Let's Talk The Making Of A Rebbi (feat. Rabbi Yoel Kramer)

And I said to myself, I know Rabbi Kramer is like, you know, big name around here. I didn't know you, but I know you're a big name. I'm gonna leave you a note in your talisman. >> It's gonna be the worst day of your year. I think there's certain times you have to tell a you have to tell the parent. I'm letting you know. And I talk to parents about this. I'm not sanctioning getting drunk. I'm put on any age. >> The salaries have to improve. Rebeam and Moros have to earn more than the cleaning lady in the house. [music] And often she doesn't. >> Okay. As long as Baka doesn't pull this as my quote. [music] >> Welcome to the learning curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing [music] and challenging world. >> So let's tackle the important issues facing families today. I'm Rabbi Yra Garfield, Manal of Yeshiva Toros in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shfeld, Manal of Yeshiva Katana Manhattan, Ro of Bipra Manhattan, director of camp. I also love talking and [music] of course a little bit of fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. [music] This episode of the learning curve is brought to you by Israel Bookshop Publications. Your destination for Purim inspiration and serious resources. To prepare for Purim, explore the Higara in English, Rev Galinsk's powerful insights on Nigillas Esther or why we rejoice, a rich collection from Russia Yeshiva and Rabonim on the essence of Disman. A beautifully presented negillas Esther with Rabbi Zamir Conn and between the lines by Rav Gerson Weiss. Also a timely thoughtful safer called a Torah perspective on wine and alcohol for the kids. 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Tell me the truth by Vishnvki helps you teach Torah truths with confidence. Serious requires serious tools. Find them all at israelbookshops.com. And welcome back to another episode of the learning curve. As we continue on, get closer. I know you said spring is in the air, but h you know, I don't know where you were, Ev Garfield, but it definitely was not in the air in New York in the last while. It's been a very cold, brutal winter. But as we make our way in episode number nine, episode 8 was a unique one. Barm got great feedback. Do mailbags more often and email bags. You know, I want to share just one thing and that is just to show you never know when we're going to play it. one of the recordings that we played of, you know, from our last episode, the person said, "Whoa, I" He wrote to us and he said, "I sent that in a year and a half ago." >> Oh, was that? Yeah, I saw that. That was interesting. >> So, you never know. You never know if you send something into the learning curve when we >> I guess it got got filed away. >> Yeah. It's great. Good stuff. That was an interesting episode. And another thing I've noticed is that we're starting to get letters to the editor in Mishbah magazine that react to things that we write about and talk about. So that's great too. >> Correct. Yeah. It's we're kind to like where where >> joining a little I like it. I got a little beaten up and that's good. It's fun. I can handle >> Which part did you get beaten up >> about about like not caring about gifted children sufficiently? >> Oh yes. Your line about gifted children. You got beaten up over >> Well, okay. I got beaten up over and I don't think we're reading them now about Oh, yes. A letter to the Mishbuck about pole using pull. Yes. >> A mother and a bucker. How horrible it is to use pole as geneva. But yeah, but we're not reading those today. That was >> I don't know why you got beaten up more than me because I guess you were more explicit about it. I also said in the end of the day, use it if you think it's the right thing for your kid. But I guess it was more subtle. Yours was more like I did it. You should do it. You know, so it upset people. >> I'm just going to show off for our watching audience. Go ahead. >> You know, is do you know what this is Garfield? This pen. >> Oh, wow. That looks like a fine pen. >> It's a cross pen. It's actually a very It's a gel pen. It's a very expensive pen that I received from an unbelievable day in Houston. Not just the weather. I was there a couple of weeks ago, you know. Do you have a middle name? Is your middle name start with the letter L? >> It'll be cool. But no, it it's >> I actually thought it did. >> It's Ruben >> because Rab Garfield has a organization called Yeshiva Leadership Group in which he helps coach and helps Manal become better Manalm and 10 of us and it was amazing. >> I was explaining to my wife I was like so where are they from? I was the only New York. >> I was It was New York, St. Louis, Toronto, Philadelphia, Houston, Minnesota, Atlanta. >> I'm missing a couple, right? Yes. I'm missing Silver Spring, Denver. I mean, wow. Right. >> It was a real out of town party. >> Nearly that 10 of us got together in Houston, spent a day discussing in really a great day. So, thank you. This was in early February. Thank you, Regrapha, for facilitating. And I got a pen as a result. and socks. What did the socks say on them? >> Guess what? They're like, "Guess what? This principal is off duty." Yes. >> It's a gift a few years ago and I waited till the end of the year to put them on. I was like so so proud of them. So, I wanted to share that with you guys. >> But enough of the chitchat. Enough of the chitchat. >> Chitchat. >> Our audience is waiting. Yes. >> Okay. Here we go. Question number one. >> Dear TLC, we always do a low-key Super Bowl thing with the cousins. No alcohol, commercials or halftime show. My eighth grade son's rebby offered him $100 this year to skip it. Should I be Mazakim and it will be Sunday night as usual or we hold that he could watch the football on Sunday. Why is it such a big deal? >> So I parents listening to this like guys you know nothing about sports. The Super Bowl was a month ago. Why are you discing this now? Right? So we could be like Gishmak and say what I thought the Super Bowl was like in the summer. I am happy with discussing it after because therefore anything I say is not pointed at any rebby. We're discussing and actually the parent that wrote in this email left the name. So and it was sent in before the Super Bowl. So I actually shared with the parent my opinion that I'm about to share with you now. So I guess this is one of those emails that we got early. So here's my answer about this and it's nuanced as we know all of is an inside joke between me and Rabbi Garfield which is odd that we're asking an inside joke that no one else gets. We'll discuss that on a future episode nuance and black and white but here it goes. Age matters entirely in this conversation. So I want to separate if your child was in 11th grade 12th grade first year matters to a child that is in eighth grade and it matters what yes is in. So let's I'm going to assume the following and of course details matter. I'm going to assume that your child is in a school where most of the kids are watching the Super Bowl. You just said you watch Super Bowl with your family every year. No alcohol. What did you say? No, whatever it is, no commercials, right? >> Yeah. >> Fine. I don't think that it's a eighth grade reby's role and I was an eighth grade rebby for nine years to incentivize a child to do something that his parents are okay with. Now, his parents are fine with him watching the Super Bowl. And this kid's a sports fan. I'm making up this theoretical child, right? So, details will matter. This kid's a sports fan. He's not going to watch the Super Bowl tonight. He's going to give him 100 bucks. He's going to come tomorrow to Yeshiva, get $100, and then the next day watch whatever it is, the Knicks game, you know, go to the baseball game and you have this is not a moment of for an eighth grader. an eighth grader who's a sports fan who watches the Super Bowl every year, you're almost like guilting him and his Rebby who's probably amazing and he loves his Rebi, that's not the age and the moment to be Mhanim not to watch the Super Bowl if his family watches it and his cousins watch it and his friends watch it. So, you're going to win what? You're going to win a feather in your cap to tell I don't mean to be nasty, but you're going to win a feather in your cap to tell your friends you I got four kids in my class. Yeah. What do the next night? Oh, the next night they were actually on Netflix watching this or X, right? It's not the role of the Rebi in eighth grade and it's not the Muckham. I want to compare it and contrast it. The 12th grader in Yeshiva who is making tremendous strides in stiging and is thinking, you know what, is sports that important in my life which an eighth grader can't think about. It's beyond his maturity level. You know what? Maybe I'm going to stop following sports. I don't know. It's a battle. Yes. No. Yes. No. And he said, "You know what? I'm not going to watch Super Bowl this year." And his rebi incentivized it not to watch Super Bowl this year. Gorgeous. You know, I know when Rabbi Centers >> whole major thing >> leaving out the stick and the fanfare and the fundraising because he's been doing this for 20 years. Do you know how amazing that is that he's a first year met guys in which means it's 2:00 in the morning. So these kids were going to hotels to watch the Super Bowl the whole night and instead >> for the first time in their life >> they gave up the Super Bowl >> for Tyra. >> It's a tremendous muckham of stiging of growth I think that is beautiful. But I think as an eighth grader if in a >> balabat shashiva you know I'm not talking yeshiv where no one watches the Super Bowl and this kid really his parents don't want him and they call up the rebi. I'm talking parents are okay with him watching. The kid is watching. There's no commercial. There's nothing user. He's not watching the halftime show. He's Why do you think I I would ask you the following question to say about this? >> Go ahead. >> I was Yeah, maybe this is >> Yeah, go ask me a guy a question. Let's go. Ari, go ahead. >> Why are you doing this? >> Go Garfield, you're the eighth grade. You gave this kid 100 bucks not to watch Super Bowl. Why? >> Okay, as long as doesn't pull this as my quote for the article. But with that proviso, I'm doing it because we live in a world that has forgotten what it means to be a yid. A yin is not involved in the culture. >> I love it. I love when you get older >> theatrical. Yeah. That's what I know you're just talking is not involved in the culture. It's become like kosher. It's not kosher. And if we're not mak the children young to have they'll never get it. And I am their eighth grade rabbi. They're going off to yeshiva. And they need to know thus is and thus isn't. And the Super Bowl is narish kite. It's not a mitzvah to watch it. I don't mind if they want to watch football once in a while. That's fine. But the Super Bowl has become like almost a mitzvah to do like an Indian and it's not and I'm teaching them that. And if it's not for me, who's going to do it? Who in this child's life is ever going to have them know that this is not our >> Well done by the way. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> I take everything back. >> So what do you say? >> My job as a rebby is not it's giving over Ashkafa. And this is a pitkaf that the Super Bowl is not where Bentora should be. It's not the place for Bento. The place for Ben is in the base. All the hype and all the culture and all the it's not for us. It's part of the gulus. I'm >> not even pushing harshly on your dasha, but this is knowing your >> By the way, anytime you need one of those, just press the button. I'm ready. >> Yeah. This is knowing your clientele. That's why I said this is very specific. But um >> but even that tall >> whose parents his parents are watching Super Bowl this kid is he's a kid let the kid remember we had a miller at the the event in Houston tonight thought he was talking about the regression mill very rv and really royer in Detroit and he said the big and he spoke not about the soul but he said extra nights right and pushing the kids to learn and and marathon >> let children be children right >> he's a child he's an eighth greater who is doing wonderful in yeshiva hopefully, right? And you're going to incentivize him not to watch. So what's going to happen, right? What's going So his brother is watching, his father's watching, everyone's watching, he's going to go, he can't learn for four hours, he's going to learn for a half hour, go to the gym to play basketball. Again, if you're going to tell me that $100 is going to change the kid's life, I'm in. It's not. He's an eighth grader. He's not a 12th grader. And I'm passionate about this because I find that we sometimes asim we overreach our lane. We overreach our lane of where we belong in a child's life. And I think that you know there's a difference. I can I tell you what I did in my yeshiva because I spoke about the Super Bowl. How's that? So I'll pro put put the proof put put my >> Yeah. Let's hear your money where your mouth. >> I walked into the older grades during the Super Bowl air of the Super Bowl. You're doing that in your current place like in in the days. >> I said and I and I put on a show like I you know a little bit dramatic and sticky like I sometimes do. I said guys I want to tell you something. This past Thursday night >> I stayed up the whole night learning and the were like [laughter] I'm like and I went through I'm like I'm like sister was all I'm like you don't know me by now? My gosh. I said and I went through every single sift in I checked every shak every taz we shrew a dear shoe I used safari I did the whole and I said I couldn't find the following phrase lero super I said I found and I think super seder this is my rebby joke super people confuse super seder with the seder fine I said there's no watch and those of you whose parents say Zubil is not for us. Beautiful and that's your home and that's your value and you shouldn't feel any pressure to watch because your friends silly. You don't watch Super Bowl and you don't have that in your home. Great. If your parents are allowing you to watch Super Bowl tonight, that's your parents decision. That's your family's decision. I spoke to them about the halftime show. >> And I said the halftime show is and it's trust and it's perverted. And I said, I don't even matter if it's a male singer or not a male singer. It's trust. And and I said to them, I I said to them, "The problem is, let's say you're in a home at the showing, the halftime show. You shouldn't watch it. What do you do?" >> Well, you jump right out of your lane there, Rabbi. >> Oh, boy. >> Look at you. >> I said, "You're going to make a against your parents. That's inappropriate." I'm not, you know, I said, "So, go to the bathroom. Do your math homework. Do math homework." I And I spoke about if you really care. I said, "If you really care this," I said, "If you" I spoke about my a family member of mine that doesn't shake women's hands in meetings, right? And he doesn't want to cause discomfort or embarrass them. So, he always walks into every meeting holding something, both hands. So, he just he bows and he says, "Hello." I said, "Think about it. Don't insult. You're not going to hurt. You're not going to insult people in your family." I said, "I hope your family isn't watching the half the show, but some people don't know or they don't care. They think they're sticky." >> So, that was my speech, but I think we have to be stay in our lane. And I said, I think Missa is different. I think 11th grade is different. Bismet is different. This eighth grade Balabata kid who was going to go to the nickname tomorrow night and was who's going to watch every Mechan this year. >> It's a feather in the Reb's cap and no more. >> Right. Are you're going to leave it there because I've done my part. I've said my piece and you certainly have said enough on your side. I'm not you know here. Okay. Ask me the next question. >> Question number two. This is for obviously for next year Super Bowl. We have to put out. >> We got to get parents ready. >> Yeah. Question number two. Here we go. A lot of what? Oh, this is a PUM question. Beautiful. So this is a perm question which is coming up. So I think it would be almost borderline inappropriate for us not to discuss if we're discussing incredibly hopefully important in so it's an important day. It's a complicated day. It's I host the pormuda for many years for and my daughter says this matters guys. My son my son's shar and every year my daughter who now is seven says ah but please not this year. No please not this year. So um there we go. >> Yeah. Dear TLC, a lot of what passes passes both, right? >> Yeah. In the yeshiva world on Purim is totally against our family's hashkafa. Adults enabling all sorts of bad behavior. Kids acting in a way that's totally and completely unsafe. It feels like our goes completely out the window. one because of peer pressure and two because of if the yeshiva is giving the boys a list of homes to go to and an expectation that they will collect then it's sanctioned and what we we value has much less weight what can we do so this parent sounds like is focusing a little bit on the collecting part of purim there is a whole gamut there's collecting and there's drinking right now so Garfield you know world is your oyster you can take this direction however you go ask me what is a parent What is how does a parent approach Purum when yeshivas it seems yeshivas are more flexible and into the mitzvah >> and the parents a lot of parents are not and are struggling with and go >> wow yeah it's a hard one what's coming to mind is that this is really the true test of parenting when you have all these things stacked against you right you're trying to give your forget perm for a second let's take it out of that and then >> we speaking to An age. Are we speaking to an age? >> I assume the kids 18 to 21. I assume. >> Oh, you're going there. No, not seventh. No, because seventh eighth thing. I don't know what age they I I don't know. I figured it was older. >> Houston kids, seventh, eighth graders don't come collecting knocking on my >> I've actually spoken against it a lot. So, it's certainly not institutionally done. >> And you're the local seventh and eighth grader. So, >> yeah, it's not institutionally done. It could be someone's collecting for some organization to get it. It very much is institutionally done in Pacific not schools but it's >> okay let's take seven eighth grade I could talk to that grade too you know >> let's talk both >> okay so my point is let's take a step back and say what do you do when you have values that are important to you but not accepted by the community you live in now that could ex that could express itself in many ways you could live in Houston Texas and want your child to grow up a certain way but live in a culture where kids are a little different and that's acceptive you could live in a place that like likewood and want your kids to grow up. I mean, it could happen in a lot of different scenarios. In fact, I would think most often parents have values that are important to them that aren't necessarily shared by everybody. So, how do you get that across in a meaningful way? And and the I would say the proof of the level of your success is when there's mounting pressure and does your ch how does your child address that? Now, I'm not beating up a parent, but you can't wake up on pumm. My point is this is not a purum problem. This is a reflection of the greater values, relationship, situation that your child's getting. Specifically, when it comes to this, obviously the important thing is that you express your values to your child. But a person has to also understand that a kid is a kid and it's very hard not to be normal. Now I you know I would hope that normal doesn't mean doing highly dangerous and key crazy things but if your family has a policy that you know you're you have certain areas of sensitivity that this is violating you have to understand that your kid has a right and a natural need and desire to be normal. So you have to respect that in the conversation. So to tell a kid you can't go anywhere you sit in your room like come on that's unrealistic. So, you have to work with your child in an open way and have real conversations about how we're going to handle this. Maybe they could go, "How do you ha behave in a house? What's comfortable for you and what's not?" But I would say that if your kid totally violates your values and like knows you don't like drinking and they get crazy drunk or you don't like wildness and they're that tells you something about the whole year. That's not really speaking in my opinion only to perm. I see you disagree. Well, the people watching can see you disagree. the people listening. >> I didn't see one word. >> Right. Right. But that's okay. I like disagreement. Go ahead, Rabbi Shfeld. And what do you disagree about? >> I think that you're being too paleo in what the day is. In other words, Purim is a day that has been and I host a purse every year and I'm not we could discuss what we do personally, but I don't want to go there yet. Purim is a day that is dominated by Yeshiva Bakram. What I mean is it's the day they look forward to the whole year. It's on their calendar. >> Seventh and eighth graders. >> No. >> And on this system in the Morisha circles, yes. And yes. Okay. >> But I want to discuss the 18-year-old first because I think it's >> right to the 18-year-old Purim is the most exciting day of the year. I think as a parent who's a straight laced parent or in their mind the normal parent, I don't want my son to drink and it's a and he can't right. It's going to be the worst day of your year. I think there's certain times you have tell you have to tell the parent. I'm letting you know and I talk to parents about this. I'm not sanctioning getting drunk on any age. It's up to your boy and the yeshiva. But that parent that says to me, "My son's friends are getting drunk. He's in a his rebing him 18 to 20." Again, age matters. 9th grade. Let's discuss a bismetric boy. First year mish second bismetric. Mrs. Smith, your son's going to get drunk. Repeat after me. He's going to get drink on par. I'm not again I want to repeat. I'm not sanctioning but that reality >> drinking and drinking. There's levels of drinking >> and it's going to be the hardest day of the year for you >> and it's going to be miserable. Period. End of sentence. >> Yeah. I'm not >> Yeah. One second. I'm not I'm not done. No, I'm not I'm not saying therefore throwing the towel. >> Okay. >> I'm not saying to speak to your son about I know parents that put Air Tags on their kids and put them >> That's a good idea. >> Good idea. Right. I'm not saying to talk to your son about >> crazy but a good idea. >> Yeah. But it's crazy until it's 2 in the morning and you don't know where your son is and you find out he's sleeping on your rabby's couch. Never happened with me. Really? Don't. We don't put it. We don't put air tags on our kids. But um you're talking to a father whose son last year, can I say this? Yeah. Wasn't drinking, you know. >> No. No. Dressed up as a chicken in 10th grade. Great chicken outfit onesie and then rented a chicken and walked around with it on a leash on Pum and then gave it back all fed it. No Gald. Anyways, he was my son last year. This year he wants to do a rabbit. We're trying to avoid that. Anyways, but I think a it's going to be a horrible day for you. B there are conversations you I talk to my own children who I have a son in third medish, a son in secondh 11th grade. I am in the throws of purum that right you know tinus Esther like talk to them responsibly. Don't say oh what you doing I'm against but if you do much your empty stomach make sure to eat. Please don't drink schnaps. Schnaps is very dangerous and if you're going to drink Schnaps have a bottle of two or three or four shots and then keep it there and especially the first night of perm second like have real conversations with them in the I know this is like a podcast that we're discussing drinking and it's like a dangerous conversation but have real conversations in the with your children to try to make them have a day that isn't as horrible for you that's in the bmedish realm you know in the elementary school realm let's discuss hopefully they're not drinking in seventh and eighth grade. That's dangerous. That's horrible. That's parents that give kids to drink in elementary school and in young high school ages. >> But everyone's doing it. It's possible panting. There's the collecting part where the kids, they go around and they get into limousines, right? And they rent, right? And there's a lot of that in in in most yeshiva towns. There's a lot of that. And that's where I go back to what you said and that is I think it's unfair of a parent as you said his whole class is collecting or most of his class is collecting and to tell him no you can't get into a limousine on PUM but you could tell him if I see you with a cigarette I'm going to come and pick you up and take you home in front of all your friends I don't care if I hear that you had a cigarette if I hear that you touched alcohol you're going to stay in our house the rest of porn and not leave the house that's you know you're supposed to parent within the understanding that Purim is not a good day for parents. Parents, >> I don't accept what you're saying, but we could disagree. I don't accept it. I think that every day I think every day is a good day for parents and every day is an opportunity for parents to parent. And if you >> I didn't say it's not I didn't say that it's not a good day for parents, meaning it's a really hard day. It's avid in the world of what kids are doing. It's av >> I don't agree. I think parents have to parent their kids through hard times. When your kid fails a test, when the kid loses the championship game, it's a hard time to parent when your kid breaks his leg. >> One second. This parent doesn't want their kid getting in that limo to go collecting for >> they live in a reality. I don't want my kid breaking his leg, but he broke it. And now what? He can't go on the trip. >> So, I have to be a parent. It's difficult, but I have to be a parent. >> You're not letting him in the limo. I say that. I'm just saying difficulty is part of parenting life and you have to understand the situation and engage your your children and and don't I don't think I don't give anyone a pass as a parent to say oh it's hard just let it happen. No, you got to talk about it like you were saying. You could talk about the parameters of it and find obur and explain to your kid what about the limousine bothers you and then you got to work it. You got to work the problem together. >> I'm not giving I'm not giving anyone a pass. What I'm doing is I'm really highlighting I guess is the right word. I am highlighting it is a hard super challenging day. Don't think you can just well this is our family. It's I want to move the goalposts. That's what I'm saying. Purim is one of those days where I think you have to move the goalpost as parents. I don't I think parents don't appreciate the excitement that builds a lot of the larger more exciting is yeshivas for purim in thetick of purim you know and the purim play you know at home the mothers are busy with the fathers don't even know it's purim they're at work they don't these kids are busy with their costumes and what do you yes I was one year I'm going to T4 this lucky enough not to have a purtik in yeshiva a purik gets me nervous I find it to be just heeras for no and it just causes the custodians almost like a after they clean up the mess. So every year I try to stop it in my yeshiva. So one year I said here's the deal. Take the best ball player in the eighth grade. He's going to hand me a one-on-one. If he beats me, we have perm. There was no perm that year. >> That's great. We actually have the kids do it through him so that it's under control. Meaning you could do perm stick but the rebby is >> also and that way it keeps it reasonable. But I'm saying I I think parents have to appreciate like don't be the killjoy. >> It is the most exciting day of the year and it is built up for weeks in bmedish in mifa. The costumes which we find so oh my gosh are nothing. Which onesie all onesies which onesie you going to wear or you which punk you going to dress up like it's a real exciting day for them. Lean into that, appreciate it, and move the goalposts enough that you can grin and bear it and be soful a day and let your kids still have his day within the edge of your comfort zone. >> Yeah. I would say one more thing, and I reacted in my mind when you said, "If I see a cigarette, I'm going to like I think you have to let your kids make mistakes, too." You know, PERM is certainly a day of mistakes. >> Ouch. Ouch. So, you're going to let your kid in eighth grade get drunk on perm? Let them make mistakes. >> But if they do, understand that people make mistakes. >> Yeah. I'm not talking at all. We're not talking about to do for eighth grade drinks. >> Whatever. Whatever the decision is. I'm sure I don't speak for you, but I've certainly regretted certain things that have happened over perm over my life. Nothing, you know, life-threatening or anything, but like, you know, and that's okay, too. Parents, especially if it's your oldest kid and they make some bad decisions, it's okay. That's part of the experience. >> You're already prepping for the the postp podcast. >> I'm just saying like, you know, it's not the worst. I agree. to you. I let my kid go. >> All right. Wonderful. >> So now it's that we move on to our spotlight question um the week and this week is you know usually we say it's a coven and honor. This week I think we call it aus and that is we have joining us the mechanic of Rabbi Yoel Kramer um who has spent decades in in KO as a girls principal the seminary opening seminaries and for the last more years than I am on this earth um and running um a very very special program called the merkaz which trains the rebane and most of rebane in America today are either went through that program program or have learned from their program. So, we're very excited soon to welcome Reb Kramer. But first, Re Garfield, we're going to read the question. And here it goes. [music] Dear TLC, next year on my son's Yeshiva, there are two parallel classes. One taught by a veteran Rebby and one very new Rebi. The veteran Rebby is known for his classroom management and is well regarded. The younger Rebby may be missing experience, but he's very enthusiastic and energetic. My son will be in fifth grade and beginning Gamarra, so it's a big year. Is there one type that's objectively a better educator? So, in discussing types of rebum, um, we could we could get into the weeds of this parent, you know, but I I think this is a time to go take a step back and as opposed to addressing a specific parent, let's talk about let's make Rabbame great. Not again, but you know, let's once again make great. So really it is a covenant for us to welcome to the learning curve Rabbi Yol Kramer. First of all, Rabbi Kramer, we had some technical issues tonight. So we thank you for bearing with us and welcome to the learning curve. >> My pleasure. >> Rabbi Kramer, we go back in a way that you don't know. So I'm going to tell you a number of years. I'm going to say 20 about 24 years ago was my first Tormosaura convention. And I came to the Thomasa convention as a secondyear teacher with no my training was in counseling. I have a degree in counseling but I didn't have any formal educational experience and uh training and I fell in love with it. I haven't missed one since. So I've been going for a few years to the term convention because the idea of getting trained and reflective practice and best practices just blew me away. Sunday morning it was time to go. It was this is in the frier talk, you know, zik z of whatever the right uh lion is. And I'm like, I can't stop. I was living in Atlanta at the time. I was a nth grade rabbi, second year teaching. I was like, I can't stop. This is amazing. And then I saw your talis bag said, yo Kramer, you left it against Rabbi Ryback or no, probably Sham Striker's uh cry. I don't remember it back then. Probably Sham Striker. You left your talis bag in the dining room. And I said to myself, I know Rabbi Kramer is like, you know, big name around here. I didn't know you, but I know you're a big name. I'm gonna leave you a note in your talisman. This is a true story. >> This is a 100% true story. I'm [laughter] gonna leave you a note and ask you to call me so we could discuss how I could keep staging as a rebby. >> So you are you are >> I've always been me. I've been me [laughter] since I was a little kid. So I wrote the note, listen. And then I forgot about it because I went home and life went on. Three weeks later, I got a call from Rabbi Kramer. I'm like, "What? Who? What? Who?" And you said, "I found a note. You was kind enough to call me and we had the conversation and you gave me a piece of advice that I still use to this day." >> Before you say the advice, Rabbi Garfield, Rabbi Kramer, do you have any of this [laughter] story? >> Let me hear the advice. >> Yeah. Yeah. How do you remember this? This is a long time ago. Literally, I think 20 whatever 25 or so years ago. >> What was the advice? The advice was I said I live in a place where there's not a lot of professional development opportunity. It's like you know I have a manal but he wasn't so into giving me feedback to put it mildly and he said invite friends and colleagues and visitors into your classroom and let them talk to you of what you're doing and that way you get feedback from your colleagues from people visiting and you could grow that way and I've been doing that not only as a rebby I did it for years as a rebby whenever a mechanic was visiting or a friend I said come in they taught me so much that I never you know would have thought out I I still know of the lessons a lot of them taught me. And now listen to this. As a manal, I do the craziest thing. Once a year, I bring in some guy I respect or a woman and I pay them money. I say, "Just come for the day and whatever you see, tell me. >> Isn't that great?" I still do it. It's the best advice ever. So great. Great. >> Thank you. It's been years. I still do it. I'm Rabbi Simler is coming to this year. I picked someone who I respect. We had ice. >> He's never chosen me, but okay. Yeah. >> Rel Zimmerman, Rab Idstein. I I different over the years, literally different people. Kami Levatansky >> and say just tell me what you see, you know, just spend the day just look around and they give me great advice. So, thank you, Rabbi Kramer, for that. >> So, Kramer, can you first give, you know, our listening audience and our watching audience a little bit of, I guess, a background of what is the Merc, what it is that this is? You've been doing this for 46 years, you know, kahara for many years. >> Yeah. Amen. >> What is it? What's the maraz? >> The maraz is a uh a year year training session. 30 sessions meeting once a week. Happens to be Wednesday nights. Right now I'm free because I I'm very proud. A son who's following in my footsteps is giving tonight's session. >> Beautiful. >> So um it meets once a week for an hour and 45 minutes. two hours, no break, and it draws for anyone in the greater New York area. We find a central spot. Right now, we meet in Staten Island, and um I could say almost nobody's ever dropped out and it's constrained for them because they most most people travel at least an hour one way. >> Whose brainchild was it? >> Mine. Mine. [laughter] >> What were you doing at the time when you started Americas? >> I was a principal of a girl's high school. I it evolved. Let me tell you how it evolved. I was a big fan of staff development. So, uh we would have monthly meetings that the staff love to come to. Now, that's very odd, isn't it? [laughter] >> Yes, it is. >> First of all, I scheduled it midday, so it was on school time, not on their time. >> I covered the classes in very uh creative ways. That's a separate discussion. And I didn't do more than 10 minutes talking. and the rest of it was staff development. Each time there was an issue. So once they they were having disciplined problems with one of their classes. So I said to them, you know what? Let's go upstairs to a classroom. I'll be the teacher and you be the students and you do whatever whatever happens and let's let's do it that way. >> The role play. >> It was such a kaki success >> uh that they said could we have more of this? So I took another topic and another topic and over the years 30 topics and that's basically the present mira. >> Wow. >> Of course I've refined it and developed it and masculine it if there's such a word for the rebum but um that's how it evolved. >> Beautiful. >> So let me ask I guess a real like bird's big picture. What makes a great rebby? How >> what makes a great rebby? Uh I think there are there are first of all there are a lot of greats. Let's make that clear. I just went through a medical issue. So I had to check out doctors and everyone said this is the great the best the greatest doctor and uh a very wise uh friend said to me you know there are a lot of greats. There's not one great doctor. There are a lot of greats. There are a lot of ways that somebody can be a great rebby and they don't all necessarily fit the mold. And that's something that I I learned through the years that everybody can't be my my mold. I encourage the people that I train. Stop cloning Kramer because if if you're not Kramer, you can't clone him. Exactly. But there are certain users. I think the four most important users are loving kids and people liking people. Liking kids. Secondly, I I think a passion to help and give and influence lives. Third, a healthy person, [clears throat] >> emotionally healthy person, not egocentric. Their Arabane will come in there and they're they're performing, but they're they're looking at themselves, not at the kids. And [clears throat] finally, growing growing people. I'm a massive fan, as Rabbi Garfield will will attest, that you you have to keep growing. You can't otherwise the finest people stagnate. I think one of the reasons I I learned it is because I my shortest amount of time in any position was 35 years, >> which means by the way I consider that part of the success. If you like in a marriage, if you you stay with it, you work it, you work out the kinks and and you become better and better. But the challenge is to not stagnate. Those staff meetings were very draining because I keep coming up with exciting interesting ideas. >> Do you think is it unfair to say the following stereotype that Rebeam as an entity don't love staff development? >> Right. And for good reason. Why? >> Because they're boring. They're boring. [laughter] They're boring. The principal pontificates. He talks and talks. He reads through all Let me tell you what a fascinating staff meeting, probably the one I was most excited about. There's parent teacher conference, right? So the I I I would come in and read for a half hour all the things to remember when everybody you heard it last year and the year before and the year before that. One year I said to me, let let's be creative. I sat down. I wrote down five classic parent teacher conference scenarios. Uh one was the parent who talks too much, the teacher who talks too much, the parents who get into a fight in front of you, etc. I chose the 10 most talented people on the staff. I assigned each pair, parent and teacher. They came in and acted out. I I primed them. >> They came primed each one for about five minutes and then the staff reacted to them. >> Isn't that great? Yeah. >> Isn't that great? Isn't that great? So, when you go through a staff meeting like that, you you you're not bored and you want more. >> They they didn't leave me alone. They kept saying, "Give us more." And that's >> Have you seen since you've been in your positions for so long, you must have seen Rebeam or Moa's age to a point where it's just hard for them to pull it. they just don't have it. They just don't have it in them. And like how do you manage that or how do you, you know, try to inspire them when they're just sort of spent >> by doing creative things like this once they're every month? I probably did about seven staff meetings a year. You don't do it in L and Tish. You don't do it in in Sivon. if they're stimulated. When I left the position, they made gave me a tribute and most of the letters that they wrote said, "You excited me and helped me grow as a teacher." That was the biggest compliment. >> You Rabbi Kramer, you >> I I often when I train principles, I make a big S and I say the principal's job there. There are two parts of principal job. One is the idea is striving, striving, pushing them to be more. And the other is stroking. And you need that balance. The principle who pushes and stresses and strives can often be a monster, >> right? >> It has to be balanced with stroking. And the stroker is a teddy bear. So they like him after a while, but they say, "Oh, come on now." you know do something >> you know you know Rab Kramer you've been running the Americas for 46 years are your lessons the same I don't mean to say in terms of stagnation I don't mean like that what I mean is do you find >> have the needs changed >> right that the needs of today's dharma today's dar mean >> massive massive massive >> you give three examples of what's changed >> three examples of what's changed >> and how did you notice they changed like you're doing this every year it's so hard >> okay so that that's also you have to remain I I mean if I told you my age and yet >> all I know is that you're 46 because you've been doing this for 46 years. >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That you have to be you have to be you have to be in touch. I speak to the reame that I train. I get feedback. I visit schools. So so I'm I'm as as reasonably caught up as possible. >> So tell me a difference. What has changed overall big picture in in 1980 to 2026 other than no hitting, >> right? Kids are more distractable. >> So are >> right there's a massive amount of of entitlement and really for entitlement. Yeah. Yeah. Parents are are much more in the picture. Uh I feel very often >> is that a good thing or bad? >> I think it's a negative. >> Really? >> It's overdone. [clears throat] Like that sample question that you we started out with. >> You know, like when I I sent you this question today and you're like, I don't like that question. Come on. >> Come on. Leave us. Just let the kid go through and and and most of the time it goes well. Who knows which is better? So that's a perfect example to you of a parent overanalyzing and overthinking, >> right? And there is no one answer because it's a balance. What's the kid? Who will the kid and what's the social life of the child? Forget about the education. You want you want to take him move him every year back and forth to which teacher fits him and where are his friends and where's his social lives. >> So how is the training adapted to these changes? like what could you do to prepare rebayam today so that they could deal with distracted entitled what was the third one I forgot >> distracted entitled and and overbearing parents >> I I talk about it I talk about it >> right probably in 1980 you didn't have to give relationships with parents was basically report cards >> right I I don't think I even spoke about it >> you understand that that my education was in the 40s >> in the n 1940s Okay. So, it was a total I I'm really basically seeing four different duras. Mine >> who are your role models? Who did you >> who did you learn by in >> mostly Rav Hutner? Mostly Rautner. So, I I took a lot from him and rejected certain aspects. My major mantra is you're not teaching subjects, you're teaching children. I you cannot go through a a week without meeting privately with students. I think that you have a plan book of what you're going to do each day. You must have a plan of which student you're going to see. Let's say toast toast. So you see three children a week for a 10 getting to know you 15 minute and go through the whole class the first x weeks >> and then and do a second cycle and a third cycle and I do it in my teacher training program. There's no such thing as coming to my program without coming to my house and sitting with me for an hour and and at on the way out I I say to them how do you feel? They say you know I really feel cared about. I said that's the way the kid feels. So if you you develop that kind of yahas then then then you've got it. >> I want to be I want to I'm going to put on a parent hat now and I'm going to push back. Parents are listening to this episode and they're going to say we're listening to this podcast because we're involved parents and we're caring parents. How could Rab Kramer say that we're overbearing? Isn't that the goal of a parent is to be involved and not just hand off my kid to the school and to just pick him up. What do you mean? I care about everything about my child. I'm the best parent. >> Yeah, but how many times did you call the school and the parent a week? Okay, that's okay. You know, h hands [clears throat] off. Be involved. If you really want to be involved, okay, here let's move. We talked about teacher training, teacher training and growth. There is no profession in America where you can stay in that profession without doing inservice development. you lose your license, your law license, your doctor's license, unless you go back and that has to be instituted in America >> and it's not great. It's not great. I >> I'll tell you what, when I first came on, I was I was a principal at 27, a bit too young. There was a rebby there in the school who was a man of 60. >> Which is >> this was Prospect Park and uh okay, the whole the whole evolution there. Um, he was a man of 60 and I remember suggesting something to him and he said to me, "You're telling me, you know, I'm 40 years older than you." I wanted to, but I didn't say it to him. He said, "I've been teaching 40 years." I said, "No, you've been teaching one year, 40 times." >> Wow. >> That's the point. So it a rebby cannot he cannot live with himself if he comes in and stays without doing anything to go himself. Now I turn to the balabata world and I say what brings the lawyer and the doctor to those inservice courses rellicensing and a higher salary. Why don't you set up a fund and every rebby who goes for some kind of inservice >> amazing >> gets gets a bonus and his school gives him an extra bonus which is incremental as he develops >> that's the answer so parent instead of making all the phone calls you know put >> when you started working on this was there any push back like we do what our rebies did we have what is this training you know they didn't training back in Europe this narish kite is this madnisha did you have any push back like that and did you speak to any gdole is from that d from the 80s who like spoke to this as its >> okay so it's a it's a great question I I didn't but I I knew I was right but I still remember a ter convention I still remember convention where the noinska zatsal was sitting up there on the Thursday night and someone asked the question. Should the safer of olive bays follow uh the misura of black and white or should it have colors? The misura and the noaminska said msra. >> He said do what works. >> Right. >> Right. Straight from the Novam Minska. He was he was delicious. Abrahammer one one of your isms there's like there's certain like I I took the meas like every rebby I think I took the meas and Kramer has been incredibly helpful in finding amazing rebiva for me in Shiva Manhattan there's an ism like if I asked the rebim in America today tell me the number one thing like Kramer taught you about walking in the first day you know >> I know what it is the >> the presence don't smile till right >> Kramer I So I so don't smile till that's like the quote of Rabbi no it's not no it's not on the on the contrary on the contrary I tell smile the first day if you have presence you can smile the first day and if you don't then there's no problem because you won't have the job [laughter] >> Kramer do you scream like do you ever tell someone who tries to apply like I'm sorry but I don't see a future for you or do you feel like you could train most people >> or just to add even more painful what happens if someone joins your and it's a whole year and it's an investment and it's money and at the end of the year you know you know this guy ain't cut out for the job that's a what happens okay so that has only happened probably three or four times in the thousands really there are thousand I have a list right now of over 2,000 alumni And there are many that I don't have. It's it's barely happened. Why? You noticed before when you asked me what what are the axioms of a good rebi that I didn't say presence. Now it it is a very important thing that there is that first impression that is crucial. But what if the guy is a meek sweet booby? Now what what are we going to do? You know what? There's place for him too in primary out of town in this nice sweet. Now you notice I I made two variables there, right? >> Where and and with whom, >> right? >> Well, you take take So my job when I meet with them one on- one is to guide them. I took a guy who wanted to be an eighth grade rebby and would never have made it and he's now one of the leading first grade reb in in in Lakewood. How does that conversation go? That's a hard conversation for someone who says, "I want to be rebi teaching typhus." You tell him, right? >> The mistake you made is is to use the word conversation because it's conversations. I develop a relationship and when he sees me as as a as a father really caring about him, then he says, "I I did it this morning on the phone. I'm I'm working on a guy who's a schleer who's a schleer. And and we had a long talk." and he says, "I'm hearing you. I'm hearing you and let me digest it. I'll call you back and we work on it." >> I have found a common thing that rebu in coal say they only want to teach eighth grade like or you know and how do you respond to that because I feel like you don't know nothing but like you can't convince him. >> I well part of that >> it's a great question. I I just say did you ever take economics in high school? There's a law of supply and demand. >> So this is the supply. What do you think the demand will be? But it's a major problem and I I know of probably 20 25 alumni that are still sitting around in Lakewood waiting for them. The wor the worst danger by the way is the Shermish. That's >> it gives you a false sense of a job. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Exactly. So, Remember, what what is your your advice to a parent that says, "You know what? I'm listening to Kramer talk and he's talking about a Rebby that has, you know, loves the kids and yada yada yada." And my son's rebi is just eh and he's not connecting. He's okay. He's one of those. It doesn't matter the age, you know, he didn't take the merc. So, you know, he doesn't he he doesn't know how to walk in the wrong way and put on the Broadway show, the whole, you know, the whole and my son is just it's February. His rebby is boring. His lessons are haphazard. Now, why isn't he fired? Because he's a thousand reasons. Maybe he's out of town or so it's hard to find something to replace him. >> Oh, easy there. Sean fell easy. >> Maybe he's related or maybe he's just, you don't fire him because he's just what do I do as a parent as a you know, I don't want my son to miss fifth grade, eighth grade, third grade. Back back to my suggestion before, if the parent has has the money, say, "I'm ready to sponsor the that reby's inservice training. It's a seruitous way of >> insulting. That's not insulting. >> It's reality. >> Wow. >> Maybe a mentor or like a coach is a better way than like going >> okay class, you know?" >> But here here it's really the principal's job. >> Yeah. the principal's job to um as I did to train and and develop them or here and there to filter to filter. >> Do you see a difference? I'm curious. Let's leave out of town is one. you know the difference between different communities within the tri there are guys that you'll say you you won't work in lake you won't work in Muny you won't work >> come to the March 11th session >> which is there are three folk guide to the course by the way let me just um >> yeah the first six sessions is the reby's projection and [clears throat] not just the presence but also the room the room is a factor I I have a fascinating story about a uh I I'll try to make it quick. A principal, an out of town principal said, "I have a wonderful eighth grade revy first year, but it's not going. >> Uh come down and just just tell me that I'm right in sending him away." I come down to the city and I said, "Where's the classroom?" Well, it's not in the classroom. It's in the trailers in the back. >> Got it. So, >> I go to the trailer. I I can't tell you what the trailer was like. And it also joined another trailer in which an exciting Rebby was teaching in the other room. The guy had no chance whatsoever of ever getting it. Uh I came back. I said, "Why do you do that to him? Take the best Rebby and put him in the trailer, the most experienced, and give him a classroom that >> it's a ghetto of Kevin." >> Right. >> Okay. And that was it. I never checked to find out what had happened. Fast forward 20 years. I go to a of a close friend. I walk in and they introduce me to the mutin. And the mutin says, "I know you." I said, "Really?" He said, "You once came to my to observe me in that city." I said, "Oh, yes. Oh, yes." He said, "What are you doing?" He said, "I'm principal of the school." >> What do you say to that? >> Wow. They took him out. They gave him a decent classroom. He's now the man of a very well-known mid. >> Wow. >> That's the first folky. The second, we have eight sessions on a lesson. On a lesson, knowing what a lesson that there's an objective to a lesson. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And and and [clears throat] I didn't mention before the change nowadays active participation. That's a I have a session next week that's like 60 ideas of active participation [clears throat] think pair share you know that keeps kids moving and deals with it with the new derm the last 10 sessions which is my favorite is the child the child child development such the first session of that getting back to your question is listing different communities and telling them what do you think if you were teaching in here different countries different communities ities and within a city with with within a Lakewood different schools and how they were different and the challenges is striking. I beg them to go out of town but I'm I'm not especially succ why why do you beg them to go out of town? [laughter] >> You have an hour because because life because life I my own children I push them to to have a daughter who's a principal in Cleveland. It's a different life and the discipline is different. The kids are more able, classes are not as crowded. It there's a lot of factors. >> I I have one more question and then I'll let Rab Garfield you know ask his last question summit. My question is what would be your sales pitch? I'm a single obviously Rab your whole life is training is a love for I'm 28 years old I live for five years. Should I go into and I I you know and I say you know what here's a Kramer. I meet him at he's he's related from both sides and I say Kramer I I the last 10 sessions I undress I undress and I and I show them there are times I I've changed also the past years I I start crying I start crying I I tell them about the negatives of my own I had a challenge as a child and and no one was there that's by the way what's what's motivating me and keep it and continues this passion because I say you gave me that peekle because you want me now to influence other people and and I show them the beauty of it, the excitement of it. They often say to me, they say we can't get over your passion at your age >> and that comes and that that's addictive. It's infective and it's addictive. My brothers are both lawyers and they're both successful lawyers and they're wonderful people and I have sisters some in and some not in I can't imagine waking up to another profession. Where where's your >> Exactly. Exactly. And my my biggest sim is that every one of my children is in and masters. >> Wow. That that's that's that's that's the ultimate >> wonderful. >> And then you look back and the knock just this afternoon a graduate of my school class of 1969. >> Oh my. >> How old would she be? >> 57 years old. >> Okay. Lives in Edisro and was at the door this afternoon. They're here came with her husband and the knock to the children. Oh, it's >> unbelievable. Um the last question is looking to the future you know we're talking about AI we're talking about all the distractions and you know how do you feel when you look at the landscape do you feel optimistic or do you feel concerned optimistic? No I I'm [clears throat] generally an optimistic person. No no there there's more training there there's more professionalism hopefully. We didn't talk about the salaries have to improve. >> Amen. Rebea and Moros have to earn more than the cleaning lady in the house and often she doesn't and and that's where it's at. That's where it's at. >> But but once once you have that and you infect them and exciting principles, the principle has a lot to do with it. if he's alive and it's helping them grow. There's a beautiful secular someone I once a quote the word principle used to be an adjective the principal teacher. >> Unfortunately it became a noun. >> Wow. Wow. >> So if the principal is is is an adjective principal teacher >> then >> good will come. Well thank you. This is really special and for all the people who weren't familiar with you, I'm sure they're so happy to get to hear you and learn. >> There are around six people in America. My >> pleasure. Thank you so much. People, so many of the mothers and fathers that are going to listen to this are gonna be like, "Oh my god, Rabbi Kramer, they're gonna right." [laughter] >> Thank you so much. Much much. >> Wow. Wasn't that really special? He's so vibrant and enthusiastic, you know, it's it's wonderful. Wonderful. >> You know, they say he's one of one. That's kind of Kramer's one of one. He's, you know, most are bay today, including myself. I've, you know, been through the maraz, right? >> It's not just the meas. My wife knows him from back, you know, in Prospect Park Elementary School and from the camps and from seminaries. I mean, he he I think he started was involved. He was involved in everything >> really. And you see why when you hear his voice, it's like so enthusiastic and >> the word he used addictive, infectious, but his presence, you know, and his leadership has been really at the forefront. It was to listen to someone like that. >> Absolutely. And and the truth is what he said about hire the four characteristics of a Revy really resonated with me. >> Yes. Yeah. You know, >> and he answered the question. He said, "Stop asking questions. If I get a bang, you'll be fine." He answered the email as well. >> All right. Well, thank you everybody for joining us. As you heard in the beginning, we love love the comments, questions, criticisms, thoughts from our listeners. So, please you can send an email to the learning [email protected]. That's one word, the learning [email protected]. >> Is there a phone number? >> There is a phone number and it is 4436869339. Again, 4436869339. So we hope to see everybody hear from you. Um Rajfeld have a wonderful porum. Take care.