Sinas Chinum, Acapela, October 7th- Judaism Without Apologizing- Rabbi Ron Yitzchok Eisenman

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Judaism without apologizing. Today I am standing in front of congregation Havas Israel in Tayek New Jersey. A major major shaw for the thousands of people that live here and also the spiritual home of Reb Ranitak Eisenman. You might know Rabbi Eisman as the rabbi who transformed the shaw from one that is only you know a daily minion to a shaw that has over 40 minion of a day. Or perhaps you read his Mishbah column or his books, the elephant in the room or for everything a time or a schol with a view. Eisman has been a leading rabbitic figure in the Jewish world for many years and is often the clearest voice on major hashkafic issues. Today we had an amazing conversation focusing on the three weeks and we talked about and we also discussed and we talked about the role of a schol in people's lives amongst many other things and it was a great great conversation and I think you'll appreciate how Eisman is close to three decades of experience really shines forth in everything he says so whether you're part of a or a reader of Mishbah or someone searching for spiritual bravery you are are in for a powerful conversation. No fluff, just Tyra truth and some good old-fashioned common sense. So, let's get right to it. This is Judaism without apologizing. In a world where everyone seems to have not just a microphone, but a megaphone, the voices of Argim are Rabanim and Rashi Yeshiva far too often seem to get lost in the noise. This podcast is here to change that. I'm your host, Hillel Eisenberg. Join me as we sit down with our nation's leaders as they address the Ashkafic challenges that matter most without the fluff and without the drama with truth that doesn't flinch. Buckle up cuz this isn't your typical podcast. This is Judaism without apologizing. >> Thank you very much for coming on the Judaism without apologizing podcast. Thank you very much for having me, Rip Hill. >> Yes. So, you have been a leading rabbi for many decades at this point. You've been at the forefront of the North American uh re rabbitic world and I think you have a a pulse of the people and I want to dive right in with the following. Right now it's the 3 weeks and I think for a lot of people it's a little bit difficult because you know that there's something we should be feeling and doing and yet it's hard enough to have a meaningful life as a Jew juggling work and kids and Tyra and now on top of it I have like to like muster up the emotional energy of the abias which I really have nothing to do with I don't know that much about What piece of advice can you give to normal, regular working people to make the 3 weeks a little bit more authentic and real and connect to something that happened thousands of years ago? >> I mean, number one, a little bit I I question the premise that I'm one of the leading North American rabbis. You know, I I I think we should make clear from the beginning I don't represent anyone except myself. I'm not any sort of organizational rabbitica advisor for anything. And uh whatever it is, these are views on myself or myself alone. So I just want to be clear about that. You know, if you look in the in the writings of the of the great Bali Musa, you look in Dash Torah and the the printed writings of the Al Kelm, it's amazing how many there are on the topic of of to feel another person's pain has many pieces, a lot of the ideas being stressed and restressed. So to the alter of Kelm. So apparently again I didn't make a scientific study but it seems that I would imagine something perhaps 30% of of the in there are circle back to somehow no so the fact that it exists an awful lot besides emphasizing how critical it is I don't think it's wrong to extrapolate that it's also a problem meaning getting to that level you know if you uh when you walked into my foot there it was a big sign the coffee cup stops here. Reason for that people started to bring not in learning time is monthly but in dominating when people are domining I noticed people started to bring coffee cups in. So it's not our discussion but if there's a sign that says no coffee in the shul that means that there was an issue that people uh were bringing coffee in. If there's a sign no talking in probably there were people who were talking in it doesn't have to be a sign no you know so so too when we see that uh the great Musa stressed this a time and time again they they must have felt that it's a it's a difficult task and that's also a lesson to recognize that it's a difficult task besides what you you mentioned the the the the time lapse from the to now. But honestly, and it it really it makes minimal difference whether you're up on all the news and whether you have a smartphone or don't have a smartphone. You watch clips which are coming out. You don't watch clips. Reality is is that in our time I mean we get just an example which was certainly horrific but it didn't really impact on the Jewish community certainly was something our as human beings we feel with the floods in Texas, you know. I'm just from a it was an unbelievable horrific tragedy. I mean young innocent you know the girls of camp of the camp there were literally washed away but besides the tragedy when you hear that and then the next day they're here is about this conflict in the war and in any war leaving out now. So unfortunately we're flooded often with you know the the worst news which unfortunately can cause a person to be a little numb. So one thing honestly I think in their great wisdom I think they anticipated that one way is like the say is always polius outer actions can impact on the inner actions you know with the eating comes the appetite. So it works but maybe in midos as well the idea of not listening to you know music or orchestrated music not shaving not getting haircut that's at least a start and then we get to the nine days and no eating meat there's no laundry these things do impact on mostly all our lives in you know to a certain extent that's one two perhaps one is to recognize there is a challenge that's I think number one is recognize there is a challenge number two would to you know sometimes we look for I'm not saying obviously sometimes is a necessity but um you know if it's a difficult situation even that which is usually just number two can be moved to the list and number one priority but um I uh it's a subtit but nevertheless um it's a struggle that a person has and we should focus on what Kazal said. Besides that, I think that uh you know if you bring it closer to home I think it'll make a greater impact. It's if you if you know the story of someone who uh look we know one step more back the briskarov when he asked should they make a separate uh commemoration yama a day of mourning for the holocaust and believe that it's recorded in writing in a number of places I think frankly it's in the arts school kinos for tish I think you'll find it there uh in one of the keynotes I think it's I think perhaps when they have the kinos and the arts school kinos for the inop for the holocaust. So they bring down that the brisk was asked and the brisk answered that everything is a continuation is a straight line from the gullis was which followed and therefore all the subsequent Jewish tragedies obviously the inquisition the kmanitzki pogram and the pograms in Europe and of course unfortunately climaxing the holocaust and even in our time horrific massacre which occurred on October 7th. 2023. We have to realize that's all connected. That's all one large Jewish tragedy. And in that way, unfortunately, hello. I think how can you not be connected and there's so many real live stories that we can access today of people if you look at it as one contiguous. So by hearing somebody who survived the October 7th, by recognizing the pain pain of the Bibbis family, the the man who lost his wife, his two children, honestly, how can you not feel pain? How can you not feel pain? >> So let me let me zone in on that. is majority of the yearning of the mik because of our physical pain. Meaning for example and the times of the bias they were also yearning for Msiah but they had as close to utopia as as could be. They had the mdash they had I think world peace and yet they were still yearning for the for Msiah to come. Um, is there an aspect of yearning for Messiah and the ultimate redemption? Nothing to do with pain and destruction, but simply for Hashem's glory to come upon us once again. And is that completely abstract and reserved for the makubalim where regular normal people could also attain that level where in addition to all the pain and suffering I am yearning for Msiah not just because of the pain and suffering and because my uncle has cancer because somebody had six miscarriages and all that's going to come to an end when the basic is rebuilt. In addition to all that Hashem's glory is going to reign once again. Is that attainable to regular normal people or or am I even right in in in that's part of the yearning? I don't think I don't think you're wrong that that's part of the yearning. I also think each person can achieve some sort of uh can achieve that yearning that additional yearning as you said not just to have the build bring the base mdish but also to have that uh Gilino or whatever you want that that relationship that Mashiach hopefully will bring about. And for instance, as you know, the kazones points out in amuno that when we're dealing with those aspects of yiddishkite which are not uh quant quantifiable in terms how much matzah I should eat. If you ate a kaz, you fulfilled the requirement. If you eat less than a kaz, you didn't fulfill the requirement. What what did you do part of the mitzvah? Whatever. But you know if the lul love is has to be a certain size if it's not that minimal size it's not a lulov it's a disqualified a lulov but with regard to her those aspects of Judaism that involve midos or whatever how we want what we want to characterize the princes which is that's what is referencing there in you know he says a person who's a gaml is a bal will be a person even he has minimal it's not one person could have a higher you know we all have a body temperature but you know that mean that doesn't mean we're sick you know if it goes above a certain level so we all can be feel it but I don't I don't think it's it's necessarily relegated just to some elite spiritual few but I I just want to take a little bit back for a moment I you know it's interesting that you mentioned this because it always hits me very very very strongly on tishov the whoever it was maybe because however whoever we consider instituted the idea of kinos obviously we have kinos in there by people of different times I mean the people who wrote the kinos we have you know [Music] you know which has to do with the inquisition obviously these people live later in historical time. But nevertheless, if you look in the kinos, which is the accepted liturgy that's accepted all over to be recited on tishov, there's nothing in the kinos almost at all except some what we call consolation. There's nothing in the kinos itself that talks about you know except as the cancellation of the building of of having this messianic era of having some sort of Msiah in a general way the 90% more perhaps of the of the words of the kinos are one thing and one thing only to recall the pain I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves you know when when we're looking of course we all like honestly what you're more talking about is more reflective I think in the literatur of rash that should you know the idea is not which is reflected there it's the idea of that should return so that's something we always should should want that you know you should rule over the whole world in your honor and simultaneously that should be part but I'm not sure I'm not sure that yearning for that messianic I mean honestly what you quoted ostensibly there was no tishov obviously in the I'm smell so and even during the second mdish you know I imagine that whatever tish of wasn't way we wasn't imagine also wasn't wasn't a fast day I would imagine so I I think the three weeks the tishab is is not a we love msiach but um I'm not sure that the focus is a messianic focus more than any other time of the year >> so here's another question for for you. What is your take on modern-day ac capella music because many of it much of it sounds pretty much like music. Do you think that's a problem? Should people refrain from that? Is it user to listen to it? Is there a is there a litmus test or a line in the sand where I say, "Okay, this sounds so close to music that it's defeating the whole purpose." Or is it also a reflection of a culture where we don't we're just checking boxes, you know? So, it's like it's technically not music. So therefore it's fine. You know what I mean? What would you say on on that? >> It's an interesting question. I appreciate that question. First I want to state clearly for anyone who listens is that um I'm not here to pass in every sh that person they should consult their competent RV. And as far as practical I want to be clear that that's not the purpose of our discussion and no one should quote it in the way that I'm pasing I'm deciding a hakic issue rather we could discuss the parameters and as as related but the specific question has to be asked to a specific RV uh for whatever the reason but nevertheless the ac capella music I think it has to be divided into two areas. You mentioned you know it sounds just like it but I've checked off the box. So there is an aspect in Judaism certainly in of the of quantifying of the parameters of the mitzvah. Um I know that there are many people here in Arshaw who grew up in reformed synagogues and they told me how one of them well I'm not sure I'm not familiar with the practices but that growing up in this reformed temple that when they blew chauffeur they actually blew uh they actually bore trumpets as well. So more of some sort of orchestration of trumpets with chauffeurus etc etc and there was few chauffeur together and it was more of a not going through the you know issue of tali you hearing whatever you're hearing but I think we realized that even if their hearts were in the right place it could be that you know they're not fulfilling the mitzvah of of chauffeur and frankly we both know that you know the idea A that if it I don't mean this to be facitious. I really don't. But the idea that you're sort of saying if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, it must be a duck. That's not always true. I mean, honestly, let's leave something as maybe more not as timely anymore as playing ac capella music. But the idea you go to any wedding anywhere from Williamsburg to Lakewood to wherever and at the end of the wedding there'll be coffee and quote unquote milk. But I mean there's something white there which is uh liquid white and it seems to do the exact same job to the coffee. So you'll be able to ride back from Lakewood to Brooklyn as the coffee you had in the morning uh with your uh you know with with your milk which that you you know you took out of the fridge. So uh but we know that it's not milk. So you see that it looks like milk more or less tastes like milk. I mean exactly but it does enough close and it does the job of milk. I mean whatever we call coffee crema it does the job but it's we all do it we all after we had meat do this. So technically I do want to say again we're not doing but certainly from a just checking the boxes there I don't I don't want to belittle that into saying like I say there are times things can look in one way but any the reason is because kazal didn't want you act obviously to have milk if you're not having milk it's okay. So now we have to transfer it to the music part. So if you're right, if the reason we don't listen to music, if that is the reason that we shouldn't get the being, you know, I don't know, I don't want to get too far a field, but let's be clear. I think it's important that you know the Gabinus which discusses the and even in moist in the third part I don't believe there it ever says explicitly that there's some sort of a prohibition of listening to music. I don't believe anywhere that the Gumar or the Rishonum spoke directly. Now again there are much better people you know no sources I I'd love to hear but I I believe it's only a 20th the idea the only idea of recorded music which really we're dealing with is only a 20th century phenomena was no such thing I don't know when records first came out I mean no nobody's talking about going to a concert which even that that's I I believe if I'm correct the idea of music was extrapolated from the prohibition of getting married and since marriage which usually had some musical accompaniment which and the reason we don't commit is because it generates a sense of sin and perhaps the greatest generator of sibra or the one of the major facilitator of sa was the musical accompaniment the orchestra orchestra orchestr accompaniment so therefore it was an extension on when music became a listening in and of itself they became I don't know the rishonim's time I know for ysef caro in his time ever heard of listening to music. It's very possible music was relegated specifically and exclusively to occasions such as a uh a wedding or or what have you, but I'm not sure it existed in an independent. So I think it's a fairly I think it's important to recognize in the in the halafic scheme of thing. I think it's a fairly new question of the last 100 200 years meaning the what what do we do with recorded music? How do we how do we relate first of all music outside a wedding and then second of all removed recorded music and then third of all how do we relate now to quoteunquote music which is not musical is not accompanied by so again I'm not sure and I don't know if we want to go down that road but I'm not sure Hill if the the fact that it it feels like music it sounds like music I can't tell the difference between it and orchestration maybe the conclusion to be drawn is that therefore recorded orchestrated music is also permitted. I'm not sure why you know you're going with a premise that listening to recorded music which has some sort of background based instrumental background is definitely prohibited. I'm I'm not 100% sure you know that >> even that should be even that should be mut. >> No, I'm not I'm talking about what's not mut. That's what user I'm saying that look that will go back to me personally you you're get a lot of calls every day coming in right now as we speak but um there are many people which had something I think it's important to recognize this something that before the last 40 years was impossible to imagine to a certain extent and that is the idea of of being constantly the ability to be constantly part of music and music becomes part of some a lot of people's daily lives. I'm not dealing with the community but I'm thinking individuals. I get a lot of calls, a lot of calls for people who are suffering or struggling with mental health issues that music is important part of their repertoire and if we're going to necessarily take a stand that you know even ac capella music is that that's 100% music there are a lot of people out there who I would even call it therapeutic music becomes a part of therapeutic part of our lives And um I I just think it's more of an exploration the idea of listening to music in the privacy of your home or in the privacy of your car. I just want to tell you anecdotally I remember somebody came to me and they had to drive to the mountains which is not uncommon this part of the year and they had a uh two or three jobs and they said oh I I ended up listening to talk radio on the whole way up and down because she would put me to sleep in Jewish music I wasn't allowed. So, is that really what bring you closer to Hashem, listening to whatever, right-wing, leftwing, middlewing, uh, political silly people calling up and making all types of outrageous claims and, you know, these talk shows. It's hard to believe that that's, uh, that's the proper. So, so let's say because I the Pen do discuss if somebody's exercising or for kids, but let's say a regular guy, he's not struggling mental health, he wants to be a good But he sees AC capella comes on. Acappella is there. He he doesn't have to listen to it. It's enjoyable. And there's multiple album albums he could choose. And some are really really really basically identical to music and some are not. Some are just like, you know, vocals. Should one strive to stick with the ones that are I wouldn't call it less quality, but you know, more noticeably ac cappella or they're all good. Like you said, if it's not real milk, even though it looks like milk, it's fine. I think you're you're correct and again I want to stress again that this is not a a a discussion which is going to have which not you know your your your questions answered it's not a call in mind before pes have your questions answered by an orthod that's not what I'm doing um and every question has to be asked to a competent to competent ro however since you frame the question in that for framework if they have 10 pieces of music to and and whatever. Should they strive to the ones that are ac capella over ones that are have instrument background or accompaniment? No, they don't have but it sounds like they have >> it would probably look I would imagine since like you said correctly those who deal with the the minutiae of hala do again I haven't recently made a survey of the contemporary post game each one what they hold about ac capella versus that however if one does do that and recognize there are competent wellrecoognized postgame who are strict mahmir in this regard hard. So yeah, always always a person you know should try to be fulfill you know y holiday is try to cover all their bases and if you cover four why cover three for sure. Okay so let me zone in on this the base of mdash was destroyed because of sinum famously or one of the reasons what is sinum because it it could sometimes I feel like be used as a club to just you know hit whatever somebody something somebody doesn't like. It's just it's there a definition um of what is and what a is can you lend some thought onto that >> well my observation is and I include myself in this observation that is almost always that which is perpetrated by my adversary and never what is perpetrated by myself that's number one is almost always used as a as an accusatory finger against my adversary. That's always the case. It's always that's what others are always guilty of sin. It's very rare that somebody would get up be it to themselves or be it rabbi or any yeshiva who would get up and just announce that um I think we've all been guilty of sin. we because we did A, B, and C. We acted in this way towards ABC to this other people, this community, these people and the so that I mean I'm not saying it not tongue and cheek, but obviously I'm not answering your question, but what I do think is hopefully insightful in that comment is that first thing is let's look in ourselves. Let's try to define sinister for ourselves. How can I be better? How can I be better? So exactly what is of course we know that the focused a lot etc I believe the is when I would hope when the sinner becomes well I I think it can mean many things I don't think it's you know it's truly it's a broad enough term to have I think a lot of inclusions but one thing in particular which I think is very common is confusing an issue with the person meaning when I this perhaps the sin is when I I actually have hatred s we'll use kazal's word s for someone for their position when that position hopefully is not crossing a red line what I mean to say obviously if if somebody's threatening physically you yourself your family that already I can't just separate the person from from their threat person and the threat are one but let's just say for instance the following let's just say we take a very uh let's take this issue that you mentioned before it's a nice segue I'm a rabbi that I believe I'm not necessarily saying I am hypothetical I'm a rabbi who believes has gone through the sa very well which I haven't but somebody's gone through the well and they come to the conclusion that ac capella music is prohibited ac capella music is just if those who don't want to listen to any music during the three weeks should also not listen to should go 3 weeks no music however my neighbor who's also a very prominent R maybe it's and he did the same research and he came to the conclusion just the opposite that a capella music quote unquote checks the boxes and therefore he it's not music they known no rabbitic sources ever included that in prohibition of mission of matho or you know the idea or 3 weeks. So hopefully in that debate if I start to put him down, if people got telling me, you know, what do you think of Rabbi so and so? I say, you know, he's a terrible human being. I hate him. I start not talking to him. That's horrific. Meaning or or everybody everything he represents his is, you know, I I can disagree with him respectfully. I I can it doesn't have to become personal. So often things that go on in life we look at them as personal and that's what I guess the idea of sin is meaning it's free meaning it's it's s you know doesn't have to be and I think if you think about it expresses itself in in so many so many things so many things we don't we believe this person did this intentionally they didn't do it intentionally we don't know you know why they were late why why they they missed something whatever it So I think the too often is from the orthodox world too often do you know someone will call me and they'll say you know you know do you hold from this rabbi or not. Now if they're calling me about let's say a certain hashka and I believe that generally has deficiencies okay I guess it's proper for me to say I personally would not rely on that. That's one thing. But it's another thing if let's say that I I know there's a rabbi who let's just say I had it I don't know but if I knew a rabbi would say capella music is totally permitted or ac capella music is totally prohibited and because of that stance which it becomes that I don't hold for the whole person. there's someone I don't hold from. These are groups I don't I mean you hear it broadstroking um people and broadstroking individuals and groups I think is a big problem. So how what's the balance between being passionate about your Messiah, your hashkafa, your mahalik and [Music] not getting into sort of cultural to territorial hottiness? Meaning have we done a good job in our society of being very proud to be or labavich or wu or yivish ori. So my question is what what would you say is a good way to balance sort of pride in your miser and your hashkafa and what you stand for and not let that pride become territorial cultural hottiness. Meaning have we done a good job in our society where I could be a proud or litak or sardi or labavaturure or wu guy but also respect other people or has it come to territorial meaning there's got to be a balance what would you say is the best way to strike that balance >> it's a very good question I mean to a certain extent almost by definition almost by definition. Let's just say we we live in Lakewood, correct? We live I buy a house next door to you and being in a community like Lakewood, I'm sure there are multiple options for me to choose to be my Makum feel and my main place to Davin. So you choose Y and I choose Shoul X. I show Bish Y. You choose whatever more of this whatever minion that for whatever reason it meets here. Now if it's one thing if it's just you know where I dab in but if I become part of that kahila to a certain extent it's natural to for me and it's a not a bad thing could be a very good thing to think we're you know we're the best shul in town meaning I mean a person should take pride in their shul should take pride in their you know their their acts they should we're we're proud good we're loyal we're good I'm a tal of why this president should be proud proud out of of the rasha and part of that is to feel a certain sense of of good you mentioned the balance so the the issue is to recognize I don't want to I think you're asking a very hard thing because frankly when we look at our rebi or look at our spiritual leaders I think there is an element to think you know this is the rebi it's hard to get to that balance but if I can give a crude example forgive me if the analogy isn't correct but if I give a crude example but you Sometimes you're going out to eat as the family. So, okay, the family should decide which restaurant will be will be comfortable at. Let's just say you're at a workplace and there's one person there numerous places people can eat at during lunch. Some go flesh, some go milk, some go paraval. You don't think that you know my since I had fleshik I'm superior to you. Since I went to eat pizza, I'm better. I went to eat falafel, I'm better. may you understand it's better for you at that time it's better for you you know that base to satisfy your needs I think we should look at that honestly in our groups as well meaning if I'm part of this y I should recognize that there's parts of y which speak to me and therefore but I understand just like there are people like milik and some people like fleshik so z speaks very well to those people who you know resonate it resonates by them they have more of a particular penant for for that I think that's one way of recognizing that there are shim like to get to Torah the garbara says that the reason one of the reason you're allowed it to leave is to learn by a certain rebi soar says I have but then there is of learning by a certain rebi and and you can get a new rebi said answers not everybody hits it off with the same. So if we would take that lesson to life that Gamarra that would be wonderful meaning I love my rabbi I love my rashiva I love my you know this mentor I've chose for myself but I recognize the fact that other rebel who speak in a different tone or a different style or one stresses one stresses medish one distresses this one stresses that so I can respect that different people that's a good thing because the raman writes the beginning kamosha fam shaos ko Sam shonos the no human faces are identical no human personalities are identical either >> so do you do you think that there's a point where inclusivity too much inclusivity is it could be harmful where we are saying to a particular group or style or mahalik that listen everyone's got their style but it's sort of a group that's promoting very lukewarm yiddish kai and it might even be detrimental that's taking people and slowly removing them away from serious hardcore rolling up your sleeves. Is there ever a point where we have to tell our children that no I I don't appreciate you I don't think we should go there or there's no like like you said it's also a very good question a difficult question it depends actually was on the age and the person of the child obviously although I said you know if you noticed that I mentioned that the person should be proud of their their I think that's important we all know or whatever there's which has taken the world there's bell s there's lubage there's g there's stolen you know all types of different I don't think anybody advocates you should tell your child on if it's Monday we're bells if it's Tuesday we're samur if it's Wednesday we're lababich if it's Friday if it's Thursday we're g Friday is for Stalin it's ridiculous obviously and then you know and then shabas were BMG and Sunday we're more why you may be ridiculous. I think you you just create a a confused child from a confused parent. So I think it's beautiful if I believe in something you believe in a certain remedy you'd want to uh convey what you found meaningful what you found so helpful what you found so beneficial in your life you want to convey that to your children no different than if you and your wife have decided that a uh a protein richch diet is beneficial to your health and a low carb diet is is also beneficial to your health. Now, it doesn't mean you put down the neighbor for often eating many carbohydrate carbs in their diet. And it doesn't make you feel, you know, you don't have to put down the neighbor because they give more shabas snacks, sugary snacks that you and your wife don't approve of. you don't have but you would like to instill in your children the same beneficial feeling that you feel that eating in that certain way has given you in your wife well spiritually if you've received a benefit from a certain person from a certain rebi from a certain rasha certain spiritual person well you'd want why would you would want to instill that into your children and since that's the foods you know so yeah I think we have a it's part of our parental obligations and privileges. However, I think there also has to be a recognition that when I turn when the child turns 18, 19, 20, whatever that is, I think there has to be a recognition that none of us are clones of our parents. None of us are clones of our parents. whatever this person's father you know was this way this person's mother was this way people certainly have to find their own their own niche sometimes it's very similar to the parents sometimes it's not I think as long as now you mentioned is there a group to be discouraged I'm not going to rule out there might be if I happen to believe I mean if I happen to be I don't want to mention name but I think we're aware of that uh there's a certain Jewish group which are referred to as a cult which uh located various places in Canada, South America, very Central America. Many many greater people than me have uh have spoken publicly that the you know this this group is not within the big tent a lot and I'm saying it very euphemistically. They they're not they're not benefiting. They're they're totally have corrupted anything Jewish. So that obviously and to be honest I don't have to go that radical. Yeah, I do believe I do believe that if you were raised let's say in in whatever certain there's certain rush. So yeah, there's nothing wrong with explaining at one point to the child maybe why you think this resonated by you and I guess you could say why there are concerns with the other movement which I had and you may have as well but it should be done without s without if the group is in the big tent. I mean let's just say for instance I'd really try to move away from de but let's say the group is officially orthodox but uh their interpretation of orthodoxy is whatever it is I want to be clear I want to be very clear it could be both to the left and to the right I mean to say that a person can believe there are certain elements of orthodoxy which um are more lenient let's say or have with regard to a Torah only approach they believe that a person should embrace secular studies perhaps even on a higher level. So person is allowed to explain to their child why they believe that approach may not bring them the most benefit if the child after researching the issue still feels that this place is better for them. So then sometimes a parent should recognize the child has an independent view and they perhaps should respect that. But growing up there's nothing to say. Just like for instance there are certain groups of on the quote unquote right which may d at 10:30 in the morning or 11 in the morning start is very late this starts very late after the ofishes after the father was brought up to be very careful in there's nothing wrong with telling the child I prefer you wouldn't d there because they according to evenly they're not necessarily filling fulfilling of you know the in the proper time frame. But again if later on in life the child would be would feel a sense of gravitation towards that whatever it would be perhaps the sh then there has to be I think a recognition that the child has independence and perhaps respect that view. So let me go to the opposite extreme. Instead of territorial boundaries that have perhaps gone too far or that balance, what would you say to a lot of people that they don't have one central shaw? They dab in here and there and there. There's no major rabbitic figure in their life. They're 10th grade rebby that they used to be close with. They're now 45 years old. And they don't have any particular thing to be proud or to plant their flag. Is that a good thing? What would you say to somebody who who he's he wish he had a a reba or a or a rav who's watching out intimately or a Russa or someone? He just doesn't have it and therefore he sort of floats. What would you say to such a person? >> So we'll start off by saying I believed in this famous ten commandments of marriage she tape my time was a cassette tape. I think it's 636 or something like that like that. that famous tape, you know, he says when you get married, you know, you should have a r of a r that'll, you know, like you said, well, a ramy could be too, but a person should always have someone in their life that if the husband is acting improperly, the wife should have a proper outlet for her to appeal to. The husband should have someone who, you know, gives them proper guidance and certainly if it's codified in the Mishna certainly is an important part of Judaism to have some sort of spiritual mentor. But I do think I do think here and um I recognize the fact that you know others perhaps can disagree and that's beautiful but um I think the key word rather is balance and that balance I think is shifting per individuals but there are people here in my shul who communicate with me on a weekly sometimes daily basis and that's very good there are people who are also excellent Jews here wonderful Jews who communicate letting me much fre much less frequently much less frequently not every person I mean there if a person has something which requires which requires then they need obviously a rub that much closer however if a person I don't think it's theoretically impossible that a person who was brought up with solid parents hopically obviously if they don't know something they should ask they should require but if If if they're basically they're they're solid ground. I don't think you have to push everyone that I have nothing to speak about. Meaning my wife and I are happy. We're do homework with them. My wife's happy. I'm happy. If you're not sick, why go to a doctor? I'm not sure like when you say you know like the person you began the story I think I think the the elephant in the room or the implication behind the narrative that you uh so uh eloquently drew is that uh it's almost a a negative connotation to begin with the man is a floater man is I go shakers here that so the picture you're painting already is of a negative character of a person who seems to be uh anchorless I think there are people obviously the idea of having a buck that that's not necessarily connected with uh the idea of karav when I used to live in Washington Heights there was a anion there the aguda it was actually called the base yf but it was in the old a gooda building I think on 177th street 176th street and I think waterbot avenue if I remember correctly I'm not even sure and um there was know I think Rabbi the Noki Rabbi Plo was I think the last official RV there and there were people who were down in there every day at every shabas every day and every shabas there were no r to be had there but I think the idea of have a minion is important plus I think important that most most lives most couples just the the challenges and the vicissitudes of parenting of managing life and parnasa and spiritual needs and all that. balancing that with life for most people it would be I think beneficial to have a person I think I think there's two things one is the person you described I think perhaps is could be improved by having a set place to d I think we all realize having pragmatically if you have a set place to d minion that people know to expect you so where are you today you know there's some sort of accountability but some sort of also appreciation creation. I I think people should have a set minion. It's a positive thing. Besides that, I think that or could be the person without the set minion could still have a rebby and and the person who has a set minion could still not have a rebby. I think they're two separate issues. Most people, I think, having some sort of spiritual mentor that they check in with or checks in on them even better is beneficial. Since October 7th, there has been various degrees of responses from Kahilos around the world. And is there some hra or insight you can give to people who they they want to feel and and feel for the the soldiers and the people who are suffering, but they're busy and the shaw that they go to, they they say, you know, one kapul to him at the end. They mumble the words while they're running out and that's the extent of their sort of association and feeling for it. Is there uh an insight you can give to suggest how we can emotionally feel connected while being so far away? >> October 7th as we realized was the greatest single tragedy to the Jewish people since the Holocaust. It was a tragedy honestly beyond beyond comprehension. Nobody in the world would have ever believed on Hashana of that year of Tin Palid that uh that by the time after maybe a day after Torah that year there would be 1,200 Jews murdered many of them babies, women, unarmed civilians, Holocaust survivors. So number one is the recognition of the event. Um everything that's worthwhile in life requires work. That's just how it is. The idea of no pain, no gain, I think isra is central to Judaism. No one ever said being a good Jew is going to be easy and it requires effort. Obviously, we were all horrified when we first heard the news, but nevertheless, it requires effort to try to feel a person's pain. I want to say full disclosure and transparency that um I guess it's more closer to home by me uh is that my my son Tuvia who lives in Israel, he has been serving in the army for over 300 days since October 7th. He's married to Anhar with three children and besides the fact that I'm extremely proud of him and he hasn't missed a a day of learning the da and I give a I want to give a big shout to Rab Pansky and then is running his Mara's Dafomi. So I agree obviously it's very personal on my end for myself and besides that my my father was uh born in Israel born in Jerusalem which was in Palestine and I have a great deal of I mean it's an oldi family actually have thousands of relatives there but even other relative I had relatives who have been killed in the fighting not in the massacre of October 7th but since then the cousin who perished in Lebanon actually in right by Yam Kitburn of of this past year. Um but even without you don't have to be that connected. I don't know. I I I think a person it requires a little his boneress as they say meaning of of focusing and thinking about went on which does require there are a lot of books from good books which have been written on that which person should make it their business to read them. You know it's interesting I remember when I was used to be teaching in beyakovs this goes to uh 19 probably maybe 2000 2001 I don't remember exactly when it was but when the no scrubby took over the guda one of the educational programs that he pushed forth was that there should be studies of the holocaust was termed therea into the bayakos and the yeshivas and they designed a syllabus and now since then the all the basakovs and some mishas as well are more secular whatever Jewish history have studies of the holocaust why part of the reasons I think he felt that people weren't appreciation of of the the god of the of the sensitivity so you have to find out what happened and it requires work nobody here nobody you know any shul if the guy is sitting next to them his wife was the one they're saying for is having open heart surgery at that moment that was the guy who sits next to him with shu whether he knows him or he doesn't know but he knows that guy he would never mumble and run out just for the sake of feeling connected to that guy so there's a recognition of I have to exercise my aris muscle and recognize there there are people who I can I can connect to. I mean there are people you can connect to. You can even see live interviews with some of these people even even secular publications. The New York Times published an article about I think a man Shahabi I'm not sure if I have the name who is a hostage who he basically uh starts now putting on fill in every day you know and he describes the losses in this when you read about these people in their real life and you can relate to them. So it requires work. I'm not denying that now if as we approach 22 months almost of of since October 7th 2023. I'm not denying the fact that it's a struggle to maintain our focus. Of course it is. Of course it is. And I don't I don't god forbid in any way cast accusations on any people who sometimes have to leave or they're pressed. I don't. But I do think we all can spend time of recognizing what happened. There are people who are alive in our time who are people that theoretically we could have known. I mean unfortunately every Jew is precious. There were many many Orthodox we called them a little off the derek or struggling or whatever we want to call them. There were plenty of Orthodox families from the prime neighborhoods of Aris and Ushalai Benbra who were lost in the Nova festival. I mean there were I personally know testify people who decided yeah not to go. This the person is a woman here in my shul whose daughter I she showed me the the screenshots of her daughter considering very strongly if she should go to the NOVA event with a man was asking her to go with her and at the end she declined because of Shabas and he unfortunately he he he lost his life. He lost his life obviously many people in that I think that was the single most place where the massacre occurred. So it is it is a necessity that a person should focus on that when they say tum from my understanding I didn't see it I witness but a student a talmet of the patteru by rebell who we know is a one of the prominent real prominent Russia yes in the world today certainly North America but my understanding is that rebel himself says the three after very slow every day he himself does it so when you have the getting up there and saying to Hillm and you recognize him and say in Patterson, New Jersey saying to him and it's your rabbi hopefully that should move you. So that's something you can once you know that you can focus on that in your own but besides that things at home perhaps should be different things at home. I know a person very close to me doesn't like to uh have their deeds publicized but who stopped taking you know milk in their coffee since October 7th and they still don't that may be a small gesture but it's some reckoning some remembrance all in our lives shouldn't we think twice about okay like you have to like the Rio says after you have to build your house you have plant you have to eat but even when you go out to eat perhaps don't have dessert that time at restaurants besides the caloric intake which may not be necessitated but you know perhaps there should be some sort of talk to our precish some sort of recognition I'm I'm with you so it's a matter of paying attention it's a matter of focus it's a matter but unfortunately that that tragedy is uh that that that Sara I think is just last week you had again every soldier is precious but you had four or five soldiers from Yeud they're all orthodox young men all Torah mitzvah men every Jew is precious but somebody closer to us brings it home one was from Bash one who was killed null s the the 86 year old father called the Babage family. I mean it was people from Behaves but I have two sons live in Bavish. I mean they went to the funeral. They knew the family. So these people it's not like we're not even talking about an event of the Holocaust. We're dealing with something that the survivors and the and the and the pe the victims are alive and with us. And uh by accessing their stories we remember in the das Torah is clear and this idea please don't believe me everybody go to the das Torah look up in the index read the yourself go through them yourself if you don't if you're not able to do it find someone who who learn it with you but he writes the idea of when you take 160th. He says that that's be understood literally anytime you feel the pain of the Jewish people when there's a when there's some sort of decree on the Jewish people. So every by p you're feeling the pain by feeling the pain you actually as he writes gov says dino meaning the decree it was paid the bill was paid if you owing you need to pay your psg your electric bill you don't have the money doesn't care if I write the $100 or $1,000 check as long as they get their money so to speak write this please don't take my I don't want you to take my word I want you to read it yourself time and time again to learn learn these he says that a person who feels the pain of another person he's actually he actually helps the he's he's decreasing he's minimizing he's decreasing he's paying back the debt which is demanding so person realize they're feeling the pain besides that it's one of it's it's you [Music] feels our pain. that no tells us and and we know that you know we have I'm with you in the pain for a it's being au like we started our discussion of you feeling the three weeks and feeling the and how do you feel like mashia or hashem's presence or whatever I mean feeling we can't be hashem but we can act like hashem is no pi hashem is not sensory perceivable by definition the Ram writes that's one of the necessity of being au is that you're not perceivable in a sensory manner but when we act like Hashem then we become when we act godly we become as close to Hashem we go in his ways Hashem feels our pain hem is merciful hem is we hope he's empathetic we know he's empathetic that's empathy and if Hashem does it that mean it's a good thing and a good thing means it's better for us and better for Israel and not only that it's mandated to be like that we're mandated to be like Hashem so the most Jewish thing you can do is to feel if he all you don't need me all the great Bali Musa say that the person person Hashem is suffering more than we are suffers more than we are when unfortunately his decree happens This the whole idea of vero it's the odyssey it's not for now but we know hashem feels our pain the gar tells us right the gar tells us in so that the brick sat on a had a brick under his feet and all the sheba that he should feel the pain heard their scream hears our pain so it's hard things in life is hard. A lot of things life is hard but uh doesn't mean that it's not to to to be a person should it's doesn't mean it doesn't mean that a person is is but you're not a you're not free to to exempt yourself from it. But here I think to be honest with you it's person doesn't unfortunately you know here I think it's it's that much more in front of us. So I realize it's hard. It's 20 months. I realize we're living in America. We're not on the front lines. I realize all that. But I think isn't that what you know you just say we had Rabbi Pesakron speak here in the sh Sunday. So when I introduced him in Shivas Sarah Thomas when I introduced him the first thing I said was that Rabbi Cro when he had a stroke a stroke what seven eight months ago I remember when he had a stroke and maybe more and uh when I spoke to him after the stroke he's a man 80 years old the first thing he told me was how's TV how's my son Tubian he knew his name I dam for him every day wow he just had a stroke and that's the first thing he tells tells me obviously he worked on himself to feel the pain of others. I know we live in a world where a part of that a part of probably the problem very biggest concern is what's for dinner? What are we eating for dinner? Where are we eating dinner? If we would think for a second maybe just for a second here, what's the what's the the hostages the 20 hostage in Gaza? What's the families who lost family members? What are they eating for dinner? How do they feel about dinner? So a first and foremost it's what Hashem wants us to do and I don't want to be selfish but it's going to be beneficial to us because the greater you act like Hashem closer you get to Hashem that's there's almost like nothing like it nothing like it plus it's unbelievably beneficial to so it's something I think we we have to focus on very very and we should never ever fall into the horrific pitfall horrific pitfall of regulus of that it becomes just life you know everything you know that's the says everyone laugh I'm going to go home I'm going to home and eat my food I'm going to go home I'm going to eat whatever I want to eat I'm going to eat it and everything will be fine for me that that person it's horrific pain testifies that you did wrong that you didn't feel the pain says there was no pillow there was no cushion he says is in the middle I'm going to go ahead and sit in comfort this is literally the bread and butter the alf the alf of of what Yiddish kite is about to feel the pain. So it's I think a very critical thing. It's very critical for us and I imagine the other way when we don't do that it's it's very detrimental to us as individuals and and as I call yourselves a community. So it's something hopefully I try to work on myself. I try to do it best I can to work on with tea but uh I think we we have to fight against very strongly very passionately very passionately against just this having this just well everything is fine now or you know life has returned to normal it hasn't and that's something I think we should keep you know front and center on the front burner constantly >> what closing can you give to the many thousands of people watching to stay on fire in 2025 as a YD. >> I think two things which are both opposite ends of the spectrum. Number one is to stay on fire is a is to look around at the what's going on in in the world around us not in our little bubbles of Lakewood Burough Park say wherever they happen to be to recognize the fact a what's going on what's going on in Israel now is scary first of all the forget leaving out not leaving out but putting for a moment on the side for just a moment the external threats of the war within Gaza with kamas with soldiers still being killed there still threats that going on from Haran and Lebanon who knows what'll happen but certainly there's no peace treaty and in Yehuda and Shamron in in the quoteunquote the occupied territories what's going on but internally internally in Israel It's the country is very divided. I'm not such a fan of these. It never was like this. And I don't know how can anyone say never was like this. They can only know what they're in. But maybe an older person even that how much of their memories know remember how their feelings were. But certainly we're living in a time when there's a huge huge schism in the Jewish people. You mentioned before sin is there's there's a lot of sinner. There's a lot of hatred being thrown in all directions. A lot of hatred and a person recognize that and even within our communities questions of person should vote in certain elections, not vote in certain elections. It's good, it's bad, it's it's terrible, it's it's the best thing, it's the worst thing. also became unfortunately a very divisions very very big divisions within our from community and within our country. It's no secret. We all saw how much you allowed yourself to see, but we all saw the reaction of probably millions of people in our country who actually validated in the most strangest way that uh you know that Israel was the aggressor and is the aggressor which basically we all know it spread itself to anti-semitism has reached levels in this country which has led to death both in the left and the right? Both in the left and the right. People say there are mass shootings. I believe the only mass shooting directed at religious institutions were shuls. I don't believe there any mass shootings in our in our country. Thankfully, I don't think there should be. I think the only place to worship in this country that wherever you go sometimes I'm a guest speaker I'm a Scotland residence and all over the country Denver uh uh Florida Memphis wherever I go there's one common feature in all the sh they all have armed guards they all have armed guards the mosque doesn't have an armed guard doesn't even have necessarily a combination no churches you can walk on fifth avenue New Walk by St. Patrick's Cathedral. The door is open. Wide open. That's their whole point. The door is open. Door is open onto Fifth Avenue in New York City. Open. Try getting into a shul. Try a few doors down even. I'm not saying you should. It's a reformed temple, but you go to Temple Emanuals just a few blocks down from St. Patrick's there. Try to get in. Try to get in. You have to go through a metal detecting. You're back at TSA. You're back at the JFK airport to go in. >> Recognize that. recognize how much Jewish money is being poured into these groups to be poured into armed guards. We're the only group. So all these factors I think that should give a person to remove their bubble, not to just stop in wherever the local eery is and what bagel place has the best bagel and what hamburger place makes the best hamburger, the best pizza in town, the best pie to to recognize the world around them and there's big problems. I think that can give a person a recognition or put them on a hopefully a flame to to recognize that what's going on in the world is scary. It is scary. Two, I mean, there's no doubt for we know it now that part of why Kamas decided to perpetrate that horrific massacre was because of the of the inner fight infighting going on and the divisions in in Israel at the time, which certainly were a distraction to the security forces. Number two, I think can also give a person is which is frankly the other side of the coin but equally as justified in this balance. I mean on one hand I don't want to say we're living in the worst times ever, God forbid, but I do want to say we're living in probably more challenging time to be a Jew than in a lot of other times certainly in this country. On the other hand, we're also the beneficiaries of unprecedented braha. unprecedented braha. I mean, there's probably never in Jewish history been a place like Lakewood, New Jersey. Not to necessarily the the amount of Jews, which is certainly King, but amazing, but amazing. I have a daughter-in-law, New Jersey. When I go visit, I'm amazed that literally for miles and miles and miles besides it's an Orthodox neighborhood. You go to Brooklyn also the beautiful neighbor but the the the amount of land the the institutions we being built almost every yeshiva every bayakob every school every mosa is far ashkenazi I mean one building is gigantic more than the other with you know plenty of spaces for parking halls new wedding halls seem to be opened up huge wedding halls beautiful you know places but you know they're not you know the Royale anymore on McDonald Avenue in a huge beautiful place some have two in there in located saying there's a huge braha as far as and as well there's a huge braha that allowed us to live in a time where notwithstanding what I said before about rising antise-mitism we're also living in a times of juds never had it so good in the diaspora here in America I mean for the most part to be honest you even though I said there's a rise in anti-semit anti-semitism simultaneously we live in also the safest times you go go to any hospital in the New York area, you're almost sure you'll see a person with a yamak on. You go almost anywhere in New York City and you're sure to meet someone with a yamok or someone with another y or another. And thankfull we we were allowed unfettered access to the to the benefits of this country. Those who seek higher education, there are challenges there. But still, there are many many many Orthodox Jews, Tory Jews that are having access even politically. one looks at Rockland County, they've just elected, you know, peopleish people to represent them in in local and state governments which were unprecedented. People in full now occupy political votage in seats, you know. So certainly a lot of this country as well should generate should put a person on fire when I I realized what Hashem gave me the beneficiary. To be very honest, who who ever thought of an orthodox rabbi, you know, ma making a podcast and putting it on, you know, accessible? It's also who gave us. So I know there are two ends of the knife but um you know that we have this idea that on one hand the challenges should hopefully push us to be that much more conscious and empathetic and more vigorous in in our in that way. Simultaneously the recognition of the braha our recognition of of Hashem's benevolence of Hashem's we're the beneficiaries uh of the greatest benefactor what he's given us in this door should also hopefully you know if somebody gives you an unbelievable gift it deserves a fullthroated and wholehearted uh thank you. So I think even though that they're somewhat I don't think they're they're not mutually exclusive and then they both can bring to an awareness of a Kaj who wants us wants us to connect with him. He wants us to to reach out. He wants us to to be at shalom with each other. He wants us to improve. Hopefully if we keep those in mind we'll we'll move away and we won't fall into the pitfall of uh of hegalis doing things just habitually which unfortunately you know mitzvah you know malumba habitual performance of mitzvah which obviously is is very negative. >> My husband thank you very much for coming on. >> Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. [Music]