Kedushat Beit Knesset | Rabbi Yossi Goldin | July 15 2025

everybody. Um, nice to see everyone again. I apologize that I missed uh I missed last week. Um, but looking forward to to learning today and and as always um we uh we ask that our learning should be a a zoot or nish those who have uh recently perished in this in this very very long war. Um it should be form should be for the return of our and um Hashem should heal all those who have been affected um by this war. And of course as we always end with God should give guidance to our leaders to make the right decisions. Okay. Uh what I wanted to do this week is we're going to be finishing up a topic that we had been discussing last week last class two weeks ago. Um we were in the middle of a very very long essay by Salvich. We're not going to read through the whole essay. Uh we were in the middle of it. But I did want to highlight uh the second part the second aspect of what Rossalik talks about. Two weeks ago we were discussing uh the importance of davening in a betakness and we we were in the middle of a of a very very beautiful essay by Rossalvich called the synagogue as an institution and as an idea. And what I'd like to do is is just highlight um Roselovich tried to um talk about the concept of a shul of a of a synagogue in two different ways. We got to the first one. We didn't get to the second one. I'd like to finish and do that second point which I think is a very very beautiful concept. Um and then from there we're going to then discuss another topic connected to shuls which is the concept of kadushket. um the holiness of the shul, what's appropriate to do in a shul, some practical um issues that arise regarding appropriate behavior within within a shul. So what I before we before we get into into into Rosselvich, I'd like to first look at source number one because the the idea that we're going to see in roselvich is based off of this gumar. The gammor in source number one says something very interesting. Tanya There are two sins that cause an amar. An amarit is generally considered to be somebody who is ignorant, somebody who is not as knowledgeable. Um or another way of understanding it is the other nations. This is what causes them to to dieh that when they refer to the aron kesh when they refer to the aron uh in a shul they call it an ara. Uh again I'm not we're not we're not going to focus on that point but there's some kind of name that they give some nickname they give to the aon kesh the alet whenever they refer to a shul they call it instead of calling it a shul instead of calling it a betet what do they call it a bet okay that because of these names there's something derogatory or considered or or negative about these names that these people give and therefore it's considered wrong. Um Rafalik in in the second part of the essay focuses on the second thing. He focuses on the second thing that this Gimarra says. He says, "What is wrong with calling a bet?" What would be what what how would you translate the beta? >> A community center, right? A place for the community, a place for the nation. If anything, that sounds somewhat positive. What's wrong with a beta? That that's Rafalik's question. So, please um turn with me. I gave you the whole uh this isn't the whole essay. I took a lot of different parts of it, but we're going to go to the second page in the middle of source number two. I'm sorry, in the middle of source number two, the second page about four lines down, sorry, four paragraphs down, one, two, three, where Rossalvich starts with one line, bet conveys a second meaning as well. Okay, so the first thing that Rosalvich noted when he was referring when we talked about betakness was that is that there is that a beta does not mean the house of God. This is what we saw earlier, but rather it refers to the home of God. What's the difference between a house and a home? A home has a c has a different type of a connotation. Home is where you go when you want to return to your roots. Home is where you go when you're looking for a certain sense of connection. Salvich, we saw last time actually suggests that isn't the home of God as much as much as it is the home of man where he meets God. That this is what we have designated as the place where we connect with Hashem. And therefore, that is where the significance of the shul is. That was Rouselves's first idea. But look at the second idea. And again, I'm bringing this to you because I think his words and the way he develops it is uh is is much better than any summary I could give you. I did it is a very long essay. So I did um skip certain parts but hopefully I was able to to capture the essence. Betakessa conveys a second meaning as well. There was a strange passage in track 8 Shabbat and that was the garra that we just saw. The garra says that if you refer to a bait as a bait, that is what causes people to die early. asks the gar the follow or says the following. The name of the second sin of substituting the word bet for bet is not obvious. What does bet mean in simple language? House of assembly. Similarly, what does mean? A house of the people, a house of the multitude, a house of the you know of of the community. What is the semantic difference between beta kesset and beta? The Talmud considered the substitution of am for kesset a very serious offense. The answer to this problem lies in aic concept namely the idea of Salvik now goes on to develop something that is very prominent the world of which is a concept of what is a what is what is a shal a messenger right in today's society a meal is someone you send to go deliver things for you okay sorry >> intermediary also good good correct is somebody you send on behalf of yourself yes a representative excellent Okay. And in the world of Shalia is very prominent as well. If I'm not able to do c there are certain mitzvot that I can't send a sh to do, but there are many mitzvot where if I'm unable to do it, I can send somebody on my behalf in order to do it for me. But then goes on to to develop is that the concept of is a little bit different than the way that we often refer to it in the rest of the world. The rest of the world we refer to it as I guess the best way is a proxy. And what's a proxy? A proxy is somebody who I give power to do things on my behalf. Roalik brings a number of examples where in the world of a shal does much more than that where the doesn't just isn't just my pro he's not just doing it on my behalf he's actually becoming me that in certain areas of where I am necessary to be a part of or to do a certain action my ability to appoint a shal means the shalia almost becomes me in certain ways the shalia represents me And not just like, oh, you can sign on my behalf. When you sign this document, when you do this action, you are doing it in my place. And based off of that, Salvich continues to continue where we were up to in the in in the source. The whole institution of and the synagogue which is dedicated to rests upon the idea of let me explain what is a tibbor and this is an important distinction that salvic makes of course in the vernacular we identify tibbor with minion right when we talk about ding with often what we mean is domining with a minion what is a minion 10 people and there's usually an interchange we refer to dinging with a minion domining with a tabore it's the same thing we do not say tort is the scholarly phrase for which minion is the colloial expression meaning we usually say I have to find a minion and what we mean is I'm ding with the t-b so what then is a minion says salvich 10 jews together the number 10 when you have 10 that is a minion in this is this equation of t with minion correct technically it is correct however philosophically it is wrong perhaps it is wrong not only philosophically but hakically as In order to understand the word seabore, we have to give our attention to the term corbud. So salvichetic is suggesting that even though we often interchange the concept of minion and seabore, they are actually not the same. Minion refers to 10 people coming and doing something. Seabore means something much much different and much more significant. He says for example there's a concept of corbanet seabore. What is a corban seabore? Anyone know? The whole community refers to the concept that there are there are many different types of corbonote that were brought. There were corbanote when an individual would come to the beta mikdash and bring a corban. And then there were corbanote that the entirety of the people needed to bring. For example, the corban tamid, the korban that was brought out every single day was brought on behalf of the entire people. All of the corbanote of the khagim, a corban musaf is a corban sibore. If there were certain sins that occurred throughout the entire community, there were corbando that needed to be brought on behalf of the entire those are referred to as corban ci. So so it says salvichek really what is a cibore? Cibbor doesn't just mean 10 people. Cibore in its real sense of the word means the entirety of the Jewish people. Is a reference to Israel as a whole. just to read his words. Of course, with regards to Corban is to be equated with adah with adah is and not with a minion refers to the entire community. In other words, visa vorban signifies the entire Jewish covenantal community. If 10 people get together, he makes a different point. This is an important point. If 10 people get together and jointly bring a sacrifice, let's say 10 individuals decide to bring a corban together, that's not called a corband sib. That's called a kabur or another a more accurate in terms well that's for forban pesak it's called a kabur but a more accurate term would be it's called a kurban what's a kurban a corban of partners 10 people who decided to bring it together so there's a big difference between when 10 people decide to bring a corban that's called korban but yet when the community as a whole brings a corban that's a k that's a corban sabore the latter would so he says if 10 people would not would get together and jointly bring a sacrifice The latter would not be considered a corban that is aban since the term is related to the entirety of the Jewish community. Now we have to get back to the concept of hence the term of tilat refers not to 10 people but to the Israel or rather kesset Israel. And now says something very astounding. He says every single time we davin as a group and we call that corban sib we're not just dvening as a group of 10 people who are davening together we're actually representing the entirety of Israel God hearkens to prayer of the entire community as a whole to prayer offered by the adat Israel in its entirety no one must be excluded for example we say and this we say we say specifically on and in general byot And then we say that God will only be sanctified throughout all of Israel Israel amongst Ben Israel only within all of the people in the midst of the community will I be sanctified and the derives from these words the famous conclusion in that there is no concept you can't say you can't say kadusha you can't say there are things that anything which is called a davarikat has a certain level of sanctity cannot be said without aore without a community >> I'm sorry >> oh you mean who said that seabore that's an interesting I don't know I never heard that I never that that that the word seabore is an acronym for I mean I mean it fits in with the idea that we say especially especially when we say on we say that that that we're domining with with the avaryan we're domining alto together the idea That's a beautiful idea. I never heard that that that that SEO what it does is it brings we we spoke about how one of the values of a seor is that the power of the collective enables us to be able to overcome the deficiencies of the and therefore it enables people right the power of a collective enables people us to overcome the deficiencies of specific individuals who are dominating that that that is beautiful that enables everyone to come together in in a beautiful way >> assembly correcting >> very Okay, let's let let's let's keep going because he's going to highlight it beautifully. He says the question is obvious. We're on the last the last paragraph of the second page. On the one hand, the Torah states only in the midst of all of the people Israel shall I be sanctified and not in the presence of just part of the people. Doesn't say and yet on the other hand this says at the recital of kadusha we're allowed to say in the presence of just 10 old men. How could we reconcile the words of the Torah that kaduca must be recited in the presence of the entire community? Excuse the uh the typo. To the exclusion of no one with our daily practice where we are satisfied with 10 people. The answer lies in the self-evident fact that in permitting 10 people on the next page now to recite to say to answer sorry we're on the we're on page I think it's page three the top to answer operated with the idea of now we're getting back to the concept of that when 10 men or a group of Jews get together to davin they are now officially theim of all of Israel. They represent all of Israel operating with the idea of which as I said is not to be equated with proxy. The 10 are the representatives of the Israel. They are theim of the people as a whole. And in keeping with our interpretation of they're not only representatives. They're not only ambassadors of Kalai Israel, they are the Kalai Israel in a strange mystical way. They impersonate not fictionally but artistically but existent not artistically but existentially and become Israel. In other words, when 10 people in Yeshua offer their prayers, the entire Knesset Israel prays with them. They are the Knesset Israel. That is why Kadusha is permitted through them. And then he goes on to say, we didn't bring this for you. actually goes on to suggest that this isn't just true of them representing AmIrael who are alive today, but they represent all of AmIrael, what's known colloquially as Knesset Israel, all the way from the back to the beginning of Jewish history until the end of Jewish history because we as Knesset Israel exist beyond time. Fundamentally, there is only one prayer. Fundamentally, there is only one Sabbore. The invisible Knesset Israel embracing the past, the present, and the future. Praise with every minion. The Tibbor in the synagogue is the micro Knesseta Israel of 10, which represents personifies the macro community of the invisible Knesset Israel. And now, Cerse, we can get back to our initial question. The initial question we asked on the Gmorrah was what's wrong with calling it instead of calling it betet says when you call it beta and you don't refer to it in its proper name of betet you're missing out on one of the most fundamental aspects of ding in a kesset with a tibor and that is that when we ding with a betet we are capturing the essence of kesset is we becomeet Israel looking at the shul as simply a place to gather. Not that not that gathering is wrong. And by the way, we're going to highlight soon. We're going to talk a little bit about how a shul does act as a place of gathering also means a place of gathering. But says it means so much more. Look at final paragraph. We asked above why the halak is so meticulous regarding the name. What is wrong with beta? Why did our sages say that it was a serious offense to substitute beta for betakness? The answer is now simple. The beta is the home of the great invisible kesset is through which all ages and throughout through all ages and millennia. A beta is a house for contemporaries. However, to pray with contemporaries is not enough. One must pray with the entire covenantal community which is present in the betaknesset and the kaduca vet is due to that mysterious mysterium tremendum. That's rvichic's uh wonderful language. The latter sus suspends all three d time dimensions. The past is not gone yet. The future has yet arrived. And we the 10 people the minion who live in the present unite both past and future. A beta kesset is the home of prayer as was pointed above because it is the because it is the home and this is the point where you bring the two together. The reason it's the home of prayer is because it is the home of the great Knesset Israel and ipso facto the home where al where almighty has a rendevu with the kesset Israel and so zetic in very very beautiful fashion as you can see why I thought it was important that we see some of this language inside is highlighting one of the most important aspects of what ashul is we talked we've talked before about how davining andul is about connecting everyone together the power of the community and the impact that has or salvich has taken this to a new level that when we dive in with a minion In a shul what we are doing is we are tapping into the entirety of we are representing we are we becomeet Israel in a very very powerful way in some kind of mystical way we connect all of am we represent all of am isel and there's something very very powerful about that both mystic on a mystical level as well as practically thinking about and understanding that when we dive and we've talked about this before how the texts that we're saying are tapping into the history of all of Am Israel that the text itself the doing that we do although it's different is was different in communities throughout the years fundamentally the things we're saying it's what it's what defines and connects all all of am and and therefore I thought that this was an important another an important aspect for us to be highlighting of the power of davining with a minion and the power of davining in a beta kesset recognizing that when we do in a betakness what we're doing is we're tapping into and we're becoming part of the greater kesset is so that was just something that I wanted to finish because We had been in the middle of it last week and I wanted to what highlight that what I'd like to do now is pivot to a a connected sorry this question or comment please. mentioned as >> I mean >> why don't we why is that why is that not the colloquial phrase >> so so first of all well I could actually I could I could I could I could answer your first question with your second question but um so I I think that number one I think you I Number one, it is a bet. There's no question. But I think I would say two things. My this is my own understanding of it. First of all, I think the hangup is is because as said, sometimes what sometimes the hangup is because you're you want to be able to highlight and remind yourself of all the different ideas. Meaning if we just refer to as one that's true it is a butic is pointing out that it's so much more. And sometimes the way that we talk about things and the way that we describe things impacts our our vision of them, what we do, how we approach them. And therefore, it's important. Again, I don't I don't I don't know, but it's that the source number one is nagara. Nagata doesn't necessarily mean that if we actually call it beta one time, that means that all of a sudden we're going to dy. What it means is it's capturing something about what it's a lesson about what the sh is supposed to be and how we're supposed to look at it. Does that mean we can never call it that? I think it means is this. This is this is when we think about a shul, we think about a beta. This is the vision we should be having and that's where I think what I think Rosselovich is highlighting. >> So I I think I think it is. I think it is. Now again now the challenge becomes and this is we're actually going to get to today which is well what happens if you do too much with it. What what does that what does that mean? For example, we're going to get to today the the concept of the kadusha of the betakness and what is and and what what can be done in a bet meaning should maybe a bet should only be a place where you pray. Can you eat in a bet? Can I talk with my friends in the betakness? Meaning you're pointing you are pointing out that sometimes if you just look at it as something much larger than just a place to davin. What you lose is remembering what the main point is which is to davin. So you have to have both. There's no question. There's no question that a bet and what we're going to also I think see that I think is more than just a house of prayer but it is fundamentally a house of prayer. And I don't think we can lose that. Um I hope I'm I hope I'm I'm answering your question. I think you're right that we have to make sure that we don't lose the fact that ultimately right I I I I I joke about this but sometimes we talk about it that like you know in some places people come to shu and they don't even come to Davin they come they come to sit in the back and >> smoo >> okay so yes I do believe and again it's shifting it's shifting here dramatically Um I do believe that um what's generally understood is that whereas in America shuls have become much more than just a bila have become a community center on some level even though you have JCC's but they've become much more than that which is why the structures are significantly different. the role of the rabbi is significantly different. The the overall attitude towards it is is significantly different. Whereas here it's become a place to do it. Now that's not a bad thing, right? Because sometimes I think when you when you have the in America they become much more you people forget about the fact that you're supposed to be doining and not just coming for kdish and coming for although those things are important. The doining is the main thing. The question is is is that you want to find that right balance. I think people here and especially it's happening I think as more people make aliyah and more people who come from those Anglo communities and that vision of what it was make aliyah and they're saying I want something more I don't the reason the reasons used to not be that the reasons in Israel were generally just places to stop is because that was what was needed or at least that's what they felt they needed okay they said we have the irri when you live in a Jewish in a Jewish country so certain things that you're used to your schul doing taking care of weddings taking care of burial taking care of of mikvah many things that the shul was import was a part of now the irya does now the city does and therefore for what do I need the shul for? I need the shavin. But what people I think have realizing more and more is that shul is not just a place to do. It's a place to connect. It's a place to be able to connect and and and I think again to each their own, right? if there's a community and people feel like they're able to spiritually get what they need to get and it comes from without having a rabbi and just having mata man but I think people are people maybe shuls didn't even realize what they were missing and now they're coming to realization that that there is a value to having more of a community feel to that to the to those sher method and a base metric and the base was more in terms of rule. The other thing I want to ask you is nobody between the time of the rap. >> Oh, you mean explain that Gamarra? I'm sure there were. I I'm sure I'm sure there were. I will I will be I'll be very honest. I didn't do my due diligence in researching all the answers to this kamarra. Meaning meaning I was really building I really the focus for me was on was on this essay that I wanted to highlight what he was doing and I brought you that kamarra. I'm sure I'm sure there's different explanations for exactly what the issue is. on that says something similar. Yeah. So he says her first says something similar. I'm sure and I'm sure the basic aonium and you know again I'm sure there are many people who give other explanations but this was a salvage explanation >> who initiated the term beta I mean I mean it exists it exists it exists in the garamas exists in in early sources. Who actually came up with the term beta? I'm not sure. It's a good question. I know that I know that remember hearing that that that rev refers to the fact that we we call a we call a we call it a shul and a shul is from the language of a school which is it's meant to teach you okay so that's that's very interesting also >> right no so so >> so you're asking a very good question which you're touching on something else which is I think I think you're also asking for example what was there historically when there was a bet was there also And historically their understanding was there were shools over the sh were placed with people where people gathered to say certain filot even though much was said in the beta mikdash but you're but this is a great transition because what you're basically asking is is our shul modeled after the beta mikdash because if it is then in terms of rules and kusha and things you can or can't do maybe modeled after that which would make it much more restrictive and we're going to and that what I'd like to do is I'd like to now look at a little bit of the sources trying to understand the status of a shul the status of a betakness and therefore the repercussions and ramifications of what can or can't be done in a shul um which I I think we all agree we see are we tend to be rather lax in terms of how what we do in aul the question is is that justified and where does that come from yes last question before we go on >> absolutely >> all interconnected absolutely I think the fact that >> I feel that when you're in When you concentrate on prayer, you also are concentrating on relating to saying I am part of >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I think they're all I think they're all correct. I think everybody is different and that's why each person needs to understand what what they connect with. But I 100% agree that I I personally also find that when I'm diving with a community, the social aspect impacts my the impacts. There's a lot of interaction. Some people are different. Some people say no. When I'm around people, I get distracted and I can't focus. Everybody has to. But so or or down at home or or or do or or find an area that's less distracting for you within the shul meaning everybody has to figure out that but but I agree with you that that social piece is a major they are very much hand in hand and and do feed off of each other. That's an excellent point. Okay. So the gamarra here we're going to let now move to source number three. The garra uh we know that we know that we've seen before that the shul is referred to as a mikdash meat. We saw that in earlier sources when we discussed the bit the beginning of the importance of a shul which means that a shul is considered to be a mini sanctuary a mini in fact sanctuary whenever I say sanctuary I think of that's what we used to that's what that in America that's what they refer to as the main shu we call it the main sanctuary I think in today to this day that's still the word that's used when we refer to the main the main minion the main sanctuary where the where the shul is okay so then we know that on some level a shul is meant to be modeled after the beta mikdash the question is how far do we take that in terms of what's allowed to be done or not allowed to be done in a shul. So look at the gumar in source number three it's a migila and the garra is discussing what you're allowed to sell or if you sell something of a certain level of kusha what can be purchased with that money because if you sell something that has a certain level of kusha you can only purchase things that have also a certain level of kusha with that money because the money achieves a certain level of sanctity as well. So the Mishna says the following. If the people of a city sold a certain street, then you're allowed to then use that money to buy a shul. Why? Because when you purchased the shul, it's going up in its because before it was just a regular street and now you're buying a a a shulket. If you p if you sold a betaket, you're allowed to purchase ava. Okay, ava is a reference to to an area either the kesh or that holds certain objects of kadusha. Okay, again, we're going up in levels of holiness that as you sell something of a lower level of holiness, you're also allowed to then purchase something which is a higher level of holiness. But you can't do the opposite. For example, if you sell a safer Torah, you can't buy an you can't buy a because the safer Torah has a higher level of holiness. That's what it says at the very end. If you sell to Torah, you can't just buy with that money. I believe is a reference to the covering of the safer Torah. Okay. Basically, when you per when you have something of kadusha, you can only purchase something of a higher level of kadusha with that money. You can't purchase something of a lower level of kadusha with that money. Okay. What we see from this gimmar without getting into all of the practical details is that already on this list has some level of kadusha. It has some level of holiness because we could have said it's a room where we dive in and that's it. But we see clearly from this Mishna there is some level of holiness and there is a mlo an argument in the rishonim what how high the level of holiness the shul has is for example in source number four the raman the ramban says something very very interesting we're just going to look at the underlined the underlined part of the ramban the second paragraph in source number four the ramban is bringing a number of different sources that seem to contradict each other regarding the status of the holiness of and he says vesar deet mitzvah. The status of a shul is that of what we call a tash mitzvah. Tashmish mitzvah means that some it's an object that is used for a mitzvah, which means it is imbued with holiness while you're using it, but once you finish using it, it no longer maintains that holiness. For example, he says lul love or suka. For example, the walls of a suka. Okay. So the walls of a suka on sukus while it's being used for a mitzvah have a certain level of holiness and there things you can or cannot do with those walls. The second sukus is over and you're no longer using this for the mitzvah of suka. You're allowed to use those walls to to to do whatever you want with them. They no longer maintain or retain their kusha. They only have their kadusha during the time that they are being used for the mitzvah. You still should be very you still should you still you still should dispose of them in a more respectful way than you would something else. For example, the lula very often we say you should put it in a bag and then put it in the garbage or many people have the midhug to hold on to it if you manage to be able to do this to hold on to it and burn it on pes that we take one mitzvah and use it for another mitzvah. That's not a that's a mhug. Um, but you so you still should treat it with a certain level of of cavode because it was used for a mitzvah, but it the level of it no longer has any kusha once the mitzvah is over says the Raman the same thing as of a while the shul is being used for the mitzvah of so it has a certain status of kadusha. The second the community decides they no longer want to use this space for the mitzvah of felah then okay you have you should treat it with more respect than maybe other things but it no longer has a level of kaduca. Now this is a very important point regarding the question of what you can do. Let's say let's say let's say the sh decides it wants to it needs it wants to it wants to you know it wants to sell it uh sell the building. Are you allowed to do that? There's a big debate about whether that's allowed or not. According to the Ramban, it's more allowed because once the community decides, I'm no longer using this space for then you would be allowed to do certain things that you normally wouldn't be allowed for a place that has kadusha. One second. So that's the opinion of the Raman. That's the mo that's the most lenient opinion regarding the status or the level of kadusha that we have in the beta which is it's like kadusha tash mitzvah. Once it when you're using it, it has kadusha. When you stop using it, it no longer has that same kadusha. Other rishonim disagree. the Ran, for example, in source number five, again, we're only going to see the highlights. The Ran in source number five, he quotes the Ramban, and he asks a number of questions on the Ramban. And then he says, he says, I he says, I I disagree with the Ramban. I don't think the Ramban the Ramban's analysis is correct. And then again, we just getting to the main part. This is the underlying part. He says, "Therefore, I believe that a shul and something similar since this is a location where we invoke the name of God and we say therefore rabbitically the shul has a certain level of kadusha more than just not just when you're using it. has it. Even when you're not using it, even when they decide not to, there's a rabbitic level of kusha that is imbued in the shul by virtue of the fact that it is used for virtual the fact of what it is used for in terms of domining and coming and connecting to Hashem. But many rishonim and this is the third opinion the most severe actually suggest that the kadusha that has is mid ora is biblical and it is patterned after the kadusha of the beta mikdash. Look at source number six. Source number six is a safer uranium also one of the rishim and he has a list of the different mitzvot and one of the mitzvot that he lists is mo mikdash is having fear or awe of the beta mikdash in his description of describing the mitzvah of having awe and fear of the beta mikdash. He mentions shul look at the underlined part. The Pik says you should have fear of God. When a person enters the bet and then he says oh that you need to have a certain fear for just like you would he even compares it to the beta mikdash. You have to have a fear in when you walk into the shul or walk into a bess or a bish. Again, we're skipping just for time purposes. Look at the the next underlined part. When the Torah says, "You should fear or have awe for my mikdash." Included in that command is what we refer to as the betet, what we refer to as bish that there is a a biblical kusha to a shul and to a base maj. So we have three opinions so far. We've seen in the rishim one opinion is the level of kadusha that mikdash that that aul has is similar to tashmish mitzvah which means when you do it it has kadusha but when you stop using it it no longer has its kadusha which is the most lenient. The second opinion is that of the RH which is there is rabbitic kusha that is imbued upon the shul because of how we use it. And the third is the uranium who suggests no there is actual mid ora kusha on a shul parallel to in similar fashion like there was in the beta mikdash. Okay. Yes. There was a comment or a question. >> You mean they you mean they bought they bought a mosque or a church in order to build a shul or the opposite? Right. Okay. So you're so you're again we're not I I don't want to get too much into too much of the practical there's a whole big question regarding if there is kusha what can be done meaning with it how can you sell it when can you sell it if you can sell it what it can be used for etc. They're all great questions. I don't want to get into all of those details just simply because I wanted to focus more on not not that that's not important but I think for us it's more a question of things that we do eating talking these are certain practical things that I wanted that I wanted but is it is it is a very good question I'll even say more than that there was a big huckic discussion this is a big question was um when during 2005 in the disengagement um when when when when in Gaza when in in uh in the whole area of Gaza all the Jews were taken out and the question was what do you do with the shuls and of Yakavariel as a whole has a whole chuva. The question was we know what's going to happen if we leave them which is actually what happened was we left them and what did the Arabs do? They went in and they just totally destroyed them. On the other hand, you're not supposed to destroy Ashul. So if we actively destroy it, should we actively destroy it? And that was a big kaki discussion. In the end, Ravariel told them that they should leave it because whatever they would do is not worse than what we would do. I mean I think that's debatable. I mean, I think it was disgrace, but in the end of the day, the way the the methods that they have to destroy it, which was burning it and anything like that, it's probably the way that we would have done something or they used bulldozers to totally destroy it and raise it is what we would have done anyway. Um, but it's but it's it's it's a very very important question of what you're allowed to do and it all revolves around this meaning according to the Ramban according to the Ramban once the schul decides this is no longer a place where we're dabbing you should be able to sell it and do whatever you want with it. Um but according to the uranim who's the most stringent who says this is just like a beta mikdash of many mikdash then we it would be more stringent and that's just a question of how we pusk in I think we generally paskin like the uranium in many different ways which is that we do look at it very very in a very stringent way that we have to keep a certain kadusha which means there must be certain ways that they that that people who sell it to a church or to other things I don't know exactly how they what hakic basis they're using but there must be some way that they that they're able to do it. Okay. So what I'd like to do now is is is get to the question of for us also because based on what we're seeing so far this has a status of like the beta mikdash doesn't mean doesn't mean literally the beta mdash where you get to take where you had to go to the mikvah before you went to the beta mikdash take off your shoes meaning but it means that this has a level mid ora of kusha of holiness and yet I'm sure many of us are familiar with many shuls where you walk in people are eating people are talking I'll even say more there are many shuls that are you know considered very very and right after diving What do they do? They put away they move the tables to the side and they have kdish or they have shallis in the shul in the sanctuary. How is that how is that allowed? How is that allowed? And and and and is there is there is there is there an allowance for that? So the main basis for that actually comes from um another gamarra. We're going to skip to that gamarra right now in source number 10. And the gamarra says the following. And this is going to be the basis for understanding many of the leniencies that we have specifically regarding how we act in shari source number 10. All of the sh in. And here seems to be an understanding. It's referring to all the sh in not necessarily just they were built on conditional but nevertheless we shouldn't treat them frivous. We we shouldn't act frivolously in the shi what does it mean that they were built alani says theote to take an accounting says the following concept when we built the shul we it was built and this is assumed says the garra for all shs built in why specifically it's because those shs we believe are ultimately going to be trans according to kazal are going to be uprooted and transplanted back in and therefore they had to be built alai what it means is that when I built when I built the sh in America or when my my when when my community in England New Jersey built a beautiful sh that they have it was built alai with an understanding that it's not going to be imbued with the full kadusha it was there was there was an understanding that every shul built in is does not attain the status of kadusha that we normally give to ashul because it was built with this understanding that it's going to be moved it's going to be treated differently by the way that does highlight is that Already we talk about the difference between so that means that every has a lower level of kush although we're going to see that many of ours today here in also are built alai with a certain with a certain condition once you build it alani says the garra therefore although you should not act frivolously in the shul many of those things which shouldn't be done in a standard shul can be done in a shul that's built alanai because you stipulated from the from the beginning that you didn't want to imbue this building or this shul with the standard and that is what enables you to do certain things for example the say to deal with certain accountings to talk about certain not necessarily inappropriate things but things that are more mundane you're allowed to do in a shul if it was built alai >> is there an advantage to >> it's a good question um I would say there's pro it's probably it's probably a double-edged sword because on the one hand you could say um and and again We're going to see soon that according to many of the modern postkim almost all of our shooles are built with that certain understanding of altani. We'll see why. On the one hand you could argue it has a lower level of kadusha. On the other hand you're less accountable for the things you might do or say. So so it's a very very good question. Um on the one hand we all want to do it. It's the same thing going to the cotell right? You want to do you want to go to the cult you want to go to the holiest place and you want to have the place that mystically has the highest level of kadusha. On the other hand you also have to be much more careful about how you act in those places. So which one is better for a person to dive in? I believe that to you to everyone to to to think about themselves. But but I think we are being safer by by having schools that are built alana when we're especially when we're dealing with a with with a with a full community. The question is what exactly does does this mean? Meaning what does it mean when we say that it's built alani? So what understanding in the rishonim and this is the rush and this is this is the the rush is a rish source number 11. We're not going to see it inside. He basically understands this gamarra differently than this is standard approach. He says when it says alani that you can build a shulan and that enables you to do certain things that you normally can't do in shul he says that's only once it's destroyed normally a shul that has full kaduca once it's been destroyed you still cannot do certain things but if you build it all tonight you can what that means for us is that practically it doesn't help us in any way while the sh is still standing while is still standing says the rush even if it's built on condition you still have to treat it with the same kusha as you would any shul there's no you don't get any advant advantage by building an ali that's the Russia's opinion however other is say no this concept of building a shul alai is a gamecher when you build a alai it now obviously you can't act frivolously you can't do c you can't do inappropriate things in a shul but things that would be considered mundane can be done in a shul because when you built it you stipulated that you were building it you were building it al tonight the question is who do we pus like do we paskin like the rush who is more strict who seems to say that even if you build a shai, you still need to treat it with the same level of kadusha or dokin like the other who say no if you build it alai then that enables you to do more to do more within the shul without violating its kadusha. So interestingly enough the who is the main source for our as ourer he poskins like the rush he seems to be strict he poskins like the rush and he says even if you build a that only enables you to be lenient about it once it's destroyed but when the shul is still standing you have to be just as careful as you would for any shul comes the mishnabura and the mishnabura says I apologize I'm going a little bit fast just because of time the mishnabura comes and comments in the ber says that's not the minhug. He says if you look all around most of the are of the opinion that if you build a shuli if you build if you stipulate that when you build the shul you're building it with a certain understanding that you're not imbuing it with the standard level of kadusha that enables you even while is standing to be able to do more mundane things within the sanctuary and there and that is what we is that that was what we hold now just one just one comment I just want to to make sure to make a couple of other comments and this is there's a fascinating Uh there's a fascinating chuva in source number 17. I'm just going to mention it quickly by the dra the was the was the tanzerbi the previous sanzerebi the tanerebi who was a nit shawah who uh who was saved from the holocaust. Unfortunately his wife and 10 children were were killed in the holocaust. He then moved to natana and got remarried rebuilt his family and rebuilt the community of tons. There's now a community called kuryatans in in natana north natana a beautiful flourishing community. um was all founded by the Dreheim. He also founded Laniato Hospital which is a hospital there in in in Italy and he makes the following suggestion. He says that our shs nowadays do not have the same stat do not have the status of a basakesset because when we build a shul nowadays we have in mind that we're not just going to be domining there but we're going to be gathering there. We're going to be smoozing with each other. We're going to be socializing that the way in which we envision the way especially I would say in in in Kutzlar where the shul has become the community. Now by the way when I talk about a I don't even mean the other rooms. The other rooms obviously can be used for meaning the the the you know the outside hall the downstairs those can certainly all be used for whatever we would for other things. We're talking about the sanctuary. What can the san because the sanctuary is what's called the bet and says that even the sanctuary when when nowadays when we build sh we build it with the intention that is going to be a place for us to gather a place for us to to talk to schmoo. Now obviously it should be appropriate but it's okay if we do those things within the shul because that is how what we have in mind when we when we build it and I'm sure this is certainly true of almost all communities when they build their shul they're not always thinking about just the but about everything surrounding it which is also as you pointed out part of what increases and and helps the the experience the last the last comment I want to make or the last source I want to see which is very interesting is is is a tr by was asked whether or not a person who is blind is allowed to bring his seeing dog or whatever the terminology is forgive me seeing eye dog I think into shul or is that a violation of the kusha of the shul and salvage and excuse me here points out that the min has been that we use the shul for for other things for example he points out that many shuls after dvening they clear away the tables and they have a kdish or they have a shellish and that's considered acceptable as long as it's done within the framework work of Kadusha on some level of of therefore he says the same thing would be true here. We as as a community by that I mean the larger Jewish community when we build our sh we have in mind that the shul is going to be used not just for but for some of these other things and therefore automatically the shul or the sanctuary is not imbued with the same with the same level of holiness that necessarily a standard shel would have been u in earlier times when the gammor was referring to a shul. So just to just to summarize then I'll take any any questions. We dealt with the question of what is the level of holiness that has on the one hand we know that is modern is is modeled after the beta mikdash. It's called a mikdash. So we saw a number of different interpretations. There are some who say that the level of kadusha vul is on the one hand is really just tashmish mitzvah. It's while you use it it has kusha but once you know once you don't need it for the mitzvah it no longer has kadusha. That was that was the lenient opinion. The more stringent opinion said no, it's modeled after the betam mikdash. The same mitzvah ora to fear the betam mikdash requires us to fear and to have awe for the betakness. Which created a lot of questions regarding how we act in the shul. So we noted that there was a gamarra that talks about building a shul alai that if you build the shul from the beginning alani on condition that maybe would allow you to do certain things that you couldn't do in a standard in a regular shul and that we noted that pretty much all shulles that are built nowadays are done with that in mind. And there's different understandings exactly what's allowed alai. But the more standard approach which is what many of the and of say is that when we build a shul nowadays we're not just building it for it. We're building it as a place for people to come together and and and and it is within that that the shul is built and therefore we're more lenient to what we allow. Obviously things should be appropriate. Nothing frivolous nothing inappropriate but within what's allowed talking having talking having a conversation in the back maybe sometimes eating depending on and every sh has their own standards. I think in this sh actually in this sanctuary no eating is allowed. So no eating is allowed whatsoever. Um but depending on the on the standards the shu has but from a perspective it may be allowed because the shul has been created as something that is much more than just a place of with that I think also we're highlighting and just to end with this we're highlighting another aspect which is what you were talking about before we've been talking about the power of ashul. Ashul is so much more than just a place to dav. It is a place to davin and it's first and foremost a place to davin. I remember one of my reb in elementary school used to go around when guys were talking and say if you do if you talk here where do you david right so first and foremost the shul is a place to do it but it certainly is so much more than that and when we talk about ding in a shul we there's so much more we gain by being a part of the shul and daving in a shul than just simply the word which obviously has tremendous kak as well I'm sorry I didn't have time for questions I'm happy to take questions uh separately but I want to give everyone a a a break now have a great week everybody Oh, just a technical point. Um, uh, it's going to be announced as well, but I'm actually, um, I'm leaving to the States at the end of this week. So, this will be our last session for, uh, for the summer. But, Batasham, looking forward, uh, to seeing everyone in the fall. Enjoy. >> Thank you.