Ignorance is Not Innocence

foreign here with Rachel tuckman and Rachel herkman thank you so much amudim for inviting us once again to participate in this symposium what we have decided to talk about for today is a sensitive but very important topic we think very important topic the state of how and when we talk about and the content of how we talk about sexuality in Orthodox communities and this really sort of spans the life cycle so when we're talking about sex ed with regard to early childhood education you know age-appropriate early childhood education throughout the childhood and teen years young adulthood people in relationships in marriages as you go through different phases and something that we see as therapists in our confidential spaces is the way that people were educated and internalized and processed the information about their bodies about their sexuality about the thoughts and the feelings and the phenomena and the relational pieces of it and how that plays out in terms of mental health in terms of adulthood in terms of attachment and how there have been I think tremendous steps of progress in our communities over the last number of years as far as clinicians willing to train and address and talk about the subject as far as literature lectures resources um you know and and we've been sort of on the front lines of this for a while and just kind of kind of naming what's going on so I'm I'll introduce myself I'm Ellie Chevrolet I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in private practice I also write I have a Blog and I have a book and um and actually a whole course on the topic of sex education we can talk a little bit more about that later but I want to let Rachel and Rachel introduce yourselves too Rachel which one I used to be the boss of everything let's go in alphabetical order Rachel herkman hi I'm Rachel herkman I'm a licensed clinical social worker I think we also realized last year that we were each different right because Rachel's an lmhc and you're an lmft so we got some diversity here a very very diverse yeah yes I have a practice uh Private Practice in person on the upper west side of Manhattan specializing in relationships sexual health and Trauma I'm also really passionate about utilizing social media to help bring awareness to mental health and relationship education especially the Jewish community and I'm The Clinical Director of the layers project magazine which is an online Jewish magazine for women and we recently put out a book called layers that profile different Jewish women in Israel authors she relationships and I'm really passionate to be here because I find that as the years go on we are at a place now where events that maybe 10 years ago would have been unheard of or unheard of in certain circles are now pretty commonplace I think Zoom has definitely helped that process I find that clinically we're seeing a lot of shifts in what younger people are asking for in terms of relationship education but I'm also seeing it in terms of people who are not necessarily considered young but are reflecting back and seeing certain things and saying maybe it didn't have to be that way maybe there were certain hurdles that I didn't have to go through maybe certain things didn't have to be such a rite of passage and it's just great that we're having this conversation and having it in an informal way somewhat and hopefully we can kind of give more language to this besides possible solutions but even just to give more words because so much of this issue is about lack of words so I'm really happy to be here today thank you Rachel tuckman okay I'm Rachel tuckman licensed mental health counselor I have a private practice in the five towns I also have a social media presence where much like my colleagues here Alisha and Rachel I am passionate about creating conversations bringing awareness breaking stigma talking about things that unless you're in a therapy office you may not have the opportunity to learn about or hear about and I understand that mental health treatment and therapy in general is not always accessible to people and not even some people don't necessarily need therapy at certain points in their life but I still want that information to be accessible accessible for for people to be learning and to be introspecting and growing um challenging certain ideas that we hold certainly as a community and so that's why I show up there and yes I'm excited to be doing this again and to be kind of opening that floor to conversations that I know people want to have but sometimes don't know how to go about starting them or feel like maybe no one is talking about this or they're not allowed and and I like that we kind of give permission here for like yes we're noticing this yes this is on our minds yes this is important to talk about um and that's usually feedback I get when we have this kind of thing or when I talk about something on social media is like wow thank you so much for saying that like I I was wondering if anyone was thinking about that or talking about that or I feel so much better hearing that or it healed a part of me hearing that and so I'm grateful for these conversations and especially with with the two of you thank you so I guess we'll kick it off with a little bit more introduction on the topics just piggybacking off what you started to say just now Rachel I was doing an interview um maybe a month or two ago and someone asked me a member of the from Community asked me if I get a lot of flap for trying to promote you know better clearer more accurate sex education in in the public sphere um you know because we do I think many of us share that ambivalence you know on the one hand protecting the sacredness of you know the subject but also on the other hand wanting it to stay in fact sacred rather than traumatic um you know and and therapists do see you know a side of it that I think a lot of other people are not privy to um and what I told her is that you know once in a while yeah you know once in a while somebody will come out and be like well do you really think that's appropriate or maybe that's not modest to you know to write about or to talk about but for every message that I receive like that I would say we I I'll say I'll speak in first person but I have a feeling you guys are gonna Echo the same sentiment um I get like probably 99 saying thank you so much for talking about this I thought I was the only one I thought I was crazy thank you for telling my story how did you know my story when I never even told it to anyone um you know that's that's kind of how I got started with it I I ended up with this specialty accidentally um and then kind of went back to train you know after I realized that you know all these you know particular cases you know having to do with sexual issues were coming my way I'm like okay I guess I better get the formal training to do it well um and um and and then you know once once I saw this coming it was like people were so relieved to have a place where they could talk about it where it was confidential where it was culturally sensitive where there was a background and a similarity and a familiarity of you know values of culture of understanding halafah and the role that that plays um you know in in what's going on for a lot of people again individually and in relationships as children and teens and then as you go through the adults part of the life cycle because it doesn't it's not like a one phase you know it's sexuality is part of our Humanity um I remember a number of years ago maybe like five maybe seven eight years ago already by now I was doing a workshop in Brooklyn for a group of college teachers they were they were older than I was and they were very from hasidish and yes teachers and I gave him so much credit for coming out to this um and something I had said at the workshop was you know for many of you you're going to be the first and possibly the only place that your students are going to learn about sexuality and intimacy um and so you know it's it's not going to be enough just to teach them the Taurus like they're this this could be like the one chance that they have to learn about how to have a you know a pleasurable loving healthy passionate Mutual you know healthy relationship and um they're like nodding and one of them turns to me and she said you know Alicia we we don't disagree with what you're saying but I I know for myself I don't feel confident I don't feel like I have the knowledge to share it you know confidently like we also were only educated by one college teacher each and don't necessarily you know have all the best information to give and then the other one started nodding and one of them turned to me and said would you write up a script for us you know something for us to be able to use and to share and I pause for a minute and like you know whatever like who am I to do this whatever I'm like but yeah I'll try you know I I will do that and I went home that night and I sat down on my computer and I typed like a 10-page Microsoft Word single space document of like here here's what youth college teachers can teach you know your students who are coming with likely a very small to non-existent you know sex education background and when I say that non-existent I'm not exaggerating there are people who learn about sex from their college teacher for the first time um and not one or two it's a phenomenon you know not everyone there are people who know before but there are a lot who really this is there for first brush and I gave it to them and then over the years I was offering it just for free to any college teachers who wanted and then at a certain point there I got to my request for it I just automated I'm like anyone who wants this could just have it I didn't publish it on my blog because it is sensitive information and culturally sensitive you know for you know for an orthodox population but um once you know you're if you tell me you're an adult you know and you want it then you should have it um anyway that was sort of like my entree into you know sort of writing and Publishing that I started to blog about it on Netflix and the amount of feedback that I got and I know I'm not unique this way I know both of you probably have this as well of just like people are so hungry and curious and not in a voyeuristic um you know perverted kind of way but in a in a sincere and genuine authentic um holy way of just wanting to know like this is such a part of life such a part of relationships such a part of how we respond to our bodies ourselves our thoughts our feelings and I want to just know how to integrate this into mental health into spiritual Health into relationships and I'm doing a lot of talking to either of you want to kind of jump in for sure I mean there were so many things I wrote down because I was like okay when she's done I'm gonna say this or that so I think there's a few a few pieces that that come up here I think there's the when we're talking about education around and it's not just sex it's also about relationships because it's also how does sex fit into the context of a relationship and what I find to be a common Challenge and this is in all communities I see this is that kids are let's say given a certain message that there's a time and place that we will talk about or engage in sex right but we're not going to talk about it now and I totally understand that and then they get married after a very abbreviated learning period right if they're learning what and this is in all communities they're taking class and Kyle classes that we're talking about a very short amount of time to learn an entire new area of halacha they don't have time to get second opinions so sometimes the teacher is not the right fit but they don't really have time to or permission or permission and they already selected a partner and I I want to throw that out there as an issue because I think there's often this assumption that when people are starting to date they already know all about Taurus mishbacha and that's just not true and I actually have seen this that there are times where you know if you're planning to keep Taurus mishbacha and not touch your partner during Nida so you need to be marrying someone who hopefully you feel that hey we can communicate in non-touch ways and you're going to then sit on dates with people with a different mindset you're not just going to be looking at them as oh are they nice or oh or do all of our you know list lineup and all that which is a whole other discussion that we're not going to get into but if you know more about Taurus mishbach that's thought to impact the way you date so I look at this not just from the perspective of building healthy marriages and how are we educating but actually how is it impacting even people's perspective when they're sitting on dates and getting to know a potential partner the other issue I find here is that we have situations where people then get married and all of a sudden everyone's telling them you know your sex life is really important it's really important it's really important and they're like but why didn't anyone talk about it right before and now we're just supposed to make this thing work that we didn't really get a lot of information on and then there's a loneliness because as you mentioned for in many situations the college teacher or the husband teacher might be the first and last time this person is asking questions to or even talking about sex so this is where I think social media which there's a lot of pluses and minuses I do think that social media has kind of thrown this whole thing on its head because you have people who are seeking information and they're looking for it and we hope that they're finding accurate information they may not but I do think it's wonderful that in a Jewish Community there are more addresses for people to go literally and figuratively to start asking questions the fact that mentors everyone is saying like you know what we really need to be able to talk more about these topics and not just in a reactionary way that we're not just going to talk about sex in a when there's dysfunction or when there's detriment or danger or abuse right like we're actually let's talk about from Allah from that how would you how would you translate from uh like ideally ideal but it's also proactive correct like that's gonna wait till damage control so not only and not only pathologized way not only like well we're not going to talk about sex unless there's a problem and then there's a Hut there to deal with it right like that's the prophylactic piece of it it's like no there we could we could prevent a lot of the problems that arise with pre-education with better pre-educated higher quality pre-education 100 100 but I think you touched on some in common which is sometimes it's not that adults don't want to speak to people about it they just don't feel competent to and I want to put that out there because there's a lot of flack off it like any time I've spoken there's always someone who raises their head and goes well do you think like the schools should be doing and I would say Hey listen you know let's stop blaming the schools for everything and kids that's a job this is not their job also kids mature at different Paces so there are kids that are asking about where babies come from at age four their kids said it doesn't even occur to them to ask till they're they may never they may not ever ask so the idea that we're gonna like standardize when all children learn about this and put that on the school I just don't think is fair but I also think a lot of parents feel like I want to talk to them about it but I don't know how so there's also that it's not always an avoidance thing from a place of we want to keep this silent and shameful sometimes it's just also a place of not feeling competent or prepared yeah in my in my course I actually have a list of 10 different reasons why adults will hesitate to talk to Children about you know give to give them children and teens and even young adults about you know uh accurate healthy sex education and none of them are malicious you know none of them are with the intent to cause harm um but it's it's something that absolutely needs to be addressed sorry Rachel talkman you wanted to ask no I think also when we hear sex education I know for me at least I know people right away start thinking about like I have to talk to them about the act of sex and I always say there is so much more to sexuality than the act of the physical right like man and woman or whatever it is that sexual act it's about consent it's about boundaries it's about autonomy it's about communication there is so much more to it that it's not just about an act of sexuality or it's not just about body parts there's a whole emotional social mental piece that again I think that is so important and that's why we say sex education starts when they're young when they're little like you're not teaching them these things you're not teaching them when they're four you're teaching them about sharing you're teaching them about boundaries you're teaching them about body parts labeling things accurately and having correct information and having conversations that are sensitive in a safe and appropriate manner so when we say sex education I think like it sounds so scary for people but I guess also if we could like help people understand that there's so much more to it than just you know the birds and the bees right that it's it's a more nuanced and more a deeper and a more important conversation than just one area um I think that would also help you know people to understand and maybe to feel a little bit less afraid but again I don't think that people I think this is something that's often missing from the conversation is consent and boundaries and personal space and and autonomy and you're allowed to change your minds and talking about what feels good or what doesn't feel good and comfort and what's normal and what's not normal and what's normal for you versus what's normal for other people I just think that there's a lot of secrecy and a lot of um we don't talk about that or a lot of like I don't know how to talk about that and so I think that if we can kind of like open up the conversation to guys it's not just this there's so much more and you can start with these things that might feel more comfortable you know it's those micro lessons that are pretty simple it gets a little bit more complicated as you go on but I think that if we give people the tools and we show them um you know a lot of these conversations you might already know how to have you just didn't realize it was part of this education I think that could be also very empowering a hundred percent as you were talking and your list is fantastic everything that you were saying but there were two pieces that I found myself wanting to like add in there which is um which is masturbation self-touching and fantasy because I I can't even like I've lost counts over the years of how many people have had an experience of self-pleasuring of you know discovering that at a young age even a very young age Like Preschool age and we have parents who are asking like oh I've seen my child that they're you know touching themselves and and and this is like a very widespread normal phenomena on and and and also the the concept of fantasy like either you saw something or you heard something or your brain you know imagine something a dream a thought a fantasy and they don't know where to put it they don't know what to do with it and um so very often people have their developmental sexuality split off into this like secret shameful uncomfortable I don't really know what to do with that part of myself and then there's the part of them that like is walking the line that they're supposed to present based on their family their Community their schooling system that they went through and how they're supposed to present even you know when they get to the point of where they might be wanting to date and have a relationship or get married and um then let's say even when they're in a relationship or if they get married they have their sexuality sort of split off from the rest of them um and we see this with men in certain ways we see this with women in certain ways and then we also see the sorry to jump in but before I feel like there should be like we should raise our hands I feel like this happens even in the way people pursue help yeah I find that there are people who will pursue help and they're currently in therapy where they're let's say a couple that's in therapy and they haven't been able to have intercourse for two years and they haven't told the couple's therapists so they're sitting and talking about all these other issues in the relationship but they haven't actually talked about the fact that they haven't been able to have intercourse and they don't feel comfortable bringing it up the therapist maybe didn't even ask because they the couple said we're coming in just to talk about financial communication right right we're having communication right communication issues right and they weren't asked about their sex life they're not bringing it up on their own right so I find that I'm often in a place of having to educate why I think Sex Therapy as an adjunct is not only sometimes counterproductive I actually think that it reinforces that split of here it is your there's marriage and there's a parallel and there's a parallel because right they've been seeing a therapist or an individual therapist they've been seeing for years they're really comfortable with them but they don't feel like they could talk to them about sex right so I'm gonna go talk to another person outside about sex so that often can happen in a marriage they've been married for a certain amount of time there's a certain emotional closeness it feels too difficult to bring it up so they don't now that doesn't mean that I think it's certain situations and I always encourage people if you have a great relationship with your therapist try bringing it up see if you think that it would be helpful to talk to them about it great if you have an existing secure therapeutic relationship let's work with that right but I also think that there are times where people feel that they get a pretty strong message in the room with their therapist their therapist doesn't feel comfortable talking about that and this is where I think mental health education comes into play which is the fact that sexual issues Sex Therapy is not a standard part of becoming a therapist so there are many wonderful therapists out there who would love to help people with their sexual issues but they don't want to ask about it or open that up because it feels to them like they're going into an area that they don't feel again that competence piece right are we not asking or not talking about something because oh it's better because we just feel incompetent or insecure to talk about it and by the way you're saying so many important things but that just to to point out that last piece and this is where one of the when the three of us talk to each other I think one of the words that comes up in almost every single conversation is Nuance right right right because there's it's the Nuance is such an endangered species and and what you're saying in terms of let's say if you're a therapist or if you've worked with a therapist who shied away from the topic of sexuality that might have actually been the responsible thing to do in that context because if you are not qualified or you don't feel qualified or trained or you know confident to talk about it you there is the chance that you could do more harm than good but that's why I think you were suggesting Rachel that you know try to uh you know try to get more confident try to gain more knowledge or consult with somebody who does have that specialty and you know more of that expertise um that's actually how I I ended up in with this specialty I wasn't like didn't set out to do it initially but I you know we said before I'm an lmft licensed marriage family therapist so I was you know we had to take courses in you know sexual dysfunction and Sex Therapy and so I was trained when you're doing an intake you evaluate different areas of the relationship and you always ask within the first session has the sexual relationship like just tell me about how things are in the bedroom let's get that out there because like that is part of the relationship right and then that's not a given that a therapist is even gonna say the word sexual right there right there right there are therapists who think they're asking about it by saying so how often are you together what does that mean and also what does that mean if that's what we're using that like when you're not having sex are you not together right and also I find that that sometimes when that question is asked there has to be uh or at least I think there has to be like an explanation like why this is important because I've seen that clients get like wait why are you at that feels so personal why are you asking that does that matter we have to be able to back that up with like here's why this is important here's why this is like a factor that we need to discuss and there needs to be I need to find out this information you know just like I want to know what's your you know what kind of therapy have you been in what's your history with therapy it's the same that's just as important and I think sometimes clients will feel very like whoa why are you asking me that and so I think any mental health providers who are watching this should really make sure like you are able to explain to a client why this is important information and you're not just being nosy you know it's not like you just want to know it's this is actually really relevant um and and to even accept that discomfort that a client might have of like I don't wanna this is so weird why are you asking me that that's like a very common um at least in in my experience it's been a very common response um because and I and again I have a feeling it's because we're taught like you don't talk about that at all you know um to the point where it's like even in a therapist's office it's weird if they ask you about that you know but you also I would get to that is that I think there's a distinction also I like to make between the interpersonal Dynamic and the intra-personal dynamic very often people only will reach out for help with sexual functioning when there's something that is happening or not happening with a partner and we then skip over this other piece of well what's your relationship like to your sexual functioning in general right if somebody comes from a background where it's not okay to be vulnerable it's not okay to enjoy pleasure if every pleasure is considered guilty pleasure right if if someone grows up in a family where the second you have a piece of chocolate you then have to go for a run because it's not okay to just experience something and just appreciate it that can that can translate into other other things right the relationship to pleasure is very important and so that idea of it's not just about oh how is how is your sex life with your partner and if it's not going well then reach out for help but also people the way they relate to it within themselves I look at I look at sex and Sexual Health as a an expression of vibrancy very often when you talk to people about their sex life or how they feel within themselves if really Taps into how people feel in terms of feeling alive and I would also say that when you make a therapy space a comfortable comfortable space to talk about sex everything else for the most part almost I would say like if you talk about sex everything else feels like fair game not necessarily for the therapist to ask about but for a client to feel more comfortable going into those places yeah yeah I know going back to like what you were saying before Rachel tuckman about you know you don't want to startle a client by starting to randomly ask about sex when they came to talk about something else so the way that I like to do it and again this is true whether you're dealing with an individual when you're dealing with a couple or you're dealing with a person who's in a relationship or not in a relationship is to say you know there's there's sort of a a broader history that I like to take that I want to get to know about you or about your relationship so I want to get to know you cognitively emotionally psychologically what your spiritual framework and also sexual and and you kind of throw that in there as part of like the standard of care so it doesn't feel like they're you know they don't start to feel paranoid like are you are you calling me like sexually odd are you you know saying like as opposed to them feeling targeted or like you know you're intruding a space that they don't want to go I think it's also important to keep in mind that even if if they are coming you know individually or as part of relationships to talk about sex they're still meeting us for the first time and so they you know they there's a warm-up period so what I like to do is say like you know I do this for a living so I have like sort of a very clinical approach to it I'm you know I'm comfortable with it but I understand that this is very vulnerable and personal to you so if I ask you any questions that you're not comfortable answering yet please tell me like I don't talk about that yet like I don't want to go there right now um and and I feel like establishing that level of safety is also modeling boundary setting consent um you know the idea of letting the client have the autonomy as far as talking about this will also you know sort of paradoxically make it more safe and and comfortable and welcoming for them to bring it up if or when they want to because as much as it is important to incorporate you know talking about sex if if a couple or a client will say to me we're good sexually or I'm good sexually that's not really what I'm here to deal with then I want to honor that boundary as well you know for sure I think the same way when you go to a doctor and you're going for you know you feel like you have strep like they still might take your blood pressure meaning like we look at it as taking your vitals I I look at Sexual Health as one of your vitals that it may or may not be related but it certainly can affect everything else and it can be affected by by everything else I mean going back to what you brought up at the beginning it just came out for me while you were talking is that from this communal perspective in terms of right I always like to say there's resolving a situation and there's repairing a system and so the systems piece in terms of the way we view talking about sex the way we talk about relationships and the sense of strain that people feel in their lives when they're having challenges with that and you know I'll give an example so very often when Taurus mishbaka is taught people are taught that if you keep her hakos if you keep the how would you define her tacos because you're the tunnel teacher how would you define that word I would say tacos are not internet oh you're right they're not a sign off well that's that's happened for another discussion yes the uh the added the added layers of boundaries maybe like the yeah yeah okay so very often and I've heard Kyle teachers teach this that and the laws of media are a natural aphrodisiac yeah that will make your sex life better and where I have found there to be a lot of this bad surprise party for people is when they feel that they're keeping those laws but it's not an aphrodisiac and there's tension and communication challenges and I like to flip it around and say if maybe we shouldn't be spending so much time talking about the halafas and seeing them as an aphrodisiac and say instead of saying if you keep neither you're going to have a better sex life I look at it like if you don't have a good sex life what are you counting up to right so if we don't talk about what that entails for people to have a healthy sex life and for pleasure to be part of that then then the whole the whole the whole system will be different the whole story is different and I also want to throw out there I know we're talking a lot about couples I do want to mention that I find that there's a lot of a lot of feelings for you know we have people on in the Jewish Community who are a wonderful marriage minded looking for a partner they still haven't found a partner and I find that for many of them they too want to feel seen in these conversations in terms of the challenges of something not being talked about that's causing a lot of pain in their lives and this you know obviously affects couples but it also affects a lot of single adults in our communities and I know we've talked about this and we see this also just clinically that you know it's it's a very difficult Place very lonely place to be and that it like we we talk about in terms of people wanting to feel that they can move on to the next stage of life and they're a regular human being I always say hormones don't worry yamkas right just because someone is religious does not mean that they're not going to have the same yearnings to you know be engaged sexually so I just said a lot of things all over the place but sure something there maybe we'll stick Rachel tuckman did you want to add anything I feel like I'm doing a lot of talking about for you to I actually I I like the where you were talking about um I mean I liked everything you said but I liked where you brought up that relationship to pleasure and like not allowing ourselves to be vulnerable and and a lot of the work I do that you guys know and some of you here may know or may not know is I do a lot of like body image work I do a lot of um work on talking about body shame and our relationship with food in our bodies and again that's where I think also we're sex education like part of that is learning to trust our bodies and again this is married not married whatever it is like we have to honor our intuitive ability to know what feels good for us I feel like a run I feel like a walk I don't feel like working out I feel like staying in bed a little bit longer I feel like I want to stay in bed but I know it's better for me to get up right now I want that piece of chocolate I don't want that piece of chocolate we really need to teach ourselves right and again like children or not children you certainly cannot teach your children this if this is something that you do not internalize we need to be able to allow ourselves to feel more things and again I know that sometimes I it's not strictly a religious thing but I find this more in you know religious communities where it's kind of like we weren't like not allowed or it's not holy or we have to hold back or we shouldn't be too indulgent indulgent is a word I hear a lot that just really makes me cringe um we have to kind of allow ourselves to feel pleasure and yes you know we also brought up that idea of masturbation and fantasy and like that already like I'm sure when we're saying those words people that are watching are like oh my like what oh my God like that's why they put the mature content warning like this is not something we talk about but the reality is we have fantasies the reality is people talks about it it's in the Torah literature it's talked about and by the way even if you don't want to fantasize sometimes you cannot control the fact that you are going to fantasize right and so when we create a lot of guilt about that I feel so guilty that I'm fantasizing I feel so guilty that I want to eat that bread instead of the salad I feel guilty that I didn't run after I had the Thanksgiving feast we're really doing I think a lot of damage to our body trust our ability like you were saying to feel pleasure and to enjoy you know to really show up fully in this world and that's why I think that you know people will ask me like why are you talking so much about like reject acting ideas of you know rules around food and dieting and whatever because I I believe that that is so much a part of like what steals our ability to fo to show up fully in our lives and it does impact our mental health our physical health our sexual health I think about how many people have told me and I'm sure Alicia and Rachel you both hear this how people really struggle in their sex lives with their partners because of all of their body image issues how they struggle just in their bodies in general going on a date showing up to the party being around people who they you know think look better or we really need to to give ourselves permission to just kind of like I said like enjoy and and show up as we are and and relate to ourselves in ways that feel good without the shame and without the judgment and without the you know trying to to make up for and um and again I think that that starts with you know that body trust and and permission to talk about things think about things and just like I hate the word normalizing but normalizing um just a lot of these things that are very human and natural that we've kind of made like off limits you know well there's that and I also would say that I think that it's very common and and it's understandable that when we're talking about a norm of not talking about something and something being like totally like no-fly zone we can't talk about sex we don't this is just the way it is this is our masora and like all these things that people might say and I think there's often this fear that we're just going to go to this other extreme that we're going to just have no nothing in the middle and that everyone's going to start having sex on the sidewalk and it's just going to become like this total which has lost yeah yeah and so that's where and so I want to just acknowledge that that that there are things and I think Judaism is incredible in terms of the there's so many sensitivities and I'm sure you guys have seen this also just things in Psychology let's say that emerge as like oh a new discovery or new Dada or new and it's like hi um yeah have you read any of the commentaries that we have because like Rashi said that on schmo's like so I I think there's there's a lot of wisdom that we have there's so much wisdom that we already have a lot of relationship wisdom that we have in the Torah that is it's not a new thing that now psychology caught up to it hundreds and hundreds of years later I do you understand the mistrust or the fears around opening up conversations and rocking the boat and and I will say I think there's also the generation gaps I think that right now we see this a lot in therapy you have people who are in a place where they're saying I grew up in a house where we didn't talk about anything I didn't see any kind of affection I didn't see any kind of you know I I like to talk about emotional privilege this concept of you know we talk about racial privilege we talk about financial privilege I like to talk about emotional privilege of basically having spaces people are places where you can share your emotions and it's a privilege because not everyone has it and I always say it's 3hs feeling heard feeling health and feeling high fives and health doesn't always have to be physical just the sense that people can hold space for your emotional experience feeling heard and high-fived in the sense of feeling like they're people that you can celebrate your wins with or a place where you have a team huddle and you know people who are saying I didn't grow up with any emotional privilege and they're not just sort of saying that their parents are bad they're not saying that their family's bad but they talk about feeling like they that they needed more and they're they're finding more now today and dealing with kind of this friction of wanting to talk more about these things coming from a family that that does it for a variety of reasons and kind of trying to find this space of understanding that and I like to call being a respectful disrupter right that it's finding ways of saying okay there's something I want to shift here in patterns but I want to also be respectful about it and I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water so I think again it's that finding that middle that in our society is difficult now with a lot of extremes yeah there are so many important things that you both brought up I was like scribbling um the the nhedonia piece and I think that they'd really go all the things you brought up go hand in hand Rachel the Rachel tuckman bringing up the relationship to body and pleasure and food and intuitive sense of like what's right for me is a huge component towards building that sense of self right the same way we want to have self-esteem you know uh in in a psychological sense right and other esteem right not narcissistic self-esteem that's all about me but you know relational esteem where I can hold myself but not everyone's a narcissist right we're gonna right narcissistic versus narcissist right because according to Instagram everyone's a nurse we're gonna need another hour to like unpack the whole obsession with narcissism but um but yeah so there's there's like you know the the sense of you know the attachment piece right this feeling of um you know you gave the example like if you grew up in a home where you got you know a emotional privilege hugs kisses validation hey do you want to talk about that you seem sad how come your best friend hasn't visited in a while how is that math test you were studying for you know Attunement and attention to a child and student teen and even young adults developing psychological self and life and relationships that kind of gives over the message thousands of thousands of times that what's going on in here and in here matters I want to know about that I care about that right and there's I think like in terms of boundaries there's extremes where people feel sometimes smothered by family of origin involvement where like you're not entitled to privacy and like you have to you know you feel pressured to tell everything and then there's the opposite where you you know over boundaried where you're kind of like there's no space to talk about there's no interest to talk about it and I think you know a lot of people kind of vacillate between those things and you see how those attachment Styles play out emotionally and sexually in friendships and relationships informing attachments in marriages um and then it plays out in the bedroom as well right whether there's a sense of I need more boundary I need more space I need more safety I need the the entitlement of like what do you mean we're not gonna We're not gonna be sexual like if I want to then we should where you're my partner right this is supposed to happen and navigating all of these nuances of relational you know bids and and you know walking towards walking away pursuing distancing so much of this is connected to not like what happens on the wedding night but like what happens all of the you know all of the interactions the millions of interactions we have before um what you said before Rachel herkman about the uh you know that needs us not necessarily an aphrodisiac for everyone you know one of one of the things that I really appreciate about I think what's changing in terms of tower education in the last you know decade or so is like less of a sell you know like like the tour doesn't need us to be salespeople and to tell people why they should be wanting to do this Mitzvah why this is beautiful it's like learn the source like like teach me the information let me decide if I find it beautiful or not because it if I'm committed to the halafah it's like it could be beautiful for me and that's so nice and if it's beautiful for you then I'm happy to hear about that but if it's not beautiful for me then maybe my relationship to it is I'm gonna do it because like I'm connected to God and I believe in Torah but like that added pressure to be inspired by it I think it wasn't doing people favor so I'm happy we prepared it too we prepared it to like imagine if we taught cautious like we teach need to like you're gonna you're gonna keep kosher and your body's gonna just feel amazing amazing all the time everything when you go to Disney World and everyone's walking around with those big turkey drumsticks you're just gonna be like nope I'm sorry that's gross here I just want to have not whatever whatever non-cultural food that might appeal to one I remember the first time I saw this turkey drum that's the funnel cakes the funnel cake the funnel cakes right yeah powder the sugar I have no desire I just want to sit here and have my hot tuna sandwich that's been sitting in my knapsack and I just feel great as it goes down right we don't teach Crossroads that way we don't get all flowery about it in that way but with Tara like we want to sell it and again I think there's so much wisdom in it and I don't want to sound like I'm just railing against it I just think the way it's being educated what's happening is that you have people who get married and feel like there's something wrong with them there's something wrong with their relationship that they're not feeling this high that people are talking about just want to clarify a joke before about like everyone being a narcissist that everyone's not a narcissist I do want to mention that like there are narcissists out there and very often in our community when we have situations of abuse you you'll have situations where someone is being really hurt by someone who might qualify in terms of criteria of being a narcissist so I just wanted to just add that because I know I made light of that before of saying oh the social media says everyone's a narcissist for people who really have been abused by narcissists it's a horrific horrific it messes with your brain I just want to mention that because I made light of it before yeah yeah no I I appreciate that you said that because you know I was using it as an adjective not as a as a noun and that's an important distinction um yeah just kind of Shifting to the correction you know so for example when people got the education in let's say college classes that like the need the laws are going to enhance and make your your married life beautiful and then like let's say it doesn't in at least in the short term if they don't find that it enhances in fact some a lot of couples report that during the time they they struggle right they're not always often it's beautiful and they love it and that's amazing but you know people are going to respond in all different ways sometimes that results in guilt you know people feel like I must be doing it wrong and it's like it could be but from a high advantage point you're doing it totally correctly and then we just have to sort of reshuffle the relationship Dynamic around the needs of the couple you know that are in a way that's going to work for you so I think that what I was trying to say is that we want to sort of say there's there's two different things going on there's our relationship to like halafa and Torah and God and we're going to observe that in whatever way you know is that person's you know commitment Missouri choice and there's a relationship within the couple themselves hopefully they have a similar enough orientation towards Alaska that that won't be a problem for them but they're going to you know be choosing to follow it and then like they're gonna sort of like you know you have you have different components of your life and then you also work that into your relationship so you know you're not going to be like Oh I'm working too many hours and I want to spend more time with my spouse I'm just going to quit my job like no most people need jobs so you know you either kind of like figure out a way to get creative and make time for your for your relationship or you know you look for another job but then you have to you know kind of that's a big decision and a big process you have to replace it first and that's also where I think we talk sometimes about the malleability of halifa and having communication with electric authorities that sometimes can allow the you know not even that the halacha changes but like part of halafah is that it's often you know person specific and you know and can be adapted as needed because it's actually the elasticity is built into the structure of it which I think is really important when I'm working with a couple where in let's say in many cases it's a woman who's having that anhedonic relationship to sex right she's not enjoying she's not feeling pleasure she's not feeling desire right very often the starting point that I want to go to is what can you feel pleasure from right is it ice cream is it chocolate is it a back rub is it a spa day like where where have you if at all ever experienced physical physical pleasure and use that as the framework as the Baseline the starting point for kind of building up and so often the person will tell me like I don't really know like that's just not something that they've focused on before and then we start this educational process of like hey hold on a second what if we explore the idea of pleasure as a value not as you know sex is something that you owe to your partner or need to you know figure out so that you can stay married but something that like could be a resource for the relationship and then you know kind of take baby steps from there which is why and I think the three of us have discussed this before I'm a big fan of the idea of pre-color classes you know Rachel to herkman you mentioned this before that you know it's almost not fit not almost I think it's not not so fair to the Hassan and kala teachers and to the Hassan and kala to create for everything I call kts the college trauma stress disorder like 30 years later they can't remember where they parked their car or other events but they remember exactly the way their college teacher for them they feel like let them down yeah it's like but what happened in the 20 years up until that before that dumped them on the Apollo teachers stoop and say teach them not just everything they didn't learn but yeah right 20 years of sex of not just non-education because non-education is education it's totally communicating this is taboo and this right there's all kinds of messaging that happens either you know explicitly or subliminally and so I I really like hope and pray for a you know a reality where people who are old enough to even consider starting to date are going to be introduced and offered and I know that a lot of high schools and some you know post-high School Educational places seminaries and and yeshivas will do sort of like a very Elementary group setting a group setting is a totally different animal so that's what I was going to say is that you'll ask questions like I told my my adult children who are not dating like time to take class in a college classes right like one-on-one because if you're gonna start dating you need to know what you're signing up for as far as like if you want to be in a halachic marriage and I think there's like this kind of like you said the bad surprise party like the bait and switch of like you got engaged and you got you made a commitment and you're starting to plan this big party but you don't even fully know what you actually committed to and there have been you know like you know I've met probably a few hundred people who are like yeah that was like I did not have a clue what like I was what you know this was going to be until after I was already engaged or even married and that's really so hard it's so hard for couples and again this is not about bashing or vilifying schools communities parents I really truly believe in my heart that the vast majority of people involved in education and parenting aren't really doing the best they can and want the best they they can offer to their students and their children but like you said there's I happen not to be and this is my own bias I don't think it's the school's responsibility to give sex ed not in the public schools not in the private schools I think that that's that's the purview of of families you know we're families fall short I think it's it's nice for the schools to kind of fill in you know in certain ways there's ninth grade biology there's you know certain you know places that that lend themselves very beautifully to incorporating to our perspectives on these things but I think like the Baseline values are going to come from the home that that has always been the case I think um but yeah yeah no and and just I guess to come full circle and wrap it up because we are out of time now I think just to what you were saying Alicia about like you know those surprises and the bad surprise party I'm always I have like a one-track mind when I think about this stuff but then I always say it goes back to building that trust in our bodies and in our realities and validation and all that stuff that we're supposed to be giving our kids that we need for ourselves like I feel that listen you can't be prepared for every surprise when you get married you know there are going to be things that come up but if we can prepare ourselves if we can prepare our kids if we can do the work either you know if you didn't have that background like to go if therapy is accessible or listen podcast self-help books those are really helpful to to give yourself the tools to trust you know what things are hard but I can handle this and I don't always have to question my reality and if I'm unsure about something I can reach out to someone people my my feelings and thoughts are important I don't have to suppress them I don't just have to tolerate this discomfort I can get help I think that we would have just a much healthier Society healthier marriages healthier relationships with family members and whatever it is but again I think that starts with teaching from a very young age and again if you did not get that at a young age it is never too late I tell people give it to yourself now if you didn't get it from your parents we can you know we can work through that that sadness or resentment or that anger or whatever it is we can move to acceptance and you can say now I am an autonomous adult and I can give this to myself with a support system and so I think that's important like to to realize that so much of our experience in this world is tied down to is tied to not tied down to tied to the trust that we have in ourselves and and our perception of things and again not that just because I'm feeling a certain way it's the reality no but again I think that there is something to saying hey I'm noticing that this is hard for me or that this is a struggle and I want to find out if there is a way to get help for this um and I I think that's that's important for people to to do and and I do think it starts with these conversations about you know again our bodies Our feelings our relationships the conversations we have conversations with people that that feel sensitive but they're done insensitive and trusting ways it's really important that we that we do more of this you know yeah so I just I would just wrap it up by singing I just really appreciate amudim trusting us to be able to have this conversation and Amazon also trusting the community of being able to have this conversation because you know these conversations are are big but they can also you know it takes it takes courage to do it and I just feel really lucky that we are out of place now in our community and in the mental health world and in the Jewish mental health world where we're having these conversations and that people are people are reaching out and and seeking to find more not just Clarity but a sense of Peace sense of Peace within themselves feel more connected to feel more present not just from a sexual perspective but to be more present for who they are for what makes them who they are their sense of what makes them feel alive and feeling like they can find language and find connection find Community um with others who who can't see them and can't understand them or are trying to understand them better so thank you again beautiful um can I just like say a couple Last Words also please I I think that when people hear a talk like this it can be a little overwhelming especially if you are of the the of the variety that didn't get the education that maybe you would have liked or needed and so I always like to offer resources so Rachel herkman Rachel tuckman and I each have websites we all have a tremendous amount of free content written content video content um some paid content as well courses and and the like on my site I don't know if they have but they might I have also a resources list of links to really wonderful books that could be used to um to kind of fill in the missing pieces um both from a Jewish perspective and from you know just a psychological sexological perspective so you know like Rachel herkimos is saying and Rachel's Hackman you said as well it's never too late you can start getting this now you know at whatever stage of life you're up to it's one of the most um potentially you know potential filled areas of life thank you so much um Rachel Rachel and I'm within for hosting this thank you [Music]