How Does the Talmud Fit into the Oral Law (Rabbi Shmuel Phillips) (Jewish Understanding)

uh Rabbi Phillips and maybe Rabbi Phillips you can just share a little bit about your background before giving the lecture thank you thank you very much thank you very much all for coming just but before I start I want to thank Rabbi geen Rabbi Shilla for helping to make this event happen thank RBI brtz who gave me of help and advice and endorsement for the book He's you know he's very interested in the topic of the of the oral tradition how the gamorra came to be what makes it binding all these sorts of questions which people have when they start studying gamar but they they don't always get a a satisfactory answer to it straight away um background I grew up I was born in Sunderland in the north of England in 1984 uh grew up in London I went to sort of a range of different schools from cedes to Modern Orthodox our way out here to Israel in 2001 my first month here was 911 which was an experience I've seeing seeing the I remember my first my first week in US Alliance looking out on the balcony and seeing the knesset being evacuated by by swarm of military helicopters and something might be going on here and yeah I've say I've been learning full or parttime in Yeshiva and K since then um I was in mid at the time I started doing a law degree from London while I was in Yeshiva and that really got my mind thinking because when you're studying law from a secular perspective it's very much how the system works trying especially at the beginning you're trying to understand what makes what makes something law what makes something legally binding how does the law change who's authorized to change it to interpret it and I was learning that in the evenings while I was studying gamorra most of the rest of the day and kept thinking well how how would I answer these questions in terms of gamorra and Jewish law there must be a system every legal Haka is is a legal system it's a lot more than that as well but it's it's a legal system so there must be basic rules which govern how it works and it really bothered me I I I asked people I looked around and I until I struck gold I came to the the rum bom's hak dama to the missioner his introduction to the missioner and he there the r sets out how all these things work and it was very comforting for me to know that for someone like the rumbum this was these are questions that are so fundamental that you have to clarify them and understand them not just before you start learning gamarra but even before you start learning the missner so if we start off with with a couple of basic questions if if we say to you all the oral tradition where is the oral tradition from is it is it from seni yes it's good it's not not a trick question yeah one one of the the 13 principles of faith is that not just the written text of the Torah comes to us from mha but also the Torah shabal but what exactly is the Torah shabal what came from through via the tradition through from mha and what was developed through through the years for example if I open up a gamorra here garus and I say to you all was every word in here given over to mosha and passed on through the age You' say no it wouldn't doesn't make sense I bu argues with Rober about that and there are there areas regarding situations which which never even applied to Har night so the idea seems to be that there were basic rules and principles that were given over to Moshe which were then and then a system through which Hala could be set up and authorized through the generations how do you know which is what I found very few sources that I could uh I could that would help me with these questions another question let's say we have a new Sun hedrin that sets up tomorrow next week whatever it is there's a discuss how it can come about if think of Y the tried to set up a SED in his day try to gather all the the greatest in ER is at the time get them to agree on who the greatest K were instead of as hedin he came pretty close I think there were there only a few or maybe even one that that didn't agree to it so let's say we get a new Sun hedrin sitting political sitting wherever they sit in the center of shal and we know this the Sanhedrin have power to to legislate to revisit to to tonas not just when it comes to D ronon but also when it comes to daa dras um so so what would you say how would you know how the Sanhedrin know which Halas they can revisit and change and renew and which Halas are off limits presum they can't change everything so again these these are questions which I had which I I couldn't really find a set of Factory answer to so I'm going to start off reading a little bit from this introduction of the rambam to the mishner and we'll see we'll see where we get up to so he teaches that every Mitzvah this is the I've got some sources here if you want to read through the sources with me or I can just go through it myself and trans translate the main parts every Mitzvah that mosha taught in the in the midbar in the desert he didn't just teach the the what was written in the text the Torah the written Torah he taught it but push he taught it with its basic explanation with its accompanying explanation and everything the ramom teaches any part of this explanation that was taught by mosha to the people there could be no debate about no one could say well I think they should changed no Sanhedrin could revisit that this is the of the ram that anything that was taught from mosha we never forgotten and they can never be disputed anything that was not heard directly from from the Novi and this is an important term from the matters which branch off so the sort of things that were not heard from mosha were the finer details of each of each mitzah so if we think of it as a as a each Mitzvah has a basic trunk it's like a trunk of a tree so the basic feature of the M of the mitzah let's say you have to sit on a Suka for seven days so MOA would have to explain the basic structure and function of a Suka if because if you didn't teach that no one would know what he's talking about so we know basically what a Suka is number of Walls basic sorts of heights what what what the Sak is made out of again basic ideas but the finer matters exactly what the has to be made out of how much of it has to be covered under what conditions one's exempt from sitting the Su these are all the finer details those things they were left says the rambam undefined and a system of interpretation a system of legislation was given over to theim to legislate to each generation by the Sanhedrin it was the Sanhedrin that had actual binding uh binding power to make law but the would they would create d with logic this is the logic of the G the 13 um art scroll call them the hermeneutical the hermeneutical principles that's what this terms everyone knows from the art scroll the hermeneutical devices um K gazer shaba all the different ways we look at the text of the Torah and this system was given over to mosha and he taught the people how to use it so these are these details these finer details were not taught directly to mosha he was just given a system through which these details couldn't could be created and in these finer details sh which were created by the sages and the courts of the generations there are certain things which there was no M about all there are certain other things which were disputed because when there's no you like in the gamorra you can't there's no uh answer book at the back you can look up and see who's right so one will look at it one way and uh and say well a new situation has come up or a new detail is being discussed well I will compare it to a which is M and another will compare it to which is and they'll bring arguments one way or the other one will D the posk one way one d d the posk the other way and there's no definitively right answer that stage that's how you get Al Alo that both are both are correct because neither this Hal was not given over by by mosha mosha Gave Over the system so Within These finer details that is where the M started and the and this is the area within which the Sanhedrin of each generation has power to legislate and to revisit what was legislated by an earlier court and the question comes up this is something I don't know if uh any of you in RT's question and answer session I listen to it quite often I've been over the last few months I've been doing some volunteering work one day a week on the farms and I've my my podcast my shirim which I which I catch up with and one of them is the r his question and answer session and I know this question has come up a couple of times well why did Hashem create a system like this we know M raenu was had had a better form of no more accurate precise level of Prophecy than any other prophets that will come later and certainly a better way of understanding hashem's R and his will than any the would come after the N so why did Hashem set up a system which is incomplete give over a toy which just had the main principles and give over the details to be legislated by the courts why not Hashem could have given over a system where every single detail of Al was fixed at the time and then we be practicing is pristine form of where we'd know everything is right so I don't know if I don't if you've heard his Mall go on because according to every generation there is a required set of Halas like they did according to the requirement for each generation very good that's one of that's one of the answers that's very so before I get to that I'll I'll say Bri his Marshall because to me it really beautiful Marshall um I don't if you've heard it already you can stop me in the middle and I'll go I'll go a bit quicker he he talked about how he gave he gave a marshall an example of of a father who has to run a birthday party for his daughter he's got a six seveny old daughter and what does he do so option A was we saying Isel a your Bel God there's no there's no birthday without a cake he's got to get a cake so he can go out to the bakery and he can find her favorite uh book or cartoon character find a cake which is perfectly uh created and sculptured with the icing looks beautiful she'll be delighted option one very nice but there's something better he can do what is that he can sit down with her at home find out what sort of cake she wants go to the shop with her get the ingredients spend a couple of hours baking the cake together and it's not as beautiful and pristine as the one they bought in the bakery but what have they gained a relationship they've spent hours together building a relationship between them and that said Robert brtz was part of the or is part of the function of the tab Bal it's not just we given this set go and keep that it's Hashem wants us to be toiling in the T to be using our to using our mind to be understanding the spora the logic of the gamar why is this way maybe it should be that way why am I comparing it this way maybe I compare it that way and the process of learning and and and the intellectual efforts we're putting in is part of a process of building a relationship with Hashem we we build a an intellectual and also event a spiritual relationship with Hashem by studying the tal and that's a primary part of its function so that's one reason why yes Hashem could have given us this perfect pristine set of Torah but that would have defeated part of the purpose of it that's part one part two as uh what's your name AEL as azreel mentioned is that's part of the function of the tabal this is something which we've almost lost touch with a little bit because we haven't had a Sanhedrin type court for so many years and also we've had the conservative and the reform movements who who sort of go overboard and trying to change Hala and and without correct boundaries without correct court or anything like that so we've very much pulled back from this idea that that changes we we've sort of kept the the because we haven't had a Sanhedrin but in an ideal State when the t is functioning as it should be we have a Sanhedrin there as you said which recognizes the needs of the generation and knows the limits and knows the system that was transmitted through the generations from mosu and within that system can um create the details of ala to meet the needs of the generation and I'm going to quote here from the M ofin he was writing sorry he was writing in Germany in the 1920s and he's talking this is this is his commentary on it's his commentary on the to they rebuke all of the the terrible things that were going to come across the Jewish people if they didn't keep the Torah and he and one of them is Gus going into Exile which we had for for much my history and what really comes out of it is that we think of goas think of Exile and we associate it with two things we're out of our lands that's a terrible thing we we have we have the pogroms we have the persecution we're all very familiar with that but there's another aspect of Gus which we don't we're not even so familiar with and that is loss of control over the Torah and he's talking about how in this section how the Youth of the day which is I the the youth in the 19 1920s Germany are feeling disenchanted and disconnected from the Torah and he says were were we back in Israel in the good old days had we been back as the system was supposed to be in with aedin and even when it comes even with ders ofus so the M says we in gas are unable we we we're fixed we we're Paralyzed by theic system which has come to us because we don't have a son hedin and that is part of the punishment of gas were we back in Eric St with a Sanhedrin as it was supposed to be we would be able to as you said legislate and be matain and create dras according to the needs of the generation there's a there's a saer which says the same thing from a cabalistic perspective it's called the deel he's one of the earlier he talks near the beginning of his Parish on Torah he says he talks about how every generation has its own Shish of the okay don't ask me exactly what these these things mean um but it say every the nshama the overall nsh of each generation the spiritual mystical needs of each generation is a little bit different and part of the function of a Sanhedrin is to be tuned in to recognize the spiritual needs of the nas of that generation and to create tonas and Jas in order to maximize the or to meet the needs of that generation so that's a fascinating idea there's one other source I bring also it's called which is is a brilliant saer of of general rules of how the G how the ra basically gives you a basic structure of how to learn them of the different rules that apply to them and he says Under The Heading of Jas that one of the function of draas of the hermeneutic or the the the ways of of of uh mining laws out of the Torah is the newas were renewed and created according to the needs of the time throughout the generations for and recognizing what the generations needed they would then create a DHA which suited that and the big question always is well how much you when we're reading in the mission OFA said this based on based on one DHA rubish shim said that based on another DHA so how much is based on them looking at the the uh words of the Torah the the the the system that's come the the G Shas The the rules that have come down and how much is based on the needs of the generation and as we don't have a precise answer because many of the mishas we have don't don't give us the a full account of the of the the motive of the of the tan but there's one source which we which we do have which is very interesting which according to of the the r that do deal do deal with this and that is it's the last mishner in the first chapter of cus and the case that's being discussed is uh it's it's a discussion about how when a when a woman gives birth or has a miscarriage before she's able to enter the Bas of mikdash or eat from carbonous she has to bring a certain carbon I it's two col it's two pigeons one katas and one Ola and inevitably what happened the Jewish people at definitely time at the end of the second mdos they weren't all living close to the base of mdos some were out in bval some were further further away and not everyone came each each year even to the B mikd forel there'll be people that come every 3 years you know people in America now they they'll come here every few years they'll come and uh and and visit for yam and so they had these cases of these families that came in from Bell they hadn't uh been in your for 5 six seven years and in the intervening years the the uh the mother of the family had had either several children several miscarriages and she wanted to go to eat the carbon of the yam enter the base of mcdash and the question came up well does she have to bring just one set of carbon us for all of the obligations in the intervening period or does each separate birth require a separate carbon and this was this was something which was disputed among the tan think reia said that one set of caronus suffices for everything because it's really a purification process and just like going into the MVA it doesn't matter how many times you've come into contact with something impure you go into the Mikvah once and it purifies you other tanri said no it's more kin to carbonous and each time you you each time you have an obligation to Pro carbon you do a sin you have to bring an additional carbon so they argued about it the Sanhedrin sat and the Sanhedrin ruled stringently according to Y and benri so suddenly all these women had to bring multiple Coronas and each one I think was at Le was a couple of birds so what happened at the timear okay say better what happens with suddenly a surge in demand for for for carbonos the prices went way up all the traders of caronus it was a big time for the uh for the animal Traders bring animal along to the base of mdos bring your hers along the for the when the crowns are coming in to bringus and you can make a killing right so suddenly that the sanedrin has ruled just before yam that all these women have to bring many more carbas and they will put their prices right up so Shel who is the head of the sunedra at the time he came out to harab it he saw what was going on and he took a sh this is all recorded in the mishna and he said I'm going to take a that we're going to deal with this we can't we can't have all these women that been and they're being exploited by the uh by the Traders and they he reconvened Sanhedrin on the spot and they voted in accordance with riaa's more lenient version that one set of corbond would suffice for everything and it said the price dropped by quarter by to a quarter by three quarters so what we have here is to to me I mean I think Russy said it was Hara it was a oneoff it was a one-off decree but most Rim this was a was a full decree of the sedr and the now follows this that one set of konus is is required for everything but what we see here is the interaction between these two different systems both sides of the arguments saying that she should have to bring multiple gon or only one carbon they were both reached through application of regular dras you had Tan on both sides you had on one side on the other side and they are both using the system of jha's the system of the oral law which has come down from mosha and reaching conclusions on that basis yeah we also see the input of the needs of the generation the head of the Sanhedrin going out and seeing what's happening and saying you know what we have to revisit and we have to rule a different way so that's just there's one example we have of the interaction between these two different uh these two different parts so of these two right so now the next question comes up well how do we how do we know we've said we have this two tier system within Hal within the oral tradition parts of the oral tradition which are fixed they've come through from MOA they they are the core Parts which Define the the basic function of the MIT the Mitzvah they can never be Aus over them can be disputed they can never be changed no Sedin can never change any of this and then there's this second section of which we he called the in the finer branches the finer details which were handed over they were delegated almost left open to the of each generation to legislate via the courts and those things were deliberately left open to be defined to according to the needs of the generation to to build this connection um I've brought more sources on the sheet h m the beginning of chapter two of the rambam he he he he talks out in explicitly how if a Bas if Sanhedrin sits down and Das creates a new Hal via one of the midow a new and the Next Generation come along and they understand something differently this second Court can I think even must change the according to what they see in their eyes so we see this is very very important it's absolutely crucial to know which Halas fit which category um there's an example here is a missus that I bring there's AA which came up about Amon Moi there's certain certain Nations this isn't isn't really applicable anymore we don't know exactly which generation is which about am but there's they could not the males of am could not marry into the Jewish people even once they converted and there was Aus in the among the tan about whether this applied also to the females Amon presents in order to say it should be this this prohibition should not apply to the women and they say back to him he he presents to them this is they say back to him if what you're presenting is a law which has been transmitted through the generations from mosha nikel we accept it we we're not to challenge which has come all the way through from mosha we can't that's beyond our power we know that but if this you're telling us is your own creation it's your own logical conclusion from a you've looked at the sources and said this is what seems right to me if that's the case we don't find your so Bing we have a we can override it and therefore we're not going to accept what you say he says no what I'm telling you is a tradition that's come through the generations and if you look at the books that was the accepted and that is now the it came to us today so it's absolutely crucial for us to know and to determine which Halas we have especially if we're looking to set up us inh again one day but even in terms of learning the gamor and I'll show you in a minute why awareness of these two different categories when you're learning gamorra opens up so much it helps you understand so much of what's going on in the gamarra any questions before we start I I'll give a example of the MIT but any questions before that okay so sh is a pretty popular one we do it a couple of times a day and as far as we all know sh is we keep it it's written we have written in the T we have to say these words we have to teach these we do them in the evening when we when we lie down and again in the morning when we rise up as far as we all know and this is as we have it however when we learn through the Su the part of the gor which deals with these things suddenly it doesn't seem so clear Source here from bras 21A of taught so you're getting in late at night You' been to a wedding you're lying down in bed and suddenly did I say Krish or not did I Mar I I can't remember such a busy day we're dancing we're eating I I cannot remember if I if i' say or not you do not you are not obligated on on the basis of this doubt to go and read again the continuation says my timer one is the reason Kish teachers of yud the M of kishma is Rabin and as we know when you have a sopic when you have a matter of doubt in Rabin law we are lenient we go Lula as opposed to d sopic d we have a matter of doubt in Torah law we're stringent so Ruda seems to be teaching that sh is rabic how can that be we know it's it's written in the Torah and that's what the gar challenges M says well how can you say the MIT we have it there in the PK you got to say these words when you lie down the kishma of the night over and the of the morning answered on behalf of no that is only referring to reciting words of Torah in general so that would seem to be Torah law and it seems to be according TOA and according to others the the specific words of the passage that was that we end up reciting is only rinic well how do we unpack all this how do we put all this together based on all the principles that we've that we've uh learned together so far we have that introduction of the rambam to the mishna and he's taught us that anything which came to us miss from mosha from SII there could be no makus over there could be no dispute so if we are now going to apply this principle of the rambam to this passage of gamar about Kisha we're forced to say that the Mitzvah Kama at least saying over the passages of Shar that we have in our sedor that did not come from Moshe that was seem to be the conclusion that we get however it's not so simple because what we do find what what is Undisputed did is there is some form of Mitzvah to recite words of Torah that everyone agrees all everyone in the gar agrees there some kind of Mitzvah but not everyone agrees on the content of the mitzah the details to recite specifically so now if we if we look at together we look now the different layers of this par this and the let's see if we can build something up so we've got that the basic the basic meaning of the words the Torah so say taught them all these words in terms of its basic meaning the basic shut level they're just telling you you should be involved in words of Torah the whole time as often as you can whether you're walking in the street whe you're sitting in your house morning evening anytime you have spare you have a spare moment don't of sit there scrolling on your phones but open open a mishna do something useful with your time create a connection to Hashem in that moment that's the general meaning in terms ofat however what is Undisputed what we see from the gamorra is absolutely Undisputed is that there's also some kind of Mitzvah say of it's not and specifically those two words not when you're walking in the street and sitting your house there's no MIT to go around walking in the street every day reciting Torah there's a spefic Mitzvah in the evening and in the morning to recite words of and that's Undisputed so if that is Undisputed and it's a central feature of a Mitzvah we would applying the principle of the ramban would say that is something which has come to us through the M through the tradition from mosha so what we can be pretty sure about is that there was definitely a Min of to recite some words of T every morning and every evening the idea presumably is to bookend your day in Torah that even if you have a day which is very busy you have to run around and do other things if everything you do is in bookended in the context of Torah that has some kind of influence over your day we have similar ideas in terms of the the Bas of mdos certain things which are done in the morning in the evening bookends the day gives a certain meaning certain significance what about K the way we have the Mitzvah today so I would this is the way I understood it was that at some stage th HED would have looked around and said well what are the needs of the general generation we think that there's a certain weakness in terms of accepting the Yoke of Heaven the unity of God and therefore we are now going to fix what was previously a an open mitzah to recite any passages of Torah morning and evening we're now going to fix this as specifically the passage of K Shar and we can they can do that because as we know as we've seen the Sanhedrin a fully formed Sanhedrin an authorized Sanhedrin have the power and authority to legislate even within Torah law and the question the gar is do they legislate that as Torah law or Rabin Law Without get to the significance when I first learned this sugu and I had these conclusions I thought it was a bit radical I wasn't so sure about it and then I looked at some of the commentaries and have a look here the P Yeshua shakas is a similar thing and he says on this on this of he says what what is the meaning what is the intention of this so he's also troubled by this IDE of krishma being rabic he quotesa which I couldn't find inside but take it from the panua that the one that says this is because it it's it's understood by him that that the says you recite these words in the morning in the evening it's not there's a requirements to recite specifically this of morning and evening on terms of the basic meaning of the Torah even if you were to recite a different passage of the Torah morning and evening that would be enough however how the stages came along or whatever stage it was I'll explain to you why I think there sometime during the B sheny um they came along and they made a ruling at certain stage that no we are using our power and authority as a Sanhedrin to say no it's not open anymore we want you to read specifically The Punisher of why because the felt that we need to reinforce we look at the need generation as you said and we need to reinforce the accepting the the Yoke of Heaven once the have done that we are now no longer able to F the Mitzvah in any other way we have to read if we read other P of the Torah we haven't fulfilled the Mitzvah and that is the power of aedin the power of a c now why do I say this was probably done during sometime during B Shen because there's an interesting phenomenon we have with K Shar when we we have kma we we recite every day we don't just say Shama what do we say along with it after before and after we have BR over um and what the we say just before normally normally the you have over a Mitzvah relates to the actual Mitzvah that you're doing however what do we say when we there's no what is it all about which is paraphrasing the words the we should be speaking in your statutes we should be rejoicing in your word of Torah this BR over is all about t Tor the bras of as far as we know were formulated by the unshaken zakola the men of the great assembly this go right back to the start of B sheni maybe even earlier but definitely the start of B sheni so it would seem that at that time when the UN were were formulating the broas of the the wasn't it wasn't a Mitzvah was a Mitzvah of and at some point the Sanhedrin sat down and they limited the Mitzvah to and the paragraphs with it but they did not want to change the the uh formula of the maybe they weren't actually able to change it's a separate discussion the form of the bras which whicha put together and that's why we have this we call it a dissonance but it's it's this little bit of a disconnect what used to be a broad mixst of T Torah into cre sh and to extend that the the MIT the over there's a discussion in I think in certain circumstances if you don't say your in the morning but you do say the BR of over Torah you already fulfilled your br T and you don't go back and recite the Brad of T again check whether P exactly when it applies and doesn't apply because it's a bit of a complicated Su but there is that concept that this BR over shma represents a br of T there's one other source connecting the mitzah of kishma to the basic minimal um obligation of T Tor this a gamar I bring over the page so this is taught in the name of even if a person did not recite any Torah in a day except for the sh of the morning and evening he has fulfilled the the the obligation of not having Torah absent from his mouth the very minimal daily obligation of of tat Tor is represented by the mid of bookending your day in Torah and to me this is this is an idea of how being aware of how the system of TOA Bal works these two different categories things which are fixed which can never change which are Undisputed and come through the generations from M raenu and the finer details which were given over to the and to the Sanhedrin to legislate they are very important to know in terms of studying and understanding gamor see how everything fits together and they will also be when we have a bid and sanin and everything very soon the saned the first thing San will need to be to be able to determine is which parts of Hal they are they have the authority to change for example K according to what we've seen the San will be able to sit and say well our generation we're fine on we're fine except in the oak of heaven but we need to strengthen a different area of has therefore they could change or they could add other parts of the Torah to the m OFA but never be able to come along and say um we're going to change the Mitzvah to be three times a day or once a day or not at all because the basic structure of being a Mitzvah to recite Torah morning and evening that is something which we know has definitely come through from mosha and that's something which no one could ever change as part of the oral tradition which is off limits even to a fully authorized Sanhedrin so yeah that's just an example from the first section of my book of how awareness of the basic underlying principles of gar and toal can really open up and and uh change the way you learn gamar thank