How We Learned to Talk So the Other Would Listen, Rabbi Shlomo MS, LCPC & Rivka Slatkin

Hi everybody, welcome to tonight's program with coach Manak Bernfeld on July 6th, 2025. Tonight's share 236. I want to first start off saying that this platform is growing and we're in our sixth year already. We've had Rabbi Zlatin before so honored to have him back this time with a surprise guest. And hopefully tonight will be a very beautiful program and we'll have a open conversation and place to talk through a lot of important. If for anybody who wants to join our WhatsApp chats, please WhatsApp us at 7323141710. That's 732314710. I will send you the community link and also you can go to manbur.com and sign up by the website for all the emails and the replays and all the people that are coming on to coach. All the people that are watching the replay of this um please click on the like button and the subscribe button. every week post the videos you get notified and thank you to all the advertising sponsors Lakewood Scoop here in Lakewood Ellen Ariel from 5town central and from JCN the Jewish content network always promoting us on all digital Jewish platforms again if anybody's here the first time every Sunday night at 9:00 p.m. the zoom ID we have different topics different therapists and next week is going to be shabas July 13th and we we will not have a program shamas and then following that we're going to have July 20th mashm danil usher kleman and the topic will be confirmed and the following week July 27th that's the Sunday before tishabove going to have the honor of having Rabbi Charlie Harari again who comes on seems like every error of tishabove to really have it out to get us in the tishabove mode so we We have a pretty full agenda. Hope to see everybody and please join us every week. Again, tonight sharers 236. And now we're going to turn to coach. Why this waited for 236? You ready? Mrs. Lin, you ready? This is the reason why you have to wait till this week. Number 236. How we learned to talk so the other would listen. Finding connection in the middle of conflict. If one realizes that the world is completely controlled by Hashem by every each way, nobody can do bad to him and everything is from directly from Hashem. There will be no conflict which leads us up tonight for tonight's gatri of 236. Hashem Hashem will be with us. Once we realize that there will be no conflict and we can speak to at peace with with each other at ease. Okay, we're going to turn over to coach. Coach, Sunday night, the middle of the zoomer, the middle of the summer. What are we doing here? What's the next topic? What are we talking about? Welcome everyone. Welcome to another coach. Let's get real with coach number 236 with a lot of dish. And we're back with a uh discussion about shalias. We've had many shalas discussions. We've had with us. In the past, we discussed IMAG and there's always room for more. So, here we are. We always d to have but without shalom without peace in the house very hard to have whether it's where other areas in life are affected by the energy by the feeling of what's going on in the house. So I'm just coming up with a few questions that before we start the program just to think what's your definition of sha bias what's your definition of peace I would ask people what's the image that they have in mind that they think that's perfect that's what a marriage should look like supposed to look like maybe like your parents maybe not like your parents your neighbors What's some people have that imaginary perfect picture and that always haunts them because they're never there and they're trying to figure out when and uh if only maybe pointing fingers but let's stop for a moment. Not always easy to listen to these concepts and um to see what's really going on by me in my home, my relationships, relationship with myself, with my spouse. So, it's a a moment. Let's take a moment to evaluate what does it look like? How much of it is it me and how much of it is it my spouse? When do I point fingers and uh say when they? If only they would. If only they would. What? You finish the sentence. If only they would listen. If only they would understand me. If only they could be normal. If they can just clean after themselves. What's that if only that you have that's just in the way of getting you to a place where you can feel peace? And again, everybody has a different list. So really to be honest, be honest with yourself. What's going on? Am I pointing fingers? And uh let's point fingers to ourselves. See what which part of it do I have to do with this? When what's something small that I can do that will make a difference? And if you can't come up with anything because you're perfect, I guess we'll talk tonight to see what's going on. But it's a conversation not always easy but I think uh you know with with Reb and Rebertson Latkin who do this this is what you do meet other couples and I'm sure practice the IMO therapy and many people have mentioned that they see results and we would love to hear more about it and uh another good question would be where can't it work? Does it always work? Or maybe there are situations where in my marriage it probably won't make a difference. So should help everyone to be able to hear what they need in a way that they can accept and implement and see a change. Beautiful opening. Okay, let's read uh Schlomin's bio from last time. I have it. And if anything changed, you let me know. If you got any more certifications or something, you know, let me know. Ladkin, MSLCPC, a certified IMAGO relationship therapist, adv advanced clinician and certified workshop presenter together with his wife Rifka. Oh, see you even last time you were on. They founded the marriage rest uh stationation project, a global initiative to help keep couples together and happy. Out of concern for the global breakdown of relationships and families, Repres Lackin made it his mission to help save marriages in two days by way of incent intensive marriage retreats. He also created an online marriage school for self-guided programs, an affordable solution to quality marriage help. For more information, you go to his website, right, the marriage restoration project. What's the website? marriage restorationpro.com. We'll post on the chat. So, it's an honor to have you back this time. you brought your wife and um revers it up. Thank you so much. It's great to be here again. Um second, I just want to read the tonight's topic the way we named it is how we learn to talk so the other would listen. Finding connection in middle of conflict. Sorry, open it up. Great. Thank you so much. It's great being here. So, we'll start off just a little a few a few points and then I'm very curious to hear everyone's questions, you know. what coach Makim was saying before about how much of this is really about the other person, how much of it is really about myself, how much of my challenges and my relationships are about me, about my partner, my wife, my husband, and how much about about me. I think it's a hard thing for people to deal with. I think that when when people get married, they have an image of what relationships are supposed to be. It's usually a positive thing. Nobody thinks that they're going to have struggles. Nobody wants to hear that in the in the honeymoon stage. Um I remember when we were Chevles and people were telling us, you know, marriage is hard and you're going to fight and we're just like, no, we we know how to communicate. We're really good at communicating. And we were we were very good at communicating when we would talk about how much we liked each other and and positive things or even when we talked about our own personal challenges like with other issues that weren't related to us. But once we started having our own fights between us, it wasn't we weren't such good communicators. And that got us to the point where we were we were a little bit disillusioned. We kind of thought like what is this? What do we get ourselves into? Is this really the relationship that we thought we were supposed to be in? Is this really what marriage is supposed to be like? And I think that's a challenge that everyone faces to some degree or another. And it can be very difficult. And people can have just uh I would say your like normal everyday run-of-the-mill conflict which can be painful. And people can have some, you know, very volatile relationships, very volatile conflict. Um, and it's it's very hard to be able to understand how I'm in the situation that I'm in and how things could get any better. And the temptation is to focus when we're in pain is to focus on the other to blame the other person. you're causing my pain. Right? And what we learn and what we learn with couples is that we need to think deeper. We need to look deeper to understand that what is the me message that I'm getting here in this conflict? What is the message? What is the opportunity that you know that we said the introduction of the withra that that Hashem is sending to me in this moment to be able to realize that I'm in the right place where I need to be and I'm not going to give away all all the secrets of of a we talked about some of it before but and we'll probably continue talking about it but it's all about getting conscious about understanding with why I'm being bothered why I'm being triggered and instead of focusing on the other person taking responsibility and ownership and when I can take ownership it's almost I'm really realizing that this is Hashem is sending me this opportunity the reason that I'm having conflict with my spouse it's an opportunity for me to understand what I need to do to work on myself to improve myself to deal with my own baggage to become a better person and when I can put that focus on myself then a lot of times the conflict goes away because that message that's being sent doesn't need to rearing its ugly head because I got the message. And that's something that we started to begin experiencing. It's it's a very hard thing to do. But as you wake up and you learn about it and you understand it and you take ownership uh it g you not only see it as you know you know a liability but you actually see it as a really an opportunity a braha really that's coming for each individual to be able to work on what they need to do to actualize themselves and to heal themselves from their own baggage that they bring to the relationship. One of the things that makes it hard, we're talking about listening tonight, right? How do you listen? How to learn to talk so the other will listen and listen to the other will talk. To paraphrase the book, the hardest thing about listening to another person is to be able to kind of cross the bridge into the world of the other to remove the ego because the ego is so fragile. When the ego, when the person feels threatened, when a pe person feels like, "No, you're doing this to me, you're hurting me, you're you're criticizing me, you're not nice to me, automatically we feel defensive and we go into ourselves. We go into our own pain and then we need to justify. We need to come up with answers. We and we can't really hear what the other person's saying." And one of the challenges is, you know, when we're listening from the the left brain, the logic brain. So a lot of times the other person doesn't really make sense. I I don't even agree with you about the facts. Forget about your feelings. I can't even agree with you about the facts. So I'm caught up in trying to prove whether I'm right or wrong because I'm feeling threatened that it makes it hard for me to really cross the bridge. That's that's the left brain. We know the left brain and is also left brain is called bina. Bina is also a place of of den and it's a place of judgment. So I hear what the other person's saying. I'm trying to discern whether it's right or wrong. I'm dealing with the facts. I'm not able to really hear you and I not only I'm not able to hear you. I don't really want to hear you. I'm judging you. I think there's something wrong with you. I think you're the problem. What we're trying to do is to really leave that behind and get to what we call curiosity. To be able to make space for someone else. The relationship is not about you and an and your spouse is an extension of you. It's about making space for another person. And what that means is being able to listen to somebody is painful as it can be. And I remember when we when we did this work together in the beginning and we would start hearing things and we would share like let's say our frustration in in the magial process and one of us just had to be quiet and we couldn't respond and we had to listen and all of a sudden like our first instinct is like well that's not true and like I didn't do that and you know that's like where are you getting that from? Once we really learned how to leave oursel behind for for that moment, cross the bridge into the world of the other and kind of get into our right brain into what I call the brain. The right brain isma is it's what is this? It's it's a place of curiosity. H I'm wondering why like to me it doesn't make sense why you feel that way about me or that I did this. But I want to get curious about where you're coming from. I want to really not judge you, but I want to hear why you feel that way. And when we listen long enough, we said everyone makes sense. When we really can get curious enough to understand where the other person's coming from, then the self evaporates for that moment and we can really be in the in this presence of another person and that's where we can have a new ability to to connect. So again it's taking oursel beh putting ourel aside and making space for someone else in the relationship is really the really the key and when it's coming from again instead of judgment is coming from a place of curiosity that really makes space for another person in the relationship and when you make space for another person you make space forina right that's you have to have a space between if I'm taking up all the space there's no space no space for my wife there's no space for the either there. Making a space for another person is allowing that divine presence to rest in the relationship and to be able to create peace because you're making space for an other. And it's really hard and we think just one other anecdote about this. You know, we can see this in general in society. Um people just have people are very opinionated. Like look in the world of politics, people have their viewpoints about things and people are not able to hear where the other person's coming from. So, it's kind of like it's all about I'm feeling very threatened by you. If I'm feeling threatened by you, I can't really listen to you. I can't hear where you're coming from. I'm not really interested to hear your perspective. But if I can get curious and and instead of being afraid that you could have a different way of looking at things to really hear where you're coming from, I can make sense. I don't have to agree with you. And this is a big point here. I'm not saying that, you know, shalom is not about agreeing. You don't have to agree with your spouse. But we're asking you to to make space for another reality that you can validate that another person's feelings and thoughts and experiences are equally as valid as yours. And if you can really understand and come from compassion and you hear the big picture, it makes total sense why they feel the way they do. Even if you have another perspective, it's so interesting working with couples where we can see that two people both make sense about the same issue. Even though they're diametrically opposed, they feel very different about it. But knowing one's person's perspective and their story and their childhood story and the other person's perspective in their story, both people can make sense. It's kind of it's like you're you're allowing to create space for both people. And that can only be done with when when there's curiosity, when it's when you have when you're able to see the gray, when it's not this way or that way, black or white. And I think that's very hard for us to do because we see the world from a place of separateness. And that's the illusion of this world, physical world. You know, it's just like we can't see Hashem either. We can't feel Hashem's presence because Hashem created a world where he conceals himself, where we can't experience that. The truth is that everything is one. But from our perspective, it's not that way. So, we see separateness. And what we're trying to do is to be able to get go beyond that to go beyond the illusion of separateness in everything in life and in relationships and make space for that the fact that there can be a a oneness and connection and when we can do that and really be present with the other person and hold that reality it really changes everything. Okay, beautiful and beautiful opening. What we're going to do is we're going to take a poll now from everybody and then we're going to get into questions. Okay, start with a three question poll. Here we go. Everybody answer to the best of your ability. First question. When you're hurt by someone close to you, what is your first instinct? Four options. A, completely withdraw. Withdraw completely. B, lash out in anger. C, try to fix it quickly. Or D, seek support from others. Second question. In your marriage, how comfortable do you feel discussing topics that bring up guilt or shame? A very comfortable, B somewhat comfortable, D not comfortable at all. Or fourth option, I avoid these conversations altogether. Third question, do you believe a marriage can heal from deep betrayals such as infidelity? Four options. Yes, with hard work and guidance. B, maybe, but it's very difficult. C, no, betrayal ends trust forever. Or D, I'm not sure. Okay. What everybody, while everybody answer the polls, tonight is an open conversation. We could discuss Slath. And as I always say when watch, obviously it's not for you. It's obviously for your neighbor. So when you ask the question, you don't have to preface So we all understand that and you have the the the opportunity here to have Rab Schlommo and his wife that deal with this day night and they have programs and they help a lot of people. So ask the questions, get clarity while you while you're here. Okay, another 5 seconds on the polls and then we're going to share the answers with everybody and then we'll jump into live questions. We'll start off first with a live question. Anybody else who wants to ask a live question, please text us partner here and remember that live questions go first. Okay, here we go. First question, when you're hurt by someone close to you, what's your first instinct? 51% of the people, the number one answer is withdrawal completely. 17% lash at anger. 11% try to fix it quickly. 22% seek support from others. So, by far, it seems like most people when they get hurt by somebody, they right away run into protect mode and withdraw mode. Rabbi Mrs. any comment on that? I was just curious if there's a way to know how many men versus women are on this call. Not that like we're stereotyping, but I'm just curious if there's a way to know that. I'm going to I'm going to tell you an estimate of about 60 65% woman. Really? Let me just I guess Are you looking at the names? No, just I'm saying from my years of experience. Okay. Interesting. The name doesn't mean anything. People sign on. They could be husband or wife. It could be any name, right? That's true. Okay, let's go to the second question. In your marriage, how comfortable do you feel discussing topics that bring up guilt or shame? You have a pretty much a three-way tie over here. Only 8% are very very comfortable. 31% are somewhat comfortable. 28% are not comfortable at all. And 33% I avoid these conversation these conversations altogether. So basically more on the lower end. people are uncomfortable discussing things of guilt and shame in a marriage with their spouse. The third poll, do you believe marriage can heal from from deep betrayal such as infidelity? 18% of people said yes with hard work. 40% maybe but very difficult. 20% no betrayal ends trust forever. 20 21% I'm not sure. Okay. Any comment on any of these polls? How how deep do you want us to go into it? I mean I could comment on your It's your discretion. Whatever whatever you guys want each I we could comment we can start off we can start off with a live question if you want. Whenever you want we can comment on we can comment on each well briefly first. Yeah briefly. Um you want to Yeah. So the first one I know in Iago um we talk a lot about turtles and hail storms or maximizers and minimizers. So here's the story that we like to tell. Once upon a time there was a turtle crossing the road minding his own business and this hail storm, this big raincloud saw him and she wanted his attention. So she started pounding some hail on his shell and he was like very taken aback. So he just kind of kept crossing the road, not not saying anything, not paying attention. And she really wanted to get his attention. So she just kept pounding her hail even louder and louder. And he got more and more scared and more and more fearful and just, you know, ran across the road as fast as he could and went into his shell completely. And at the end, she just kept raining hail on him and then he just became a snapping turtle cuz he was so, you know, out of sorts. But we find in a marriage typically there's one turtle and there's one hailtorm. Um, one maximizer, one minimizer. Sometimes there's two turtles. We find a lot. But, you know, the the hailtorm is somebody who really needs to talk to others, get out their feelings. They're very much a people person. They lash out typically in anger, want to talk about things, want to fix it quickly. And the turtle needs more time. They are really uncomfortable with showing up. And it's really unsafe for them. And what's interesting is, you know, the more the turtle is unsafe by going into his shell, the more unsafe the hail stom feels. So, she gets louder and louder. And it's not always man or woman. So, it can be a man that's a hailtorm and a woman that's a turtle. So, um I'd be curious if the people that filled out this poll did it with their spouse or their spouse would have the opposite answer. Um because a lot of times when people hear that story, they're like, "Oh my gosh, you mean my spouse isn't just this like borderline narcissist?" Like they're just like all the labels that people give. Yeah. They're like, "This is normal." And and we're like, "Yeah, we see this all the time. and maximizers and minimizers but the people have that most bad again I know there's extremes and there are people that have you know real diagnoses but a lot of the time what we find is that people have u people's bad behavior is really because they're not feeling safe and then so they're either going to as said they're either going to minimize their energy and freeze or submit like the turtle or they're going to maximize they're going to outward that big loud energy so in and and and we provoke the opposite of we want So basically what we want so basically it's going to be a never- ending cycle until we stop stop it. Um, so that's what we teach couples how to be able to communicate and stop the react to stop the reactivity so that you don't need to protect yourself anymore because you're no longer in danger. And that's a hard thing but so that's number one. That's number one. And then if you regarding just I just want to mention one other thing like the label that you gave is that at the end of the day men are they do have those tendencies a lot and women also have the emotional tendencies. So when they're feeling unsafe, those tendencies come out so much more. So they act more emotionally unstable, more borderlineish to women because they are emotional beings. And when they feel not safe, they're going to act emotionally more disregulated than a man. A man is going to be more controlling. That's that's a men's tea. In general, are you talking in general? General. Yeah. It's not always not always that way. It's not always Yeah. Sometimes it's the opposite. Um, but I mean I would say it's usually more men are the the minimizers and women are the maximizers. But we've definitely seen women that are complete turtles, men that are huge hail storms and until this reactive cycle breaks. It just keeps continuing. It's also based on your ch it's based on your adaptation. This is a this is how you protected yourself growing up. So part of it maybe you have more natia because of gender maybe but and socialization but it's also because of it's also because of your childhood experience. So like if you're if you're the middle child and like you were you know neglected like maybe you needed to get a lot of you try to get attention so you made a lot of noise whereas maybe if you lived in a home that was really volatile maybe you needed to just like go to your room and disappear. So a lot of this is what got us safe growing up. problem is what gets us safe growing up doesn't usually does the opposite in a marriage and we usually are attracted to somebody who is the opposite which if you have two people that are both like grow up in a place where they ran to the room so anytime there would be a conflict they would just both shut down. Yeah. A lot of times sometimes that and sometimes one person uh assumes the the role of the the opposite just to balance it out. So even if like both people are kind of retreat, one person is like super a super turtle. Okay. Do you want to go to the next question or you want to go to the question? Yeah. So the second one I think is similar but maybe you have a different Yeah. someone because whether it's guilt or shame or any difficult topics, it's if you can feel safe with your spouse, then you can bring up talk about anything because you know they they're going to listen to you, they're not going to judge you, they're not going to shame you, that you can really be able to feel open up. And I think that's that's the same the same kind of dynamic. I mean, usually the person who is the same person who withdraws uh and shuts down is also the same one who doesn't want to talk because they don't feel safe to open up because if they open up, their spouse is going to bite their head off. So, it's easier just not to say anything. So, whether whether it's opening up or whether it's responding, they're not going to say anything. So, again, it's all about learning how to feel safe to be able to bring it up. And you know, once you do that, I mean, I remember like as a as the turtle, um, I mean, I still tend to feel like more reluctant to bring up things like I have to make sure it's a good time, but it's a lot I felt much more comfortable than maybe like let's say in the beginning of our marriage before we learned these these skills like to be able to say to share anything. Um, that's difficult. So, but really why uh yeah, because I was afraid and it's it's part of like Yeah, it's a story that we make up in our mind also that that it's not safe. A lot of people are just listening, they're still before and they can't believe they'll ever get to a place with their spouse where they'll be able to share and be vulnerable because they've tried a few times and like you said, bit off their head and never again. Talking about trauma, talking about now when they come into your office, how long does it take and if their spouse is not ready, you know, it's very hard to get them back to a place where they can feel safe. where they can share and the other one will listen. I mean, we have couples all the time, they're like, "We've been to nine therapists. How is this going to be any different?" And within the first day, usually by the end of the first day, they're like, "This is completely different." Because of the structure, like Schlommo doesn't allow yelling and screaming and talking the same way you would talk at home in his office. It's a completely different way of talking. it's more scripted and structured and they have to follow that like that way of talking and even though it might be a little bit awkward at first after a little while they're like wow like I can I can speak and be heard and it helps because he's there to make sure that it's safe of course but we definitely and it makes sense if people have gone before to therapy or tried before it makes sense that they really wouldn't want to do this and put themselves out there to be vulnerable like that makesense sense um just happens to be this is different once once it's structured and you have to read off a script then people are like oh all the emotions are out and like what do I say now it becomes I I hear what you're saying can make it easier but other people are like this is not a relationship right well they're definitely emot I I guide them but it's definitely believe me people definitely are emotional they don't like check their emotions at the door but the key is that the person who's listening is is not responding. They're we can talk more about this later, but mirroring back. They're repeating back what's being said. They're being coached to be able to mirror back in a way that shows that they really get it. And that helps the person feel heard. And on the one hand, some people might fight against they feel this is awkward. It's not normal. But on the other hand, it's much more effective than what they're doing till now. Right. And the person, it's interesting. I had um I was doing a I I do I'm on the faculty of IMAGO so we train therapists and coaches to become Mago therapists and educators and we had a in one of our trainings last week we had someone bring one of their videos. So they were showing a couple they're working with a very difficult couple and the guy was like he he's like he does not like it. He does not like doing this whole process. because he thinks it's kind of hokey, but he was doing it. And at the end, the the person who is the therapist, she asked them on the video like, "Okay, so what was it like for you?" It's like, I just, you know, I don't think it was like anything. And she's like, "I really feel like you I really feel like you got me. Like, I really feel hurt. Like, I really feel better." So whether or not he the guy who was listening felt it was being helpful or thought it was strange, the person who was sharing felt better and felt more connected to him. His wife felt more connected to him. And I think that ultimately we all need to really be able to feel heard and safe to be able to feel heard and to open up and share. And it's so powerful when people do it that it's like m we had one other thing just some therapist said um on a call the other day she's like I just practiced it on my own and I had my two couples doing it and they it was like magic like they both calm down they both felt heard and it was just made all the difference. So it really does work. Yeah it is different though. So let's go to live question. I'm gonna go to live question if that's okay. Okay. What? Live questions. I'm going to jump into a live question. It's fine. Yeah. One second. wait for a few more seconds. I think they're just trying to tell me that you go to the next question till I get this person. One second. Okay. Yeah. So, here's a question that was sent in. My husband and I often get stuck in little disagreements and then it turns into big big arguments. It could be about chores, kids, bedtime, but it escalates so quickly. What does this Why does this happen? How can we stop these small things from becoming major conflicts? You have to unmute. Okay, there we are. Did you finish the question? Yeah. Should I read it again? No, it's good. So, the question is, how do you get from you know these little conflicts? Why do they become big conflicts and what can you do about it? Right. So, again, it's not it's very easy for us to get caught up in the content, meaning the topic at hand, what we're arguing about, but it's really much more than that. The whole idea of communication also it's also much more than that. We cannot not communicate. That's how we interact with another person through speech. That's how we express ourselves. But really it's about it's something more holistic. It's about creating it's it's about the tension that the couple's experiencing. So whether it's arguing about uh leaving your socks on the floor, whether it's arguing about something that's a a really big issue, it comes down to the fact that there there is again the same principle of being unsafe. When we're feeling unsafe, we're not talking about in a way where we can feel heard, we get reactive and then that's where we're spending all of our energy focusing on ourselves, defending ourselves, and then the spouse becomes the enemy and then it just ups the ante and that you can throw in the kitchen sink and all the other uh complaints that you have about each other. Uh and that is why it's so critical that you know when we think about let's just you know fix this issue about putting the dishes in the sink or fix this issue about kids going to bed on time that's not really the issue. It's about overall how does this couple interact? How do they learn know how to communicate? How do they make it safe for each other? When they do that then anything that they deal with can be dealt with. I think yeah it's it's like a temperature of their connection. So, I notice like if we're having a lot of little bickerings, it's it makes me think, okay, have we been connected lately? Like, have we spent any positive have we infused any positivity in our relationship? It's like a bank account. If you just keep withdrawing from the bank account, you're going to have an overdraft. So, you have to have the deposits. So, has there been any connection time or is it just all these little fights? You have to add the deposits. So that way when there is a conflict and it withdraws, it's not going to go into overdraft. So then where do we start? So it's even before conversation, even before or open communication, it's really the relationship. How do I feel? Do I spend time with my spouse? Yeah. Yeah. Infusing the POS. It's like you know there's the two way like so sra and acetto like you can focus on either one but maybe in this case infusing more good will give you the balance to withdraw when times are harder having that having that connection and then learning how to talk about it learning how to talk about the little things so they don't become big things if you can talk about it and feel heard in instead of just arguing with each other well that's not true I don't do that and uh well it's really your fault then if they don't know how to have that conversation about something little, then it's just going to escalate into to bigger things. Mhm. Let's go to the next question over here. Again, it's an interesting question, but it's, you know, any question could really Okay, we're struggling with male infertility factor. Uh, my husband feels so guilty about it. Like he got me stuck in a situation. Even though I always assure him it's not his fault, but because he feels so much guilt and shame, I feel like I can't share my own pain with him. It ends up causing conflict and we both feel alone. How do we communicate about such painful topics without making each other feel worse? So more to globalize the question is like when a spouse is part of let's say the husband doesn't have pronouncer, right? So she does not upset at the husband. She knows she's trying, but he's not making enough money, but she's still in pain about it because she can't buy things she needs. So, how could you do how could you have that conversation when it's you could normally share, but because the other person is a factor in it, it's difficult to share, right? Yeah. I mean, it is very difficult to to be able to hear things that are very raw like like some of the things that you mentioned. And as we were saying in the beginning, that's that's what we that's why it's really important to be able to realize when one person's sharing, it's about their experience. It's not about it's not about us. Meaning, as much as we think it's about us, it's really more about them. And when we can realize that, we can get again to that place of curiosity. I want to hear more about that, why that's bothering them. And I can understand it. I can hold both realities. I can realize, yes, I'm doing this or that and it's contributing to this. And I can also understand why they feel that way. And I don't have to take it personally or feel bad about it because I know that it's more about their emotional experience and their pain than what I'm doing or not doing. So, can she ask her husband like, you know, there's something I want to talk about with you? When would be a good time? And and when I say something, I don't need you to feel bad or guilty. I just want you to repeat what I'm saying and just hear what I'm saying. I mean, it might be hard to do it on their own, but just Oh, you can also like preface it by say like, I know how hard you're working. That's the the pronounce thing like I know how hard you're working and trying to find a job and I don't want to make you feel bad and I just want it know if you would be able to come over just, you know, to hear hear where I'm coming from, just my feelings that I'm struggling with. uh not to make you feel bad, but just to so I can express it because I'm having a hard time. And I don't need you to respond. I don't need you to fix it. I don't need you to do anything. I just want you to listen. And if you can do that, then that takes the the I think that takes the burden off the person who's listening because a lot of people feel like, "Oh, now I have I either have to defend myself or I have to fix the problem or I have to, you know, make you feel better." and to reassure you don't have to do anything. I just want you to be present with me. And that's really what it's all about again being fully present with the other person without any agenda. It sounds it sounds uh simple being present. We've had a lot of discussions not so easy being present with yourself. now being present with your spouse and especially when they put on the table things you do not want to look at and and it's you know if I'm coming to your office it would be more like you know very structured but I'm sure for many people to get to a place where their spouse should be able to listen because they're used it's they're at fault or it's about them it's about the relationship it's about what's going on and you want to talk about it I don't want to hear about it we've tried so many times what's it going to help Well, they you could also validate like I realize when I've spoken about this before, I've blamed you. I validate you and I've shamed you and I own that and I know I haven't showed up as the best wife or husband I can be. And now I found an approach. I I would love to try it and share with you in a way where I am going to take more responsibility and make this as safe as possible for you. would you be willing to try this and to listen you know to what I have to say owning that in the past it has not been safe and you and that you understand why they may not want to listen or engage in the process again right so the person who's sharing it's not just about the person who's listening to not respond the person who's sharing has to do it in a way that the other person can receive it so eye statements taking ownership of their feelings but you know talking about what they're feeling even though it might be hard to hear but one thing that we teach couples is that if it's hysterical, it's historical. If something really bothers a person, if then there's something deeper there, it's coming from some something deeper. So, or we call the 9010 rule. So it's if I hear you know when we had like uh some of our you know famous uh conflicts over the years when I realize okay yeah 10% I did I did such and such and I triggered you I set you off but it's 90% about the reason that you're getting so upset about it. It's more about your story than about what I did or didn't do. But you don't say that. No you don't say that. No, but no, but well but well but well but well but well but well but well but well but well but well but when I when I think that then I realize okay I can actually get out of myself and hear what you're saying as opposed to if I think it's about me then I go right into defensive mode. So if a person can realize that that the person who's listening in that in this case if they can realize that even about these difficult things yes this is the reality I you know the you know I'm I am struggling with infertility or this or whatever it is but when I'm listening to what you have to say it's more about the spouse's feelings and where they're coming from and whatever story that's related to that maybe they have some you know a lot of times people have childhood issues related to these these things that get provoke a a disproportionate reaction, let's say, and to be able to listen with care and with empathy, compassion, and to hear where the other person's coming from. But but it is about me. It's it's very hard. It is about me. I've I can't hold down a job. I've tried so many things. I I I can't open my mouth. I can't It's about me. And now you're going to talk about the conver you're going to put the conversation on the table. It's about her reaction. It's her reaction to it. It's her feelings about it. That's not That's about her, not about him. You're talking about it. It's, you know, it's all I'm saying, how do we disconnect? You wouldn't be such a loser. You wouldn't have these problems. Say that. I hear the concept. I hear your concept, but how do we get there? It's It's really hard to There's a lot of preparation involved into having one of these dialogues. It's not just like, "Hey, right now, let's have a conversation." Like, you almost need to do like hakana and you have to Yeah. I mean tell us tell us a little bit what you do with the couple before maybe deep breathing what' you say some relaxation deep breathing trauma work well so the first the first part is first first of all having these really big discussions like okay maybe I would do it now I've been doing this for 20 years but like I would say someone who's like starting off you know or even in some of our like our group workshops we don't have people talk about don't talk about the 10 out of And the first time you do this, like you have to get your feet wet. You have to learn how to talk about the the day-to-day chores and annoyances before you can talk about the number one issue, but I've been doing this long enough that, you know, doesn't really phase me so much, but it's still hard for couples. So, first of all, you have to set you have to make an an appointment. You have to make sure it's a good time. So, they're in the office, but even at home, if they're doing this on their own to make sure that both people are are really fully present, that they're or that it's a good time. Meaning, you have to get permission. You can't just say, "Hey, I want to talk to you right now about uh you know, your infertility. Uh I'm really angry about about it. I think you're horrible and you know, ruined my life." You know, it has to be it's it's it's very, you know, more like a gentle appointment. Are you available? I want to share something with you. Then I have and depending on how reactive the couple is. And you start with the appreciation. I mean, sorry, even before that. I mean, even before that in the sessions, we start with appreciation. So, we're already sharing something positive and connecting, having eye contact, prolonged eye contact, having a moment to connect and really kind of w with each other. That that's that's first. Yeah. And you have them breathe and you do sometimes a little relaxation. I got once we do once we have the appointment and once she's not in the office, I'm doing this. Yeah. Um so on once we have they make the appointment then I have them some I give them like a vis visualization just imagining themselves kind of whatever crossing the bridge into the world of the other trying to get safe taking a few deep breaths whatever they need need to do and some some couples it will take take longer just to get them centered get get them get them regulated and really be able to kind of be calm as best as they can and then it's a slow process. So, one person shares. I wouldn't even have them have like they're not sharing for like 10 minutes and then the person has to repeat back. It's like they share a few sentences, they pause, the other person, what I heard you say is, you know, when I lost my job, um, it really was difficult for you, you know, is did I get you? Is there more? It's a very slow process. So, it helps people both calm down and regulate their brain. Uh, sometimes couples hold hands with each other. They're making eye contact. uh it's a connected exercise. So people people become extremely calm when they're and even when they're talking about difficult topics. Now it doesn't always work. Not meaning some couples need a little bit more coaching. Some couples are going to be more reactive. So I mean that's the job of what I'm what I do. It's not just like someone asked me like oh you just like it must be boring for you. You know you just you have a script and people just follow. I said that's not uh it's not boring because people don't just follow it all the time. So you have to coach them and to make them feel safe and what and sometimes people go off off the rails and you have to bring them back and calm them down and I mean that's that's what we're trying to do. So we're really doing the best to get them the place of being present before and when they're having that conversation. So it's more about so it's more about the experience that they're having with each other than the actual content of what they're even talking about. It's that experience of safe connection and that's what's most reparative. Okay, let's go to the live question. Okay, hi, how are you? Um, can you explain more in detail how trauma from childhood affects the marriage relationship? And what should someone do if he's not yet married? So, how does trauma affect the marriage relationship? And then if someone's not yet married, what did they do about their tra their trauma? Yes. Okay. So in the the word imago means image and the theory is that we have an unconscious image of our ideal partner. And the reason why we choose our spouse, we have a lot of good conscious reasons. They might have a good personality. Uh they had fun with them. But there's deeper reasons. And according to the theory is that you're looking for someone who is a who is a combination a composite of the positive and negative characteristics of your parents. So you're actually looking for someone who's going to I don't want to say sounds a little retraumatize you meaning they're going to feel very familiar. They have the potential to retraumatize you but they also have the potential to heal you. So the childhood trauma and baggage that everyone brings is def definitely uh shows up in the room within the relationship and if it's not if it's not dealt with the couple remains locked in we call the power struggle. If it is dealt with and people become conscious of why their spouse is pushing their buttons, then they realize we create what we call the the conscious marriage, real love to really realize that the reason why it bothers me so much when you do this is it triggers it reminds me of what my mother or father did to me growing up. And what that does is that helps me be able to have more free choice and be more intentional about how I respond instead of react. And it also helps the the other spouse have more compassion because they realize instead of feeling it's about about them, you're criticizing them for what they're doing to you, it's really about your reaction to the childhood. So, it takes it away from them. Now, trauma is a big word. Um, you know, sometimes people kind of I don't want to say use it quite a bit. Everybody has a degree of we call it child unmet need childhood we call it unmet needs or childhood wounds. Some people really have really traumatic experiences. Uh, and that that can be even more challenging. But everybody has an from their experience. Um, we call it, you know, some type of childhood baggage that would bring to the relationship. And some people like have a hard time with this because like, well, I had a good childhood. My parents were great. I don't want to say anything bad about my parents. It's not even it's not that your parents were horrible people. Your parents did the best job they could with best stuff they could with the tools they had. But when you're dealing with our busy lives, it's not always possible to be fully attuned to every child, to give every child what they need. So they're going to be things that you as a child may have felt that you didn't get. So for example, let's say your parents were never home. They were very busy. They they had very important jobs. So as an adult, you understand, yeah, my child, my father was a very important doctor and I understand why he was never home. So I have no problems with him. But as a child you may have felt like I really wish my father was here. So it's it doesn't contradict. So it's it's the experience that we had again it's the subjective even the subjective realities a lot of the time it's a story that we made up in our mind what made an impression on us that we take with us and looking for that ideal partner and we are going to deal with that and the good news is that if we can work through it and become conscious of it we can actually heal together in the context of relationship and that's why this work is so powerful. I'm gonna pause with that. I didn't answer the second question. I see also a lot of people that are dating or even before they start, they say, "I need to first heal myself before I enter into a relationship." And I'm seeing that a lot even in the secular world. And I think our we pick up a lot um from the world around us. And I just think that that is maybe a little misguided because there isn't a way to really fix yourself completely at all beforehand because we were born in relationship to our mother. We were wounded in relationship and hurt by other people and ultimately we heal through relationship. So there isn't going to be a time where you're like I'm there and now I can date. Because even if you think you're really evolved, once you start dating and you commit, you're going to have problems with your with the person that you pick. And it's not because um you haven't done the selfwork. It's because that's just how relationships are. And even if you've done the selfwork, I've had people say, "I thought I dealt with this already. I've been doing the therapy for years. Now I have to deal with this again. My childhood, I thought I was done with it." Right? It comes up again in different ways. Come until you really get to deal with it in the context of that relationship. So you it's sad but you're saying the truth but you're marrying somebody a little bit. It's the only way to really heal heal yourself. We do feel like the ultimate healing is through relationship. Now, you know, people can go to a therapist and that's sort of an artificial relationship and pay the therapist. And this is um a lot this is a big pet peeve of mine and I can say things that Schlommo can't say because he's a therapist and I'm not. But I really I really see this as a huge issue in our world. And like I just want to shout this from the rooftops. I see people struggling in relationships and then they each have their own therapist. And then they'll say, "Well, my therapist said that you are ex and well, I can't talk to you about our issues because my therapist and like they're both they both have a therapist. They're both working on the relationship with issue with other people. It's very messy and they would save a lot of time and a lot of money if they would actually work on the relationship together. They could each heal their own respective childhoods even doing the work together. At what point does um the therapy you at what point do you know that you're being ready to move on and start dating as opposed to you're not marrying someone for them to be able to heal you? You can't like put that burden on someone else. So how do you know when you what part of of going of marrying would be healing as opposed to actually needing to do self work beforehand? Where's the line between the two? Well, I think first of all, it's great that you have awareness. Like awareness is always the first step, right? And you have awareness that you're even wanting to work on yourself, and that's huge. And I think um we're all self-evolving. I mean, Schlommo and I were married 24 years. We're still working on ourselves. If you can learn how to have safe conversations, you can get through anything. So, no matter what comes up with the person, you know, you both have awareness, you talk about these things, and you learn how to have safe conversations. That will be like half the battle if not more. Only if they could have only if they could have conversation. I could have conversation ready because I went to therapy but I don't know if they could have conversations. Right. Right. I don't think anyone's ever I don't think anyone's ever fully fully ready. The question is then you know so how ready do you need how ready do you need to be? And that's really kind of a hard hardline. I think that if a person is, you know, if a person is functional and they're, you know, responsible and they're, you know, depending on what they're doing, um, and I think that that is and I think that is, uh, going to be helpful and and aware and and look and committed to do committed to growing and to realizing that uh, you know, it's an evolving process. It's not one I want to jump on to the next question if that's okay. Okay. Say hi, you're on. Hi, thank you so much. Um, I was just wondering, I'm actually single and not married if I have like a lot of like trauma and like really scared of getting married and all that. Like I texted Usher in the beginning like should I even be on this talk because I'm like so scared and then you started off like marriage whatever. I guess I'm just asking like how could we how could all singles like feel better about marriage because we're like a lot of us are scared. We scared you. Oh goodness. So um yeah, we should have probably thought of you in the beginning. It's the reason I the reason I say that is I I think that it helps people realize that the good news is it you will never find the perfect person that's going to make everything perfect. There's always going to be a challen. It doesn't have to be a nightmare, but it can there's always going to be challenges. So, you find someone who you want to work work together with. Um, it comes down to commitment. So, really like I mean I don't know how many bashers we have and all that good stuff, but once you make the decision and you commit like you can make it great. I mean, we love it. We love being married most of the time, but um but we do want couples to know like conflict will happen and you can get through it. There are ways you can get through it healthfully and then it doesn't have to be so scary. I think what's scary for what's what was scary for us is, you know, we had this whirlwind dating. We dated 12 times. We were so excited. Everything was perfect. We thought we would have like the perfect marriage. My parents are divorced, very reactive, volatile childhood. So, I thought like this is going to be it. I'm going to fix it and I'm going to have the perfect life. And what was scary for us was like what happened when we started. So, um, knowing that like conflict is inevitable, but you can get through it, then it doesn't have to be so scary as opposed to saying conflict means I'm in the wrong relationship. I made a mistake. Now I have to either suck it up or or get out of here. Yeah. Well, hopefully that helps. But I one more point is I found with singles that even people like singles that have been dating for a long time and you know people will say they have you know commitment if issues once they learn about the more they can learn about relationships and it's it helps them and it helps them be able to be more aware and and get closer to finding the right person. Thank you. So you recommend the imo for singles? Sure. Yeah. There's a whole workshop even for individuals. Yeah, there's a book. There's a book called Keeping the Love You Find, which is the book for singles. It might be a really helpful resource. Right. If someone like doesn't want to get married because it sounds so scary, that would probably be something to work on first, right? Yeah. I mean, it's it's helpful to understand what where that's coming from. Like why why is it so scary for me? Is it because I saw what I saw growing up? because I had some type of a traumatic experience seeing with friends. Where is that coming from? That would be to understand and be aware of that for sure. Thank you. Okay, let's go to the next live question. Hold on one second. Hi. Hi there. Thank you for taking my call and for speaking with us. So um we've been married over 30 years and very very challenging very traumatic backgrounds for both of us and we went to an AMA workshop early on and I really liked it. I really was hopeful. I actually read the book, you know, getting getting the love you want even before I was married and I was just so gung-ho. But the marriage was challenging and my husband did not go for being told what he should say. He did not go for that. He he just said I I can't just puppet out words. And so that was the end of that that you know he's not he's not on board. So um nothing else since then has helped. And do you have any first that my first question is do you have any comment on that? Like is there any twist or hope or something that you can say that can make somebody want, you know, be more open to to something like that. Um, yeah, that that's my first question. My second question is going to be about this healing that we have to do that the exact part that I need healed and the exact part that he needs healed from each other is the part that's most difficult for us to give to each other. That's one of the premises of Amago. And I'd like to just understand what do you do when the other one is not ready or able or willing to to help in that healing. Yeah, that makes sense. Great. Thank you for your question. So, um the first question was how to make someone actually open to doing the process. So, I you know I can't comment on the workshop that you went to and how it was explained. People explain it in different ways. people can receive it in different ways and people are people are resistant whether it's a mago or any type of therapy or work oneself people can be resistant um you know it's curious to understand what you know why bo why it bothers him I wouldn't ask him this but like you know why it bothers him so much to do to to do this why why can't he just follow the script if it makes if it makes you feel good makes you feel heard um so maybe he didn't understand and experience the true value of it to really appreciate why it could be helpful But it's hard for me to say. Uh, with that said, look, in situations, there are a lot of people that call us where they don't have a spouse who's who's willing to work work on things or at least not willing to go to therapy. So, there are things the more you can do on on your own to understand your own reactivity and be able to let go and to be more forgiving and to understand where the other person's coming from. It's I can't say it's easy. It would be much better if both people were doing it together. Um, but if a person's committed to being in their relationship and their spouse doesn't want to get help with them, then the only thing they can do is work on themselves and to do their best and not to see how they impact the other and to focus on being the safest person that you can be. So like I'd be curious like you know without going into too many details you know what year when did you do the workshop and then have you even though he wasn't interested have you focused on you know being the most safest partner you can be in your delivery and diffusing the reactivity you know like there's so much we we re I recommend people come to the workshop you know once a year because it's hard to remember everything that was jam-packed into the workshop so something like our video course would be really I think could be very helpful for you watching us in our fights. Uh there's like 16 of our fights in the course go getting through like really focusing on how could you show up as the safest person possible. And then the hope over time is the mirror neurons that people have when we watch somebody doing something, the other person will tend to copy it. So if you slow things down and you ask for appointments and you kind of mirror what he's saying when he's talking and validate him and empath, he might one day wake up and be like, "Oh, I really liked when she did that." So it's not just like you have to follow the script. And if it was taught to you that way, like that's kind of a mistake. I think it's a disservice to and sometimes it's hard to do in a group a group workshop. you know, when you're working with someone who's helping you p cater to your specific situation and it can make it a little bit more uh tailor made and user friendly. Yeah. Because we don't know what set him off. So anyways, the second question was um the thing that we need one of the you said one of the principles the thing that we need most from our spouse is the hardest for them to give and vice versa. Um the thing we know is and that's you know that's why that's why it makes it so easy I mean difficult because it would be easy if we could just say okay like here here's my uh here's what I need to heal and here's what you need to heal let's just give it to each other and shall everything will be you know heavily happily ever after that's not the way it works but it's the challenge that makes it much more powerful the healing much more powerful because of the because of the conflict um so also having compassion like you likely know a lot of his childhood story. Maybe he didn't share it with you in the way that's like so moving and so healing, but you have enough to go on to know his childhood story and also start having more compassion for like the little boy that he was growing up with his mother and father or whatever the situation was. Like you're going to have to reawaken a lot of compassion and it's hard when you're not being seen as much and you would like that. But like awakening compassion for that little boy that he was wounded in the in the time that he was um remembering that a lot is going to be also somewhat helpful and to catch him doing doing things right. I think that it's really frustrating especially if you feel like you know I want to work on the relationship he doesn't. So it's very easy to just focus on everything that he's doing wrong. I'm not saying that you do, but in general, this is a challenge people have to just forget about all all the all the things that you don't like about him. Focus on everything that he's doing right and encourage that. And if you can put all that energy in the positive and look for the good in him, you'll start seeing even more good. You'll start seeing him behave even better. Yeah, appreciations go a long way. Okay, let's go. Thank you. Let's go to the next live question you're on. Hey. So, um it's basically a continuation of this question. Um I love what um I forgot Rifka Rifka said how marriage really does continue on that process and healing there's a lot of healing through marriage. Um my question continuation um having done work um on so many different things and like I'll just throw out like the Laura Doyle type of thing when it's only the women based so the husband's not involved but we show up as our best self. I would love to have my partner come with me in sessions and kind of heal together and it's not it's not even an option and it's hard to be the one showing up all the time and being the one to you know doing all the right things being that amazing listener holding that space but again there is with time you do see a change he does learn by example you see a little bit but it's still like how how does one get the like the support when they're just one-sided And again, where would I find this kind of um among therapy in one for one person? Yeah, it's really hard not to have that support and to feel like you're always doing everything. I don't know everything Laura says. I'm not, you know, we talked to her once. Um, a lot of it is very helpful. What was the you said it's not you didn't find it was very helpful for turtle women that were turtles right because they surrender like too much right I I know you said that before anyway but I don't know if that I found I look she's not Tyrus Misha right comes first I found what was helpful is in my first marriage helping myself in the marriage how I didn't let myself what I learned a lot is self-care my page there was a lot of I can't like really it's supposed to help the relationship it helped me in my relationship and when he ended up walking out I was okay and I didn't die and that I thought was very I don't think that was the purpose of her thing but that separation of two people when when I didn't know that I grew up very imshed like that's what I've seen so I learned that to separate and now in a new relationship I'm my own person but it gets kind of blended a lot you know if I decide I want to do something they're you know my partner doesn't realize where I begin and end sometimes so I'm constantly be doing the work. Yeah, it's it's very hard. Um, sometimes we find that one person has to I mean it's not it doesn't may maybe feel fair but sometimes one person has to kind of carry the relationship and sometimes it's for a certain period of time and then the other person eventually comes on board but it's hard to predict kind of when that will that will be. Do you think also I mean the safety thing is so huge like we might think we're being safe and we are scaring him away beyond like I'll never forget the first workshop we went to 20 years ago and they had they divided up the room between maximizers and minimizers or the hailtorm and turtle that I described and I was with all the other hail storms and he's over there on the other side with all the turtles. I looked at him across the room and I thought, "Oh my gosh, he must be terrified to live with me." And it was the first time it dawned on me like just growing up in a house where we yelled at each other, constantly blamed each other. I saw my parents, I had to call the police a few time like it's just it was so loud and I had no clue that it was so unsafe. And so, not to say you're an unsafe person, but you know, if the men I if the husband is pulling away there, there's something from there's definitely trauma. There's definitely history. We're both coming into a second relationship. um being the the way we connected I became that safe place that I'm definitely the safety but because you're the safety you're also the place to be the being I'm being hailed on even though he could be a turtle like this is a new like he's definitely a turtle because he'll he'll if he feels threatened he'll escape but when it's safe like why didn't you put away the coffee like so I didn't put away the coffee like why are you eating that like so I'm eating it like things that don't make sense you get like bombarded by because there's a lot of pain. Does it make any sense? Like there's just this constant flow of barrage of like I wonder what would happen if you um just put on a video and like he happened to see what it's like to have a conversation in a different like I don't know. So I so so sometimes I'll I'll really bait him like we'll fight about the kitchen. I have a dream kitchen and like I want two things like milk and place is very kosher, right? And there was like whoa, no. So we I'll constantly bring it up because it's such a safe topic. It's just a dumb kitchen. But that's for him. No, but because if if I really want something serious, then I'll just have to do it because it's it's not going to happen. It's like too scary and that will come flying. I don't know why it's not safe for him. Why if I get a flip phone is it like the world is going to come to an end? Like literally there's going to be debt. So that's where the curiosity wondering wondering where that's why he feels that way. So we well I so I started that that conversation and it's like but then I don't want to talk about it hang up like okay okay yeah so for sure the conversation is not safe for both of you and we would invite you both you know somehow but let's say there is no this is the question how can I have those conversations be guided with it without the without him is that even possible I just don't know what you're saying, but if if you said it the way you just said it to before, I could tell you 100% he's going to shut down because that's not safe. So that wouldn't be the way to have that would not be a safe conversation to say why don't we do this or why don't we get a second sink? Like that's No, no, no. This is right. But with time, I mean again now now I'm up to the third sink and he's still he's giving me a second. It just okay I laugh because that's the connection like which it shouldn't be but I don't know how else to it's like a that's the connection where you have to like be like adversarial somehow somehow like I think there was um a years of of learning that's what he's used to so I'm not going to do it I'm not going to do it I'm not going to do it but about the kitchen I could fight I don't know Um, yeah. No, I mean, feel free to contact us afterwards. It's a little hard to go through all the Well, there is a way to do it on a one-sided healing process to be able to be there for somebody else but still get support because yeah, I just think that you need I think it's important to clarify what is safety for you and what is safety for him. And that might be beyond the scope of the discussion, but it's very easy for us to think, well, why can't I just ask you for to get me a redo the deck? Like, why do you have such an issue with it? Well, that could be bringing up a whole childhood story for him. And that wouldn't be fair of me to like demand that. Why can't he tell it to me? Like, this bothers me because why can't he tell it to you? Wouldn't we? I don't even want the kitchen. I just want to know why. Like, why can't you do Why can't you just hear me? So, why is a very interesting? I think you taught me this probably like in the beginning of our marriage. Like asking someone why don't you is very threatening. Why don't you do why don't you do this? It's why a question is interrogative which is the same word as interrogation. So it feels like again I'm not saying you're not coming you're not that's not your intention but that in the brain all all of a sudden that experience might be like oh wait I'm on the on this witness stand right now you know and I think I become that hailtorm right when I come up with ideas that I want to be heard right to be heard that makes sense you don't feel then I get shut down because I don't know so yeah yeah makes sense You don't feel heard. You You don't feel like you've been supported and you have to get louder. Hoping they don't actually hear you this time. No, cuz I don't want the shutdown. I don't want the turtle. That's not that I don't want that. Yeah, it makes total sense. So, how do we teach each side to see the other side? If you you're the hailstone, how to see the turtle. If you're the turtle, how to see the hailstone. Let's do it one at a time. You don't have to be together in the room. Let's talk about it. Well, does anybody want to demo this conversation? Like if there's a husband and wife out there that would actually like to model this, Schlommo could walk you through it and then you all can see actually what it's like. Yeah, if anybody would want. But even before that, would you be able to explain like they should understand the other side without them being there? It's like, yeah, it's we could definitely explain it. It's just easier to I mean, understand the other I mean, part of it is you may you may or may not know exactly where it's coming from. You may or may not know their story, but often you can. Uh if you know your in-laws and you know a little bit about their childhood or their past relationship even you said it's a second marriage, you might have an inkling and you can just try to almost guess not to ask but just to think h wondering why he's so resistant. I'm wondering why he shuts down when somebody asks him for something and knowing what you know about him. Where is that coming from? Where do you think that's coming from? And as you understand that, well, that makes a lot of sense. And I, you know, but I don't want that. But I don't want What do you mean? I don't want I don't want that. It makes a lot of sense. But I don't want that. Well, you have to find shut down. You don't want them to shut down, right? But so just Why can't they just Why can't I just give it Why can't they just do what I want? Yeah. But because they don't feel safe. So again, that's how do we that's the more they look, it's a lot easier when you have both people on board because then it's like the person who doesn't want to share, it's an opportunity to share and they can feel they can actually feel heard and they become less afraid to share because they know that there's a space for them in this relationship to open up and to talk. Right? So in other words, we're looking for safety for both of you. And many people think okay after listening to coach okay let me go try this and you miss the point because there is no safety and you're going to try to understand and have the conversation but there's no safety. So coming to a therapist which creates the ru uh safety for both of you that could help and it could be you know people have taken the course and they know how it works but it has to be both of you because if you're trying to change your spouse then no safety right. Exactly. So that's why you have to change yourself. So for example if I'm a helltorm I need to realize that if I want to talk to my spouse I need to make sure that it's safe. I need to see if they're available instead of just pouncing on them. I need to think about how I share, how might come, how I come across, what I might do to trigger them. And that's the only thing I can do to take responsibility for myself. Yeah. So, you can't go in the relationship thinking about what what I can get from the other person, but it's more about what I what can I do to be a better person and better spouse, right? And even if you want to share, you know, I just want my spouse to listen. I want to share and how to say it so that after a minute or two he's he or she is still there. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, it sounds like it's a lot of work and there's a lot of steps to it. It becomes more natural practice and you can practice on your kids too, you know, if you're uh it's great to do with kids um in any in any relationship. You're saying these concepts. Yeah. Schlommo uses it with people in business together with teams at work. I mean, he had one client that uh was a dentist and he did the work and the dentist said, "I have made so much more money this week because I mirrored my patients who were really afraid to get the root canal. I validated them and I empathized with them and they just kept buying my service." So, it works in many relationships. Yeah. It's all about like if if you're a human being then you have a brain then it's gonna work it will help the problem that that we're not addressing here and I don't know how to address it is like what you're saying is very simple concept in theory you're saying be calm listen to your spouse valid it's about them where it gets very complex for everybody is it's the person the thing that your spouse needs is the thing that you're suffering with so and that's what like the lady said before what I could heal him, he could heal me. And that's the way Hashem made it obviously, right? The person who needs this that like Hashem makes it like that. And that's Hashem gives you a spouse partially to heal, partially to give, whatever it is. But it's it's usually totally possess. Yeah. But the problem is you the the issues that cause a lot of the big fights and that's what triggles down to the small fights. It's not about the sugar and the salt. there's usually big things there is that the second they try to communicate like all the triggers are coming up and the person doesn't even know what's going on right like for example her with the deck or her with the kitchen like there could be a million things going on over there he himself like just has to work it out so like you want to be open you want to this but at the same time when you touch that raw nerve you're not dealing with a logical person that's why a lot you need that therapy and you need that calm space you have to feel that safe but when you have these conversations they can be very very touch and up. Yeah, I mean, and then finally when you open yourself up, which is even harder, and you want that connection, finally your spouse partially gives it to you. And then you lose it also. It's also very hard, you know, like you put yourself out in that vulnerable place. I'm just bring out a point that I think you need to play it out. You have to see and you have to understand it. You have to constantly do it and you have to trust. It's so funny because you get married and you really trust the person. Everybody wants to have a successful marriage. Everyone wants to love and give to the person but then everybody runs into the same rut of complexity in communication. So and also the question also the question is when does a person know he needs individual therapy and when would you say okay now you can work it out together with the help of Imago or or you sometimes it's it's heavy stuff that you don't want to do it together. Right. So I always hear you say for if someone has an addiction they need addiction support but mostly everything else we really like the couple to handle together. If it's a relationship issue I mean if even it's an addiction views it as an attachment issue it doesn't mean you shouldn't go to AA or an inpatient you have to do that too for sure if it's a relationship issue then we believe the best most effective way is to deal with it in the relationship. I've seen too many people who are going to I mean you said it before but but I I saw a therapist myself and I would come home and I'd be mad at him and I'd bring up all the things she said and then one day he went to that same therapist and he came home mad at me bringing up all the things she said and it just was such a waste of when we could have done the work together. If if you're a good therapist, again, there are many good therapists out there that don't that don't do this. But there are also many well-meaning people that actually make it worse and they don't even meet the other person and they they can say, well, you know, maybe you should get divorced and other things that they happen. I get calls from this about this all the time. But the if it's a relationship issue, the the most impactful and most the most the fastest way most expeditious way to deal with it is in the context of the relationship. Yeah. So now, yeah, it might be hard for people to do it. Might be, but if both people are committed to doing it, they can do it. It's going to be scary. There's always going to be a dragger and a draggy. There's going to be one person who really wants to go, one person who is not so into it. But if they show up and they do the work, it feels a lot in my experience, it feels a lot safer than we think. And when you feel safe, then people can because I want to share maybe one point about having this word safe, you know, sounds what is it's kind of amorphous. I mean, we know maybe what it feels like to be safe, but it's really something that's happening in on your in a neurological level that when a person is in reactive mode, their brain is is basically going into the their brain stem and their lyic system are firing and they're basically they feel like they're in actual danger. So that's when you when your spouse criticizes you when you're they're triggering you from your childhood, you feel like you're in actual danger. You actually maybe feel like you're you're back in childhood. You're back in that same situation. You can't distinguish between your spouse and that past experience. It's almost like PTSD. It's like, you know, someone was a combat victim and they're walking in the middle of Manhattan. and they hear a loud noise and they think they're back in Afghanistan. The truth is they're not. But that's what their body their body feels that way. They react to that. And that's what's happening on a smaller degree in a relationship. The key is when you're in that place, you're only thinking about yourself because you're feeling you're in danger. So I can't think about, oh, like let me listen to you. Let me see what you need. like no like I'm in I'm in mortal danger right now and I need to protect myself or I will not survive. What this process does with the slowing it down and the intentionality and the eye contact, it gets a person to a place where they can access their full brain, access their prefrontal cortex, the part of their brain that can problem solve and and can use logic. And when we can get to that place, that's where we solve the problem. So people can be fighting about, you know, Einstein says, you know, his indef definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. People come to marriage counseling and they're going to just argue the same way they do at home. They're not going to get any they're going to get the same results because there's nothing magic about a third person tell helping you and telling you what to do that will make it better. We need to change the dynamic. If we change the dynamic and we don't do the same thing over and over again, we can get different results because we're calming the brain down so we can access the prefrontal cortex instead of me feeling defensive and it's it's my way or the highway. I need to protect myself and you need to protect yourself. We can actually hear each other and then people will say even after the first time to do the dialogue process, oh like I've been married for 30 years, you have this problem. I never understood why this bothered you until now. Or oh finally I have a new idea. people figure out. People have the the inner wisdom to figure out figure it out, but because they're so stressed out and so threatened the whole time and so reactive, they're not able to be flexible. So, it's really about this idea. We keep talking about the safety is getting to a place where it shows in your brain to be able to get to a place where you can access the part of your brain where you can come up with new solutions. And that's how you can be able you ask how can I the thing that my spouse needs most from me is the hardest thing for me to give. Well, if I feel threatened by it and I'm in my my primitive part of my brain, so to speak, reactive brain, yeah, it's going to be hard. But if I can feel safe and be able to get to this part of the brain, then I can actually understand where you're coming from and I can actually maybe even want to work on stretching and giving you that thing that you need most. That's hard for me to do. Okay, let's go to some more live questions. Hi, you're on. Hi, thanks. I'm really enjoying this talk. Um what resonated most with me um is the way you explained how the relationship the healing that happens in the relationship. Um my question is also just before you mentioned that we can't change other stuff which is like something that like we all know like you can't can only change yourself. You can't change someone else. What I'm trying to understand though is if I'm looking to go to couples therapy and I want to get that healing, I know that there's a lack of safety um and there's a lot of things that I would want to like bring up with my husband and I don't like I don't share it because because I don't feel safe um and I want him to learn emotional regulation and emotional intelligence and different skills, communication or whatever it is in order for me to be able to be safe, you know, like it sounds like It's a contradiction. Like if I I want him to change in order for me to to to heal, but like we can't change someone else. So, and he's like he's agreeing to come to therapy like very begrudgingly. So, it's like okay, we'll drag him there, but then like he's not willing to do the work, right? Is that helpful? So I guess basically my question is if we can't change someone else, can I expect for the healing to happen if like I'm basically going into couples therapy hoping he's going to change? You're asking if how can you if you're going into couples therapy expecting him to change, how can you get the healing that I mean but you're not supposed to expect him to change. How can you still get the healing if you're coming from How can you still get the healing that you're looking for, but also not expect him to change in the process, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that um I think you figured it out yourself. I think you heard tonight that we really can't change somebody else and yet you want the healing. And so the best way I think would be for you to show up as that person and again to acknowledge like I realize I haven't been the safest person in the past and the way I've brought things up maybe were threatening. I really think it would be great to try this but but like you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you're going in just with the idea that you want to change him which I think you got on a deep level. And so like letting go of control and kind of it's okay if he's like dragged in, you know, just getting somebody to show up. The fact that he shows up like maybe he's not excited about it doing a little dance like yay couples therapy. Like who wants to do couples therapy? But if he's in the room with you and he went like he's committed. So, I don't I always tell people, you know, that when they show up at our workshops, um to focus on themselves and to appreciate that their partner's there and share with them, I really appreciate that you showed up with me today. And like really letting that appreciation uh soak in and starting to share more of those, he might really come around. And if you learn how to be safe with him in the work, think about like I want to be a safer spouse. So, if you learn how to do that together with him, I think he'll he'll likely respond in kind and be able to give you, you know, what what you need. So, yeah. And you'd be shocked. I mean, we've got all kinds of people come to these workshops. I mean, just it's amazing to see that like people never would have thought their spouse could make it in the door that comes and they show up. So, She's saying so many people are texting. I'm not even mentioning, but so many people are texting. I just want this woman to hear like the husband has no interest. Like there's nobody to work with. Like you know, you even asked the lady to do the work yourself and do it. But at the end of the day, when the other person is completely shut down, not going, you could do a tremendous amount of work and you could really try, but ultimately it is you need two to tango. You need two people to dance. You know, you could become a better person. You could become learning more salonous, self-care, self-love, blah blah blah blah blah. But at the end of the day, that your spouse is the things that we're talking about here, communication, and learning to be vulnerable and being honest with each other. He's not even coming to therapy. The fact that the person's coming is itself an commitment. Yes, sometimes the man comes begrudgingly, he comes in when he knows better, but he's at least trying. It's it's it's a big step in a positive direction. That itself is very very powerful and very you should be thankful for that. for the people that aren't showing up. Like I just would really really invite you all to think like what am I doing that's just imagine me scaring him like so much to be in marriage like it's really scary especially if you're a hailtorm married to a turtle it's terrifying for them and so it's not an excuse for them not to show up for you but really really encourage you to take send a responsibility to learn what does safety mean? It does not mean self-care. That's like self. It means like really going past myself to imagine what could it be like to be married to me and how am I talking and am I interrogating? Am I asking constantly? Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do this? Why? I'm feeling triggered already. Like it's really hard to be married and to receive that all the time. So, and this is barring cases of abuse. We're not talking about abuse because we always get someone yelling at us like, "How could you talking about the run-of-the-mill uh situations?" Um, so it's good to it's good to think about it and also think about why why does this bother me so much? Be again, the more you can be aware of why you're feeling triggered by by your spouse, then you can you become less reactive to it. You might not like it, but you can think about other options. But if they're pushing your buttons and you're just so fixated on fixing them, then you miss the opportunity to understand why it's bothering you and what you can do differently. Okay, let's go to the next live question. Hey, thank you, Asher. Okay. How you doing, U Rabbi Mrs. Slavic? Hi. Um, you know, I I wrote in here um like I could ask a question. I've had a very hard time being open and vulnerable and okay with myself. I don't want to actually change someone else. I've actually always wanted to change myself. Uh whether dating, work, family. I kind of grew up with um a dad. He'd have like outbursts and he'd slam the door. My mother was very passive and kind of put up with it. And I was the youngest and I would go into hide in a room and just kind of like kick a ball around or something. So I'm like a total conflict avoider. I'm a turtle um avoidant attached. I'm anxious attached, you know? I'm I'm a guy who's a regular irregular guy. I've always been a very nice person. I'm a people pleaser. But these things touched me very difficultly trying to uh like be vulnerable in dating or or just say hey this is who I am. I'm a nice person. I just get shy sometimes. I can't ask questions. I can't say hey maybe we should take this further. I just like turtle up very easily and um I kind of know what it stems from and doesn't have to be an IFS thing. I've been in therapy for a pretty long time. classic therapy, DBT and CBT. Um, you know, I've had panic disorder from itish and kind of an agorophobic attitude. So, I kind of always hold myself as an isolator and a loner and it's damaged a lot in my life, but I don't want to be this way. Um, I kind of can identify the roots, but it's not I almost think it's not fair to myself to have to live a life this way. So I kind of want to ask you um you know for any kind of motivational tools I dive and I say to him I say to you I say everything. I'm not I'm not um but I've lost kind of a connection with God. I don't even like to go to school anymore. I don't feel comfortable. Um I try to just talk to Hashem myself. Um I don't know if that's in a question or I'm just kind of putting it out there as a turtle avoidant attached person, anxious attached person. Thank you very much. Sure. I mean it is really really scary like witnessing that kind of you know witnessing conflict. Our parents we also the development where we were wounded and like what age there are certain developmental stages that were more seriously wounded than others right like where it makes it harder to let's say speak our truth or it's really really hard. So just and it sounds like you know that um childhood is not is not for the faint of heart. It really is trauma. Yeah. So it takes a lot of courage and sometimes it's like kind of pushing ourselves a little bit beyond our comfort zone and stretching even though it's really terrifying. Uh and to be able to see that we can do it and to not judge ourselves, not to see to be kind to ourselves as well. I think that's that's really helpful like not to beat ourselves up, not to think we're have something wrong with us. Uh you know, it's great that a lot of times like we're so much knowledgeable about about you know psychotherapy and and all these ideas and concepts, but sometimes we also can pigeon hole ourselves and label ourselves and then you know we we begin to think poorly about ourselves. And it's important to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt to to love ourselves, to be able to encourage ourselves, and to just to not limit ourselves to what we think we're capable of doing. Yeah. Even if we seems so limiting. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of therapy speak out there on social media. I'm this, I'm this, I'm an addict, I'm this, I'm the label sometimes really seem to make things worse in many ways. Um, I mean sometimes it's helpful for people to like, okay, now I can put a put a name on this and now I can understand I can validate what I'm feeling, which is helpful, but we don't want it to hold you back from being able to, you know, to feel like you're because all of us all of us have our challenges. I don't think there's I don't think there's anybody that doesn't have is not struggling with something. Some people have it harder than others, but everybody has their own challenges. and and there plenty of people that that can be in relationship and it's all, you know, everyone's a work in progress. I I have been happy at seeing some of the men's groups popping up cuz I do think men get maybe a little less community than women do. Maybe not in the form of I'm not sure, but I've seen some men's groups pop up and I'm really happy when that when I see that because you do need community and supportive community and it's just nice to have that connection cuz as humans like we need connection like we need air and water. We cannot survive without it. It's a it's a vital human need and when we don't have it like it's really really scary and yeah and men are less likely to have opportunities to connect and share share their feelings with other people because it's not it's not something that we're socialize supposed to be doing. Uh women it's much easier. So having those groups and having those opportunities can be can be helpful to give us support. Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, labeling is a very big thing. I mean, in a way, I'm sorry to say that like I found about ADHD kind of later in life. Um, maybe it needs to be medicated, maybe it doesn't. But, you know, I've come to these terms of avoidant attachment and anxious anxious attachment. And those symptoms do make sense to me. So, I don't know if I am that or that just reads like a book to me. So, I I'm not a I don't have struggles in other things like alcohol or drugs. Thank God. So, but I do identify with the symptoms of those things. So, I have to say that that's the things I struggle with and I lack a lot of assertiveness and the turtling is like super easy for me. Thank you. Just one one point about attachment because I know it's very popular these days. I mean, it really comes down to said this read a million times already, but it comes back to the safety. It's that when children don't feel that their their parents are fully attuned to them, either they the parent might be they're like kind of overboard like smothering them or might be kind of a little bit more negligent and not giving them that consistent uh warmth that the child's brain becomes anxious and as the child grows up that's relationship is becomes something scary. And what what the work the couple couple's work is to help regul co-regulate the brain because otherwise your spouse is going or anyone in your relationship with is going to feel anxious to you because that's your early experience of relationship. So it's that it's it's unsafe to attach because that's what I experienced growing up. So being able to learn how to have the safe attachment can can can help with any of those, you know, attachment wounds that we have. Thank you. People are asking um nobody's volunteering over here. Would it be an option for Rabbi Schlommo and Mrs. Rifka to play out a scenario? I could give you the scenario and let's see how how uh communication therapy would be helpful in this situation. I mean, it would probably be better with something re I think it' be better with something real and then if we're just we can act, but I don't think we could we could pick a Do you need to go to Okay, so let's go. What was your last fight? Let's Let's discuss that. Unfortunately, it was actually kind of recent. Okay. It's actually a little bit recent. We haven't had that in a while. If you don't want to talk about it, we don't Yeah. Can he just run to the bathroom for a second? No, no, no. We could talk to him with 200 people on But you'll you'll lay out the scenario. Tell us the scenario. Oh my gosh, he's going to be so upset. Um, it's perfect. Now we have the opportunity. We could hear your side first. It's funny because I knew this might happen and I told him like, "Do you want to talk about it before we get on?" Um, no. So, um, so his mom unfortunately is was in the ER and she's still in the hospital this week because she, um, I guess almost had a heart attack. And so it was like a lot of unknowns. She's still there now, unfortunately. She's hopefully going to be fine. And um so we were rushing Arab Shabas to go see her. We hadn't seen her all week. And I don't like to be rushed. So I don't know. I just sort of flipped out and yelled when we were in the car. And anyway, so I think that's what we're going to talk about. Um but any Did he go into Did he go into turtle mode? Um yeah, I guess he did a little bit snapping turtle maybe um like at the end um because I wasn't being super nice. Um but it's like you know we were both feeling unsafe because it's like you know I'm very very close to my mother-in-law and we want to make sure she's okay and there was a lot of unknowns. So it brought out you know a lot of anxiety for both of us. So let's see if he's willing to talk about it. If not we can talk about something else. We'll find out. uh if he wants to. So again, let's let's just clarify everybody listening that the point that whatever you want to call the therapy what were you saying? Um the point of saying whatever you want to call therapy, the point is really just have open communication. Even though you have open communication, you can be vulnerable and you can learn how to listen and validate, I guess, the other person. At the same time, you're going to have blowups. You're going to have things that you get overwhelmed and you're going to feel times. It doesn't mean that you guys always live in bliss and harmony and you guys always are communicating in this calm, rational mind drinking a tea. No, it would be nice, but at least we have the tools to get through it when we do have blow blowups. It's less It's less It's also less much less frequent. It's less frequent. Even when it happens, I mean, we either talk about it or sometimes we just find a way not to for to I don't know. I mean, I can Do you want to do you want to send or Do you want to give us the the scenario about you and your wife about something that you guys could argue about and then how you guys can communicate it better. I mean, I told him about your mom being in the hospital and how we were rushed to go visit her and then I yelled at you in the car. I don't like being rushed. Do you want me to send or you can talk about it? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, play out the scenario and say, if you don't mind, play out how it actually happened. Well, so we'll hear about it, but usually we have couples um face to face. So, we actually have them talk to each other. So, we're going to sit face to face. Can you all see us? I don't have popcorn. I don't have pop. Okay. Okay. Go, go, go. He needs popcorn. Okay. So, um Okay. Um There's something I like to speak about with you. Is now a good time? Is it? Yeah, of course. Now's a good time. Um, okay. So, don't mind the 200 people, right? And the thousands listening to the video, right? Okay. So, and everybody should have in mind. Okay. So, when we were rushing out the door of Shabas to visit mom, um I was driving and you you mentioned a few things that were bothering you and I was like driving but also sort of looking on my phone and um you said, you know, put the phone away or something like you said, can you put the phone away? And I was just I felt really annoyed. I felt like I was rushing to go see your mom. I was looking for something to help you and then you kind of said like please put the phone away. I just felt annoyed. So what I heard you say is that when we were going to the hospital air shabas to visit my mother. Um, I was telling you about a few things that talking about a few things with you and you were look you were driving and looking at your phone and I told you to put your phone away and you were really annoyed with me because you were trying to do something to help me and you were annoyed that I told you to put it away. But I guess you Yeah. I felt like I was already going out of my way. I was already the one driving. I was looking to help you and then I felt like kind of I don't know shut down or shamed when you asked me to put it away and stop looking. So you you felt you were the one who were you felt you were already going out of your way. You were driving. You were trying to help me and then you kind of felt shamed when I told you to stop put your phone away and stop looking at it. Yeah. Did I get you? Yeah. Why? So just pause for a second. Just understand that I'm going to be the therapist now. You're the patient. understand that just what Schlommo told his wife now and that she heard that he heard that she was shamed. The second he said that her body temperature dropped like a bunch of degrees. Correct. I think so. There's something about like Well, it doesn't mean that Schlommo was wrong. It could be, you know, she was on the phone driving 90 miles an hour and texting or playing WhatsApp or whatever. And he was right. But he's still validating that she felt a certain way. So that listening and validating made her feel right now just good. Nothing happened. But you feel already hurt. Now what happens? Wait, what were you thinking when she was saying that? What if you wouldn't know? What would come up and what would you say? What would I what would I have said? I mean, I had a what did you what do you have to do in order to listen? I I I have a whole I mean I have a whole story about that whole about how how everything went happened that day and my reaction to it, my feeling about it and my own, you know, pain, whatever around that. And I'm not going there right now. I'm just hearing where she's coming from and hearing. I'm just going to put I'm not talking about your story, but just put it up. You know, could be his mother was sick. He needed to go to the hospital. His wife was being not supportive and then busy with stupidity when he needed love, attention, and being taken care of and being focused on. And he could be he could be 100% hurt and he could be 100% right. But right now, she felt shamed and put down. So, you're just validating her part. You're not even discussing anything about you. I'm not Yeah. And it's not Yeah. I'm not It has nothing to do with me. I still I know he's upset still. But most couples right now would be fighting. Most couples would be saying, "You understand? I was going to my mother and I was in a terrible situation and you were in there for me and you would be ripping her more shame right now. That's true. Yeah. And your point that you were right and she was wrong. And this is the first time we're talking about it, by the way, because we've been avoiding talking about it because we know we're both upset. I can tell. I'm not very There's two more steps. Can you bear with us? No. No. No. I'm just I want people to understand like what I'm seeing. Yeah. very safe space. Um, yeah. And and I will say I'm remembering now that I might have also been nudgy because in the car we weren't really speaking and I felt a little disconnected. I remember feeling like that on the way there. We weren't really talking and I think you were saying to him or whatever and I don't know I whatever it didn't start off well. I felt like I left in a rush. the car ride was silent like when it's usually not. So, it just didn't there was like a few things that set it up for not success. So, you said there are a few things that set up for not success like when I made made that remark to get you feeling shame because we weren't not really connected. We weren't talking much you were in a rush to leave. I was already a little triggered. You already a little triggered from before we left. Before we left and then I was we weren't really talking or connecting. Yeah. Can I get you? Yeah. Some more. No, that's all. Sure. Uh, yeah. And and and I did not and I yelled at you when we got out of the car and that was not I'm not proud of that behavior. So, I'm sorry about that. And you said you yelled at me when we got out of the car. You're not proud of that behavior. You're sorry about that? Yeah. Did I get you? Yeah. Is there more? No. So I'm going to in summary what I heard you say is that on air of Shabas when we went to visit my mother in the hospital and I made that comment to you to I asked you to put your phone down and get off your phone um you were you felt really shame. you were trying to help me and you felt like really ashamed that I told you to do that and you said that we kind of set up it set off it started off on the wrong foot because when we left the house we you were in a rush and we we didn't really talk so much in the car and you felt disconnected and that kind of led up to that moment that made it really impactful and then you also said that you were upset I mean you were apologized because you yelled at me. Yeah. Is that a good summary? Yeah. Is there more? No. So now, how does Schlommo feel good? Because at the end of the day, he did everything great now. He ap he heard you. He validated you. You feel good. You feel loved. You feel understood. But what about all his pain that he has? He's not He didn't validate anything that What about everything that he went through that day? Tomorrow. I'm here. I'm in her world right now. It's not about me. Tomorrow. We're not done yet, actually. Next week. Yeah. So, there's two more left. Okay. So, I I heard everything that you said and what you're saying makes sense and you make sense. Um cuz I did tell you to put your phone down when and you were doing something to help me. Thank you. And I imagine you you were feeling angry. [Music] a little bit scared at that moment because of everything that was going on. Be a little sad that you felt sad. Yeah. Is there more that you feel? No. It's just cuz we felt disconnected. What's the what's the stage you're doing now? Are you doing now talking explaining the emotion? Yeah. So, first I validated by saying that what she said makes sense, right? And so that like even if whether I have a different opinion, I can hear that in her her experience is valid. Okay. And then I'm and then the next piece is empathy where I'm actually trying to guess what she she was feeling at that moment or even either right now or at that moment. But um I'm trying to guess what she what emotion she was feeling. So I said maybe anger and then fear but then she said sad. Okay, thank you for listening. You know sometimes like there would be let's say a child if I were doing this with a couple I would say you know and give them the line and what this reminds me of from my childhood and a lot of times this would come back to something deeper because I might think okay well I just told you put your phone down cuz we have to leave right now or something like that whatever it is and that feeling of shame could be something very I'm not saying it is but like something very familiar. So then that would be something where we go even deeper and then it would really be like easier to listen because it's really has very little to do with I mean it's again 9010 10% I made that comment but it's 90% the reaction that was just a quick that was a quick question. So again, so to repeat what you did was you you you listened, you validated, then you went into the empathy of the emotion and then sometimes you go deeper into the what similar life experience made you feel like that, right? Yeah. But just if a couple's like really angry and someone's really like I wouldn't recommend someone say and what does this remind you of from your childhood because then it feels like your spouse is just derogatory. Yeah. If if this if the the sender the person if Rifa wanted to share her she could have said what this reminds me from my childhood or if I'm working with a couple if you know the facilitator would have them go to do it could be derogatory right yeah or just yeah but I am curious actually where it comes from and I'll think about that later and we'll talk about it because it is a I could see a little bit of a pattern that plays out sometimes and so something worth talking about Maybe when we do your your side, we also don't switch off in the same conversation. So like we don't because like it would ruin the whole if we felt really connected and usher like you said it looked like I was calmed down and connected. It would ruin it if like okay when's it going to be my turn to deal with my pain. Or if I would just say like well you did such and such and that if it becomes a rebuttal then you missed the point. The point is to go into the other person's world. If you're still want to I just want to clarify. There was nothing here about you. Zero. So how do you I'm asking a personal question. You did all the work. You did an amazing job. Everybody give a give a clapping signal on your thing. Just if you thought it was helpful, if you thought you gained something. Yeah. Anybody who thought it was pretty amazing, give give a give give a Yeah. one of those. Yeah. Keep going. Like a deep crying one that we've had before. It was like a quick. So my question is I guess where I would have it hard or people would have it hard is how do you get that validation cuz you're the one that's hurt. Talk about you. What do I do? Like how do I get my validation? Yeah. Cuz you're you have two people that are disregulated. Right. Right. So now you want one of them to be calm himself down from his whatever triggered him. Do the whole validation. do that. You did a beautiful. It was really nice. Very impressive, honestly. And go into the empathy and then all that, but how are you gonna get So, normally we're looking at, okay, now Rifka, you turn to Schlommo. Let's see how you do it to him. But you're not doing that. So, where is that? Are you going to the grave with this? No. So, um, so it's something that there's a few different options. one like if someone's seeing me like let's say um like one week one person shares the it could be next week I would want to share about it um or we make a time I'll say like not like immediately because the point is like the feeling in that moment is like when it happened for sure it's like you were really angry with me and I was I was really hurt I don't even know but I was really hurt and I like really like was like and then it's like it's comes a power struggle who's going to get to talk about it And it so I just like I didn't say anything and I tried to deal with it myself and doing I had this realization anyway it helped me like deal with it and just let it go and see like what can I do to take ownership about about what what happened. So even though if I think you know normally our experience is well the it's their fault like they did this to me they're they hurt me but it's like what can I do to realize this is my issue that I have to deal with whatever that's not an easy thing to do but and so a lot of times you can doesn't bother you also it's like when I hear this if I hear the story and especially if I hear a childhood story like about other issues we've had I realize I don't need to explain myself I don't need to defend myself it has really very little to do with Yes. Okay. I know I did such and such, but like if you're getting upset with me because I put peeled the vegetables in the sink instead of a trash bag, I know that like I don't need to defend myself. Like I realize there's a story there and I need to listen. In this case, you said put down your phone, right? So, you know, like I felt shame. So, since you know that you're not feeling like you have to still get heard and your side heard because Yeah. I mean, if I can the more you can get in touch with the other person. I'm getting let's let's go zoom out of the story. Let's just I'm taking the story and say you were 100% hurt. You're the victim here. Your wife was 100% wrong. Right. I'm going with that theory. Forget about the story. Your mother was sick and you got the whole go-ahhead. You're you're a tadic and she was just completely off her game. So, you did everything great for her, but at the end of the day, you really but awful to me. You did something really not nice, hurt my feelings. You you embarrassed me. You hurt me. something that really I'm not okay with. So I'm very proud of you that you did that with her, but you're not asking in return that. So how how without being a martyr are you okay with that? And how do you expect somebody else to be okay with that? Do you understand my question? Yeah. So you can I'm talking about a situation where the person was novel internally. You're saying how is he dealing? Practically we sometimes will tell couples next week he could say to me remember that time we had that dialogue in coach man do you mind if I share what was going on for me but like a week later not like that minute like okay my turn because that will ruin but but I could also I mean again this is this is harder for people that are starting out on this like I could in theory and I'm not going to but I could if willing to have a dialogue about what I was experiencing without without blaming her, without reacting, without taking away from her feeling. Meaning, I can understand that I made that comment and then and that and she felt shamed. I can I can validate that and still be able to share what was going on in my world without it rebutting what she said. But that's a that that's hard. That I mean, that takes uh time and facilitation to be able to really be able to do that. So, in general, like I I try to have people not do that right away. you if you want to do that you have to ask permission is now I'd like to respond is now a good time if it's now it's not a good time then some people say like no I don't want to hear it right now um then I would say later on let's there's a different school of thought in the model I just this is how like we we find because somebody's texting me shouldn't Rifka then ask what's going on for you she should I mean she could but it has to be done it has to be shared in a way that's going to be safe if it's not going to safe and it's going to be rebuttal or invalidate what you said. It ruins why would why when he was done why didn't you turn to him and ask him why don't you do the same thing vice versa I'm asking you oh well we just we don't follow usually the mahal of like doing both sides in one yeah because like sometimes you have couples they're crying they're like having this whole connected moment and then you're going to be like okay other other side and then it's like it just ruins or it's like yeah but you shouldn't have been like I would say like yeah but like you shouldn't be on the phone when we have to get there already or like you're you know or when you're driving or whatever like that it's against the law you know that's completely invalidating of what what she was sharing it has nothing no but you could say it in a nice way but still is usually of the school of thought where we don't have couples do this other side in the same night or no feel if you would do it that way again I understand the theory if you would do it that way it feels a little bit disingenuous like I'm going to do you if you're going to be nice to me make me feel good so you're doing for the spouse it's hard if you feel the need to do it. So you you schedule an appointment, you know, you wait, let's say wait 24 hours. You might say, do you and like tomorrow I might say look look I you know I want to know if can I make a time to talk to you. I want to share process with you have a dialogue about what happened Shabas and then you could say okay yeah or like not now how about tonight when the kids go to bed and then we have that conversation and we can do it and it's not a it's not a you know it's just okay like I heard you you heard me. It's like it's not a to hear the different opinions and that's why there's a training. It's not simple for one to sit with the other person's you know with your own and sitting with what they shared and you want to get it out of you just you leave it there. You understand the other and that's it. Stay there. It can be very hard. It's very hard. It was right. Once we understand what you're looking for, understand why you're doing it. We're not here to, you know, see who's right and who's wrong. It's not a question of who's right or who's wrong. We're trying to figure this out together. For you to really understand the other is to be able to sit with it. Even if it's painful and you don't like it and it's and it's that's part of it. That's what they need to hear. That's the reason why we're having such a hard time in relationship because it's always back and forth. But me, but you. But me. Over here, one of the things we're learning is it's not about you or me. It's what did you need? How did you feel? Let me try to understand it and then stay there even though you have so much to bring up on the other side. It's not that's not what we're doing. So, uh it sounds it sounds amazing. Yeah. If if you know we Schlommo one part of the bio that changed since he came last uh it was before October 7th even a few years ago he's now able to certify people as IMO therapists or as IMO coaches. So if people are really intrigued and they want to learn this as a profession even or just a skill to get really good at he does have a training coming up um last week of July and it's virtual. It's really wonderful training to learn how to be able to sit with other people's I I would say it's so important for uh with your kids and like you mentioned at work with your co-workers. Sure. Yeah. Cuz all let's go let's go to the closing segment and we'll leave with closing. Okay. So first of all big thank you to Schlma his wife Slatkin for coming on tonight and giving Trenzik. The the demo was amazing. Everybody can text in the box on 1 to 10. I want to know how much you gain from tonight's share. Put on the in the chat. Let me just one second. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Okay, text the chat on a 1 to 10 how much you gained tonight from this Latin couple over here. And um Chen, hopefully we come back again. Give more to people. So again, next week again, just to repeat, next week uh July 13th will be show us we're not going to have a share. The following week will be Daniel Osher Kleimman followed by Charlie Harrari. That will be the Sunday before Tisha. Please join us. Let people know about it. Everything's recorded. If anyone has any questions, please email [email protected]. Tonight shares 236. The phone number 732305911. Thank you to all the advertising sponsors. L Scoop Elliot Ariel from 5town Central K from JCN. We're going to go to the closing part again. If anybody wants to get in touch with the Latins, you can go to the website again. What's the website? The marriage restorationpro.com. And I'll post it in the chat as well. Um, if you look at the chat, people are texting. I just opened it up so everybody can text whatever they want now. So, I hope you guys are looking just to give you a little Kzik. Um, let's just go to the closing. I'll go first and then I guess I'm going to ask Mrs. Lin to close. Is that okay? I'm really not as good as Schlommo, but whatever you say, use clothes and then Schlommo will will will do will do repair because he's very good at that. That's right. Yeah. So, I just want to say let's listen, it's a very powerful topic. This is something that people need in marriage. Obviously communication is the number one issue and as we see everybody you know gets into these situations and young couples especially communication it's so difficult so hard I think it's it seems like it gets harder now just because so much things is text and so many things are just not verbal like I I've had recently a text message with somebody and like just because I use caps on a word like they read things like it's so not like normal conversations um learning how to communicate and validate in this it's a very powerful tool It's very it's also very self-aware for yourself like how to be, you know, in a good place. Um, and I think that we have to realize when you marry somebody that you love them, they love you, they're there really for your best interest, not out to hurt you, they're not out to get you. And I think people really keep on like hurting each other. And it keeps on growing this like this mountain of filth that um you have to my wife just walked in. I wasn't mentioning you this mountain of like hurt that it's so hard to repair and so hard to get into these conversations cuz you're so hurt for so many years. So let's say somebody's married for 20 30 years and they can never talk to their spouse and then they they won't even try. So to go bring this out so many years later again, you should still do it, but it's just so much harder. Like, but if you go with the concept that really both him and her and like for all the husbands that listen that don't want to go to therapy, like you're doing an envelope to yourself. Like you're really hurting yourself. It's not because she's crazy cuz you need you need to go to therapist or because you know she doesn't understand because you're so smart and she's so dumb or the therapists are crazy these guys come up with all their shittas. You know what I mean? be work on it because you really want to get to that place because you know if you have a good communication you could really accomplish so much more. There's so much more you could do being connected and being understanding to the other person and it helps you in your avoid this right. They they say that the ultimate marriage is the person the spouse really hits that core that you need to work on specifically that thing that she hammers in or that he hammers into her that's like their take on effort that's like their thing that they really have to work on like somehow Hashem created it that the spouse knows how to hit those nud is very strong. I mean, somebody said it tonight also, like, you know, they don't bother you about things that you don't care about. The guy who's laidback, who doesn't care if he's late, you know, that's not the, you know, he marries woman that she's she's, you know, like it's the issue that makes him crazy. That's the issue that makes her like tap into it. So, um, people should listen to this and they should reach out whether it's lacking or just get into communication therapy, learning how to at least even go, let's go, let's go even a step back. Just go. If you see that you're struggling with it, be open to the guy. It's much easier to blame the other person. Much easier to say the other person's crazy, the other person's this, the other person's that, and you have it all figured out, but you're really cutting off your nose despite your face. You're really hurting yourself. and um be be a gover, be a man, be a woman and really go with an open mind to really this is what I need to do for myself, for my marriage, for my spouse, for my kids. That's just my uh closing coach. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. Very informative. I want to mention that there are people who are struggling are in pain and even when they listen to this it sounds like a dream they wish they would be able to do it or maybe they they want what the spouse does or doesn't and um it's hard it's hard and I would say don't you know you have to know where you are but don't try to do this by yourself. Um, especially if you're in the situation for a while and you heard the concepts and you believe it's safe, so you're going to try to work it out. Even by being so nice to your spouse can be the biggest trigger and all you're doing is pushing them away and they're not coming back. It's like but if it's I think it's more than we heard tonight very deep but it's to understand it you know in your relationship to really understand your spouse to understand what works for you what works for them and what you think what works for you you'll try to you know that they should understand you um again if you can do it by yourself it works amazing but there are people out there that are trained and there's a reason for it all training it's not sitting tonight and listening to that. So that's uh very important and uh like we heard the concept of being able to really get out of yourself and understand the other and sit there and just sit there. Don't go anywhere. Just understand them. Even though inside of you there's you know the other way all those triggers try to understand the other. And those who are struggling and their spouses don't want to go, it's hard to say, you know, try to understand them. But there's something that's holding them back and uh to really understand it's hard that in a child that's something that they just cannot be vulnerable. They cannot open up to be able to sit there. That's very hard. So my bra is should be all of us, me, my spouse or you and your spouse, you know, whatever they need to be able to make things a little bit easier, whether it's going for help, having the conversations, the hard conversations in a way that we can grow the relationship get better and ultimately our relationship with ourselves like I always mention so that we can have a healthy relationship with our kids, spouse, co-workers, and hashem. So, hashem shall help us all. Thank you. Amen. Okay, let's go. Sorry. I'm going to listen. You want me to go ahead? Yeah. Yeah, you go ahead. Okay. Listen, you're sitting with you're sitting with hundreds of people that going to listen to this. What after all the two hours plus sitting together, what do you want to leave everybody with? I just want to say, you know, this is very real for us. This is very especially real for me. You know, I said before my parents were divorced, we had a really volatile childhood. And I remember as a little girl like thinking and domining to Hashem like one day I'm going to do something that's going to help people like this. I'm going to help myself. And so it's very real and it's personal. It's right up there. Like I would say like in terms helping other couples is right up there with serving Hashem with our family. It's such a priority for us and I'm I'm grateful that, you know, we went through our own marriage struggle so we could help other people even if I have to embarrass myself in front of 200 people. I'm used to it by now. But it's I I know that I've changed. I came into this marriage knowing absolutely nothing, thinking I knew everything and learning, you know, I happened to be married to a great guy, but we I learned together like I know nothing. And watching my parents was difficult and even doing selfwork, it's very easy to think like, well, I'm so self- evvolved and I've really worked on myself and you and it's like this is baby steps really. It's taken years and it's a lot of hard work and commitment and like if I can change my big hail hillstorm personality which I have I know I know that it's possible and doesn't have to be so complicated can just start with like really baby steps. Um and we've seen it like we've seen miracles all the time not just with ourselves but with other couples. I really believe this is uh saving the world one couple at a time and we need this in our world. Our children our children need it. Uh again, everybody has to make their own decision about their marriage, but like kids, you know, need stability and safety and it's really worth the commitment and the hard work. And I know it's hard when a spouse isn't on board. And so I, you know, I encourage everybody who doesn't have a willing spouse to take Schlommo's training because it's not just going and learning a lot of self-work and then expecting the magic to happen. Like it really is a whole paradigm shift. Um, so I just I believe in everybody's ability to grow and change. I don't think Hashem like I this is how Hashem designed marriage in my opinion. Um, I think there's lots of sources from the Torah that that validate that. So, it's not by accident that you were put in the situation that you were put into. Yeah. And on and on in line with that uh says it says if a person realize that their their enemies, the challenges in their life are really coming from Hashem, then they evaporate. They go away. And I think that being able to realize that this isn't as Rifa said an opportunity for us to work on this and the more we can be aware of it, one of the things that really got us really we could really understand this in the beginning, it made so much sense to us because when we understood that the very things that we were having challenges with were our own issues that we needed to work on that helped us believe and realize that we were in the right relationship and also as Rifka said that when it's so important not only for yourselves but for your children. When I see couples come in and they share about their childhood stories sometimes it's just so painful and I sit there sometimes and I wonder gosh if their parents would have gotten it right these these people would not be in my office. So the opportunity that we have to stop the cycle even if it's from generations to stop the cycle and create a new trajectory for for the future even if we can be a little bit better. It's so powerful. So I wish everyone the and and everything and especially in this work together with your spouse or in relationships and it should uh then bring malam in our homes and in the world. Amen. Thank you very much everybody. We'll see you much in two weeks. Every easy fast and let's try this week a little better communication. Thank you. Yeah. Good night.