John Spencer, Urban Warfare Expert (Behind the Bima #178)

from Bocarone, Florida. This is behind the beimma. On this episode, the rabbis are joined by Colonel John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the modern war institute at West Point. Colonel Spencer provides profound insights into the complexities of urban warfare, sharing his expertise and experiences from the battlefield. The discussion then goes into the themes of moral clarity in warfare, the challenges faced by Israel in its ongoing conflicts, and the broader implications for Western military strategies. Plus, all the information you need to know about Rabbi Brody's big move to Israel. All this and more behind the beimma. Welcome back behind the beam as we are counting up towards Pesak. We have yet another incredible guest to bring you this week, John Spencer, one of the outspoken non-Jewish heroes for Israel. I'm looking forward to get to that conversation. But first, Rabbi Josh Brody, last week we had a gala to end all gallas. We had a goodbye party. We had a unity night. We had what a and I think it was a short dinner. What a night rally. It had a little something of everything. A lot of tears. A lot of tears. Wasn't expecting that. Wasn't prepared for that. But um first of all, you put every detail of it together, which I'll admit at first I was a little cynical about that you were doing that on your own, but by the end you really nailed it. And it was beautiful and heartwarming and meaningful and special as our community is gearing up to uh to say not goodbye but leitraote. We've seen that before many times. Yeah, exactly. But as you're getting ready for Ali Yeah. So tell us about did the dinner meet your expectations, surpass it, come up short, what were the highlight for you? Can I can I I'm just going to read you something that someone sent me and I think this actually sums up the whole the whole night and first of all I was this morning I was I was I was at the networking thing because I guess you guys weren't available for the Devar Torah. First of all, no one tried me. I think they went right to you. No, I don't think anyone went right to me. You got to get their last licks in. Yeah. So, so they uh so I was going to talk about because I heard a great thing on a about what makes it the ultimate leader. Mosher Rebe know what I said because he's humble. Leaders are readers. Yeah. Say because of the small olive. Like that was the devart I was going to give. But then I'm like I can't give that because you're gonna all look at me and be like, "Yeah, you're not a humble person." So I don't want to be hypocritical, so I went to another thing, but that's what I told everyone. Okay. So it says over here, "Honestly, what made it magical wasn't the program or even the dinner, but I'm going to put in parentheses, although those were amazing. Those were incredible, better than any other dinner you've ever been to." says, "It was all of us being together, feeling something real and powerful." That kind of connection is hard to describe, but it's impossible to ignore. That's it. That's it. That's impossible to ignore. That's can't describe it. You feel it. There's something there. I'm not sure what it is. Yeah. I like that to ignore. So, I like that. So, tell them, did it surpass your expectations? Did it meet it? Is what you were hoping for? It's always different. never and like I'll tell you I'll be honest like at the beginning I had this very dramatic entrance and I was like turn the lights off. They're like that's all the lights we can do. So I was like okay that part a little disappointing but you move on you know. Yeah there were some questions that um you know the end was a little different than I think you had scripted it right. Which part? Uh there there was like one part of the ending that like there was a big culmination a climactic moment of of uh of uh tikva that kind of the band came out they wouldn't have called my right before the special band I came on and maybe first of all the band was amazing he chick out of retirement I don't know how you pulled that off the band came together fantastic on the uh what was he playing just so you know we're not done we we actually p practiced last night. Again, we have no upcoming event, but we actually jammed last night. One of the guys brought a couple pies of pizza and we were all jamming last night. It was great. It was fantastic. It was really, Rabbi Brody. It was really a special night. There was enormous amount of love in the room. Oh, one second. Are you talking about the motorcycle? Is that what you're talking about? No, no, no, no. Rabbi Goldber, you don't even know what was supposed to happen. Can I tell you riding on a motorcycle and I said no. Um, but uh Ellie Beer, we had a motorcycle, Hot Solomon motorcycle supposed to come in with an with a mask and with the with the U Cookie Monster and it might have been someone, you know, but you wouldn't have known till they got on stage and you thought, "Oh, it was always Josh all these years." It actually wasn't. It was someone else, you know. I'll tell you for me obviously you know the whole night and celebrating you and Simone and all your many accomplishments but one of the videos and I'm sure Abby Goldberg it it brought tears to your eyes also but you had a video where you really highlighted our relationship the relationship of our families together um the rabbis throughout the years and it was we've been through a lot together you know I've only I'm a junior member here I've only been here 15 years the two of you closer to 25 but the three of us we've been through a lot and we've had a lot of experiences and watching that video was was really a walk down memory Thank god you showed it. Thank god you showed it after I spoke because I was sitting next to Brody. I was balling. I would never have been able to get up and speak after watching that that walk through memory lane and that history like you just said. No, because because in the first two videos which one was with friends and the community, I was like, let me hold back a little. I didn't want to I didn't want to, you know, give everything right away. It was a it was a beautiful I'd say the ones who stole the night for me were your moms. The two moms were great. Amazing. Thank you. funny, emotional, great introduction. They were really great. And I just came back from Israel and uh everywhere I go, they say, "Oh, Rabbit Brody's coming. Why aren't you coming with them? When are you coming next? Why aren't you coming?" So, I think two things to to to our audience that I didn't get a chance to say that night. It's always you always say like after your draw, if I would have said this, I would have said that. I would have, you know, but there's a reason you didn't and maybe it was meant for behind the bea. But, just two things. Number one is that my father always had a dream of living in Israel. In fact, I have, and you could appreciate this, I have a file that after he passed away. It was like the Israel file of all the clippings of all the places he was looking at different apartments and things. To this day, I've never looked at it. I still have it in my closet. I never I've never opened it, but I it's it's the file. So, I know he would be very he'd be very proud right now. And the other thing is just to just to really appreciate the the blessing which is you know I think for almost all of us even Phil in some way you know maybe a little maybe took a little detour for a moment but ended up in Bokeh you know for for you and I it's it's this was the first job we ever had right out of like and it wasn't even like much of an interview really I mean it was like it just kind of worked for whatever reason it it's amazing it's amazing we might not have thought we would ever end up here for that many years. But but it's it's such a blessing. It's such a blessing. It's like where does what world does that happen that you that you find 25 years in one place and yeahing it is it is the hand of Hashem. I definitely feel that. I know I feel that all the time whenever people talk to me about my history in Bokeh. I always say I was in the right place at the right time coming for the collab fast left and right each of those opportunities was the right place at the right time. And it's the who makes things the right place at the right time is Hashem and and Ra Moscow is joining us when he did and and and how he did and and has been a critical part of our team. And what's amazing is the longevity we've all had here. Um and nobody's chasing you out, Rabbi Brody. So meaning we have colleagues, we have colle I think stays longer than the average head of school, but neither of them is especially long. And yet in our community, we're just blessed. We're blessed to have amazing congregants, amazing community, amazing members, amazing friends. We're really one big family. I think that's the feeling in that room that night was we're a family. We're a big family. One of the members of our family is making aliyah. It's always hard for a family. Just speak to your moms about it, but it's a member of the family and we're all and we're a family and that's what's that's what's really special. I don't know. The fact that right sitting here right now is 65 years and Bokeh combined. That's years. It's a lot. 65 years in Bokeh combined. Yeah. And and nobody's chasing anyone out. You know, it's funny. People people always ask me, they say, you know, what's the secret sauce? What's the secret sauce in Boer and BRS? I always attribute it to to two things. Number one is the one you just said, which is that we genuinely like each other. We're not, you know, this is not a show. We don't put it on. And after once the cameras are off, we're bickering. Like we genuinely like each other and we work closely together. And I think that filters down to the work that we do tonight. What? Just wait till tonight. And the other thing I say is that I think that the level of friendship that we have with the other outside of the I think definitely contributes the amount of time we save by not bickering and fighting and stab you know and we're just able to build toad I think that's enormously contributed to the success of 100% 100%. Well, it was a bittersweet night. Thank God we have several more months with you here. And I mean, the best part is that, you know, exactly. You're going back and forth. We go back and forth and and that relationship between, you know, I view it as you're going to Israel and and and there'll be this bond and relationship and you're paving the way for us to follow in your footsteps and to help us when we go on missions and and give to causes and just a stronger connection. So, it's not an end of anything. It's the beginning of something new and special. We're grateful to welcome John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at West Point. Everyone else is talking about civilian casualties, ratios, ethics of war. This is the chair of urban warfare studies, an expert at West Point, a non-Jew who's served the American military 25 years. We're so incredibly grateful. Uh, but who's a real expert who's been standing up for Israel and any chance you get if you're listening, certainly after you hear him, you'll want to even more find a way to say thank you. I don't even know how exactly online in social media reach out. But whether it's John Spencer or Douglas Murray whom we had on or some of the other non-Jewish, it's obvious or should be. It's unfortunately not. The Jews stand for the US Israel relationship and for Israel and for the Jewish people. When someone who's non-Jewish does it, it's special. It's big and and and there's a price that they pay as you'll hear. So find a way to say uh thank you and and we're so grateful that he found time to spend with us and thank you to Lisa for making that connection. And without any further ado, the great John Spencer. It's a great honor and privilege to welcome Colonel John Spencer behind the Beimma together with us. Uh you're a real hero for Israel, for the Jewish people, and as Americans, as patriotic Americans. Let's begin by thanking you for your service. I refer to you as Colonel. You are a colonel in the California State Guard. Uh you're a second lieutenant major who served for 25 years in active army as an infantry soldier. And so we begin with gratitude, which is where we should always begin, which is thank you for your service. Thank you for uh putting your life on the line. Thank you for your duty. And thank you for continuing to fight for freedom, justice, America, the American Israel relationship. If nothing more, the opportunity to publicly say thank you to you. We're so grateful for all that you've done. Well, thank you, Rabbi, and it's it's a honor to be with you, and I appreciate all those kind words, for sure. So, your bio speaks for itself. Um I think many know you and follow you and appreciate your uh expertise. Um you're a scholar, a professor and author. Uh as we said, a national security analyst and today you're the chair of urban warfare studies at West Point. And it's hard to think of a better pedigree or to speak with more authority on definition of urban warfare, the morality of warfare, the ratio of civilian and combatants and all the issues that have been going on in Gaza. And yet, despite the authority with which you speak, the expertise, the real life experience combined with the academic scholarship and the and the data and the studies, uh, sometimes you and we are speaking on deaf ears. We're trying to scream into the wind into a world who just refuse to listen because they have bias, they have hate. Why do you think that is? They're coming with emotion. You're coming with facts and with truth. And why is Israel's war and the justness of Israel's war, why does it continue to be so misunderstood in your opinion? Yeah, that's really complex actually. Um, I appreciate it and I do I mean although I served 25 years in active duty army, two combat deployments to Iraq, plenty of urban warfare experience myself, I rely on the actual facts and the data both from the research that I've done for over a decade on urban warfare, but also being on the ground um where somebody is making their basically opinions off of what they're viewing on social media or videos or see lack context. I've gone to Israel many times, well, five times since October 7th, four times into Gaza with the idea. To answer the question of why does the world, of course, you have what I've come to learn because I've covered war around the world from Ukraine to Nagana Carabach, literally around the world and written case studies from wars across the world. As I started covering Israel's war after October 7th against Hamas and Gaza, it clearly became evident that people had something else in their mind to start basing their opinions off. You're right with the emotion. Um, this war is unique because it's the first war really of this scale that that is fed into every citizen, every civilian around the world's phone through an algorithm-driven social media device and which feeds them the the horrors of war and and we can't gloss over that. I mean, war is it is hell, it is death, it is destruction. But when I started to push back against the lies that were being stated about Israel's from day one of what Israel could or couldn't do within the the law of armed conflict or just from a moral perspective, I came to realize that there's definitely anti-semitism, anti-Israel. Um, of course there's an anti-war crowd that I've been dealing with for years as well, but this was a, you know, just a a hurricane of [Music] pre-etermined kind of thoughts in their minds being fed by the horrors of war to make really rapid emotionfilled decisions and like, well, no, no matter the investigations, no matter what actually happened or how war works, this is what we declare, you And then you have of course mean there's just so many um angles of this rabbi of like organizations that had some people don't know them so they think they're the credible organizations like the United Nations you know office of high commission of human rights and the people like oh that sounds that sounds really important and then they say something that is of course in line with what they've said for years about Israel or war or anything but people just Well, not only am I matching what I see on my cell phone, but look at all these credible institutions that aren't credible if you know them, what they're saying. So, you asked me that overall question, but it has so many tentacles. I, you know, I'm not Jewish, I'm not Israeli. Um, I I I'm a researcher. I research war uniquely to going into war zones to make up my own basically um decisions based on analysis of what I'm actually observing. But I also am a man of character. So I you know I stand up for the truth and what has been said on so many different levels about Israel's actions is just the opposite of truth. It's lies disinformation and liables. I mean the whole list of awfulness. Absolutely. I'll tell you and here's the thing that makes me worry and I I hope you can comment on this. As Americans, as proud Americans, of course, um super connected and proud and and and love Israel as well, but even just as Americans, the standard that so many in America in the media and certain politicians, elected leaders are holding Israel to. Is that what they're going to hold our army to? If, god forbid, America's drawn into another conflict, if Americans, and there are Americans held hostage right now in Gaza, but if Americans are captured and held hostage, will some of these elected leaders who are so falsely accusing Israel of genocide, who are misrepresenting and distorting facts about these ratios, who don't understand what war is all about, and that while we don't welcome it or want it, we will do whatever is necessary to win it. That's always been the way that war has been has been fought where we care about our civilians before we're willing to prioritize others. And it's all on its head. And it's almost as much as we're living in a world that can no longer define basic things like genders. We're also living in a war that can no longer define basic things like how wars are fought and how outcomes and success and winning is reached. You have people today who are embarrassed and ashamed and wish we hadn't won World War II the way we did, even though it would have cost millions more lives had we not done what was necessary. And what makes me concerned as an American, not only somebody who's fiercely loyal and loves Israel, but as an American, is what would happen if we have Americans are drawn into war? How will our army, how will our military be able to fight and be able to do so in a way that we can win and win decisively if these new expectations and standards and definitions of war and ratios, what we're willing to do to get hostages back, how we live in such a world? And do you see that? Do you see America's military actually potentially being compromised or at risk if this is able to gain further foothold? Absolutely. And a lot of people ask me usually is the first question, why do I do the things I do? Like I said, I'm I'm a man of character. I do believe the truth matters, but I believe red, white, and blue. You know, I'm I'm a American veteran. I do research for West Point. I mean, absolutely. One of the reasons I've been so staunch and and I've written furiously is because I saw these lies, misinformation, attacks on western basically way of war, right? The ability for a western democratic lawabiding and that's a small list law-abiding nation's military to even defend itself which is the case of Israel. I mean an existential threat invasion of their country to destroy it. Um which actually translates and matters when you start analyzing the value of a military target or the an operation. I I I absolutely saw all of this coming and why I was prepared and again with great knowledge becomes great responsibility or I had to say something. All of these lies about, you know, the casualty counting, the use of large bombs in urban warfare, the requirements to do certain things, obligations of like civilian harm mitigation. All of these things were silent if not vocal in human rights groups and the United Nations. Even in the US military's experience, they said these things about us. So in you know the biggest battle of the entire Iraq war was the second battle of Fallujah in 2004 the same actors who hadn't had as much power at the time and they've risen in power said awful things about the US military said we committed awful war crimes intentional killing civilians all these things but it just didn't stick and for many reasons that we talked about on the on the global stage but I'm actually very vocal because if the things that have been said about Israel since October 7th specifically their military operations in Gaza, a just war executed justly were to be the new standard. I mean that is part of you know the delegitimatizing of Israel is to create these double standards. I call them Israeli standards like this civilian to combatant ratio as a student of war writer never existed as in like that's determinating the determinating factor of whether anybody should support a war is what what's your civilian to combatant ratio in real time right these standards yes if carried forward would prevent any law-abiding democratic nation especially United States from actually defending itself if not supporting other allies ies and preventing wars which most people don't get right the whole just ceasefire now crowd which is actually an argument to continue violence and death and killing because of this is I mean war is necessary unfortunately because war is human and and there is evil humans who gain power and that's what we saw in Hamas by its definition but they're not the only ones you're right with the hostage taking if if you don't If you don't stop it, then it only continues. If the October 7th style attacks were to continue, it would not just be seen in Israel again and again. It'd be seen in other places. And God forbid if these people had success, it absolutely matters for American military, American nation that these standards that have been discussed do not become an actual standard because they're not and they shouldn't be. If I could um take this conversation in a slightly more granular um nature, it's amazingly impressive what you've accomplished, what you're doing, the writings that you've doing, the moral clarity that you speak about. Um for the average listener, you know, there's been this proliferation of almost this uh infatuation with war books and military books and how you can integrate that into your everyday life. You know, whether it was Admiral Mcrist about making your bed or things like that. In your work, obviously you have a mouthpiece and you have an ability to communicate about the moral clarity need in our day and age. What would you say to the average person? What are some of the lessons that you've learned in the battlefield? What are some of the lessons you've learned in your research that you could go to the average American whether it's the east coast, west coast, middle America, doesn't matter, and say based on my research, based on my experiences, these are some things that American society, Western civilization is missing, and I think we need to do a better job of, you know, incorporating that into our education. Oh, that's a that's another big one. Um, of course, I'm I'm a student of war. Um and as you know people have said history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. So this again is understanding why is war necessary. Um some people would like to believe that we don't want any wars in any time and of course we don't want the horrors that happened in World War II to ever happen again. But then underneath that in an education program you would have to understand what is in place to prevent wars like deterrence theory like so basically there has to be consequences for any person's actions so that both to deter them from doing it whether it's a non-state actor like the you know the ring of fire that the Islamic regime in Iran built around Israel with all of this this kind of global international order that I think I wish more people to including the United States understood is that the only way we have peace is that if we have these international rules and norms of things that both nations and non-state actors can't do without severe consequences and that's when you know I'm not a wararm mongerer I actually believe there there should be less wars and that and that the laws of wars should be followed But we have this global ignorance on what what has happened since World War II to prevent wars. Like the fact that a war of aggression is a war crime or the fact that you have to have these consequences and nations have to fund their own defense to be able to ensure that we all live in peace. And of course, Israel is very unique because of the threats it faces on almost every border. But I mean that's one of the it's kind of these fundamentals of laws international order when a war has been necessary to include appeasement right so um in the United States we're we're we're back to a trend of believing that there should be no wars okay that's great but there's also this element of the history of war where the idea of well if you just let them get away with this that will stop all the killing right Now that's appeasement by its very definition which led to World War I which led to World War II which led to other smaller wars is this idea of like well you know we'll just push this down the road we'll give them what they want right now even though we all don't agree it you from the from the very global stance like Russia's invasion of Ukraine or other elements that that appeasement has led to these horrific wars But we had this counterargument here in the United States where we just don't want any wars. Like, well, that's great. Um, but there's many reasons why there haven't been wars and it's really hard to convince people. So, it takes education on what has happened in the past, what is happening now, what what what stops that. um like consequences like just like October 7th. There has to be severe consequences to Hamas, the political leadership with the military of Gaza for October 7th just for the simple calculus of to prevent it from ever happening again. You can't start a war and there not be consequences. For sure. Now, now judging from your your accent, you're clearly from Brooklyn. Um, what uh what in your upbringing uniquely positioned you to be this voice of moral clarity in a world that's so desperate? Is it parents? Was it a school? Was it an experience? You joined the mil military at a young age. What inspired you to do that? Um, what are some things in your upbringing that prepared you for this role in life? That's a h these questions are so good. Um, so I joined the military really at age 16 17 signed the paperwork. Um my mother raised us three children working three jobs really where there wasn't an option to quit. So I of course I took a lot from my childhood but then I was re kind of rerised in the US military and I as a a young teenager um experiencing why we have a military, why soldiers fight, um what what are these values that you become a a leader of character as we say. That all prepared me to be able to one critically think but also understand that that comes with also a value set which America you basically leads the nation under a set of values. The US constitution and the principles that were the foundation of that and the US military is a reflection of our society. I mean of course that 25 years of active duty military experience gave me a lot of basically defining moments right. So you can have all these ideals about character, values, your foundations. It gets put to the test. Um, and I had many of those tests in my military career which allowed you to put yourself as an individual to the test to include even since October 7th of I had all this information. How could I not um stand up for the truth truth based on having this access to information? I I can't say where that one point is, but of course it's that whole journey that I've been under. It was the same um in other wars of like I don't want my children living in a world where the truth doesn't matter. Let me let me uh put you on the hard seat. The hot seat now. These were the easy those were the layups. Those were the soft questions. So um Colonel Major Spencer, here's the question. We named you the prime minister of Israel this afternoon. We give you his office. We give you his power. We give you his control of Israel's military. What do you do next? The hostages are being held. Kamas refused to come to the table. Um, you know, I think all of us on this on this uh conversation believe in strength through power. And Israel's doubled down, right? Just today, they're creating a second Philadelphia corridor. They're dividing Gaza into further smaller groups. They're going back into Rafa. and they're trying to stretch their muscle, flex their muscle, and um stop humanitarian aid, electricity, water, they've run out of flour, bakeries in Gaza have closed. But here you're dealing with an enemy who has no value of life. So if the Gazin civilians, to whatever degree we call them innocent civilians, but if they suffer, that only plays into Kamas's hands. So where's the leverage? What do you do? And how do you prioritize bringing hostages home? But at what expense? It seems like the only way to bring them home is to just acquies to whatever kamas wants. So if you want to show greater military but put people at risk, is it from the air and have the world come down on you because you're killing so many civilians? So we name you prime minister this afternoon. We task you with winning this war, bringing hostages home, eliminating kamas. What do you do next? So I wouldn't wish those jobs. I say I don't do politics because I've been to war and I've done that. Um but war is politics. So that question um number one thing I would do is would be communicate more right so from the both the prime minister's office but also the ministry of defense um one of the challenges in this world of disinformation is just fighting the battle of the narrative so having a state uh to say to be spec very specific about Gaza although I try to roll people back since October 7th on why has Israel done the things that they have done since October 7th Well, you have to put that in the framework of the sevenf frontont war. Hezbollah attacking the Islamic regime in Iran attacking. So what was needed to be done in the beginning versus what could be done because all war is also fought within an international context. So as a prime minister, not me, the actual prime minister of Israel has to fight daily on you know not just seven fronts but you know managing the allies, managing the the geopolitical context of what is actual feasible, acceptable in Gaza itself since we've gotten here. So one is to communicate daily like what is the IDF doing on a day-to-day basis? that level of communication is in this world where you can win every battle but lose the war. Um, in this world of information operations, the battle of the narratives like we started talking about, you have to communicate more. You have to you have to push the facts more. Um, from whether that's the aid situation in Gaza, the humanitarian corridors, the evacuations, what Egypt's doing. um from a military perspective into the hostage situation which is the number one number one strategic priority priority. It is the fact that um personally I would direct the IDF to continue operations until Hamas is willing to have a a conversation which they do although they don't value life and I agree with you since they've deployed this human sacrifice strategy of trying to get their civilians killed and they've been successful unfortunately in that they have some rationality in their interest of surviving and the gains that they they have and we have seen a combination of not just military power lead to hostage releases. Um but we've also seen you know the the unfettered relationship with United States and Israel has led to more success because once Hamas saw a divide during that political you know the presidential election it it didn't see an interest to even coming to the table or giving any hostage up. Ultimately, there is both short-term goals, of course, bring the hostages home or force Hamas to let the hostages go since it's on them. Uh but there's also the longer term goal of preventing this cycle of violence continuing which require which we've seen since really in the in you know the change of the IDF commander uh many changes to the leadership there's also a change in the strategy and I would as a prime minister again fictitiously be communicating that these changes I would be communicating these changes because ultimately war is a contest of will and Hamas has had many signals from Israel to the United States to just keep fighting. You have a chance to win. There's nobody willing to pay the price it would take, which would mean IDF soldiers deployed to Gaza until until necessary. It would take you evacuations of civilian population. It would take many elements to do this correct you to include the time. Going back to the earlier question, one of the problems in all societies or worlds is they think that they can have their war, even a self-defense war, and it could be over quickly. That's not the history of war either. Um, in order to defeat Hamas, both militarily it's been defeated. Politically, it still thinks it will maintain power. is you have to signal that you have the will to do what's necessary to include occupy Gaza to include assist in governing Gaza until that there's an alternative um forcing you know as a prime minister again I think there's been little attention paid to Egypt's role since October 7th in forcing an intractable situation in Gaza in in closing its gates in violation of its own refugee conventions it signed So short answer is I would communicate daily on the path forward but also signal both in real military power but also in real international consensus that Israel is going to do what it takes within the law of war until as long as it takes to achieve the clear goals it set which is Hamas cannot govern Gaza and no threat from Gaza will ever come at Israel again. But that takes a commitment. So as the prime minister, you have to you have to state that daily, whether it's, you know, a Roosevelt or other personnel daily fireside chat. Um, in this world, you have to communicate on a day-to-day basis. Um, even if you don't know what the ultimate instate it will look like, you have to communicate. Israel is willing to do what it will take to achieve the goal to include bringing the hostages home, every one of them. um immediately. Did you say that Israel defeated Hamas militarily already? Absolutely. Could you elaborate on that? Sure. So I do that from a military lens, right? What we call military combat power analysis. Hamas on October 6th 6th had a vast military, you know, five brigades, 24 battalions, 20,000 rockets, the ability to project power, the ability to hold ground, do attacks at a large scale. As of today, Hamas doesn't have a military. It has a guerilla force. Of course, the numbers that people count. That's not how military analysis works. Military analysis is do you have a military? Right now, Hamas doesn't have a military. And whether it's the rockets that it now shoots one or two or it's largecale formations that can actually do assigned missions, Israel has dismantled that and it's it's ability to do military operations, right? that's really definable. And we have this combat power analysis about leadership, weapons, units, training, all of these things. The only people, and again, I can argue by with facts that say the opposite is they just say, well, look, Hamas has as many fighters as it did on October 6. I'm like, look, that's a measure, I guess, but that's not a military. That's a lot of people who are willing to fight for Hamas, but again, that goes to will and they can want to fight all they want. They have to have certain military means to do that. Um, and Israel right now can project power anywhere in Gaza. Um, it it has the ability to stop, which is really unique in war. Um, the US military didn't achieve this in many wars. The ability to stop Hamas from being resupplied of weapons, finances, or even fighters from outside of Gaza. Israel sealed the like you like you talked about the Philadelphia corridor. All of the over 100 tunnels coming out of Egypt that were the oxygen to Hamas's military have been cut. So, what Hamas has in Gaza is what it has. And one of the things it doesn't has is a military. Wow. Just gota it's it's a question on what you just said and I'm just wondering this is on a lot of people's minds right now and as an analyst maybe you can shed some light. You know you said they don't have a military but is the average person living in Gaza the average what we call a Palestinian are they enemies of Israel? And and Elsa, just as a followup, what I was going to ask before that was, has your your your your outspokenenness about your your your analysis of what's going on in Israel had a personal toll on your life, taking a personal toll with your friends, with your family in a negative or positive way. May maybe people are saying, "Oh my god, I had no idea. Now, because of what I'm hearing from you, I have a whole new take on Israel and what's going on." So, I know they're two very different questions and just wondering what you're thinking. They're two great questions. So on the basically the of the two million civilians or two million the population of 2.2 million of Gaza, how many are you know registered Hamas both political and military? Um and then supporters of Hamas which is from a war perspective for me there is you're either a combatant in the war or you're a non-combatant which is protected. Um, of course you can turn yourself into a combatant very easily um by partaking in the hostilities which is I've been trying to again going back to what I would want people in the world to know is like war 101. Once Israel started once Hamas started the war and then Israel declared war against Hamas that put basically combatant non-combatant. Um it is one of the most radicalized populations of the modern era that that's also not disputed thanks to you know the textbooks that have been publicized to include by UNRA facilities and UNRA employees the population I've watched which is really hard to watch as a father of young children Palestinian Sesame Street teaching you know children in in Gaza to that you know to kill the Jewish people destroy Israel. Um the summer camps that were run in Gaza, over 100,000 kids ranging from 5 to 15 every summer training to kill Jewish people. You cannot discount that radicalization, but from a war perspective, and even since the ceasefire, we've seen Gaz and civilians rising up to say Hamas is not what we want. They're not saying that we want peace and we want to live side by side, but that's that's a start of something. Um I don't know what the true sentiment of all of all the civilian population is. Um I do believe strongly like again an analyst of war massive dradicalization of the population would be required as a part of the way ahead right and there is massive dradicalization programs post world war II both in Germany and in imper in Japan um to include um the students in every school marking out in their textbook anti-western pro-war kind of sentiments all that would be necessary and there's a whole field of study So I I I won't say that every civilian in Gaza it wants to destroy Israel and the death of all Jews like the Hamas charter multiple versions says but I will say that it's a highly radicalized population. Wow. On the second question, um I have faced um which is revealing to me a lot of both real consequences for my stance for the truth. Um my research in Gaza with the IDF in my writings. Um before this, of course, I I operated within the human rights, good intentioned groups, um civilian harm mitigation groups. I've lost uh a lot of those people that I consider colleagues and friends. Um even other war researchers who say that somehow my positions aren't based on research, which is is odd. I' I've been attacked by almost every organization. Um to include people trying to get my job as a researcher for West Point threatened. um to attack my credibility as an expert, to attack my actual voice, say that I've been paid by Israel, that I've been given special access by Israel. All of these things, of course, all of that was surprising. Um it doesn't deter me at all to standing up for the truth, for the research that I do that I think is very valuable. as I say, you can lots of people can have their own opinions about the war, about October 7th, about Israel's operations in Gaza, but they they can't have their own facts. Um, and that's that's really important to me. So, absolutely. But I've also found, you know, mountains of people who say, "We appreciate your work. Um, we we really value you standing up for the truth." Uh and it's it also exposed the enemies of the west as we've seen across the United States. Many of these people who dawned a you know pro Palestine, pro- Hamas stance were just looking for an anti-western cause. So, um, it's also brought me into the light of trying to combat these strategies heavily invested in by groups of anti-western thought, which is really, you know, again, important to my heart is that what they're saying is the their topic of today is is the it's actually anti-western, anti-American stance. So, I've I I've you know, it's opened up a whole new world of research that's needed or groups that are actually wanting to fight disinformation. Can you bring your expertise to address um President Trump said something what many perceived as radical and and the truth is before he said it and within the Jewish or pro-Israel community, if you said it, you'd be labeled radical, which was that we need to relocate the Gazins. It's going to take 10-15 years to rebuild Gaza and Egypt and Jordan. Maybe Syria in exchange for recognizing a new government. Maybe it's other countries um need to accept refugees from Gaza got to clear it out if you're going to be able to rebuild it. And people uh certainly on the left went crazy. Um that that's somehow biased, hateful. Um how could you do that to innocent civilians? My very amateur understanding of war is that in almost every if not every war certainly when one side starts a war and then loses um they are not in a position to simply put things back to the way it was. You can't just uh you know press reboot and go back to what happened before you try to eradicate the other and that there have been refugees and relocations as a result of every significant war in history. So is that too an expression of anti-semitism or anti-Israel sentiment? Is it just naive to think that this is not a consequence of war? Is that an accurate description of the history of war? And is that a really tenable solution going forward? Yeah. So there's two parts to that question. One is president. So the refugee statements by President Trump absolutely ahistorical very unique and Israeli standard um backed by anti-Israel thought or you know all the false narratives to say that there's an actual war going on and there are civilians in the combat zone started by the other side. Um and for the other nations to say look we're not going to help out. They shouldn't have they should stay in the combat zone. they should be at risk of dying and all that comes with that like Egypt did. Um, absolutely. President Trump's traumas were the right statements that should have been said from day one. Even wars going on right now, uh, like in Ukraine when Russia illegally invaded, millions of civilians fled the combat zones and were taken by step one, they were given the ability to leave um, as in actual passage through countries, but then also welcomed as temporarily by other countries in Europe and and other places. Same thing for the Syrian war. millions of escaping the the Syrian civil war that killed hundreds of thousands. But almost every war, like you said, Rabbi, it is absolutely a violation of international norms and many refugee conventions because this is very, very almost a norm that there's a war going on. We should get civilians out of harm's way that aren't a part of it. And they should be given safe passage. they should be given access. So when Egypt on in October said not one person out of Gaza is going to go come through through Egypt, they build a new 30-foot wall. They sent an armor brigade plus of forces down to make sure that no Gazin got out of Gaza, even trying to flee voluntarily. Um, unless they paid a certain price, which most people, again, President Trump makes a quick statement that is actually true that they should be allowed to voluntarily leave and and seek passage and other nations should accept them and and help in this situation. But in Egypt's case, unless a Gazin paid anywhere from 2,000 to $10,000, they weren't getting out and over 100,000 Gazins did get out. But other than that, they had to stay in the combat zone. So, President Trump's comments were absolutely the right actual what the law, what the norms of war are about. Now, the other question you asked about kind of if somebody starts a war, do they basically there's no consequences and you everybody pushes the side that was attacked to go let the attacker go back to normal, right? Everything is back to October 6. Absolutely not. And I, you know, I have people that I read as well who are even larger view of war like Victor David Hansen or Sir Andrew Roberts, others saying it is very ahistorical for somebody to start a war and then the world to tell the people that were attacked, look there's no consequences. We just want the war to stop. No, you can act. If you start a war, you risk losing your territory, losing your power, losing everything. Um, but that's very unique to Israel as well. As if people know Israel's history from 1948, 67,73, they're attacked by many nations and the world says, "Look, I know they attacked you and you, you know, you progressed there, but the consequences need to be zero." That's very ahistorical. So even President Trump's about comments about what what could happen to Gaza isn't is historical. If you start a war, you lose a war, you can lose your territory. You can lose the ability to govern your population. You that's actually more normal than what has been said about Gaza since October 7th. That's those are new standards again that there's no consequences to the war. That that's very ahistorical. So, it's a two-part question. Refugees, I think 100% the fact that people are pushing up against pushing back against that is is just wrong. And the other one is very historical in the framework of war. Like, no, you lose your territory if you start a war and you don't win. Colonel, I want to thank you again for joining us. Um, you have a very impressive bookcase behind you and while my eyesight is not what it used to be, I think I see Prime Minister Netanyahu's autobiography on the top there. Um, what are some of the books on the bookshelf that speak to you the most and that you would recommend and why do you have them as the backdrop to conversations? So, one, I'm a student of war. A lot of people um, which have questioned my expertise, then they question what is an expert, right? So, whether you're a four-star general, you have a PhD, whatever. Um, to me, those aren't measures of expertise. It's how much have you studied the the profession, the craft, the war, the specifics. Um, it's I put that as a backdrop because those are all books that are really important to my work. A lot of focus on urban warfare, which is very unique. Um, but also strategy. Most people don't can't even say define the term or the word and then they they mis you apply it. Um, of course there's a lot of military theory because it's it it is a there are foundational theories to the science of war to military craft. So I mean the prime minister's book was one that he gave me in an interview for me as a researcher which was very unique to be able to ask a national leader in a time of war what are the objectives you've given to the military again war is always pursuit of political goals. So that one's important to me. I mean Carl von Klatsaw's book on on war is almost like the seminal book for a military professional. Um there are you know Lawrence Freriedman's book on strategy. Uh even a most recent book which is really a lot of times I try to translate the complex to very simple terms. um even uh General David Petraeus and Sir Andrew Roberts recent book called conflicts which actually looks at wars from Israel's war of independence in 1948 up through Ukraine like what has happened what has worked what didn't work and why um just to name a few but there there's so many right so uh we say you know leaders are readers for me you're an expert if you're a profession as actually studying the craft you just haven't done it you study the craft Wow. Colonel, you you know, as someone who you said a few times already, you're not Jewish. You're, you know, red-blooded American. What message would you give to Jewish communities, especially here in the United States, in the diaspora, just to understand the military reality that is facing Israel right now? Yeah. My biggest message always has been you have to fight. Um, that's it. I mean that's everybody has to fight against the anti-semitism uh to include the the what we see what we saw pop up in the United States which was not right from you know our political leaders actually adhering to protecting members of our population our communities our universities our schools our children um we have to fight and that takes everybody's effort of course get yourself informed is a way to help fight against the lies um to know what the the biggest lies are being said which are part of this of course double standard de demonizing and de legitimize to include the US military's actions but my biggest message is to fight and continue to learn um which is yeah even I've faced g talking to communities who had no clue that what Israel was doing was actually very historical as in trying to help protect civilians or very historical on the constraints they put on themselves. Uh so a lot of this is one just agreeing not to fight because it can become overwhelming if you go on social media or if you you watch any news channel it becomes overwhelming but you have to fight back. When was your first trip to Israel? What was your first connection to Israel? And and can you share something personal? Is there something you love most? A place in Israel an experience? Uh so my first visit to Israel was probably 2016. Um around 2018 I I was uh co-leading uh tunnel conferences in Israel at IDC Herelia now Reichman University. Um I had a really impactful trip during COVID actually in 2021 where I actually because usually I'm doing so focused on my research of urban or underground warfare but in 2021 I actually took time to go visit sites like where Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River um some of the holy sites and understand how important Israel is to the world. um many of the Christian holy sites, Jewish holy sites um but also the history of like Msada and other locations. That trip um that one specifically showed me the diversity that is Israel um the inclusivity that is Israel and the complexity to include you know the walls between Judea and Samaria, why those walls are there. That one trip really touched me on many levels. Um to have a that there's so much to understand in this ancient land. uh and I you know one of the sites I visited I I'll say one site that I visited because it was you know putting the stories that are in the Bible but whether it's Old Testament or New Testament in reality uh I visited the city of David ancient Jerusalem an active archaeological site met an amazing person who's this true friend today Zebornstein a good friend of ours just here he one he's a master storyteller but um can just communicate so clearly to take me into the active archaeological site, places that are ancient Israel, places that Jesus walked, all the the stories of the Bible come to life. That was pretty impactful. And I actually just got to see him again a week ago um in the city of David. So, it's hard to say which moment which which touched me the most, but there there are many. We have so many more questions we could ask. We're grateful for your time and most of all, we're grateful for your outspokenenness. We don't take you for granted. To the degree we can speak for our community and even for the whole Jewish people and even for good people everywhere, we thank God every day for people like John Spencer. And we need more friends and we need more people who stand up for truth and who know the facts. And from the bottom of our hearts, we thank you. I want to thank our mutual friend Lisa who arranged this and made this introduction and connection. Thank you for making the time and spending the time. And you know, we follow you on Twitter and your books and your articles and your interviews and each and every time we say yes, thank you. There's somebody who's expressing the truth and how we feel and what's right and what's righteous. So God should just continue to give you the strength and uh help you articulate the words and please God to till we see good triumph over evil and in this case the hostage is our home and this war can come to an end with a sweeping Israeli victory. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Wow.