Inside ArtScroll Episode 16: Why Did a Lawyer Write an Index on Shas?

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome back to inside art scroll where the books you read and the people who write them come to life. Today we have the privilege of being joined by Daniel Rder, the author of Hamak on Talmud Bavi and Shisha Sidri Mishna. Thank you Mr. Rder for being with us and I'm excited to talk to you about your magnum opus a volume that you've put tremendous effort into and the fourthcoming expanded volume which we'll talk about. So tell us how you got into putting together and why it took such an interest in your life. Well, I've been going to yeshiva since I guess I'm six years old and ultimately I began to learn Gamorra and Typhus and Rashi and it always bothered me why there was no index to the Gumra but I didn't paid much attention. Then as I became a lawyer, I realized that every academic book, every educational book has an index. Uh like I always tell my clients, I don't have to know where everything is, but I have to know how to find it. And I'm saying to myself, why didn't why hasn't there been a m until now? So I did some history. I did some research actually and I recognized that the reason there was no in effect reference guide or indexed reference guide on shas was because shas evolved it evolved to a point where there was really no daf as we know it and om as we know it until many many many years after the gmorra was so to speak discovered or actually written. So you have raen kadesh and you have the savoyam then you have the the the goam and there was no daf as a matter of fact if you look at rashi he'll sayama perishian rashi never says daf what later on the editors said what daff it was because there was no such thing as a duff in rashi's times so then you had the sino uh uncle and nephew they're the ones who created in effect what we call it tersaf But they never really got the shots. They did a half a second. It didn't work out. Then a fellow by the name of Daniel Bombberg. He is the one he was not religious. He's not Jewish. He was a Christian. But he had he wasn't from Antworp although he did his publishing in in Venice. He had an assistant uh Jewish fellow his name I think was Rabbi Levy. I don't remember his name. Who introduced him to Hebrew Font and he decided to print all of Shass. and he continued the touraf of the sansenos. This is it from Italy. He moved it over to Venice where they were permitted to publish because Venice was basically an independent country, independent city state and he published it known as the bombber shas at that point. Sorry. And this followed by a few years the printing press by uh uh I forgot who forgive me um by uh it'll come to me. Okay. So, so the printing g was it Gutenberg? Yeah, Gutenberg. He invented the printing press and the first Hebrew safh that was printed some say it was the but at the end of the day is it was Bombberg who printed the shas and he printed I think it was 16 volumes of all of the shas what's interesting is the author of the mass shas was Yeshua Boaz and he printed the mis shas he wrote it within 15 to 20 years after bombber printed it. It wasn't a coincidence because now for the first time you had the daffod because sh see daf so and so d so and so of course he was a genius because there's no computers in those times. So at the end of the day they invented the they they created the the duff al's uh setup. Then at that point shas learned by very relatively few people an elite yes etc. And if they wanted to find something they go to the rebi rebi and rebim were for five 10 15 t meet and therefore there was no reason that you had to have it because you ask ravkanayski he doesn't need an index he knows it by heart because he's ravanki okay so there were many many gdm who existed as rebay and the tamid would go ask the rebi because they had a personal relationship with the rebi fast forward to the uh dafi all comes of me shapiro He says, "We want all of Israel to learn dafi." Why? So that if two Jews are on a railroad and they're going from minks to pinks, they can talk about the same do they both learn. That's a classic thing of me. Okay. Then dum all of a sudden became something which a lot of people were learning. Not just people in the yeshiva balosa but there was really no way for them to be able to find out where a particular sugu was because there was no window. So they struggled with it. Then along came arts scroll arts revolutionized the dafomi. They took Shapiro's idea and they revolutionized it both in English and in Hebrew. All of a sudden, all of a sudden, everybody was learning Gamarra. Now, people were willing to criticize. As a matter of fact, they understand that the Israeli guy were not willing to give that scrum so quickly because they said, "Listen, you want everybody to learn in English." But, and they finally were convinced that it's the right thing to do at the right time. Um I then realized that dafomi now was being learned by many many many many people by thousands tens of thousands of people another phenomena all of a sudden the yeshiva is like the mir there weren't 50 kids in a class there were 500 people right you had thousands of people in the yeshiva now one rebi was teaching hundreds of children so there was a little less personal relationship between the talmet and the wanted to know where something because you know he didn't just walk up to the rabbi he had to go to mashia he had to go whatever so at the end of the day you had a confluence of automation you now had printed gumaras you have the dafomi you have the art scroll but you're missing a in effect an index what I call indexed reference guide to the gumar so at that point I said to myself why should this safer not be indexed in effect. So I met with various rashisha I said you know something I want you to go to your bakim and ask them for subjects it could be elements it could be taharis medus or or or avat etc from the easiest to the hardest I want to have all the you can think of because in order to make you have to have everything that a person want to think of. It's like if you're looking up a word in the dictionary, if it's not there, you throw in a dictionary. What goes to the dictionary? If I can't find out if I want to spell scissors, the word scissor is not there, you throw in the dictionary. So, I wanted to make sure that you would have a uh a comprehensive Now, what year I'm sorry, what what year was this that you came to this revelation that you wanted to launch this project? Seven years before 2001. What would that be? 199 1994. Um, why am I thinking 1997? 1994 was it? No, it was earlier than that. It was earlier than that. Uh, in the in the early 90s. Early 90s, right? Because it took me seven years to put it together. Um, three years the Hebrew, four years the English. So, about seven years. Okay. So, now if we're talking about if we're talking about the '9s, we published in 2001. It came out 2001. It's about seven years before with the advent of computers and the internet some people the natural question would be you know Daniel it's a great project but why why do we need it in a volume excellent excellent I'll find what I need excellent so let me use a the bar line as an example bar line okay a small example bar is a search engine you put in rubber there are 4500 rubbers in chass that is not necessary for most people to know but they want to know yagama they want to know the important parts so that's hold that for a moment then you have an interesting which is a story about various amoy I think raan whoever and they talk about a suda of it's called um Yeshua it's a yeshua what's Yeshua is some say it's the suda of a brisma. Some say it's a sudo of a pigen because the word Yeshua could be pin and rash calls it pin pin but that's a very non no one knows what no one calls that isen so if you want to look where's the macar of pigeon ben in that's the makar the makar that you have a suda of a pigeon of ben the f but the word pigeon is not mentioned so if you go through a search engine let's say bilan look on the pigeon of ben There are other messages of pigeon but no one over there will see this. Why? Because the word pigeon is not found there in it's not a search engine. It's written for it's written for people who are and people have an appreciation of that. So if you look over here in the pigeon of Ben it'll site you to the gur of perken even though it's not that particular because it's not a search engine. It's not a search engine. So to answer your question, if you go on a computer and you look for Peter Ben, you're not going to find it. All right. So that's just one that's just one example. So the an so so basically it took me it took me seven years to put it together and I uh had to get the subjects. So I went to various rabbon and I didn't tell them why. I was afraid that someone else would do it before me. Very famous story of the BV and the the BV and the Rama. They were working on the same on the same idea. One was in Kraka, one was invat and they didn't know. I don't think they knew what they were doing. There was no internet then. And the masala was was that although the came out first the maz was was that he was fork the was for the so they mashed them together. But you have a very sad story. I'm not going to mention some names of a very well-known person who's putting the ramban together. He lived in America, very very well-known person and he worked on it for years and years and years and then six months before he was finished. Someone else came out with the Ramban and they say he died because of that. He was he was heartbroken. So I was afraid that if the idea would come out that put all of this effort and work into it that somebody else would do before me. So it's it is what it is. Now, did you compile the listings manually or were you able to use a computer in order to assist you in coming up with the D? The listings were manual. In other words, I had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Then, but once I had let's say Shabas, then I went through Malis and I went through. So, so these this was all man-made. This is all created. This is all created. So what I did was I took an Indian of Shabas and then I went surro and then we had malocus dealing with farming, maloc is dealing with eating etc etc etc and then stories about shabas etc. So this of course was not done by computer because this concept the the the composition of it was something which never had been done. As a matter of fact when I went to the copyright office in Washington to get a copyright on this um they said Mr. better. We don't give copyrights for an index because an index, you've got a copyright for something you're creating. You can take a telephone book and scramble it different way. Yes. Alphabetical, not alphabetical, first name, first name, last name first, first name, last. You can't copyright that. It's got to be something new. So, I brought him the I brought him the art scroll. I said, "Listen, you're going to see that what I've done is" and I gave the example of Yeshua and Ben. He says, "Oh, you're right. That word is not in there. So, it's really not an index. It's a reference. I said, "Right. It's a reference guide." So, as a matter of fact, it's called an indexed reference guide. And that's how we got the So, they said, "You know what? We're going to give you a copyright for organization, for composition, for the way you set it up because we didn't literally translate. It's not a word search engine. It's not a search engine. As a matter of fact, all of the search engines, you can't get a copyright in that because why? Because you're not create anything new. All you're doing is you're organizing all this. you you can't copyright the telephone book because you're not creating anything new there. You're taking names and phone numbers, you're putting it and lists are not copyrightable. So that's why these aren't. And this is now after you put out your first version, did you have people coming over to you and say, "Mr. Ready, you know, you left out Kim Leab." Ah, beautiful. Beautiful. So let me back up to that. I had the Hebrew first and I was literally dying to get it out, but I was afraid if I got it out in Hebrew, then somebody would just go to Google and they would scramble, you know, you can translate Google and then you'd have a a half-baked English one which I didn't want. So I held on to it. I said no. And also I was afraid somebody would copy the idea in English. So for seven years it was like a I'm not a novi but for for prophet doesn't disclose like like he was punished he was supposed to say he didn't so I knew that I had a tough over here to get out with it but I was afraid to do it so prematurely said after seven years now another interesting thing and I'll get to your answer usually we have magnificent husk in here from and from andardish and litish and and and and every kind of board we have we have as now typically when you write a safer you go to your ro and your sh to your rebby and you finish the safer in a certain month after it's finished you show to them and they're very happy and they are uh they give you a scrum so the date of that scrum is typically very very close to the date of publication all these scrums are seven years before it was published Why? Because my wife at my wife Maji said to me, you know, you're going to do all this over here and you know work on it and then you're not getting any scum say don't do it that way. So I got the scumist first and I just showed them gallies of it. So once I got the scumist then I went ahead and took me another five six years to put it together. So your question was what was the reaction when it was printed in the it says if there are any comments or errors that you find please email me. So I'm up thereem I got about 500 emails none of them were criticism none and they were all complimentary and I would receive one or two from you can see really mostly from who said you know I would have done a little differently you wrote bishi you know etc got to refine also you should cross reference like know you should mention was so I I realized that I had to I had to refine it but it was all complimentary. I got one or two very nasty ones from Gam from Gam who said ah the Bible the Talmet and so but of course I I I but I received only very very nice ones. Now there's one thing which is very very important. we deal with something called Gentiles and Akum and no, we have to make sure that the Shom is. So I realized that any time the Gmorra mentioned something that may have been considered to be derogatory or considered to be not politically correct, I changed it to idoltor. Well, who can get insulted? Nobody's an idoltor today. But to say a gentile, so you could say a gentile, let's say the English one is not uh able to testify. Nobody gets insulted about that. So these are things that I had to refine. So the reaction is very very positive. Now we're now coming with a kadash. What you see over here now is something which was completely upgraded. What does that mean? Originally the mak was a macro safer macro one volume over here. We had all the popular members, the popular uh uh the popular in Yonim that everybody knew about and where where's the place but I said to myself it's not satisfactory. I want to have a micro meaning I want it to be a kind of where even the smallest thing should be there as well. For example, you learn and then 30 later on you say oh we just had this thing with a buy over here such and such he was in in he was what's it about? I put that in also. So you're going to find now that is going to come out very soon and I'm so proud that agreed to act as the publishing distributor and of course I was I consulted with many of their I mean they have a they have a a group of like bar none and we consult with them and we we we changed it we fixed it etc etc etc so the kadash is really it's what I would call upgraded forgive the Russian on steroids it's like it's it's really it's It's we've add about 40% more um and yet 40% more which are subjects and makus naturally and yet we still did in one volume. Why the genius of of Shia brander Shia brander he said let's not do it in two volume in two columns we'll make three columns but we'll make it such a way that isn't even smaller so you fit more on a page more on a page but it shouldn't feel so tiny and it's not squeezed it's almost like we said the arch over there it fit into a place which didn't have a size for it aless over here also between Shia and Ben Gastner who is a graphic a from Israel geniuses all right And it's like, you know, you take a dictionary, you read it, then you put it away. It draws you in. Oh, let me see the next one. The next one, next one. Cuz the font and the spacing, the graphics are magnificent and it makes you want to even more look more and more and more. Or they say, why? You just look something up. Want to look for more more. Now, I have to ask I have to interrupt for a second. Anyone anyone who's watching this, yeah, the thousands and thousands of people all over the world are hearing your passion, your excitement. This is clearly your life's work. You live it. You breathe it. I could tell just hearing you recount the history of putting it together. By profession though, you're an attorney, a successful attorney. How does an attorney come to take on such a project and really make it your life's passion? Well, I did a lot less lawyering, but what what I meant was really who was your inspiration in your younger years in terms of your Tamuric background, your people who influenced you to love Gomorrah learning the way you do that you would put in such effort and do so much less lawyering. I will tell you I will tell you I'll tell you the he was a son of when I lived in from Shabas. Nor he's no longer alive. He was my son. He was my um they were big influences in my life. Rafala my risha. You learned in mim by rabb. Yes I did. Yes I did. So you grew you grew up in bar park. I know I grew up in the west side but uh I commuted commuted and I went to college at night you know kind of and how long did you learn by pala? I learn pala from the moment he opened up the yeshiva there in then barak. As a matter of fact it was my grandfather who bought him his building. So my inspiration were my father who I dedicated the English my dedicated and my grandparents my grandfather Rosenblat. So they were the great great influences in my life where they taught me which sometimes people saying don't it's not politically correct anymore to me it's politically correct I'm a term person all right but because you know uh look at they weren't embarrassed to say what they did for a living right so I recognize there's a wonderful thing in you know in having people who sit all day because and I say to my friends listen in princ they do R&D research and development they got a lot of money for that so the guys learn the cull they're doing R&D They're doing research development of Thomas. There's nothing wrong with that. But everybody's got a different tough in life. Like I think Keski said when they asked about women and men of the DOM, he said listen men have a certain tough get in life and women have a certain tough in life. So it doesn't mean that they're discriminated against but that's their job in life. So I feel the same way. So as a uh as a a lawyer having a love of books, having a love of letters, I learned that probably from my from my father. Um I uh just made it my life's as you say my life's passion to uh to get this out. But without my wife helping me it wouldn't have been done because you have to have a wife and yeah who who cooperates and wants because my wife is a and my children who encouraged me and they were happy for me and they checked it and they corrected etc etc. So at the end of the day uh I have a lot of a cursor to have those people who inspired me. Now what type of law have you practiced? Immigration and real estate. Immigration and real estate. That's the connection. People come from the from the different country. They usually have money to afford me. They make investments. I help them with the investments. That's what it is. Got it. And you live in Riverdale now. I live in Riverdale. Yes. How long have you lived there? Well, I grew up in the west side. We lived in Brooklyn for a couple years when I went to Yeshiva when I was when I was married. Then I moved to Florida for 20 years. Oh, wow. Lived in Florida, Miami Beach. And then we came back here because we want our children to have we came here for our children's. My parents said to me, "Danny, why are you coming to Florida? Is something wrong?" Said, 'N no, because I want my children to have here and I don't want to be in Miami like some of my friends or my older friends with a husband and wife like they have nobody around the table on Chabas and all the kids in Yoshiva in New York. I want to be with my kids. So, we all decided to come to New York. My wife and I came to New York. My children were not too happy. I said, "You'll be happy. Don't worry." Because Miami is a nice place. And I said, "At every one of your weddings, you're gonna say to me before the daddy, thank you for moving us." Everyone did. Now having had a kasa to the matist to Raf Turnau to Raf parlor any particular story stand out an experience or an interaction that you had with them that you could share with our viewers? Um uh you know you asked me on the spot I've got a fantastic experience I had with Kaneki when uh when I let me tell you this it's something outstanding. R Kaneki as you know usually wears a white shirt for 120 years plus. See, he's such a wonderful man. And he he stands by sitting on a stand in his in his house and there always people around him. Have you ever been there? You see there's always people around him. So I went in there to present in the safer because he gave me a husk on the safer. I went in to presenting the safer had in my hand. He looked at me didn't recognize me because this is like seven years after he gave me. He's probably giving huskas to thousands of whatever they call it. I walked in there and I don't wear a beard. I don't wear stramo. So imagine the kids around him say, "Ah, this is gonna be entertaining. American guy comes. Let's see what's gonna happen over here." But I speak Yiddish. So I spoke to him. I had the safer the the the big volume I had which I showed you, but you want to have this because it fits better into the little here. I said, "I'd like to present you." He looks at it and he takes it from me. He leans back on his seat and he's flipping through the pages. He's flipping flip. He's looking for something. His bur his his eyebrows are bur for forward looking for something. He sees it. As he's going through, I said, "Oh my gosh, if he can't find what he's looking for, he'll take back the beer embarrassing." A big smile. He stands up. He gives me a hug and he gives me all sorts of braas that it should be. I said with the rasha can zogen I'll say in English with the rashiva tell me please what he was looking for. He said yeah. He says I'm in the middle of a dun in the middle of a trial. I said is in the middle of a trial. Rashiva is a a litigant a a a bald he says let me tell you. He says there's a big big denter and the bez made a mistake and they awarded a lot of money to one of the parties and the party who lost and paid the money is suing the best because of the mistake. So they asked me what is now in that's called and it depends if it depends if it was a matter of of discretion if they forgot a Mishna it makes a big difference but he says this would be called pitsuim damages and damages in Hebrew modern Hebrew says I wanted to see the m had under the gummoral lushian or under pituim and I found under pituim also he says he said to me I see you put it in the Hebrew also I said yes he says good he said your has to speak to everybody not just to the people who know it on the people look underd that's what I was looking for so I said wow this is something and then the PS is I went to the same day to be sees me says I said wow he saw me seven or eight years before that he remembered me could you imagine I said that blew my mind. Blew my mind. So that was Yeah. I'll tell you a story of now. It's a little embarrassing. I'll tell to you. I had a we learned in we learned in East Six Street. Remember that we East four street was the main place and six was a public school we rented. Okay. So we had an affair two things. Two things he was because he was my first rebby when I came to he said yes. He asked Aasha one. He asked me a yes. my by myasha and we didn't know the answer. He says, "Okay, shy." He says, "I want to know who is the owner of this sh over here." So it was like a crack. But then the first time I saw him, he said he to the whole class. He says in the subway in the you go subway in the summer. You see women without hands without feet. Not look. I know what he's talking about. So I come home. I said I said daddy I said you know you're not going to believe it my rebi said that we go in the subway you see women without hands without feet now look at them says no that's what it means hand means that the feet uncovered and the hands uncovered so that's expression so I remember this stayed with me for all my life with hand fees and the last thing was we once asked if you're in a store you're not sure if it's kosher this was before u was so popular remember you see goldenberg's peanut juice if it said pure vegetable oil must be kosher so you remember you maybe not that old but nowadays there was no wasn't as popular. So he said to me Rebi, "If you're not sure if it's kosh or not, not eat it." So he told me something which I've repeated dozens and dozens of times to my friends who are Jewish, my friends who are not Jewish. He says, "You know what? If you're not sure if something is poison or not, would you eat it?" I said, "No." He says, "Consider it the same way. If you're not sure if it's kosher, not sure if it's poison." So when I walk into a store and I see something and I'm not sure it's kosher, right away it rings the bell. I said my rebi said you got to remember if it would be poison not would you eat it? No. So when people say to me Mr. Rder how can you go and eat something which is not maybe it is kosher but it's not kosher. I said I'm afraid it's like poison to me and I wouldn't touch it. So that's kind of the influence that I had stayed with you of the German word called kinduba. My mother's born in in ger in Germany. My father's born in Vienna. So we're kind of galatiana although we're from stock. My mother's from the kasidum. My father's in the capichid. So we're kapasid family. So we're from that stock and um something called keshubes means it's something you taught at home. You know when somebody comes to your house as a guest and before they sit down they'll say may I sit down or let's say if somebody is like sleeping with you in the house for two or three days before it goes to the refrigerator say may I go to refrigerator take something. That's what you're taught in the home. You're taught that before you go to somebody you bring them a little gift. It's you don't have to, but that's the way you're brought up. So the the the the the love of learning that I have is not because I'm so smart about it, but I was I was I was trained that way that that there such they don't call them razon they call them because these were geniuses. They were so smart. And the amuna is if these genius people if they're so and so and they believe in everything and they're smart people then what am I smarter than them? If they spent if they gave up their whole life for this I can give up part of my life for this also because it's got to be true. Well you have clearly given a tremendous portion of your life timewise monetarily otherwise into this project. Thank you. You've thus enhanced the limudar for untold numbers of people. Thank you. So on behalf of Matu, we thank you for your contribution, an eternal contribution. It's an honor for art scroll to be able to publish your latest version, the expanded version. It's called Kadashadash. And you should be for many more years to be able to enhance other people's learning and to serve as a role model of the and the respect for as you have. Thank you very much. I appreciate the honor of being able to be interviewed. Thank you for joining us. Heat. [Music]