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Kedushat Beit Knesset | Rabbi Yossi Goldin | July 15 2025
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everybody. Um, nice to see everyone
again. I apologize that I missed uh I
missed last week. Um, but looking
forward to to learning today and and as
always um we uh we ask that our learning
should be a a zoot or nish those who
have uh recently perished in this in
this very very long war. Um it should be
form should be for the return of our and
um Hashem should heal all those who have
been affected um by this war. And of
course as we always end with God should
give guidance to our leaders to make the
right decisions.
Okay. Uh what I wanted to do this week
is we're going to be finishing up a
topic that we had been discussing last
week last class two weeks ago. Um we
were in the middle of a very very long
essay by Salvich. We're not going to
read through the whole essay. Uh we were
in the middle of it. But I did want to
highlight uh the second part the second
aspect of what Rossalik talks about. Two
weeks ago we were discussing uh the
importance of davening in a betakness
and we we were in the middle of a of a
very very beautiful essay by Rossalvich
called the synagogue as an institution
and as an idea. And what I'd like to do
is is just highlight um Roselovich tried
to um talk about the concept of a shul
of a of a synagogue in two different
ways. We got to the first one. We didn't
get to the second one. I'd like to
finish and do that second point which I
think is a very very beautiful concept.
Um and then from there we're going to
then discuss another topic connected to
shuls which is the concept of kadushket.
um the holiness of the shul, what's
appropriate to do in a shul, some
practical um issues that arise regarding
appropriate behavior within within a
shul. So what I before we before we get
into into into Rosselvich, I'd like to
first look at source number one because
the the idea that we're going to see in
roselvich is based off of this gumar.
The gammor in source number one says
something very interesting. Tanya
There are two sins that cause an amar.
An amarit is generally considered to be
somebody who is ignorant, somebody who
is not as knowledgeable. Um or another
way of understanding it is the other
nations. This is what causes them to to
dieh
that when they refer to the aron kesh
when they refer to the aron uh in a shul
they call it an ara. Uh again I'm not
we're not we're not going to focus on
that point but there's some kind of name
that they give some nickname they give
to the aon kesh the alet
whenever they refer to a shul they call
it instead of calling it a shul instead
of calling it a betet what do they call
it a bet okay that because of these
names there's something derogatory or
considered or or negative about these
names that these people give and
therefore it's considered wrong. Um
Rafalik in in the second part of the
essay focuses on the second thing. He
focuses on the second thing that this
Gimarra says. He says, "What is wrong
with calling a bet?" What would be what
what how would you translate the beta?
>> A community center, right? A place for
the community, a place for the nation.
If anything, that sounds somewhat
positive. What's wrong with a beta? That
that's Rafalik's question. So, please um
turn with me. I gave you the whole uh
this isn't the whole essay. I took a lot
of different parts of it, but we're
going to go to the second page in the
middle of source number two. I'm sorry,
in the middle of source number two, the
second page about four lines down,
sorry, four paragraphs down, one, two,
three, where Rossalvich starts with one
line, bet conveys a second meaning as
well. Okay, so the first thing that
Rosalvich noted when he was referring
when we talked about betakness was that
is that there is that a beta does not
mean the house of God. This is what we
saw earlier, but rather it refers to the
home of God. What's the difference
between a house and a home? A home has a
c has a different type of a connotation.
Home is where you go when you want to
return to your roots. Home is where you
go when you're looking for a certain
sense of connection. Salvich, we saw
last time actually suggests that isn't
the home of God as much as much as it is
the home of man where he meets God. That
this is what we have designated as the
place where we connect with Hashem. And
therefore, that is where the
significance of the shul is. That was
Rouselves's first idea. But look at the
second idea. And again, I'm bringing
this to you because I think his words
and the way he develops it is uh is is
much better than any summary I could
give you. I did it is a very long essay.
So I did um skip certain parts but
hopefully I was able to to capture the
essence. Betakessa conveys a second
meaning as well. There was a strange
passage in track 8 Shabbat and that was
the garra that we just saw. The garra
says that if you refer to a bait as a
bait, that is what causes people to die
early. asks the gar the follow or says
the following. The name of the second
sin of substituting the word bet for bet
is not obvious. What does bet mean in
simple language? House of assembly.
Similarly, what does mean? A house of
the people, a house of the multitude, a
house of the you know of of the
community. What is the semantic
difference between beta kesset and beta?
The Talmud considered the substitution
of am for kesset a very serious offense.
The answer to this problem lies in aic
concept namely the idea of Salvik now
goes on to develop something that is
very prominent the world of which is a
concept of what is a what is what is a
shal
a messenger right in today's society a
meal is someone you send to go deliver
things for you okay sorry
>> intermediary also good good correct is
somebody you send on behalf of yourself
yes a representative excellent Okay. And
in the world of Shalia is very prominent
as well. If I'm not able to do c there
are certain mitzvot that I can't send a
sh to do, but there are many mitzvot
where if I'm unable to do it, I can send
somebody on my behalf in order to do it
for me. But then goes on to to develop
is that the concept of is a little bit
different than the way that we often
refer to it in the rest of the world.
The rest of the world we refer to it as
I guess the best way is a proxy. And
what's a proxy? A proxy is somebody who
I give power to do things on my behalf.
Roalik brings a number of examples where
in the world of a shal does much more
than that where the doesn't just isn't
just my pro he's not just doing it on my
behalf he's actually becoming me that in
certain areas of
where I am necessary to be a part of or
to do a certain action my ability to
appoint a shal means the shalia almost
becomes me in certain ways the shalia
represents me And not just like, oh, you
can sign on my behalf. When you sign
this document, when you do this action,
you are doing it in my place. And based
off of that, Salvich continues
to continue where we were up to in the
in in the source. The whole institution
of
and the synagogue which is dedicated to
rests upon the idea of
let me explain what is a tibbor and this
is an important distinction that salvic
makes of course in the vernacular we
identify tibbor with minion right when
we talk about ding with often what we
mean is domining with a minion what is a
minion 10 people and there's usually an
interchange we refer to dinging with a
minion domining with a tabore it's the
same thing we do not say tort is the
scholarly phrase for which minion is the
colloial expression meaning we usually
say I have to find a minion and what we
mean is I'm ding with the t-b so what
then is a minion says salvich 10 jews
together the number 10 when you have 10
that is a minion in this is this
equation of t with minion correct
technically it is correct however
philosophically it is wrong perhaps it
is wrong not only philosophically but
hakically as
In order to understand the word seabore,
we have to give our attention to the
term corbud. So salvichetic is
suggesting that even though we often
interchange
the concept of minion and seabore, they
are actually not the same. Minion refers
to 10 people coming and doing something.
Seabore means something much much
different and much more significant. He
says for example there's a concept of
corbanet seabore. What is a corban
seabore? Anyone know?
The whole community
refers to the concept that there are
there are many different types of
corbonote that were brought. There were
corbanote when an individual would come
to the beta mikdash and bring a corban.
And then there were corbanote that the
entirety of the people needed to bring.
For example, the corban tamid, the
korban that was brought out every single
day was brought on behalf of the entire
people. All of the corbanote of the
khagim, a corban musaf is a corban
sibore. If there were certain sins that
occurred throughout the entire
community, there were corbando that
needed to be brought on behalf of the
entire those are referred to as corban
ci.
So so it says salvichek really what is a
cibore? Cibbor doesn't just mean 10
people. Cibore in its real sense of the
word means the entirety of the Jewish
people.
Is a reference to Israel as a whole.
just to read his words. Of course, with
regards to Corban is to be equated with
adah with adah is and not with a minion
refers to the entire community. In other
words, visa vorban signifies the entire
Jewish covenantal community. If 10
people get together, he makes a
different point. This is an important
point. If 10 people get together and
jointly bring a sacrifice, let's say 10
individuals decide to bring a corban
together, that's not called a corband
sib. That's called a kabur or another a
more accurate in terms well that's for
forban pesak it's called a kabur but a
more accurate term would be it's called
a kurban what's a kurban a corban of
partners 10 people who decided to bring
it together so there's a big difference
between when 10 people decide to bring a
corban that's called korban
but yet when the community as a whole
brings a corban that's a k that's a
corban sabore
the latter would so he says if 10 people
would not would get together and jointly
bring a sacrifice The latter would not
be considered a corban that is aban
since the term
is related to the entirety of the Jewish
community. Now we have to get back to
the concept of
hence the term of tilat refers not to 10
people but to the Israel or rather
kesset Israel. And now says something
very astounding. He says every single
time we davin
as a group and we call that corban sib
we're not just dvening as a group of 10
people who are davening together we're
actually representing the entirety of
Israel
God hearkens to prayer of the entire
community as a whole to prayer offered
by the adat Israel in its entirety no
one must be excluded for example we say
and this we say we say specifically on
and in general byot
And then we say
that God will only be sanctified
throughout all of Israel Israel amongst
Ben Israel only within all of the people
in the midst of the community will I be
sanctified and the derives from these
words the famous conclusion in
that there is no concept you can't say
you can't say kadusha you can't say
there are things that anything which is
called a davarikat has a certain level
of sanctity cannot be said without aore
without a community
>> I'm sorry
>> oh you mean who said that seabore that's
an interesting I don't know I never
heard that I never that that that the
word seabore is an acronym for I mean I
mean it fits in with the idea that we
say especially especially when we say on
we say that that that we're domining
with with the avaryan we're domining
alto together the idea That's a
beautiful idea. I never heard that that
that that SEO what it does is it brings
we we spoke about how one of the values
of a seor is that the power of the
collective enables us to be able to
overcome the deficiencies of the and
therefore it enables people right the
power of a collective enables people us
to overcome the deficiencies of specific
individuals who are dominating that that
that is beautiful that enables everyone
to come together in in a beautiful way
>> assembly correcting
>> very
Okay, let's let let's let's keep going
because he's going to highlight it
beautifully. He says the question is
obvious. We're on the last the last
paragraph of the second page. On the one
hand, the Torah states only in the midst
of all of the people Israel shall I be
sanctified and not in the presence of
just part of the people. Doesn't say
and yet on the other hand this says at
the recital of kadusha we're allowed to
say in the presence of just 10 old men.
How could we reconcile the words of the
Torah that kaduca must be recited in the
presence of the entire community? Excuse
the uh the typo. To the exclusion of no
one with our daily practice where we are
satisfied with 10 people.
The answer lies in the self-evident fact
that in permitting 10 people on the next
page now to recite to say
to answer sorry we're on the we're on
page I think it's page three the top to
answer
operated with the idea of now we're
getting back to the concept of that when
10 men or a group of Jews get together
to davin they are now officially theim
of all of Israel. They represent all of
Israel operating with the idea of which
as I said is not to be equated with
proxy. The 10 are the representatives of
the Israel. They are theim of the people
as a whole. And in keeping with our
interpretation of they're not only
representatives. They're not only
ambassadors of Kalai Israel, they are
the Kalai Israel in a strange mystical
way. They impersonate not fictionally
but artistically but existent not
artistically but existentially and
become Israel. In other words, when 10
people in Yeshua offer their prayers,
the entire Knesset Israel prays with
them. They are the Knesset Israel. That
is why Kadusha is permitted through
them. And then he goes on to say, we
didn't bring this for you. actually goes
on to suggest that this isn't just true
of them representing AmIrael who are
alive today, but they represent all of
AmIrael, what's known colloquially as
Knesset Israel, all the way from the
back to the beginning of Jewish history
until the end of Jewish history because
we as Knesset Israel exist beyond time.
Fundamentally, there is only one prayer.
Fundamentally, there is only one
Sabbore. The invisible Knesset Israel
embracing the past, the present, and the
future. Praise with every minion. The
Tibbor in the synagogue is the micro
Knesseta Israel of 10, which represents
personifies the macro community of the
invisible Knesset Israel. And now,
Cerse, we can get back to our initial
question. The initial question we asked
on the Gmorrah was what's wrong with
calling it instead of calling it betet
says when you call it beta and you don't
refer to it in its proper name of betet
you're missing out on one of the most
fundamental aspects of ding in a kesset
with a tibor and that is that when we
ding with a betet we are capturing the
essence of kesset is we becomeet
Israel looking at the shul as simply a
place to gather. Not that not that
gathering is wrong. And by the way,
we're going to highlight soon. We're
going to talk a little bit about how a
shul does act as a place of gathering
also means a place of gathering. But
says it means so much more. Look at
final paragraph. We asked above why the
halak is so meticulous regarding the
name. What is wrong with beta? Why did
our sages say that it was a serious
offense to substitute beta for
betakness? The answer is now simple. The
beta is the home of the great invisible
kesset is through which all ages and
throughout through all ages and
millennia. A beta is a house for
contemporaries. However, to pray with
contemporaries is not enough. One must
pray with the entire covenantal
community which is present in the
betaknesset and the kaduca vet is due to
that mysterious mysterium tremendum.
That's rvichic's uh wonderful language.
The latter sus suspends all three d time
dimensions. The past is not gone yet.
The future has yet arrived. And we the
10 people the minion who live in the
present unite both past and future. A
beta kesset is the home of prayer as was
pointed above because it is the because
it is the home and this is the point
where you bring the two together. The
reason it's the home of prayer is
because it is the home of the great
Knesset Israel and ipso facto the home
where al where almighty has a rendevu
with the kesset Israel and so zetic in
very very beautiful fashion as you can
see why I thought it was important that
we see some of this language inside is
highlighting one of the most important
aspects of what ashul is we talked we've
talked before about how davining andul
is about connecting everyone together
the power of the community and the
impact that has or salvich has taken
this to a new level that when we dive in
with a minion In a shul what we are
doing is we are tapping into the
entirety of we are representing we are
we becomeet Israel in a very very
powerful way in some kind of mystical
way we connect all of am we represent
all of am isel and there's something
very very powerful about that both
mystic on a mystical level as well as
practically thinking about and
understanding that when we dive and
we've talked about this before how the
texts that we're saying are tapping into
the history of all of Am Israel that the
text itself the doing that we do
although it's different
is was different in communities
throughout the years fundamentally the
things we're saying it's what it's what
defines and connects all all of am and
and therefore I thought that this was an
important another an important aspect
for us to be highlighting of the power
of davining with a minion and the power
of davining in a beta kesset recognizing
that when we do in a betakness what
we're doing is we're tapping into and
we're becoming part of the greater
kesset is so that was just something
that I wanted to finish because We had
been in the middle of it last week and I
wanted to what highlight that what I'd
like to do now is pivot to a a connected
sorry this question or comment please.
mentioned as
>> I mean
>> why don't we why is that why is that not
the colloquial phrase
>> so so first of all well I could actually
I could I could I could I could answer
your first question with your second
question but
um so I I think that number one I think
you I Number one, it is a bet. There's
no question. But I think I would say two
things. My this is my own understanding
of it. First of all, I think the hangup
is is because as said, sometimes what
sometimes the hangup is because you're
you want to be able to highlight and
remind yourself of all the different
ideas. Meaning if we just refer to as
one that's true it is a butic is
pointing out that it's so much more. And
sometimes the way that we talk about
things and the way that we describe
things impacts our our vision of them,
what we do, how we approach them. And
therefore, it's important. Again, I
don't I don't I don't know, but it's
that the source number one is nagara.
Nagata doesn't necessarily mean that if
we actually call it beta one time, that
means that all of a sudden we're going
to dy. What it means is it's capturing
something about what it's a lesson about
what the sh is supposed to be and how
we're supposed to look at it. Does that
mean we can never call it that? I think
it means is this. This is this is when
we think about a shul, we think about a
beta. This is the vision we should be
having and that's where I think what I
think Rosselovich is highlighting.
>> So I I think I think it is. I think it
is. Now again now the challenge becomes
and this is we're actually going to get
to today which is well what happens if
you do too much with it. What what does
that what does that mean? For example,
we're going to get to today the the
concept of the kadusha of the betakness
and what is and and what what can be
done in a bet meaning should maybe a bet
should only be a place where you pray.
Can you eat in a bet? Can I talk with my
friends in the betakness? Meaning you're
pointing you are pointing out that
sometimes if you just look at it as
something much larger than just a place
to davin. What you lose is remembering
what the main point is which is to
davin. So you have to have both. There's
no question. There's no question that a
bet and what we're going to also I think
see that I think is more than just a
house of prayer but it is fundamentally
a house of prayer. And I don't think we
can lose that. Um I hope I'm I hope I'm
I'm answering your question. I think
you're right that we have to make sure
that we don't lose the fact that
ultimately right I I I I I joke about
this but sometimes we talk about it that
like you know in some places people come
to shu and they don't even come to Davin
they come they come to sit in the back
and
>> smoo
>> okay so yes I do believe and again it's
shifting it's shifting here dramatically
Um I do believe that um what's generally
understood is that whereas in America
shuls have become much more than just a
bila have become a community center on
some level even though you have JCC's
but they've become much more than that
which is why the structures are
significantly different. the role of the
rabbi is significantly different. The
the overall attitude towards it is is
significantly different. Whereas here
it's become a place to do it. Now that's
not a bad thing, right? Because
sometimes I think when you when you have
the in America they become much more you
people forget about the fact that you're
supposed to be doining and not just
coming for kdish and coming for although
those things are important. The doining
is the main thing. The question is is is
that you want to find that right
balance. I think people here and
especially it's happening I think as
more people make aliyah and more people
who come from those Anglo communities
and that vision of what it was make
aliyah and they're saying I want
something more I don't the reason the
reasons used to not be that the reasons
in Israel were generally just places to
stop is because that was what was needed
or at least that's what they felt they
needed okay they said we have the irri
when you live in a Jewish in a Jewish
country so certain things that you're
used to your schul doing taking care of
weddings taking care of burial taking
care of of mikvah many things that the
shul was import was a part of now the
irya does now the city does and
therefore for what do I need the shul
for? I need the shavin. But what people
I think have realizing more and more is
that shul is not just a place to do.
It's a place to connect. It's a place to
be able to connect and and and I think
again to each their own, right? if
there's a community and people feel like
they're able to spiritually get what
they need to get and it comes from
without having a rabbi and just having
mata man but I think people are people
maybe shuls didn't even realize what
they were missing and now they're coming
to realization that that there is a
value to having more of a community feel
to that to the to those sher
method and a base metric and the base
was more
in terms of rule.
The other thing I want to ask you is
nobody between the time of the rap.
>> Oh, you mean explain that Gamarra? I'm
sure there were. I I'm sure I'm sure
there were. I will I will be I'll be
very honest. I didn't do my due
diligence in researching all the answers
to this kamarra. Meaning meaning I was
really building I really the focus for
me was on was on this essay that I
wanted to highlight what he was doing
and I brought you that kamarra. I'm sure
I'm sure there's different explanations
for exactly what the issue is.
on that says something similar. Yeah. So
he says her first says something
similar. I'm sure and I'm sure the basic
aonium and you know again I'm sure there
are many people who give other
explanations but this was a salvage
explanation
>> who initiated the term beta I mean I
mean it exists it exists it exists in
the garamas exists in in early sources.
Who actually came up with the term beta?
I'm not sure. It's a good question. I
know that I know that remember hearing
that that that rev refers to the fact
that we we call a we call a we call it a
shul and a shul is from the language of
a school which is it's meant to teach
you okay so that's that's very
interesting also
>> right no so so
>> so you're asking a very good question
which you're touching on something else
which is I think I think you're also
asking for example what was there
historically when there was a bet was
there also And historically their
understanding was there were shools over
the sh were placed with people where
people gathered to say certain filot
even though much was said in the beta
mikdash but you're but this is a great
transition because what you're basically
asking is is our shul modeled after the
beta mikdash because if it is then in
terms of rules and kusha and things you
can or can't do maybe modeled after that
which would make it much more
restrictive and we're going to and that
what I'd like to do is I'd like to now
look at a little bit of the sources
trying to understand the status of a
shul the status of a betakness and
therefore the repercussions and
ramifications of what can or can't be
done in a shul um which I I think we all
agree we see are we tend to be rather
lax in terms of how what we do in aul
the question is is that justified and
where does that come from yes last
question before we go on
>> absolutely
>> all interconnected absolutely I think
the fact that
>> I feel that when you're in When you
concentrate on prayer, you also are
concentrating on relating to saying I am
part of
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. I think they're
all I think they're all correct. I think
everybody is different and that's why
each person needs to understand what
what they connect with. But I 100% agree
that I I personally also find that when
I'm diving with a community, the social
aspect impacts my the impacts. There's a
lot of interaction. Some people are
different. Some people say no. When I'm
around people, I get distracted and I
can't focus. Everybody has to. But so or
or down at home or or or do or or find
an area that's less distracting for you
within the shul meaning everybody has to
figure out that but but I agree with you
that that social piece is a major they
are very much hand in hand and and do
feed off of each other. That's an
excellent point. Okay. So the gamarra
here we're going to let now move to
source number three. The garra uh we
know that we know that we've seen before
that the shul is referred to as a
mikdash meat. We saw that in earlier
sources when we discussed the bit the
beginning of the importance of a shul
which means that a shul is considered to
be a mini sanctuary a mini in fact
sanctuary whenever I say sanctuary I
think of that's what we used to that's
what that in America that's what they
refer to as the main shu we call it the
main sanctuary I think in today to this
day that's still the word that's used
when we refer to the main the main
minion the main sanctuary where the
where the shul is okay so then we know
that on some level a shul is meant to be
modeled after the beta mikdash the
question is how far do we take that in
terms of what's allowed to be done or
not allowed to be done in a shul. So
look at the gumar in source number three
it's a migila and the garra is
discussing
what you're allowed to sell or if you
sell something of a certain level of
kusha what can be purchased with that
money because if you sell something that
has a certain level of kusha you can
only purchase things that have also a
certain level of kusha with that money
because the money achieves a certain
level of sanctity as well. So the Mishna
says the following.
If the people of a city sold a certain
street,
then you're allowed to then use that
money to buy a shul. Why? Because when
you purchased the shul, it's going up in
its because before it was just a regular
street and now you're buying a a a
shulket.
If you p if you sold a betaket, you're
allowed to purchase ava. Okay, ava is a
reference to to an area either the kesh
or that holds certain objects of
kadusha. Okay,
again, we're going up in levels of
holiness that as you sell something of a
lower level of holiness, you're also
allowed to then purchase something which
is a higher level of holiness. But you
can't do the opposite. For example, if
you sell a safer Torah, you can't buy an
you can't buy a because the safer Torah
has a higher level of holiness.
That's what it says at the very end.
If you sell to Torah, you can't just buy
with that money.
I believe is a reference to the covering
of the safer Torah. Okay.
Basically, when you per when you have
something of kadusha, you can only
purchase something of a higher level of
kadusha with that money. You can't
purchase something of a lower level of
kadusha with that money. Okay. What we
see from this gimmar without getting
into all of the practical details is
that already on this list
has some level of kadusha. It has some
level of holiness because we could have
said it's a room where we dive in and
that's it. But we see clearly from this
Mishna there is some level of holiness
and there is a mlo an argument in the
rishonim what how high the level of
holiness the shul has is for example in
source number four the raman the ramban
says something very very interesting
we're just going to look at the
underlined the underlined part of the
ramban the second paragraph in source
number four
the ramban is bringing a number of
different sources that seem to
contradict each other regarding the
status of the holiness of and he says
vesar
deet
mitzvah. The status of a shul is that of
what we call a tash mitzvah. Tashmish
mitzvah means that some it's an object
that is used for a mitzvah, which means
it is imbued with holiness while you're
using it, but once you finish using it,
it no longer maintains that holiness.
For example, he says lul love or suka.
For example, the walls of a suka. Okay.
So the walls of a suka on sukus while
it's being used for a mitzvah have a
certain level of holiness and there
things you can or cannot do with those
walls. The second sukus is over and
you're no longer using this for the
mitzvah of suka. You're allowed to use
those walls to to to do whatever you
want with them. They no longer maintain
or retain their kusha. They only have
their kadusha during the time that they
are being used for the mitzvah.
You still should be very you still
should you still you still should
dispose of them in a more respectful way
than you would something else. For
example, the lula very often we say you
should put it in a bag and then put it
in the garbage or many people have the
midhug to hold on to it if you manage to
be able to do this to hold on to it and
burn it on pes that we take one mitzvah
and use it for another mitzvah. That's
not a that's a mhug. Um, but you so you
still should treat it with a certain
level of of cavode because it was used
for a mitzvah, but it the level of it no
longer has any kusha once the mitzvah is
over says the Raman the same thing as of
a while the shul is being used for the
mitzvah of
so it has a certain status of kadusha.
The second the community decides they no
longer want to use this space for the
mitzvah of felah then okay you have you
should treat it with more respect than
maybe other things but it no longer has
a level of kaduca. Now this is a very
important point regarding the question
of what you can do. Let's say let's say
let's say the sh decides it wants to it
needs it wants to it wants to you know
it wants to sell it uh sell the
building. Are you allowed to do that?
There's a big debate about whether
that's allowed or not. According to the
Ramban, it's more allowed because once
the community decides, I'm no longer
using this space for then you would be
allowed to do certain things that you
normally wouldn't be allowed for a place
that has kadusha. One second. So that's
the opinion of the Raman. That's the mo
that's the most lenient opinion
regarding the status or the level of
kadusha that we have in the beta which
is it's like kadusha tash mitzvah. Once
it when you're using it, it has kadusha.
When you stop using it, it no longer has
that same kadusha. Other rishonim
disagree. the Ran, for example, in
source number five, again, we're only
going to see the highlights. The Ran in
source number five, he quotes the
Ramban, and he asks a number of
questions on the Ramban.
And then he says,
he says, I he says, I I disagree with
the Ramban. I don't think the Ramban the
Ramban's analysis is correct.
And then again, we just getting to the
main part.
This is the underlying part.
He says, "Therefore, I believe that a
shul and something similar
since this is a location where we invoke
the name of God and we say
therefore
rabbitically the shul has a certain
level of kadusha more than just not just
when you're using it. has it. Even when
you're not using it, even when they
decide not to, there's a rabbitic level
of kusha that is imbued in the shul by
virtue of the fact that it is used for
virtual the fact of what it is used for
in terms of domining and coming and
connecting to Hashem.
But many rishonim and this is the third
opinion the most severe actually suggest
that the kadusha that has is mid ora is
biblical and it is patterned after the
kadusha of the beta mikdash. Look at
source number six. Source number six is
a safer uranium also one of the rishim
and he has a list of the different
mitzvot and one of the mitzvot that he
lists is mo mikdash is having fear or
awe of the beta mikdash in his
description of describing the mitzvah of
having awe and fear of the beta mikdash.
He mentions shul look at the underlined
part. The Pik says
you should have fear of God.
When a person enters the bet and then he
says oh
that you need to have a certain fear for
just like you would he even compares it
to the beta mikdash. You have to have a
fear in when you walk into the shul or
walk into a bess or a bish. Again, we're
skipping just for time purposes. Look at
the the next underlined part.
When the Torah says, "You should fear or
have awe for my mikdash."
Included in that command is what we
refer to as the betet, what we refer to
as bish that there is a a biblical kusha
to a shul and to a base maj. So we have
three opinions so far. We've seen in the
rishim one opinion is the level of
kadusha that mikdash that that aul has
is similar to tashmish mitzvah which
means when you do it it has kadusha but
when you stop using it it no longer has
its kadusha which is the most lenient.
The second opinion is that of the RH
which is there is rabbitic kusha that is
imbued upon the shul because of how we
use it. And the third is the uranium who
suggests no there is actual mid ora
kusha on a shul parallel to in similar
fashion like there was in the beta
mikdash. Okay. Yes. There was a comment
or a question.
>> You mean they you mean they bought they
bought a mosque or a church in order to
build a shul or the opposite? Right.
Okay. So you're so you're again we're
not I I don't want to get too much into
too much of the practical there's a
whole big question regarding if there is
kusha what can be done meaning with it
how can you sell it when can you sell it
if you can sell it what it can be used
for etc. They're all great questions. I
don't want to get into all of those
details just simply because I wanted to
focus more on not not that that's not
important but I think for us it's more a
question of things that we do eating
talking these are certain practical
things that I wanted that I wanted but
is it is it is a very good question I'll
even say more than that there was a big
huckic discussion this is a big question
was um when during 2005 in the
disengagement
um when when when when in Gaza when in
in uh in the whole area of Gaza all the
Jews were taken out and the question was
what do you do with the shuls and of
Yakavariel as a whole has a whole chuva.
The question was we know what's going to
happen if we leave them which is
actually what happened was we left them
and what did the Arabs do? They went in
and they just totally destroyed them. On
the other hand, you're not supposed to
destroy Ashul. So if we actively destroy
it, should we actively destroy it? And
that was a big kaki discussion. In the
end, Ravariel told them that they should
leave it because whatever they would do
is not worse than what we would do. I
mean I think that's debatable. I mean, I
think it was disgrace, but in the end of
the day, the way the the methods that
they have to destroy it, which was
burning it and anything like that, it's
probably the way that we would have done
something or they used bulldozers to
totally destroy it and raise it is what
we would have done anyway. Um, but it's
but it's it's it's a very very important
question of what you're allowed to do
and it all revolves around this meaning
according to the Ramban according to the
Ramban once the schul decides this is no
longer a place where we're dabbing you
should be able to sell it and do
whatever you want with it. Um but
according to the uranim who's the most
stringent who says this is just like a
beta mikdash of many mikdash then we it
would be more stringent and that's just
a question of how we pusk in I think we
generally paskin like the uranium in
many different ways which is that we do
look at it very very in a very stringent
way that we have to keep a certain
kadusha which means there must be
certain ways that they that that people
who sell it to a church or to other
things I don't know exactly how they
what hakic basis they're using but there
must be some way that they that they're
able to do it. Okay. So what I'd like to
do now is is is get to the question of
for us also because based on what we're
seeing so far this has a status of like
the beta mikdash doesn't mean doesn't
mean literally the beta mdash where you
get to take where you had to go to the
mikvah before you went to the beta
mikdash take off your shoes meaning but
it means that this has a level mid ora
of kusha of holiness and yet I'm sure
many of us are familiar with many shuls
where you walk in people are eating
people are talking I'll even say more
there are many shuls that are you know
considered very very and right after
diving What do they do? They put away
they move the tables to the side and
they have kdish or they have shallis in
the shul in the sanctuary. How is that
how is that allowed? How is that
allowed? And and and and is there is
there is there is there an allowance for
that? So the main basis for that
actually comes from um another gamarra.
We're going to skip to that gamarra
right now in source number 10. And the
gamarra says the following. And this is
going to be the basis for understanding
many of the leniencies that we have
specifically regarding how we act in
shari
source number 10.
All of the sh in. And here seems to be
an understanding. It's referring to all
the sh in not necessarily just
they were built on conditional
but nevertheless we shouldn't treat them
frivous. We we shouldn't act frivolously
in the shi what does it mean that they
were built alani says theote to take an
accounting says the following concept
when we built the shul
we it was built and this is assumed says
the garra for all shs built in why
specifically it's because those shs we
believe are ultimately going to be trans
according to kazal are going to be
uprooted and transplanted back in and
therefore they had to be built alai what
it means is that when I built when I
built the sh in America or when my my
when when my community in England New
Jersey built a beautiful sh that they
have it was built alai with an
understanding that it's not going to be
imbued with the full kadusha it was
there was there was an understanding
that every shul built in
is does not attain the status of kadusha
that we normally give to ashul
because it was built with this
understanding that it's going to be
moved it's going to be treated
differently by the way that does
highlight is that Already we talk about
the difference between so that means
that every has a lower level of kush
although we're going to see that many of
ours today here in also are built alai
with a certain with a certain condition
once you build it alani says the garra
therefore although you should not act
frivolously in the shul many of those
things which shouldn't be done in a
standard shul can be done in a shul
that's built alanai because you
stipulated from the from the beginning
that you didn't want to imbue this
building or this shul with the standard
and that is what enables you to do
certain things for example the say to
deal with certain accountings to talk
about certain
not necessarily inappropriate things but
things that are more mundane you're
allowed to do in a shul if it was built
alai
>> is there an advantage to
>> it's a good question um
I would say there's pro it's probably
it's probably a double-edged sword
because on the one hand you could say um
and and again We're going to see soon
that according to many of the modern
postkim almost all of our shooles are
built with that certain understanding of
altani. We'll see why. On the one hand
you could argue it has a lower level of
kadusha. On the other hand you're less
accountable for the things you might do
or say. So so it's a very very good
question. Um on the one hand we all want
to do it. It's the same thing going to
the cotell right? You want to do you
want to go to the cult you want to go to
the holiest place and you want to have
the place that mystically has the
highest level of kadusha. On the other
hand you also have to be much more
careful about how you act in those
places. So which one is better for a
person to dive in? I believe that to you
to everyone to to to think about
themselves. But but I think we are being
safer by by having schools that are
built alana when we're especially when
we're dealing with a with with a with a
full community. The question is what
exactly does does this mean? Meaning
what does it mean when we say that it's
built alani? So what understanding in
the rishonim and this is the rush and
this is this is the the rush is a rish
source number 11. We're not going to see
it inside. He basically understands this
gamarra differently than this is
standard approach. He says when it says
alani that you can build a shulan and
that enables you to do certain things
that you normally can't do in shul he
says that's only once it's destroyed
normally a shul that has full kaduca
once it's been destroyed you still
cannot do certain things but if you
build it all tonight you can what that
means for us is that practically it
doesn't help us in any way while the sh
is still standing while is still
standing says the rush even if it's
built on condition you still have to
treat it with the same kusha as you
would any shul there's no you don't get
any advant advantage by building an ali
that's the Russia's opinion however
other is say no this concept of building
a shul alai is a gamecher when you build
a alai it now obviously you can't act
frivolously you can't do c you can't do
inappropriate things in a shul but
things that would be considered mundane
can be done in a shul because when you
built it you stipulated that you were
building it you were building it al
tonight the question is who do we pus
like do we paskin like the rush who is
more strict
who seems to say that even if you build
a shai, you still need to treat it with
the same level of kadusha or dokin like
the other who say no if you build it
alai then that enables you to do more to
do more within the shul without
violating its kadusha. So interestingly
enough the who is the main source for
our as ourer he poskins like the rush he
seems to be strict he poskins like the
rush and he says even if you build a
that only enables you to be lenient
about it once it's destroyed but when
the shul is still standing you have to
be just as careful as you would for any
shul comes the mishnabura and the
mishnabura says I apologize I'm going a
little bit fast just because of time the
mishnabura comes and comments in the ber
says that's not the minhug. He says if
you look all around most of the are of
the opinion that if you build a shuli
if you build if you stipulate that when
you build the shul you're building it
with a certain understanding that you're
not imbuing it with the standard level
of kadusha that enables you even while
is standing to be able to do more
mundane things within the sanctuary and
there and that is what we is that that
was what we hold now just one just one
comment I just want to to make sure to
make a couple of other comments and this
is there's a fascinating
Uh there's a fascinating chuva in source
number 17. I'm just going to mention it
quickly by the dra the was the was the
tanzerbi the previous sanzerebi the
tanerebi who was a nit shawah who uh who
was saved from the holocaust.
Unfortunately his wife and 10 children
were were killed in the holocaust. He
then moved to natana and got remarried
rebuilt his family and rebuilt the
community of tons. There's now a
community called kuryatans in in natana
north natana a beautiful flourishing
community. um was all founded by the
Dreheim. He also founded Laniato
Hospital which is a hospital there in in
in Italy and he makes the following
suggestion. He says that our shs
nowadays do not have the same stat do
not have the status of a basakesset
because when we build a shul nowadays we
have in mind that we're not just going
to be domining there but we're going to
be gathering there. We're going to be
smoozing with each other. We're going to
be socializing that the way in which we
envision the way especially I would say
in in in Kutzlar where the shul has
become the community. Now by the way
when I talk about a I don't even mean
the other rooms. The other rooms
obviously can be used for meaning the
the the you know the outside hall the
downstairs those can certainly all be
used for whatever we would for other
things. We're talking about the
sanctuary. What can the san because the
sanctuary is what's called the bet and
says that even the sanctuary when when
nowadays when we build sh we build it
with the intention that is going to be a
place for us to gather a place for us to
to talk to schmoo. Now obviously it
should be appropriate but it's okay if
we do those things within the shul
because that is how what we have in mind
when we when we build it and I'm sure
this is certainly true of almost all
communities when they build their shul
they're not always thinking about just
the but about everything surrounding it
which is also as you pointed out part of
what increases and and helps the the
experience the last the last comment I
want to make or the last source I want
to see which is very interesting is is
is a tr by
was asked whether or not a person who is
blind is allowed to bring his seeing dog
or whatever the terminology is forgive
me seeing eye dog I think into shul or
is that a violation of the kusha of the
shul and salvage and excuse me here
points out that the min has been that we
use the shul for for other things for
example he points out that many shuls
after dvening they clear away the tables
and they have a kdish or they have a
shellish and that's considered
acceptable as long as it's done within
the framework work of Kadusha on some
level of of therefore he says the same
thing would be true here. We as as a
community by that I mean the larger
Jewish community when we build our sh we
have in mind that the shul is going to
be used not just for but for some of
these other things and therefore
automatically the shul or the sanctuary
is not imbued with the same with the
same level of holiness that necessarily
a standard shel would have been u in
earlier times when the gammor was
referring to a shul. So just to just to
summarize then I'll take any any
questions. We dealt with the question of
what is the level of holiness that has
on the one hand we know that is modern
is is modeled after the beta mikdash.
It's called a mikdash. So we saw a
number of different interpretations.
There are some who say that the level of
kadusha vul is on the one hand is really
just tashmish mitzvah. It's while you
use it it has kusha but once you know
once you don't need it for the mitzvah
it no longer has kadusha. That was that
was the lenient opinion. The more
stringent opinion said no, it's modeled
after the betam mikdash. The same
mitzvah ora to fear the betam mikdash
requires us to fear and to have awe for
the betakness. Which created a lot of
questions regarding how we act in the
shul. So we noted that there was a
gamarra that talks about building a shul
alai that if you build the shul from the
beginning alani on condition that maybe
would allow you to do certain things
that you couldn't do in a standard in a
regular shul and that we noted that
pretty much all shulles that are built
nowadays are done with that in mind. And
there's different understandings exactly
what's allowed alai. But the more
standard approach which is what many of
the and of say is that when we build a
shul nowadays we're not just building it
for it. We're building it as a place for
people to come together and and and and
it is within that that the shul is built
and therefore we're more lenient to what
we allow. Obviously things should be
appropriate. Nothing frivolous nothing
inappropriate but within what's allowed
talking having talking having a
conversation in the back maybe sometimes
eating depending on and every sh has
their own standards. I think in this sh
actually in this sanctuary no eating is
allowed. So no eating is allowed
whatsoever. Um but depending on the on
the standards the shu has but from a
perspective it may be allowed because
the shul has been created as something
that is much more than just a place of
with that I think also we're
highlighting and just to end with this
we're highlighting another aspect which
is what you were talking about before
we've been talking about the power of
ashul. Ashul is so much more than just a
place to dav. It is a place to davin and
it's first and foremost a place to
davin. I remember one of my reb in
elementary school used to go around when
guys were talking and say if you do if
you talk here where do you david right
so first and foremost the shul is a
place to do it but it certainly is so
much more than that and when we talk
about ding in a shul we there's so much
more we gain by being a part of the shul
and daving in a shul than just simply
the word which obviously has tremendous
kak as well I'm sorry I didn't have time
for questions I'm happy to take
questions uh separately but I want to
give everyone a a a break now
have a great week everybody Oh, just a
technical point. Um, uh, it's going to
be announced as well, but I'm actually,
um, I'm leaving to the States at the end
of this week. So, this will be our last
session for, uh, for the summer. But,
Batasham, looking forward, uh, to seeing
everyone in the fall. Enjoy.
>> Thank you.