HILCHOS KIBUD AV: HONORING GRANDPARENTS - CHIYUV OR RESHUS - Shiur by Rabbi Nachum Scheiner

We're learning this man in the hill. We're actually now already in Kib. Most of the simmon in kib speaks about the of the of for a father and a mother towards the end of the sim there's a few that there's a few that the speaks about a little bit broader than just it's not restricted just to the father and the mother as the brings it's these of these is a of a that is somewhat included in the of today's will focus on actually a that's in the gor and it's not even in the it's first the the doesn't even speak about this about being a grandparent the ra the one to open up this discussion is The Marik, the Marik from the later Rishim in the late 1400s, the Marik had a shila. Somebody asked him, he wanted to say kadesh for his grandfather and it was the mimic that only one person says kadesh and shu like you find some shuls now as well. Only one person says kadesh. So the shil was if this grandchild could say the kadesh for his grandfather and be m somebody else that's supposed to say kadesh. So the said that even though we find it's a gar says that if somebody's child is but he has grandchildren and he's however when it comes to the of being a grandparent says to the galian we I don't find anywhere that he's a specific to a grandparent. You're supposed to anybody and if they're older people, you're supposed they're older. But to include also a grandparents and that already earlier in the Rambam that's the Rambam. The truth brings us Rambam. The Rambam says that if somebody is his grandparent, it's like he's mow any person. Somebody that's who shouts, who curses a grandparent called it's like he he's any any random person. And the mission over there explains the reason is because is not applicable for a grandparent. So we have over here the which is already like that in the that grandparent we'll get to that but the just says clearly that of even though it's but when it comes to he's no by uses and the Rao says he actually doesn't say that he's for a grandparent. He says what? He brings the and then he says there is a to be to be a grandparent but it's not as much as being a parent a grandfather a grandparents a grandfather but it's not as not just bead parents. What's the m what's the m to say that there's to be grandparents and also that it's but not as much as parents. So the taz already brings that the m is a rash it's a medish the ra himself and ra and the raha brings it and the ra itself he doesn't say though some have in parentheses after ra that the mak is a medish but the the ra himself and chuba says the makur is what rashi says when yakov says, "And why not why not?" Why did he mention his grandfather Zashi? You're supposed to Rash is not even coming to say tonight's a grandparent. But Rash is saying your parent more than a grandparent. Therefore, and it doesn't even say upon him is that [clears throat] a grandfather not as much as a as a father, but he's a a grandfather. So, what do we have over here? So we have a mis says that there's no of the ra says that there is a of but not as much as a father the mik that says that there's no he doesn't have to have a the says that and says I do have a place I have a medish rashi brings it to meish and gracious rabb bring Gammorus a riot to the Mik that there's no a grandparent the Gmorra and Makus we'll start with the Gomorra makus the goyan brings this Gor a riot to the Marik the Gmorra says the Gomorrah asks a question in the dinner of goyam a father that kills his son I'm sorry which pus means if the father kills a child a son a different son could be a goyam for his brother to kill his father yeah that the son does not become a and he cannot kill his father. haste. If a father kills his son and then there's a brother to the to the ner he cannot be a goyam to kill his father Benoi say he's the father killed his son but who's going to be the goyadam the grandson that means the grandson is going to come and be a goyadam for his father to kill his grandfather that you could a son can't be a ladam to kill his father but A grandson could be a to kill his grandfather. And what's the explains that a grandson is not and his grandfather a son is he can't kill his father. He can't be a goyam. The grandchild could be a goyam. and I have a from the upon with that but for a grandchild there's no there's no there's no what says so we're going to get to that we go to the reason I guess I chose this way because that's a from from medish and maybe let's first see if these if these more from to bring we'll get to that also. Yeah, he's asking asking that he's a rashy. Wait a second. He's a rashy. We're gonna get to that. So, what do we have over here? What says and then he says that there is there just not such father. What' it say? Rashia Maka could be not a rhym could be more of his father and the father's not alive grand. Oh, we'll get to that ter very good. That's one of the roots. It's not so what you said. We'll get to that in a minute. The first Herods says that we just said now very clear that grandfather also the Ram says grandfather like however it's not as much as a son a son to a father is more a son because a son has a more intense to be mab father the son can't be he can't kill his father to be the grandson's grandfather but even being his grandfather it's a less of a could be a that's number one say it's not from the garrett but it's not a theor could be is because he's not as much as he's there he's not as much is a of as the son the son has a father he can't be a a grandchild like rashi says he doesn't it's not as much as as a son but mainly can be a goyam the yadav says a different ter and he says so this terret is what we just said now is just that it's not a kashama say a grandson is not as much The yada says brings from a called that's an of the for says he that the grandfather is only when the father is alive maybe maybe in the next year we'll speak about which that's a lot spoken about that that's the whole is because that's a grandfather like what says you have a grandfather but you only have a grandfather your father if the father is not alive grandfather so let's go to the gar we're talking about that the grandfather Bashi killed his son. The grandchild it becomes a goyam to kill his grandfather of his grandfather but only if his father's alive or his father's not alive. His father was killed. So it's not a theor that says that there's no but a grandfather is talking about for the grandchild that his father is not alive. Very good. Very good. Very good. If you're bringing it up now, I was going to say it later. But let's get to it. I want to go through the R. Very good. That's when was not alive. So We'll get to that. It's could be he's even at that it's even a bigger. So what do we have so far? We have so far two of the garis of the garis. The third terret is ar this g is not a kasha with a term. It's a this is a safety brings a free you look up it's a saf the the saf has a to den that a grandchild is the goyama to his grandfather how the zas ramen explains it I have the l the lotion but the zasan explains it's not the one of the yal you have to go to the zan that has the whole lashion and the zan explains that thehatri that says what means the garan makis in other words the gammor and makus how does the gmoran makis know this then it's with a dasha yeah if you need a drussa to say that the go the could kill his grandfather. Everybody else the is not it's a this is this this is from this it's got to that says that that's why you need a to say you went without would say that a grandchild cannot kill his grandfather. He cannot be a girl. However, over here, over here, there's a draw in curious safer on the Rambam. The Rambam says this of Benoy the Makus and he says the is the so we have a Gmor and Makus which would seem that which is a raut of the Ram. Let's go now to the next Gomorrah. The Gomorrah in the Gomorrah brings a misery took care of his grandson and then when his grandson got older he asked his grandson to bring him a cup of water bring me water. So he said I'm not your son. No, I'm not your son. Some have the ga when he brings the garra the ga is I'm your grandchild. I'm the son of your daughter. I'm your grandchild. And then I'm not he says over there I'm not which clearly that he was a to bring a cup of water for his grandfather cuz he's not Muhammad's grandfather what say oh that's going to be a terror it's very good one minute yeah yeah yeah it could be that even the mo masim but first let's see what the rye is the goyan brings this rye as well and the going time we'll get to in a minute brings this but wait before the so it's clear that you're not you're not on this says you're not done you're not you're not his father what say if his father would have asked him then he's stopped I I I have to see a gar before I saw a gumar but I think could be he was he he brought him up because he was a yasum maybe he's only from the mother I don't know agav you have to understand what's even if there's no your grandfather he asked him to bring water what's so there's no den there's no den we're learning now there's no but what's so different was a middle learning. Some say that it was he would have to but these truths of the explain why he didn't have to. He's a middle learning that is on this as well. There are multiple tutsim number one the says and the go also like you mentioned before very good that here he it was a grandfather but it was a grandfather through his mother through his mother which would make sense I mean you would have if you learn thehat is that it's so here it's from his mother upon him it's only this that says father your grandfather is only your father's father not your mother's father and here the gar is talking about your mother's father he actually even brings that the medish the next medish after that medish the medish says that even though that's even number on even though says that he's a he's a mitz but your grandfather that's only a father's father not a mother's father as the go and the of it might be true but it's not what's not why should it be different even if she's a believer she's married or whatever she transferred to her kid she's also the dor father uh Let's leave this. I hear I hear what you're asking. I hear you're right. You're right. The mother also You're right. And you're right. The mother also has. So the same way it should be to the mother her father. You're right. You're right. You're right. What we're saying is a terror to be that agrees that for a mother's father these not but state this is to be of and all say that if you take a better look in Rashi Rashi explains that I'm not your son I'm your grandchild that's the what does Rashi say but I still have to you good so learning or whatever the reason why I didn't do it but when Rashi says would seem like the nor it's not the same da like what the ra says the says clearly doesn't say your grandfather the says [laughter] more than a grandfather here a grandfather but and that's what she says like a be salty. So just to be makim and then we'll go and talk to this rashi this medish. We'll go try to mirror a little bit says there's no a grandfather not a father's father not a mother's father there's no and like he says there's no anywhere maybe even these and maybe that there is no says there is a however the is not as much as a as a as a on what's the m for the ra again the mik doesn't need a mcoy because the mic he says is that there is no m anywhere that is a where does the ra verly to argue and say that there is a so like we mentioned earlier rashi says that yakov said and he didn't say because your grandfather also but not as much as your father. First let's just understand the rashi for a minute and then we'll go a little bit into the pro havana let's call it it's very interesting rashi says rashi as a kasha why didn't yaku mention his grandfather also rashi if you look other places other does mention his grandfather but why doesn't he mention his grandfather zashi it's a medri ish not as much a grandfather. I hear I hear you don't have to your grandfather as much as a father that's still why didn't why didn't he mention why didn't he mention [clears throat] why not why not your grandparents as much as a father but is that a reason why not to why not to wash it why not so over And that was an somebody was mentioning earlier like this I'm going to say it's a little because these later that he does mention also you have to understand but he says like this earlier earlier in in the per I think it's over here was still alive because was still alive. So then because his father's alive that's what we brought earlier from over here because there's no it it is interesting because saying that you're not like a son. So you have to say what does it mean like but if but you still have to over here he was a terror says it's only you have to understand because he's a later that that Jacob did mention upon him the kasha was why didn't Jacob mention and the ter is because over here wasn't alive anymore he wasn't here to be it wasn't a gay anymore dimensioning of Rome. So we have over here a from Rashi from a medish with a clark. We have a the medish says that a person is grandparents not as much as like a father. So what's the mic? What does the mik do with this rashi with this medish? So then over here it's now the it's not so posh this that brings in a that says the same that you only when there's says that we don't go with desire if the is and also but if there's no if there's no neg for the medish so if the mic says you're not if the mic would have brought a garis so then you go with the garis not like the but it doesn't bring any it just says [clears throat] But this this is all of the but you have to understand the is he says what does it mean he's a medish and and the emis is the is the shil the taz asks on the marik from the madish from rashi The T asks on the mar that I rashi a medish. The sakv the shak asks on the taz with what did the taz discover by asking on the marik that he's a madish the ramo himself if you take a look in moa the ra argues on the marik because of this mish so what exact what is the what is the marit what is the taz asking on the mik what's he asking what's the shila says like this. He says that what the Taz is asking is that we could understand that the forgot the medish but the a person does the mikra is actually with so it's that's what the that's the is being mas what the sh is these are but it's but just to conclude with one of this that the is said it's very interesting we can't leave this part out sorry but can't this is rashi doesn't say [snorts] your grandfather rashi says very rashi says your father more than your grandfather whoever spoke about being a grandfather where is the for that ask it's very interesting it seems like there's a somewhere else somewhere else says the says whoever said these two one terret one terrets answers and he says the following. He says that he says it's because you and your also says it's we never spoke about it up until now. That's he says the same thing is also with a grandfather cuz you and your father of your grandfather actually the we mentioned in the beginning of the year that [clears throat] a grandfather is like a like a random person. That's because even though he's a you don't learn but one more to say to be a grandfather says he's saying the is from a rashi from a medish but the rash and the medish brings it and with this I'm going to conclude is that mo the zan on on a spirish over says he says I'm just taking out these words. So decided to say that the grand entire