Inside ArtScroll Season 2 Episode 11: Avodas Hakorbanos with Rabbi Yoav Elan and Daniel Rubin

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome back to Inside Art Scroll where the books you read and the people who write them come to life. Today we are joined by Yoav Elon and Danny Rubin in relation to Aida Sakabonus and we'll describe your unique relationship with this special safer. But let's start by each of you introducing yourself tell us what you do and then we'll get into your unique connection to this unique volume. Danny Rubin I am currently give a weekly shir in a votanas. This started way back when I learned in yeshiva for many years in New York and then Rochester where I developed an affinity for carbonos. I have sme from hinaman and I currently work at Baltimore gas and electric by day and have barred in Maryland and DC. So I'm a lawyer as well, but just my affinity for corbonus has uh thankfully allowed me the opportunity to still be a marbitta. I give a weekly shear. I saw the safer I fell in love with it. I'm learning with I've been learned through it once with the author's greatgrandson and I before art scroll took it up I translated a simmon and published that. Now once Archal has that volume, it's just incredible and I can't get enough of it and I'm just continuing to give Shirum on it as we go forward at night. Thank you, Danny. And yo, what do you do? Um, well, I am currently a writer for Art Scroll, an illustrator for Art Scroll. Um, I actually started with Art Scroll um in 2003 um with Sakas Midos. They were looking for someone at the time to uh write and eventually illustrate for the shot and steam gamarra and I happened to be at the right place at the right time. I was in Israel learning in the colo thereita also a art scroll writer. He put me in touch with Danziger. Uh we met and he um he looked at some things I had written about the B mikdash and uh which I I had been hoping to publish as a book. Uh so I gave it to Art Scroll to consider. Uh he called me back later. He says bad news uh we're not interested in publishing the book. Got my first rejection from Art Scroll. Uh but he said how would you like to write Masidos for the Shinstein Gumar? I said I guess I'll have to think about it. Uh yes, I would love to work on the shining. So that's how I started with art scroll writing and then illustrating that maka. Uh I was able to work on for other publications that they put out the Mishnay Mishna elucidated and uh since then I've been writing and illustrating uh on many different projects here at Arts World since uh since then. And we should mention that some of your illustrations are actually in this volume right here as well. Yes, they asked me I wasn't I was not participating with the in the writing of the safer that was handled by the rabbis Weiss who did an amazing job putting the safer together. Uh they asked me to do some of the illustrations and so that's uh that's the part the of the safer that I work on. So for our viewers who don't know what the safer avoid sakabonus is tell us one of you both of you what is this safer and why should it interest the average person out there? Well, I guess I could start and everybody I think has had this experience in yeshiva primarily learning nashim nikin and then there is kajima right something about the basa mdash something about kajim there's this tendency to kind of tune out well this is off topic and there is this tendency to be intimidated as I was in yeshiva um I once saw saw a hesp but a eulogy that Rabbaran Cutler gave for the Kazonesh in the back of Mishna Subbaran where he mentions that we live in a generation of specialists people feel like well this is my subject this isn't the kazonish was the farthest thing from it so he was not a specialist kurulo was his sug was his topic I decided to try and take that attitude next time I approached a kajum topic and it went very very Well, and I kept think I spent time on it and then I said to myself, wouldn't it be wonderful if somebody wrote something as user friendly as like a kitser to Corbanas and then um I was in Toronto one weekend and I was just walking past this farm store and lo and behold I actually saw that safer on the table at like the front of the store. It's like Hashem was saying this is exactly what you need. So I grabbed it immediately. I learned that the sugas the topics became even easier because just the way the author sets up the avot space amdos and the way all the avod the intricacies of the coronas are set up. They're organized in such a way it's it's kind of like learning kits shanara where what becomes complex is user friendly. And now with what Art Scroll did by taking the more complex notes and making those even simpler and adding the introductions, it's more incredible. So I guess I fell in love with the topic realizing it was not intimidating and then it was um the safer aotus carbonos made it even more friendly and more incredible to get into and as as one feels more confident as one grows then one wants to learn more. There is definitely a perception yov that the limud of kachima are for those who are learning in the yeshivas of brisk or those in elite kaburas in famous yeshivas or for those when you if you're learning dafi when you get to certain makas like the ma being learned at the time of this conversation which is yuma what have you found as far as opening the door to everyone to be able to grasp what our generally generally very unfamiliar topics. Well, again, as Daniel was saying, a safer, it lays out everything so easily and makes it so accessible that um again, it just makes everything so approachable. It takes away a lot of the, you know, the trepidation that people have when when trying to learn kudam. And everything is laid out. It's it goes cassador hay. um if you know on chabas you can look through the musafim and see what it's talking about you know how they they operated in mdash on chabas and even for people who are not kohanim I mean one thing I really liked about um learning the safer is that uh you know people have this conception that our tilos nowadays are there to replace the carbonos um which some people might mistakenly think means that they didn't davin they didn't have tilos during the times of the bases because they had carbon us. Well, you learn the safer, you see the kohanim, they dive into the base of mdash every day. So just kind of a little eyeopening things like that make the safer phenomenal. What many people may not know is that this safer sakabonus is over a hundred years old. It was written I believe in 1913 by none none other than Reb Aaron Haken Kagan. I it seems that his name is sometimes used as Kagan, sometimes not. But Raaren was the son-in-law of the tell us about him and about the approbation to his son-in-law's phenomenal safer. Uh I can start being from Kafetim. I heard from Rapani's nephew a story that many people may not know. Rdavid Liuitz the original Rashiva of Kafkim was in Sabad and he is the Kafim's nephew and there was a time that Rdav was learning moed in the col in really urged him to take on Kajim because um as you see from many much of the Kim's writing he realized the relevance he realized that we're invas and basically you're basically walking into the B mikdash when you learn kajim so mentioned that he was he happened to be in moed so the according to the story mentioned for that they have my mishnaber so he uh he then urged ru to learn kachum I don't know what happened at the end of that story but I don't know if rudd ever switched or not but what h what the kafkim's emphasis and through the kafkim's writings things about the absolute relevance of really offering corbanos through learning corbanos and after I saw the talk about that I I saw the language in mema at the beginning of safer vayikra he calls it spiritual electricity so imagine those of you that have ever lived through a blackout wondering when is the power going to get back on now full disclosure I work at Baltimore gas and electric and I've been on storm duty. It it is a real challenge. So imagining for a second that when is the power going to get back on and then the frustration of not having power the fact that we have the power of the bdash and the way the describes it. You see that when describes the urgency to learn kachim because we're literally offering corbanos. I know freeder and explaining he talks about in rashing. So why in there a higher level of elation when we offer um init? So he answers that was a city with replete with carbonos. When you have a carbon, your relationship with Hashem changes in in the blink of an eye. You just flip that switch. You've grown to be a different person. You've grown to be an someone who atoned for himself. You've grown closer to Hashem simply by these physical acts. And as the describes the importance and the urgency, it's that idea that we literally can walk into the BA mdish through learning corbonas. And the fact that as is Msiah is imminent. I just point out one other thing that um I do not know the safer as well as asani does by any means. But uh but I can point out learning it and giving shear with your website pictures is incredible. I I I recommend anybody do that when you learn the safer. Just go to Riov's pictures both inside the safer and in on the website itself. And I actually I have the powerpoints that I made for my shear. If anybody wants I'll be happy to send them a copy. But where do you give your shear? I give it in Baltimore. And just as an aside that came about because when the safer came out there was someone in Baltimore that was just taken by the safer for all the right reasons. It's incredible. you now you're literally walking into the basement mdash and he offered to pay for copies for anybody who wanted to learn through the safer. Wow. So um I believe that idea was bandied about and then I think some of the raonum in Baltimore said that well if that's where the program is we're going to go further and the program needs a shear. So, it just so happens I learned through the safer with the author's great-grandson and he thought of me and happily I jumped at the chance and then he told me about Rabbi Elon's website and accompanying that. It's there couldn't be a better combination. I do want to mention the original safer by Rabbi Arin received many glowing husks from no less than Brisker Repiser some others. Um and I don't want to forget to thank as well the author's granddaughter uh Rabbit Tares who through her support behind the publication of the art scroll edition of Aid Sakabonus. The translation on this particular volume was done by Rabbi Misha Weiss. His father Rabbi Ysef Usher Weiss did editing along with Rabbi Ara Foreman and some of the other outstanding kam here at art scrolls. So definitely tremendous credit uh goes to them for putting out what's an absolute masterpiece and it's enhanced greatly by your illustrations. Talk Rabioa for a moment about your infatuation with the Bikash in general with Avoid Sakabonus in particular. We have some of your 3D creations here. tell viewers how they could see some of the illustrations that uh Ribdani mentioned and how you got so involved in this. Oh, sure. So, um when I was younger, um I was pretty good at gamra, not too bad. I filled my notebooks during Shir, but mostly I was doodling in the margins. And um when I was in college, I was first exposed to mass midos, which is all about the structure of the second bas. So, here was a massa. It was architecture. It was math. I could not have been happier. I was learning with my karusa at the timeman in Baltimore. And so we learned through it. I started taking notes. I was making sketches. I realized that this is something that I could really, you know, get my teeth into. And so I started um learning how to do computer illustration and 3D models and you know building up my skills. So eventually when I worked for art school on that massacidos for the shatenstein I was able to come and do the the illustrations for the masaka and on my own just as my hobby I continue learning about the basa mcdash developing the model even more. I started a blog where I write uh on different topics and books about the basin mcdash and as you point out so these are some of these are my 3D models that I took from a virtual computer model and then they can be changed into a 3D printed model. So just for example just to say one this this model here this is a model made out of sandstone. Uh what they do is they put down a layer of very fine sand and they infuse it with super glue. Layer by layer they build it up and they add color as you can see here. And so you get in the end a very nice um teaching model about the base of mdash because um seeing something is so much better than hearing about it or reading about it. So you printed this actual model yourself on a 3D printer. Uh I do have a 3D printer but it does not do anything as fancy as this. This was done by a professional company uh in New York called Shapeways. Uh they print in a variety of of different materials. This happens to be sandstone. Uh they print in plastics. They print in I'll show you another smaller one. They can print in solid metal. This is a a very small steel model of the basin mcdash. and um the you know the sky is the limit when it comes to these 3D printing um models because you can print something out and put it into someone's hand and show them this is the Charikin or this is where the MSE was. It makes such a big difference when you're again when you're teaching these topics uh as I do I do slideshows and presentations on the second base mikdash. So having something to hold in your hand makes the experience and the teaching much easier and much more effective. What was your experience? you started a a blog. What was your experience as far as people's feedback? Were you surprised by how interested people were in this esoteric topic? It is very interesting because once you put something out there, then you you know you start to hear from all kinds of people and I did hear from people around the country around the world um expressing interest and appreciation for the work that I was putting into the models and the images and the animations. Uh I met um other similar people who are interested in the same types of things. Uh Yity Casawitz who does uh Jewish Lego models of the B mikdash and other things and um you know Bam it's been very successful very fulfilling experience and Baram it's it's putting a lot of Torah about the B mdash out there for the public to consume and through my I'm receiving a lot of that as well through both the safer and through the website. It's amazing what was once like an intimidating topic. What's happening now is the questions I'm getting are very very practical. People are literally putting themselves the kohan and nashir in particular are putting themselves in the shoes of the avodas space of mdash and they're walking through all the services all the avodas and saying hey wait a second how do I do this? How do I do x? How do I do y know how do I have this dexterity and you know where do the tools come from? you know, they're looking at the base of Mikdash in an incredible practical and friendly way. So instead of being like off limits and intimidating, now it's become a very warm comfortable place where people are actually putting the vision of serving in it in their mind's eye thanks to both the safer and the visuals. Now the Arts Girl volume was generously dedicated by Ellie Mali Freriedman, I should mention. We're very grateful uh to them for making this project possible. take us through the seder of this cafer. How is it set up? And the novice who knows little about a desabonus, what are they going to experience when they open the first page and they start learning through chapter by chapter? Well, I think I can just put it simply. There's a joy, a comfort, and for those noviceses who have seen kudim in other areas, there's a relief because you are literally waking up with the kohanim or saying for the ones that actually went to sleep. But the order of the safer is lit a day in the life of the basdash. It starts with the kohanim's night procedures. And it's a very very human narrative. It's not a complex halak where you have to go back and forth and say what is that pos again. Rather you're kind of living in the shoes of the kohanim. You're going through the daily service. You're going through the very very human parts of it like the kohhanim that fell asleep on guard and they were woken up in a very costic way where that they were very vulnerable to that. There were there's potential for mistakes. There were human mistakes were made and the kohanim who went through the lotteryies to get through to be eligible to the avod and just going through that seeing the daily narrative and the fact that these are kind of regular people there will be regular people when it comes to the ctor right everybody wanted the ctor was only you could only get it once because everybody wanted to be rich this was a predisposition to school for ashirus so the safer starts with the day in the life of bas mdash it goes through the carbon tid then it goes through what I'll call the situational corbanos in the second half where you know what did I do pes what happened on shvuas now we're all going to dab and mouse on those days kazal it's very clear that kazal wanted us comfortable with carvanos because we just all the laning is from corbanos and all shona estra is from corbanos here you can simply take the safer to shul and open it and at the right part it's like oh that's how it went that's how the practical narrative continued and that's what was accomplished each day so it really goes through first the daily routine and then I'll call it the the seasonal the situational routine and there's a major section on a hakipurim which is a a whole topic unto itself and that also will give people renewed appreciation or a first time appreciation. Exactly. That's that's where we're spending the a major share of yum kipper at the point where we're very vulnerable to getting tired. And if one is just reading that section of the yam kipper makur kind of by wrote well these are just kind of ceremonies rituals. It's much more difficult when you see avo hasn't happened and this is why and this is how atonement and achieved. It makes that part of yam kipper come to life and it makes it a very meaningful poignant part of most where it may not have necessarily been that way otherwise. It sounds like this safer should almost be a prerequisite for anyone who's going to be learning any sug. I I have to tell you on that note every era of Pesak I go over it with my family that there are 18 sim on the carbon pes and that's exactly besides the metaphysical benefits of that being off we offer the carbon pes but just to get an idea I mean pes is just an example of one yontiff but it centers around the carbon every y centers around the carbon makuma centers around the carbon so so many so much of our life really still centers around corbanos it's going to be part of our lives anyway so opening the safer in advance just going through all of part safer vikra and laning and even for kipper especially for me I found that knowing the structure of the basin mdash reading the seder avod in detail in in avoda sacanos when you come to that section of the davining where we're reading through the very concise and poetic description of the avoda you get a better appreciation again of for the the poetry and for what's happening behind those words, you know, as you play it through in your mind. This really gives you that background to help bring that part of Davin, make it more real and bring it to life. Now, Rabiov, in all the time and effort that you've devoted to the Bamedash and Avoid Sakaronus, what is perhaps the most surprising component of the Avoida or the structure of the Bamedish that you discovered that maybe people don't know? Well, interesting. Um I found when I was researching the the topic in general is that um we know for example in so the is when you're outside Israel we face Israel when we den init you face inim the base of migdash in the base of migdash when you dav in and as we discussed they d in the b mikdash they face the keshakadashim so the mishnabura writes that this is not just an exercise in map skills This is a mental exercise where he says you have to imagine yourself doing in the base of mikdash in the kod shakadashim. So how could you do that if you don't know what the bas mikdash looks like? I'll just jump in on that. Rwab says something on that subject was incredible. Rwab wrote a safer on msiach. Um basically in the safer ones para's bow he talks about the fact that really encouraged him to do that. In the beginning of that safer he speaks about the weekend that he spent with the and it was paras and somehow the question was posed to the say we're reading about the manus tells us the man tasted like whatever you wanted it to taste like and the question was posed to the let's say you didn't want it to taste like anything you had no particular intention in mind. So the answered, "Oh, I'm afraid to tell you that you've just forfeited the beauty of the month. If you didn't have anything in mind, then it wouldn't taste like anything." Then he added something astounding to me. He said, "That's the way it's going to be in the messianic era. If somebody does not appre doesn't get themselves to appreciate what's going to go on Yamosa Mashiach, they're going to live through Yamosa Mashiach the greatest blessing ever to happen to mankind and they're not going to appreciate it just like a tasteless mud. So to me just going through the aodas in the carbanos and going through what will happen it's it's scary. The basically said that we will not appreciate it until we learn to appreciate it and this is one of the most incredible tools to do so. Iran is famously known as promoting the lim of kachchim and this safer in particular as as mentioned in the introduction the reviewed every word he measured every word of this particular safer. So we know that put a tremendous amount of emphasis on learning these topics and both of you uh kind of epitomize that. So thank you. Why do both of you believe that many people are either intimidated or disinterested in learning these topics? I'll start with Yov. Well, again, as Rabdani pointed out, when people come to Akajum Suga, uh they get scared off because it's unfamiliar and uh they don't really have the background that they might have in other uh areas and so they get nervous about it. But um again like especially with a safer like this where it's something that can be explained clearly and easily and it's not only that but we the writes and is a safer Torah or he says that we really have to become familiar with the structure of the B mikdash and the seder of uh of the corbanos because he says you know when the garra ends a with teu the tishbar kush ribios He says don't misunderstand that to mean that when Msiah comes ali will just simply come and teach everybody amdash aod says no we have to do all that pre-learning with the tools that we have right now because uh is not going to come teach us things that we could have learned on our own and so we have to go through learn the become familiar with them and again with a safer like this and the work that art school has done to make these things accessible. Uh that becomes much easier now than it ever was before. Danny, what's your feeling on that? Building on Rubio Rubio's point, I agree that we're sort of introduced to it in what I'll call a side sideways when it comes up, it sort of interferes lava with the main topic. And that's where if uh if you just learn the foundation, the building blocks first, it becomes much more comfortable. And I just remember um a story u I went to camp monk way back in the day when Gdalia Lauitz was a sweet little camper and at that time Rib Shiman ID was in charge of teaching teenagers and the summer's topic was Hagalis Kalin and you know he brought us all into the room the first night and you know how do you get some 15year-olds interested in Hagalis Kalum one of the most important things he said to us at the start of that year was even if you don't master the topic, there's light years of difference between when somebody informed asks a question and when somebody uninformed asks a question. So, at the very least when you build up your repertoire, when you build up your level of knowledge, you become comfortable and the questions that you you see are no questions go away. they become obvious to you and you become a more sophisticated person in that area and then even the questions that you ask like spur on much better dialogue. So again using the safer where you don't have to be proficient but there's no comparison to when somebody informed builds on their knowledge of kachim and somebody who is uninformed ask so parenthetically I've p and from that year when I was 15 I've posed the wealth of shadows already forgetting forgetting about anything else but the fact that we we sort of it inter we don't take it on as a primary topic it's not as user friendly as um is one reason but the other and I sort of quote from my day job I do training for utility. One of the principles of adult learning if you will is relevance. So when you do train adults in the corporate world you have to establish relevance to get their attention. I think when people realize that carbonos and kudim are as relevant as ever tell us this time and time again we have the opportunity to offer a corbanola we have through learning its Torah to offer a katas to offer an asham so the fact that that opportunity is available to us I think garat batsia talks about the fact that kadim is one of the sedar in mishayas that are no galomi that are relevant, they're practical today. So the fact that when we open pilas carbonos and we go through those we receive the metaphysical powers of carbonos the spiritual electricity is something that can't be emphasized enough and perhaps we don't do it because when we learn it in school you know maybe people are too young to appreciate that but basically we know about all the brahas available from gdom all the kaila corbanos are alive and well and are a spiritual tool that's powerful in that same tool chest. So that message isn't as doesn't get out there as much as maybe I'll say and it should be and that way people would appreciate more that I have a problem with the relationship the relationship is with the kadesh well I can learn right Morai in the time of Esther when the times were at their worst what was he was in corbanas he was offering the carbon minir tools are alive and well and powerful and they uh the benefits are available to us all but I don't think that is emphasized enough. Yo, what's your feeling on that? Um I think that uh everything that Danny is saying is is correct. I've had the same experience. Uh but again it comes um from a place of I want to say at least for myself for ignorance that you know it looks scary on the outside but when you approach it um the topics are accessible and these things are concepts which people can understand I mean again like when I when I first learned it's math it's architecture nothing um esoteric it's just start with the basics and then build on top of that to the seder a voda and then and then you find yourself you're you're into the uh the Indian and it starts to become much more well you've done a a yman's job helping to open the door make it accessible through illustrations there's nothing better than a picture which is worth a thousand words to explain what something looks like or looked like in this case in depicting the bas and the sakabonus and the kum of the basd what was one area that was particularly daunting or arduous in depicting Uh the one thing that's Rabbi Usher um Ysef Asher Weiss and I um spent a lot of time on with this safer is that the the Mahabra goes through the seder hata how the lamps of the nora were lit which ones were skipped you know what I'm talking about very complicated very complex and he usher um reveed to boil it down into one easy diagram that captured all the you know the whole sugate in on on one page. So, that was a task that we spent many hours working out the back and forth and how we're going to present it. I think I think we did a pretty good job of it. I can jump into that. I covered that two weeks ago and did a masterful job because it went smoothly in here. So, that was that was a whole sug. Well, thanks to both of you for really you through your share, you through your diagrams, through your ongoing conversation with Clai being available to answer questions and really through this encouragement in this conversation that people should feel comfortable opening up this safe rabbon as uh kind of an opening to this topic to be comfortable, not to be scared, not to be intimidated. they'll find that uh as we were talking before that they'll find that they'll have a growing interest in the topic the more they learn about it. Any final word from either of you as we close this conversation? I'd just like to thank Rabbi Elon because besides his diagrams and the pictures, he's also wonderfully responsive. Questions come up in sheer all the time and uh by the next week I have answers through no fault of my own. So, thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate the the kind words Danny. Um again the these are topics which are relevant. They're going to be very relevant. Mashem very soon and uh the the toosto he writes in the beginning his introduction to measidos is that we're learning makasidos as the prerequisite to bias shishi. Um we need we need to know the basics of what a bas mikdash looks like. She says that's why we're learning midos. we learn about Kajim in general so that when it comes time to build the third and final base of mikdash, we're going to be ready. Well, thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah, go ahead. Right. We know one of the three questions we get asked right after that peace Yeshua. So, did you long for the bamed? So, I I don't know if how long I could emotionally my tishabs aren't necessarily as emotionally gut-wrenching as I like, but I feel very very comfortable answering that question by day. uh the regular seder and well thank you to both of you for traveling from Baltimore I should mention out to art scroll here in Raei New Jersey to discuss the safer and when Mashiach comes I know at least two people I'll be able to go to two friends if I have any questions with David so thank you to both of you for what you're doing in spreading awareness so to speak of this important topic and may it stand as to both of you. Amen. Thank you for having us. Thank you. [Music]