Kiddush in Shul Friday Night and Eating Before Kiddush Shabbat Morning by Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz

okay hi good morning everyone I hope uh you're well uh first just some announcements um our Tuesday share for the entire year uh is sponsored by rever fo and Sharon Alman in memory of their parents Edith and rer Alman y Ben and Es BASF and their son been a r fo may all of the learning for the entire year beo Nish uh in addition all shorum of all types today Tuesday January 16 are D dedicated by Mrs H in memory of Kayla MOS and she added that Hitler robbed her of a Jewish Education but she spent her life catching up attending shim and proudly supporting her family's efforts in Li again we're very grateful and again made it made the LI of the entire u center today be uh yeah I think I think that is it again we're always very grateful for the Torah um so we are continuing uh with somean of Kes and havdalah um how we got on to this is a an association that's too convoluted for me to reconstruct but L we have been talking about Kish and hav and again just to mention a few uh we did see the basic idea that the kidish that is recited Friday night so first of all someone did mention and they are correct that the both among as and is generally unless you have kind of an American generally Kish is not recited Friday night and uh this is based again as they say this is actually based on the just to remind people the does record the but according to the no one is with the because you're only if you Hally have a meal and since the people who D in show are not eating in the show nobody's y if nobody say what's the purpose so the gamar says this is gamar the gamar says the purpose is that there used to be orim guests you know itinerant people poor people who would eat in the show so The KES was made for their benefit this is what the gamara says so Rio Karo says the following since BisMan which is already the 1500 certainly today it was not the Toka have a meal in the sh they would go to people homes or whatever it would be there is no longer a justification for kidish besset and therefore it should not be recited I'm talking about Friday night and therefore it is AAL that iso's opinion the Rama says that is that since the made all be it for and the reason doesn't apply but as is true with many aspects of the Liturgy once it's a takana it should be followed now if y records after he says that it's better not to say Kish and he says Minh eret Israel so apparently the minog of er Israel is earlier than of YF KIRO he already records it as the minog of er Isel and therefore even the ashaz who follow the raim in the general custom is not to make kidish Friday night and show unless somebody's Mish eating there if somebody's mamish eating there then of course you can that's for sure but if nobody's eating and CH you don't okay so that's why if you haven't seen keset in it's because even among Asim was made it that the was not to do it and therefore ASM did not change that Min just to give you an interesting example in Reverse you know the Rama who dieded very young the Rama died in his 40s the Rama was the r of kco that was the Rama's estellar so if you go to kco kco to this very day is a very very beautiful city and there are many many many shs I mean most of them are not functioning as shs but the banim of the shs are still there unlike wara which was 95% destroyed both by German bombing and by Allied bombing uh Kaka was left intact and in some some ways it's a bit of a Sinister reason kco was the capital of Nazi occupied Poland Hans Frank yakimo was the governor general and because kako had beautiful architecture and it does have beautiful architecture he gave orders that the building should be spared kill the people kill the Jews that was no problem but spare the architecture so as a result all of the synagogues and I mean the Nazis used them for whatever they use them for but all of the synagogues are still intact um although as I say most of them are not used as synagogues but some are and one that is used to this day is the base knesset of the Rama the Rama's show is in kco and you can dive in there usually there's a minion not necessarily local people but there are enough visitors in Poland which is another interesting sh know should we be supporting Poland the amount of money that uh from Yen from Israel and from America put into the Polish economy is pretty high and all right so people debate you know is that is that a proper place to put your money but okay I don't want to get into that uh but you can D in you know three times a day in the Rama's Bas knesset and they even have the the seat of the RAR that is blocked off so nobody should inadvertently sit in the Ra's seat but what's interesting is that when go to the besset of the RMA they D in Ash they do not D in they say what type of would it be that we should go to the father of ashkanazi customs and do different minhagim so even will refer to the of the r in the besset of the Rama so we have a similar development the other way around when the T of the r and later the came toel they deferred to the old Min of not to recite KES but at least in the r does record that the is to recite Kish even though there are no or so I'm going to go with that Min a little bit because you immediately have a certain problem and that is one is not allowed to eat or drink until their y say KES now uh if I'm the guy making KES let's assum I'm thein or I'm the Gaba whoever makes KES right so the question is if I'm not y say Kish because don't have MOS or I don't have bread then how am I allowed to drink the wine because I'm drinking without a Kish if there's a piece of cake there okay that's fine I can make Kish I need a piece of cake right and that might be the easiest solution but if all we have is the wine then how can I even drink the wine so because of this many have the minog that even though a godal makes kidish the wine should be drunk by a cotton so the godal makes a b pren with kavana to be mo the Kon and the Kon drinks because if the G would drink he would be violating the that you're not allowed to drink without a valid KES and it's not a valid KES so the question then becomes what type of K everything in we keep on going further and further Orana boy or girl is is fine but the question is there are two levels of Katan uh is a child who is old enough to understand and now course this is not a single edge this may depend on the nature of the Mitzvah but with respect to a given Mitzvah he's old enough to understand what what it means and at that point I'm to train him a child who so young he doesn't really understand uh like a two-year-old now once again this is both age dependent and Mitzvah dependent but there is a of so you got a problem with either C because if it's a cut he's also not allowed to eat before kidish because I got a trainer in the law of not eating before Kish so how can I give him the wine he's not KES Eli I got to use a kid who's so young that he's low then we have a problem how can I make a on wine if I'm not going to drink the wine for a my only justification is I can't make a braa for a six-month old if I'm not going to drink it I can make a braa for a sixy old uh to be because that's but I can't make the six month so you have a dilemma should it be a because that will give you the right to make the or should it be a because that'll avoid the iser of giving him to eat before KES so the PO say that it's better to have a because that will enable you to make the and in terms of the and the is beating before Kish some say don't have that at all because they're weaker Etc and just like for fasting you know we don't say when a kid is 6 years old he should fast on yum Kipper or whatever it would be so even for eating before Kish we're not overly strict now there is another way which is maybe the simplest way and that is there is a way that even without MOS the madesh could have what is Hally called a meal now remember as I as we discussed there are basically three three different ways you can have a meal that qualifies for KES one is Hamot you eat a kazas of bread of course that would require Bening okay the second is what we do shabas morning usually is a kazas of mos which can work here too if if there's MOS but the third is drinking a re of wine can qualify as a Mak now a rious is AIC measurement a very important measurement and like every measurements there's all sorts of M but let's go with the simplest measure 4.0 fluid oun drinking 4.0 fluid ounces is a revious of ion and that becomes a Maka but this gets a little complicated too because how does it overlap with the requirement of drinking Kish anyway in other words let's talk about Kish a regular Kish let's talk about the Kish you make at home right forget about makuma you're going to have a whole meal makam is not your problem so the is that the coast of Kes must hold a revas of wine meaning you cannot make Kish on a cup of wine that holds less than 4 oz the amount of wine that has to be drunk however is not 4 oz but what is called malow lug the amount that would fill up one side of your cheeks now that depends on how big your gels are uh but generally speaking the normal halic definition of malov is RO rious now if if a rious is 4.0 so row of rious would be 2 2.1 right now so here's the question I make kidish and Sh in order for me to be allowed to drink the wine I have to have a so even if a normal kidish would just be 2.1 here I would have to drink 4.0 but the question is is that 4.0 in addition to the 2.1 meaning the 2.1 I have to drink because of Kish and the 4.0 I have to drink because of SOA or do you go with two birds kill one uh one I'm sorry one stone bird all my American's what's the saying again bir to kill two birds with one stone are okay uh what did decline anyway so the thing is you kill two birds with one stone so the concept would be by drinking four .0 I'm covering the 2.1 which is the Shia for kidish and then I have the but e e the says you should keep them as two separate measurements so the guy that's making Kish in SCH should drink 6.1 fluid ounces that means four uh 2.1 for the drinking of kidish and uh another four for the uh uh but the evid if that's difficult uh he can drink 4.0 and that will count for both but again the important point is that simply drinking the amount that is sufficient for Kish generally is not going to be enough here because he would not be allowed to drink it unless it's a and sudar requires hamotzi or MOS or a whole a hole rious ofion which is 4.4.0 right so these are the different Alternatives either give it to a then we have a but we in which case the kid can needs only to drink 2 point you know just a little bit uh or the alternative uh would be he the madesh has to drink four fluid ounces either together with 2.1 or just four fluid ounces and this is because of the rule the very important rule of uh so even though we're going to make KES even without but the madesh would not be allowed to drink the wine unless he has Hally what is called uh what is called a meal okay so this is um things to remember again in we don't have the problem because the is not to make Kish all my guess is my guess is because I know how pushy Americans can be that there probably are American cilos that just do their American thing yeah I used to be an America no I mean uh you know uh I'll give you another example of this although I don't want to offend anybody um you know it it huh offend everybody everybody okay be equal no you know uh in in America I mean and I I did it in my show as well it's very very common in the summer to have an early shabas minion and on one hand uh it's actually commendable because there is a Mitzvah to be Mel chabus early uh although you have to be careful not too early Etc uh but in erel theel was not I you could be Maas early but it was not to finish Marv early and then have a meal before the sun set the Min Isel was to at least wait for the meal and KES until until dark that was the Min ofic that is the Min of Eric Israel and this was a Min that was endorsed uh certainly by all the ashkanazi postman orbak Rebel Yos and the like but now come these pushy Americans and they just want to bring their te or Baltimore minhagim to ER Israel and now you'll actually find you'll probably see a lot of people have early shabas minhagim uh okay as I say that an example of sometimes people uh kind of bringing Min hug of course that's the way mugam are really I mean in fact I'll tell you something um the balam is May now this is fascinating that the original was only to have one day of rashash consistent with the other yamim toim and it was those upstarts from France this is in the 1200s who brought their so the truth is the idea of bringing the started started very very long ago the B this is raki is a a very very famous Reon very controversial Reon though the ran for example knocks him down he shoots it down the ramban strongly disagrees with the balor's claim but the balamore claims that even in ER Israel you should only keep one day of Rashana and he said it was an upstart French balas who brought in the now occasionally every every once in a while you do have a bit of a Maverick Rabbi like RAV some of you might be know him he now you know he gives a and he often will bring up these things let's go back to the original things and whatever he says we shouldn't have kitney in the rest to when when um R falls out on chabas you should blow chauffer in whatever the truth is what he says has some resonance because he is going back to very very early sources but nevertheless you know Haka has its own form of development and once something has been in place for hundreds and hundreds of years we don't simply turn back the clock and say oh let's do it the way they did it you know 500 years ago I mean has its own momentum so we're going to keep two days of Rashana we're not going to blow chauffeur when falls out we're not we're not going to eat K well if you're askanazi if you're askanazi you're not going to eat kidneys if you're you if you're you still have you still have the right to eat U to eat kidneys fact was very nice um I was reading um a book about living in Eric Israel they're kind of encouraging people to make alah so the person mentioned that P they went to see a movie and whatever and and they noticed that they were selling popcorn in the lobby and the person was so disheartened I am coming to Eric jel and doing PES the popcorn and then she overheard that when somebody ordered popcorn the kid behind the counter said he wouldn't he wouldn't sell through a askanazi so she said is beautiful they discriminate they only sell the popcorn to a Spidy not to not to askanazi yeah about that early shot um it became more of a custom here for people with young children well of course that that that is the custom I mean that's the basic reason for it but let me just explain the issue Hally the postum felt that although you can dve in myv early for sure and you can you can be maab shabas early for sure but they felt you weren't allowed to make Kish and have a meal until it was actually dark now I understand now the truth of the matter is though I understand that light chabas is are heart for kids but but the MS is in erel even a late chabus is not as late meaning it's it's not it's not the same meaning it gets darker much more quickly yeah uh so the postum felt that even for children it wasn't correct now again I'm I'm not questioning I mean people do what they do and there are reasons for it but I'm just telling you that the Min of erel was not to make kidish Until Dark even though you can dve in Marv early of course you have to say shma everyone knows that if you everyone understands I hope that if you dve in an early MV whether it's Friday night or whether it's during the week even uh you do have to say kma after it's dark uh because you're not yma is a mitah for the men at least and uh the ability to D in an early and you say the the but you're not y say the mitvah of of kishma that that's a very important Point as well in terms of counting of the OM okay that's a m some will allow you to count the OM early some will say the omr should also be delayed that that uh and we'll talk about that when we get closer to uh closer to the the counting of the OM second Russ what was there well their Sor was that even in erel in the time of the B at least outside of Jerusalem they had to keep two days because rashash is the only holiday that is the first day of the month and therefore even erel were not sure when the month was Sanctified in other words unlike sukot unlike any other where ER would already know when rodes was proclaimed rashash is a problem of course the big question you can ask is this even if it makes sense to have two days in all of er Israel why have two two days in yush because Jam they knew they knew what day was Sanctified so that that that that is a good question um but at some point once it was decided that all of er Israel would be two days they didn't want to differentiate you and treat it differently but this was the sheet of the balas uh but as I say the balamor is made that the original minog of er Israel in the time of the gim was Tako one day Rashad which is really quite quite an amazing thing yeah yes now probably but my question all the years only one day oh okay yeah yeah yeah yeah no that that's an excellent that's an excellent question and the truth of the matter is yeah the question was uh we keep let's say even right so we'll keep two uh two days of sukot uh two days of rash we keep even here but then only one day of yam Kipper now the logic the logic of calendrical doubts should require two days of yum Kipper yeah so the short answer is but once you do one one other once you say that yeah that you know that was only one day ofer for whatever reason time you get to you should just do one day no no the answer is in the time of the B mikdash when there was a when you didn't have a calendar and you genuinely didn't know it could very well be that people had to fast two days yeah but today but today but today where we do know and it's only you know him so they didn't want to impose the hardship of two-day fasting but you know in modern times there were people who fasted two days uh in the international dat line you may recall in Shanghai right uh because there's some uncertainty uh what the hak day is then uh there were K people who fasted two days on yum yeah one day yeah and blew the uh no no no they did not there was no chauffer at all that's right you missed it you you missed it uh you missed chauffer that's okay now one other thing I want to mention interesting this rule that you're not allowed to eat before kidish I'm sorry yes I want to ask something that you I microphone a little closer so I visit people and they actually will give their children snacks right after Hada SN and I was a little surprised because I was always brought up to not eat before Kish so I wanted right so that's what I mention the missiona brings that many opinions maintain that the prohibition of eating before kidish does not applied to kitanim that that in fact that's the hetra of giving the kid the wine Etc so Bas so there is there is a leniency in that that as well so an adult could not child we could be lenient yeah yeah that would be the difference so this rule that you can't eat before Kish and this is very Hummer uh even water even water so let's see how that works shabas morning uh person gets a and here we we have an interesting difference between men and women fascinatingly let me first describe the for the man then I'll talk about how it might be different for the woman a man gets up um he didn't DAV yet maybe he said Bros maybe he didn't say Bros now there are two problems one is the problem of eating before daving which is a problem every day of the week and the other is eating before Kish which is M of course for chabas now eating before daving we have a number of things that a person is allowed to do at a minimum a person is allowed to have water that's for sure and um no that that gets extended water gets gets an expanded definition it includes coffee it includes tea some allow coffee with milk uh some allow coffee with sugar right so water water gets expanded but whatever it is but generally speaking many types of drinks are going to be okay uh solid food generally should not be allowed unless there's health issues if there are health issues that's a separate issue but generally speaking uh and consumption before ding should be limited to liquids now does that change shabas morning because it's before KES the answer is it actually doesn't change because the of making KES does not come upon you till you have davakis so until I davakis I don't have an obligation of Kes therefore I don't have the prohibition of eating before Kish I only have the prohibition of eating before daving eating before daving I can have coffee tea and the like but once I I'm talking about a man now I'll talk about a woman's law differently once I dve in Shak even if I didn't dve in mus yet I have a problem I now have a of Kish once I have a of Kish I cannot even have water until I make Kish right so for a man it's a relatively straightforward issue before daving and chabas morning I can have coffee tea right whatever MOS no no no you cannot have Maus un unless there's a health issue if there's a health issue you can have Maas um once I D shakas I can have nothing until I make kidish now I know that you will see in some places even among some very religious Jews that some do have a Min of having MOS before shakas and indeed this is a standard Min of kabad of over which they will fight quite vociferously I mean Ian there's no point in giving mus I mean but but uh if anybody calls it to their attention they will get very upset uh because they say know the Revy said it was okay so again the hetcher they have I mean I'll just tell you the hetcher they have is that because they start doing late of course what's the Hatcher for that but okay but because they they start doing late so what's going to happen is uh they're going to be so hungry by by late later in the day that they will not have cavana and the claim would be you're allowed to eat if it's necessary for your cavana now if you have such a a minog you know you have it I'm not going to question it but if you don't have such a minog or such a m one should and there's no health issue one should not have MOS before shakas that is true during the week I'm talking for a man I'll talk about a woman be a little differently that is true during the week and that is certainly true shabas morning and once a man DAV chakis they're not allowed to even have a glass of water until they make kidish now this is for a man I'm going to mention why a woman is might be a different problem yeah yeah yes so that's true if you yeah if you get up before Dawn alak which will will again everything is M here but let's define let's define Dawn as 72 fixed minutes before Sunrise what Sunrise is in but okay um so so Before Dawn Before Dawn you are allowed to eat anything you want and that's true both for kdes and for yeah so you can have a whole meal if you if let's say if if uh Sunrise is 6:15 so you get up at 5 5 uh 5 a.m you can have a whole meal without Kish and there's no problem at all because everything is only from because that's the earliest you could D and the earliest therefore you be to say KES if you d shakas come late to sure every week does that make you like well uh I come I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure yeah yeah yeah question yeah well well you know uh kabad is not the worst offender I mean I mean there there there actually there are actually places that that are much much much worse than kabad uh kabad is you know moderately missing missing uh so the question really I don't I don't want to call this kadish Ian I think kabad is well maybe other meet MOS too butab is Mos but Zaman is an endemic issue with with in general uh that they often were not moit on onim uh the exception historically was G and and this goes back to theas meaning before theas G was like other Casas they also missed all theim this was very very moid that they keep theim uh how they get around it it's uh it's very difficult to justify I mean part of their argument would be this that hadin when a person is capable of a great level of kavana and and they're not able to achieve it they're exempt from the Mitzvah until they can reach that level of kavana so they claimed they needed hours and hours but you know those are types of arguments that may apply to the rebi or to the sadic I mean I don't know how they can really apply to every individual a person so it's it's difficult I mean you again I it's it's hard to be uh but we have to assume that if this was the hhoga that the rabim gave them if that was the case then we have to assume that there's something to it but but as they say generally speaking we should keep this go to a hotel here could be a hotel very yeah always yes so so part so so part so number one part of it is for uh the kids and remember the kids can certainly eat before they can eat before Ding and before kiddish as well and part of it is for that have such a Min Etc but um again I don't want to make life hard for anybody I don't I don't mean to be M you know whatever your you know you could follow them but but generally PR to say about the okay so now I want to talk about the women a little bit now we have to go back to the same issue but but in order to understand women we have to ask this question what is a woman's obligation in because we see by a man right until heak he can have coffee tea milk juice not juice okay after he in Shak and Kish can't have anything so we see that is a big dividing point the question is what is the definition of for a woman or to put it another way does a woman have to D and even during the week a full shakas so this is a huge m going all the way back between the rambam my Mones and the ramban according to ran a woman is obligated to dve in a full amid this is during the week now in other words a woman has to D in a fullon a full Shak this is ramban according to Ram according to the rambam a woman is obligated to D but it doesn't have to be the of an a woman can be with a minimal supplication some say mod is already enough for her daving some say is enough it doesn't have to be a full the way girls are taught in in the standard Bas Yakov is they're generally taught they got to do a whole thing on the other hand it's also well known that if a woman is Raising young children and there are difficulties does allow her to rely on the opinion of the r that a short just maybe even said even one of the which is a you know paragraph is enough to be a complete so and again and the truth is even women without children if daving a whole shakas is difficult for them uh they could rely on the ram so what's interesting is this this is f ating the rambam is lenient ramb ramban is but it turns out shabas morning the positions are going to be reversed once a woman has said morning Bros she has daved a so let's imagine did you ever see the video of um of keski and his rabbitson they were saying morning bras to each other so each could answer a Ritson said it and she said it so it's interesting if this would have been shabas morning the rabbitson would not be allowed to have a cup of coffee after her but would be allowed to have a cup of coffee after his and the reason is R did not yet dakus the reiton at least so what's interesting is that the woman's eer of eating before kides may take effect before the man's eer of eating before KES because the woman's is satisfied or may be satisfied with beer cut an amazing thing now R mosha Feinstein qualifies this with a very very big leniency R mosha says a married woman is never obligated in kidish until her husband is obligated in Kish and therefore of Mosa's point was even if a woman said even if a woman if her husband did not yet D shakas she is not subject to the kidish rule uh and therefore fact it's a strange thing if she's not subject to K that actually means and but she and sheak she could actually eat everything I mean she could she could eat MAA she could eat everything without Kish because she's not and KES until their husband that's a very interesting Kish and what we many people follow that you know you could certainly after 120 years you can always say I followed rosha Feinstein you're going to be safe but what's interesting is that is only a s for a married woman that is not a s for your single daughters so for your single daughters it will still be the case that once they said they should not have a cup of water until they make kidish but but but there's another leniency and that is if it is the girls Minh to always dive in a and some say even if it is her that only on then we say her kidish obligation doesn't take effect till after that amida so the biter uh the rule generally is that we start off with a principle but then it branches off into two different leniencies the principle is that in the abstract once a woman has saidak she should not be allowed to eat anything until she makes kidish but she can make oh yeah yeah she and she yeah yeah she don't have to yeah that's the principle but it branches off into two exceptions to that principle exception one is RA moshe's rule for a married woman that she is not obligated in KES until her husband dakis and Branch off number two is any girl who either normally divin a full Shon or even if only on shabas DAV Shon is entitled to say that their has not been M until that amida and therefore she's exactly like the man who said morning Bros in which uh the man was not M yet and therefore he could U uh he could have uh he couldn't he couldn't eat a whole meal but he could have coffee tea and the like and she could have the same thing yeah it seems like a very strange claw I me I guess I just don't understand because to me that doesn't seem to such a thing you can't do half a Mitzvah and then take a break and do something else and another half if you're if is all of Shak and just by saying part of the thing you've not been m not been M Shak but you kind of a start of shakas and just like you in the middle of shra you can't decide well that's enough and I'm going to make a drink no no but it's more it's more than that it's not in other words according to the rambam according to the rambam um a woman is who says b is not M half Mitzvah she's m Mitzvah meaning that's her that's her her only obligation that's what she intends to be to be with that but her is to eat to no no that's the leniency in other words uh she said she didn't say yet know she was since she was m not not to be with so she's like a man before daving so she could have what you can have before daving before other words I'm not saying she could eat all meal she could have coffee tea she's like a man before ding that's all just she doing half a mitv no it's not because it's half a mitzah it's let's say it's a zero Mitzvah but but she could eat before daving those thing those things that you're allowed to eat before daving a woman is not allowed before she dos every day let's say she's not allowed to eat piece of cake either that's that's correct so so here here's what I would tell a woman uh who has to take care of children what I would tell the one take care of children is that she should say be on the r that that is a valid doing and then you can eat cake uh or whatever it is if if you find that's necessary for what you have to do uh but a woman should not have MOS until she says let's say B that that's actually true because a woman does a woman absolutely has some obligation to D like the ra like the ramban it's long like the rambam it could be very short but there is an obligation to do something fact even mean even you know please hasem help me through the day you know that that would be enough but there has to be something they say the brisker r you know uh well well let me let me go back to this there's another makus the r and the ran it's actually connected but I don't want to go through how they're connected whether daving to Hashem every day is a Torah commandment the ram my manes actually says there's a Mitzvah every day every day to dve Hashem in your own words so according to the rambam is the even though the of is later the ramban actually says that prayer to Hashem is a rinic requirement unless you're in a time of when you're in a time of Ace then you're used to say that really the rambam agrees to the ran that Thea is a s but he considers life to be an existential crisis so life is inherently defined as an A S which would mean actually I mean let's say now now it could very well be Hally we're defined as an so it could be that even ran would say now what what's interesting uh is that they say the brisar used to uh constantly uh mutter during the day the Aur Allen the Aben so people want to say because he was that every minute might be in so he wanted to fulfill the of the raan to D into Hashem by saying the but the way their mabar is it's not that he actually felt it was a s he was for the Mitzvah other words says it's not that oh I think there's a s rather if there is a Sor I have to do this Mitzvah so I better do this Mitzvah so it was the Mitzvah that gave him the Tor yeah make the women feel better I don't know who said this but they I think said that that's your then that's your and then that ends with that's your right Element no that's exactly correct no yeah I think I mentioned bki that the last yeah the last is is sufficient it's not even all of them it's nice to say all of them but it's the last alone with that paragraph has has those three elements and that would be enough to be M the according to RAM and as I say a woman with with children certainly in fact it was absolutely the minog in Europe I mean uh for women to do it now because of bakov because there weren't bakov until the 1920s uh the girls are are taught a stricter standard but you know the's mother records his own mother did not d a every day and her kids turned out uh pretty pretty good uh in that way so one should not be overly overly M if it takes uh a person away it takes away yeses um okay all right so that was just an interesting point where the leniency of women's could could potentially create a stringency uh shabas uh shabas morning okay uh so the the final issue I just want to talk about once again uh obviously uh the most one of the most familiar of Kes is that a man comes home and generally can make KES for his wife again Hally she could make Kish no there is no problem with a woman saying kidish absolutely but but you know the normal custom the normal custom is you know husband makes kidish uh for his wife and uh this apparently obvious custom actually raises certain problems there is a very very amazing Pak of theud R was the rav of Prague in the 1700s a great great G one of the greatest of Theon um tras his commentary on it's the same it's the same uh person by the way as a little aside it's very interesting he also has a safer of D dros and in the dros is a hband that he gave for his wife is Ritson and uh in the husband he identified things that I think any congregational Rabbi can could identify with uh he thanked his wife because he says there were times that he was so frustrated and angry at members of the kahila and she always she always calmed him down and made him see made him see the other side of things so he says he wanted to thank her uh for that precious gift he says he doesn't know who's going to calm him down now you know now that now that she's gone um but be it as it may here's what he says this is quite amazing he says a man that has davened arvit in the B [Music] knesset cannot make kidish for his wife who has not dent arvit in the bessar meaning if they both DAV and darit no problem if they neither DAV and darit no problem uh and if he didn't D and she D again no problem but in the particular configuration where he DED arit and she didn't the naud paskins the man cannot make kidish for his wife she would have to make the KES herself what's going on what's going on why is that so she governed at home no that's fine again you said in besset no I didn't I don't I don't think I even said in B but but either way if they both D I don't care yeah it could be at home or if they both do no problem no matter where they do if neither doed no problem but if the man DED whether whether base canet at or at home and she did not D he cannot make Kish for her uh why is that so so so here's the argument the argument is we we mentioned that the requirement of Kes on wine and KES are requirements to be sure but they are only rinic requirements youra your Y without wine and your Y without food therefore when a man DAV arit even if they didn't make Kish show by saying the paragraph BYU he has fulfilled his Torah obligation of Kes yes rically he's still to make KES rically he has to make KES for sure because of the requirement of meal and wine but he's not on a Torah level by contrast the woman who has not DAV arvit is on a Torah level now in order to be mo in order for me to do a mitzvah for you I have to have the same level of that's why a a kid below Mitzvah cannot be mo me that is why a who can read Hebrew cannot be Moy me because he's not obligated so the same idea that somebody who's not obligated can't do the mitzvah for somebody who is obligated if I'm only obligated rically but I'm not obligated under Torah La I can't do the mitzvah for somebody who's obligated under Torah La so if we both DAV Marv whether in sh or at home we're both only obligated rically so raban can do raban if neither of us St dar we're both obligated under Torah law so Torah could be Moi Torah but if the man D he's only obligated in KES rically the woman who didn't D an arvit is obligated in KES under Torah law man cannot recite Kish for wife so so in order not to I will not stop the even if I'm out of town I will not stop the class here because this would be a catastrophic place to break uh so I need to say right away right away that we do not pasin no no I can't I can't I can't let you go without this we do not pasin like this very interesting Kish of the no Yuda and there are a lot of interesting reasons why we don't pasan like this first of all the Mish Breer makes the m points out a number of reasons why we don't he brings he brings the the but says we don't follow him and he says a few reasons he says first of all if a man has intention that he's going to make KES at home it is he has specific kavana not to fulfill his Kish obligation with so when he comes home he's still because his cavana was not to be y That's Point number one point number two maybe he's the oppos oppos if you're going to tell me he's then she's when she said words of sh shabas or maybe she's even y assuming they talk to each other when she says good shabas or shabbat shalom she said words of chabas so either it's symmetrical either they're both because he had not to be or they're both because she lit candles and she said good shabas so for various reasons therefore the Mish says this is not a problem and then he goes out to a more fundamental there's actually a more fundamental reason a deeper reason which reer identifies and that is the principle of call meaning to say that listen let's assume I made Kish but I could still make Kish for another person because everyone is responsible for everybody else so the same way I could make Kish for a guest who shows up I could make Kish for my wife she's no worse than anybody else meaning she's better right so there is a principle this is actually the main reason that even if we assume the man was yot Kish he could still make it for his wife based on the principle of K Israel AR Raven El so again I I bring up the N not to scare anybody because again it's absolutely clear we do not follow him but it's such an interesting observation and aish kind of a creative way of looking at it that I wanted to share it with you but again the Mish says there is no problem so what you know husband comes home from scha even if the wife did not say arvit uh he can certainly make ksh uh for his wife okay um so woman her husband in K absolutely absolutely absolutely men and women are equal in KES there is nothing wrong with a woman making KES uh for a man now there are some things she cannot do for a man uh for example she could not blow chauffeur for her husband because a woman is not is not it's a Min but she's not in chur so she could not blow chauffeur for her husband but she could recite KES for her husband the same thing well well that the gamar has a question because a woman's obligation may only be rinic so it's better for a woman not to bench for her husband but Kish they're exactly the same so a woman could say Kish now Milla reading is an interesting makus can a woman read for a man uh many posum say yes to brings the bosos who says no so that's an issue can a woman read mcgilla for a man okay we'll stop here have a good good week everybody