Rabbi Pinchas Jung & Chaim Bin Nun

now okay so this the title of this uh session is the street vibe our daughters are living with so i'm not as concerned about the street vibe our daughters are living with because we're living with it and our sons are living with it as well but i think it's it's it's it's how the home vibe about our sons and but specifically daughters and we'll get into that sure is this better okay so basically um the title is a little misleading i think there's and i know sometimes we think the counteracting of the vibe on the street at home or in the school is um the way to go and then we'll explore that so unfortunately one of the the challenges that are more pronounced when it's a daughter going on a journey is in the realm of sneeze and if we're going to stake our whole masaira on the inches of the skirt or some other clothing you know i'm so sneezed i don't think about women's snacks i just you know think about what i have to do um and it's not the belittle that sneers sneeze is not about clothing we'll get into that too but it's i think we have to measure our daughter's smiles before we measure their skirts and and blouses and whatever other articles of clothing they're wearing and if we do that we'll be okay um [Music] it's it's you know how do we explain that sneeze issue and this is not only about sneeze but sneeze is is about not being boisterous so if you have somebody who's driving a a ferrari in borough park that's the same valuation it's near in one respect or another um is the beginning when somebody thinks they're not part of the community because of what they dress that that's when troubles begin but if if we show that you're more than what you're wearing then then we're already on the way of uh winning the battle so i just wanted to say that part it's more again the vibe in the home than than it is sorry about that than it is about what's going on in the street now what's going on down the street is is is is is um going on very fast and it's changing and [Music] we have to create an atmosphere at home that can combat what's going on on the street in the sense that there is more love and more serenity more calm in the home than there is on the street the street will burn itself out eventually they'll be that's where the competition is that's where the conditional love is where if you dress a certain way if you act a certain way then you fit in and if you don't you don't but at home you're part of the home regardless the stresses on the happiness and the stress is on who you are and not what you wear or what you say or the way you say it so we're not going to compete with the street with the with the temptations and with the goods and with the speed that's going on out there but we can't provide something the street can't and that's a place called home and again home that shouldn't be uh again you know baseball is a game of inches not the home and not uh not who who our children are so that that's that's how i wanted to uh start off if if there are specific questions daughter related or not we could we could start with that i prefer to hear from you then to keep going okay i agree that how a child is not the most important thing in terms of how i feel about you but as soon as a child starts dressing differently obviously they're going to be judged by the community by their schools they're they're kind of like ostracizing themselves from belonging which is part of what i think they want to do so that's where my battle of giving in to it eventually i did give in because it was a certain amount of fighting that you can't i can't do but i feel like by my daughter's choosing to dress differently they're choosing to not be they're choosing to optimize themselves from the community from the school and then they wonder why they feel snobbed or why they don't feel like comfortable in the community like but it was even though i can love them as much as i do despite how they dress it's it still harms them because they're making themselves different right and the question is so in other words according to the guidance that i got based on all the what i've heard from all these type of things that i did the right thing by not making them at all about the clothes and to show them that they have unconditional love and that they show us regardless of how you dress but in the end of the day still harming them that they chose to truly not look different and not belong to the community okay so so again you're stuck between a rock and a hard place they would have had a different negative thing about the community and and i i primarily do deal on a mass scale with the boys and they yeah but but they don't but that's not that's yeah again that that could be what they blame the the quote-unquote communities not getting getting them or being part of them but um that started already before and this is just a symptom that's not the cause of it and and i i would not defend the community if they say oh mrs such and such looked at me different because i'm wearing x y and z you say oh that you know i see you for who you are that if they did that that's not right you don't have to justify whoever it is because you just have to be there for the child and their their experience and let them share their experience it's it's it's easily debatable if the person is actually interested in engaging in a debate and usually sinis is not only about sneeze or and and and drugs are not really about drugs either it's all about pain and not fitting in and being lost and being confused and i think as parents we should treat the um you know the bullet and not the you know not the ripped uh shirt that the bull passed through so that would be the exact metaphor it's keep making them feel special at home we're not going to control the world we're not going to change the world in a mass scale immediately we could change it you know a day at a time and again you seem to understand the whole picture i i don't think you should have regrets is what you did because a child who you're fighting with up to a certain point depending what age the child is they'll go with you and because they don't have money and they don't have the access and eventually and again i'm not saying you should therefore give it to them to prove something but eventually that bowel will break and the the floodgates open and the reason why she'll be ostracized from the community is because she has the police call to her house for breaking things and being violent and threatening people or who have something less extreme right right and and again and again from experience and from what i've heard the the girls who are all boys who really want to dress a certain way three seconds left out of the house they change or they go to their friend's house and change don't tell him that i again it up when i came here okay so yeah yeah so it's not about you know again but so the the point would be again when they complain about people saying things about them and say that's not right i hope people can be as understanding as as as you deserve them to be for you and if we don't try to defend people against them they don't take it that oh we're trying to make them feel better they say oh you want me to like the rabbi you want me to like the neighbors you want me to more than me you're understanding them more than me so that's a general rule to uh yeah try to understand the child not the community and and do what you can for them and everybody else and then again this is just a general thing if you are comfortable with your child and you will go with them as they are other people usually follow suit the stronger willed person will win so if you show them that acceptance other people will follow you're the greatest advocate for your child in that sense as well i just saw your name on the thing i don't know um who i am i am um some people know me as donny's dad that's donny and um uh so i i am a therapist and i'm a father and i went through a journey thank you [Applause] okay thank you thank you very much now i can go home but um but yeah that is that is that is the greatest compliment but yes so um you know i i work in out of baltimore but i see people worldwide through zoom in other ways and um you know it's it doesn't depend doesn't make a difference if it's a boy or a girl but it's a it's a relationship issues would be the relationship with self with spouses or with their children so that that's my background any questions about the topic i can give you directions to the room yes yeah okay okay um i can i can continue going if there aren't any other questions which many of these children end up getting hold of they're living on the street they're living on tick tock which is even like more than what's really in the streets well that's the vibe yes in society is very much affected by that even more than a kid would be in public school without you know well yeah that's how well yeah there is no street it's a virtual street yes right so again the the the it's it's every case is different and every situation is different the the the the phones are a subject of great conflict and it's becoming more and more mainstream and the filters do not work pretty much never work the phone is a whole other thing like did we let the phone in the house oh that's each case is different it depends where you're holding if your child just get you know it depends because if they don't have the in the house they find a friend that does have yeah the exposure is there this is not about this we can have a question about that as well but this is in in general uh this is just the general that that there is a lot of exposure and that exposure is unhealthy and again the the the the the parents relationship is what is going to counteract that balance they need more a settled place they need us to be a better example and if we're just we're not connected then all their connections are going to come virtually and that's not healthy the statistics are rather grim when it comes to that and and there are those out there who do this the generational studies who are extremely you know on the side that technology is bringing that about um unfortunately from the looks in this room right now uh and in the shabbaton and in people that you see uh people are on their phones all the time and if we're as adults gonna do that our kids are definitely going to do that and we're not going to have a look to stand on or a chair to sit on and that's fine but again that's something that we have to be aware of i i literally had it last week i'm working with a very volatile situation happens to be a boy the father mother and child are sitting in my office and the father's on his phone the whole time so and the complaint is we have to get him off the phone so it's a problem and again we we our children don't learn from what we say they actually many times despise what we say when they're in the conflict mode either when they're younger or there's some volatility going on they're learned by what we do and how we act and even if they don't if they don't they don't necessarily recognize that we don't recognize their reaction to us we are teaching them by example all the time you can't unlearn what you what you see so that's our um yeah do you have another microphone tour anytime you have no microphone no no fam there's a second presenter he's the of the presenter he's coming up right here this way the steps the steps the steps here um please forgive me everybody we just literally arrived i understand that they'd like to get me into the program because of experience in ghana habonus not just in schools but we had our own programs we certainly worked with ronnie greenwald zucchini and we work with a lot of girls who are drifted off and found a different way in life we haven't always been able to keep up with them all some of them have done nicely some of them we simply do not know i would be relieved if we can get questions from either side of the mechitzer because that will prompt me what to tell you and what to say rather than just speaking as they say in english in the welterran without knowing what would be of value to the present audience so the best thing i do believe is if you give me questions with hashem's help hopefully i can share with you one or two ideas which may be of value yes a child builds a wall around them well i think the simple thing that might penetrate that wall honestly is a four-lettered word a nice four-lettered word l-o-v-e because let's face it a girl even more than a boy needs it wants it and even if she'll tell you she doesn't she does still want it and if she feels that that is coming over that can melt the barriers i hope this is some help to you how do you express it i would re imagine it is anything ranging from the expression on your face or making them some kind of offer on their terms which will talk to them which will appeal to them and for the moment obviously i think this goes without saying not to focus on what they're wearing or the way they speak or anything of that nature and not to make any demands and simply um love for its own sake because that's what they're craving for deep down even if as i said even if they deny it so um you might offer them to take them somewhere you might offer them a gift you might offer them just your time or whatever it is you will know the child that you're talking about who is is your daughter or somebody else and what it might be that will appeal to them um or you speak to somebody else with experience and they might recommend you a few ideas of which overture would be the most appropriate okay yes please let's say you feel like you've been doing that you've been expressing love you've been taking an interest you've been buying what they want you've been trying to accommodate their requests yeah verbally in texts and letters and gifts and the they're just kind of rejecting you and they're saying i i don't want you and like i'm i'm continuing and i keep trying even though it's hurtful and i feel like you know should i be on this path of just love love love and keep getting rejected reject your objective or is there something else i can do because it's just not working i'm doing anything and everything and i feel like i just want to get away from you do you think that there's anything any mistakes which were probably innocent mistakes that were done in the past which caused them to keep that distance i think there were mistakes that i think there was trauma that occurred nothing with us per se but i think she either blames us or you know in the sense that she feels that we should have protected her and she wasn't protected i mean obviously she was very young oh so something went wrong through another person and she felt that you let her down i'm not sure that that's the whole problem but i feel like i've been trying for a year i mean anything and everything she wants and i'm still being like i'm the problem you know i just don't want you i want to move away from you but she still lives at home or doesn't she she does not want her she doesn't want to but she's not done it so she's not done it though and if she says it but doesn't do it it possibly means that deep deep down she doesn't want out i'm just thinking it's not mummish the area where i was working because it wasn't with my own children and what we found with other people's children the very fact that we unconditionally whether it took them out to eat or whatever we did for them it did register now here i would think that it might be kadai sometimes to step down a bit and sometimes to come back again and try to offer them the best that you can of course patience is a very essential ingredient over here and um i'm sure the matzah has taught you that filler by the way is also no less an ingredient that when mispal that somehow should return if you feel that there is a need to apologize for something or even to say you made a mistake moshe rabbenu is a medicine pasha shemini where he said that anito isi for aaron limitly and he even added and now be mepharson that to the whole mahna isro what i'm saying is we shouldn't be afraid if we think there's a place for an apology to make it because if anything it increases the respect people have for us not the reverse so if you feel that going back you might touch on something say this may be hurtful but i would like to actually make a statement to you which may ease things a bit because apologizing is not easy it's not easy to forgive and it's not easy to apologize but it can break an ice wall so i hope what was said is some value i can't guarantee it you know your own situation and uh besides trying to relate to her i do feel that in all situations that we have hashem is there for us and atasha mayor to fill us kope three branch from hears and doesn't reject us the matter says in many places every single filler and the minister says even i think valero it is that even if we aren't worthy not we think we aren't we really aren't worthy even then the revenge from hears that filler and what is as precious as that filler of parents and typically this evening leo shabbos kodesh the phyllis of the mothers so these are moments when maybe we should be in for happy surprises pleasant surprises diabetes sell health maybe another question from this side or is it fair if i alternate our children yes need boundaries and structure as well i mean of course love is important and accepting them unconditionally but doesn't it also need to be complemented with balance not just would you like to just speak up a little bit because that yeah so with you know we always learn that in life we need to you know exude balance so with the unconditional love right so we also need to give you know structure instruction so well i mean you know a bit about tp right structure but even is that the word you intended forgive me because my hearing is not perfect um yeah structure and also boundaries when they're ready for it but they might not be this is this is a later stage when they're ready for some structure because half the problem with dysfunctional kids and kids who've got these struggles is that they're not living with boundaries they're not living with structure that is the kind of life that we live and we'd love them also to live but um because of the emotional situation it's very hard to live with structure see we are very conscious venezus man when is shabbos when is davning when is kiddish because we behave of living a more regular life with a seder this is very much what the torah trains us for hashem but these kids have opted out um i'm not sure that we can until we really feel they're ready for it and invite them to also share that they know it all they know it's all there it's like the sneer struggle they know what length the skirt should be they know what length sleeves should be etc etc etc so they are making a statement why because deep down they're hurting so we have to in a sense turn a blind eye to that and see whether we can get to the real problem but i think it may be necessary you know your situation it may be necessary to shelve the structure and the seder for the moment if your daughter's just not ready for it yes she is saying i want to do whatever i want what i feel like it's always about what i feel what i feel but you know when you're 13 it's not you know my actually but at that point that age it's not like as adults we we start with our minds and it goes into the heart right right but it might not register with them right should i go alternate i think you wanted to say something daughter and uh we're living not in a year ago so living in a city where a lot of things are not very easily to be attained like kosher cultures and all that stuff so she has a lot of uh not so good influences i would say not so good what's that influence influence influence of friends who are not wearing sneezes again she knows that one's supposed to eat kosher she knows which kind of friends you'd like to see her with she knows she knows it all right right so therefore the lecture is for sure not going to succeed and could make it worse so very largely it's the same answer very large it's the same answer and the acceptance does not mean that i'm totally okay with what you're doing and they know that as well they're smart enough to know that and so that even if you show the acceptance they understand it's what you as a man who knows sure but it's also that like the ibishda's relationship with us the bain kahu bainkak ruyimbonim that whether whether we are awesome or not islam is and that's what we want to show them as well that that part of it is unconditional and that you're my daughter your beloved daughter and i have patience and i'm optimistic that things will shape up with time i think so yeah the obvious the obvious demands which we're burning to say it's not going to be the answer who was it who said that what is insanity when you've done something 999 times and it failed and you do it the thousandth time so obviously and the whole idea of tp twisted parenting is that we're not doing the conventional kind of parenting we're not doing what everybody would normally say one should do and we're doing it quite a different way and this has proven itself to be successful it's proven itself to work right i go to this side again yes so you have a girl who's hurting you take her to a therapist a therapist helps right and then it's just and then you feel is the therapist working more in the mensch aspect not the yid aspect is that right right so then but there comes to a point where like you feel that the therapist is not there she's only there for the girls so sometimes it seems like they're putting divisions instead of trying to get the girl back with the family you know what i'm saying like it's all about the girl it's not about if there's nothing about the family when as a we know that really the kids are happier if they're part of their family they would be but this is you see you've touched something very general and obviously i know no one here and nobody's family but some families have caused problems and sometimes although the official policy that we hear at these meetings always is don't blame yourself sometimes it could be that the girl is having a very hard time in the family and the therapist to win her confidence has to devote herself at the beginning at least to the girl and what her struggles are and listen to her complaints also doesn't have children that age she's been that child maybe who's been in the whole you know but she has little children so most girls don't want to go to some 60 year old therapist that you know they want to go to a 30 year old a 35 year old but the 35 year old will also understand and so will the youngest of therapists that the right place for a child is their home and we did discover that when we had to place a girl elsewhere there's nothing like the real home however good that home will be it's not a complete answer it's at best a partial answer so you see sometimes the therapist will not be willing to talk to the parents sometimes the child won't give her permission to sometimes maybe that the therapist could feel that at this stage in the process we have to be once again very patient we can't take that step yet we have to deal with what is hurting the girl and we have to wait for the right time to begin to easing her way back home either partially or completely have you seen the booklet i brought it with me but i haven't even had a chance to unpack or to see my room yet there is a book with reports short reports from parents was given out at one of these um kashinavshi events and it showed comments from parents who bought hashem have seen samatha and you see how they thank hashemisborough for tiny tiny steps forward and how about emma's even a little thing to them mama gave them a simba you wouldn't imagine because what was what it was like beforehand was so was so grim so um yes the ideal is to come back and embrace the family and to feel part of it and to want to be there but it might be a long process till we get there right would say over the yes six seven months um our daughter has had a lot of exposure to um to media to youtube and videos and all the tick tock and all these other things and uh you know beyond the scope of our home um and she's managing to have it in the home and today we've kind of said you know we've given her what's happened or something but this is you know decline in her and her state of mind and her separation from us but so the question is like at what point do you say i'm wondering if there's a point that i would say okay you can have snapchat you can have tick tock in our house we're going to bother you versus versus just her continual going out of the house to find it anyway i'm not sure that i've quite um caught the point you want to make i had some thoughts but i'd like to answer you to the point so can you can you put in a nutshell then it could i guess we've had a battle over a certain technology we've not allowed other things the things we don't allow she finds a way to get them outside yes she will she will right so what point do we i mean is there like a tipping point where you would say allow whatever she wants and and at least it's in the home and she's not running somewhere else to get it i mean that's kind of like so father asked me recently and we agreed that if she does it in his presence if she does in his car with certain things he has in the car which she's able to access what she wants from it it's clearly better than if it's totally hefca but i wanted to give you a different point here which is real satisfaction these kids are not going to find in the things that they think they're craving for so we have to allow it to them only because we can't say no no no and we can't make the yiddish kite or even the mensler kite become a an unwelcome burden but it's not going to provide them with the real feeling that i'm a fully accomplished individual i've got a way ahead of me in life i've got potential for success etc etc it's more that they've got to wake up to that eventually themselves they've got to be able to see through the transparency of the superficial lifestyle of the world around them and that would make the turnaround i think so when you're allowing them a bunch of things it's to us as parents it should be only temporary until they recover in the sense of seeing this is no big deal it's not really doing it for me it's not really making me happy it's not making me content and it's not going to make me into a successful person does this is this a tool allow it in the home allowing them to experience it and come to you as a realization that it's not we'd like we'd we'd like them to come to the realization but a lecture is not going to do it and um forbidding things is not going to do it um you better ask the real experts and never pretended to be one of them but i do think that it's just part of a process the real experts well the one person i know the best who did call me originally to show up again at this conference is avi fishoff and um he must have more experience than anyone else way out then the next one definitely would be rabbishaman and definitely worth if you can catch him for a few moments definitely worth speaking to him if he disagrees with what i'm saying then take his word for it because he's definitely got much more experience but just bihalal we are aware as adults of the emptiness of the world around us and it's part of a search which is endless because they don't know what they're really really deep down looking for to this crowd who's here now i can say because the edition of shama will never be content with all that trash and it's got nothing to offer so ultimately we hope and this has happened many many times my daughter just told me a story about that somebody was in hollywood and so high up and so successful everybody around him was busy committing suicide and um well it's not 100 serious but there's a grain of truth in it and eventually he found his way to toyotamimo so that's our dream and that's our hope eventually and as said again and i think it's correct that we have to be misparalleled together with artist toddlers and hope that us that the young person will see through this holiness and this emptiness are we supposed to be finishing now is it no okay so you told me i just as i said i came out of the parking lot so i i only know this man of shabbos and otherwise and i better change beyond that i have no clue so do i have another question on this side on the right yes would you try to make it quite audible for me that i should be able to hear clearly and also answer clearly hopefully the seattle [Music] but i just want to deschamel another layer of how to reconcile with sneeze or the lack of it and even more than that like the choices you're talking about the sneers and even the dreams i don't know even with the why daughter son but like and they just break like all those things that you could never have believed like you know it's not just a boyfriend it's like really big decisions that they just choose so you're talking about sneers in dress and in what you do right right in their relationships and really no right now obviously the tava is very powerful right and again sneers they know the rules the concept probably not but i wonder whether the kids that we're talking about even understand or would accept the concept because the concept is based on the human being and especially the yid is a person with so much and so much more to them than meets the eye that we're doing an injustice to ourselves if we cheapen ourselves by dressing in that way but probably and the mothers will be able to tell me the girls that we're really thinking about this afternoon are not ready to hear that so once again for sure lecturing won't help and for sure objecting to what we don't like although it hurts us terribly will also not help what do we tell ourselves i'm sorry we're telling ourselves i'll tell you quite simply sorry what was the message how do we feel better the simple answer is do i have a choice am i doing what hashem wants if i do what i imagine will it work no i'm so am i doing the right thing answer is yes and for that you have and i do not pretend to be one of them but you have the mum here this meeting which every time there are more and more people in attendance and therefore they come for guidance from those who know just like you ask ishala from arov from a poisson and therefore and as i've heard of these meetings over and over and again that we should not blame ourselves and they are deeply hurting inside as avi fischer wrote in one of his um contraism it's not a healthy asov it is a sick jakov so it's not a healthy um it's not a healthy what we call a blimala but it's a sick bulimia who's not well not in the sense of physical health in the sense of emotional and spiritual and mental health so really what we have to do is try to help them in a way that works and the experts know what does work and avi has got a lot of success to his credit though others who try we said this over and over at many of these meetings the others who try the obvious way it's not working if it's not working then it's not what hashem wants us to do so sometimes what works best is patience tolerance it's a nissan like any other nissan something's gonna say someone's got a nissan in in the panos nothing to do with this particular parachute and this is a nissan and that's why we respect the parents who come here very deeply because they're dealing with a nissaian and they're willing to come and ask for guidance instead of pretending to be experts on their own so this is a great thing that when somebody comes along for this purpose and they're saying i want the guidance i want the aces of bigger people that is already a godless in a sense so are we doing the right thing yes showing up here is already doing the right thing is it not showing up here putting the questions to those who know i say i can only give you from my own experience which was not in the cases as extreme as what some people are going through now but definitely we did have girls coming to programs we had a few much more absolutely we can't we you can you cannot compete with the hori in that way you cannot compete with it so that they should abandon it and come to you and embrace you i don't think that's going to work so that she knows that my mother loves me she knows that the door is open whenever i want to come she knows that they never closed the door on me despite the way i showed up she knows that the shabbos table there's always a seat for me and if you read that booklet i forgot do you remember what it's called the booklet i brought it with me actually i'm sorry yeah thank you hashem yeah how many on their own at their own pace in their own time came back they did come back and that's the secret and the truth is to put it in an article just this week in the end whether it's to do with filler or shabbos or casseroles or sneers it's got to come from them it can't come from us because they know that's where we're holding that's no they know that's what we're about and they're trying something else so if we handle it wisely with the guidance of those who really know there is at least a chance that that moment that moment that we're waiting for that moment of goo of person goula will occur but if we distance ourselves from them by nagging them or putting pressure on them or threatening them of course we're only delaying or making that moment impossible okay yes well letting them to do what they want is gonna affect the other kids so that is a question that we've had recurring again and again i find this a very difficult one and i know avi's answer abby fisher feels that the other kids say to themselves i'm not sick i'm healthy and well i don't want this stuff this is medication that you only give to a sick person i don't want that medication so i don't want that great big tv screen in my room because i'm healthy i'm a bearcat girl and i'm carrying on life like any other so he feels and i cannot um i cannot argue with it he feels that the chances are that the siblings will reject it they won't want it now has it ever happened i do not know it maybe it has happened but al piroid that's what he feels is the outcome i don't want this treatment because i'm not sick and the parent can say with great with great tact at the right moment with shiata dismayed listen she needs this hashem you don't need it so there's no big deal in it for you if you want to copy it you don't want it you don't want a strong medication that the doctor never prescribed for you it can it's not going to do you any good and it it might look attractive on the outside it isn't now will it will this work i cannot guarantee you but that that that is the approach that i was told that the one should take i know these aren't aren't easy ones i do know that yes again it would be helpful [Music] does that answer will that answer be of any effect that one child that's going through his thing and everyone else looks at that oh never but in some family the younger children look up to their older siblings and they also want to do this and they also want to do that and it's you this this answer i'm giving you off the cuff it can but i'd like to give you an answer of the cuff but i cannot um confirm that this is going to work and that is to say this is the med again this is the medication she's taking now i really don't believe it's going to make you happy i'm not going to offer you an answer for the sake of it i'd rather say for now for this present moment i do not have an answer which would be good enough so i have to be honest well again the thing that i was told always was to explain to the healthy kids you're fine do what you want you're walking with crutches for you can walk on two healthy legs why are you sitting in a wheelchair you can go on your own right why do you need all these meds you're fine and explain to them why am i tolerant why am i letting let's say miriam wear this miniskirt and all of a sudden where what is my own hassage of sneers answer is because she is hurting deeply inside and for the moment that is what she thinks she needs and that's what she feels is going to ease her pain it's a temporary measure right it's so the question is how best to relate to the siblings it's i'm not saying it's an easy one but what's the messages i was getting when i was more involved in this field was that the siblings do not necessarily want it now i hear about the domino effect i guess there could be such a situation um a little bit might depend on how strong the family is bihlal in the yiddish kite in their simcha with it in their satisfaction with it and the way the family is conducted whether it is by lecturing or by example there's so many different ingredients that can make or break it okay right now i don't know is anyone here to tell me what time because i know there's a shabbos coming so what time are we meant to wrap up it is friday isn't it yeah okay have a relaxing shabbos and hopefully it can be of help to you