I Survived Inc*st Abuse Inside My Own Family — Breaking the Silence - Bassy K- S2- Ep15

The truth is that I was abused by multiple people and they were all within my close family. When there is incest, it takes so long for the person to realize that something is wrong cuz they don't know different. It's really hard to talk about to, you know, these are family members. They're they're our flesh and blood. Maybe it was not okay to be treated that way >> and maybe my body is not for everybody to use. We don't talk about this. It's it's uncomfortable. It's maybe not sneez. I think there is a picture of like an abuser being some kind of monster that you would be able to tell, >> right? But it's not true. >> No. Wouldn't believe me because the people I I would name are very people. >> The biggest prevention you can have is have a good relationship with your children. What would you say to family members who don't have the courage to speak up when they find out that something like this is happening in their own home? Okay. We are honored and humbled to hold space for uh a voice that carries both um unbearable pain >> and um unimaginable courage. For you to come out in public and talk about this and bring this subject up is a tremendous tremendous thing. our guest who has lived through one of the most uh hidden and heartbreaking forms of abuse um and trauma. It's called incest, sexual abuse. >> Yeah. >> Within the very place that was supposed to keep you safe and the place where you should have a safe haven just the opposite happened. speaking about this um is a next level of bravery. >> Next level of bravery that most can't even fathom. This is not for the sake of conversation. What we're doing today is um we want to break the silence. >> Yeah. >> And we want to give a voice uh to those who need it. Now what I want to make clear is that what we're doing here is that we are bringing awareness. We are bringing awareness to a subject that has stigma. We are bringing awareness to uh recovery. We want to validate other people who uh were abused so they know they're not alone. So they know they're not crazy. So they know that the pain is real. That's what we we we want to do. We want to support the people and we want them to learn how to show up. If a victim comes and complains, not to just uh think that this is this is nothing, nothing is happening. They want to show up. We want friends to listen to this, parents to listen to this and partners. Everyone should understand that this is real. um this comes with shame and this comes with um a lot of times um this subject um thrives on secrecy. So that's why we we it's important to talk about it. It's a subject and I'm asking everybody if you're going to listen in, please listen with an open heart. >> Thank you. >> Now we're going to get right into it if you can share um your name is >> Basi. >> Basi. What is your story? >> Um, so I grew up in New Square. >> Okay. >> Till I was 13 and then we moved out to Muny. Um, growing up I really thought I had a normal childhood like this is the way things are supposed to be. And I I just thought about it the other day and I was thinking of why I thought that's normal. Um, so I was I I reminded myself that when I got married, I made breakfast for my husband the first time and I served him scrambled eggs with ketchup cuz that's the way my family does it, >> right? >> And he looked at me and he thought I was crazy cuz he never saw such a thing, >> right? >> But that's all I knew and that's all he knew. So a lot of times when there is incest it takes so long for the person to realize that something is wrong because they don't know different. It's growing up with with that pain sur you know they're they're they don't know a different family dynamic. >> How old were you when this was happening? >> So to be honest from my earliest memories I don't know when it started and Also, because it's family, I don't know exactly when it ended. >> It's it's unclear, but for a very big chunk of my childhood that that was going on. >> Yeah. >> And this was a very close family member because I want to I want to talk about the difference between abuse, which we know sexual abuse, and incest, which is a step further. It's even worse than regular abuse. >> Yeah. >> So, the truth is that I was abused by multiple people >> in the family >> and they were all within my close family. Yeah. >> Wow. Um, what do people not know about incest abuse? >> A lot of people know nothing. And the re the reason being is that it's really hard to talk about to you know these are family members. They're they're our flesh and blood. Nobody wants to really out their closest relatives and it gets really complicated when it's a even now I'm I'm measuring my words because I want to protect the family members that didn't abuse me but I also don't want to out the ones that did because they're still my family. So, it it gets so complicated and for some people that still have, you know, close relationships with their abusers because they're it it colors your whole world. >> Yeah. >> Is it safe to say that this we call it sickness? I don't know what this is, but is it is it that they take advantage of the idea that they know that the victims will not throw him under the bus? Just what you described right now. Is that part of it? >> I'm sure that's part of it. Yeah. >> Because they know what they carry. They know that there is a family dynamic over here >> and it is so uh difficult >> first of all to deal with it yourself and also to come to to to to go to authorities or to they take advantage of this. Oh yes. Yes. And also the in general abuse happens when there's a power dynamic, right? >> And usually the abuser is a lot more powerful than the victim, >> right? Because of the age difference or it's just a >> Yeah. I think it's age difference, but I also think that it's much easier to say, you know, there's whatever family member cuz obviously if you've been through abuse, you struggle. So they're crazy cuz they're struggling. I'm the normal person over here. Why would you believe a crazy person? >> Yeah, it is it is it is uh horrific what you're describing over here. Um can you describe uh the feelings that the secrecy that you carried with yourself during that time because this was during childhood and you went to school. >> Yeah. family gatherings and gatherings. What feelings did you carry silently during this uh ordeal? >> Yeah. So, it's very interesting to think back because while it was happening, I was so unaware of what's going on. I my and I know for everybody it's different, but my coping strategy or coping mechanism was to to really disassociate. There were so many different parts of me that didn't know that others exist. So there there were definitely things in my childhood that were thinking back were I was a walking wreck. I I I felt unworthy of having friends. I struggled in school. I couldn't concentrate. I felt like a worthless person. I remember even as young as probably 10 having suicidal thoughts. Yeah. But I didn't know that that was not normal. I was cuz on the outside I was really functioning well. I was a good kid. I did I I I worked hard. So I struggled, but I I did well because I really worked hard. I was the golden child. I took care of everybody and everything. I made people around me feel so good about themselves. So on the outside it looked really good. So what's what's interesting is what you're saying is at one point you didn't know that this is um not normal. You felt that this is normal but on the other hand quietly silently you felt worthless. >> Yeah. >> Now where does that come from? Your gut feeling told you as a child which you're not educated in the subject. Okay. This was something new to you. Um but your gut your your your your gut told you that something is wrong. When did you notice that this is this is this is something is off? >> So to be honest, the realizing the sexual abuse and and and starting to deal with with that didn't come till I was probably 25 or 26. it it that that part didn't feel safe to even discover till I was in a much better place in my life and I was out of the constant being triggered >> and I was learning that I'm allowed to have feelings. >> Wow. you know, and and that's really when I started realizing that maybe it was not okay to be treated that way >> and maybe my body is not for everybody to use and maybe even people commenting about my body feels uncomfortable and and all those that's where it started and then slowly it unraveled and thank God I'm here >> now. um throughout these years of abuse that was going on now you're looking back. Did you share it with anybody or did you have somebody in school or did you have a safe place or a person that you said something is off? Um I didn't share directly but I I dropped hints. >> Mhm. I I remember mentioning certain things to my parents of stories that were going on um and the message really was that and and again this is not with blame. I really I I came to a place where I really understand where my parents came from, >> everything, but it was the message was you don't talk about it because you're disgusting for talking about it. >> Right. So that was the reaction that you got that as soon as you brought something up, >> this was such a a >> unwelcoming subject. Yeah. that that you were pushed to the side and maybe you're dreaming, you're thinking, you have fantasies or whatever the case. >> No, I I don't think I was doubted. I I don't think my parents doubted me. >> It was just not a subject to talk about. >> We don't talk about this. It's it's uncomfortable. It's maybe not sneez. I don't know. But like we don't talk about these things. >> And you just went back and you took it as uh that's what you were told. >> I took it with shame. >> Yeah. >> Wow. And that must be very very painful because what do you do with those feelings? What do you do with those? >> I stuffed them down. >> You stuff them down >> till I was a lot older. Yeah. >> Yeah. Now, did you ever think um about when you think about these abusers? Um did you ever try to analyze where this entitlement comes from, where the sickness comes from? uh uh what what is behind it that they feel that they can take advantage of uh of of of family members just regular people. >> So I can't talk for everyone. I can talk from my situation. It's not surprising there's a much greater context to somebody that abuses sexually >> than just be being a sexual predator. Mhm. >> I think there is a personality that comes with it, a manipulation. In my childhood, I knew, as much as I didn't know that the sexual abuse wasn't okay, I knew that these specific people are difficult people. >> Mhm. >> So, I never tried analyzing why they did what they did or maybe continuing to do what they're doing. It just it made sense in my head because because of the way they they act in the world in general, >> right? So, you saw that their personalities was off. >> Yeah. >> And they're entitled in a million different ways. Yeah. >> And this is one of them. >> Yeah. And and maybe this is the adult part of me speaking. I don't know if as a child I realized all that, >> but Yeah. Does a abuser, a sexual abuser especially does incest, uh do they abuse everyone in the family or they choose particular people? >> I don't know. >> Mhm. >> I do know that it's a known thing in the family that some people are just perverted. I know there are other victims. I don't know how many. >> Um, >> did you did you hear from other victims in the family? Like did a few victims at least get together and discuss this as a reality or it's still not a thing? >> I'm the only one that came forward, but I know that there are there's more. >> Mhm. And the question is also if they choose particular kids that they feel that they will protect them or they have a way how to manipulate them and there are certain kids that you doesn't you know that the manipulation doesn't work. Is it a pick and choose idea or they're they're just if they're sick they they would just you know abuse anyone and everyone that gets close to them? >> No, I think they they pick they're very smart people. >> Yeah. They're I I listen to your speaking about narcissism. >> Oh, yeah. >> And it's very much >> very manipulative. Yeah. >> They they know how to pick the victims. They know how to speak to make you do things and they know how to >> Yeah. So, I don't think everybody in their wake was abused. I think there is a picture of like an abuser being some kind of monster that you would be able to tell, >> right? But it's not true. No, they if if if I were to name names, even though the close people to me will not be shocked and as I disclosed to people, nobody was shocked. But anybody in the outer circle would be really surprised. They wouldn't believe me because the people I I would name are very people. >> Wow. people who walk the streets and they're they look like normal people. They don't look like monsters, special people. >> Unbelievable. That pain is even worse because of that because you're the one who uh is made look like, you know, the crazy one. Do you recollect any um methods that they use for a little child? So the child should get lured in um manipulation tactics that they use to make it sound like this is normal or don't make a big deal out of it and just play it down. So it's all hindsight because you know >> when it was happening I wasn't but I I it's complicated because of the different people but there were definitely some that that did a lot more grooming than others and a lot more you're you're my favorite and you're special and >> you're awesome and it's us against the world. But there was >> it was that kind of talk. >> Yeah. Not with all but definitely with one. >> And how did that make you feel? >> Very confused >> because you also understood that this is not your this is not a friend in school that you know that you're having a a click with or a squad. This is this was a a huge age difference was it? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I all the people that abused me are adult were adults when they abused. But I think that there's a greater context of the the the reason why a child would be vulnerable to this kind of abuse is usually because they're starving for love >> the child. >> Yeah. And I I'm not here to blame anybody. Correct. And I I want to keep on repeating this cuz I >> the part of me that needs to protect my parents, >> right? >> Cuz they really did the best they could, >> right? >> Um but I was starving for love. I really just wanted someone to love me for me. >> Right. >> And abusers take advantage of that. >> Absolutely. And there sometimes could be good parents uh who are doing their best and that child just has a huge love tank. We need we need love and uh and and and if a predator takes advantage takes advantage of the situation and and and and the victim the codependent will think for a second that this guy is going to fill the the love tank. >> Yeah. >> And they look for it in all the wrong places. >> Yeah. >> And it's unbelievable stuff. Um what do you think about this idea of victims not being believed? What do you think about dismissing victims because you were also dismissed? >> Yeah. Um, it's very painful. It is really, really painful because, and again, I'm not speaking for all victims, but most of us don't believe ourselves either. >> It comes a point that you doubt yourself. Did you that you question your own memories? >> Yeah. Especially if being that I was so disassociated that I didn't have the memories till I was in my 20s and I was I was a mother of a few kids and I was in a total different environment and >> yes and I I know I'm not alone in this. A lot of people are disconnected from their memories till till it's safe to remember. And when you don't and now I I I don't say I didn't have memories. I wasn't connected to them. Correct. >> So if I'm doubting me, then when other people doubt me, >> Yeah. >> it makes me feel crazy, >> right? >> Yeah. >> It's very very tough. I can't imagine how a child would walk uh to school and and have friends and move on with their life and grow up and have such confusion. So much things don't make sense in their in the in their mind. What's wrong? What's right? You're being taught in school one thing, you see other things. Here are the people who you want to be safe and secure and it's neglect. What is really going on over here? >> Yeah. >> So, it's it's it's it's painful painful stuff. What would you say is the warning signs that a child I mean young people parents are listening to this um what would you say is a warning sign that parents the mentally healthy people in in children's life should know and to teach the kids >> a warning signs something is off something is not good >> yeah so it's interesting because when I think about it there's a lot talk of addiction that comes out of people that were abused and different kind of struggles. And I was a golden child. I was really I was a real good kid >> in school and at home. >> School and at home. I I listened nicely. I did everything I was told. I was so afraid of people not liking me >> that I just pleased all over. >> The pleasing child. >> Yeah. So, it's very hard to say that this is a warning sign or that's a warning sign. M but what I can say is if you're in tune to your children and you know what your child's normal behavior is and that is off that's a warning sign that something is going on something is bothering them and whether it's sexual or not it needs to be dealt with >> right >> I think that the biggest prevention you can have is have a good relationship with your children >> it is so important what talk to them and and before you can talk to them, I think that there's a a big part of getting rid of your own shame around it cuz otherwise they're going to pick it up even if you try not to >> Yeah. >> give it over. >> What you're saying is very profound. What you're saying is that the root of all the problems is that here's a child who is everyone is looking for love. Everyone wants it. This is that a bunch of children created it this way. We all want to be loved. But what you're saying is the relationship between the parents and the children, the open relationship, the open conversations, sharing with the children how you feel and how your weaknesses and uh it's okay. This is what life is all about will not let the child You don't need to have video cameras. You don't need to have security guards protecting your children all day by the mere fact that you have this special relationship with your child that your child feels secure and your child will feel um heard and understood that will protect the child from the worst. >> Yeah. >> Is what you're saying. >> Yeah. I I think that it's twofold. I think that a secure child comes across so much more confident and they are much less of a target. A >> to predators, >> B, we can't ever prevent everything. We can't >> put them in a box. As much as I would love to just keep them in a bubble so they can grow up safe. We can't do that. But what we could do is have a relationship that if something does happen, they feel safe to come forward. come forward and share and being supported and not being dismissed. >> Y >> unbelievable stuff. >> Um during all these years you became engaged. >> Yeah. >> And then you got married and you went through the entire system. >> Yeah. >> Till this came to the surface. >> Yeah. >> Now did you share this information with your spouse? So, it's it's interesting because I got married when I was 20. By the time I was 24, I had three kids. >> And I really struggled from day one of my marriage. And again, that's that's hindsight. >> I didn't realize then that that things felt so off. >> Um, and we were struggling. We were struggling very deeply and it took a lot of work from both of us to um to get to a place where we can even dis discover what's going on in >> in that area. And I think my husband was probably the first person I shared with >> if I remember correctly. Yeah, >> that is that is something else. Now, do you remember what kind of lies you told to yourself that um it's okay, it's going to pass, it's what kind of stories did you tell yourself to uh to help you, you know, with this uh issues that you had? >> Well, for one, I told myself that I'm crazy, >> that normal people don't feel like this. there must be something wrong and broken with me. Um, and also being a a classic codependent, I didn't really my needs really didn't matter. It was really about how everybody around me felt. >> So, if I couldn't fix that, I would be so angry at myself cuz I I needed everybody to love me to be okay. >> That is a huge problem. And did you figure out how um this codependency how to get out of it as far as starting to love yourself? Because I guess uh I'm seeing at this point in time you have a voice and you can get up and you can talk about it. >> You did a lot of inner work. Um >> how do you do with this um loving yourself, people pleasing? Are you did you give up on it already a little bit? I think that healing goes in spirals >> and there are definitely things that you have to keep on coming back on a higher level, a different level. I'm definitely a different a different person than I used to be. I used to not do anything >> that others would disapprove of, >> right? >> As much as buy a dress in the store, right? >> If my mother or my husband didn't like what I bought, I would return it, >> right? um I'm not that girl anymore, >> right? >> But there there's definitely areas that we can always improve in, >> right? It it's a it is a journey >> and they say that sometimes codependency is like an addiction. It will bring you back feel so comfortable in the position of being a codependent and um but it's refreshing and liberating to know that uh I I want to stand up for myself. No is not an ugly word. You can say it. It's fine. >> Not only it's not ugly. I think for me I had to learn that it's not dangerous. >> Right. When you spoke when you finally spoke to your family or you finally spoke to people about this subject, what was their reaction? >> Um it was painful part of the journey was actually talking about it. Um because again when I spoke to family members, nobody was surprised. >> So it's not like I wasn't believed. It was more that people couldn't understand why I was making a big deal about it. >> Right? >> And that was really painful. But by the time I was ready to share, I came from a place that I don't need anything from them. I don't need their love. I don't need their approval. I don't need them to believe me. I shared out of a place of this is my boundary and if you can't respect it then I can't have a relationship with you. >> Right? I just read in a book that someone wrote that um I am my own mother. I am my own sister and I am my own child. Everywhere every external environment that you're looking for love, you give it yourself. That's a learning curve. >> That is that is that is >> a lifetime of work. >> Yes, that is. How did you deal with um loneliness must have been a very lonely path? Um >> to know this information in your head to feel that it's not right. How did you deal with that? Um, so for the first part of my life as a child and even my young adult life, I really dealt with it with self-hatred. I hated myself so deeply. And it was for sure my fault why I can't have normal relationships. And if I just tried harder and if I was just what everybody else needed, then maybe I wouldn't. And again, I had no idea why I was doing what I was doing. I was so unaware. I was so disconnected. Um, later on when I started healing and I started therapy, it was a very slow and painful process, but eventually I I joined groups. >> Mhm. >> And I joined I got support. I have awesome therapists. And also I'm blessed that my husband has been incredible. As much as it's not easy, he's been there for me. >> There's a mind. >> Yes. Yeah. >> It's amazing stuff. Now, um being the pleasing uh child and and on the other hand, you were saying you're almost selfharming. I mean, you felt that the relationships with your friends as a young adult was was was not working out. You felt angry. You were upset. I mean, why the blame? >> It's just something that that happened out of, you know, necessity to survive. I think some people >> everybody does something else with their pain. For me, it it was a lot in wording. Yeah. There was a lot of suicidal ideiation even as a young child. A lot of self-hatred. There was a time in high school when I was not I didn't know that was called self harm. But I was really I would pick my skin till I would bleed and and I I wasn't satisfied till till that happened. Um, I told myself nobody likes me because I'm such a worthless person and I'm so socially awkward. And probably if you ask my friends, they would be really shocked that I thought that of myself cuz I was always surrounded by people. There were always people around me >> and I always felt so lonely. >> Yeah, >> that's painful stuff. Now I want to talk about this suicidal thoughts and stuff and you were saying that this is >> you remember this going back when you're pretty young. >> Yeah. >> Is is this in is this coming in because you don't see light by the end of the tunnel? Where till suicide there's a million other ways how to deal with this but you are at the end. You were already thinking to yourself I don't see it. I don't see it. Anybody that I needed to trust or there was no one there that pushed you to that thought. >> Yeah. So again, I think it's different in my adult life than in my childhood life because I've had both. >> Um and as a child, I I really didn't know what was happening to me. I I didn't know why I I would think and fantasize. I even remember I my mother is a very clean person and she bought a oven cleaner and she told us that nobody's allowed to touch it cuz it's really dangerous. Um you could probably get burnt or you know like it's a very strong >> chemical. >> Yeah. And for some reason I understood that if you get in contact with it you die. And I sprayed myself with it. And then I was so scared that I'm actually going to die. And I didn't know why I I didn't know why I did that. >> So I don't have an answer of like what brought me in my childhood to go there. I think that in my adult life, I I remember clearly when pain became so unbearable and I didn't know how to how to live. I didn't know how to to cope with life without being in such excruciating pain every second of the day. That's when suicidal thoughts came. And and it also came with a lot of other things. It came with flashbacks. It came with not being able to be there for my kids the way I really wanted to. >> And I felt that they're probably better off. People would treat them nicer if their mother was, you know. Yeah. It it is very important what you're saying right now because people have to recognize the damage that this does for for for a victim >> and people think it's just easy to get over get over it, you know, and what you're sharing right now is damage beyond beyond words. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if you ever get over it. >> Yeah. You can get to a place of learning to to love life even though the pain exists. >> But you can't get rid of this pain. It's like a physical chronic illness that you just can't get rid of cuz it happened. You can't make it on happen. >> Yeah. Um and what kind of questions did you ask yourself um during the period of recovery like why me out of everyone else? Um >> no I don't think I asked myself why me. I in the beginning it was a lot of who said this even happened >> denial. Why would you not remember something that actually happened? You must be making it up. I used to tell myself, this is your excuse for for behaviors that are not okay. >> Yeah. Um and then I think that when I got much deeper into the healing, there weren't any more questions. I was just trying to keep my head above the water. >> Right. And here you have children and you have to be a mother and you have to move on with your life. >> Yeah. >> What you're doing is amazing. And I'll tell you what you're doing. Um you're showing the world that there is no giving up. You're showing the world that no matter what, unfortunately, you went through a terrible, terrible time in your life, but if you refuse to throw in the towel. Yeah. >> Which is um which is something and that's why it's so important that the public should know this. >> Yeah. >> The public needs to know that there is light by the end of the tunnel. Public needs to know that you can you can stand up. You can think greater than you feel. >> Yeah. I think yes. It's a big part of my healing was the speaking up. >> Wow. >> And I know it's not for everyone, just like reporting abuse is not for everyone. And >> but for me, this was a big part of the getting better was being able to speak about it and and also give hope. Definitely. And there's so many lessons that I've learned and the person that I had to become that I'm grateful I am the person I am. I'm not grateful for what happened, but I'm I'm really grateful for having done the work and stuck it out so I can that I can be who I am. >> Right. And now what you're doing with it is you're taking an of people who are listening to this, who are going through this right now. >> Yeah. >> And there's no there's nobody to talk to. Nobody understands them. >> There's no voice. And you're standing there and shouting that you know what, you're not the first one. And become aware and and and and there is help out there. >> Yeah. And unfortunately, there are so many people who understand. >> Yeah. >> There's too many that really know this pain. >> Yeah. >> Way too many. >> Because what they're saying is when it comes to abuse, sexual abuse, that the it's a lot of thing. Most of it is happening in the home. Most of it is happening in family. >> Yeah. From the people I know, that I've worked with, and that I've become good friends with, I would say over 90% >> Wow. >> are incest survivors. >> That is a crazy number. >> A crazy number. >> Yeah. >> What should parents or educators, teachers, principles, and schools know of how to uh identify or to see a child's behavior? because maybe they can save someone's life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it's not my I don't usually talk about prevention. I I leave that up to the experts, >> right? But I do know that if you're in tune, it all it takes is some sensitivity and in tunement and talking to kids and in a way of not scaring them and not shaming them about their bodies, just saying the these things are okay. We're humans. We we can talk about stuff. And then just have your eyes opened. If you see, again, if you're in tuned and you see something is off, then do something about it. I I recently had with one of my daughters came home from school and she told me that a her friend told her that a different kid held her in the bathroom and exposed herself and said that she can't leave till she looks. And for some reason, the child felt safe telling my daughter. >> And I don't think that it's coincidence. I think that kids feel when there are safe people around, >> right? >> And then my daughter came home and told me, >> right? >> And I was able to do I called the principal. I said, >> "If you give this kid a a speech about sneeze, you've defeated the purpose over here." >> Correct. >> Cuz this kid is in pain. She's acting out cuz something is going on. That's what's that what needs to be tended to. >> That's called intuition. >> Yeah. And I think that if we can just be in tune and then when things come up, don't push it to the side. >> Wow. >> That that is a very very important message. Um now, as far as um when you got married and you're living now with this new person, >> Yeah. the how difficult was was this relationship in the beginning when you started out and and how did you go about it and made it work? >> It was really again hindsight because right when I got married I didn't really realize how difficult it was. >> Mhm. >> But I I got married I lost 30 lbs. I was so disgusted with myself and I had no idea why. I had my kids really quickly again because I was just >> robotic. You were you were you were robotic. >> I was filling roles. I wasn't a person. I was I was >> I was doing what everybody needed me to do. And it took a lot of work from both our parts >> to, you know, to make it work and really learn how to communicate and feel safe around each others. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Amazing stuff. Now, what did you do with feelings or do you still have feelings of revenge and of anger and being upset? How did that come into your life? >> So, angry anger is a scary thing for me. >> Mhm. >> So, haven't gotten >> staying away from that. >> Yeah. I haven't I haven't gotten there. It's not it's it's a I don't know what's going to happen when I do get there, >> right? >> But yeah, >> you're staying away from it. But did you have feelings of revenge? >> No. >> At one point? >> No. No. I I do have feelings of really wanting to protect other people. >> Mhm. and feeling powerless to do so, but not revenge. >> You don't you don't even go down that avenue. You're into healing and you're into making a difference. >> Take whatever you know and your experiences and share it and and and make a difference in people who can make something positive out of it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm focusing on on taking care of myself and my and my children and and doing my part to >> to survive >> to survive and also to bring light into this world. I I really truly believe that and I've heard people say it and and when I wasn't there yet, I would get upset at it. But I am at the place where I do feel like my nishama chose to want to shine a certain light in this world. >> Mhm. >> And unfortunately it had to come through abuse. >> Right. >> Right. Because you see a lot of times that people choose a different route. >> They choose a route of being quiet. They choose a route of shutting their feelings off. They choose a route of being miserable and angry and they do self harm and you know they become addicts >> and it does not it is not it it goes from bad to worse. >> Yeah. I I don't know if it's a choosing that. I think it's a survival. >> Correct. I think that's the correct word. I really think that people that are still in addiction and still angry and still struggling deeply, they don't want to be like that. >> Correct. >> They just haven't found a different way yet. >> So true. >> And and really to them, I would say don't give up cuz you could you could get to a different place. >> Wow. Now, what is one difficult belief that uh is always coming into your head even to this day that you need to unlearn? >> There's many um I'm still very much a work in progress. >> Yeah. >> And there's because of the nature of my trauma, it feels like it's going to be a lifetime of work. And it's not so much about the beliefs. I think it's about teaching my nervous system that the world is a safe place because it's it's way before it gets to my head in any belief there is just a visceral reaction to things that shouldn't have visceral reactions like if your kid comes up to you and wants a hug you shouldn't your whole body shouldn't freak out. So, it's it's a it's a learning curve and it's I think it's constantly going to be that for me. >> Yeah. >> Wow. And that takes a lot of courage and a lot of work. Um let's talk about um spirituality. >> Yeah. >> About Yiddish kite. You grew up in in in with Yiddish. Yeah. >> With Shama. You grew up like every other per every other regular child. Explain what this did to your Yiddish kite. >> Wow, that's tough. Cuz I grew up with really everything was about Yiddishkite. We lived and breathed. Everything that we did, we were told is Yiddishkite. Right. >> Right. I think since I was a little girl, I was I had a very close connection to God. I would talk to him all the time and I never doubted that part. But I questioned everything else. And it was difficult because I was also the people pleaser that conformed to everything. But in my head, I had so many questions. And maybe I still do. And I think that for people that were abused in a religious context, it's even deeper that struggle. >> Because if the people that abuse are the holy ones or the ones or the real spiritual ones, it really robs you of your own spirituality >> for sure. Um so it's definitely it's been like everything else deep deep hard work. Um also unlearning of what is real yadishk what is just societal pressure what is yeah and also I think that a lot of people go to spiritual bypassing and for a time being I was there >> I I was being good so God keeps me on this world so I can earn my place to stay here. And if I dive in hard enough, if I bargain and I take on a kabula, maybe things are gonna maybe I'll feel better about myself. And I have that was also some unlearning. Um, and it's been a journey. It's been a a very very deep and personal journey. And within the last 18 months, I would say I I came to a place where I I deeply know that I am a part of God, that my soul and God are connected and and I think that that gave me a lot of peace. >> Wow. Powerful words. Um now you said something before that these people who did this to you robbed you from your connection from the you started asking you started doubting your own self and and this whole relationship which is a foundation of a person the way we grew up um robbed you from it literally robbed you from it. So not let not let not let not let not let alone the abuse and everything but you did not have anybody to lean on or to it's it's crazy making. >> Yeah. >> Now what you're saying is with therapy and with help and with searching and with no anger and no revenge you found the again. Um, you're trying to connect. You're trying to be grateful for the things that you do have and for the survival opportunities that you uh you got. Um, and now it literally puts you in a place where you found yourself again. Is that correct? >> I don't know if it's again. I found myself probably for the first time. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Now, how does it make you feel that you have the schlam on your side as an individual? >> There is definitely a a peace. I I I've mentioned this before so it could be people heard, but >> I used to say that there was no before abuse. >> It's born into it and there's nothing nothing bigger than abuse. And it was a very hard reality to live with. Um, and really through finding the only part that was before abuse was my soul >> was that abundant love. >> Yeah. And and and that really gives me tremendous peace. It It's not easy. It's still hard work. It's not like I'm I think that one of the misconceptions is that you arrive somewhere and then you're good, >> right? >> I think that there's when you arrive, you realize that you never get there. You just things get better and slowly the triggers get less and you're functioning better and that's really the arrival. But the turning point for me to get out of crisis and get out of suicidality was to connect to my soul and to God. >> Wow. Powerful stuff. >> Yeah. But I I do want to say that that's not not everybody needs to go that route. And I think there's a a very big component of healing that is spiritual. But if you're not there yet, don't beat yourself up. For some people that it's such a probably me a few years ago, if I would hear me now talk, I would get mad, >> right? >> Just don't bring God into everything, you know? But so if you're not there yet, don't you know, >> it's okay. >> Yeah. One baby step at a time, >> right? What about the idea that um you know um the way that a bunch of them created the world is choice and these abusers chose >> Yeah. >> to to they chose the bad. >> Yeah. >> And it has zero to do with you. Yeah, >> it's not it you're still in the sh you're still connected to the and there's still and to connect these two. The problem is that sometimes these are rabbies and teachers and people in your family who are supposed to teach you is and they're doing these kind of things and of course you throw out the baby and the bath water. >> Yeah. But um the way you describe it is so beautifully put that there was a person before this thing happened even though you didn't know but there was a little numa >> there was ana there >> right there before before this this happened and that gave you tremendous healing. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That is that is refreshing. And there was definitely a part of that. I've mentioned it before. About 18 months ago, I went to I did a psychedelic intensive, >> right? >> And a lot of that came up then. And there was definitely like a a feeling of of um seeing how bright my soul's light was shining. >> That the dark energies couldn't handle that >> and they needed to take it away. Mhm. >> But that's not going to stop me from shining >> right now. Do you feel that um you did a lot of um talking therapy? >> So I did a lot of therapy >> and >> seven years now. >> Seven years. And also um is is it these two things that you use for healing is psychedelics and talk therapy or there was more? >> A lot more >> more. >> Yeah. like what kind of uh >> um so I I've been in traditional therapy for probably seven years now, >> right? >> I did group therapy. >> Mhm. >> Which not support groups, actual therapy within a group system for four years, >> weekly. I did four intensives in total. Not only one was psychedelics, but the other ones were psychodrama. >> Mhm. um and a lot of little other things here and there, >> right? So, you did a lot of lot of inner work. >> Do you recommend uh for other survivors um psychedelic therapy? >> It's complicated. I I don't think anybody should recommend anything to anybody, right? Um if you choose to go down the psychedelic route, >> it should be your choice, right? and and it should be done safely and and you know cautiously. I think it can be extremely beneficial. For me it was and I know for a lot of other people but there's a risk. There's always risk >> and really in anything you do, >> right? What kind of risk is there in uh psychedelics? So I think psychedelics, okay, this is a veing with a very broad brush because there's so many different kinds and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert. It's just from my personal experience, >> but a lot of what it does is it takes away your blockages >> and it allows you to go deeper into your subconscious and deeper into and as much as that has helped me find so much resolution, it's also brought up a lot of pain. Mhm. >> And for somebody who doesn't have the container to hold that pain yet, it can be really scary. >> Even if you do have the container to hold, it can it could be painful. And it has been painful. At the end of the day, it was a healing. It it all of it was with a lot of lessons and a lot of healing, but it it wasn't pleasant lessons. It's hard lessons. It's not a >> I think the people who think that psychedelica is the magic pill. >> Yeah. >> You're in for a rude awakening. It's not. It's hard. >> It's hard work, >> right? What was your first um awareness to go and seek for help? You know, let's say this was after you got married. >> Yeah. >> And uh who guided you to take these routes? either talk therapy, group therapy, psychedelics. >> So, my husband showed me the way >> and I don't know how much of that he's comfortable if I share publicly, but he's definitely been the one to >> to show me the way in in a lot of these things, >> which is super. and and my therapist has been really helpful >> in recommending also a lot of different modalities that >> So what would you recommend if someone is going through a very hard time right now? Everyone has their own story >> and they're looking for help. They are in the middle of uh chaos. What is their first step? What they what should they do right now? Should they start with talk therapy? Should they start where's where's the first step? I think it's really important for people to have whether it's a therapist or a coach or a mentor or somebody that a safe place to come back to. It doesn't matter what they're doing if they're doing intensives or psychedelics because you can have the most amazing psychedelic experience, but if you don't have who to process it with afterwards, you're not going to get the same results. >> Mhm. Um, I think consistent safe connection is probably key to healing, >> right? >> Because we we are wounded in relationships. Doesn't matter what the wounds are, >> right? >> Right. The wounds happen in relationships. So the repair the best repair can happen with with safe relationships. >> Right. So now someone needs to find something somebody like that, you Yeah, >> it is a process. It's not because now you didn't have a issue with trust. >> Oh, of course I did. >> So, so when you go to uh a therapist, even a therapist or even somebody who's a third party, which we can tell yourself, you know, this is a third party and we can totally trust this person. How do you build that trust? >> I I I would like to take two parts of this. I think that the the first part is that it's consistently showing up. Um because trust is not built in a day. And the first two years that I did therapy, I did it over the phone because I couldn't even be vulnerable in person. Um, and I've been with my therapist for many years, and I think that there's always another level of trust that needs to be built. And to just say you're safe and you can trust is not enough for most people because the people that hurt us said the same things. >> Okay? >> So, it's learning. It's a consistent going back and and repairing and and if there is a rupture in the relationship, addressing it and and I remember one of the most healing interactions I've had early in my therapy days was with the first safe the again I'm going to say safe therapist because it wasn't my first therapist that I wanted to leave and that the way they showed up for me saying that this is not working for me anymore was so healing. I think it was the first time someone allowed me to have needs and didn't make it about themselves. >> So, I think that it's a consistent going back. And but then the other part that I I wanted to address is I I've been hurt multiple times and I I I think I even wrote a poem about it once that I saw myself holding my broken, bleeding heart in my hand and running around and begging people to take it and to fix it. And every time I would hand over my heart, it would get hurt or it wasn't satisfying. Even if the person was not hurting it directly, but they couldn't fill that void for me. And it's been experiences with a lot of well-meaning people that I would reach out and I would feel like they don't get me and they don't understand me. Then I would tell myself that I'm crazy. Um, and I don't think any of the people that hurt meant to. I know there are malicious people. I don't think that was the case for the people I've reached out to. But what I had to learn was that I need to hold my heart and I can have support. I have an amazing husband. I have a awesome therapist. I learned to have friends, real friends, to let them in deeply. But none of them can hold my heart. If I give them my heart, it's gonna hurt. I hold it and they can support me through it. So, I think that when when you any work you do, whether it's a therapist or a coach or a psychedelic mentor, it doesn't matter. If you outsource that support, it's guaranteed pain. And I think that part of the healing is learning I can hold this. Also, I'm not holding it alone. I've got people to hold it with me, but ultimately it's my job. >> What a lesson. What a lesson. And it's so true. It resonates so well because there's nobody there. Only you are. There's only you who are there for yourself and you can let other people help out. But >> that's the source. That's the foundation of it. >> Yeah. The therapist that I used to do group therapy with used to tell me all the time, "Nobody knows what you've been through better than you." >> Wow. Wow. Let me ask you about medications. >> Yeah. >> Um, in your case, you felt down, you felt confused. Was there a time that you considered to to to take medication to calm down? I did. I was on medication for probably between 18 months and two years. I don't remember the exact time. Um, and it was a point where things were so excruciatingly painful that it felt like I can't even do the work. Um, and one of the people that were guiding me were saying, "You're trying to do surgery without anesthesia. It's not going to work." So, I did. I went on medication. I was on anti-depressants for two years. It It worked for a while. It did what it needed to and then it didn't serve me anymore. >> Mhm. >> Um and I I I have complex feelings around medication >> because it saved me but it also numbed me out. >> Right. So it has both. that you know it helps you go through a certain time but then on the other hand you don't want to stay on it for too long. Is that what it is? >> Um I think it's a very individual thing but for me I realized >> Okay. So I was prescribed anti-depressant and I had severe side effects of tremors. I couldn't I couldn't do anything cuz my hands were shaking so bad. >> So they gave me a medication to counteract the side. So then I was on two medications and the medication they give to counteract the tremors is a blood pressure medication. >> I was in my late 20s and I one day I was I was thinking to myself, I don't understand why I'm taking blood pressure medication. I don't have a blood pressure issue. I shouldn't be taking blood pressure medication. Um, and at the same time, I realized that the days that I wasn't taking my medication, my brain, and it wasn't intentional, and nobody should listen to my advice or do it the way I did it, >> but the days that I would forget to take my medication, I felt like my brain was clearer, >> like I could think clearer, I could see better, I could f I wasn't walking through a cloud. >> Wow. So that was ultimately my decision to stop. And it wasn't without pain. I think after I went off medication, a lot of the flashbacks came and a lot of the nightmares and but I'm I'm still grateful I did it that way. >> Mhm. So it's an individual case by case um situation. So we have to go to a professional, but it's not something that is it's a no no. Sometimes people need it and it helps them go like you described it. It's like uh anesthesia before uh you know to get through the the major major pain. >> How did you deal with fear? False fear you know either from the abuser or you're just walking the streets and not feeling secure. >> I'm still dealing with that. >> Wow. >> And I I've been a I've been anxious since I can remember. Always had major anxiety. Um, but the kind of anxiety that people around me didn't really know that I was struggling with anxiety because I also didn't share, >> right? >> Um, and I still I can say that in most place when I go in public, there's usually somebody there that reminds me of my abuser. >> And that's not because that person is like them, but that my my nervous system is still not out of that. Um, and then again, it's there's levels, right? It's not it's there are days that are really really hard and then there are days that are better, but it's a real it's a real thing to walk to go anywhere and to um I have made my boundary that I don't come around family when my abusers are there. which means like simas or stuff like that. >> So what is the fear that you have? >> I don't know if there are words to it. It's uh and I've done sim once I started healing. We've had quite a few simas and for the first few I hadn't told anyone and I would just show up and I would not be able to breathe the entire time >> and also need to know exactly where my kids are at all times. I was on such high alert and I felt like I was going to I know something was going to explode. Um, and that's even with blowing them off. Like I wouldn't say hi and I wouldn't let them come close to me, but there was >> just being in the same vicinity was too much. >> And then at a certain point I said if they're around I can't be there. >> You feel like um you're making a bunch of steps forward and every time you go to a simra or every time there is a you have 15 steps back. >> Yeah. Because then it took months to recover. >> Correct. >> Yeah. So you made the decision which is that you come first. >> Yeah. >> And so be it. You can't go. >> And it's a no-win situation. It's not like not going is pleasurable. It's so painful. >> This is my family. I love them. I would love to be part of the course. But at the end of the day, if I choose between being alive and being a mother to my children and a functional member of society and going to the choice is clear. >> Unbelievable. Very smart. Um so in this way and in what other way did you do you think that um this episode in your life damaged you? I think it it challenged every part of my existence, every part of my being. >> You feel that you would be another person. You can almost see that I am somebody else and I am a complete different person right now because of that. >> Yes. Not necessarily only to the negative. >> Right. Although mo probably all the challenges that I've had in my life so far was as a direct or indirect result of the abuse. And that hurts. That really really hurts. and the person I learned to be and the and the character I chose to have and the healing I chose to do. I wouldn't give that up for anything. I wouldn't want to be that. Sometimes I I I see people that I know that are not really in into doing their emotional work. This forced me to have to do it and for that I'm not again not grateful for the abuse but I'm grateful for the person I became because I chose to heal >> and the strength that you have the ko that you have to do it and the smarts and which is a gift a gift gave you a gift. >> Let me ask you what role does forgiveness play in this whole thing? For me, it's non-existent right now. I'm I'm not I know that for a lot of people, it's important for them to let it go. I'm not there yet, and I don't know if I'll ever be there. I think that if it serves you to forgive, then do that. But really, you can only forgive what you acknowledge hurt you. And if you can't really acknowledge how you were hurt, you're not really forgiving. You're just pushing your needs to the side again. >> Right. So what you're saying is that you still hold them responsible. >> Yeah. And forgiving doesn't mean giving up responsibility. >> Correct. >> The adults are always the responsible one in such a situation. And it doesn't matter what they say the child did or said or wanted. >> If you are an adult and you are inappropriate with a child, it's on you. >> So, I don't think forgiveness takes that away. >> And I don't know much about it cuz I haven't gotten there. So, but if it serves you, if it brings you peace, then do that. And if it doesn't, don't. >> Yeah. Now, you seem to be resilient. you know, you fight back, you get up, you don't want to give up. And um how would you define resilience? >> I think it's just it's not getting up and fighting back, even though that is part of resilience. It's just taking the next right step. If today you feel like you need to give up and you didn't give up, that's resilience. If it's hard for you to get out of bed and brush your teeth and take a shower, even if you just brushed your teeth and you didn't shower, that is resilience. It's taking the next step in order to lead a better life. >> And if you do a lot of little steps, eventually you get to look back and you see how far you've come. >> Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. You seem to be a great role model for your children. >> Thank you. You seem to be a u your kids are lucky. That I can tell you because you can sit over here and you can share and you can speak the way you speak and be aware and be and make sure that your kids are safe and secure and help even people outside your circle to be safe and secure. That is that is a you came a long way. That is a a tremendous accomplishment. Now, what do you think the community people and our surroundings can help in a situation like this? What can they do to bring this up to the surface and to believe victims and to uh make this world a better place? >> Yeah. Um, I think there's a lot there's a lot that people can do. And the first thing I want to say is that you've got no idea if anybody else your surroundings is a survivor. And that's the first thing to take into account. And it's not I'm not guilt tripping anyone. And I don't think you need to carry the burden of the world, but just be sensitive to I remember I was at an event and there was a whole group of people having a conversation. I was just a witness to the conversation. It was mostly men and they were jokingly saying, you know, if I would be molested, then I wouldn't need to keep Shabas. Such a pity I wasn't molested. like caused my but didn't touch me then I don't have an excuse for being crazy and they were joking about it. It was a very >> degrading way of saying it and I was it didn't hurt me because thank god I was in a better place but I was looking around and I was able to see that even within that conversation there were some people that were so highly uncomfortable and I can almost guarantee you that they're survivors. you you never know if the person right next to you, if your sibling, if your next door neighbor, they don't survivors don't have a look. They don't have a behavior. They don't have a And I think that that just being sensitive to that is a big thing. I also think that if somebody does disclose to you, um I've had a lot of very silly remarks said to me and again I don't blame people for not knowing what to say. It is an uncomfortable thing to talk about and at this point I am so I just say things as they are. So a lot of people can get uncomfortable. But if somebody close, anybody discloses to you, I think the appropriate response is, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I thank you for sharing. And and maybe if you want a little more, it's like, how can I be there for you? right? >> To say silly remarks or to try to relate if you don't relate and say, you know, I understand because A, B, and C in the silliest I'm I'm not going to go into detail of like real >> and I get it. You're uncomfortable and you don't know what to say, so don't say anything. >> But it also shows the ignorance that the community has when it comes to these. They think it's a big joke and they think there's maybe there's a couple of people in the corner, but most of the this is not happening. They're in denial. >> Another thing that I've heard a lot is that people that were sexually abused mostly are not f and mostly are addicted and I'm okay. Maybe if codependence is an addiction, I'll say I'm a recovering addict. But there are so many I I spoke to a group of people recently at an event and I said if you picture the Sim Hashas with 90,000 men there's about 15,000 people in that stadium that have been sexually abused. They don't and they look just like everyone else and they can you know we can look normal and functional. I want to say something. In the height of my suicidality, if you would see me in the street, you would think I had it all together. >> Of course, >> it's unbelievable. And this is a very, very crucial message for the community and for people. >> Um, I wish you could learn sensitivity. I wish you could there's a school for empathy. >> Yeah. >> But there is not. >> No. So this is something that that um with awareness, with talking, with sharing, with coming out and giving your side of the story and learn that there's other human beings uh being taken advantage of. >> Yeah. >> And being a little bit more sensitive. >> Yeah. What would you say to family members who don't have the guts and the courage to speak up when they find out that something like this is happening in their own home? >> It's hard cuz that would mean saying it to my family. >> Yeah. And I one thing that I unfortunat fortunately or unfortunately part of the person I became because I who I had to become is that I understand people more than I understand myself sometimes. >> So I I think it is so hard to stand up for what's right. It is very painful especially when you have to choose between your spouse and your child or your parent and your child or one child from another child. >> Excruciating very very painful choices to make. >> Excruciating. >> I just would ask at the end of the day if you if you if it wasn't personal to you, if it was something you saw in someone else's family, how would you expect them to react? Would you think it's okay for abuse to just be allowed to continue? If yeah, then maybe you have moral issues. It's not easy to stand up for victims. And and I I know that for most of my family, they haven't. And unfortunately, these people are still around children and they're probably still abusing. And I don't feel like there's anything in my power to do. But what was in my power is to tell everybody in my surroundings which they already knew cuz nobody was surprised and still nothing was done. >> Yeah. >> It's a sad fact. It is one sad fact to finalize. >> Yeah. >> What are some unexpected gifts and strengths that you found in yourself that made you who you are today? Oh, I like this question. Um, I can think of a couple. I think my my stubbornness definitely served me well. As much as there were times that I was so angry at myself for being so stubborn, it's the reason why I'm still here. >> And I I'm grateful for that. I also feel like I got a very deep understanding to the human psyche and it fascinates me. It's something that really intrigues me when I when I understand how people work and why they work that way. Um, and the interesting thing is that I on another note that I I think that I have a way of articulating things that most people don't want to, but when I'm in my triggered place, there are no words. So, that's an interesting dynamic of not having words and then being so articulate once it's a processed um thing. And really, I'm I'm grateful for being able to shine my light in this world and and bring light to such a dark topic that most don't want to talk about. >> Yeah. >> Not not survivors and not just people. It's hard. It's hard to talk about when your family betrays you so deeply. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, and I'm sorry that this happened to you. >> Thank you. You are a gift to the world. >> Thank you. >> What we heard today uh is testimony of survival. What we heard today is testimony of the emis of the truth and unimaginable strength and courage. >> Thank you. >> It's a reminder for every victim out there to know that you're not alone. >> Your pain is real and healing is possible. You didn't just speak for yourself. What you did today is you spoke up for generations of voices that were not heard and that needed to be heard. All I can say is stay strong. Stay open. I'm sure that someone out there that's listening to this will say to you, you are my hero. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for sharing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for giving me your time. >> Yeah. Thank you for having me. >> Thank