Peelers, Nutcrackers, Candy Dishes Etc. Do They Require Tevilah?

Who come on board with Shimon Shimon Shimon Shimon welcome everyone Today is the ratio from Zachary Smith Wallace of scale and response to the issue share ties 7188518651 email IST I just even at camera of Smith. We have to we had a few new Silas about scale and which is really part of one Sugo that we never discussed. Someone bought a candy dish was cause I'm to be wasting my time with talking today about a scale that has the right material it's made from metal or gold or silver or glass made by a guy but he bought a candy dish but he knew that he only serves candies with wrappers and those the dish will always hold in in a in itself but he never never touch the actual candy and only touches the wrappers. Is that a reason to pass the scale? Well someone asked he bought a new task and new better tray and again the wine usually not supposed to spill into it and if it does you don't use it is there any offer that here to scale is only when the scale touches the actual food. Today people put aluminum foil into pans is that a reason to pass the scale because it doesn't touch the actual scale itself. So the truth is that this is a Sugo that needs clarification because as we'll see there are many Silas and we'll even talk about a toaster oven which is really related to this. But basically let's talk about a simple Silas a person serves on a tray he bought a cake tray. It's glass it's high in scale forgot to tell about it. Is there a way to put down a napkin or and put the cake on top of it so the cake is not touching the actual scale? So in Svaro it really doesn't make sense that that should pass the because if it's a dinner in pastures of bleachers you could say if you have something in between that stops the bleachers from traveling. But we'll soon see is that a dinner in pastures you buy a new scale that's 100% kosher you have to tell about it. The reason is the task was the only to bring it to Israel. So why should it be different if it touches or doesn't touch. But listen to the advice of the advice was the rabbi of the sheet and the result and he had the following Silas someone bought a basin >> [clears throat] >> from a guy which is metal and he buys it he bought it to cash dishes with it. So after advice he has to tell about that dish. Why? [clears throat] Because the mice is using it in the context of a healer he's cash during silverware he's cash during plates so it's enough of a clean suit that is high in scale. >> [clears throat] >> You have to realize according to this advice there's absolutely no harm in it that has to touch the food because this basin that you cash during dishes there's no food. So obviously the advice understood that the scale is something that's used in conjunction with a meal. Quickly suit even a very stretched quickly suit is enough because at the end of the day if you have to tell about a basin that cash is scale and it is no food to touch so certainly a candy dish and and a cake cake platter and there are others that seem to hold like the advice the in the back of the the head of the second tailor. According to this we have our dismissal today because everything is high in scale. >> [clears throat] >> But there is there are three that say differently. The parrots which is on the bottom of the smack and the cooks out of the test says what's probably the most important you say for today. And he says that basically the scale is clean suit and and he says the following if you have a scale they call trip is or in Ash and as the right foot the right foot is three legs a tripod in those days they didn't have ovens like we have or they didn't have stove tops and grates they had a fire they had a three legged piece of metal like a base you put the pot on the on top of that the right foot on top of that tripod so you didn't put the food into the fire it would get burned so that basically held up the pot the fire cooked and that was a the old fashioned tripod the the one of the ancient tailor it's so important to cook the food you need this tripod so after parrots but it doesn't touch the food it's not a clean food so here we see from one of the was before the advice that if it doesn't touch the food it's not a clean food and if you need a little more emphasis he makes a contrast I will gradually blaze roast now I'm just speculating roast might be roast but this gradually is they say again blush and Ash and as is grillish so here you see a windfall of information the parrots holds it has to touch the food but the greatest contrast is a tripod versus a grill a grill for those who don't know on the barbecue you put the food on top of it that touch the food tripod is very important but doesn't touch the food so if you want to know where do we find the source for this concept as to touch the food the parrots on the is on the smack and the difference is the grill versus a tripod the Maimonides in the beginning but what's more significant because it makes it even more smack the back of the desire at the hey says the following if you have a cover that you put on the bread when you bake the bread it's not high in scale then he says but this grill that touch the food is high in scale but a regular part of a cover pot cover does need scale so we see from this that again the same is that has to touch the food but what leaves us wondering is what's the difference between a pot cover that cover the food and a bread cover what's the difference we'll get to that that's part of the of the Sugo but no doubt about it as we see that this question is is the only high in scale when it touches the food is a we have three versus the advice and obviously that's why the in our save valid goes with the that if you have a grill is high in scale but a tripod doesn't touch the food is not high in scale now the mice if you ask me so what's back of the head but okay you have a technicality why is it totally in touching the food so the mice we have to learn the the by the side of the base the says that from the clean major that they they took from the after they were victorious in war so the mice had two devices to perform they had the first cash the scale and when it was kosher they tell about it >> [clears throat] >> so after that means you're telling me that when you that the scale you tell about was 100% kosher scale even though it was tray but cash during we have a man makes it kosher so if a kosher scale needs scale it makes sense that a new scale also does I know a new scale is kosher but big deal right if it's a scale then the asked the obvious question why is the of scale totally in pots and pans and silverware why not hammers and scissors and screwdrivers it's also scale so you're making a mistake it's not scale per se it's clean suit apparently to bring a healer you have to have a scale so here we see the side of the Sugo the two words that you might use is is clean suit I we can understand the parrots and see after they hold to be a clean suit it has to touch the food if not it's not it's not like a clean suit the sheet and says was a little more generous with the definition as long as it's used in conjunction with food in fact some use the lotion it's okay so the question basically is how much does it have to be a clean food but no doubt about it clean suit clean food is the deciding factor now since again the explain that that clearly that you have to have a has to touch the food that's why the Maharam says it so again if someone says, "Where do you get that?" you say it has to touch the food. Kuf kaf seif dalet. Now, again, it's not a question of tarfus. Cuz don't forget we have to toivel even a The Gemara says in you have to toivel even a glass and a pitcher which presumably is used with tzeinin. So, there's no tarfus. It's not a din tarfus. It's something that touches the food is enough of a kli oichel as chayiv in tvila. So, this is basically the yesod. Let me just give you one more illustration. Reb Zalman was asked in the in the sefer tvilas keilim, siman reish lamed zayin, a very unique question. We wouldn't think about it, but I guess if you learn and you want to get the full sugia, this comes up to comes up to our thought. Do you have to toivel a metal ice cube tray? Now, again, typically ice cube trays are plastic. I'm talking about metal. Do you have to toivel an ice cube a metal ice cube tray? Why not? So, the shaila is, well, the whole parsha midian was talking about pots and pans and kashuring. This is freezing. More so, they didn't have freezing in times of the the the psukim in the Torah and in Shulchan Aruch. Maybe freezing is not part of tvilas keilim. Reb Zalman responded, also printed in Minchas chelek beis, siman sameach vov seif kuf, not only is it chayiv in tvila, but even with a bracha. Because kli seudah, it prepares the food. It makes ice cubes. So, it has to be in the Torah? It's the same idea. Kli seudah muram b'parsha. So, that's why l'maaseh, the two words for today is kli seudah or touching the food. Those That's the yesod of the chiyuv for today. Now, Baruch Hashem, we have decided let's apply this l'maaseh, but I want to make a point I think is a mitzvah l'farsem. Because very often we have shailos about tvilas keilim. We'll soon see numerous shailos. So, some people take the easy way out. You know, I have no patience, I don't have the time, I don't have the the energy to learn the sugia. I'll toivel it, big deal. Do I have to kashur mikvah in the mikvah? No. Bracha? Well, I'm not sure, so I won't make a bracha. And they even quote brachos eima akvis hamitzvah, right? And we even find in halacha you toivel bilei bracha. But that's a very wrong approach. Because if there's a safek and Chazal say toivel bilei bracha, fine. That's the halacha. But if you don't know the metzius and you really it's a clear-cut chiyuv, so let me tell you a teshuvah of the Maharshal. Maharshal is in siman sameach ches quoted by the Taz in taf reish sameach ches. Listen to see what it means a bracha on a mitzvah. Someone asked the Maharshal, why don't we make early Shmini Atzeres? We can't make early Pesach because of balaila. We can't make early Sukkos also alila. Shavuos, forget it, tmeiman tmeimos. What's wrong with Shmini Atzeres early? Toisefes Kedusha is a wonderful thing. So, the Maharshal says, you know what the problem is? Because you're going to end up making Kiddush, it's going to still be me boi yom, it's still going to be Shayaana Rabba. Don't forget you're making early Sukkos early Shmini Atzeres. What do you do about the leishuv basukkah? Because really it's still it's still Shayaana Rabba, you make a bracha. But then again, it's you made it Shmini Atzeres. And we pasken Shmini Atzeres you suvi as vinan, buchelei me v'cheinan. So, you're going to have to make Kiddush and not make a leishuv. Zog the Maharshal and I quote, it's an aveira godol hu v'goizel chasham habracha if you um mo'el bahem if you do a mitzvah without a bracha. And the end he says, "And therefore, it's an issur godol to make early Shmini Atzeres because you're ending up being denied to make a bracha." Now, I would have said, "Wait a second, I'm trying to get toisefes Yom Tov and I can't make a bracha. What should I do? Is that my fault?" But if you put yourself in a matziv that you deprive yourself of a birchas hamitzvah, it's an aveira godol hu mo'el bahem. Now, that's a chiddush. But you don't need a Maharshal to say if you just toivel say, "You know what? I don't have the bracha. Yeah, okay, let me toivel without a bracha." It's not an option. You have to learn each each question and approach cautiously to know do the right thing. So, that's why l'maaseh, as we'll see, we definitely take the approach of learning and seeing is it chayiv and number two is it chayiv in a bracha. Let's start with a few simple shailos. A blech that goes on the grate is not chayiv in tvila, just like the grate is not chayiv. I the blech is very important. Important is not the deciding factor. If blech doesn't touch the food, typically it doesn't, there's no chiyuv tvila. A another example would be a plata or a hot plate where you put the food the pot onto that. Again, it's very important, but it doesn't touch the food. It touches the pot. The pot is not the food. There's sometimes you have a fancy affair, they have a charger plate. Charger plate is a bottom plate that you don't put food on it. Why is it there? To make you look feel fancy, whatever the point is. But at the end of the day, it never touches the food even though it's a regular a porcelain that whatever or whatever is chayiv in tvila, this is not chayiv in tvila. Now, you buy a new grill, so the embassy says, this is a grillish. The part that touches the food, you toivel it. The bottom base, which is really often a tripod, and has a a kaili, a receptacle that you keep the coals, that's not chayiv in tvila. Even though it's more important than than the than the grate, because that's making the fire. But then again, it doesn't touch the food. And that's the chiyuv part. >> [clears throat] >> Uh someone has a a saucer, a plate in the bottom of his teacup. So, if he never puts food on that saucer, so it's like a charger plate and it's not a pot from tvila. Now, if he puts cake on it, oh, then it's a regular kli oichel. A challenging question is what we began with, a tats, a tray of a becher. Now, someone bought a a becher once and then he bought a tray much later. Do you have to toivel that? And again, as I mentioned once before, the fact that it's a religious item does not mean it was made by Yidden. It's more often than not today made by and Yidden they they they import it and they make some money, but it's not necessarily the fact that it's a tatsa who Chinese people use tats. No, but they make money on it. So, when I'm talking today, I'm talking about it's the right material and made by a So, the embassy says that past this, it doesn't touch the food. But then again, when you make Kiddush and invariably sometimes you want to make it a little overflowing, kois yeshua'a, so it it goes into the tats. Zog the sefer tvilas keilim, it's it's amud reish lamed hei, that l'maaseh if typically it's not made to catch the food or bury it. If it does spill over and that wine you don't slurp up, you spill in the sink, it's not a kli oichel. And he says, "Einam tzein tvila at all." Not even bilei bracha, it doesn't need tvila at all. And this is the psak because it's not It's basically it's not a kli oichel. Now, l'maaseh, some people, especially those that have chabivus of the of the of the mitzvah of kois shel bracha will sometimes need be drink the wine from the tats. I know someone that's very has a very great affinity to kois shel bracha. He's also a stickler for it. So, if the mevarech drinks the kois, he can't drink from the kois. So, he always takes the tats and I guess no one's looking, he slurps it up. Reb Zalman said when he was a child, he remembered Reb Zalman who was known to be a a a mefuneik adir. But he had such a love for for kois shel bracha that when he finished the kois shel bracha, he even drank up from the tats, he drank up the wine. So, people of that type of nature, they use the cup tats. So, it is a kli oichel. It is a kli seudah, touches the wine. So, [clears throat] what what's the psak halacha regarding a tats? It depends me v'mei acharonim. It's simple, it's not a different It's totally in the in the in the usage. If you sometimes drink from the kois, you use the kois, or sometimes you pour the wine from the tats back into the kois, then it's a kli oichel. If you never use that wine, period, you go either you don't spill over or it goes in the then it's not chayiv in tvila. Now, naturally, the wine that we put out the Havdala candle is not considered kli oichel and that's not used. So, basically, the halacha would be and it's probably kedai to toivel bilei bracha right away because some people do use it. You never know who's going to use it. So, again, toivel bilei bracha is seems to be the right answer and it's kedai takke to toivel takke l'chatchila toivel bilei bracha. Another perf- beautiful shaila which brings out this point is uh in in camps and in in catering halls, they have the way they carry these big trays. And on the big tray, they have a five or six small trays. In our camp, we have them. That is not chayiv in tvila. Even though it's touching other food, but the food doesn't directly touch the tray. Now, you say, "Yeah, but sometimes it spills onto the tray." Well, the waiter is not supposed to put it back on the plate. So, that's not the right way of doing it. So, we could say that that type of tray is not cannot chayiv in tvila. More poshit would be a trivet that people put on the table and you put the hot pot on top of that. It's a metal design, whatever it is. Again, it doesn't touch the food. I it touches the pot and the pot is the food, but there's no doesn't touch the food. A beautiful shaila would be a person bought a new microwave They call it a tray, a turntable plate. The kitsa, you put it in and that's really where you put the food on. So, if it's plastic, we pasken plastic not chayiv in tvila. We're talking about a glass turntable plate. So, again, this is totally in the usage of the person and it's not a sphere that I toivel and you don't. If some people will never put food directly onto that turntable, it's always in a in a kaili, then it's not chayiv in tvila. It's It's no different than a grate of a stove top. So, it's not chayiv in tvila. >> [clears throat] >> If people sometimes put raw potatoes, other type of food that directly onto the plate, so then it's chayiv in tvila. But more often than not, it's most of the time I put something covered on the on the turntable. Sometimes I put food directly on it. So this is a big Sugya and that is the Sugya of Ra of Tashmish. Let's say a person will tell you I would approximate approximate that 10% of the time I use the actual plate for raw potatoes etc. But 90 plus percent of the time I don't use without something there. So it's Ra of Tashmish. Look at the tour. Does it mean Tashmish? Look here. So this is a big Sugya we discussed a while ago but the end of the day the place can assume that such a Kaylie should be toiveled below brocha. Because it's hard to say it's Kli Suda Mamish if 90% or 80% or even 70% of the time it's not a Kli Suda. It doesn't touch the food. So again it's K'dai if a person knows he never ever does it. So but occasionally then the Ma'aseh you buy it you toivel it no brocha and this way you're safe. A crock pot I'm talking about as opposed to a pot that it's one one unit a crock pot I'm talking about has two parts to it. You have the heating element the shell and then you have the the the food container or the dish whatever you want to call it and that goes into the unit the heating element of the crock pot. So one thing is poshut that the heating element the shell of it is part of the T'vilah. Even though it's most important part of the crock pot it warms the food but it's metal doesn't touch the food. So even though it's metal it makes no difference. Patur. The question is about the insert that dish. So they used to make it from a unglazed earthenware. Chares is patur from T'vilah no doubt about it. But today they make it a glazed so it goes back to the original shaila of China and and and porcelain. So if the material if if it's metal there's no shaila for sure not because that's a regular Kli Oichel and it's metal. But even if it's a glazed Kli Chares that would be the old shaila of porcelain and China but that is called Kulei T'vilah below brocha. If you have a metal insert so it's like a metal pot then you toivel it with a brocha without a safek. I just had a Kishka Mishka shaila and Mama says it fits in beautifully but it also brings out the point from a totally different angle. Someone I'm I'm not vouching for the facts he told me. This is what he told me. On Yom Tov he knows he makes food in a disposable pan. So you put it in the oven it's easy but he puts the oven the disposable pan onto the fire of the gas range and it burns the food he can't be toiveled. So he has an Amsoh and he Machaven to the caterers. He put he has he bought a a dish a wide dish he puts water in the dish a metal dish and he puts the Bechel of the aluminum pan with the food into the into the water. Like the the caterers do they have a Sterno and then they have the the plate with the water and then they have the chafing dish on top. So he's Machaven. So he puts he bought a metal dish full fulls with water the water gets cooked and it and it cook and it warms the food in the disposable pan uniformly. Great idea. Do you have to toivel that metal pan that that the the water boils in it? So it's unbelievable because Mitzad Echad this is a real B'liyas issue. If the water is treif then the food is treif because the the water penetrates the walls of the of the pot. So had it been a din of B'liyas if that would be the criterion then this is about the Chiyuv. But since we say it's not a B'liyas it's not a kashrus issue. It's a question does it touch the food and the answer is this pan does not touch the food. So this would be a case of a Karka case. Till now we spoke about no B'liyas yes touching. Now it's yes B'liyas no touching. Now someone asked me but I the water gets cooked so be Chiyuv the water. The answer is you're not drinking that water. So it's water that's being consumed so this would be a valid case of tour but more importantly the contrast is illuminating. This is B'liyas potentially without the touching the food. Next group of questions is a Sugya for itself but it it it's it gets more and more exciting as it goes along. Let's start with a simple shaila. A can opener. Do you have to toivel a can opener? So this is basically the Chiddush of Maril in the Minhagim on a tough kuf tzadik zayin. Maril said what's Maril? He hits with T'vilah L'makadeach shel yad she menakvin boi barziz achavis. Now this was probably the first type of can opener. It wasn't a can opener it was a hammer that they made a hole in a chavis and they took the wine from that hole. So again it wasn't a can opener Mamish but close enough. And yet the Maril Maril held you have to toivel that that that Mikadeach. Why? For the Shach more than why. And the Shach in his Got Yod Aleph he says I don't understand. It doesn't touch the food. So how could you Machayev this hammer to to T'vilah it doesn't touch the food? And he says L'maaseh he holds ein tzorich T'vilah the like of Maril. And the Chaim Yagen so it seems that Mikadeach of yesterday is not Chiyuv in T'vilah doesn't touch the food. Now the question is what did Maril hold? So if you look in the La'eiketz Tzion Yosef also from the Bnei Ashkinaz a few doireish after the Maril in Omed Peh Zayin he says Maril held you have to toivel a Mikadeach because a feel any Machshir Oichel Nefesh tzorich T'vilah. Now I think what he meant to say is two Chiddushim. Number one sometimes the Mikadeach does touch the food. And also even though it's not Machshir Oichel it's only Machshir the barrel. Again it it doesn't make the food better it makes the barrel usable. But that's Machshir Oichel Nefesh Chiyuv in T'vilah. So I think that the Maril is somewhere related I mean in Svara to the Radvaz. They both say Machshir Oichel Nefesh is enough to be Chiyuv in T'vilah. But the Shach and that's how our place can Yoreh De'ah the Shach says absolutely not for two reasons. Number one it doesn't typically touch the food and number two it's not a Kli Suda. You know you can't darshan English word but I'll do it anyhow. It's called a can opener. It opens the can. >> [clears throat] >> But it doesn't make the food better. I'll give you a Mashal. Imagine you have a mischievous bunch of children and they always open the refrigerator and it's not time to eat you don't want to eat. So you can invest the money you buy a lock and a key and you lock the refrigerator. That's it you can't open it until meals. Do you have to toivel the key that opens the refrigerator? Ridiculous. It's no more than Ma'aseh M'ne'ah. So a can opener removes the obstruction that's called a can. So the So so the Shach and that's the meaning that all the place can go with that. The Rav Yasha said the Feirish Rav Osel said this that we go with the Shach that it's not a Kli Oichel. A can opener is a can opener. Well you see it even more so this got some reason you don't see it in our time but years ago you had a you had a a can of pineapple juice. So what you do you had a different type of can opener we have today a sharp edge and you made two holes and you poured it out. So it's Machshir the can. It makes the can usable wonderful but not a Kli Oichel. So can opener we can assume is patur there's no reason to toivel it. Now L'maaseh I it's important that it's so are so is a tripod but it's not a Kli Suda and not Chiyuv in T'vilah period. Now this makes it more poshut to understand that a corkscrew is patur from T'vilah. A corkscrew besides never touches the food and doesn't make a can it just takes away a blockage. So corkscrew is patur from T'vilah in ganz. Now again another contrast that makes things a little more clear. People have the shaila this used to have it more popular now it's coming back again and that is a a bottle stopper. You need this a stopper. What is that? You want to keep the wine airtight or you want to have you have soda that's carbonated that's going to lose its carbonation. But gets you have a metal stopper bottle stopper a stopper and you push it into the bottle it keeps this the wine and soda to your liking. Is that Chiyuv in T'vilah? So L'maaseh Rav Yasha and this is Rav Yasha in Kodesh Nashim Amud Ayin Vav he says the following Chilik. If this keeps the food properly in other words it's working with the food keeping the carbonation within so it's Kli Suda. It's work it's being Machshir the food. But if you cover something with an exotic cover it shouldn't be affected by germs in the air that's a Ma'aseh M'ne'ah. In other words the Lamda says that if it keeps the food proper it's a Kli Suda. If it keeps out proper from problems that's like a Ma'aseh M'ne'ah. >> [clears throat] >> Now that's one Svara. So in other words a stopper keeps the food in its with its perfection. It's Kli Suda. But then many place can say another Chupta I found beautiful. Because those that use a stopper there's there's an added benefit that you can lay the wine down in the refrigerator you don't have to stand it up. Because if it's so airtight it doesn't leak out. Now the Ma'aseh is when you lay down a bottle of wine the wine touches the stopper. So it's basically touching the wine. So for these reasons the place can T'vilas Keilim also says this. Now he just he seems to be a little uncertain if that's enough of a Svara to Machayev T'vilah with a brocha. So the again T'vilas Keilim says that if L'maaseh if you do lay it down what B'shiva then you should toivel it below brocha. But even not like that, if you keeping the wine in its perfection, that's enough here of tfila below brock. I felt in the safe also says they should table it below brock. Next question, a very intriguing question. I I always thought one way and it seems the place say differently. And that is a nutcracker. Now today in the instant society no one has time to crack nuts, but I think Pesach it's still used a little bit. The kids a nutcracker, you could crack walnuts and filberts, do you have to table that? And if yes, do you make a brock? So the embassy says that a nutcracker prepares the oil. It's very much a clay suda because you can't eat a walnut without cracking the shell and this does that. So it should be no different than a peeler. You Now someone said, but why is that a mason minaya? That's wrong. A mason minaya means there's an external problem I want to keep out. But here the nuts need a ticken. Just like the the the the the potatoes need a peeler. So this is a ticken oil. Forget the boy you could call boy the rice because it's ticken oil. It's a Wait wait good good good good. So this would be a not a mason minaya and this should be a clay suda. I doesn't touch the food, so I don't know about you, but when we pick up nuts on shabbos, I nutshells are muktza. There it is called money it's a it's connected to the peanut the nut or whatever it is. It's part of the oil. So when I crack it it's the part of the oil. And again I'm not dashing English but I'm doing it anyhow. That's it's called a nutcracker. It's not a shell cracker. See, can opener, you know, dairy smart is a can opener. This is a nutcracker. So if you understand that you that it it it touches the food and the shell is part of the food you should table with a brock. And talk of the Zalman says emphatically. But this is again this is an analytical genius this is what he looked at it and this is the slime of basin of samach vov. He says if you bring the the nuts with the nutcracker to the table that's a bonafide clay oil because that's where you eat. It's like a peeler. He says now and he said I said and if you have a coconut cracker ain't anything a day in mess cuz that. But if there is an an a a coconut cracker which you don't bring to the table cuz it's a pretty big operation then it's not high in tfila. But a nutcracker is almost like a like a like a clay oil. It's it's master of the nut. And he talk says it's high in tfila. Now the shani in with a brock, yeah. The father. The shani they also discuss his nuts and his you saw it is that even though it touches only the clayfa, but he says the master of the clayfa is part of the oil and that's why he says if you have a dish that you use for the serve nuts and you only serve unshelled nuts you have tfila with a brock because it's the the clay is touching the shell which is part of the clayla. This is what I always thought and it makes sense to make a brock. The safe of tfila scale and the metal metal with brock. And he calls up but if you have a a coconut cracker that's not high. This is what we looking at it. Then you have Rabbi Yashiv called in the you table it below brock. But what really is pretty convincing after you hear it Rabbi Zalman of basement hey he says loy me boy if you hold that a scissor that cuts the vegetables off the ground is part of tfila. This is also part of tfila because both of them are master of the oil but it's not direct. But even if you hold a scissor is high in tfila that's because it you cut it on the vegetable itself. Zok the Vazner that the zim the shell is not the oil. He's assuming that the shell is not the oil. And then he says more so I even believe you don't make you don't have to table it at all. Cuz what you doing really is you just making a mess. You smashing it to pieces and now you have to take out the nuts from the mixture. So it's not even master of the nut. If you peel a vegetable so you have now peeled vegetables. So it's ready to eat. But when you crack the nut you made a you made a mess. And this remind me of the ugly towel. This is also ugly towel his type of thing. The ugly towel says you allowed to crack you allowed to use a nutcracker on shabbos. Why is it a clay boyer? Clay boyer is also even for immediate use. So he says a nutcracker is not a clay boyer. A nutcracker is a clay that makes messes. It makes the mixture. After you mixed it up you have to take it out. So I guess Rabbi Vazner held not only it's there's no brock but no here tfila at all cuz he calls it you making a mess so it's not even master of the nut. So now I started to wonder could I tell people to make a brock if Rabbi Vazner is not to? And probably the right thing would be to make it table a brock. But if someone feels keenly that the nut is part of the the shell is part of the nut and he makes a brock Rabbi Vazner loy yifsi. Peeler vegetable peeler, potato peeler is is is a yama of a different and I'll explain. Past this a peeler is a regular clay oil. It's a it's a it's a very good knife that that peels well and it some say it's a clay boyer in fact which makes sense, but the master is master the vegetable to eat. So why shouldn't be high in tfila with a brock? However there's a fact that we mentioned in the previous year and that's basically a my real the same my real but in a different sock. I real is quoted in C F A of our simon. My real says if you have a knife you table it below something you putting out from tfila. Why? Because I to be considered a clay suda it has to be master of the oil la clayla. After you chef the animal the animal is is inedible. It's raw and it's tray for it has to be kosher. So zok the my real it's not if you can't eat it right after this function of this clay it's not high in tfila. So that's the of the Hava you part of tfila in Gaza. There are most the Hava does quote yesh we show him you high of the table below brock and the most says that's our meaning. So anything that's master that that that works with raw food we gave a muscle then the the meat tenderizer that you bang on the the the the chicken cutlets is tfila brock. Whatever you working with raw inedible food is at most tfila brock. So now the place can correctly point out if you have what's called the potato peeler now I don't think there's any difference in the peeler but let's say you have a special peeler only used for potatoes. That's tfila brock. At [clears throat] most. Because again it's not edible a raw potato. And this most places can say if you have a potato peeler it's tfila brock. The issue is most people don't have a special potato peeler they use it called above the other. The vegetables and carrots and that's edible. So this is another one of these situations I'm going to say that is a question of tashmishen. If you primarily use it for edible vegetables and fruits you can make a brock. If typically and that's the meaning most people use it for potatoes that you can't get away without a potato peeler. So then the is tfila brock. So the Yashiv in of brock he says yes he wrote a letter to the safe of tfila scale of three coin. He says you wrote in your safe for that you have table a peeler with a brock. I for potatoes there's no brock. So he wrote them back I assume that you knew that I knew that also that of course I meant when the a peeler that you use for for edible food that's that's basic column in tfila. So we going to be clear a peeler needs tfila if you only use it for edible fruits and vegetables tfila brock if it's also the brock if tashmishen is is for potato it's minimally tfila below brock. Another beautiful style. If someone has a glass metal or silver fruit bowl and he keeps fruit in the bowl and he serves it people elegant it's nice good. Do you have to table that bowl? Now what's my shila? Because you look at it you have oranges you have bananas and other fruits that have peels. You don't eat banana peels you don't eat orange peels and if you you don't even eat apple peels you peel them. So now we have an interesting situation. You have a fruit bowl and fruit is edible bananas are edible but you don't eat it you don't eat the peel. What's touching the bowl? The inedible shells. So maybe we'll say we'll make a spout it's not touching the food it's touching the shell. So this is pretty similar to the nutcracker in a certain sense because you have it's much more logical to say that the orange is one the shell the peel and the orange. After you peel it then you talk about muktza but no one thinks an orange is muktza bananas are muktza. So if you hold a nutcracker is high in tfila with a brock the two should be a this fruit bowl. Now this you have this in a few places holds like this that the shell is part of the food. That's why he says on a nutcracker you make a brock he says on a a nut dish you make you table it because the fact it touches the shell is like touching the food and there's a third time I saw in a safe that he says that a on a fruit bowl that even though it touches the peels or shells it's like touching the food and it's a regular high of tfila. So again if someone was uneasy with making a brock I can understand it table below brock but the part of the clay yifsi. Over yom tov we had a shaila someone bought a new kyara akara for the layl seder. So again, even though it's pretty religious looking, but many of them made in China. Some made in England, whatever, but let's say he knows it's made by a So the material is kyara because it's silver or metal or glass. But l'maaseh the question is is this in itself kyara and t'vilah? So the answer is again it depends on a person's usage. If someone would tell me that he always uses a dish. He doesn't put the z'roim and maror onto the actual kyara. He puts it in a glass dish. So you table the glass dish. That's p'shita. But you don't have to table the kyara. It doesn't touch the food. Now, but if someone just the opposite puts the food onto the kyara and takes food from there to eat. I mean the whatever is the maror the the haroset whatever it is. Then it's a regular kli ochel. Now I I someone is suggested maybe the fact that it's more like a religious observance. It's not a plate the pot. I don't see such a svara. What was that what l'maaseh you put food you eat from it. So Pesach night you have a special mitzvah to eat from a kyara. It has to be 365 days a year. So avada a kyara that people eat straight from it is kyara and t'vilah. Now this the kyara makes sense because again the fact that it is used to be eaten kyara and t'vilah. Now let's say you only put in in bowls glass or plastic. So it's a kyara and t'vilah. I that's the base. You can't have a you can't put the in midair. That is not different than a tripod. Base is not a kyara and t'vilah. Touching food is a kyara and t'vilah. So again a lot mileage from this simple yisoyd. In Eretz Yisrael they they all the poskim speak about it. I don't see it in America, but I guess maybe they have it in England. It's called a beitzi'ah. I thought I figured this out, but basically it's a metal keli obviously. You put a soft boiled egg into it. And it's it's it's it's a pretty tight fit. Then you crack the top of it and you eat the soft the soft egg from the shell. So again it's a metal a holder for an egg. So what's the shaila? You're eating the egg straight. But here is the interesting point. L'maaseh the keli is only touching the eggshell. So this really comes back to our original question. Touching the eggshell is that touching a shell? Or since it's the shell of a food of an egg it's considered part of the ochel. So this the poskim say the Shulchan Aruch discusses and others and they they say that this is the ochel. And l'maaseh there are enough a lot of poskim say you could even table with a bracha. But I did see that the end of the day the poskim suggest better table b'lo bracha. Because l'maaseh the the shell is sitting the the shell is sitting in this beitzi'ah in this egg holder. But again certainly the pot table like k'lum seems to be the wrong thing to do. Because l'maaseh it's kyara and t'vilah. Now this again it's not better than a nutcracker and a fruit bowl. But since we saw by nutcracker we're a little hesitant it probably makes sense t'vilah b'lo bracha. If someone makes a bracha I'm not sure if it's a hefsed. Now this in Kardelitz this in his fourth shitosah he says you you have to table it kyara and t'vilah. It's a kli ochel. Because he assumed that the egg is a ochel. Now the really intriguing the the shell is the ochel. A real intriguing question. Let's say you have a like many g'sharaim you have an egg pot. You only cook eggs nothing else. Do you have to table that? What's the shaila? A pot. But if you're going to go with the side that an egg is considered a klipah so the pot never touches the food. Which doesn't sound sound reasonable. And it's probably not. Because again here the egg is the food. The egg has a shell but it's part of the food. So avada and avada that's what Kaylim says a keli that's only used even if it's only used for for cooking eggs he holds kyara and t'vilah b'bracha. And the truth is here it's much more understandable that you're cooking the egg you're cooking the egg inside and that's considered the ochel. Another Chasam Sofer certainly says that avada that you have to table it b'bracha. But then suddenly he writes someone asked me a question. He says l'maaseh what's the safek? Even if you say the egg is considered the shell and it doesn't touch the pot but you're cooking water. Water is a kyara and t'vilah. The teretz like we said earlier you're not drinking the water. So that's really a sterno contraption and the the egg and cooking the egg is the same idea. Another important question and this has a group of questions and you have to take it slowly because it'll differ. Until now we discussed foods that have a natural shell a natural klipah. Now we're going to talk about an unnatural klipah. For example someone bought a beautiful candy dish made by a and it's metal or glass it's kyara and t'vilah. But the only redeeming factor is he puts candies only with wrappers. That's his mashgiach. Or I'll give you a better mashal. He he bought a nice dish that he puts tea bags in it. Now tea bags are in a little of a wrapper right? Or he has he puts sugar sugar packets or sweet you know artificial sugar sugar packets. But b'kitzur it's in a it's it's in its and made man made klipah. Do you have to table it? Again a candy dish is quite common. Sugar and that is quite common. Tea bag is quite common. So the crux of the issue is the fact that you have a wrapper does that mean it's no longer touching the keli? Because it the keli never touched it the inside tea bag. It doesn't touch the sugar inside. Or maybe we'll say that the bag is bottle to the tea bag or candy. >> [clears throat] >> And now it's like a a kli ochel. So until today we'll say what's the shaila? >> [clears throat] >> Who cares what touches? But now we see touching is very important. Now maybe we could even extend it a little further. A person bought a keli a cake tray. Where he puts the cake directly on it. We'll soon see the the cover of the cake doesn't need t'vilah. It doesn't touch the food. It's not mashgiach the food. It doesn't keep the heat in there's no heat. It doesn't do anything but for elegance. But let's talk about the tray itself. And he has to table it. But he has a birthday he needs a cake tray. So he puts down a napkin l'chvod Yom Tov. Does that help? Has that taken? So why is a wrapper different? >> [clears throat] >> So here R' Zalman also printed t'shuvah in Chelek Beis Siman Reshei Kol Hay. He says the following. He goes in order. What they have in they had in Eretz Yisrael I don't know if they have it even today, but they had it then. They had you bought a bag of milk. You took that milk and you put you took that bag you put it into a metal container or holder. And you pour the milk. So R' Zalman says that bag of milk is a keli for itself. Independent keli. So you don't table plastics you don't table the bag. But you don't have to table the metal holder because it's not touching the milk. So he says that type of bag is a klipah itself. But then he says but the fact that you only use it with a doily a cake with a doily or you put a napkin or you put aluminum foil in your pot because you want to make it easy to clean. So the food is touching the aluminum foil in the bottom. All that he says is not enough to make it that the pot is no longer whole touching the food. And I think he means to say it's bottle to the food. A tea bag holder whatever the right word is a little paper is bottle to the tea bag. A sugar bag is the bag is bottle to the sugar. Aluminum foil in a pot is not a pot. It's bottle to the pot. So he takes the stance that the fact that it's not touching does not make a difference. Because it's it's more of of a siman than a sibah. You the fact that it's not touching is a right out of kli ochel. But this is the way it's done. He says that maybe it's a right from this take R' Zalman from Megillas Beis. If you put something on on on a table then you put the then consider tashmish d'tashmish not to put it safe. You have to sit on the couch because the couch is the tashmish and you put the napkin on top of that the safe there on top of that that shmatah whatever it is. So that's really tashmish d'tashmish. But he says here it's a different lomdus. This is a kli ochel. The paper is there to either bottle to the to the candy or bottle to the pot. And then he says I can't I he says I can't understand the Ben Ish Chai. Listen to this. The Ben Ish Chai discusses a question that really needs clarification. If you have a glass or metal kitchen table which today is very popular. You have to table it. Because people put put food directly onto the table. So he So the Ben Ish Chai says but if you always use a mappa table cloth no shaila whatsoever you don't have to table it. So R' Zalman what do you mean? It's still a kli ochel. You put the food onto the table. Granted you have a table cloth to make it a little more elegant. But he can't understand how a keli is bottle because of a little sheet in between. So this is his mahalach that has a clarity to it. So if you have a candy dish that that that you only keep candies with with a wrapper. R' Zalman is convinced that avada it's kyara and t'vilah. Now by Yashiv also says this in Asher Ish and he says you this the of t'vilah on this keli is even with a bracha. So again the lomdus is it becomes bottle to the food. Sometimes the lomdus it becomes bottle to the keli. But This this this this is this is a kayli. The food is in this. The only thing is that it has a wrapper to it. Right? Because he also had his amazing minayin in a certain sense. But once you look at the candy as one with the wrapper then there's no reason not to toivel. Now, lema'aseh a lot of poskim say that a vadai toivel it but belo bracha. The the Chukas Hyman has a nice stick on the Hyman and he says, "The fact is that it's not And lema'aseh you can't say I am I am cooking in my aluminum my aluminum foil or I'm going to putting candies in my wrapper. It becomes bottle again to the I eat it to the food or to the wrapper. Lema'aseh it seemed that the minag is once you toivel it but perhaps belo bracha. What's again also intriguing is people make cupcakes and they have a bishop a tray a metal tray. But they don't put the cupcake batter right into the tray. They have a paper liner. So how do you look at that? >> [clears throat] >> So here lema'aseh you can't bake in just a paper liner. So poskim say a vadai that should be toiveled but it's probable not to make a bracha. The reason being that it's not enough of of the paper that enough of a of a chiyuv metza'atzvai. So either you can look at it and say, "Well, I'm baking the the the cupcake and you can have it without a paper." So it's touch it's touching the cupcake I eat the food. But then again, lema'aseh this is something that's that's a certain in a certain sense acceptable for itself. So the poskim seem to say on that case toivel belo bracha. The next group of questions has again a few interesting af kaminas. And that is ma'aseh shehaya someone bought a pot. And it was hectic erev Pesach he toiveled the pot forgot to toivel the the cover. So the next day he had to wants to know does he have to toivel the pot cover number one and number two if yes does he make a bracha? Is a pot cover as much as a chiyuv as his as the pot? In other words, if he toiveled together does he make one bracha? But he forgot. Toiveling just the pot cover is it chiyuv tvila with a bracha? So this rebbeim say is a Rama in Seif Hey quoting what I I began with. We began with the Rishonim the Igros Moshe that says on a cover that you put over bread when it bakes you don't need tvila but on a pot cover you need tvila belo bracha. And we were a little surprised what's the difference? But now we are doubly confused. First of all, why is that why is that that that that that chidush together with the concept of touching the food and and and and a grill how does cover fit in the grill? But now everything is must be drush. Because you have to realize that a cover of a pot is not a benign cover. When a person on Shabbos has to show and puts a cover on to a pot and the food is not cooked it's bishul Yisrael. So it's an integral part of the bishul that's number one. But more than that lema'aseh when you're cooking something of substance sometimes the food bubbles up and touches the cover. But even without that typically when you cook something there's always zaya. The Rosh and this is the Mechaber Shulchan Aruch zaya of the food is considered food. If you have milk boiling in the bottom pot and it go and and it's going into a chulent pot so the chulent pot is treif. Zaya is oichel atzmoi. So the achronim I'm talking about the Pri Megadim and the other achronim say a pot cover does touch the food not the actual chulent but the zaya and the zaya is oichel oichel atzmoi. So on a pot cover there are two independent sources. Number one, it's part of the bishul and number two, it touches the food. What type of food? Either the food itself or minimally the zaya. And that's why the Rama in Seif Hey when he when he speaks about the shchita knife he throws in the chein of a keili kdeira tzorech tvila. Now I had a kasha I'm happy I found the Chukas Hyman this kasha. He says, "Why did the Rama put the din of keili kdeira in Seif Hey? That's talking about the second shchita where it's inedible after the shchita. It belongs in Seif Daled which is all about grillish versus tripod touching the food. In fact, the Levush and I saw this in the that I told earlier in the Igros Moshe III puts grillish together with pot cover. So why is it in Seif Hey? He says, "Maybe it's a printing error." Now truth is today you can't say that so quickly because there's so many Shulchan Aruchs that have a they they got every last mistake out. So I don't know I'd love to hear an answer but that's a question that bothered me. But anyhow, the point that I want to say is that there is a chiyuv tvila on a pot cover for two independent reasons. This would give us an interesting chidush. When you're baking bread if you know hilchos kashrus bread does not give off zaya. Maybe a minimal amount of smoke but zaya bread is not mazia. That's why the difference is cooking food the pot cover is chiyuv tvila but a bread cover is not mazia and doesn't bubble up so there's no reason to chiyuv it. This is the cheilek between a pot cover and a bread cover and this the Shulchan Aruch quotes. The only question here is how about a pot cover a cover I say that doesn't have any of the above? Perfect example I'll give you. A honey dish that you buy for a Sukkah a glass honey dish chiyuv tvila you bring it to the table. But the cover of the honey dish is not chiyuv tvila. It's not because it's a glass of cover it's because it's a glass of what touches the food in some way. There's a beautiful tshuvas Rav in the Chasam Sofer part of cheilek Beis siman tes. Discusses the whole thing about about keili kdeira and he says this yesod. He says the end of the day it's not a din in keili cover it has to touch the food. So whatever doesn't touch the food a vadai is patur from tvila there's no reason to toivel it. Now this lema'aseh the poskim say that if you have a pot cover that you didn't toivel yet you toivel with a bracha. The Ben Ish Chai says this. In fact, the poskim clarify when you toivel just a pot cover do you make a which bracha you make? Keili or keilim? Because if you're toiveling a pot and a pot cover together maybe it's one keili. But here it's alone it's standing for itself. So lema'aseh they say you toivel a pot cover is independent chiyuv. So a vadai make the In those days they made a bracha tvilas keili lashon yachid. The Chasam Sofer says the minag today is that we always make the bracha tvilas keilim even on one so there's no difference. On a on a pot cover you make a bracha tvilas keilim. I'd like to leave you with two horas I'd love to hear from the oilam a little more but these are my questions. I never saw this before but I was brought by my attention there's something called a bottle warmer. Basically you have a baby bottle that was in the refrigerator to keep it fresh and now you want to give it to the baby. So now when we grew up we put that in the shissel religiously on the in the in the the the tepple of the the the the washing cup and that warmed it. But now they have fancier in fact it's even electrical it has a certain heating element in it. So it's a baby warmer that you put it into water but it's heated by the by the keili itself. Does that need tvila? Now assuming that you can toivel it or toivel it up it won't break I don't think it's going to break. Question is does that type of baby warmer bottle warmer need tvilas keilim? So the answer is we'll say why not? It's it's it's warming the bottle. But then again it's not touching the food. At most it's touching the baby bottle. So it it could chasm v'shalom it might be there's no chiyuv tvila. Zaycher l'davar the halacha is that kli sheini can never cook anything. So the shaila is can I put hot water because the but a kli rishon could cook kdei klipa, right? So if you have the they have water in a in a pan so the water is a kli rishon she'al gabei aish so so so eilu kli rishon cooks in ganzin kli sheini can't cook and eilu kli rishon isn't kamatzli klipa. The shaila is can you pour from a kli rishon onto a baby bottle to warm the bottle? So the poskim say yes because all those kdei klipa what's the klipa? The bottle. So here it works l'kula. And the chiyuv should come out a chidush but that doesn't make sense that a that this warmer is not chiyuv tvila. So the velt wonders about the you know the tepple that you that you warm the baby bottle that that also is patur because lema'aseh it doesn't touch the actual food. And last but not least something that needs more than just a moment but let me just present the question. We saw something interesting. A pot cover for two reasons has a chiyuv tvila just like the regular pot. Number one, it's misaya the bishul it keeps the heat within and number two, the food is mazia. Now minag oilam is when you buy a new toaster oven you take the the rack the tray and you toivel that because the food goes directly on the rack. I should mention if you only use the toaster oven with the the comes with a metal rack a metal tray but you never put food on the rack itself then you're not chiyuv that. But most people whatever whatever is onto the track. My shaila is how is that sufficient? L'chora the the toaster oven should be like the cover of a pot for two reasons. Number one, it contains the heat within otherwise it would dissipate and number two, the zaya of the food goes up onto the wall of the toaster oven. So if we see a that a cover is chiyuv tvila with a bracha so why shouldn't we concern that maybe the toaster oven itself is high with the eyes going to get ruined so do it right and that's not the issue is is it high with the oven? I don't know why one does it. I'm not sure why. Maybe maybe but I'm not sure if this is so convincing that the mice are this is this is basically not a clear it's an oven. Now we don't a regular oven for different reason because it's too big to be a and it lost the but this is small. But so some of you might say that it's it's really an oven which is not a and this the tray that holds the food but why isn't the toaster oven considered a if you have something tell me I'd love to hear it I couldn't talk to you. Okay let's just how to quickly learn today the side of the is them. But part two or maybe part of part one is touching the food. So I didn't believe it's touching so food that touches the food is high with the oven. The difference in a tripod and a grill is the side of today tripod doesn't touch the food even though it's important grill touches the food. A scissors a hammer screwdriver is but it's not a and it's totally exempt. Ice cube maker or ice cream maker whatever it is is high with the not a dinner heat it's a dinner in my uncle. You must clarify or not you can't take the attitude of play because that's over God quote to my show. A black a crock pot is not high with the doesn't touch the food a charger plate a saucer is not high with the doesn't touch the food a a a or should be with the oven. If a trivet or a big tray is not high because it doesn't touch the food microwave turntable if it's if it's glass and you put food directly on it it's high with the oven. I'd rather with the if you always do like that but more often it's only question of me you crock pot does not the outer shell doesn't need a doesn't need a oven. The receptacle if it's that's glazed or metal is high with the a water pan and a chafing dish both are not high with the obviously the water pan cuz it doesn't it's not the oven. A can opener a corkscrew is part of the a bottle stopper that's metal should be could be even with the a nutcracker the meaning is I guess to be a peeler that's only used for food is high with the only potatoes is a mixture is again a fruit bowl the meaning is to with the oven. With the the same depending if you use it with from the food itself it's high with the otherwise it's it's not high with the oven only goes in the for itself. This or the egg pot the meaning is to definitely question about the a paper lining in a in a a cupcake maker cupcake pan should be pan should be with the oven. Using paper aluminum foil doilies does not does not remove the oven a candy dish that has wrappers candies with wrappers only should be the same thing is tea bag or sugar packets. The cover of pot is with the if it's used in heat. The cake tray cake cover is part of the like the like the bread cover. A bottle warmer does not need and a toaster oven the meaning is the the tray one thing why you don't the whole thing.