Sinas Chinum, Acapella, and Tisha B'Av - Judaism Without Apologizing - Rabbi Ron Yitzchak Eisenman

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Judaism without apologizing. Today I am standing in front of congregation Havis Israel in Payek, New Jersey. A major major shaw for the thousands of people that live here and also the spiritual home of Reb Ranitlak Eisenman. You might know Rabbi Eisman as the rabbi who transformed the Shaw from one that is only, you know, a daily minion to a sh that has over 40 minion a day. Or perhaps you read his Mishbaha column or his books, the elephant in the room or for everything a time or a schol with a view. Asmin has been a leading rabbitic figure in the Jewish world for many years and is often the clearest voice on major hashkafic issues. Today we had an amazing conversation focusing on the three weeks and we talked about and we also discussed and we talked about the role of a schol in people's lives amongst many other things and it was a great great conversation and I think you'll appreciate how is close to three decades of experience really shines forth in everything he says. So whether you're part of a Israel or a reader of Mishbah or someone searching for spiritual bravery, you are in for a powerful conversation. No fluff, just Tyra truth and some good old-fashioned common sense. So let's get right to it. This is Judaism without apologizing. In a world where everyone seems to have not just a microphone but a megaphone, the voices of Argim or Rabanim and Russia yeshiva far too often seem to get lost in the noise. This podcast is here to change that. I'm your host Hill Eisenberg. Join me as we sit down with our nation's leaders as they address the Ashkafic challenges that matter most without the fluff and without the drama, with truth that doesn't flinch. Buckle up, cuz this isn't your typical podcast. This is Judaism Without Apologizing. >> Thank you very much, Rabbi Asma, for coming on the Judaism without apologizing podcast. >> Thank you very much for having me, Rip Hill. >> Yes. So, you have been a leading rabbi for many decades at this point. and you've been at the forefront of the North American uh rabbitic world and I think you have a a pulse of the people and I want to dive right in with the following. Right now it's the 3 weeks and I think for a lot of people it's a little bit difficult because you know that there's something we should be feeling and doing and yet it's hard enough to have a meaningful life as a Jew juggling work and kids and Tyra and fela and then on top of it I have like to like muster up the emotional energy of the abias which I really have nothing to do with I don't know that much about What piece of advice can you give to normal, regular working people to make the 3 weeks a little bit more authentic and real and connect to something that happened thousands of years ago? >> I mean, number one, a little bit I I question the premise that I'm one of the leading North American rabbis. You know, I I I think we should make clear from the beginning. I don't represent anyone except myself. I'm not any sort of organizational rabbitica advisor for anything. And uh whatever it is, the views on myself or myself alone. So I just want to be clear about that. You know, if you look in the in the writings of the of the great Bali Musa, you look in Dash Torah and the the printed writings of the Alfelm, it's amazing how many there are on the topic of of to feel another person's paint has many pieces a lot of the ideas being stressed and restressed. So to the alter of Kelm. So apparently again I didn't make a scientific study but it seems that I would imagine something perhaps 30% of of the in there are circle back to somehow no so the fact that it exists an awful lot besides emphasizing how critical it is I don't think it's wrong to extrapolate that it's also a problem meaning getting to that level you if you when you walked into my sho was a big sign the coffee cup stops here. Reason for that people started to bring not in learning times monthly but in domining when people are domining I noticed people started to bring coffee cups in. So it's not our discussion but if there's a sign that says no coffee in the shul that means that there was an issue that people uh were bringing coffee in. If there's a sign no talking in probably there were people who were talking in it doesn't have to be a sign no you know so so too when we see that uh the great Mus stressed this a time and time again they they must have felt that it's a it's a difficult task and that's also a lesson to recognize that it's a difficult task besides what you you mentioned the the the the time lapse from the hurban to now. But honestly, and it it really it makes minimal difference whether you're up on all the news and whether you have a smartphone or don't have a smartphone. You watch clips which are coming out. You don't watch clips. reality is is that in our time I mean we get just an example which was certainly horrific but it didn't really impact on the Jewish community certainly was something our as human beings we feel with the floods in Texas you just from a it was an unbelievable horrific tragedy I mean young innocent you know the girls of camp of the camp there were literally washed away but besides the tragedy when you hear that and then the next day they're here is about this conflict in the war and in any war leaving out Israel now. So unfortunately we're flooded often with you know the the worst news which unfortunately can cause a person to be a little numb. So one thing honestly I think in their great wisdom I think they anticipated that one way is like to say for the is always polius outer actions can impact on the inner actions phrase you know with the eating comes the appetite so it works but maybe in midos as well the idea of not listening to you know music or orchestrated music not shaving not getting haircut that's at least a start and then we get to the nine days and no eating meat there's laundry these things do impact on mostly all our lives in you know to a certain extent that's one two perhaps one is to recognize there is a challenge that's I think number one is recognize there is a challenge number two would be to you know sometimes we look for I'm not saying obviously sometimes is a necessity but um you know if it's a difficult situation even that which is usually just number two can be moved to the list to number one priority but um I uh sometimes but nevertheless um it's a struggle that a person has and we should focus on what Kazal said besides that I think that uh you know if you bring it closer to home I think it'll make to greater impact. It's if you if you know the story of someone who uh look we know one step more back the brisker of when he asked should they make a separate uh commemoration Yamas a day of mourning for the holocaust and believe that it's recorded in writing in a number of places. I think frankly it's in the arts school kinos for tish I think you'll find it there uh in one of the keynotes I think it's I think perhaps when they have the keynotes in the arts school kinos for the nope for the holocaust so they bring down that brisk grov was asked and the brisk answered that everything is a continuation is a straight line from the kbayas the gullis was which followed and therefore all the subsequent Jewish tragedies obviously the Inquisition, the Kummanitzki program and the programs in Europe and of course unfortunately climaxing in the Holocaust and even in our time horrific massacre which occurred on October 7th, 2023. We have to realize that's all connected. That's all one large Jewish tragedy and in that way unfortunately hello I think how can you not be connected and there's so many real life stories that we can access today of people if you look at it as one continuous so by hearing somebody who survived the October 7th by recognizing the pain pain of the Bibbis family the the man who lost his wife is two children. Honestly, how can you not feel pain? How can you not feel pain? >> So, let me let me zone in on that. Is majority of the yearning of the Bikash because of our physical pain. Meaning, for example, and the times of the bias, they were also yearning for Msiah, but they had as close to utopia as as could be. They had the B mikdash. They had I think world peace and yet they were still yearning for the for Msiah to come. Um is there an aspect of yearning for Msiah and the ultimate redemption? Nothing to do with pain and destruction but simply for Hashem's glory to come upon us once again. And is that completely abstract and reserved for the mubalim or regular normal people could also attain that level where in addition to all the pain and suffering I am yearning for Msiah not just because of the pain and suffering and because my uncle has cancer because somebody had six miscarriages and all that's going to come to an end when the base is rebuilt. In addition to all that Hashem's glory is going to reign once again. Is that attainable to regular normal people or or am I even right in in in that's part of the yearning? >> I don't think I don't think you're wrong that that's part of the yearning. I also think each person can achieve some sort of uh can achieve that yearning that additional yearning as you said not just to have the build bring the base mdish but also to have that uh gil or whatever you want that that relationship that msiach hopefully will bring about and for instance as you know the kazones points out in amuno that when we're dealing with those aspects of yiddishkite are not uh quant quantifiable in terms how much matzah I should eat if you ate a kaz you fulfilled the requirement if you eat less than a kaz you didn't fulfill the requirement what what did you do part of the mitzvah whatever but know if the lul is has to be a certain size if it's not that minimal size it's not a lulv it's a disqualified a lulv but with regard to herges those aspects of Judaism that involve midos or whatever how we want what we want to characterize for which that's what is referencing there and you know he says a person who's a mean a person even he has minimal it's not one person could have a higher you know we all have a body temperature but you know that mean that doesn't mean we're sick you know if it goes above a certain level so we all can feel it. But I don't I don't think it's it's necessarily relegated just to some elite spiritual few. But I I just want to take a little bit back for a moment. I you know it's interesting that you mentioned this because it always hits me very very very strongly on tishov the whoever it was maybe was however whoever we consider instituting the idea of kinos obviously we have kinos in there by people of different times I mean the people who wrote the kinos we have you know may you know which has to do with the Inquisition. Obviously, these people live later in historical time. But nevertheless, if you look in the kinos, which is the accepted liturgy that's accepted all over to be recited on tishov, there's nothing in the kinos almost at all except some what we call consolation. There's nothing in the keynotes itself that talks about you know except as the cancellation of the building of of having this messianic era of having some sort of Msiah in a general way the the 90% more perhaps of the of the words of the kenos are one thing and one thing only to recall the pain I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves you know when when we're looking of course we all like honestly what you're more talking about is more reflective I think in the literature of rash that should you know the idea is not which is reflected there it's the idea of that should return so that's something we always should should want that you know you should rule over the whole world in your honor and simultaneously that should be part but I'm not sure I'm not sure that yearning for that messianic I mean honestly what you quoted ostensibly there was no tish obviously the I'm smell so and even during the second basis you know I imagine that whatever tish wasn't way we wasn't imagine also wasn't wasn't a fast day I would imagine so I I think the three weeks the tishab is is not a weak but um I'm not sure that the focus is a messianic focus more than any other time of the year >> so here's another question for you. What is your take on modern-day ac capella music because many of it much of it sounds pretty much like music. Do you think that's a problem? Should people refrain from that? Is it usher to listen to it? Is there a is there a litmus test or a line in the sand where I say, "Okay, this sounds so close to music that it's defeating the whole purpose." Or is it also a reflection of a culture where we don't we're just checking boxes, you know? So, it's like it's technically not music. So therefore it's fine. You know what I mean? What would you say on on that? >> It's an interesting question. I appreciate that question. First I want to state clearly for anyone who listens is that um I'm not here to ask in every sh that person they should cons consult their competent RV and as far as practical I want to be clear that that's not the purpose of our discussion and no one should quote it in the way that I'm getting I'm deciding a hikic issue rather we could discuss the parameters and as as related but the specific question has to be asked to a specific RV uh for whatever the reason but nevertheless the ac capella music I think it has to be divided into two areas you mentioned you know it sounds just like it but I've checked off the box so there is an aspect in Judaism certainly in halaka of the of quantifying of the parameters of the mitzvah um I know that there are many people here and Arshul who grew up in reformed synagogues and they told me how one of them not all I'm not sure I'm not familiar with the practices but that growing up in this reformed temple that when they blew chauffeur they actually blew uh they actually bought trumpets as well so more of some sort of orchestration of trumpets with chauffeur etc etc and there was few chauffeur together and it was more of a now not going through the you know issue of traal mushami you're hearing whatever you're hearing. But I think we realize that even if their hearts were in the right place, it could be that, you know, they're not fulfilling the mitzvah of of chauffeur. And frankly, be honest, we both know that, you know, the idea that if it I don't mean this to be facitious. I really don't. But the idea that you sort of saying if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, it must be a duck. That's not always true. I mean, honestly, let's leave something as maybe more not as timely anymore as playing ac capella music, but the idea you go to any wedding anywhere from Williamsburg to Lakewood to wherever and at the end of the wedding, there'll be coffee and quote unquote milk. But I mean, there's something white there, which is uh liquid white, and it seems to do the exact same job to the coffee. So you'll be able to ride back from Lakewood to Brooklyn as the coffee you had in the morning uh with your uh you know with with your milk which that you you know you took out of the fridge. So uh but we know that it's not milk. So you see that it looks like milk more or less tastes like milk. I mean exactly but it does enough close and it does the job of milk. I mean whatever we call coffee crema it does the job but it's we all do it we all after we had meat or this so technically I do want to say again we're not doing but certainly from a just checking the boxes there I don't I don't want to belittle that into saying like I say there are times things can look in one way but many the reason is because kazal didn't want you act obviously to have milk if you're not having milk it's okay so now we have to transfer it to the music part. So if you're right, if the reason we don't listen to music, if that is the reason that we shouldn't get the being, you know, I don't know, I don't want to get too far a field, but let's be clear. I think it's important that you know the gabus which discusses the and even in moist in the third part I don't believe there it ever says explicitly that there's some sort of a prohibition of listening to music. I don't believe anywhere that the goar or the rishonum spoke directly. Now again there are much better people you know no sources I' I'd love to hear but I I believe it's only a 20th the idea the only idea of recorded music which really we're dealing with is only a 20th century phenomena was no such thing I don't know when records first came out I mean no nobody's talking about going to a concert which even that that's I I believe if I'm correct the idea of music was extrapolated from the prohibition of getting married and since marriage which usually had some musical accompaniment which and the reason we don't get married is because it generates a sense of skha and perhaps the greatest generator of siba or the one of the major facilitator of ska was the musical accompaniment the orchestra orchestra orchestr accompaniment so therefore it was an extension on when music became a listening in and of itself they became pro I don't know in the rishonim's time I don't know if y caro in his I'm ever heard of listening to music. It's very possible music was relegated specifically and exclusively to occasions such as a uh wedding or or what have you, but I'm not sure it existed in an independent. So I think it's a fairly I think it's important to recognize the in the halikic scheme of thing. I think it's a fairly new question of the last 100 or 200 years. Meaning the what what do we do with recorded music? How do we how do we relate first of all music outside a wedding and then second of all removed recorded music and then third of all how do we relate now to quoteunquote music which is not musical is not accompanied by so again I'm not sure and I don't know if we want to go down that road but I'm not sure if the the fact that it it feels like music it sounds like music I can't tell the difference between it and orchestration well maybe the conclusion to be join is that therefore recorded orchestrated music is also permitted. I'm not sure why you know you're going with a premise that listening to recorded music which has some sort of background based instrumental background is definitely prohibited. I'm I'm not 100% sure you know that >> even that should be even that should be mutter. >> No, I'm not I'm talking about what's not mutter. I'm not talking about user I'm saying that look now we'll go back to me personally you you're get a lot of calls every day coming in right now as we speak but um there are many people which had something I think it's important to recognize this something that before the last 40 years was impossible to imagine to a certain extent and that is the idea idea of of being constantly the ability to be constantly part of music and music becomes part of some a lot of people's daily lives. I'm not dealing with the community but I'm thinking individuals. I get a lot of calls, a lot of calls from people who are suffering or struggling with mental health issues that music is important part of their repertoire. And if we're going to necessarily take a stand that you know even ac cappella music is you that that's 100% music there are a lot of people out there who I would even call it therapeutic music becomes a part of therapeutic part of our lives and um I just think it's more of an exploration the idea of listening to music in the privacy of your home or in the privacy of your car. I just want to tell you anecdotally, Hill. I remember somebody came to me and they had to drive to the mountains, which is not uncommon this part of the year. And they had a uh two or three jobs and they said, "Oh, I I ended up listening to talk radio on the whole way up and down because the Shia would put me to sleep in Jewish music. I wasn't allowed." So, is that really what bring you closer to Hashem, listening to whatever, right-wing, leftwing, middlew silly people calling up and making all types of outrageous claims from, you know, these talk shows. It's hard to believe that that's uh that's the proper. So, so let's say because I the psum do discuss if somebody's exercising or for kids. Let's say a regular guy, he's not struggling mental health. He wants to be a good But he sees ac cappella comes on. Ac cappella is there. He he doesn't have to listen to it. It's enjoyable. And there's multiple album albums he could choose. And some are really really really basically identical to music and some are not. Some are just like, you know, vocals. Should one strive to stick with the ones that are I wouldn't call it less quality, but you know, more noticeably ac cappella or they're all good. Like you said, if it's not real milk, even though it looks like milk, it's fine. I think you're you're correct and again I want to stress again that this is not a a a discussion which was going to have which not you know your your your questions answered it's not a call in mind before pes have your questions answered by an orthod that's not what I'm doing um and every question has to be asked to a competent to a competent ro however since you frame the question in that for framework if they have 10 pieces of music to and and whatever. Should they strive to the ones that are ac cappella over ones that are have instrument background or accompaniment? >> No, they don't have but it sounds like they have. It would probably look I would imagine since like you said correctly those who deal with the the minutia of hala do again I haven't recently made a survey of the contemporary post game each one what they hold about ac capella versus that however if one does do that and recognize there are competent wellrecoognized postgame who are strict mahmir in this regard so yeah always always a person you should try to be fulfill you know yot holiday is try to cover all their bases and if you cover four why cover three for sure okay so let me zone in on this the base of mikdash was destroyed because of sinum famously or one of the reasons what is because it it could sometimes I feel like be used as a club to just you know hit whatever somebody something somebody doesn't like it's just it's sin is there a definition um of what is and what a ham is. Can you lend some thought onto that? >> Well, my observation is and I include myself in this observation that is almost always that which is perpetrated by my adversary and never what is perpetrated by myself. That's number one. Is almost always used as a as an accusatory finger against my adversary. That's always the case. It's always that's what meant. Others are always guilty of sin. It's very rare that somebody would get up be it to themselves or be it rabbi or any yeshiva who would get up and just announce that um I think we've all been guilty of sin. B because we did A, B and C. We acted in this way towards ABC to this other people, this community, these people and so that I mean I'm not saying it not tongue and cheek but obviously I'm not answering your question but what I do think is hopefully insightful in that comment is that the first thing is let's look in ourselves. Let's try to define sinister for ourselves. How can I be better? How can I be better? So exactly what is of course we know that the focused a lot etc. Look, I believe the sinum is when I would hope when the sinner becomes well I think it means things. I don't think it's you know it's truly it's a broad enough term to have I think a lot of inclusions but one thing in particular which I think is very common is confusing an issue with the person meaning when I this perhaps the sin is when I I actually have hatred s we'll use kazal's word s for someone for their position when that position hopefully is not crossing a deadline. What I mean to say obviously if if somebody's threatening physically you yourself that already can't just separate the person from from their threat person and the threat are one but let's just say for instance the following let's just say we take a very uh let's take this issue that you mentioned before it's a nice segue I'm a rabbi that I believe I'm not necessarily saying I am hypothetical I'm a rabbi who believes has gone through the sa very Well, which I haven't, but somebody's gone through this well and they come to the conclusion that ac cappella music is prohibited. All acappella music is just if those who don't want to listen to any music during the three weeks should also not listen to a capella should go 3 weeks no music. However, my neighbor who's also a very prominent ro maybe it's and he did the same research and he came to the conclusion just the opposite that ac capella music quote unquote checks the boxes and therefore he said it's not music they known no rabbitic sources ever included that in prohibition of or you know the idea of three weeks. So hopefully in that debate if I start to put him down if people got telling me you know what do you think of Rabbi so and so I say you know he's a terrible human being I hate him I start not talking to him that's horrific meaning or or every everything he represents his is you know I I can disagree with him respectfully I can it doesn't have to become personal so often things that go on in life we look at them as personal And that's what I guess the idea of sin is meaning it's free. Free meaning it's it's s which you know doesn't have to be. And I think if you think about expresses ourself in in so many so many things so many things we don't we believe this person did this intentionally. They didn't do it intentionally. We don't know you know why they were late why why they they missed something whatever it was. So I think the sisum too often is mention the orthodox world too often do you know someone will call me and they'll say you know you know do you hold from this rabbi or not now if they're calling me about let's say a certain hashka and I believe that hashka generally has deficiencies okay I guess it's proper for me to say I personally would not rely on that that's one thing but it's another thing if let's say that I know there's a rabbi who let's just say I off but if I knew a rabbi I would say ac capella music is totally permitted or ac capella music is totally prohibited and because of that stance which it becomes that I don't hold for the whole person there's someone I don't hold from these are groups I don't I mean you hear it broadstroking um people and broadstroking individuals and groups I think is a big problem >> so h what's the balance between being passionate about your Messiah, your hashkafa, your mahalik and your aid and not getting into sort of cultural to territorial hottiness. Meaning, have we done a good job in our society of being very proud to be or labavich or wu or yivish or svari. So my question is what what would you say is a good way to balance sort of pride in your miser and your hashkafa and what you stand for and not let that pride become territorial cultural hottiness. Meaning have we done a good job in our society where I could be a proud or litak or sardi or labavaturure or wu guy but also respect other people or has it come to territorial meaning there's got to be a balance what would you say is the best way to strike that balance >> it's a very good question I mean to a certain extent almost by definition almost by definition. Let's just say we we live in Lakewood, correct? We live I buy a house next door to you. And being in a community like Lakewood, I'm sure there are multiple options for me to choose to be my Mhammed feel my main place to d. So you choose Y and I choose Shul X. I show B me Y. You choose whatever more of this whatever minion that for whatever reason it meets here. Now if it's one thing if it's just you know where I dab in but if I become part of that kahila to a certain extent it's natural to for me and it's a not a bad thing could be a very good thing to think we're you know we're the best shul in town meaning I mean a person should take pride in their should take pride in their you know their their X they should we're proud good we're loyal we're good I'm a person should be proud proud God of of the rasha and part of that is to feel a certain sense of of good you mentioned the balance. So the the issue is to recognize I don't want to I think you're asking a very hard thing because frankly when we look at our rebi or look at our spiritual leaders I think there is an element to think you know this is the rebi it's hard to get to that balance but if I can give a crude example they give me if the analogy isn't correct but if I give a crude example but you know sometimes you're going out to eat as the family so okay the family should decide which restaurant we'll be will be comfortable Let's just say you're at a workplace and there's one person there numerous places people can eat at during lunch some go fleshik some go milk some go parav some go snack some go full meal you don't think that you know my since I had fleshik I'm superior to you since I went to eat pizza I'm better I went to eat falafel I'm better mean you you understand it's better for you at that time it's better for you you know that base to satisfy your needs I think we should look at that honestly in our groups as well. Meaning if I'm part of Y, I should recognize that there's parts of Y which speak to me and therefore but I understand just like there are people like Milik and some people like Z speaks very well to those people who you know resonate it resonates by them. they have more of a particular penant for for that. I think that's one way of recognizing that there are shim like to get to Torah. Now the Gabbara says that the reason one of the reasons you allowed it to leave is to learn by a certain Rebi. So says but then there is of learning by a certain Rebi and you can get a new rebell. So answers not everybody hits it off with the same. So if we would take that lesson to life that kumar that would be wonderful meaning I love my rabbi I love my rashiva I love my you know this mentor I've chose for myself but I recognize the fact that other rebel who speak in a different tone or a different style or one stresses one stresses medish one this stresses this one stresses that so I can respect that different people that's a good thing because the rama writes the beginning of hus kosha parts the fam shaos kafo Sam shonos the no human faces are identical no human personalities are identical either >> so do you do you think that there's a point where inclusivity too much inclusivity is it could be harmful where we are saying to a particular group or style or mahalik that listen everyone's got their style but it's sort of a group that's promoting very lukewarm yishkai and it might even be detrimental it's taking people and slowly removing them away from serious hardcore rolling up your sleeves a hashem is there ever a point where we have to tell our children that no I I don't appreciate you I don't think we should go there or there's no like like you said it's also a very good question a difficult question it depends actually was on the age and the personality of the child obviously although I said you know if you notice that I mentioned said the person should be proud of their rebum their derk their hashkaf I think that's important we all know whatever it is which has taken the world there's bell s there's lobavich there's g there's stolen you know all types of different I don't think anybody advocates you should tell your child on if it's Monday we're bells if it's Tuesday we're samur if it's Wednesday we're lababich if it's Friday if it's Thursday we're air Friday is for Stalin. It's ridiculous obviously and then you know and then shabas were BMG and Sunday were more YU' be ridiculous. I think you you just create a a confused child that you're from a confused parent. So I think it's beautiful if I believe in something you believe in a certain rebi you'd want to uh convey what you found meaningful what you found so helpful what you found so beneficial in your life you want to convey that to your children no different than if you and your wife have decided that a uh a protein richch diet is beneficial to your health and a low carb diet is is also beneficial to your health. Now, it doesn't mean you put down the neighbor for often eating uh many carbohydrate carbs in their diet. And it doesn't make you feel, you know, you don't have to put down the neighbor because they give more shabas snacks, sugary snacks that you and your wife don't approve of. you don't have but you would like to instill in your children the same beneficial feeling that you feel that eating in that certain way has given you in your wife well spiritually if you've received a benefit from a certain person from a certain rebi from a certain rasha certain spiritual person well you'd want why would you would want to instill that into your children and since that's the foods you know so yeah I think we We have a it's part of our parental obligations and privileges. However, I think there also has to be a recognition that when I turn when the child turns 18, 19, 20, whatever that is, I think there has to be a recognition that none of us are clones of our parents. None of us are clones of our parents. Whatever this person's father, you know, was this way, this person's mother was this way. People certainly have to find their own their own niche. Sometimes it's very similar to the parents. Sometimes it's not. I think as long as you mentioned is there a group to be discouraged. I'm not going to rule out there might be if I happen to believe I mean if I happen to be I don't want to mention name but I think we're aware of that there's a certain Jewish group which we refer to as a cult which been located various places in Canada, South America, very Central America. many many greater people than me have uh have spoken publicly that the you know this this group is not within the big tent a lot and I'm saying it very euphemistically they they're not they're not benefiting they're they're totally have corrupted anything Jewish that obviously and to be honest I don't have to go that radical yeah I do believe I do believe that if you were raised let's say and and whatever a certain see there's certain rasha so yeah there's nothing wrong with explaining at one point to the child maybe why you think this resonated by you and I guess you could say why there are concerns with the other movement which I had and you may have as well but it should be done without sa without if the group is in the big tent I think let's just say for instance I can't really try to move away from deems but let's say the group is officially orthodox but uh their interpretation of orthodoxy is whatever it is I want to be clear I want to be very clear it could be both to the left and to the right I mean to say that a person can believe there are certain elements of orthodoxy which um more lenient let's say or have with regard to a Torah only approach they believe that a person should embrace secular studies perhaps even on a higher So person is allowed to explain to their child why they believe that approach may not bring them the most benefit. If the child after researching the issue still feels that this place is better for them. So then sometimes a parent should recognize the child has an independent view and they perhaps should respect that. But growing up there's nothing to say. Just like for instance there are certain groups of on the quote unquote right which may d at 10:30 in the morning or 11 in the morning start shakra is very late this starts very late after of the father was brought up to be very careful in there's nothing wrong with telling the child I prefer you wouldn't d there because they according to they're not necessarily filling fulfilling the mitzvah of you know the mitzvah of in the proper time frame. But again if later on in life the child would be would feel a sense of gravitation towards this whatever it would be perhaps the child then there has to be I think a recognition that the child has independence and to perhaps respect that view. So let me go to the opposite extreme. Instead of territorial boundaries that have perhaps gone too far or that balance, what would you say to a lot of people that they don't have one central shaw? They dab in here and there and there. There's no major rabbitic figure in their life. They're 10th grade rebby that they used to be close with. They're now 45 years old. And they don't have any particular thing to be proud or to plant their flag. Is that a good thing? What would you say to somebody who who he's he wish he had a a reba or a or a rav who's watching out intimately or a rashiva or someone he just doesn't have it and therefore he sort of floats. What would you say to such a person? So we'll start off by saying I believed in this famous ten commandments of marriage she tape my time was a set tape I think it's 636 or something like that something like that that famous tape you know he says when you get married you know you should have a r that'll you know like you said well a ramy could be too but a person should always have someone in their life that if the husband is acting improperly the wife should have a proper outlet for her to appeal to the husband should have someone who you know gives him proper guidance to certainly ask if it's codified in the mission of pelva certainly is an important part of Judaism to have some sort of spiritual mentor but I do think I do think here and um I recognize the fact that you know others perhaps can disagree and that's beautiful but um I think the key word rather is balance and that balance I think is shifting per individuals there are people here in my ual who communicate with me on a weekly sometimes daily basis and that's very good there are people who are also excellent Jews here wonderful Jews who communicate with me much fre much less frequently much less frequently not every person I mean there if a person has something which requires which requires then they need obviously a rub that much closer however if a person I don't think it's theoretically impossible that a person who was brought up which solid parents hakically obviously if they don't know something they should ask they should require but if if if they're basically they're they're solid ground I don't think you have to push everyone that I have nothing to speak about meaning my wife and I are happy we're do homework with them my wife's happy I'm happy if you're not sick why go to a doctor I'm not Sure. Like when you say, you know, like the person you began the story, I think I think the the elephant in the room or the implication behind the narrative that you uh so uh eloquently drew is that uh it's almost a a negative connotation to begin with. The man is a floater. Man is I go shakers here that. So the picture you're painting already is of a negative character of a person who seems to be uh anchorless. I think there are people obviously the idea of having a kavan that that's not necessarily connected with uh the idea of karav when I used to live in Washington Heights there was a anion there the auda it was actually called the base ysef but it was in the old auda building I think on 177th street 176th street and I think avenue if I remember correctly I'm not even sure and um there was no I think Rabbi Nobbe was I think the last official RV there and there were people who were down in there every day at every shabas every day and every shabas there were no RV to be had there but I think the idea of having a minion is important plus I think that are important that most most lives most couples just the the challenges and the vicissitudes of parenting of managing life and panasa and spiritual needs and all that. balancing that with life for most people it would be I think beneficial to have a person I think I think there's two things one is the person you described I think perhaps is could be improved by having a set place to d I think we all realize having pragmatically if you have a set place to d minion that people know to expect you so where are you today you know there's some sort of accountability but some sort of also appreciation I I think people should have a set minion. It's a positive thing. Besides that, I think that or could be the person without the set minion could still have a rebi and and the person who has a set minion could still not have a rebby. I think they're two separate issues. Most people, I think, having some sort of spiritual mentor that they check in with or checks in on them even better is beneficial. Since October 7th, there has been various degrees of responses from Kahilos around the world. And is there some hra or insight you can give to people who they they want to feel and and feel for the the soldiers and the people who are suffering, but they're busy and the sh that they go to, they they say, you know, one kapitul to him at the end. and they mumble the words while they're running out and that's the extent of their sort of association and feeling for it. Is there uh an insight you can give to suggest how we can emotionally feel connected while being so far away? >> October 7th as we realized was the greatest single tragedy to the Jewish people since the Holocaust. It was a tragedy honestly beyond beyond comprehension. Nobody in the world would have ever believed on Hashaba of that year of Toshin Palled that uh that by the time after maybe a day after but Torah that year there would be 1,200 Jews murdered many of them babies women unarmed civilians Holocaust survivors. So number one is the recognition of the event. Um everything that's worthwhile in life requires work. That's just how it is. The idea of no pain, no gain, I think is the is central to Judaism. No one ever said being a good Jew is going to be easy. And it requires effort. Obviously, we were all horrified when we first heard the news, but nevertheless, it requires effort to try to feel a person's pain. I want to say full disclosure and transparency that um I guess it's more closer to home by me uh is that my my son Tuvia who lives in Israel, he has been serving in the army for over 300 days since October 7th. He's married to Anhar with three children and besides the fact that I'm extremely proud of him and he hasn't missed a a day of learning the da and it's I give a I want to give a big shout to Rabansky and then is running his mara's dafomi. So I agree obviously it's very personal on my end for myself and besides that my my father was uh born in Israel born in Jalim which was in Palestine and I have a great deal of I mean it's an oldi family actually I have thousands of relatives there but even other relative I had relatives who have been killed in the fighting not in the massacre of October 7th but since then the cousin who perished in Lebanon actually in right by yam kiturn of of this past year. Um but even without you don't have to be that connected. I don't know I I I think a person it requires a little his boness as they say meaning of of focusing and thinking about went on which does require there are a lot of books from good books which have been written on that which person should make it their business to read them. You know it's interesting I remember when I was used to be teaching in BEakov this goes to uh 19 probably so maybe 2000 2001 I don't remember exactly when it was but when the nosby took over the one of the educational programs that he pushed forth was that there should be studies of the holocaust was termed therea into the biakos and the yeshivas and they designed the whole syllabus and now since then the all the basakovs and some yeshivas as well are more secular whatever Jewish history have studies of the holocaust why part of the reasons I think he felt that people weren't appreciation of of the the god of the of the sensitivity so you have to find out what happened and it requires work nobody here nobody you know any shul if the guy is sitting next to them his wife was the one they're saying for is having open heart surgery at that moment that was the guy who sits next to him with shu whether he knows him he doesn't know them but he knows that guy he would never mumble and run out just for the sake of feeling connected to that guy so there's a recognition of I have to exercise my aris muscle and recognize there there people who I can I can connect to. I mean there are people you can connect to. You can even see live interviews with some of these people even even secular publications. The New York Times published an article about I think a man Sharabi I'm not sure if I have the name who is a hostage who he basically uh starts now putting on fill in every day you know and he describes the losses in this when you read about these people in their real life and you can relate to them. So it requires work. I'm not denying that now if as we approach 22 months almost of of since October 7th 2023 I'm not denying the fact that it's a struggle to maintain our focus. Of course it is. Of course it is. And I don't I don't go forbid in any way cast accusations on any people who sometimes have to leave or there's press. I don't. But I do think we all can spend time of recognizing what happened. There are people who are alive in our time who are people that theoretically we could have known. I mean unfortunately every Jew is precious. There were many many Orthodox we call them a little off the Derek or struggling or whatever we want to call them. There were plenty of Orthodox families from the prime neighborhoods of Aris and us Benra who were lost in the Nova festival. I mean there were I personally know testify people decided not to go. This the person is a woman here in my shul whose daughter I she showed me the the screenshots of her daughter considering very strongly if she should go to the NOVA event where a man was asking her to go with her and at the end she declined because of Shabas and he unfortunately he he he lost his life he lost his life obviously many people in that I think that was the single most place where the massacre occurred So it is it is a necessity that a person should focus on that when they say tale from what I understanding I didn't see it I witness but a student a talmet of the patteru by rebell who we know is a one of the prominent real prominent Russian yeshivas in the world today certainly North America but my understanding is that rebell himself says the three after very slow every day he himself does it so when you have the getting up there and saying to him and you recognize him and say in Patterson, New Jersey saying to Hill and it's your rabbi hopefully that should move you. So that's something you can once you know that you can focus on that in your own but besides that things at home perhaps should be different things at home. I know a person very close to me doesn't like to uh have their deeds publicized but who stopped taking you know milk in their coffee since October 7th and they still don't that may be a small gesture but it's some reckoning some remembrance all in our lives shouldn't we think twice about can like you have to like the says after you have to build your house you have to plant you have to eat but even when you go out to eat perhaps don't have dessert that time at the restaurant besides the caloric intake which may not be necessitated but you know perhaps there should be some sort of talk to our precious some sort of recognition I'm I'm with you so it's a matter of paying attention it's a matter of focus it's a matter but unfortunately that's that tragedy me is uh that that that Sara I think is just last week you had every soldier is precious but you had four or five soldiers from they're all orthodox young men all tora mitzvah men every Jew is precious but somebody closer to us brings it home one was from Bish one who was killed null the s the the 86y old father the Babage family. I mean it was people from Bavish but I have two sons live in Bavish. I mean they went to the funeral. They knew the family. So these people it's not like we're not even talking about an event of the Holocaust. We're dealing with something that the survivors and the and the and the pe the victims are alive when with us. And uh by accessing their stories we remember in the das Torah is clear and this idea please don't believe me everybody go to the das Torah look up in the index do read the yourself go through them yourself if you don't if you're not able to do it find someone who who learnth with you but he writes the idea of you take 160th. He says that that's to be understood literally anytime you feel the pain of the Jewish people when there's a zardin when there's some sort of decree on the Jewish people. So every by feeling the pain by feeling the pain you actually as he writes gov says dino meaning the decree you was paid the bill was paid if you owe you need to pay your PSNG your electric bill you don't have the money doesn't care if I write the $100 or $1,000 check as long as they get their money so to speak write this please don't take my I don't want you to take my word I want you to read it yourself time and time again to learn learn these mamar he says that a person who feels the pain of another person he's actually he actually helps the he's he's decreasing he's minimizing he's decreasing he's paying back the debt which is demanding so person realize they're feeling the pain besides that it's one of it's it's you know feels our pain the tells us and and we know that you know we have I'm with you in the painu for a it's being a keshu like we started our discussion of you feeling the three weeks and feeling the and how do you feel like mashia or hashem's presence or whatever I mean feeling we can't be hash hem but we can act like hashem is no is not sensory perceivable. By definition the Ram writes that's one of the necessity of being a is that you're not perceivable in a sensory manner. But when we act like Hashem then we become when we act godly we become as close to Hashem. We go in his ways. Hashem feels our pain. Hashem is merciful. Hashem is we hope he's empathetic. We know he's empathetic. That's empathy. And if Hashem does it, that mean it's a good thing. And a good thing means it's better for us, better for not only that, it's mandated to be like that. We're mandated to be like Hashem. So the most Jewish thing you can do is to feel if he all you don't need me. All the great Bali Mus say that the person person Hashem is suffering more than we are. Hashem suffers more than we are when unfortunately his decree happens. Now the whole idea of vero it's the odyssey it's not for now but we know hashem feels our pain tells us right that the gar tells us in so that the brick sat on a had a brick under his feet and all the sheba that he should feel the pain heard their screamm hears our pain so it's hard things in life is hard a lot of things life and hard but doesn't mean that it's not to to to be a person should it's a it doesn't mean it doesn't mean that a person is is but you're not a you're not afraid to to exempt yourself from it but here I think to be honest with you it's person who doesn't unfortunately you know here I think it's it's that much more in front of us so I realize it's hard it's 20 months I realize we're living in America went but not on the front lines. I realize all that but I think isn't that what you know you know just say we had Rabbi Pesron speak here in the sh Sunday. So when I introduced him in Shivas Sarah Thomas when I introduced him the first thing I said was that Rabbi Crow when he had a stroke in a stroke whatever seven eight months ago I remember when he had a stroke and maybe more and uh when I spoke to him after the stroke he's a man 80 years old the first thing he told me was how's Tuvian Benudis how's my son Tuvian he knew his name I d for him every day wow he just had a stroke and that's the first thing he tells me. Obviously, he worked on himself to feel the pain of others. I know we live in a world where a part of that a part of probably the problem where biggest concern is what's for dinner? What are we eating for dinner? Where are we eating dinner? If we would think for a second, maybe just for a second here, what's the what's the the hostages, the 20 hostages in Gaza? What's the families who lost family members? What are they eating for dinner? How do they feel about dinner? So a first and foremost it's what Hashem wants us to do and I don't want to be selfish but it's going to be beneficial to us because the greater you act like Hashem closer you get to Hashem that's there's almost like nothing like it nothing like it plus it's unbelievably beneficial to Israel so it's something I think we we have to focus on very very and we should never ever fall into the horrific pitfall horrific pitfall of regulus of that it becomes just life you know everything you know that's the says everyone laugh I'm going to go home I'm going to go home I'm eat my food I'm going to go home I'm going to eat whatever I want to eat I'm going to eat and everything will be fine for me that that person it's horrific pain testifies that you did wrong that you didn't feel the pain says there was no pillow there was no cushion he says is in the middle I'm going to go ahead and sit in comfort this is literally the bread and butter the alf the base of of what Yiddish kite is about to feel the pain. So that's I think a very critical thing. It's very critical for us and I imagine the other way when we don't do that it's it's very detrimental to us as individuals and and as a claw yourselves a community. So it's something hopefully I try to work on myself. I try to do it the best I can to work on with tequila but uh I think we we have to fight against very strongly very passionately very passionately against just this having this just everything is fine now or you know life has returned to normal it hasn't and that's something I think we should keep you know front and center on the front burner constantly >> what closing can you give to the many thousands of people watching to stay on fire in 2025 as a YD. >> I think two things which are both opposite ends of the spectrum. Number one is to stay on fire is a is to look around at the what's going on in in the world around us not in our little bubbles of Lakewood Burough Park say Buny wherever they happen to be to recognize the fact a what's going on what's going on in Israel now is scary first of all the for leaving out not leaving out but putting for a moment on the side for just a moment the external threats of the war within Gaza with kamas which soldiers still being killed there still threats that going on from Haran and Lebanon who knows what'll happen but certainly there's no peace treaty and in Yehuda and Shamron and in the quoteunquote the occupied territories what's going on but internally internally in Israel It's the country is very divided. I'm not such a fan of these. It never was like this. I don't know how can anyone say never was like this. They could only know what they're in. But maybe an old depression even that how much of their memories know remember how their feelings were. But certainly we're living in a time when there's a huge huge schism in the Jewish people. You mentioned before there's there's a lot of sinner. There's a lot of hatred being thrown in all directions. A lot of hatred. And a person recognized that. And even within our communities, questions of person should vote in certain elections, not vote in certain elections. It's good, it's bad, it's it's terrible, it's it's right, it's the best thing. It's the worst thing. also became unfortunately a very divisions very very big division within our from community and within our country it's no secret we all saw how much you allowed yourself to see but we all saw the reaction of probably millions of people in our country who actually validated in the most strangest way that uh you know that Israel was the aggressor and is the aggressor which basically we all know it spread itself to anti-semitism has reached levels in this country which has led to death both in the left and the right both in the left and the right people say there are mass shootings I believe the only mass shooting directed at religious institutions were shuls I don't believe there any mass shootings in our in our country thankfully don't think there should be I think the only place of worship in this country that wherever you go sometimes I'm a guest speaker I'm a scholar residence all all over the country. Denver, California, uh, uh, Florida, Memphis, wherever I go, there's one common feature in all the sh. They all have armed guards. They all have armed guards. The mosque doesn't have an arm guard. Doesn't even have necessarily a combination lock. No churches. You can walk on Fifth Avenue, New York. You walk by St. Patrick's Cathedral. The door is open. Wide open. That's their whole point. The door is open. Doors open onto Fifth Avenue in New York City. Open. Try getting into a shul. Try a few doors down even. I'm not saying you should. It's a reformed temple, but you go to Temple Emanuel just a few blocks down from St. Patrick's there. Try to get in. Try to get in. You have to go through a metal detecting. You're back at TSA. You back into JFK airport to go in. >> Recognize that. Recognize how much Jewish money is being poured into these groups to be poured into armed guards. We're the only group. So all these factors I think that should give a person to remove their bubble, not to just stop in wherever the local eery is and what bagel place has the best bagel and what hamburger place makes the best hamburger, the best pizza in town, the best pie to to recognize the world around them and there's big problems. I think that can give a person a recognition or put them on a hopefully a flame to to recognize that what's going on in the world is scary. It is scary. Two, I mean, there's no doubt, unfortunately, we know it now that part of why Kamas decided to perpetrate that horrific massacre was because of the of the inner fight infighting going on and the divisions in in Israel at the time, which certainly were a distraction to the security forces. Number two, I think can also give a person is which is frankly the other side of the coin but equally as justified in this balance. I mean on one hand I don't want to say we're living in the worst times ever, god forbid, but I do want to say we're living in probably more challenging time to be a Jew than in a lot of other times certainly in this country. On the other hand, we're also the beneficiaries of unprecedented braha. unprecedented braha. I mean, there's probably never in Jewish history been a place like Lakewood, New Jersey. Not to necessarily the the amount of Jews, which is certainly King Herb, but amazing, but amazing. I have a daughter in lives in Lakewood, New Jersey. When I go visit, I'm amazed at literally for miles and miles and miles besides it's an orthodox neighborhood. You go to Brooklyn also the beautiful Orthodox neighborhood but the the the amount of land the the institutions being being built almost every yeshiva every basakab every school every mosa Ashkenazi I mean one building is gigantic more than the other with you know plenty of spaces for parking halls new wedding halls seem to be open up huge wedding halls beautiful you know places but you know they're not you know the royale anymore on McDonald Avenue in a huge beautiful place some have two in there in located saying there's a huge braha as far as and as well there's a huge braha that allowed us to live in a time where notwithstanding what I said before about rising antise-semitism we're also living in a times of the Jews never had it so good in a diaspora here in America I mean for the most part to be honest you even though I said there's a rise in anti-semit anti-semitism simultaneously we live in also the safest times you go to any hospital in the New York area, you're almost sure you'll see a person with a yamak on. You go almost anywhere in New York City and you're sure to meet someone with a yamok or someone with another y or another. And thankfull we we were allowed unfettered access to the to the benefits of this country. Those who seek higher education, there are challenges there, but still there are many many many Orthodox Jews, Tory Jews that are having access even politically. One looks at Rockland County, they've just elected, you know, people to represent them in in local and state governments which were unprecedented. People in full now occupy political votage in seats. You know, there's certainly a lot of braha in this country as well should generate should put a person on fire when I I realize what Hashem gave me the beneficiary. To be very honest, who who ever thought of an Orthodox rabbi, you know, ma making a podcast and putting it on, you know, accessible? It's also Kesh who gave us. So I know there are two ends of the knife but um you know that we have this idea that on one hand the challenges should hopefully push us to be that much more conscious and empathetic and more vigorous in in our in that way. Simultaneously the recognition of the braha our recognition of of Hashem's benevolence of Hashem's we're the beneficiaries uh of the greatest benefactor what he's given us in this door should also hopefully you know if somebody gives you an unbelievable gift it deserves a fullthroated and wholehearted uh thank you. So I think even though that they're somewhat I don't think they're they're not mutually exclusive and then they both can bring to an awareness of a kajb who wants us wants us to connect with him. He wants us to to reach out. He wants us to to be at shalom with each other. He wants us to improve. Hopefully if we keep those in mind we'll we'll move away and we won't fall into the pitfall of uh of hegalis of doing things just habitually which unfortunately you know mitzvah you know such a habitual performance of mitzvah which obviously is is very negative. >> My husband thank you very much for coming on. >> Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. [Music]