei. The person is telling us that I know for a fact that I was mekabel to bring a Mincha that's ba biglal atzmo. That's a standalone, not something that ordinarily is ancillary to some other zevach. The Mincha Nisochin by its very nature was something that came along with a regular zevach, and as a result, he knows for sure that's not what he was mekabel. A third possibility, kikum mistafkei tunah lavodah she'einah tunah lavodah lo mistafkei. He knows that he took upon himself to bring a Mincha that requires lavodah. Mincha Nisochin didn't have any lavodah, so he knows it can't be that. A fourth possibility, kikum mistafkei ba beluk, ba beshloisha lukin lo mistafkei. The regular Mincha Nisochin came with one luk. The Mincha Nisochin came with at the very least three lukin, right? Depending on what animal is being brought. If it's a sheep, then it's three, it's a revi'as ayin. If it's an ayil, then it's four, it's a shlishis ayin. And if it's ben boker, then it's a chatzi ayin. But the bottom line is, he knows for sure that in his nedava, he's only bringing a luk shemen, right? That's where he maxed out in terms of how much he's willing to bring. He knows for sure "I was never mekabel to bring all these lukin of shemen. No way in the world." And finally, kikum mistafkei tunah kemitza she'einah tunah kemitza lo mistafkei. This yochid wanted to bring a Mincha that has a kemitza. So, he knows for sure that it couldn't have been the Mincha Nisochin. The bottom line is, these are just five ways of wiggling out of this question. The question was, if somebody says "Perashti, ve'eini idea eez a man perashti, yovi chamesh ton." Isn't there a sixth possibility? Yeah. 100%. If there's no parameters in terms of what it is that he was mekabel and everything is on the table, then there would be six options. But there were some parameters. He remembers a little bit. He remembers either that it was a Korban that's only brought by yochid, or it was a Korban that was only ba biglal atzmo, or it was a Korban that required lavodah, or it was a Korban that came with one luk of shemen, or it was a Korban that was going to require kemitza. To the extent that he remembers any one of those five things, that would knock out the possibility of being a Mincha Nisochin. And that's why the Mishnah said "Yovi chamesh ton." The Mishnah did not say that you should bring six. Either way, this is the appetizer in today's daf. Now comes the entree. So, going back to the Mishnah, the very last case of the Mishnah. The Mishnah discussed another person who took upon himself to bring a Mincha Nidava, but he's a bit of a fun fused. "Perashti Mincha shel isronim." He says, "I was mefarish to bring a Mincha made up of isronim, but I have no idea kamah perashti. I can't remember how many isronim." So, the Mishnah said it's a machlokes tanam what this person's responsibility is. "Yovi shishim isron." Tana Kama, the Chachamim hold he brings a Mincha made up of 60 isronim. Rebbi Yirmiya, Rebbi says, "Yovi Menoachis shel isronis me'echad ad shishim." Not one Mincha made up of 60 isronim, but rather, you have to bring 60 Menoachis. Each one is going to have a different amount of isronis. What's the range going to be? From one to 60. So, you're going to have 60 Menoachis ranging from one to 60. So, one will have one, one will have two, one will have three. Very, very different responsibility and application. This was the machlokes Tana Kamma and Rebbe. Now, yesterday's daf we discussed the machlokes the Tana Kamma and Rebbe for a fleeting moment. The reason it was discussed was because we were learning the first part of the Mishnah and really on the first line the Mishnah had already mentioned if somebody says pirashti in yedei amati rashti yovi shishim isrin. And over there there's no mention of shitas Rebbe. And the Gemara brought a machlokes Chizkiya and Rebbe Yochanan whether or not we're supposed to assume that the machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim in the safe of the Mishnah really applies to the reisha of the Mishnah. Chizkiya said mantano delokei Rebbe and lo chinami this has to be delokei Rebbe because according to Rebbe he told you exactly what you're supposed to do. Rebbe Yochanan said no, that really Rebbe can shatim with the reisha of the Mishnah and the reisha of the Mishnah he never said the lashon mincha. So, he never said it has to be one mincha. Over there even Rebbe's going to be meideh that if you want to bring one mincha made up of 60 isrin, it's going to be okay. In the safea where he said mincha, so there there's a different peida and over there Rebbe has a shita you have to bring 60 minchos ranging from one until 60. When we mentioned the machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim in yesterday's daf, it was again bederech agav just trying to figure out for a second whether the reisha of the Mishnah could shatim with Rebbe or can't shatim with Rebbe. Now, we're going to mention the machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim again, but this time it's because we're learning the machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim and we're going to see that whatever we mentioned yesterday was a gross oversimplification of what's really going on. Again, it was enough to get us through what we had to get through yesterday. Today we have to roll our sleeves up literally and we have to harve and try to understand what exactly is the beer in the machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim. As a matter of fact, when we do the sikum be'ezras Hashem we'll see that there are going to be five different halachos that the Gemara is going to suggest each one is a matif trying to figure out what exactly Rebbe and the Chachamim are arguing. But first the Gemara does what it's been doing recently, a little bit of math. Pirashiti mincha shel esrim tanur upon a braisa that elaborated a little bit on this machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim. Pirashiti mincha, so the bach is very helpful here. Pirashiti mincha shel esrinem and vekovati achad. So, if somebody says I was mefarish and I'm going to bring a mincha of esrim, I also said I'm going to bring it in one keili. De'ini yedei amati rashti, but I don't know how many isrinem I was mekabel on myself. Yovi mincha shel shishim isrinem divrei Chachamim. The Chachamim says you bring one mincha made up of 60 isrin. Rebbe says yovi mincha shel esrinem yachad v'shishim. You bring 60 minchos ranging from one till 60. She'ein elef ushmona me'os ushlishim. And if you do the math, what you're going to end up with is 1,830 isrinem. That's how many you're going to have to bring in total. Pirashiti. What would be if the person says I was mefarish de'ini yedei'a. So, skip the words mati rashti, but ini yedei'a eizeh mehem pirashti. I don't remember which one of the minchos I was mefarish. Not just that, but ini yedei'a kama pirashti. I also don't remember how much I was mefarish. So, this is already some sort of eclipse. So, we have the two cases in the Mishnah. Number one, the person doesn't remember which mincha he took upon himself. He also doesn't remember how many isrinem. So, this is actually simple arithmetic. What should he do? Yovi chamesh minchos. He brings five minchos. Why? That was the first part of the daf. It's because if a person says pirashti ini yedei'a eizeh mehem pirashti yovi chameshdon. Thankfully he remembers that it was either yachid biglal lav oina belogmi kemtza because then he'd really be out of pocket. But the bottom line is at least he only has to bring five, he doesn't have to bring mincha shel shishim, doesn't have to bring six. Okay, so yovi chamesh minchos and each mincha has to be made up of shishim shishim [snorts] isrinem. And it's going to have each one's going to have to be made up of 60 because again he also doesn't know how many isrinem. So, each mincha has to be made up of 60. He has to bring five different types of minchos. What you end up with is five times 60. What's the math? She'ein sholish me'os. 300 divrei Chachamim. Rebbe am Rebbe says yovi chamesh minchos shel shishim isrinem yachad v'shishim. Rebbe agrees with the methodology. He says this person has both cases in the Mishnah. He doesn't know eizeh mehem pirashti yovi chameshdon. He also doesn't know kama isrinem and therefore he has to bring 60. The problem is he has to bring 60 60 minchos ranging from one to 60 times five. Now, we said that the 60 minchos ranging from one to 60 were how many? It was 1,830. So, really what he needs to do is 1,830 times five. The Gemara does the math for us. She'ein tisha alafin u me'ah v'chamishim. It's 9,150. That's what this person is going to have to bring. Incidentally, we're not going to go into this, but there's a very interesting Tosfos for all the math aficionados. It's the second Tosfos on the amud she'ein elef ushmona me'os ushlishim where sounds like Greek soup, but she'ein elef ushmona me'os ushlishim. If you take a look at the Tosfos, Tosfos goes through how you can figure out the math that the number of minchos when you're bringing 60 minchos ranging from one to 60 is going to be 1,830. So, Tosfos has a little bit of a cheat sheet how you could do it. There's a very, very interesting ha'ara'ah that I saw brought down from a ma'aseh uncha where the Arusam wrote a letter to somebody and he said he was going through Tosfos and Tosfos figured out this is the way you should do the math. I have a much better way to have figured it out. I mean today there's cheating ways to do this kabuvan, but the bottom line is that the fascinating Tosfos is regardless. Says the Gemara, bema kam is the gita. What is the machlokes between Rebbe and the Chachamim? So, again we did all the math, we gave the whole background. We even discussed whether the reisha of the Mishnah could be Rebbe or can't be Rebbe. Abatachlas, what is the hesber in the machlokes between Rebbe and the Chachamim? Let's just set this up a little bit better. This person was mekabel to bring a mincha. He doesn't remember how many isrinem he was mekabel. It could be anywhere from one to 60. One is the minimum shiur, 60 is the maximum shiur. K'lalei lavila uvila mekavetz avochshei inei lavila uvila mekavetz. But you can't do bila more than 60 isrinem, that's where you max out. So, we know it could be anywhere between one and 60. Say the Chachamim, perfect, bring 60. What's the issue? Bring 60 and m'mon achshav kol befinei. If you were mekabel 60, so you brought 60. Let's say you were mekabel less than 60 isrinem. I guess you'll make a tenai whatever you were mekabel should be good and whatever not, not. Right? I mean it sounds like that should be okay. Now, you can't just put with the world of tenaim that should be able to work itself out. Rebbe says no, you can't do that. Rebbe says to bring one mincha and just to be mastina is not going to be okay. As a result you're going to have to bring 60 minchos so that what? So that the mincha that's going to be the right mincha will be as a stand alone mincha and as relates to everything else I guess with regards to everything else still be a tenai. But to bring one mincha and to be mastina that's not okay. 60 minchos to be mastina is okay. One mincha to be mastina is not okay. And the question is you're working with tenaim anyways, so just bring one mincha and everything should be fine. So, the Gemara says what then is the machlokes? Rav Chisda said bemuttal achnas chulin la'azara. Rebbe holds asur achnas chulin la'azara. You're not allowed to bring chulin la'azara upon a tzavah. Rabbonan hold muttal achnas chulin la'azara. You're allowed to bring chulin la'azara. So, there's one very important Rashi that you have to know and pashut in order to understand just what these words even What exactly Rav Chisda was saying. dibur hamaschil bemuttal achnas chulin la'azara udekulei alma asur ariv chovev ben adam. Rav Chisda said that the reason Rebbe has an issue here and the reason Rebbe says you can't just bring one mincha made up of 60 isrinem is because there's an issur to take two different minchos and to be me'arev them together. You can't be me'arev a mincha that you're obligated to bring with a minchas nedava, a mincha that you right now are deciding you want to bring. The original mincha of a real life is a mincha chova and the mincha that you're on your own volition deciding to bring the second, that's a minchas nedava. And you're not allowed to go and be me'arev a mincha of chova and a mincha of nedava. Being that everybody holds you're not allowed to do that. So, to go ahead and to take a mincha, put 60 isrinem inside and to make a tenai and say whatever I was muchalif to bring should be betoras my original chiyuv. And whatever I'm not muchalif to bring a mincha right now, I want that to bring my new mincha. You can't do that because then you're going to have one keili that's made up of two minchos, a chova and a nedava and kulei alma asur ariv chovev ben adam. That's not an option. Okay, so then what did the Chachamim mean when they said go ahead and do just that? What the Chachamim meant was don't make a tenai and say that I want to rest what's not my original chova to be a nedava because you're not allowed to be me'arev that. Let it just be chulin. Let it just be chulin. What's the problem? And muttal achnas chulin la'azara. So, what exactly is the big deal? In other words, you're going to go, you're going to bring the mincha inside, you're going to do kemitzah with it and you're going to say that the kemitzah should be from all the shiyarayim, right? Cuz the shiyarayim doesn't go on the mizbeach, it's only the koymens that goes on the mizbeach. And you're going to eat it in the mokem of the azarah and you're going to only have zichri kohuna eat it and you're going to eat it l'yom v'layla. You're going to conform with all the rules and regulations of how you're supposed to eat kodshim kodashim. And you're going to say mon of shach, whatever is the shiyarayim of the original mincha, I'm eating b'taharas kedusha and whatever is not, I'm eating chulin b'taharah. So what I should and like this, I'm going to fulfill everything I need to do. What's the problem? I brought chulin into a k'li shareis into the azarah? Mutar l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. Rebbe, however, holds assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. So to go ahead and to do that, to bring in a b'taharas chulin l'azarah, okay. I, let me bring it and make it t'nai, not that the rest should be chulin but that the rest should be in a nedavah. Kuli alma assur l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. That's also not an option. So now I'm stuck. I can't have any chulin together with it cuz I can't even bring that into the azarah. That's mamash dead on arrival. And I can't put in a nedavah inside of it cuz I can't be me'arev. So there's no way to fulfill b'taharas min mon of shach in one k'li. You know what the option is? I have to bring 60 different kelim. Now what's the t'nai going to be with the 60 different kelim? That uh one, that's the real one is going to be the chiyuv and the other 59 is going to be the nedavah. It's a rebbe's nedavah. But at the end of the day, here I'm not violating chulin l'azarah cuz I'm bringing a b'taharas nedavah. I'm also not being me'arev chiyuvin nedavah because I'm keeping it in a separate k'li. That's what's going on over here. So Rav Chisda says, you want to know what the machlokes between Rebbe and the chachamim is? It's mutar l'hachnis chulin l'azarah or assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. Rebbe, the chachamim hold mutar l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. So there's an eitzah to put it in one k'li and be mastanei that whatever is not the chiyuv, so it's ein chulin. Rebbe holds assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. That's not something you can do. So mamash you have to put in 60 kelim. I, why can't you just be mastanei that it should be the that whatever is not the chiyuv is in the nedavah. It's because assur l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. And by the way, and by the way, Rav Chisda holds that even the chachamim hold that's a problem. The chachamim are not even telling you to do that. What the chachamim are telling you to do that is is to bring a b'taharas chulin. Rabba and Rav Huna says just the opposite. Kuli alma assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. Really everybody holds it's assur to be machnis chulin l'azarah. Rav Huna, you want to know what the machlokes is? It's mutar l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. You want to know what the machlokes is? Whether you're allowed to be me'arev chiyuvin nedavah or not. Rabbonan, Rav Huna and Rav Huna hold mutar l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. You're allowed to be me'arev chiyuvin nedavah. Rebbe says Rebbe holds assur l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. You're not allowed to be me'arev chiyuvin nedavah. Rabba said that I love the setup but I hold just the opposite. I hold that the way this works according to the chachamim is not that you're mastanei whatever is not the chiyuv should be chulin because mutar l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. Chachamim hold assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. So that's not going to be the option. What you're going to be mastanei is that whatever is not the chiyuv should be the nedavah. And it's because the chachamim hold mutar l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. And what does Rebbe hold? Rebbe holds assur l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. But in terms of whether or not you can bring chulin b'azarah, everybody holds you can't bring chulin b'azarah. The way this works according to the chachamim is not by being mastanei that whatever is not the chiyuv should be chulin but by being mastanei that whatever is not the chiyuv should really be the nedavah. In other words, according to Rav Chisda, the way this works according to the chachamim is that I put 60 into one k'li. Whatever is the chiyuv is the chiyuv. Whatever is not the chiyuv is chulin. According to Rabba, I put 60 into one k'li. Whatever is the chiyuv is the chiyuv. Whatever is not the chiyuv is going to be a nedavah. According to Rav Chisda, Rabba's eitzah doesn't work cuz the kuli alma assur l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. Do you slate the shitas chachamim is mutar l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. According to Rabba, the eitzah of Rav Chisda doesn't work cuz assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah b'kuli alma. The chachamim hold mutar l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. Just to say this a little bit better, according to Rav Chisda and Rabba, Rebbe has to be of the opinion assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah and assur l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. Because if any one of those things would be mutar, then you don't have to bring 60 menachos. So then there's an eitzah, either bring a b'taharas chulin or bring a b'taharas nedavah. So what Rebbe holds is easy. Rebbe holds chlorate, assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. That's why you're being mastanei that the rest should be chulin is ein ish kein eitzah. And assur l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. That's why being mastanei the rest should be nedavah. The chachamim hold it's mutar. And the chachamim could hold it's mutar either out chulin l'azarah and you'll be mastanei that the rest should be chulin or out mutar l'arev chiyuvin nedavah and you're going to be mastanei that the rest should be nedavah. And that is the machlokes between Rav Chisda and Rabba. Whether the shitas chachamim is mutar l'hachnis chulin l'azarah or whether the shitas chachamim is that it's mutar l'arev nedarim b'nedavah. Sakta g'mara. Am alei Abaye l'Rabba. Abaye turned to Rabba and he said, "Rabba, the way you understand the Rabba d'amri you hold mutar l'arev chiyuvin nedavah. That the way this works is you put 60 esronim into one k'li and you make a nedavah. You say that some of this I need to fulfill my original hareini lai. Whatever I don't, I want should be a nedavah. Which means I have no chulin here cuz assur l'hachnis chulin l'azarah. But what I have is two different menachos. I have a minchas chiyuv and I have a minchas nedavah. And you're going to go and you're going to do the avodah and like this you'll be able to fulfill all your obligations. Have been a shnei k'mitzot. L'chayra, shouldn't you have to do two k'mitzot? You shouldn't have to do a k'mitzah mitzad the minchas chiyuv, the original hareini lai, and you should have to do a k'mitzah mitzad this new nedavah that you just said I raised minchas nedavah. Now just to be clear, like Rav Chisda, this is not a kasha. Because like Rav Chisda, the way this is working according to the chachamim is you have a taruvis of mincha and chulin. You do k'mitzah on the mincha, you don't do k'mitzah on the chulin. But the way you, Rabba, understand that there's two menachos living side by side. L'chayra, two menachos for the two k'mitzot. So Abaye told Rabba, "Have been a shnei k'mitzot." So Rabba looked at Abaye and he said, "From all the kashas you ever asked me in your life, this is the easiest one to answer. The k'mitzot for the k'mitzot. What's the big deal? You'll do two k'mitzot, right? Why can't you do two k'mitzot?" So Abaye says, "Rabba, you know me better than that. Let me explain to you a little bit. Let me tell you where I was coming from. V'ha k'mitzah michayevan nedavah u'min nedavah chiyuv. How do you know when you do the k'mitzah for the chiyuv, you're getting all chiyuv, and when you do the k'mitzah for nedavah, you're getting all nedavah? Maybe there's a little bit of nedavah in the chiyuv, a little bit of chiyuv in nedavah. In the menachos vernacular, you know what that would mean? It would mean you have a a k'mitzah chaseira. Because when I do k'mitzah, I have to get the full shiyur koymens. And if I have a little bit of the other mincha, that means it's chaser in the shiyur of this mincha. So I don't have a proper k'mitzah. So Rabba told Abaye, "This is your kasha? I knew you better than that. But I'm not impressed with this kasha either. You're forgetting menachos. The told Rabba b'das kayin. You can make t'nayim in these things. D'alma you could say kol heicha d'mati yodei'a d'kayin has the chiyuv and the slice nedavah. You could always say that the first k'mitzah that the kayin does, I want should be chiyuv, and the second k'mitzah that the kayin does, I want to be the nedavah. And that works. By the way, look in the Rishonim, kuli alma works with the sugia b'reira but way beyond the scope of what we need. But [snorts] the bottom line is Rabba said, "No, this is this is machlokes d'Rabba and us. I know there's two k'mitzot over here. And I know it's a little tricky because aren't you running into a k'mitzah chaseira?" The answer is no. The told Rabba b'das kayin. There is a machlokes. But Abaye told Rabba, "No, you're still not following what I'm leading up to. This was what I was getting at. And that is that How are you going to be makdir these k'mitzot? That's my issue. I know you could do two k'mitzot, obviously. I also know there's a musag through b'reira where you can go ahead and you can make a t'nai and you could say I want the first k'mitzah to be for this mincha and the second k'mitzah to be for that mincha. Oh, but the problem is you have to be makdir the k'mitzot, right? And the question is how exactly are you going to be makdir the k'mitzot? Why likdin nedavah b'reisha? Should you go after you did the two k'mitzot, right? So let's say you did the k'mitzah on the chiyuv first, you did the k'mitzah on the nedavah second. You have these two k'mitzot. And now you have to be makdir. So you're going to go and you're going to be makdir the nedavah b'reisha. L'chayra, the chiyuv heicha makdir lo? How could you go ahead and after you were makdir the nedavah, be makdir the chiyuv? What's the problem? Dilma kula chiyuv. Maybe really this entire mincha was a minchas chiyuv. Remember, this person doesn't remember what's going on. There's a possibility that he took upon himself 60. On the t'nai that he took upon himself originally 60, that means there's no minchas nedavah here at all. Right? If there's no minchas nedavah, then what's going to happen is when you're going to go and you're going to be makdir that second k'mitzah, right? Before you makdir the original k'mitzah, the chaser l'shiyarayim. What's going to emerge then is that when you're makdir the original k'mitzah, you're going to be lacking a little bit from the mincha. V'ha mamash shiyarayim sh'chaser min k'mitz d'Rabba ein makdir k'mitz alav. That's a problem of a mincha chaseira, see meseches menachos, and that in and of itself is going to be an issue. Okay. This person right now is not sure what's going on over here. So just to play it safe, what he's saying is that in the event not all of this is my chiyuv, so then I want the rest of it to be a nedavah. But you have to remember there's always the possibility that all of it is a chiyuv, right? That's the piece that features prominently in this shlav of the g'mara. We didn't make such a big deal about it earlier because it was sort of obvious and it it didn't really play itself out. But here it plays itself out very stark. That it's not like he knows for sure there's a balance and he doesn't know how much the balance is. He actually has it side that there's no balance at all. And as a result there always is the possibility that maybe 100% of this mincha is really mincha chiyuv. Now, it's for that reason when he does the first komitzah, he can do two komitzahs, right? Because there might be two. So, which is fine. Do two komitzahs, right? For skekh d'chum. That was what the Rova told about it. The comments for the comments. Like, "Oh, I don't know why that's such a big deal." But the bottom line is right, you can do as many komitzahs as you want in theory. You can kap the mincha b'diya, but you can do komitzahs. But here's the point. The point is is that the first komitzah you're going to do is for sure going to be for the chiyuv. Why is it for sure going to be for the chiyuv? Cuz again, you have the side that it might be 100% chiyuv. That might be the only mincha in town. So, for sure that's the first thing you're going to do. But then the other komitzahs because there might be another mincha over here. So, you're going to end up with two komitzahs. If you're going to be makhtir first that second komitzah, the mincha d'nedava, then on the side that this mincha is 100% a mincha chiyuv, then when you go now to be makhtir this original komitzah, the mincha was already chiyuv. Where was it chiyuv? Because part of it is already oila d'rabbah chiyuv l'Hashem. So, if that's the case, you have a mincha chiyuv and shirayim chaseru bein komitzah l'haktara eim makhtir komitzah rishona. So, that's not going to work. Okay, so like the chiyuv b'reisha. Maybe you should go ahead and be makhtir the chiyuv b'reisha, right? So, do the komitzah for the chiyuv first. That's for sure you're going to have to cuz it might be all chiyuv. Then you're going to do a second komitzah v'skekh d'chum. Go ahead and do a second komitzah. You'll be makhtir the original komitzah on the side this is 100% a mincha chiyuv. It was never shirayim chaseru bein komitzah l'haktara. And then afterwards you'll be makhtir the mincha d'nedava. Does that work? Does that work? On the side that this is 100% a mincha chiyuv. We know this. Eichin makhtir lav v'd'eilu makulu chiyuv again, maybe the thing is 100% a chiyuv. V'chol sh'mi man al yish r'eiv v'al saktiro. We know you can't be makhtir shirayim. So, on the side it's 100% a mincha chiyuv. You're going to end up with shirayim. So, Abaya told Rova, "This is what I was leading up to. You're telling me that p'shat in the chachamim is that the way you bring the 60 shirayim is not with a t'nai that whatever is not the chiyuv should be chulin, but rather with a t'nai that whatever is not the chiyuv should be a nedava. Well, if that's what you're going to do, you're going to run into a problem with the komitzah cuz you have two minchas that are living side by side. And as a result, the chiyuv you're going to have to do two komitzahs and you're going to have a major issue. Not with doing the physical komitzahs, not with maybe I'm getting the wrong mincha in each individual komitzah that I'm doing, but you're going to run into an issue with the fact that how you going to go ahead and be makhtir? Cuz these two komitzahs I'm going to have to be makhtir. And how you going to be makhtir? You're going to say, "What do you mean? Big deal. I'll be makhtir this, patter this, and I'll patter this that." Where the big deal is is cuz you have to remember there's a possibility this is 100% a mincha chiyuv. And to the extent that this is 100% a mincha chiyuv, then m'man d'shakh, whichever one of the minchas I choose to be makhtir first, I'm going to run into a very basic tenet in the laws of minchas. If I decide to be makhtir the second komitzah first, meaning the komitzah that I did on the side that is a mincha d'nedava, well then by the time I'm makhtir the original komitzah on the side this was 100% a a mincha chiyuv. It's shirayim chaseru bein komitzah l'haktara. And if I decide to go ahead and to be makhtir the original komitzah first, so like this I'll avoid having that issue. Well, the problem is how can I do a second haktara? Once I do the original haktara, it's chala din shirayim and everything else. And shirayim, there's a halacha kol sh'mi man al yish r'eiv v'al saktiro. That's not an option. So, the Gemara said, "Am R'bi Yehuda b'R'bi Shimon b'Pazi R'bi Yehuda b'R'bi Shimon b'Pazi came to the defense of Rova." And he said, "I'll tell you what the eitzah is. The eitzah is the mass l'shum eitzem. The eitzah is that you're going to be massik eitz l'shum eitzem. Ukir R'bi Eliezer and it's going according to R'bi Eliezer. The tanna R'bi Eliezer R'bi Eliezer said, "We know this R'bi Eliezer from z'vachim and minchas. V'eich chiyuv ya'ata maila at at at maila l'shum eitzem." That it's truly allowed to be maila the shirayim on the mizbei'ach, but that's only if you're doing it because you want it to be a re'ach nicho'ach l'Hashem Baruch Hu. But to the extent that you're being maila it because you want to just add some fuel to the fire, on that instance that's something that's going to be okay. What you're going to do is you're going to be massik l'shum eitzem. What's the beer? So, we need Rashi for this. V'oilam what R'bi Yehuda b'R'bi Shimon b'Pazi said according to the chachamim the way Rova understands the chachamim is you're going to be makhtir the chiyuv b'reisha. If you be makhtir the chiyuv b'reisha, you're not going to have a problem of shirayim chaseru bein komitzah l'haktara. What's the problem? You'll have the other issue and that is kol sh'mi man al yish r'eiv v'al saktiro. The teretz is that's not going to be an issue. The reason it's not going to be an issue is cuz you're going to do it l'shum eitzem. And according to R'bi Eliezer, if you do a l'shum eitzem, that is already an eitzah. What emerges from this last shakhla d'Abaya between Abaya and Rova with some help from R'bi Yehuda b'R'bi Shimon b'Pazi is that Rova's mahalakh [laughter] in the chachamim, which is if somebody says p'rashti d'ein y'dei'a kama p'rashti, so you bring one mincha that's made up of 60 shirayim, and you mastir that if there's some not mincha here, then I want that to be a nedava. And you go and you're essentially makhtir these two minchas side by side, and that's how you fulfill what you're supposed to do. I.e. you're being me'arev these two minchas. Mutar l'arev chiyuv [snorts] b'nedava. That's the sheet of the chachamim. R'bi holds it doesn't work that way cuz R'bi holds assur l'arev chiyuv b'nedava. But what emerges is that the only way this works is if you hold like R'bi Eliezer. It only works if you hold that l're'ach nicho'ach ya'ata maila avla at maila l'shum eitzem. Because if you don't hold like R'bi Eliezer, you can't make this work. The reason you can't make this work is cuz you have two minchas, and if you have two minchas, you have to do two komitzahs, which means you have to do two haktaras, and there's no way to be makhtir these two komitzahs. Being that there's a possibility this is 100% a mincha chiyuv, m'man regardless of which komitzah you decide to be makhtir first, either you're going to have a problem of shirayim chaseru bein komitzah l'haktara, or you're going to have a problem of kol sh'mi man al yish r'eiv v'al saktiro. M'man d'shakh you're going to end up having an issue. The way out of it is what the Gemara said, and that is I'll be like R'bi Eliezer. But that means the whole sheet of the chachamim d'R'bi Rova is predicated is predicated on R'bi Eliezer. Zakh the Gemara, "If that's the case, am R'bi Akiva b'R'bi Rova d'R'bi Ashi." So, R'bi Akiva b'R'bi Rova told R'bi Ashi, "Maybe I have a new eitzah. How to understand the machlokes between R'bi and the chachamim." He said that R'bi Rova muchin. They didn't understand what was the machlokes. R'bi Chisda said mutar l'achnasas l'azar assur l'achnasas l'azar. Rova said mutar l'arev chiyuv b'nedava ein mutar l'arev chiyuv b'nedava. I think l'fiha now what comes out of this discussion of Rova, I think that there's a new eitzah. This is oilam I'll tell you that everybody holds assur l'achnasas l'azar. That was never the discussion like Rova held. And I'll tell you that everybody holds that it's mutar l'arev chiyuv b'nedava. You know what the machlokes is? The machlokes is what they hold like R'bi Eliezer. Rova obviously held like R'bi Eliezer or at was or at the very least was willing to say that the chachamim held like R'bi Eliezer. So, if the chachamim hold like R'bi Eliezer, so you're not going to have a problem of that m'man d'shakh, that catch-22 cuz you'll be makhtir the komitzah of chiyuv b'reisha. I.e. kol sh'mi man al yish r'eiv v'al saktiro. How can you be makhtir the second komitzah, the komitzah d'nedava on the side that it's not a komitzah d'nedava? The teretz is l're'ach nicho'ach ya'ata maila avla at maila l'shum eitzem. So, like this m'man d'shakh you're not going to end up having an issue. The reason R'bi held this doesn't work, R'bi reason R'bi holds he needs 60 shirayim is cuz R'bi holds there's no eitzah l'shum eitzem. You want to be me'arev chiyuv b'nedava? Be me'arev all day every day. The problem is here you don't know that it's a chiyuv b'nedava. And here there's a side it's 100% chiyuv. On the side it's 100% chiyuv you can't do two haktaras. If you can't do two haktaras, that's what the problem is. What was the eitzah of R'bi Eliezer? He doesn't hold like R'bi Eliezer. Let's see it inside. That's the Gemara am R'bi Akiva b'R'bi Rova d'R'bi Ashi. They don't hold like R'bi Eliezer. Based on this whole cheshbon, maybe you can say that everybody holds mutar l'arev chiyuv b'nedava. V'hacha b'R'bi Eliezer kam nifligei. Maybe the machlokes R'bi Eliezer d'R'bi Yonatan is with R'bi Eliezer. The Rabbanan hold like R'bi Eliezer like the Gemara said. R'bi lastly R'bi Eliezer R'bi doesn't hold like R'bi Eliezer on m'leiser. Rashi told R'bi Akiva d'R'bi Rova sh'makh d'chav. Aval eisu d'daita R'bi mutar l'arev chiyuv b'nedava. If you hold that R'bi b'eitzem holds mutar l'arev chiyuv b'nedava with R'bi Eliezer lastly, and his issue is just this technical issue cuz he doesn't hold like R'bi Eliezer, then there's an option. Efsha d'maisi sheet d'chachamim. And this is going to bring us back to another sugia earlier minchas. What this person can do is he can bring 60 b'chad mana. B'chad b'chad mana and bring another mincha. And this mincha is going to be 100% a mincha d'nedava. It's going to be made up of one isaron, and it's going to be in a separate keli. Umaglu v'komitz. And what he's going to do is he's going to have the two minchas touch each other. We had a sugia earlier that if you have two minchas that touch each other, shaila what does it mean touch? The kelim touch? The actual mincha touches? But if you have two minchas that touch each other, that in and of itself could render it, it can make it one mincha. So, what this person can then do is the komitzah, do a komitzah. A komitzah from the chad mana. Be makhtir the komitzah from the chad mana. Like this you're not going to have an issue. Rashi told R'bi Akiva b'R'bi Rova. He said, "If the whole issue that R'bi had was that there's no way to be makhtir the two komitzahs, there's a way out without having to break the bank and bring 60 minchas. The way out is is you can take your one keli, put 60 grain of inside and make it tonight. If I'm obligated to bring 60 of it's all and if not whatever it isn't it's supposed to be with a lot of it's all so that in of itself is not going to be an issue. There's an issue. The issue is I'm not going to be able to be the two right? You have to worry about that. You can bring another this is going to be a regular mean of it this second and that's going to be one to make it so big it's me one and you're going to take that with the big monster of 60 grain of and you can have them touch each other. Once they touch each other there's some energy that transmits between the two and now we can view it and how long it's actually being one being one what you're going to do is you're going to go to the big and you're going to do a so you're going to put into a like you're supposed to do. And then you're going to go to the and you're going to do another but here's the so you're not doing the from the money that has the 60 grain of inside of it. I'm doing the so from the other money that has only one so but being that it's touching it's going to work for any of the that's in the big cali if there even is any over there. Then I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to be the two respectively. I'm going to be the so from the big cali that had the 60 grain of inside of it. And that's going to be all the rest of the of the like this I'll be my I'll fulfill my obligation. I'm then going to take the so from the money and I'm going to be that as well and that is going to be the of that little cali any other of the that there may or may not be in the larger cali. Like this everything is going to be fine. What's the issue? The issue is I'm being over the love of on the side that the so money is one big money so that would be true if I took the from within that and I was but that's not what I did. I took the from the other cali and that's what I was so and as a result you're not going to have any issues. But for that you wouldn't need 60 you wouldn't need 60 you know what you would need you would need two you don't need one made up of 60 one made up of one you would need 61 which is a lot less than 1,830 right? So the bottom line is good so the math works 100% but there's a way around that and being that didn't say that. didn't say bring a 60 anyone. He said bring 60 ranging from one to 60 his issue was never what then was his issue he must have held either us he must have held so and he must have held so so the so that's why so said it up the way that he said it up. Look at the so so said on the so in terms of how you can explain the so Maybe everybody holds that it's so it could be everybody holds of so So if everybody holds so and everybody holds of so so what's going on over here? so the so the so the so Want to know what the so it's a different so it's a so What's this and again this is bringing us down memory lane here in the so I feel so somebody has made up of 60 so how much do you have to have? 60 so said I feel the so so that if you have a that's made up of 60 so so you're supposed to bring only one so the so so the so >> [snorts] >> that anytime a person brings a so for every so of so that you bring you have to bring one so so holds that no so holds that one so has one so and it doesn't matter if the is made up of one so if it's made up of 30 if it's made up of 60 one so always has one so you learned it from a so now let's do the math a little bit outside. In our case we are the person is going to bring one made up 60 grain of inside but he's going to make it tonight whatever is not so I want to be so on the side that there is over here how many is he bringing? He's bringing two right? On the side it's 100% so how many so is he bringing? He's bringing on the that it's he's bringing one so now how much does this person have to bring? So if you hold like the so that for every so of so you bring one so then you're going to bring to how many do you have? I've been that you have 60 grain of inside over here. the money whether it's money two so the number 60 is a constant so you know how much you're supposed to bring. so however holds you bring one per so if that's the case you're not really sure how much you're supposed to bring. On the side this is so so then you're going to bring one. On the side that there's mixture of and so well then you have to bring two. So there's another technical issue that you trip up on a little bit the so if you try to be so what am I supposed to do with the so again it's a little counter intuitive. According to the so who hold you have to bring so much so it's actually not an issue. The reason it's not an issue is because you're always bringing per so so how many do I have? That's how much I have. Is it one or is it two? It doesn't matter as it relates to the so but according to it does matter because you bring the so based on how many do you have? So if it's one it's one so if it's two it's two. So let's see it inside so so the so of our so hold like the so of the previous so the so the so so so of each so one so if that's the case there's no issue how much so you're supposed to bring so so so that each so gets one so based on a so the so so if that's the case I don't know the so and as a result that's why there's going to be an issue. So so in his version 2.0 said that it could be everybody holds so that's for sure not what's going on over here. Everybody holds Everybody holds so so that's not going to be an issue though. And based on that for sure could have held like the so the only reason couldn't hold like the so because holds like so and so so you don't know how much you're supposed to bring. If it's it's one so if it's a combination of so it's two so that's why it's an issue. the so hold like the so who say that you bring the so per the so so I know how many so I have which obviously I know well then there's no ambiguity there's no issue in terms how much so I'm supposed to bring. It's only an so the so don't hold so so does and as a result that's why there's going to be an issue. so who always gets the final word in the so says I'll tell you what the so the so so so I think what's going on over here is if somebody takes upon to bring a small so and instead to bring a big so is that okay? Or is that not okay? In other words said you don't have to come out to so you don't have to make this so fancy. You don't have to say so so you don't have to go there. You don't have to get involved in so you don't have to do two so you don't have to come out so make sure it's not a so so you don't have to be so a little bit of the so so so so and say that you're doing a so you don't have to do any of the above. There's no issue over here. You don't have to worry about how many so you should have to bring. You don't have to do any of that. You know why? It's not so complicated. You know that you brought a so anywhere from one to 60. You don't know how much it is. You know you do just 60 I maybe you are 60 okay I can't What is an onion that if I that I want to bring a little more than I obligated myself to bring that's not something I'm allowed to do. the so you're allowed to do that. the so so so that if somebody says I'm a small so and instead he decides to bring a big so which means all 60 grain of inside are going to be the original so it's not it's not so it's one so there's no issues over here. And as a result there's not going to be a problem. What does so so so that's something you can do. so if you say 12 so I can't bring 60. Oh I can't bring 60 get myself into trouble. I get myself into trouble that's where the problems come. But the bottom line is you want to know the so the so the so where you made no so you didn't say anything. According to the so it's so according to it's a problem. Now by the way look at so says the reason according to so this is a problem is because you didn't make any so What would be if you make so okay so then learn the previous Sugya. I don't know. What is Rebbe hold? Does Rebbe hold Mutal school Azara? Does Rebbe hold Mutal Arab? Does Rebbe hold like Rebbe Eliezer? Does Rebbe hold like Rebbe Shimon bar Yochai and the with regards to the Sugya of like Shimon? Rebbe Ashi saying Lo Azera Anu Donin. The Machlokes is talking about when nobody made any Tenayim cuz according to Rabbonim you don't have to make a Tenai. According to Rabbonim Kotevei BeGadol and it always going to be okay. And being that you didn't make a Tenai according to Rebbe Kotevei BeGadol doesn't work. It's not going to be fine. What would be if you made a Tenai? I don't know. We know there's a lot of possibilities. But the bottom line is the Machlokes over here is Kishal and the Shaila is Kotevei BeGadol Yotzei or Lo Yotzei. Now, it happens to be pretty Gishmak if this is the Machlokes. You know why? Because there's a Mishna coming up tomorrow's daf where the Mishna is going to bring a Machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim where they literally argued this point. They mamish had this Machlokes. They mamish word for word milah b'milah had this very very Machlokes. And [snorts] if that's the case, it's so Gishmak cuz it's Rebbe and the Chachamim Leshitasayo. But when you have two Mishnayos back to back and you have the same Machlokes, the Gemara's approach usually is not with an ayin yafeh. It's not oh wow, it's so Gishmak. Usually it's what the heck is going on over here, right? Why would they have to argue the same exact Machlokes in today's daf and yesterday's daf? They think the Gemara about I hear it's very Gishmak that this would be the Machlokes cuz that could even be Rebbe and the Chachamim Leshitasayo. Right? Certainly in a Machlokes like this where we mamish don't know what the Machlokes is. It's certainly Gishmak to say oh I have a precedent. I know they argued this so this is probably what's going on over here. But even here the Gemara says the chiyura the opposite. Being that they argued this, why would they have to argue it here again? So what's that Tam to the Mishna Kotevei BeGadol Yotzei? In the event that somebody took upon himself to bring a small animal and instead he brought a bigger animal, it's okay. Rebbe says Lo Yotzei. He's not going to be Yotzei. So you see they argued this but they argued it already. Why do they have to argue it again? So the Gemara says Lo Yotzei means it's the same Machlokes and they had argued twice. It might be chiyura. We said we only had the Machlokes in our Mishna. I would have said b'chiyura k'amar Rabbonan. Maybe over here the Rabbonan say Kotevei BeGadol was okay. Mishum the individual cuz at the end of the day as it relates to the that goes to the Gevaya. The that goes on the Mizbeach it's the same Kaimetz. Whether the Mincha is made up of one and a 60th how much goes on the Mizbeach? A Kaimetz. And being that that's the same, so could be that's why being that Lapei Gevaya, you didn't change anything. That's why it's fine. Aval Hashem, when it comes to an animal, the fishy Murin, a bigger animal has more that a small animal. It's more Zaftig. So you're giving the more. So if that's the case, so Lo maybe you can't change. It's had we only had the Mishna later I would have said coming Rebbe. Maybe that's where Rebbe had the issue. Right? Rebbe had the issue over there. Why? Because over there it's different animal. You're giving more Gevaya. Kotevei BeGadol is going to be a problem. Aval but over here where it's the same amount it's the same Kaimetz. You would think maybe the Rabbonan. It's for that reason we had to have both Machlokes in this Siman by the way is Shiyach to the Mishna. It's actually Shiyach for the next Sugya. So that's a really really related to tomorrow's daf. But the bottom line is said Rebbe Ashi, I think the Machlokes over here is no Tenayim. According to the Chachamim the reason you could bring one Mincha of 60, I maybe you only 12. Who cares? You said 12 and now I added another 48. Rebbe holds you can't do that. Being that you didn't make a Tenai, that's not an option. Now if you would make a Tenai, then there's different possibilities. Either way that according to Rebbe Ashi was the Machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim. So as it relates to the recap, you have to do a recap. So again, the Mishna had said if a person would say Mincha of 60 that any idea I said, I know I took upon myself a 60 I just don't know how many. Could be anywhere from one to 60. You have 60. The Chachamim say bring one Mincha made up of 60. Rebbe said you have No, you have to bring 60 Minchas and each Mincha is going to have a different amount ranging from one to 60 in total the end of bringing 1,830. What's the beer in the Machlokes? Why according to Chachamim could you bring one Mincha made up of 60 and according to Rebbe it has to be 60 Minchas. What emerges is there were five. One of them was but if you want to the daf more thoroughly, five different were entertained in terms of what might be. The first was Rebbe said the Machlokes is whether or not or also when the Chachamim said that just bring one Mincha made up of 60, they know that not all 60 is really but who cares? You should go put 60 into the bring it into the you'll do a this for sure some over here. You'll make sure that you're that the is going to be from the that's a Mincha. You put that on the Mizbeach and you'll eat the as if it's 100% kosher and all that. That's not an issue. Rebbe holds and as a result that's not an issue. I okay, so you can't bring why can you at least say that whatever is not the original should be so that now I'll have no but I'll have all Mincha albeit two different Minchas. The answer is cuz even the Chachamim don't hold that can work. Cuz Rebbe holds the everybody holds also Rebbe The second was Rebbe. Rebbe said that everybody holds and when the Chachamim said just bring one Mincha that's made up of 60 never what they had in mind because that's dead on arrival. Literally. You can't go and bring into the What did the Chachamim mean when they said bring one Mincha made up of 60? What they meant was you should go and you should say that in the event that there's a little bit here that's not from my original cuz I was less than 60. I want that whatever it is to be I'm not bringing I'm bringing two different Minchas into the Azara. The fact that they're in the same that doesn't bother me and as a result everything is going to be okay. Rebbe holds also and as a result that won't be an option either. Now Rebbe went to town and Rebbe told Rebbe come on you're going to have two Minchas in the same you're going to have to do two He said I know you're going to do two Yeah, but how do you know when you do the first it's going to be and the second it's going to be You're you're going to be No. You're going to have a way to make Yeah, but how are you going to go how are you going to to them? You're going to have to do the first cuz it might be then when it comes to being the two you're going to have cuz if you're going to be the of first well then on the side it was you just gave away part of your Mincha and you can't go ahead and do the second and if you're going to go and do the original first that's going to be much better. Well again on the side that it's it's amazing you did the but the problem is now everything else is and how you going to be the second so you it's not really going to work out and the Gemara said the The was that you're going to be the original first. You won't have a problem I how could you be the second isn't that a problem of It's only a problem if you would just be or you do You're going to do and being it's for that reason it's going to be fine. In other words Rebbe said that in the Rabbonan is Arab. Additionally they also hold like Rebbe They didn't know like Rebbe so then this could not work. The third was Rebbe. Rebbe told Rebbe Ashi that being that really the only way it can work to the extent you so I I think I have a new Rebbe and a new beer in the Machlokes Rebbe and the Chachamim. It could be everybody holds and everybody holds and the Machlokes is whether or not we hold like Rebbe We don't hold like Rebbe. The Rabbonan [snorts] hold like Rebbe so there's no issues with being the two whereas Rebbe doesn't hold like Rebbe and being that Rebbe doesn't hold like Rebbe, so therefore you're going to have an issue with being As a result, you can't just bring 60. Rebbe Ashi told Rebbe I like what you're saying. You're saying but if that was the case, Rebbe would not require 60 Minchas would require two Minchas. One made up of 60 one made up of one. And being that he required 60 that was not his issue. His issue must have been you can't even be and that's where Rebbe was coming from. The fourth that the Gemara suggested which was also Rebbe and that is that it could be everybody holds that's not the issue. Everybody holds Everybody holds like Rebbe. So based on all that really just bring one Mincha made up of 60 that would be okay. The issue is something else. The issue is that Rebbe holds like Rebbe that when it comes to determining how much oil you put in your Mincha, it's based on how many Minchas you have. And being that you're not sure how many Minchas you have, you don't know if you have one if you have two. Is it or is it you're not going to know how much shamen You can't bring a mincha when you don't know how much shamen you're supposed to bring. And it's for that reason you have no choice but to bring 60. And for each one you bring a like shamen, you'll know what you got. What is the rabbonim hold? Rabbonim hold like the rabbonim. The rabbonim hold like the rabbonim hold like the rabbonim who hold that you bring your like shamen kaf fi how many esronis you have. If that's the case, what one of shichy bringing 60? Is it 60 for one mincha or 60 for two minchas? Doesn't matter as it relates to the shamen. And as a result, that is what the machlokes is wasn't. And finally, Rav Ashi Rav Ashi said it could be the machlokes is whether the person never made it tonight. If he made it tonight, but it could be the case he's talking about where he is just going to go now and he's going to instead of bringing whatever the amount is. He doesn't know what the amount is. He's just going to go ahead and he's going to bring 60. And that's essentially what the rabbonim are saying. What the rabbonim are saying is bring 60. Why not? You 60 is a a share that you can bring. Right, that's the max share. You don't know if it's 60 or less. Just bring 60. Let's say it was 60. A sh'chak b'tovlah. Let's say it was less than 60. Katan b'heivei godol There's no problem. Rebbe Yehuda can't just bring 60 cuz Rebbe and it's actually Rebbe Shimon but it's but Rebbe Shimon is that katan b'heivei godol is actually not going to be okay. And that's why it's going to be a problem. The reason Rebbe says it's an issue is cuz you're not being masno. I mean they're not being masno. It's a katan b'heivei godol. That's a problem. Now, what would be if you were masno? Okay, then you could have some fun with that. But the bottom line is Rav Ashi says you want to know the nekudas of the machlokes over here. You want to learn up the Mishnah Brisk. It's talking about hisno. And being that it was like hisno, according to the katan b'heivei godol is going to be okay. According to Rebbe, katan b'heivei godol is not going to be okay. In other words, what are the five possibilities? Either the machlokes is whether it's whether the machlokes is whether or not it's okay. Or the machlokes is whether we hold like Rebbe Eliezer that you could be masno or we don't hold like Rebbe Eliezer. Or the machlokes is Rebbe Eliezer how many shamen you have per or the machlokes is katan b'heivei godol is that okay or is that not okay? Exhale. So just to end today's daf with one short ha'ora'ah that I saw in the sefer which is one of the many many seforim that were written by Rav Yaakov Chaim Sofer. Shlita. And that is he brings in parshas Shlach. So Torah Yaakov is a sefer on Torah Nevi'im u'Kesuvim. This is in parshas Shlach. If you want to look it up, it's in siman kuf lamed alef. It's page taf chaf bet. The pasuk says in Shir HaShirim, this is perek alef pasuk eshkol hakkofer dodei li b'charmei [clears throat] Ein Gedi. First perek of Shir HaShirim. If you take a look at the Targum on this pasuk, >> [snorts] >> it's very very long. Targum takes us down memory lane a little bit. Talks about how Moshe Rabbeinu went up to Har Sinai, he was mekabel the Torah, the luchos, the chet ha'egel, the luchos shni'os. I'm picking up in middle. B'hei [snorts] zimna Moshe v'Aharon u'Moshe Rabbeinu. At that time Moshe Rabbeinu went and he built the Mishkan. The He built all the keilim of the Mishkan. And the Aron as well. Sounds like the Aron is not one of the keilim. The Aron u'Moshe Rabbeinu Aharon. And he took the luchos shni'os and he put them into the Aron together with the shivrei luchos we learned in the Torah recently. And then he appointed the sons of Aharon as kohanim to bring korbanos on the mizbei'ach to be the korbanos on the mizbei'ach. And to bring wine as wine on the korbanos. And to bring wine as wine on the korbanos. Wine for the korbanos? Where did they have wine? They were in the midbar. There were no vineyards there. Where did they have wine? Hello, in the midbar. And I don't think they had dates, figs. They didn't have pomegranates. They didn't have any of these green things. So where did they come to this if they're in the midbar? However, says the Targum, they used to go to the vineyards, the Kerem of Ein Gedi. They used to go to the vineyards, the Kerem of Ein Gedi. And they would take from there They would take from there a They would take an eshkol of They would and they would go and harvest it. They would make wine from it. And they would pour on the mizbei'ach. How much? A quarter of a hin for one sheep. So says the Targum, that's what the pasuk means when it says it's referring to the it's referring to the came from Ein Gedi. When the Yidden in the midbar that they went ahead from there, they made their wine to use as wine for the korbanos. For the korbanos that they brought. Now, this Targum is obviously going according to the madom that holds in the midbar. But the Targum says something fascinating. That you want to know where the wine came from. Where did they get the wine? The Where did they get the wine? You know where it came from? It came from You know where it came from? It came from There was an We took this We gave it We gave it to the Where did it come from? The Ein Gedi. That's where the wine for [snorts] the wine came. And at first glance, this Targum says Rav Yaakov Chaim Sofer is a little bit He said, why is it that the wine came from Ein Gedi? And what's this pasuk in Shir HaShirim that's bringing out the that we brought the wine and not only did we bring the wine but we brought the wine from Ein Gedi. It's a little bit He said a And that is we spoke recently about the surprising chiddush that the parsha of the wine is not mentioned anywhere in Torah There's a reference to the wine in Torah but the parsha of the wine is actually in sefer It's in parshas Shlach. In fact, it's right after the whole episode of the And the rabbonim already to try to understand that why is it that the Torah placed the parsha of the wine after the What's What's the between the and the parsha of the And the parsha of the wine. And recently we mentioned two from the We mentioned that the says that had the not sinned with the they wouldn't need the wine. But because they fell through the Now, in order for them to get by bringing a It's not enough that you bring a Now already there's an Indian you have to bring the wine as well. We the And the parshas who [laughter] says that had the not sinned with the then it would have been not ask over Again, [laughter] we right? So many that dictate the simplicity of the way that really the was supposed to be. But because they didn't sin, because of the Now, to get to get they needed to pick up their game a little bit. History repeated itself. And after [laughter] the the again needed a little bit more. And that little more was the wine. We mentioned that the This is the in the They say that the is because after the and the were told that that whole wasn't going to go into but their children are going to go into It was going to be after 40 years. Pasuk says that they were in a state of And [snorts] they thought to themselves, who knows if it's going to ever work out. I mean I know the is telling us now. How do I know that our children are not going to sin the same way we sin and maybe they're not going to go in. So the went and told the two Two that are The of the wine and the follows immediately afterwards which was the of To give the You have nothing to worry about. You see you're going to go in. And we spoke out from the who said over from the who said over in the name of his the of who said that it wasn't a that decided to pick the of the wine but it's wine and the pasuk says And the pasuk says And the pasuk says And the pasuk says And the And the they were mourning. And they were depressed about what's going to be. So the poured them a glass of wine. He gave them wine. That was the source of That was the source of But that we already spoke about. But in the it's that it's that Rav Yaakov Chaim Sofer says that if you take a look at the of the In parshas Shlach, the says the There's a between the parsha of the wine and the parsha of the >> [snorts] >> It's because the sinned with the It's for that reason they were warned specifically with regards to the wine. What's meant the What it means is the pasuk says in parshas Shlach when the came to It [snorts] says They came to a place called And they went and they went and they cut off this cluster of grapes with the branches. And it required two It was even more than two. A whole bunch of people, literally a whole army of men to go ahead and and carry it. And what they did was they brought it back with them to the midbar. What was the point? They wanted to show the Yidden that "K'sheim she'hi meshunah, kach amo meshunah." They were doing it to speak negatively and to try to scare the Yidden. You don't want to go in Eretz Canaan. You know what's going on over there? Now, this was very momentous. You know why it was momentous? Look at the next pasuk. "Lamakah hu korah Nachal Eshkol." That place the pasuk refers to as Nachal Eshkol. In real time it wasn't even Nachal Eshkol yet. It first became Nachal Eshkol because of this story. "Al pi ha'aretz Eshkol asher karshu shom bnei Yisrael." This was a huge, huge, huge deal. But says the Recanati that when the Yidden were in the midbar sent the meraglim and the meraglim went in Eretz Yisrael, they sinned bi chudo with regards to lashon hara, with regards to an Eshkol. "V'yavo'u al Nachal Eshkol vayichzu misham zmorah Eshkol anavim echad Yisrael." And you see it was so significant because "Lamakah korah Nachal Eshkol it is the Eshkol asher karshu shom bnei Yisrael." It's for that reason says Dr. Recanati, that's why there's a smichus between the parshah and the meraglim and the parshah of the nosachim. But it's still it's a dayenu midrashani. What's pashut p'shat? So, Rav Chaim Sefer brings from Rav Chaim Palagi in his sefer Nefesh Kol Chai, this is in Ma'areches Nun Osiyos Daled. He says the einik and what the Recanati was trying to say was is that we know the meraglim were over a lot of aveiros, a lot of bad things during that episode. But rosh perushim of all the lessons we take from the story of the meraglim is what? Right, there was kefirah, there was a story of "Vayima'asu b'Eretz Chemdah." Right, all things that we've spoken about b'ezras Hashem over the years. But Chazal took from the whole story of the meraglim more than anything else the cheimer of lashon hara. In fact, Chazal say "Mad doch d'meraglim spoke lashon hara it's in v'avanim kal v'chomer if a person speaks lashon hara b'vasar v'dam." That's why parshas Shlach is always the parshah of lashon hara because the meraglim their chet uh was It was a chet of lashon hara. What was the lashon hara? It was a lashon hara on Eretz Yisrael. That's what the lashon hara was. They spoke negatively about Eretz Yisrael. So, they now they now said Rav Chaim Palagi had to be mesaken the fact that they looked at Eretz Yisrael and they said "K'sheim she'hi meshunah, kach amo meshunah." You don't have anything to do with this country. You don't have anything to do with this land. So, you know what the tikkun was? The tikkun was you're going to go ahead and you're going to take from that land and you're going to bring it to the Eibershter as a hakravah and that's going to be your way of coming close to Hakadosh Baruchu and that's going to be your idiyus that you're giving the Eibershter. That's the reishis that you're giving to Hakadosh Baruchu because by doing that you'll be mesaken and you're going to realize that this land is an Eretz Chemdah. That what you were moyis in and what you thought fakhair, what you spoke lashon hara about, to the contrary this is mamash the best of the best. And that's why they were told to go ahead and take a little bit But which cheilek of the land were they told told to take? Says the Recanati, says Dr. Chaim Palagi, this is what he means to say that being that the chet was b'ikkar with the Nachal Eshkol, "Vayichzu misham zmorah Eshkol anavim echad." Take that Eshkol, take that zmorah and I want you to go ahead and I want you to bring it to Hakadosh Baruchu. The inyan, the smichus between the parshah of the meraglim and the parshah of the nosachim, says Dr. Recanati, with this beer amuk from Rav Chaim Palagi was is that the chet of the meraglim was a chet of lashon hara, a chet of lashon hara on Eretz Yisrael. It was "Vayima'asu b'Eretz Chemdah." And they were told now you want to go ahead and you want to do teshuvah. You want to do a teshuvah shalom mishkal. Like Rabbeinu Yonah says that midas teshuvah is l'fi midas mishuvah. Right, the teshuvah is always mayein the chet that the person did. So, [laughter] the chet was uh uh looking at Eretz Yisrael at this in this derogatory way. What you need to now do is you need to take from Eretz Yisrael and give it its due, give it put it on its pedestal. I'm taking from Eretz Yisrael daika and I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to bring it to Hakadosh Baruchu. And being that the chet bifrat was in the Eshkol anavim echad, so that's why they were told to take from the Eshkol anavim echad. Says Rav Chaim Sefer L'fianu, it's so it's so moving, it's so beautiful. Why the Yidden even l'manda amar karvin Yisrael midbar over in the chosam had to come from the Karem En Gedi. Why did it have to come from the Karem En Gedi? Why couldn't they bring yayin from somewhere else? Now, the Targum says "Sakashu" was their wine. But the truth is it's not such a stark kasha. And the reason is is because we know there were different tagorim kidua. L'chora they could have been an eitzah. But the teretz is because the whole cheftz of the nosachim was a tikkun for the chet of the meraglim. It was a tikkun for "Vayima'asu b'Eretz Chemdah." It was a tikkun for the lashon hara that the meraglim spoke on Eretz Yisrael. And if that's the case, the way to be mesaken is by taking from Eretz Yisrael and becoming close to Hakadosh Baruchu, recognizing fakhair this is the shpitz, this is the land that you want to have a shiyachus to. Therefore, even the nosachim that were karvin midbar had to come daika from the Karem En Gedi. He brings one final ma'amar chacham. And this is a Medrash Rabbah. The Medrash is in Shir Hashirim. It's Daled Chaf Vav. The Medrash over there asks the same exact question. "Me'ein hayu Yisrael menaschin kol memshalah she'asav midbar?" Where did the Yidden have nosachim when they were in the midbar for those 40 years? Rav Yochanan Rav Yochanan said "Min ha'be'er." They got it from the be'er. "U'minei men hu hayu rovim kol ha'osam?" In fact, most of the gishmaka things that the Yidden had in the midbar came from the be'er. Now, we always know the be'er had water. Says Rav Yochanan much more than water. "Tamrei Rav Yochanan Rav [snorts] wines, right? To wine that comes from Eretz Yisrael. Napa Valley I mean Napa Valley I mean I mean this is the whole inyan, the tikkun of the chet of the meraglim was the yayin of Eretz Yisrael. We are going to stop here.