Meaningful Interviews: Zalman Schachter

so i want to say it philip that in some of the manuals is written arena mikasha naranjali khairan that needs to come through at this time should come through and that will be good caleb for that say oh man oh no okay i'd like to begin with a little family background of yourself i understand that you come from sedum i know that when you came to america you lived in borough park if you could talk a little bit about that i appreciate it all right yeshua dove was the chief charger in galicia he was a belzerjoset and given joshua the roswell dollar is given oh see yeah uh the people who wanted him very much to be his hosted and they they would spend long friday night schmidt's see this that's what they called it um and my barbie elaire shawn was also from belzer hasidim and her father prime joseph was about shakhis and bell's so he made a number of beautiful melodies for youth and they still know and i'm in bells and when i came to russia line to look up at the big shul first they looked at me i was dressed in business clothes but what are you doing over here and then i started to talk to them in their kind of jazz and all of a sudden they were very happy to show me around when i started to sing something and then they said oh this this one we use for for a hack office and this and that and so i was in yeah so that's that side of the family the other side of the family was in volkswagen that's the other side meaning you're my mother your mother's side was in jockville and jacques is a town where the second printing of the tanya took place yes and i have a copy of that here of the actual tanya yeah and that has the old iguara which i have scanned and and can give you a a a file with that okay so now we continue these were also the hasidim and on the mizeida side was the son of yagit who was a great london and wrote the mahdi shah shekel and even and dayanim are looking to get copies of that book so he was he was great so that's my family my father didn't want to be that kind of a hot person hossett but he was in ratsford during the uh first world war when the belzova was there yeshua david and so on so many family stories about that he lived in vienna we lived in vienna and i grew up there until 1938 and when we had to make our way but in vienna was where the level would come to purchase store and that's how i got hold of a german translation of that letter that i was mentioning to you before where the rebel was writing for people in which way could german jewish intellectuals gain something out of khabad and he wrote that amazing letter so then uh it's 1938. yeah i came to belgium and there i met some people that would be a very long and beautiful story who they were there uh mashpiyya was a talmud of silson was was yeah he was the right so and they their line was not pure labyrinth it was more accomplished yep and so on but these young people impressed me greatly because i too had questions about priyas amazing just the way people were talking about ghanaian gehenna was made me feel that this is nonsense how old were you at the time i was about 15 at that time now you learned to the hater until then you learned to knock them no no before that i went to gymnasium yeah in the morning and to yeshiva in the afternoon so i had both sides the gymnasium was uh labor zionist and i would go shabbos afternoon early to breed velou which is sort of dance the horror there in the foreshadow so i had this big thing and you were you were a good talent when you in learning you enjoyed learning then when you were in in in the in it always was what it was the what so for instance when someone put the messily shoulder in my hand and he said yes yes you know how wonderful that is and that there is a pathway to go from being careful to being zealous about things to being pure until he could even reach such a thing as holy spirit kurdish that was an amazing thing but these people are also learning tanya but they didn't let me into the sheer they would bring tanya yeah they were learning tanya these people in belgium be talking about no because their teacher that was the talmud of rafael so he was a masjid at the yeshiva in haida it was a regular literature yeshiva he was a masjid in this madrid but he also had the sheer uh see this tanya and the people would make fun of him and they would say um the last gentiles yeah because uh the galaxy they weren't too happy that people should learn tanya there was always that that kind of tension so continue please so this was uh in belgium from there yeah so what year did you come to america not so fast that's so fast uh the journey so they didn't let you into the time when you were 15 or 16 at the time so i hid out in the in the bathroom next door to be able to listen in someone had to go to the bathroom and they gave me a maskante because they wanted me to be really serious first with the missiles you show him you know you don't let everybody in right and so since the longing that was in me was very great and i would sneak it on you off the shelf and try and learn myself and member of this capital where the hell that talks about the king who takes the poor man oh yeah i fell in love with the rabbi at that point it was a remarkable remarkable words so then uh and the capacity that everybody could be available it's in my in my control me this color what i can let in what i cannot let into my mind this was wonderful but the germans bombed and we had to flee and i was in the vichy side paul hashem so that the germans didn't take us we were in two concentration camps for refugees we came out and i was in marshay and that marseille i first met uh schneiderlin who came in one shot this afternoon and my yiddish was always yeah and here he sits down with us a couple of you know like that used to wear too and one leg under he wasn't one of his legs wasn't working well under his and he started to say sing a [ __ ] which i still remember and i still remember how he said it and i hung on every word a moment a mimer it was a memo of the of the toilet yeah i walked him to his hotel and asked him we are bokren here and we have we don't have anyone to learn with us and he got us um zilberstein jaime yes to be uh he was an older bacha from the yeshiva and he learned with us they told us that you know uh it'll happen uh they didn't say two bishop come show so yeah he's gonna come and i can't be with you i have to be in vishy i'll send you a guest in the meantime i would see somebody who was dressed in business clothes or the gray very sued very dignified young man and i didn't see him talk a lot with people there but there was a haram from algeria with whom he sat and learned and in my mind he i thought of him as the moroccan so all of a sudden the moroccan comes in and says here and we tell him that we are studying service and we have some fruit and and some schnapps and he take the fruit the schnapps said look i'm and then begins to lay out for us what does it mean that a young woman is to be married on the on tuesday on the third day of the week and started to right away saying what does it mean about days of the week because six thousand years is the world two 2000 is wild and wooly 2000 is torah 2000 is desa mashia now i'm going to make a footnote i didn't really feel you know if i were to ask what is the basis of my um soul's attention gravitation uh it's not to the past it's always to the next thing to the future your own yeah that's my own really i want to say that my uh as if i'm made that way yeah so um it's for this reason that uh when someone was saying that there is a flow to history and it's not all homogeneous as it were he had me and i would i repeated that teaching many times to other people i heard and it was it was very important to me i still didn't know who he was we got to uh the united states oh she didn't know the time he's the son-in-law did that not nothing but this is a great guy and you didn't know his name did you know his name no nothing did what they didn't talk about if i had heard some do you think i would have left him alone i would have brought that old tanya that i got and said teach me you know right and he would have done it too you know so but i didn't know so then we got to new york and i wanted to see the rabbi and i was at the hayas and i walked all the way to saint john's place and i i didn't know anything you know just coming off the boat what year are you talking about now this is now 40 1940. what month do you remember it was uh around the it was argentine peso pesa i'm sure so i started to walk and i didn't make it and walked all the way back to manhattan you you walked to say to the 770 or wherever that's because i had known about 770 eastern parkway wasn't already you know about it yeah so but then my friend abram weingarten whom i who was part of the group in belgium yes got me to talk to raf simpson and under the uh and he told me who that man was the moroccan was so he says yeah you can get in to see that and give regards from his son-in-law so this is before he came to america that's what he was still in france right 1940. yeah so i got into um oh yeah he does at that time simpson was with me because i still to be able to hear what i was saying he had my whole life in front of him in a few minutes and then he started to fix up uh my brother entered into yeshiva torah semes my sisters right and my sisters in uh shalom it's school because rabbits na rivkin was there in charge and he found us with yoodle ever some um work in fur because i'd learned how to be a furrier once which you'd levered there was one hebrew ever across the street of 770. a good level of shiva passed away in the holocaust no no but he was the one who uh had a fur business so he gave us some work to do and that's how we started to have vanessa and we had our you and your father yeah and the shop my mother too and the shot was one room in our home in borough park over 13 um um on 13th avenue on 53rd street shabbos is the show yes and we were on the third floor of that place you were the third floor of that building yeah and i had a key to the basmatis and the kind of davanan i did at marip there when nobody else was there it was it was wonderful you know about the show today well who's got the show the show is still the anshes fart yeah but it's the minion factory it i think it's even bigger it has more minion than even urushiolai maybe but the minion factor is non-stop mignon in that show and the third floor that you say you live there today they made a base message there you come in lenin coffee and the just to learn in your apartment if you tell them you lived here what there is today so that's wonderful yeah and after i as soon as i could when my parents were able to do their business i went to the yeshiva before that i would come every wednesday night to hear uh rafchadakov give a share in reversal and that was also wonderful because you see we got to talk see this and nobody ever taught us how to learn a sticklezoyer so how you know we we we hear kiso but we never saw you know everybody says that uh how simpson took place and so on so but we never saw it direct this way so that was hard i had one hour while i was in yeshiva and it was middle-ish that was sort of a free you could do what you what you and i was doing char blatler i opened up him yeah and looked what's in him who wrote them the title page yeah title thank you and and also the table of contents so that i would have an idea who was writing it and what was it all about and then i was able to choose in my free time whom i want to to to read this area when you were in the yeshiva yeah so gracious was one of those that i grabbed yes so so uh you started in 1941 in the laboratory and then and so you were about 17 or 18 17 right and you were full-time student or you were still working no full time by that time it was full-time full-time rob mentalic first i was with resolvement and there was uh or if jacobsen was the first muskie and raphsmule was the second one who were you closest to from the mashpee marash that's hard to say because i had the room next to the toilet do you know what i'm talking about yes what what when you had the room you you lived there yes that was my that was your next dormitory room that's right in and 770. and my job was to close the lock the door and to open it in the morning you mean of 770 and 770 yes that was your job sold my job and reshmule when he needed some someone to go to the grocery store for him and buy him something i was the shaliah so in this way raphsmule and i had something but it was rob jacobson who was wonderful uh sedum would say he he was abrasive to my sides you live in the zeitung you know uh and which he was but he also was remarkable and i want to say we called him jakey of course and every time it was when there was a particular uh holiday i gave me the pogba yes i don't want to say that word yeah fine fine sometimes you say it in english so that meant like would uh not let us out of the sheer but we would sneak out you need to go to the fabregas the gods are bringing some some place in flatbrush and so on and the schnapps that we have was bathtub schnapps some are homekey but somehow from potatoes ah made in the bath you know in a bathtub all right like the shamans and you'd go and you fill up a bottle and the government didn't get any taxes from it you know right and so we each brought our bottle uh jk didn't want us to eat much because of his caffeine what do you mean he didn't want to eat much no at the time he always wanted to make sure that we would really get out of our normal mind into something better so then he could talk you yoda inisma everybody knows has his own flaw and he would begin to talk about preemies he would begin to talk about personal qualities and how to improve them and he would tell us amazing stories and signing on him and when i was sing i remember one night we were singing and i was just so crying the whole time because the sense of children was yet before i knew about the balshampton saying that he's gonna be there when you sing this [ __ ] right and later on when i was in fall river and i was working with young people and teaching him nigunim there was a problem people would sing the night but what would they be thinking about you know they didn't know how to fill it context so i made some words and i showed them to the river yeah i showed them these words and i had made four nigh and on three he was masking and on the fourth one he said chabanesh made multi-million don't start up with the altar one second you you you put words to uh to that's right right you didn't you didn't compose the negan itself no right so for instance if you have the hakone yes you know that one before the letter begins for the sake of my soul i search for a goal and i find no other than you o lord you find satisfaction in my mitzvah action when thy light in the torah i see oh grant me the awareness of your precious nearness in your presence o lord i long to be help me in my start to make pure my heart and all in the end will turn out well oh lord so many years have gone by in great ways to love your wondrous sweetness you have granted me a taste teach me please and reach me and show to me and grant me your grace until the day on which i may see your holy face i'll give you later on the uh words to these three [ __ ] amazing yeah so you made the four yeah what year was this do you have any recollection roughly yeah i was in 51 52 but soon after the series i had a whole chef with him before and i had a chef him afterwards i used to bring hello directors to him and uh after the stalkers when i came i want to tell that one so continue so i was crying when we were singing that [ __ ] because it was very clear to me that these migunins were wordless prayers when people would speak of the gaguim the longing and it i had the sense that when i met other yeshiva bhagavan from other places they didn't have any gaguim you know there was there wasn't that that sense of oh you know i i want to reach to this and to me this was very important right dominant whatever i could learn about dominant i just wasn't too dominant there's a place where you go out from the basement on 770 the back stairs too that would lead to where the rebbe's room was yeah and there's a locked door yes that was my hiding place to dublin yeah yeah that's where i would go and and i would dub there and shabbos afternoon um i would uh prepare before shabbos akana sardines a couple of challenges and uh something to drink and at four o'clock i made kiddish because i wasn't the dom in barriers i mean for me this was so clear um the story um a father who's a peasant the father is a peasant the son is a shepherd and he loves music and the two of them sit in a restaurant that finally they managed to to sell the cattle and this and that so he is there with his son and the restaurant the orders of steak and he says oh the sake is a machaya in the meantime there's a band playing and the sun is with the band all the music of the mecha the father says why don't you you let the state go he says father the music is on the both of them are looking at the guy who sits there with a philosophy book and they say they know the spell he doesn't eat or he doesn't lead to the music and the guy says oh this is a machaya then the three of them are walking out and they're walking by a steeple that's a powerful story i never heard that before it's a good story so so you get the idea if you were to say what was um nikla was what i had to pay my dues with you know study of talmud right let's see this was and and was in your in your eyes who was a bigger governor rabbi jacobson a rubbish muller if you if you remember that who impressed you more the strange thing is i was never there when jacobson not never i i would go to a school here to show this new york right i would go to his house to learn some of the hotel and stuff like that because these my mother weren't there and he still had memories of the rebel assad and he would tell us about uh how he had a must be a gronim yeah he had another by the name not so much that he explains things but the sense you get that everything that you read there is so is really so that was very important so um you're mentioning also you said you were saying that you didn't see robert jacobs really dubbing it yeah yeah but when he would talk about when he talked about cedars and he would talk about his abundance he was very much into his us and there were times when he was saying to us as a fablingian machine is fine but don't forget there's and you have to be from in other words there's a work that you do with other people outside and that's important and we used to knock on doors and get kids to go to the release time instructions and do all that that's how we build these shiva in uh bridgeport and new haven and and um springfield and so on himself lived in 770. yes so i imagine he saw him him i saw but i never saw in him how would i say yes something that would be going to ecstatic expression he would go with the towers over his head and he hardly ever stood still he always walked when he was dominant don't forget where he was he had been imprisoned he had been all that this stuff he was deep into the dominant but he didn't share much what's going on that brings me to a story because when i was in yeshiva one night from jacobson of paris and sitting at the table and brought him around and ribs saying don't really dumb what's the matter with the book they don't done he didn't say it in english and i said to him i took first a glass of schnapps of tumblr like this drank it down then i said what do you have why are you angry at us you never told us what's going on inside of you when you're dabbing so he looked at me and said what kind of a chutzpah that is and i keep on saying listen this is toilet and i need to learn what's the whole point if i i'll never be able to dump him if i don't know what what's what's doing inside of you so he turns to jacobson and says he's in your you tell him so jacob says all these years when he would go all the way like this i i was working hard and i'm dabbing and he wants me to tell while he's standing on one foot and i say and that's true that's exactly your darn tootin you know and um he is angry and rabab paris says it is the fault after all he is right if you don't tell them so they say you open your mouth you have to tell them so rebecca paris begins to share from modani up to golgi soil what's going on i i wish someone would hypnotize me that i would be able to remember it verbatim but i was so absorb i so absorbed this is in my in my cells what he said he came to the ahmeda to the sheminate he said ad khan up to here i can take you the rest of it is just between god and me so it was wonderful for being in at that point but these are the things that interested me now um did you have adam did your friends respect you for your at that time for your davening and your strong interest in his abundance meditation and hasidis in other words what was the atmosphere like in the in smackdown it depends who perez you know and pop um and with them i didn't have trouble uh sean gordon was always fun to hang out with and to talk and he knew how to take the most serious thing and make it into humor and that was great uh herschel schusterman was always like proper a noble person you know mohandica person avon barnetsky and and uh oh i wish i forgot some of the other names like right all these these were wonderful people and uh so then when elia axelrod would come in from baltimore we would sneak away to have upbringing with him because he was just wonderful if i had to really pour out my heart to someone uh i it was him i would go to him not robbie jacobson because jacobson would right away start telling me what i was doing wrong right okay lebron wouldn't even have a soggy what's eating me you know it's bothering you right uh so it was he he was the kind of person i would have come to i've written about him i'm going to leave you in my book i've written extensively about because from the stories that i've heard about him it seemed to it seems to me that even amongst his coveted individual that he in and avoids hashem it seems to me he stood out amongst all of them yeah am i right on my assumption that's that's how i feel it top shin gemuldus 43 symbol uh and he were dancing holding each other by the beard like this and it was wonderful and rabbi romelli was talking about how the the that which surrounds us over our head has to come down into us and uh libyan gordon says it's nice with the legs not without with the head it was wonderful i have good memories of that time um the reason i asked you that question by the way because i heard and now that i'm talking to you directly i want to know if this is the case what i heard is that there were some in the basement at the time that were giving you a hard time about your davenink is that is what i heard correct this is correct yes and about other things you know uh i went and bought a secondhand shirt took well then then it's a bucker as a blocker you bought a you bought a second hand yes that's right and you want to start wearing this for sure for shabbas bring the shabbos but why not you know okay and the book and your friends criticize you of course you know um okay then there was a 46 when the the pointless ship came you know did you have a relationship with emma you already were out no no earlier yet uh weinberg they came and mentally when who was my friend because he also was a governor [Music] yeah and um he wrote me some very nice letters and at one point i was saying why is it that here in 770 we don't get that stuff so he wrote back you know around the sea sometimes there's sand and it's not so so juicy there so so so you're saying that you you felt that what i'm hearing is that you felt then that that you're not getting um in 770 uh although you had all these precedent people and you felt kind of uh lacking you felt that you're that something's not being disclosed to you is that correct that they're holding something back no that hadn't i didn't feel uh i didn't feel that but i don't don't forget people were easy to give bitushim you know to really give you criticism take your criticism and dig you and so and so forth it's like you know and say rough stuff at you because that's part that was part of how we talked to each other right we were not polite rabbi so-and-so yeah right so we gave each other a hard time that wasn't a problem the problem was look i would always there's something that two two things were my problem one was a megalithiana okay so you were an outsider that that already a little bit suspicious with the polish stick you know okay okay that's that's number one and i was sometimes when the bottler came to the air i would sometimes go to the bubba stitch but well that's very later in the 40s i'm saying no later later jumping to later yeah and would go to this dish because something was warm and attracting me there too but when i wanted to find out from somebody tell me how do you do kriya mashalamita what the how do you do the examination of conscience before you go to sleep you know and so on so forth these the kind of conversations that uh i didn't get too many people too many i didn't get maybe a little bit without weingarten but but not many others who were willing to talk about the inner work uh well not why wha why was that why they felt that you weren't ready no that was that wasn't the problem that wasn't the problem the problem was i i have a feeling that there's something that happens when you are in a certain environment and you pick up the vibe of the environment and the vibe of the environment was pro-dominant but you know also that everybody died i mean that the people were in angelica you know they were not fools they really invested time and we would speak about the distinctions between davan and bihisolus and awakened dominant and darwin barriers which is a whole other more meditative form of dominant and we had conversations about these things it wasn't wasn't but when you talk about going inside your own feelings you know for this you need to have a good friend and only with a good friend can you talk about that that was more absent than the best matters for me to so what what type of discussions did you have to travel abroad i didn't i i didn't but my feeling was that if i had to oh oh he wasn't he did he wasn't they just yeah yeah his older brother was older in europe yes but jacobson and he already left yeshiva early yeah he was no longer there and of course did you have a relationship with robert mentlick well any interesting stories or thoughts he he was a good teacher and there's certain traits that he had he couldn't really get angry and usually people say redheads angry people once he had to be angry with us so he turned around to the bank of books and then turned around to us and made an angry face and uh really let us have for not for spending time in a foolish way and then his face broke and says did i scare you he was such a wonderful person and the thing that we would always really in our heart keep wishing him that he should have children he never didn't yeah it was mashiach his brother-in-law with him i had a sense of an older brother like really yeah he once came to new haven and he told me uh was our guest for shabbos and so we don't sing smiles you know just the uh the those that are the real kaddish's the right uh so he says don't do that his father-in-law was uh stuck in heineken and he is the one that the liberal has so much loved he's the only one who dared to sit with the shrine of the revolution and when he was single that that song it was wonderful and then it was adopted that the the kachin of mr um you mentioned earlier that uh you you you right that was the one that was he took the alternative no no no go away you know that i would not sharpen to begin with you you even do that when you don't start up that that for that you need to have another way but it was the aveeno volcano as i sit and hereby praying my heart to you these words are said something like that beautiful so he says japanese with malm but the nickname as i said and i think i remember my heavenly home as i said you know that [ __ ] yes and then when it came to the mirrorless [ __ ] i took the words of the basiligani because fastest because the balshem said that he would be there when we are singing and the rabbi left us this mind i came to my garden from beyond time and space to meet my bride my beloved and our own very special meeting place for not the angels of heaven above but you souls i love you that this has something to do with the miner and then i would say um it makes me act like a fool so the ruler comes in and all that so um you've recorded these four you've recorded them you've there's i have recordings of that yes um what about uh the there was a talbot the student motto fisher do you remember him no he was a friend about from herrers no okay rabbi weinberg you are sure was always his yiddish classes on tanya on the on the radio yeah but i'm asking the yeshiva in the 40s yeah i didn't have much to do with him uh mendel tenenbaum a little bit more but mostly it was uh i stayed in touch when i would come to montreal i would hang out with martenseif greenglass right chick uh you know i he talked about adapting he was a big governor see that's immediately i told you yes raichik was a whole other thing but he was doing it in such a way that you couldn't know what's going on in him either right that's true i don't know if you're aware you probably are i think it was a tough chance 1948. yeah it's printed in the citrus by jacobsen and maybe another one or two came down from the rebel and they were they were they were ice matched they were not by themselves and they said that that ever said there this hashem yeah yeah so i i heard that they turned around and said upstairs and they sociable and they said david do that's for blaming about dude so that was wonderful he had a uh a way whoa i couldn't make a woman because he came from home i mean this polish expression so he really had to listen sharp to understand what he was saying but a good house he was a very very good-hearted person okay so so you you're so if someone would have asked you when you were in yeshiva those years you were alibaba uh you you felt yourself as a full-fledged liberty booker yes of course without any questions there were no questions about in my mind that was like all the other city my kingdom for myself you really had that feeling i had that notion i mean what what do they do you know what what what is it that they have you could go listen to a rebel you can sing songs and you can have but in what is their things that was because i didn't understand much either you know okay but you but you still but you still uh gravitated late a little later to the bolivar i mean you know that that came later but also it was the time of the three cold coilers you mean with the out of the blue yeah yeah what do you mean the three well what they were for four coils and that was a time that the learn missionaries by heart goby uh purify the air in the city um and we would stick labels on the subway and everything allowed the legend i heard about that but the trouble was nobody else understood what this is all about and one of my friends was arrested for by police for defacing property and we all envied him for sitting in jail he actually was in jail yes you're referring from point guard from mount height abrupt mount height yeah he was in jail for one night and we envied him for having had this uh for the rebels indian to be so you you you were amongst the bahrain who ran around putting up these uh these settlers and getting kids into going to the wednesday hour having lots of fun that tells me the instructor put the skull cap on oh put the skullcap on there was something put that pistol down there was a song but yeah you were a good friend of your uncle hector uh the ankle it was a different story uncle was very much the person who wanted to make sure at that point i had the disdain for the for the world yeah but the angel wanted very much that the world should respect that was his if you if you saw the way his talk was the way he would translate the best things the way he was the one who wanted to make sure that the average person from the world would would respect hadad what do you mean you had a disdain a disdain for the world in other words you came to the feeling of bitter yes no no no no no no that's not what you're referring to not this this way but uh why should i bother to try and convince other people you know when i can spend the time and dab and and and learn and and see this you know this this is how i felt while i was in yeshiva but there was something else a wonderful incident we didn't have certain mymorim around in those days very little was printed in a shop printed in a printing place most of the stuff to my marim were typed out by the baboon paris on this typewriter with a cigarette in his mouth and when he made a mistake the the rabbit said was a good mistake amping misspelled in with an eye in instead with and alef you know he said was a good mistake so where do we get these my mother that they always were saying oh this my mother's this is mine but this my uh so i would borrow them from jakey and uh at that time i was no longer on 770 i was across the street there was another dormitory 7 49 no 667 whatever it was yeah and they also had an office a yeshiva office there so one day my chapinhas katz sends me out to open up the office for the secretary and i go to the locksmith and i make a key and then i open up for the secretary and every night i sneak in to the office and roll out the hebrew typewriter and put a negative stencil and start typing you start typing yes a whole cell and stuff like that and you just you have to do this clandestinely and that's right that's right because it was avraham paris's job and no one else it was just what right have i got to go into the yeshiva office okay sneaking in right so my muzzle is that one day i'm moving the machine back and the machine falls off that little table and breaks the carriage i try and put it together the secretary comes in is broken then an investigation happens finally one of the kids and you were in the same dormitory told him it was i so i'm sitting and learning and a phone call comes in at the end of the hall where the telephone was and down the shafter you have to come up to the office of don holland now mentally uh what was the name of the other roshiva picarsky no he's one of those the signers of my smithson i'm sorry i forgot and um and jacobson and of course rashad and what right have you got would you this is the rebels territory nobody has a right they give me the thing i say rabbi sai give me two minutes i'll be right back i run down and i take from the mimeograph cell the hercules and another mine i forgot what it was and put a few of these together for each one to have and i come up and i hand them out to these things so they they start saying this and right away i was okay but i had to pay for the breaking of the typewriter which was thirty-five dollars which i didn't have because rip shmuel one comes in one day at purim and he says where or where do i give matonas leave him to the poor and somebody says how about the booker right because we were the right people for that but so i paid it off by teaching mayor greenberg's uh classes from time to time so that paid off for the typewriter but i i didn't get access to typewriter again um why did you make a certain face when you mentioned rashad um because he i liked him a lot my mind you i don't but at this point he had to be the guy but the accuser you know you had a a relationship with russia you had the conversation i liked i liked him because he was out of shabbos he was kazura mimer and of shabbos just before you know before kabbalah shabbos friday night yeah okay and you used to sit and listen yes and i could ask him questions i didn't understand what does the word nimitz nimus mean and he would explain to me in german because that's my language unstand once i asked him a close question it was in touching gimbal when my mother were that on shabbos goes up yes who minds the store you know okay yeah the world right the world has to be taken care of so i asked this question to rashad and he explains to me if on shabbos so a symphony is there were little things of that sort and he loved to say lulay allah he loved to say that if we only would be more on the ball we could have done chewa twice already at this point he loved that he loved to sing ahmed he had a very nice nusa uh for um the shamanist repetition when he had to at your side and so on so i i liked them this way but um they were so different the two brothers-in-laws it's not not were you uh witness to that uh period when um when i've heard that there was a tense period when the rabbi passed and the transition and the family wanted this you were you involved then or not really were you aware of it you got let me tell it to my my way okay okay okay from time to time the rabbit uh now i'm talking who was known as the hamas would um see me ask me because when he came in by the way i stopped telling you the story so i've been later on when the rebbe said yes said to me and what did he say so i started to repeat a little bit of that so sometimes he made like this with his head you know but he didn't criticize me when the rebbe came to america he first put that with his tallest over a hat and there was obviously a chef we would whisper about the four pairs of film that they put on and so on and so forth so in other words in other words who are you to put on four pairs of twelve no no that wasn't no that wasn't no no no but that wasn't an accusation no nobody no but you know like that right okay and um yeah so he would see me and uh i was working on the 84 fast days you took upon yourself to you yeah you you learn tanya you got to do it so he said to me you're fasting don't so he saw me you know and um did you listen huh did you listen listen i've finished first it goes very easy to listen yeah when it came to uh during the time yeah i was standing outside not too far from him and not a shock and they were saying to hilim while there was a shamanist from berlin who was known as a good kardisha person and well respected and he was doing the tower for the rabbit with a few people inside and every once in a while when he had a question he would come out and whom do you think he asked that's right and it was sort of it was clear wasn't it an issue um my wife gave birth to a child and while she was still they she asked for ether once she was on the ether what year is the student this was at the the at three days after the histalkos oh your first child was three days after these talcus yeah uh what's his name janko heft had a boy before they stalkers but but uh the stalkers was before the bris so he was zeitgem with the first years of heatstroke i was the second one oh his name is and and i appeared to her and said you should let know in new york and she said whom and she saw him making the letters raise my machine again oh well once again this is told i'm not following it yes uh she sees while she's oh she saw her he had a vision yes and oh and and and he and he's mentioned okay i understand and she came out of that and was crying and was saying how was i worthy to be able to have that vision okay i come back to new york for him and i'm going where were you by the way at this time where were you in new haven in fall river massachusetts when did you leave from new haven to fall river that's a whole other story but uh um let's go to this yeah so i'm washing my hands after i come from from the oil from the grave of the river and the river was standing there still wearing the gray suit and the fedora and he asked me you were the ohio saw that i was washing my hands and he said you were at the oh hell and i said yes and so he said so may god help that whatever you prayed for should be fulfilled and i said if people will not interfere he said what do you mean and i said i prayed for three things i prayed that we should have a habit that you should be delivered and you should be blessed with children he held my hand at that time and we both were crying and he said but what difference does it make with these in this world or the other world what difference does a man make in which world the river is the river is always here yes and i got back at him with a koska vote and i said if the british would have wanted that he wouldn't have taken much rabbina and hit him so no one should go this way yeshua couldn't send them out to the oil he had to be rabbit himself so he said good and that was the purim after they saw so there was that whole year all kinds of things were happening about this time and so i'm not interested in that stuff so uh then later on when i got my job in uh to take my courses in boston university for my m.a and then got my job in manitoba and the rabbi gave me always a broker for that and was also a professor there and he said that's how he said and i would send him copies carbon copies of letters that i was writing to people about spiritual things and he was sent back to carbon copy with notes that he made there you have copies of those still you won't get them from me so don't don't even ask you know uh don't think about it yeah so uh but this was wonderful because i was able to uh learn this way you know what what was important there were times i didn't agree with him well what i one letter was about [Music] evolution because i had written to this young woman who said what about evolution and i said what's highest evolution we are always talking about you know this is not the first world and so on so okay with evolution i got back no i shouldn't have said it so i waited when i was in yahidis and i said why not see this always talks about these things why should we not right he says it's about shabbos you have to watch out because it's important to have shabbos so at which point to say six days of 24 hours each and this is what makes up for shabbos in this world i couldn't even then uh agree to that this is so you know i'm not following his response what does shabbos have to do with evolution uh because if you say uh if you say that there hasn't been marsha bereishis this way oh oh so the shabbos falls aside yeah i understand so so but but right you know there were some times when i would say um he would shine me about something and i would say oh this orthodox politics you know or at one point there was a fabregas and um uh uh a no shabbos no balkan yeah and from seven o'clock in the morning and this is now two 2 30 in the afternoon and he says and all the people uh started to rear up to hear their mindset and he says you're puffed my sister to him you know you know you sleep and you want to hear my sister he was sitting with his back to a big white wide window at that time upstairs yeah it was downstairs but in the big oh the chalasha was in the garage yeah by that time they had already built that and there was a big window behind him and so i write him a letter and i say sometimes you need to be doing some apology for the hasidim you sit with your back lit hi people try and see your face when you're speaking when we concentrate on you the pupils open up when the people's open up the light comes and the pupil goes down open up close down people fall asleep and by the way it's been going on for so many hours and people haven't been home with their families why are you angry with them and if you want to make a tickle you make sure that this window is going to be covered listen i wrote him once a whole thing about um why i wanted to have a little uh walk-in place on wall street sort of a little shtibula uh bismuth chinese for tea and so that people could get some counseling after they had been to 770 because at that time 770 wasn't so clean and still not so clean so i wanted to to do that and i wrote a whole a whole protocol on that album weingarten and i were the ones who started messing with shabbos first i mean this is they've been working at that so um and he said wasn't the right time yet but now when you look about how this is all over so it's an amazing what what what year roughly was this uh request of your 61 62 261 62. i want to go back uh i'm finished with the free crap this time i understand you had a lot of yakida like you had more than once a year actually um i can't say the numbers of that but you know i would come in for and i'll say how did you get in i understand belgram students they they almost never let in i was told um was it you had a special i was already a young man at that time i was already in manitoba well i'm talking about the 1940s nothing in the 1950s 1940 with the friday but yeah that was that was easy if you if you had a good reason for instance i had to go stealing that he had to go for army right things at one point my father had thrown me out of the house because he wasn't happy that i should go in the street and catch little kids to bring him to ref simpson's house for mrs bashabas he says uh i don't want you to be a belfer so how wonderful the welsh i'm giving up the i want to be above her you know so he didn't want me to be a billboard and then he's out of the house so i schlepped a couple of orange boxes with my swollen on the subway the bmt to the irt and come to 770 and tell rap simpson the my father threw me out of the house and so i'm only going to see the reddit so uh he said no you know what he what do you mean he threw out of the house so i said no you see he doesn't want me to do mr bashaw's stuff so he says you'll go right back and tell him i asked you to apologize to him and then i said so what should i do in the next shabbos he says you'll go again and get the kids so i come home about uh it's two o'clock in the morning schlep you know the subway goes slow at that time and um i knock on the door and my father comes in his night outfit and looks at me like this and i say the rebel told me that i should apologize to you so i apologize to you says a smart jew and he let me in next shabbos he sees me go out again and he says this he also told you and then he says [Laughter] so so i mean these you wanted to have personal stuff this is personal well that's good this is this so so um but and it seems like you had would you say you more than maybe most other of your friends had um more of a an open relationship with with with the yachts during your shift years is that a true statement i think that's true because jakey once told me that i should go and say that the uh an aids from the labor on uh because i'm a reader so say that in english because you're superficial that i'm superficial so you should go see the level for nato for advice for a ticket so i come in and uh he says to me so beautifully in every country i'm making her yeah it has its own expressions america has an expression it is take it easy if you want to take it you got to do it easy it isn't yet a problem for you you have still much to go before this becomes your problem so that was one wonderful thing that that was there he told us to be jacob and but but but but he treated when he spoke to you felt you you felt like he's like uh you felt his love you felt i understand you you you were you were enamored with him that any word you're gonna say is gonna be inadequate take a look the year that he was saying kaddish for his mother and uh yeah okay 1942. and he was at the door this to the yahida's room to that little room and we were in the little room davenan and when he was at the omit and he would go [Music] um [Music] she remember the the you know that so look one of the things i want to say that that the young people should also hear but you don't learn dominant from a book you learned from a governor and i loved the story when hannah his daughter was fixing his helping him with that film and she showed him the mirror so he should see that phil not in the right place and he said otto's that's who i am i'm a governor you know and when you look at the nights or show the nights you were there rashad oh oh the tears the tears the hours the hours you know model old time got a one of the handkerchiefs that that was all wet from the rebels tears it was a remarkable time so obviously that that's that's how it was that you felt uh oh you sit that at uh you were buying with the rabbit and he goes [Music] and you see his face at that time and what do i want i want to feel what he feels you know i make myself a vessel to experience to attune to him and that's the word i want to say if anybody wants to learn how to dom find the dhabiner and then a tune which means ask your body how is his body doing what is his body doing ask yourself how is he breathing ask yourself what's the heart stuff that's going on ask yourself on what level is this mind operating at this point i'll show you something that i wrote it is a symphonic uh arrangement for the first bracha of the amida what you have to take care of because that was my special gift that i always wanted to find out how do you do it and what's happening inside and how to be mocked how to share with other people so they should be able to get to it themselves so it should come from inside out not from outside in as you know the chabad system of meditation of this bondingness is very much avoided not when you do adapted i'm not saying it remains at vladimir yeah were you engaged at that time in avoiding as well of course you know listen uh when you learn a mimer uh here abraham paris would learn with me a shabbos mornings when i wasn't at the yeshiva it would be with my parents in boro park so i'd go over to so six i was at the mcveigh and the 630 at one of the seven abram paris yeah yeah he learned with me a mimer and i'll soon remember the title of the mimer but the content of the mimer was to talk about the koya hamafly losses that uh a mage this amazing property of the miraculous order of things time is gone uh i may have to soon stop but i don't care let's go on as long as i can so the miraculous order of things it is three o'clock in the afternoon when i'm on my way home or maybe later and there's a big tree there a big elm tree i think it was and i stood in front of that elm tree and looked at this koya hamafly losses in the elm tree how underneath the bark there is so much life from below and the uh uh the uh karba no carbon carbon oxide uh is going into the leaves and comes down and all this is so much full of highest and my molecule almond is in that tree and i stood in front of the tree for about a half hour or longer so it's not when you learn a mimer it's not just to be able to repeat what the mimer says but when it says something about um with whichever level is talking about what's what's spherus and so on so forth it's really important to you see the real kaddish makes it very clear and and although tanya says the same thing he makes it very clear that all this is just an excuse to be able to talk about it but what's really going on is much deeper and doesn't even get into words the words are just poor ways of stammering about the realities that are underneath there so when in the beginning you have to learn the words you have to know uh that bria is always over you see that you have to know all these things but then after a while you have to know what does it feel like inside and what does bria feel like inside so when you say about this and you get there after you have done bhikha and you've gotten into your body you know and then you go and took it as himba you know when you go nishmas call high a whole a whole thing and nishmas you can spend hours on and then when you come to birhat and you see malachi mensah and then you look and you follow they say that is the order of the evolution there and you see this in the world and you look at the afanim and you see those little planets and you look at the highest and you see the signs of the zodiac zodiac the arie and the nasher and all these you know shore et cetera and then you look at the galaxies and the software so you have a whole thing adenoid is from the big bang to the last black hole that's his now his friend you know these are the kinds of of things that you do with the dominant because you want the devotional thing to say rapunzel i want to bring you a present of my awareness and of my being with you and my focusing you and i are talking about the reborn but the benjamin is here so i keep saying to people we have these conversations that this conversation is being monitored by quality purposes you know so this is this is work see this is important okay did you have any of these type of discussions with either the the yachts or the the or the rebel feelings and issues and questions yes did you discuss it with them at all or you didn't this i was able to do some of it but by that time i was how would i say a sergeant in the army i would have to give reports and how is it with this person and what have you done with that person you know you know how that goes with the masculine yes so it was this way but i also then i once i said i want to ask you something about the rules but i don't know what the question is you said i don't know the question yeah so you tell me and he would say uh zaimab said in lakota then you'll know what to ask okay now he's getting footage that the other guys never got well this did because you know this is where i interview and also this is my love and my someone's gonna see this interview someone's going to read it they're going to ask it up salmon they're going to ask you they're going to ask me they're going to ask how does this coincide with what you did for the renewal movement okay that's the question it's a good one well what's that one and one more question yeah did you if you can in 1940s or even maybe in the 50s when you had a strong relationship with you did you at that time ever think that you're going to take this to a level and an experience that you did in the sixties seventies and eighties no no because remember the rebellion was talking about the velm de kerabonim right yeah the rabbis that were worms that were worm eaten corrupted corrupted so uh and i was right behind that you know but what happens is when you start outreach then you have to if you treat the people like they know nothing you won't make any impact on them if you find out what is it that they do know and then address what they do know then you have an impact so already in new haven when i was in yeshiva there was a group of israelis and other people sort of yiddish culture mentioned you know with whom i would hang out from time to time so i learned something from them i came home once from new york in a late train to new haven and a guy sits with me he had just seen a show about the seed and warsaw in the ghetto giveaway and so on so forth these were my buddies with whom i would hang out and have some kind of ash these children on the yeshiva on the other hand i made up ditties for them fruits growing on the ground like vegetables and roots bori prehea is a broker for such fruits and for hala and vermatsa for wine i had all these these things for the kids at that time so when you begin to pay attention to the people whom you want to influence something from them comes into you i can't say that i the filter goes only one way you know something comes in deeper a terrible ocean beneath them if i have to talk with the people in their language i have to find out what the language is that is what made me understand something about american jews that most people don't quite get i once had a geschafter martial a feller i love that guy he's wonderful so he said to me uh zalman you want to get to have the people get uh given one fell swoop and i said you're darn tootin because the people who say do chiva tattoo first and then i'll give you yiddish spirituality uh do get your your life together first but if you go the other way and you say take hold of their yearning and the longing for god and when you take hold of their longing and you give them tools like a negan like you want to do your you've gotten you know you learned how to meditate from yogi's own so good i'll show you how to make your own talos and put in the scissors and then you'll sit with this talisman do your meditation and i would describe to them how to do that and that was the first little booklet that i wrote called the first step and i brought it to the rabbit ramash yes he looked it over and said kadai but you take out boober uh i had that bibliography in the back he'd take out boober but he gave me a hasher on that and it was printed later on the first jewish catalog and so on my sense of outreach came don't forget i told you i was in gymnasium and i learned latin and all that kind of stuff so in vienna and music and psychology and all that stuff is in the air there so i wasn't just just while i was in yeshiva i wanted to be a fumaboker you know yes and i was and and that was my whole attention but when i started to reach out to people i wanted to find out what are their questions how can where can i meet them and where can i install in them something that they should feel that they exist no prayers okay but that that's true as far as that as far as the people uh the question that i'm really pointing at is you yourself so you yourself the people i understand you yourself how did you in your mind what were you thinking that's very simple once you take uh you know you build a building you have a uh like a skeleton a scaffold you take the scaffold down then it's the building see this and lubavish is a great scaffold for yiddish guy but when you look behind that then you begin to ask some important questions what is it about women where should they be what's their place you know and you look at me and you look at varalay and you look at all the the other people who were there they weren't nothing and what was it that they had when the rebel describes that the circuit what to do on shabbos when the the arrow was down that they asked the woman what to do and she is the one who gave the ruling the rule so the place of women was an important part the other part is now that the whole business of baltachis was as far as the earth is concerned the global thing so i was concerned about that but there was an in-between step when the dead sea scrolls were found one scroll was called the scroll of the war of the children of light against the children of darkness and everything i could read about those people and the way they were looking for god was touching me a great deal then i in the 50s early 50s i wrote an article toward qumran usa toured an order uh uh a jewish contemplative monastic urban order and one of the things that i was worried about is that all the nusras are getting lost nobody today can give you the nusa of rhineland you know there was something very special about the about from the balatoys of isan yeah from europe you know you see the ashkenaz no that's lost and everything gets put in between karla bachan israeli army and that musa has become a big mishmash hatchbach and it's a pity because i wanted to have a saddam one here the yemenite muslim and one year to darwin the the other ada samidra mizrahim sometimes the italian so that these nutrients should not be lost that was one part of that then each person should learn one derek become embodiment this one is our muslik you know he is he's got the revisor and this one has this and this one has this so that we make like a noah's ark of keeping these things going and that we would work eight hours in the jewish community and take use eight hours for working for our body in eight hours probably this hashem a day and i wrote this up and i hoped that people would come to it the only answer that i got was one guy who wrote me it won't happen but it's a pity so okay why are you saying all this up this is because that was my transition point you see i was thinking no longer about lubavitch as i was thinking about all these other nutrients the other ages and all that stuff that that's gonna get lost and that it needed to have some place to be in and everything that i learned in order to prepare for that later on i was invited into summer camps and i came to camp rama for instance and there we did the business with the talisman kids wrote their message by five cards and looks after my sawmill so and i started to take these things not so serious that has to be on cloth and it has to be this because i felt that a kid that has written his own message and carved out his own shade open them with a put on his door will know what a mezuzah is you know okay so so my question right there let's take that as an example how did you in your mind justify i mean and here you uh you came up with a very uh bright tool to reach out to the young children um how did you in your mind kind of depart because it is a departure from what you learned from 1941 to 1950 right i mean you you were fully committed to a system yeah are you open to an answer absolutely okay then i want to tell you absolutely i want to understand you yeah because people because people want to understand you they might disagree but they want to understand no i want to tell you something if you if you're done no matter how you're done and you say it's you i'm serving i'm not serving the what do you think i need to do for this time with these people and what you need tell me that i need to do for myself some people will say you know he figures he has something to do but i felt i lived a guided life that way and it led me to these to these things it led me to experience what psychedelics were and to see what all these things that they're talking about oilers and yeah and i got to understand something much much deeper in this way i felt that i had to go and be a scout and check out these things and as i checked them out i felt always i wanted to be in in in in the presence of hashem i tell you a funny mice but i'm not in the same level but i like that nice a lot there was a sons of jose who traveled to the sunset and on his way back he stayed for shabbos with another reveler who asked him why do you have to go to the sons so far away you can come to me i can also teach you he said because in sons i learned how to read minds he says so read my mind he says you're saying you're thinking we say hashem a neglect i'm in the presence of god he says no that's not what i'm thinking that's why i go to sons okay so that's a very important part of that you know i don't think when people look at [ __ ] and they look at me and they figure how come that i was that i didn't stay within within the lines and the answer is i don't think that i went out without being guided in a way you you are here you see where you see my spawn you see where i am and how so that this is not that that i feel that i threw did you have at that time when you made when you went with this approach did you have any guilt at that point i still have what are you talking about i still have you know uh on the other hand let's say we come shabbos and i drive over to your soil um you saw do you need a shiner no no rosencrantz i couldn't walk there you remember the wonderful story about the the the the one who couldn't say show it for good it's a trophy uh it was getting close to to to yontif and the horses were not yet in in joshua you know and he says and the guy says we gotta stop we gotta stop he says no uh sitting in the car is only a schwoz you know but not to hear soipe you know there is that element that you see that from me the priorities kept on changing things that bring you closer to hashem are more important and let me tell you one of the psychological things comes from freud but it's very important a baby is called in the oral stage it likes to to eat to suck from a mother and so on so forth and is very happy with that and the baby goes no place later on where it has to be clean and clean you know and use the potty it's called the next stage and then the kid learns how to be really clean very tight and so on so forth and then you get to another stages called the phallic station everything then is more symbolic and then you get to the stage where every every haberman the most important thing is and then you get to a place where you can have intimacy freud so i heard from this guy who said it's the same thing with religion you get started in it and then just feel oh it's so sweet there's it is milk and honey i want to be that and and then later on the discipline comes and and some people get stuck in the milk and honey and then they can't get more milk and honey from this right but they go to the other end then there's some people who get stuck in the level of discipline like this guy says and what are you desert you know what what are you careful about so this closet said i'm careful about yellow you can cucumbers you know that story yeah so like saying because they're bitter right so that's not the point but then then comes the thing that every time i do something i see what is leading to the on and smile heart and my arm is gonna be in the service of god and everything is symbolic and then it gets to the place a symbol shrimble you know somebody is hungry you gotta help them out and you go into that other phase but there's still another phase when it is the one to the one like you said and i made a little [ __ ] one only one all together one one only one all together one and you sing this with people and that gets into a place and so if there is any if i want to say whatever successes i've had with people it is because i was in touch with that and they were in touch with that through me and that's the difference did you believe during that period when the rabbit ayats was speaking about the chuva immediate redemption immediately repentance we will bring you redemption did you actually believe that he will be the messiah the mashiach the strange thing thing was that i expected that even then let me tell you a story about that because if you look at the akria vagdosha the first issue it has the shira gilda yes and if you read up like the signs point up it says you can check that out i will believe that okay so it is high a little shin gimmel and there is a big hague in one of the wedding halls on eastern parkway yes solaveichik is there he gives a great speech and holds up the river's hand and says help this hand and so on it will be very beautiful solavei telling and i'm standing on on my tiptoes waiting for the rabbit to say the word about the guild and doesn't happen and you can imagine uh how when it started the roshanatov shin dalit i was heartbroken about that it was sad but at the same time you know i had the sense that when i went for tashler and we came to to prospect park and it was locked and the rabbit climbed over and behind them all the others climbed over no better machine than that so so uh you know but i also got to see some very beautiful uh human sides i once wanted to sort of get boys with him already and say you know i came up with three projects and he said no to them so i was going to be vogues with him then he comes into the mother and he's coughing and i see them as citizenship every step of the way of this man and i got to yahidis and i say to him so these ideas are not what you think i should do then i want to do messier then i don't mind you program me i'll be your zombie you know i'll go where you send me and he said it's like being dead so i said yeah but you don't make any mistakes and you always do the right thing but what then he says what joy does god have from that on the on the average she'll do more good than than bad and so every time he bought me you know and that that was that or later on uh years later when uh he calls me in youth based thomas and he says uh is he here and i was outside with somebody so they called me in and the labor says meditation he's making fun of that yes i come in and he uh says drink l'chaim for a retreat and one for the meditation kappa grande he said to me in italian so i take and i say the and he's looking at me like so and doesn't answer him twice doesn't answer then he said no say lechaim i can't say hey man you're spaced out you know so i take another glass and they fill it up this time with uh straight whiskey the first two were vodka and the third one i had to take wine because it was no more around in the neighborhood so you can imagine these three cups of schnapps and a cup of wine on top of that and it explodes in my head and he says you should have a good retreat and a good meditation he goes and they start dancing and i start jumping like a marionette at that point later on when i took my lsd and just as it was coming on i see him again saying look hi we should have a good retreat and a good meditation later on meaning at the same occasion or another two two weeks later i i got to do yes lsd the first time yes this was timothy leary huh together with you theory yeah yes yes and so you were back in 770. no no not for that oh but you saw his vision yeah sure okay it came in so have a good retreat very good meditation i either saw this on youtube or i read and i wanted to verify that with you that again either you were quoted or you said i don't remember and i wanted to verify with you since i'm here that that um you built you believed that he gave you the green light to do that is that is that true i tell you yes i did believe that i did believe that and um because i because i i question it well you you can question no i'm asking i tell you what you open a door into a very risky place but from what i had read about it and from what what i had understood about it i felt that it was a corroboration of everything that i learned and see this would happen at that point and so i wouldn't if he had said no i would have still not listened right but i felt i felt empowered but he actually told you no you didn't no he didn't tell you all he said to have a good retreat have a good meditation okay okay okay fine right so it was your interpretation of what he said that whatever i was gonna do on the retreat and the meditation and whatever matter i was gonna do it being that he's a holy person then i guess he uh you don't make it so biblic it was much stronger it was much do you understand when you say a having doing a retreat means to go deep inside of yourself yeah and having a good meditation means that you really want to be in touch look at the word hassoge you reach it you touch the thing and you become one with it i think i've got to stop my coyotes going out i just let me finish something about a renewal okay i started out with the with the things that i heard from the web in marseille yes and there's something about the shift in time that's very important the biosolution by shiny is carbonus that has to do with oil that's the same moka and then it gets to be in shona those are the 10 days between russia and yom kippur and now it is the nephesh and jana says rabiyan menzaka had to make a fantastic shift in his day to it was a paradigm shift no longer car bonus what was hidden going to look like he starts with five disciples only and out of java you know so i had the same feeling that this is necessary for now that after hiroshima nagasaki auschwitz birkenau the moonwalk the web a new way has to be done so that the white letters of the torah as governor points out in one of his teachings i have to come out that up to now and that we have to live as if mashiach was here already that this is going to lead us to mashiach so i felt no i didn't feel so strong about halakhah as i felt about the whole business of kilwa selekim and once you get that defined you know some people will say yes shop says we also thought like this so i wrote that i gave a whole a little set of lectures about why why renewal is not sebastianism based on the issue it's high in its adas and uh in the gerus the delta river has written and it's built on the on the um and pointing out that it's not because we we want to throw the thing away we want to be we want to be loyal to what comes down minnesota i am now because there's a big difference between if you go alternation it should be ordained it all came from i should be seen right as if no change but here is where i go with the ishbitsa who says um that is the the stuff that's that's kaima that's always and uh and vino you have to understand the changes that go on in every generation and it's very clear that uh every rebel was speaking to his generation and to the mind stuff that was going on at that time so and one of the things is to tell you this um there's a story about the ishbitsa and he's about to leave the kotsuka and um comes over and says give me let's go give me a and so he goes into his pocket takes out some money and a couple of quitler fall down and he says ah you become a rebel already you're taking says what do you think i came to learn from your father's be a shoemaker you know i didn't come to like this to learn how to be a shoemaker i have a few more short questions i i understand what you said um have you groomed a successor to the for the renewal movement after 180 years of your life um if i were to tell you it wouldn't be true and if i said no that would also not be true and the rest of it is up to me okay the next question is um um uh can you if you were to come out with an announcement and maybe you've done i don't know but if you were to come out with an announcement for the renewal movement for example to put on film everything certain mitzvous miceas that should kind of hit home in addition to the ecology and the renewal and everything else that we've spoken about why do you think this isn't so i'm asking i don't know so have you ever seen the jewish catalogue i've seen it years ago so i was the the source of the jewish catalogue because the students who did the jewish catalog were my students at brandeis and some of the stuff was term papers and that little first step of how to be miss buenan is in the back of the first catalogue so in there how to put on film how to make scissors you know and so on i believe that the shot of uh alone that a person should write it himself is very important i'm not saying shouldn't buy other messages but i believe that at least one miss other person should write himself even if if it's on paper well but but i understand about my question is again tell me if i come do i come out with with schmidt of course do you do do you believe that the renewal movement the people on the street the people all the people come to retreats and do they walk away with a sense that the salmon wants us to do this that's no that's my question that's a variable i tell you something it doesn't go this way if it goes this way i learned something from zalman that takes me a little bit closer to hashem and i made up my mind that i will start keeping chavez a little more seriously or i made up my mind that i'll keep casuals more seriously or i made up my mind that from now on i'll not be a captain i mean when i sit teach people how to do the weekday davanan and here in the renewal show i would do that and show them how to put on that film and to really pay attention uh you know sometimes i teach them how to put on film i say and i don't want you to dumb i just want you to sit and learn from this film what do the film teach you you see i if in short i would say i begin with the experiential side that takes roots in a person's soul and then the likelihood is that somehow something of a lacusa is going to come in and take that person further after uh the ramash that ever passed away in 1994 gimbal thomas what were your feelings your thoughts briefly after the heart attack i was very sad that the rabbit didn't take in you asked me a question about succession that the river didn't take in uh y'all khan and some of the other people and teach them how to learn acquittal and teach them how to also go to the o hill if that's his rabist doing the homework at the oval take some people and show them how to do that he didn't do that on the other hand he did a stroke of genius because he took charisma and created franchises and they covered out the globe and i think that's a lot more american than the thought that i had you know everywhere they're there but i want to say i'm sad that so many of the people who are sleeping are not about hasidim but right they know good message so they give very good with that but when it comes to you know they have a nusselt that sometimes is stupid when i hear uh sometimes and i hear some of the things that schlitten have taken on they're not sophisticated if i had my druthers what to do i would give up all kinds of other things if i could run a seminar with schliehen and tell them how to do it more sophisticated you