Jewish Sources - Rabbi Dr. David Gottlieb

I we usually talk about two parts of the tradition the written in the oral I want to describe to you a third part which is not written in that world the written and the oral have in common that they are both in words sentences paragraphs chapters books they both in language it can be written and spoken the third part is not in language it's not in words probably can't be put into words in any practical way I used to say that it couldn't be put into words theoretically then a student pointed out that my proof was not correct so I've taken that back but certainly in no practical way it's far as we are concerned terms are dealing with it living with it interacting with it it's beyond language all together now what I want to do is first of all show you some traditional sources which indicate that there is such a thing then second what the status of such thing is if it's not in words what is it could it be right or wrong to or false factual this is just emotion and then third I want to talk about where exactly it's found Jewish Lee and how we can deal with it interact with it so first step is to resources that show that there is such a thing there's a person d'ivoire involved chapter 6 of Deuteronomy you take this verse 14 where it says you shall do what is straight and good and I Shems eyes see say you're short of a nation you do was straight and good God's eyes then I'm bond asks least implicitly what is this week I 730 Commandments is this a 614 commandment it is the other 613 is another one do what is straight good does it sum up the other ones if you do all the other things and I told you that automatically is straight and good what is the status of the state of what is doing then I man says something pretty radical pretty surprising he says this verse is talking about interpersonal relations person to person group community society the nation and he says it is impossible to write down a full list of rules for it to personal relations it's impossible to do that that was just stopping and take account here he's writing a commentary on a verse in the Torah who's the author of the tour God God dictated it to Moses letter by letter so if they're on bond right it's impossible to write down and apply to a list of rules is he saying that God couldn't write down complete list of rules sounds like it I take it what he means is that maybe there is a complete list of rules but it will have two million rules and we would never be able to read it understand it and applied for us human beings there's no way to tell us what's expected of us in interpersonal relations by writing a versus list of rules so the run bond says the Torah meaning of course bro who took a two-part approach first of all he wrote down a number of rules those rules are precise and focused scribed stealing murder applying justice charities over the so on but then he said don't be satisfied just with the explicit rules I gave you don't be satisfied set yourself to go beyond the rules I gave you to do also was straight and good in God's eyes and the reader reads that he thinks well how am I supposed to do that you're not telling me what you want and then you say do what I want even though I don't tell you I mean how am I supposed to do there we're supposed to get that phone as another verse in Leviticus by a crow where the Torah says Kadosh MTU be holy and there are mine says the same thing over again and he links to two discussions cross-references them but this time to expect the personal behavior not interpersonal with other people just personal behavior my man says it's impossible to write down a complete list of rules to tell you how you should live as a human being so the Torah has two levels first of all it gives you a number of specific rules I bet it says don't be content to that don't be satisfied with that but set yourself to go beyond the explicit rules I gave you so as to live a life of holiness and he gives he makes a remark which has become famous in our literature it is possible to be an evolved issue satoru it's possible to be a degraded disgusting personality fully within the Taurus rules so for example we have rules of cashews meat to the kosher wine to be kosher where does it say how much meat and how much wine to eat per meal where does it say that where's that written nowhere so her man says you can fulfill all the roles of cashiers and eat and drink yourself into a stupor where you can't think anymore where is it written this is a limit on that here he says because that's not wholly it doesn't express holiness that expresses the animal life of an animal so twice the ram ban says the Torah doesn't give you a full list of rules it gives you some rules as examples and then you have to go beyond those rules and the question is how do you do that how do you do that where do you get the way to do that a third source is the mysterious assuring the passive adjust right Lou tato chapter 18 he describes what is a closet as opposed to what is at attic tonika person righteous quest as a person would be I'm being righteous a customer the person who says my whole life is dedicated to pleasing God and that includes pleasing him even in ways that he didn't command he says that explicitly going beyond all the official rules but how am I supposed to know what will please God if there aren't rules to tell you what he wants we don't encourage making things up flying by the seat of your pants intuition guessing dreams that's not a Jewish approach but then what are you supposed to do or be told explicitly to go beyond what the explicit rules tell us a fourth source many times in the Talmud tomlin has to decide on a course of action or later commentators inside of course of action and situations complex because if I do a certain Jewish mitzvahs and values will be strengthened and others will be we could I do be it'll be a different group will be strengthened a weekend how do I make a bottom-line evaluation I'll give you a simple example whereas the shuttle comes out in shabbos we don't blow the shofar why not the Torah says explicitly blow the show and rosh hashanah even on shabbos the rabbi said no why because if you blow the shofar on shabbos rosh hashanah you might be worried that you didn't blow it correctly you're a show for isn't valid and you might run to find a rabbi who can tell you what he did it right or not and you could carry the chauffeur through a public domain and that will be violating shabbos so because of the possibility that have small number of people will by accident violet shabbos the rabbi said no one should blow shell for that year there I sir how did they make that evaluation who told them what's more important there's a rule in the literature no Misha that says which one is more important they had to sum it up in their minds and say well blowing shofar for the whole nation versus risk of violating shadows by a few people protecting shabbos is more important and they did that many such decisions that had to be made again this is not made by flipping a coin is that babe I you know reading tea leaves they thought about it they evaluated it and they came to a joint decision that this is what should be done so again there seems to be some way of deciding what to do decide me what's correct they call us above and beyond what we have in the written rules where does that come from what is it is just proving to you there's something here that isn't written down that's all now I lived through some revolutions in philosophy and psychology physics one of the things I lived through when I was undergraduate about 100 years ago I was really in 60s early sixties there was a thought that all thinking is in words well thinking is in words we used to be taught if you can't say it you can't think it thinking is putting words together that's what think he is having a thot means having words that's dreadfully wrong it's dreadfully wrong and in the coming decades they became to realize that it is dreadfully wrong that a great deal of thought is not in words here are some of the considerations just to make them some easy considerations to show you the status of thinking not in words did you ever have the experience of trying to put something into words look in a cloud formation talks on the phone what does it look like what does it look like how can I tell you well it looks a little bit like a sea shore with horses running across it or something like that or what does it look like let me think for a while you're looking at it you see it you're not what a shape is but you don't have the words for and then you may find the words searching for words how did it feel when he said that to you how did it feel so you sort of pull up the feeling for your memory you're feeling the feeling what word choice and then you say well it was a kind of mixture of fear and awe and privilege it was those three elements push together but they take you time to find the words now I can't be that you have no thought until you have words because what were you trying to find words for somebody says to you was it irritation no that wasn't voters how do you know that wasn't what was how do you know that's wrong word if you have no thought you're not gonna have an idea in your mind how can you disqualify word and say it's wrong obviously you have a thought you have an idea there's something in front of you and you're looking forwards to fit it friend of mine has been working at the Applied Physics Laboratory of Johns Hopkins University forever well they build satellites and ballistic systems and armaments for submarines of things like that he told me at one time they had a problem that on a sonar scope certain schools of fish looked like enemy submarines and that's not good because you fire torpedo at a school of fish you're wasting and torpedo so it was important to figure out which is which there were two people in our Navy who could reliably tell they look at the sonos scheme they see the figure and they could say no that's that's something that's fish and then one died so I said why did they ask them to describe what the difference is he said the Navy thought of that that's so dumb they thought of that they said then what's the difference between the ones that look like facial ones over like submarines and they said well the ones those like fish look like fish and the first was like submarines looks like celebrates they just look different we see a difference and they were this is objective because you could test them show them slide us to slide and they get it right every time they just couldn't put it into words math what about the petitions do is they try to prove things we have axioms you try to prove something true or false how do they search for a proof do they have hidden away in the safe in the back room a secret book of rules so here's how you find proof no and in fact we know from certain fundamental theorems proved in the middle of the 20th century it's impossible to have such a book of rules mathematicians look at it and think and let things hit them until an idea comes up on the screen here comes up they bat it around for a while see if it's worthwhile worked out with well they canceled that screen and go back to looking at and hoping something happens some mathematicians are very gifted they look at the thing and I think about it and something comes up on the screen and others don't do they don't become a tradition become cooks or bus drivers or if you have any dumb the process of looking for a proof is what we call intuitive so to play with it and see if something happens creativity is like that generally same thing in science you have a theory you get experiments which contradict the theory what are you going to do well you're going to think about it until something happens now in all these cases what's going on isn't put in words but its objective thought the reason subject is logically should check you could check whether they get it right or wrong when those guys said this is a submarine this is cool the fish the people showing them the pictures know what the picture was taken up and they know that they got it right these mathematicians sit around and they come up with theorems that's what they're employed as mathematicians because they regularly prove things fans with empirical scientists when they have trouble of a theory they sit and think try to think of an alternative but when they think of an alternative and then they test it very often it tests correct so we know there's something about grasping the world that goes beyond words and it's very important it's crucial a lot of progress is made by using that kind of thinking so when we say that this piece of Torah is not putting words not expressed in words one should not therefore say well it's only second class it's not objective it's just feeling is poetry that's nothing to do with the real world on the contrary on the contrary this applies that say in psychology look at a person and you wonder what is his mood what is he feeling yet people could take a look at him and tell you exactly what he's feeling of the people it's a blank personal takes a look Reed's body language often that's a gift you just learn somehow what other people don't learn you look at the person you could tell what he's feeling sometimes they could tell you this is what he's feeling and this is what he needs do this and you'll see you'll feel better or listen this will happen they make predictions how do you test any idea you ask for predictions have you tested and they're right you deal with the person in the way that you were told and then the person breed acts in the way that was predicted then you know these people know something about the world that the others don't know so when I say that it's beyond language that should not be taken to downgrade it at all it's just a part of how we know the world by the way this is reflected even in halacha let's say you're a judge and you're dealing with the case and there's evidence witnesses come and they say this all this and this and this you question them across examine them they pass all the tests but something bothers you something bothers you it just doesn't feel right what do you do you say but there are rules the tradition has rules ask these questions get these answers see if there are contradictions I followed all the rules the the law is if you don't feel confident that it's right disqualify yourself don't render a decision in other words trust your intuition to that extent if it doesn't feel right then there's something wrong and disqualify yourself don't just say well that's just feelings I just want and just throw it away no because there's a way of grasping what's going on is beyond the rules beyond the words beyond the formulas and that also has validity and it also contributes to the way you make a decision okay now if all this is correct where does it come from where does the non linguistic part of the tradition come from here it's an opportunity to make a gigantic mistake gigantic dangerous mistake well God created me he gave me a soul and that soul has a natural connection with divinity with what's holy with what's true with the Torah and when the feelings well up inside me that's God communicating with me and that's where this non linguistic understanding comes from that's absolutely incorrect we're not promoting subjectivity here it's absolutely incorrect and by the way there's a whole religion based on that idea and it's Protestant Christianity everyone has his own private revelations something appeals to you and it feels very deep and feels very positive so that's true there's no echo of that in total the source of this in this understanding is in prophecy it's in prophecy just like the source of the linguistic traditions and prophecy the Torah comes from the homeland for Moses the other prophets writings come for prophecy and divine inspiration this also comes from prophecy because as ron van says and kuzuri says and the run bob says and others prophecies a total experience prophecy isn't like getting a postcard in the mail dear dear so-and-so ABC side God prophecies a total experience so much so that this is recorded in a famous verse prophet Samuel comes to habits Samuel comes to soul he says to him I want to go on a trip and on the way you will meet some disciples of the prophets you too will prophesy then they have factored leash out there you'll be overturned into another person when someone has prophecy he becomes another person it has an impact on him as a whole person not just worried said he remembers so much so that aside for Moses went someone had a prophecy he was reluctant on the ground he lost control of his muscles lost control of his mind lost control of his perceptions lost control of his azz motions it was a totally overwhelming experience when he came out of prophecy he's a different person he was a different person prabhas he left it imprinted him and that difference in who he was showed in the way he acted the way he interacted with people the way he lived his life so much so that when the tradition describes why Joshua took over from Moses why did Joshua take over from Moses the answer is because Joshua was Moses servant Machaerus motion he never was absent from his tent if you look at the first verse in the book of Joshua that's what it says and the gondolas commentary there he served them so that he wasn't content with Moses lectures he wanted to absorb as much of Moses the person as possible so he attended him he washed his hands he served his meals he was within day and night and that's why he was chosen to be the second leader of the Jewish people because he had more of Moses than anybody else because part of whom Moses is shows in what he does and what Moses is is the supreme profit there is no profit greater than Moses or as great as Moses not before and that since now since the time of the exodus the Jewish people had 1,200,000 profits 600,000 men and six hundred thousand women prophecy was very common for a thousand years prophecy was very common every Jew lived with profits every Jew spoke the prophets interacted with profits and that means because they were prophets the way they interacted with people showed this residue this left over this remainder of what prophecy does for a person what that prophecy does to a person that's the source of the non linguistic part of the Torah it came from an experienced it expresses itself in behavior and becomes available to other people to experience that's where it is and that's how its communicated it comes from God just like the linguistic comes God the whole of our tradition comes from God doesn't come from anyplace else it certainly doesn't come from inner intuitions that's not where the tradition comes from cousin a divine injection into the world and that's what its origin is now if thats what its origin is and if that's what it is it's something which isn't put into words how do you learn it well you can't learn it the lectures are books you gave me one in two words you learn it by interacting with the people who have it and this will depend upon a person's preparation for this or a natural talent for this what is this like this is like advanced sports you're throwing a ball you want to be flipped Leandra quarterbacking you're throwing football and the coach says don't throw it like that throw it like this and he shows you he didn't say use the four fingers more and more tightly spread the fingers morons over the zone he shows you you look at him and Ed you get who you don't and you don't get it then you be go play chess you don't play football you watch what's done and then you grasped by watching what the dynamics are what the crucial features are and then if you have the coordination to implement it you learn all of this non linguistic learnings like that I Delta philosophy I took a couple of courses with a very eminent professor and he would throw out problems for us then we would work on them and then we would give him our answers and he would show them why there why is that wrong and then he would tell us his answer and sometimes people estimate how did you come up with that answer he said I've thought about it thanks a lot that's really helpful and sometimes he would say well you know I thought this and then this but how did you start with this and why'd you move to that I don't know so he tells you when either you get it or you don't I I played a musical instrument and I performed classical music many times there's such a thing as musicianship you can get all the notes right and the music is awful it's just mechanical musicianship means give it feeling how do you do that I'll show you what it means there's a famous line in Shakespeare to be to be that is the question right now suppose somebody said oh I know how to be dead to be or not to be that is the question don't be an actor because you didn't give it any meaning but I said every word that all the words in order i pronounce them clearly no one have any question what I said yeah but you didn't communicate anything you didn't say anything you didn't give it a meaning so you hear Chatha Heston or some other great actor reading words listen they come alive they communicate the whole thought the whole attitude how do you learn to read like that you listen to great people learn to me you look great people read like that and either you get it or you don't then rules for reading pause here emphasize that word and say these true music you're playing music where are the phrases are they for bars aitbar 16 bars should you put the 16 bars together or break it up into two a pilot well play it here it and sing it breathe it and it'll come if you're gifted if you have this talent it'll come out making sense different performance do it in different ways that's why different performance can perform the same piece of music and it says different things when they perform there's always room for new nuance new new way of expressing things at any rate the way this is communicated is through experiencing those who had it that's why personal contact is so important it's important in general watch a person be present when it when someone prays or when he interacts with people or when he's making a difficult decision or when he's under stress I watched someone I will never forget this was in Boston was morning Dominic chakras Erika chakras my reverie was there I was there and someone whom we both knew weld came up to my Rebbe and started yelling yelling and screaming at him I was horrified I was horrified so I put myself in between them facing the other guy and I walked at him and just forced him the door I turned back therapy was perfectly calm / 50 Cal sittin how can you be so calm he said when he started to yell I said to think about what's going on at home and what is facing all I felt was hey that that poor fellow is dealing with those brown allergy I wouldn't have reacted that way I saw it I saw it nope that was like an emblem for me so this is possible possible for you and being three spot like that maybe actifry research resources in myself to move somewhere in that direction this is something you absorb by interacting with these people and that includes learning that includes learning when you interact the prisoners learning and he faces a problem and he deals with the problem hasn't answered then the answer doesn't work and that goes back so you see how he how he takes it how he deals with it I don't know if you know what Texas is but somebody has Rafael salon sir how I your only certain amount of time to learn I'm killer tomorrow with rashi she's commentary but that's all he said is that ok should I do that Oh Solange is supposed to have said I don't know the source of stories about to said you're not going to learn choices how do you learn you Russia mine I will learn fear and all of heaven what what has stasis got to do with fear the wall of heaven I thought the approach of ptosis commentary is to take whatever is said in this page and look up every other place in the entire tablet and work hard to make sense out of all of it what pushes someone to make that kind of effort fake that kind of responsibility is because this has to be understood it has to and has the globally understood and everything in the end has to make sense or at least you register where it you can't make sense out of so then you learn all of heaven for the way toys just attacked learning that's the way in which this material this part of the tradition is is communicated its learned from interaction with the people who have it just like the other not unless language elements of human life the last point that I want to make is how are the two parts related to one another this is crucial and it's not at all immediately obvious you have the linguistic which is written the oral on one side and you're the non linguistic on the other side how are they related to another is it just the two parts of the tradition and I guess to get all of it you'd have to get both of them because otherwise something we're missing sort of like sports and Chinese history sports is a study Chinese history study if you know if you left one of that you know everything but you wouldn't expect your study Chinese history to affect the way you understand sport nor vice versa it's not like that at all sound like that at all truth you can't have one without the other or you can't have a deep grasp of one without a deep grasp of the other they are interdependent i want to show you that in both directions imagine a person who says i'm into virtue I mean to sainthood and I'm going to a culture the culture and I'm watching people isn't seeing you know how they live how they act or how they did with people I deal with problems I want to understand what it means to be a saint and imagine that person observing great Jews yes people who are great revered Jews and close to observe them I think he inevitably is going to get wrong impressions for example this is an incident that's a place once about time a woman came in town if I told you this story I thought some of the sheer reasons it a woman came in on Friday morning to the rabbi with a chicken a dead slaughtered chicken and she was concerned that maybe the chickens kosher there are happened to be teaching his students at the time so he said to her I understand your problem of the chicken please wait until I finish the class this year chuckle fine she's sitting there and how it goes by RAF close by she says the rabbi look it's getting late and if there's a prob with the chicken it's gonna be hard for me to get a chicken in the in the market so I really need you to look at the chicken man places oh oh oh we look at chicken now okay Hey look says the chicken says it's kosher thank you very much it goes on the students say the rabbi what happened here you never did that before he kept awaiting an errand here she was worried the rabbi said when she walked in I could immediately see there was a problem with the chicken it's a problem about which the authorities are split some say Scotia slope sideStrafe and the overall policy is if it's gonna cost a lot of money and effort then you could say it's kosher but if it can be easily replaced then you have to say it straight okay this woman is a poor woman if i gave her a decision at the beginning the market was open for another two hours she can easily get another another chicken I would have to say that his trait she'd had to go and borrow the money it would be a hardship turn I waited till the market was closing I'm very difficult to find out the chicken now because it's very difficult I could Lu leniently and say that it's kosher that's why you did now I imagine this Saint collector watching this woman comes soon wait hour and a half she's in distress she asks he finally gives her an answer she goes out he's gonna say that's being a saint I don't Lee so I think that's being cruel I don't think this is you did anything nice in order to understand the actions of a person when he is in bad he's living a tradition you have to know the rules of the tradition if you don't know the rules of the tradition you don't know what he's doing it's like watching two people playing chess without knowing the rules was that a good move or not I know maybe they're setting up a japanese rock garden what are they doing with these pieces of ditches you know moving them around thought it was a good move or not if you don't know linguistic if you don't know the rules that they're operating with you're not going to be able to understand the great actions of people the sainthood of people on the other hand if you don't have access to the experiential you can't understand the rules either I'll tell you an incident I was told by the person happened to many years ago as a young woman who was a student and you never see in the Boston area Kevin on religious home didn't know any religious Jews she's Jewish um somehow she got hold of dying Greenfields book the Sabbath Thank You field netbook goes through the 39 block of the 39 forbidden activities on Chavez she read through it and she told me when she read it her reaction was horror look at all the things you can't do you can't take a shower you can't answer Mike a phone call you can't open your mail you can't write a letter you can't cook your breakfast can't carry things outside she said I'm sure she was sure that living shabbos would be just waiting for the next mistake sort of neurotic sense of when am I going to trip it took her months to get up her courage to keep her first shop it's now she's all alone there's a totally negative shoppers no shabbos songs and communal meals and diving with songs and sarah study just negative but she got a pro courage and she did it and the result was that she didn't feel neurotic she felt relief she said I realized how much of my life is based on interruptions taking telephone calls and answering letters and various chores that have to be done with this one now another ten o'clock at ten-thirty have to be there and some of the so on she said I had a 24 hour period where I could stop and think where am i where am I going what am I trying to achieve who am i exactly she said she found it to be a precious experience and then and here's the point of the story she said I went back and reread the book she now read the book in the light of an entirely different experience these are rules for protecting something precious in life that's not just an obsessive-compulsive text forcing you to to live up to myriad of difficult rules it's creating something that's precious now a great deal of understanding the Torah is experiential you cannot create for a person the feeling of shabbos by describing the loss of shops even reading for the songs of showers if a person doesn't experience its Percy's present with a family see the interaction between parents and children are the parents with one another go to to dive inning and see how the davines conducted to the children there you have no idea what shabbos is and the same is true with many many aspects of Jewish life of course a pesach seder the holidays in general suck especially cellco Starro the dancing the singing the celebrating a funeral when someone great passes on now they have funerals and here the funerals have tens of thousands of people sometimes hundreds of thousands of people folia Shiva goes there is an impression you come to see Shiva and sit here in this little hill and you study think okay so about three or four hundred people that's it go ad you see this the streets black with people as far as the eye can see in both directions and you know round the corner that's another black seen around that corner is another black see you realize you're part of a big community it's not one little corner over here that's an important thing to realize is important thing to experience so the when you do that and then you come back to read about the lives of the patriarchs to the matriarch of the prophets and the Talmud of the rest it's experienced in an entirely different way the linguistic and the non linguistic are interdependent they're intertwined with one another and i think this observation is a critique of at least the jewish study programs that i'm aware of not all the ones in the united states or other countries but if you have a Jewish Studies program that's only books and lectures then it is crippled if it doesn't have programmed Jewish experiences then it's crippled and if somebody says yeah but look if I take someone to a shabbos experience or to uh to a holiday experience isn't it sort of like doing religion but then isn't you're using religion and why would that be wrong in psychology and anthropology you have field trips why can't you have Jewish field trips ok leave that for the academics to sort out I'm just pointing out that intellectually it's deficient because if you don't have the experiences you cannot possibly understand the written and the written and the oral the linguistic part that's why it's crucial if someone's experimenting with Jewish life it's not enough to come to achieve it and attend the classes i'm not talking about commitment now i'm not talking about pledging allegiance not even talking about believing in God but I'm talking about experiencing a shabbos experiencing a holiday I say for men and for women experiencing classical models of Jewish study and they're different men studying Sheba's women studied seminaries and they should try yes it's very heart official why the all men and all women separately yes yes try it I know one one incident that happened but it's unfinished a man was from fella was riding on a bus in Israel and another of these fell sat down next to it and he knows that the fruit fellow had a book and it had lots of numbers in it and he was writing numbers so this is Israel so the name of this I said what are you doing and I did you lose yourself and man we're all brothers under the skin yes I'll tell you I run a free loan society we give out money without interest and their schedules of payments and I'm just checking his schedule for a paper if not religious man system I don't believe you nobody gives out money without it just people don't do that you asked me right I'll tell you what for me you want to see it come to my synagogue such and such a time we do this a certain hour of the day come and you'll see the guy came and he saw them people coming to pay people coming to take out money contracts being signed you read the contracts and is no interest he was floored his fluid so the froom fellow thought this guy came and he saw maybe I could build a bridge with him he said listen I'm going to a hassana wedding why don't you will your wife come and see what a Jewish weddings like of all the experiences for a non religious person a wedding is probably the most accessible so he said yes I'll come give me a battalion invitation from where what it was now so this from fellow said he put me posted someone at the door when they'll come to sort of greet them and I should live in they come to the door obvious by the way they dress you could tell who they were and they look in and they see a divider all the men on his side and all the women and that side at the vibe they weren't prepared for that so they either talking to each other turning around they're gonna leave but the person who is posted the door saw them came over 20 how do I see you nice of you to come I hope you'll enjoy hope you'll join us and enjoy you know the man was taking the bad side woman was taken to the woman side they had the time of their lives they never dreamt that wedding could be like that we have getting drunk without men dancing with other members other men's wives and some of those are they never dreamt there could be that kind of joy they learned something that's a bridge some of what you need to learn is what it's like to experience life as it you what it's like to live like a Jew if you don't have that all the lectures and all the books will be missing a crucial element and you won't understand the lectures in the books either so the two dimensions that I've been described in sefton are crucially intertwined with one another a person has to go after both I know saying this to you I'm preaching to the choir to the converted you're here and you're doing it but there are three recordings here and maybe and you'll tell other people that sound enough to from time to time website read something as much more that needs to be done than that