HOW TO PICK THE RIGHT SALES LANE | Episode 2 with Meny Hoffman & Pinchus Shiff

Welcome to the Let's Talk Business podcast, a project of the PEX Group. Gain valuable, actionable ideas from the world's top business leaders to help you take the next step in your business journey. And now, here is your host, Manny Hoffman. >> Manny, it's so good to be back. >> Likewise, Mas, thank you so much for last episode. It was amazing. The feedback we got is amazing for two reasons. First of all is people have always told me, "Let's speak to people that are in the trenches." as I said before we started last episode and they feel that when they listen to you and the conversation that we had together they get that and and this is actually a struggle that people have is sales for me and I think they heard exactly what it what it takes to be a good salesperson but now we're up to the next part they already decided sales is for them they have what it takes I think very important point is the next is today's episode speaking about the industry they they need to choose the company environment they need to choose and ultimately the products in it does it make a difference the type of salesperson you are I want to frame the conversation in order we should get right to the to the depth of the conversation is I think it's it's not either or different sales people will react differently the based on the environment different people regardless of their environment they still need to be in the right industry and probably other things you want to add to this conversation so let's dive in salesperson is motivated to become a salesperson they're looking for a career opportunity. What's the first step? >> That's a loaded question. I hope with Hasham's help that we should both have the clarity and I hope you listener you get the clarity you want. >> Yeah. And I I this is something I've been sharing many times people that listen to me know this and I share it. We're Eden and we understand that without Hashem you could be the best salesperson, the best career and everything else. If Hashem doesn't want it doesn't happen. Somebody asked about we have something called when do we use what? >> I love that video of yours by the way. I watch it so many times. >> I'll just repeat it here in this setting. People asked the guy asked usually when we wake up we're not in the mood of working. That's when we want to use a when do we use answered what happened yesterday? You have to have a minute. This is what it meant to be. thinking about tomorrow that's today you wake up and doadas. I've seen many sales people they use it as carts when they're they come in 10 o'clock 11 o'clock they don't have patience like when you get anxious you're like hey I got to put them it's not the way it works >> so for our for for people listening to this episode to any other episode that we I do myself or now we're doing them with understand that all of those things are just to support of course everything is with and we wish we all wish we should all have >> personal belief you start looking for sales career, we start look at anything and everything. The truth is you don't know where you're going to land and that's Hashem deciding where you're going to go. But all you have to do is be open. Decide what you want in life. What do you enjoy? What do you appreciate? Where do you want to go? And you have to take an industry that you connect it you connect with. If you don't connect with the industry, I don't think you have a chance of being successful because if you don't buy your own product, why should people buy that product from you? So, if you like finance, you got to do something in the financial space. If you like outside, inside sales, there's so many in sales alone, there's construction. Some people love construction. They thrive walking into buildings, job sites. Some people dread it. For me, I hate construction. I don't I I I don't appreciate it. For me, I liked payroll. It spoke to me. I got interviewed by a couple of when I wanted to go into sales. I had a couple of opportunities. One is packaging. I didn't connect to me. I I And the other one was payroll. And I felt payroll is a perfect space for me. I like it. It's a unique product. It's more of a professional product yet not too professional. It spoke to me and I went with it. So obviously do your that you should land in the right place. Culture is extremely important if the surroundings. >> But let's let's let's we'll come to culture in a second. I want to stick um you know to the topic of industry. I know there's there's two things to that I want to mention because I want people that are going into sales or in a sales they should set themselves up for success. Is there anything related to their type of people they are, the type of person they are, or based on what we said in the in the past in the in the previous episode that connects them to what type of industry you mentioned. Let's say you hate construction and you like payroll. What is it about you or what is it about the difference between those two industries? Let's go in a little bit deeper to that. Sometimes it's just a feeling. Do you connect to industry or no? Sometimes it's a type of people. If you're a different personality and the industry that you want to service is a different type of personality, you won't be able to connect. The Gamura says there's no industry that doesn't have people that became rich of it and poor. I've seen sales people sell the most bizarre things and they're successful. Some people sell basic necessities, they can't seem to make it work. So, I don't I think as long as you follow your gut feeling and something that you can connect to and you're passionate for, you should be good to go. And obviously a easier sale will mean less commission. Harder things to sell, more commission. You want to sell high ticket items and just get 12 sales a year. Do you want to sell small ticket items and get 5,000 sales a year? It really depends on your type. If are you a guy that lives on instant gratification? You're going to have a challenge in sales whatsoever. But you have to get a shorter clo or closing time because otherwise you'll go crazy. Some people love the challenge of an enterprise sale. They'll rather sell three. They'll rather have three clients a year, each of them paying them $50 or $100,000. They love that challenge. So it really has to connect with your personality. So ask as many questions as as you need before going to an interview. What does a sales cycle look like? Do you have any strategies of getting client? The successful if they have multiple people on the team, the successful people here, what did they do? Which strategies did they use? What failed? Which product goes to which clientele? Ask so many questions that you feel like so clear and they feel comfortable going into that space. They're not philash. That should work out and you should see results. >> Could I add on this topic because I've seen I've seen it a lot. Um, this episode of the Let's Talk Business podcast is sponsored by Flow Digital and Pipe Drive. Sales is the lifeblood of every business. No sales means no revenue and no business. So, if you are a business owner or in sales, you already know how important it is to have a proper CRM. A good CRM helps you manage your sales process and keeps leads from falling through the cracks and make sure you have the proper reporting so you could analyze what's happening every single day. If the CRM is too complicated or not set set up properly, the team just won't use it. When that happens, leads get lost, follow get missed, and ultimately deals stall. That's where Pipe Drive comes in. Pipe Drive is an easytouse CRM designed to make tracking and sales process simple. You can see your pipeline at a glance, move deals forward, and make sure you never miss a follow-up. And with built-in AI, get insights to help you close more deals. But that's not all. Easy to use doesn't always mean efficient. That's where Flow Digital steps in. I'm personally a Flow Digital client that helped me set up the Pipe Drive at PEX. Speaking from personal experience, I could attest they're the best in the business at setting up CRM and automating the sales workflow. As one of the top pipe drive experts, Flow Digital builds automation and AI powered workflows that handle the busy work. Pipe Drive becomes one of your most powerful tools for your salespeople. As a listener to the show, you can sign up for a free Pipe Drive trial at flow.digitalttb where you'll get a 45day trial of Piperive. Plus, you'll be able to get a 45minute consultation to get your CRM set up the right way. Once again, that's flow.digitalb. So, you get the best of both worlds. You get the easiest CRM out there, which is Pipe Drive, and you get Flow Digital to help you set it up. Remember, your business and your sales team will always thank you for setting the right system so they could focus on closing more sales. I do feel that first of all, going back to what we discussed in the previous episode, the difference between an introvert and extrovert. There's a huge difference if something that the trust is the sale. Uh where some people if you're the introvert um that's where you're going to thrive and that's where you're going to have much more passion towards. So it's not just the industry, it's the industry that you could go through the process of convincing. I'm talking about a healthy convincing just explaining the value. Let's say you sell software going from paper and and multiple systems to one system, a platform for your company. That is not a one-off sale. It needs a lot of trust in back and forth. And sometimes those the introvert will have the p the patience to go through that sales process and see through the to the finish line. So I would say if you would ask me the question in terms of of of industry, it's not just the passion because you could have to you could develop a passion. Now you need to develop a passion. So sometimes you could start off in industry because that's the opportunity you got. You have to ask yourself, could you see yourself through a day with that type of industry because in adding value to you, you mentioned before about helping people. Yeah. Helping people. Yeah. I sold them bottle of milk. I sold I helped the person. I gave him bottle of milk. But you could buy it all over the place. Yeah. I'm cheaper. I'm better. This and that. >> Doesn't need a salesperson. >> They need a sales. Once upon a time, it used to before the supermarket. Somebody had to bring it to your house. for itself because it's a necessity and there's no alternative or the alternative is in the same supermarket and that's it. >> Yeah. So, so my approach to it would be that that understand the type of person you are in order to understand where you're going to you're going to be able to develop a passion to go through the sales process. Make sense? >> 100%. That's what I said. If you can't connect our product, you won't like it and you most likely won't be successful. All you got to do is to connect our product. And people call me all the time. and they say I I want to do sales. I have this three offers. And the therapy that we do is it always boils down to what talks to you. This guy it I like it. It's professional computers. I like technology. Perfect. And start. And if it doesn't work, you'll have to move on to something else or see what you're missing. But I don't think I wish there was like this uh a sonogram or an MRI where you can go in and just scans this person for this. I I I think you have multiple ways of becoming successful in many different industries. As long as it talks to your soul, as long as you connect with it and you will enjoy what you're doing, you're good to go. >> I I'll just add another point to that, which is um when you get an opportunity, you could also start visualizing where would I sell it? Like could I see myself? So if it's like you said, if it's construction and selling means knocking on doors and construction sites, could I see myself there? So, it's not just the industries, it's how I'm going to be actually getting my >> I ask every single interview, if you were to start selling payroll work for Friday today, what are you going to do to get clients? And I love and and I really analyze how people respond. Some of them are like social media. I like that. Accountants, bookkeepers, brilliant. Some people just have cold calling. It's good. We don't do that. I I don't personally believe much in cold calling besides for beginners because you have to get become extremely fluent with what you sell. for my industry for other industries it might work. Um so seeing asking the question so exactly if I'm going to be knocking on construction site do I like myself in a construction site job or do I hate construction? Can I see myself sitting in an office all day because it's sales that you do from office and will I be on the street? So visualizing is great but at the end of the game connection that's everything that boils down to. >> Let's talk about environment. I think that's even more important. >> People always I'm sure you get this question a lot. I want to have this name for my company or this name. What is your opinion on naming >> in general? You asking? >> Yes. >> So, >> how important is it for the for the success of a company? >> For the success of the sales person or success of the company? >> Many. You're in marketing. How important is to have a good name for a company? The actual company name. >> So depending on what type of culture you want to develop. So sometimes in the name people get a vibe. That's the vibe that get transferred into internal culture and an external. Have you seen companies become extremely successful and they have terrible names? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I think the same is with industries. Obviously, it can make a difference. Your industry, a better industry, industry that's a little bit harder to do sales and but ultimately you can be extremely successful in almost every industry as long as it matches your passion. Environment is way more important than that. If you're in a bad environment, you can be motivated, you can work hard, you can have the best product, and if the environment will pull you down, you won't be successful. And I think that's the most important thing for to look for when starting out in the sales career. >> So talk talk to me how somebody's listening to this episode and they're looking for a a company to work with. What do you look in an environment? >> There's a couple of factors, but I would start with how do they support sales? Is sales just something that they know they need to check off and they can't grow. So like, let's hire five salespeople or do they really understand what they're selling a sales method? They have a sales machine in place and they're just looking to hire. Do they have someone that's going to train you? Do they have a sales manager? Did the business owner do sales himself? Does he understand what it takes to become successful in sales? Does he know how much time it's going to take for someone to become successful? So, there's so many components. If you walk into a company that just single one man band, if you walk into company just a single person, he never did sales. He just has a company, word of mouth clients, and then hiring his first salesperson. The chances of you becoming successful, especially if this is your first job in sales, are extremely extremely slim. If you're already experienced, you have 20 years experience of sales, you really understand or less than 20 years, if you understand everything, then do whatever you want. If you feel comfortable being a loner without a a good company, that's totally okay. But for beginners, if you don't have the right environment, you'll never be successful. >> I think one of the things you mentioned is is very very important. I I I find speaking to salespeople is that does the whoever is going to oversee you, has that person done sales themselves? I will go back to I'm talking about years ago over 20 years ago. I remember doing sales myself literally parking the car in in front of a a business building and going knocking on doors office to office throughout the years. We had many many salespeople, in-house salespeople, people that are outbound salespeople throughout the process selling our services. I was able to a hold people accountable. I was able to make goals with people. was able to feel along and support them when they got a no or they got a a maybe or they got they didn't know what the next step to be. So I think that's a very important point. But I I do want to ask you the following question. This is something that I've been getting a lot of times. So some people say like let me go into an established company. They have already five salespeople. I'm going to be the the sixth or whatever it is. So there's advantages. And then some people say you know what I'm going to go into this. I'm gonna be the first person in this company. Yes, it's a nice environment, great uh obviously checked all the boxes, a great sales business. He's looking out for my success. What is the pros and cons? More opportunity, more risk, less risk, less opportunity. So, I'm a risk taker. I always take risk, calculated risk. So, it really depends. If you see yourself being extremely strong and you're ready to be the sales the first salesperson at company again if the boss is supportive the company will support you be be my guest just know that the odds are stacked against you it's more risky which means if if if you become successful the reward will be bigger you're the first salesperson sometimes you get equity in the company sometimes you're the leader you get more leads more clients more territory whatever it is but if you're not really ready you're taking enough risk as is by taking a sales job and taking enough risk by starting if it's your first job and it's the first time in sales and there's so much odds stacked against you don't you don't want to take that additional risk >> you get less reward but I I'm not so sure if I were to start today I want to think about myself for a second when I started sales there was two other salespeople not producing well they left at some point there was a period of time that I was the only salesperson >> I loved it because I could manipulate the company I was the most important asset for the company. But on the other hand, it was extremely hard and painful. I wasn't part of something. So if you're ready to take more risk and you and ready to live by on your own without that team feeling, take the risk. You'll get more reward. But the odds are stacked against you. Meaning you'll have so many challenges to overcome. Do you want this additional challenge for a little bit more? It's up to you. You got to decide. >> Got it. What happens to a great salesperson that's stuck in the wrong environment? >> What happens? They're not so great anymore. >> Okay. >> They they won't be able to produce. So you're asking what the action item is for them. >> Exactly. First of all, how how if the person how could a person identify that that's actually what's happening. So it's not them not producing, but it's the environment that it's it's um causing them not to produce. That's the first part of the question. And then like what how should the person proceed from there? >> It's a very tough question. I've seen sales people blame everyone besides themselves. They think everyone is the problem. The company, the manager, the product, the clients. They're just not ready to take ownership. Then I've seen sales people that are really putting in the effort. >> They're ready to make it work and it's just the company is not ready to work with them. Sometimes the company doesn't have the capacity. Sometimes they don't care. Sometimes they're just not meant to be business and to grow. >> It's a very very tough question. I wouldn't I wouldn't suggest you should make this decision on your own. You got to talk to at least one or two outsiders that can really assess. And you got to go to people who are ready to give you the truth in your face and evaluate if it's really you or the company. I had this guy call me last week. He said, "Should I quit my job?" I said, "Did you do everything that it takes to become success?" Not everything because I'm demot like first you do everything even though if you're demotivated and if in three months you see there's no progress, the company's not ready to move, then you'll know that it's a company problem. But before you put in your entire energy, effort and everything, you just don't know. >> I've seen people go in the same industry just moving from different companies becoming more successful, less successful. I've seen people change industries, they lost everything >> and they don't even know they got more commission or more support. It's a switch and you constantly have to mix and you never know what is that one thing. Obviously, it's but you got constantly have to do your work and try test. >> Yeah. An environment, an environment is is very very important and and people >> as business owners like listening to this episode um got to understand that >> as humans how much emotion is is is uh involved in sales in the in a sales career and and the support the emotional support you could have from a business owner the understanding of things take time understanding of what it means I just lost a sale that I worked so hard on I think for business owners alone that's also education ational piece that understanding that it just we don't produce results that we don't have like this AI technology that's just producing sales you know this is a human interaction building relationships and building relationships take time >> I'll tell you even more I have both experiences I've been a salesperson myself and then training and I think that's one of the reasons I was able to successfully train hire retain good people I've been there I'm not an hypothetical it's not some method from Chad GPT I know exactly what worked what didn't work how it works And obviously with the lot of I was able to to train them and guide them. I used to take tremendous pressure in the beginning and just understand the scale. Last month we signed up more clients than what we had in the first almost two years combined. So we've grown tremendously the past few months the last year 25 was a great year for us. I think the reason I was able to support the team the way it is because I was a salesperson myself trying everything on my own and then now and I always tell my partner we got to hire as fast as possible because at some point I'll start forgetting how it felt to be to be a salesperson and I can say the environment and the team and the way they work together is the success and this is why the team has been able to produce so much. They work together. I understand them. they understand me and I used to take so much pressure in the beginning making sure the sales people that I hire become successful and then my sales coach Charlie you had him on your podcast um and Charlie told me it's not your job to turn anyone into a success story it's their job and your job as a sales manager is to create an environment and a place where people who want to become successful should have the ability to become successful so many business owners and managers I'm talking to if you're in sales management you try let me give him let me it's not your job to make that person It's not your job to make sure that person becomes successful. It's their it's their job. Your job is to create the environment, the space. And for example, it can be having ready demos. It can be having a good CRM in place. It could be having so many different processes, understanding, do you celebrate your wins? Do you celebrate with your team? And and I'm not a big fan of this expensive parties that some company um that some companies do. I think it's sometimes out of proportion. People don't People say, "Give me $1,000. just let me go find out what does the salesperson want what how do they feel appreciated connect with them connect with their mission and just create the space where they themselves can become successful >> so I want to ask you on that because this is something I had in mind to ask which is in order to become a good sales manager do you have to be an experience of doing sales yourself >> it's a great question I think most people and basham I'm very gifted at this and and I thank Hashem because I've been through both. Most sales people are terrible managers. Most managers are terrible sales people. So, a good sales manager and every business owner that hired sales managers will know that it's one of the toughest positions to fill. >> Yes. >> A good sales manager needs to be able to do both. But you can't expect them to do sales. I know a company that hired someone to say, "I'll pay you $200,000 to the sales manager." And then additionally, you have to bring in XY. Managing salespeople is a full-time job. But having a person that had sales experience before, that's only a plus. And that's a real that's you setting up that person for success. Sometimes managing sales people can be so black and white like quotas, Excel sheets. That's not the way it is. And I just went through our Excel sheet from last year. Okay, it looked beautiful on pen and paper. In reality, not nothing to compare with the Excel sheet. In the end of the game, the full year, we produce more than the Excel sheet. >> It's just not as nice. It's not so straight. Yeah, exactly. Not so flat. And I think in this world, nothing is flat. Life, everything goes in in in rhythms and sales will go the same. This is something, by the way, you have to watch out. If you see one success, one not success, success, not successful. Start thinking because you want to straighten it out. It's never going to be straight, but you want to straighten it out. That means sometimes you get too many clients, you become overwhelmed, you stop prospecting, you stop prospecting, the next month, there's no clients, you start hustling again. Figure out a way where let's say the first two weeks of every month is focused on X, Y, and Z. Second two weeks, try to create some stability. >> Yeah, that's going to be a topic on it on its own because I want to go into exactly how to the day in the life of a salesperson. >> We're still not into the sales philosophy. What exactly is sales? >> So much. I want to just close out this episode with one follow-up question, which is um knowing that the environment is what's hurting you, it's very easy to identify. Knowing if you're the wrong industry, how do you So, we spoke about the passion before going into it. But now that we have a guy, a salesperson that's now been in this a year, a year and a half, and is they're not producing, how do we know if it's the industry that's the wrong industry um for them for the type of person they are or the passion where they are? >> It's a great question. I don't think I have an answer for that. >> I I would probably have a conversation with a guy and try to ask all relevant questions. And if everything is perfect and it's just is he connected to the space, does he know how to identify clients that need that product? Is he connected into if he's just not connected with that product? I think that's what it's going to boil down to. If everything you could try something else, but I don't think you we have this edimum that can just tell you or especially here on stage like hey this and this is how you know. I don't think that's correct. Um the I think I'll just go back to what we said before. I think just as a as a just a way of thinking is could you see yourself a having passion to what you sell? Yeah. >> And number two to that is do you see a path where you're getting the leads for that? Because some companies let's say the only way is going to shows and as you said before like shows could be so draining. So if you're not a person that I'm not going to be flying around I want to be at home. I want to work my 9 to5. I'm not sleeping over and today in this state and that state I'm going for show to show. It's the the type of environment that they're setting yourself up for success. It's just not matching up to your lifestyle or who you are as a person. >> Totally makes sense. Yes. So for this episode we focused on you know sales is for you figuring out a the importance of environment. We spoke about the importance >> importance of industry. I I really believe that don't overthink it. You find something that you like to sell and everything and and this the environment and the commission structure makes sense. Go for it. >> Yeah. But you want to make research on the industry to understand the competition. How hard is going to be? Will this be just a price war? Is this something value that you're offering? and so on and so forth. We'll discuss that a little later. And and also understanding that if you feel that you're not successful in this company, it's not a death sentence. You could still be a phenomenal salesperson. Learn from your mistakes. Learn what did not work in this in this setup and figure out your next sales career what's going to be. Before we end, I want to ask you this following question is a lot of people say that I don't want on my resume multiple opportunities. How important is that? Is that a reason to stay in one company even if you're not successful? >> Can I be honest with you? >> Sure. >> I don't look at resumes. When people send me resumes, I look for the name, phone number, call them, have a conversation, see what they offer. It's so irrelevant like what they not it's not totally irrelevant. If they have 10 years of experience in customer service, that means of course that they connect with people. But like if you tried two times sales and didn't work, I will just ask you what didn't work at the first job. What didn't work? I just had a guy that came from two sales jobs and all he had to know is this manager was bad. The industry was terrible. I couldn't find if you're blaming everyone. That's a problem for itself. But I don't think on your resume. >> One important thing that I forgot to mention and when you do your research, if there's a lot of competition, it's not necessarily a bad thing. And being the only one in the industry, it's not necessarily the best thing. >> Sure. >> Be very open-minded when you do your research. Always ask why. So, hey, are you the only interview? Are you the only one in this space? Yes. Why? And how many clients do you have? What then? Understanding competition can sometimes be the best thing. I think I don't have to market today that payroll should be done by software. I don't have to change people's narrative on that. My competitors already did that. I just have to show them or see if we're a good fit that we have a simple product. Do you want a simple product? So, competition, be very open-minded when you ask your questions when you do your research. >> Yeah. And actually, you know, you don't have to jump on the first opportunity. Do the basic research because you're going to hustle. You're going to put in so much effort and time. You want to make sure that you're enjoying every single day. As you said, you're enjoying the game as well, not just the win. >> So, with that, um, we will close out this episode. Our next episode we will focus on how do people actually buy? What's the sales process? >> I'm I'm excited for that one. >> What's the the the journey of a sales process, sales system and everything that goes into the human psychology by you trying to help and that person trying to be helped. >> Beautiful. >> Looking forward. >> Thanks. This episode of the Let's Talk Business podcast is sponsored by Flow Digital and Pipe Drive. Sales is the lifeblood of every business. No sales means no revenue and no business. So, if you are a business owner or in sales, you already know how important it is to have a proper CRM. A good CRM helps you manage your sales process and keeps leads from falling through the cracks and make sure you have the proper reporting so you could analyze what's happening every single day. If the CRM is too complicated or not set set up properly, the team just won't use it. When that happens, leads get lost, follow get missed, and ultimately deals stall. That's where Pipe Drive comes in. Pipe Drive is an easytouse CRM designed to make tracking and sales process simple. You can see your pipeline at a glance, move deals forward, and make sure you never miss a follow-up, and with built-in AI, get insights to help you close more deals. But that's not all. Easy to use doesn't always mean efficient. That's where Flow Digital steps in. I'm personally a Flow Digital client that helped me set up the Pipe Drive at PEX. Speaking from personal experience, I could attest they're the best in the business at setting up CRM and automating the sales workflow. As one of the top pipe drive experts, Flow Digital builds automation and AI powered workflows that handle the busy work. Pipe Drive becomes one of your most powerful tools for your salespeople. As a listener to the show, you can sign up for a free Pipe Drive trial at flow.digitalttb where you'll get a 45day trial of pipe drive plus you'll be able to get a 45minute consultation to get your CRM set up the right way. Once again, that's flow.digitalb. So you get the best of both worlds. You get the easiest CRM out there, which is Pipe Drive, and you get Flow Digital to help you set it up. Remember, your business and your sales team will always thank you for setting the right system so they could focus on closing more sales. And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Let's Look Business podcast. I hope you enjoyed the practical, nononsense advice that our guest shared. If you found value in listening, I would be so grateful if you could share the episode with your friends and if you could give the show a fivestar rating on Apple Podcast or wherever platform you listen. Subscribe to the show and get notified every time we publish a new episode. The Let's Talk Look Business Podcast is a PEX Group original production. Until next time, make it a great day.