Were Two of Judaism’s Greatest Leaders Converts? - Rabbi Daniel Glatstein

Shaya Naval. You may be familiar with them from Perky Avice. Their names are mentioned throughout Shas. And the reason why I'm speaking about it is a I was just there this past Monday and it's actually related to this week's para. Let's begin with the Arizal. Theal taught that when you say the what does it mean? The throne of David your servant should you should quickly establish the Arizal. This is report by the Arizal warned us very greatly on a certain day that we went to the Kev of Abal. So here we learn that and would visit the ke of when we would d in there and he told us again and again and again and again that we should reme that we should mention in every single that when we say the words that should not die there's a concept there's mash and when you say you should have in mind should not die. Who's going to kill him? Arasha. Okay. And Mashiach is called David is David is Ben. And this this is the essence of it says in ask for life. You're supposed to ask for the life of Messiah B. Why? Because the Z teaches Mashiach will ultimately die. And we didn't understand what that was getting at. Why? Why did every time we visited he would tell us that shouldn't die. He kept on warning us again and again again shouldn't die. We didn't get it. Only God knows the secret. In the end, we figured it out. Dal died. Now this is a very cryptic passage. It it seems to insinuate that was mash and that's why he kept on telling them that shouldn't die but what I'm trying to bring out is that there are a lot of the clearly visited the of and that's a good intro to today's sh and also uh it makes me feel good because I also visited it this week only a couple days ago I think basically uh within the last 72 hours. Okay. So, who exactly were you may be familiar with them? They're they're mentioned in received from love work. Most people hate work. He says love work. Hate not hate the authority. It's talking to him and saying you should hate the aspect of authority of it. Don't become too friendly with the government. Okay, these are the this is the teaching of andalian were the were the abdin respectively. Now, in order to get the job of Nasi or Abzin, what are the qualifications? Obviously, you need to be at you need to be a Torah sage. What else do you need to be? You have to have good lineage. As we're going to see, it's a in this week's para. Take a look at number eight. You should place upon yourself a king. From among your brethren, you should appoint a king. What does it mean? From among your brethren, you should appoint a king. He has to be Jewish. Yeah, I need a puss to say that the king of the Jewish people should be Jewish. Don't Don't take a guy from North Korea. Only someone who's Jewish. I need a Pik for that. What does it mean? It means um seemingly not Grimm Grimm converts are not acceptable to be a king over Kalisra. And perhaps does this extend to other positions of leadership? Can a convert be a president of Ashul? He could get aliyah. He could get shishi. Could he be the president of the shul? Is that considered position in Israel? There's a mosha discusses. Can a woman be a president of Ashul? Okay. Now, what we're going to discuss today is what about who were they? The Gumar and Giten says something astounding and gitan says look at number two from the grandchildren of they taught to publicly man who are the grandchildren of came from now that doesn't mean they were gay but the first step is their origins were of gentile descent they came from Sanv Melik Ashar >> they were brothers >> they were no actually I don't have any information that they were related or that they weren't related all we know is one was the Nasi one was the and they both came from were they personally related I don't know I don't have any information that they were obviously they they must have been somewhere down the line they both came from some But no, I I don't have information that they were brothers. What else do we know about were they themselves converts? So there's a very interesting Mishna in um actually this coming year in the year we're going to be learning there's that a certain amount of pass if you don't have 40 if you have a certain amount of drawn water and a pass. So the mission says in hurry in the g says in three of drawn water. Why did hill say in and not hashb express it this way? because he heard it from his rebi with an al if and a person is obligated to say over what he learns in the same type of phrasiology expression that his rebi says it. So if you're saying over the shar you need to give it a accurate treatment. Okay, but that's that's a general principle that you're obligated to say something over in the lion of your comes the Rambam and the parish and were the rebies of Shama and Hil and Shamay learned from like we see in it says um hilib from theion were converts. The Rambam says not only did they come from some they converted and in their language they continued they were not able to drop the the phrasiology of the expressions of the Gentiles in they said in instead of h as the tashbates explains that Everybody knows that akum there are certain sounds they cannot pronounce like a Jew could pronounce. For example, it's Hanukkah. So you say, "No, it's Khan." You know, it's that sound doesn't appear. It doesn't is not present in English. So they sound they have a hard time uh expressing it. You know, tell tell an American to say ar rah. an Israeli laughs at you. There's no raw sound. There's no rah. It's it's you know, you try to say a ra you don't you can't you're not able to because you're you're an American. Americans don't know how to say ra. So akum cannot say the letter. They can't do it. But the tashbait say they also can't say hey. But it's because the real he is more guttural and they can't say and and you know there's certain sounds they're not able to pronounce. Soalian were gay because they were gaim they still preserve the gentile uh articulation and Hillel who was a native Jew he could say hin but he didn't say h. Why? because his rebi said in and even though his rebi wasn't really right but rabbi um says the raam this is what my tradition from my father who got it from his rebi and from he got it from his rebi in other words the ram saysaya and were converts and that's why they taught to with their original articulation and they couldn't pronounce the letter hey and when hill said it over. He said it over in the way that his rebi said it over. By the way, the also brings from the bartinura that andala were gay gay sadc. They were converts. Question. How in the world could they be converts? But they occupied the two most powerful positions in the Jewish people. Nasi azdon respectively. Schm is the nasi. By the way, in perav whenever you have two names, the first name is the nasi. The second name is the it's a very important yad. Why is this so important? You know the says in the is always like B. Why? Because B was was humble. They always let Shamai go first. And yet in which is the book of Gidis first comes Hil and then comes Shami. If the reason we pascin like Hill is because Hill always allowed Shami to go first. Then if in any book Shamay goes first it should be Perky. No if Hill goes and then Sham. Why? Because Peravves is listing the tradition of Tyra the Messiah of Tyra. Nasi Abz then Hill was the Nsi. Sham was the AB. So it has to say Hill first in Perav and then Shamay. But the Yam asked the following question. If Schmaya and Abalian were Nosan respectively, but how could they occupy those positions if they were converts? You know the is can a convert be a dion? No, a convert cannot be on a Jewish court. So if they can't be on a Jewish court, how in the world could they be the nasi and the avezden? and uh says the yam look in reblo in anybody know who's reblo the maral prague isoi and he says that even though there are those who say of talian were mikah gimm like it's mukah in gin or like it's muk and the garra in yuma by the way very interesting gamarra in yuma the gar and yuma says one time the was coming out of the kakadashim and everyone's following the ko home after yum kipper and then everyone saw so they left the kangada and they started following a talion and they wanted to go follow so they asked the ko could we abandon you and go to and he said yeah go to those go to those goam go to the andalian said it's better that they should go to the benim to in peace but at least we act like a who's and not go to the descendant of a who doesn't act like a meaning better that they should go to who act like a than go to you who doesn't act like a but this gar seems to indicate that were gay that's what the co meant go to the bjo amim But says moral you cannot explain that they were converts because if they were converts they couldn't be the nsi and azen it means they came from converts back many generations earlier but their mother had to be Jewish's mother had to be so they themselves were not converts but says says those who sayalian were converts are in great error Now who's he calling in great error? The Rambam theis is citing the moral of Prague who says that those who sayalian were converts are in great error. Look at the moral side. Look at number seven. Some say were gimm and the the the marala prag says our sages push away that opinion because kazal say in the all positions of authority have to come from native Jew certainly the okay now just as an aside let's learn this gamaris that talks about that all positions of authority have to come from native Jews. Okay, it's going on a P in this week's para. So that's another reason I'm talking about it. Not only because I just visited and by the way they send their best regards. Okay, but also that's the one of the important topics of this week's para. Look at number eight. You should place a king upon you from among your brethren. You should place upon yourself a king. You're not able to put upon yourself a foreigner. So the tells us the story of Ravari Barrael. You ever hear of him? Ra what? What's different about the name Mari than names of other Amaram? You may have heard >> what >> they're giving the mother's name. >> Yeah, the mother's name. Since when do we say you know Rahuna Yeshua? You say you know Ruain Ben. You don't say Ruain Bena. All of a sudden [snorts] why Rari? Obviously because his father's not Jewish. That's why we're giving. Now Ra appointed in a to a position of authority. So Gomorrah asks, "But what do you mean? All positions of authority have to be from your brethren." Says the Gammorrah, since his mother was Jewish, so he is from among your brethren, even though his father was not Jewish. So this Gamarra teaches us that at the very least your mother has to be Jewish, right? There are a lot of things your mother has to be Jewish. Let's say we talk about um anyone whose mother is Jewish has to eat shalludas. If your mother is not Jewish, you don't have to. You could eat mazes for shalludas, you know, but just but let's say even if your mother is not Jewish, just going to remind you, you still can't bring your phone into the shaw. Okay? Because God's in the shaw. So it doesn't matter what your uh ethnicity is. Anyway, this is the source that if uh a g cannot serve as a king cannot serve in a position of authority. So therefore the marala prague and the toys ask on the raam that how could you raam say the word so how do they become the and the so this question right that's a major question on the raam says anyone who says were converts is erroneous so we need to defend the raam how could you maintain the position that were converts and yet they were the So we come to the mug a it's a parish on perk from the tashbates the rashbats and the rashbats also maintains that shrine of talian were righteous converts he proves it from the yuva in yuma where the kadal called him where the godal called him uh say yeah you could go to the yeah yeah go follow that the of and there's another proof that they seem seem to be gay. Um, we're going to put aside the question that the uh that the Rashbatz asks. So, we're going to come back to it. And the Rashbat springs brings another proof that Shranian were gay because the Mishna says an idiot. Hilo said Mallaloy in not Hinn because they wanted to adopt the Lion of the Rebi who was originally an Akum who couldn't pronounce the letter hey. Another proof, this proof uh my friend of Nassen Welder uh brought but the Rashbat also mentions it that there's a question if a convert uh if a woman who's a convert is unfaithful to her husband, do you give her the waters of the Saita to drink? If the woman has infidelity to her husband and now we're we suspect her of adultery, do we give her to drink? So Schmay and Abalion gave the the to drink even if she was a a g a guar. So they told her they told ah just like you you're giving her to drink even though she's a guar because you're also gay. So that clearly indicates we're in other words say a gorus drinks the waters of the and they said to oh because you know because you're one of them you're from that group that's why you're extending the even to gam but you see from that are considered gam so the rashbat offers the following explanation he says it's true a gar cannot be appointed to any position not a dion not a ni, not an azen, and certainly not a king. That's if you have a more qualified dian. If you have a qualified dian, you cannot appoint a gar as a dian. If you have someone who's qualified to be a nasi or abdin, you cannot appoint a g to be a nasi or abdin. But what if they're the most qualified individual to occupy the position of nasi and abden? If they're the most qualified to occupy those positions, then we will definitely appoint even a gar the the ray is listen to this where the where the but if you remember when hil came up from above do you remember the question they asked they didn't know do you bring a carbon pak on pes that falls down on chabas who were the nim at the time they didn't the nim didn't know the Nasi didn't know the whether um whether Kesak is who are the who is the Nasi the Ben and Hill reprimanded the Ben Hill said the isabas and you know why I know and you don't know cuz you were lazy you didn't serve andalian wait a second that means at the time and were no longer the abdin the bes were the n the nim and then they had to step down so hill could take their job and hill's criticizing the you know why you lost the nio cuz you didn't serve wait a second but were the nasi and then no it must be that when the bene were eligible to be the nim they immediately removed why cuz they were gay so then why did they occupy the position originally cuz at the time they were the most worthy and then the bibra were worthy. So then had to step down. In other words, what the rashbat is saying is that it's not an absolute prohibition for a g to occupy the position of nas. It's only if nobody else is more qualified. If anyone else is qualified, then of course um they will occupy the position. that that Schmai of Talion only occupied the position so long as they there was no one else who was qualified which is interesting because they're telling the bene the reason why you're losing the job is you didn't serve which and the gar calls to if you look at number 13 the gar says what caused that I should come up from your laziness. You didn't serve two. They were the greatest in the generation, but they STILL HAD TO STEP DOWN FROM being the ni and the best. Why? Because there were other people who were who are eligible. Meaning it's true a gar cannot occupy the position of if anyone is eligible even if they're even slightly less eligible so long as the bas were eligible had to step down when the bas weren't there were the ni by the way the rashbat says this is very logical like the garra throughout shas we find that even a who knows is like a kodal or a would um someone who learns Torah is even more precious than the who enters. Now, by the way, look at number 11. The rev the rea is one of the parish. He asks why do I need a p to exclude a from judging? But the is even a gudge. Even gay can't judge. So why do I need a I need a You can't even allow a G to judge. Answers Reva. A G's disqualification is only if you have a Jew who could do the same job. But if there's no other Jew, you're allowed to appoint Gramm like Talion and Wita Puk that even if no Jew could do it, you can never appoint a gentile. So this is a very interesting approach to defend the Rambam from the question of the Maral. The maral maral says you can nobody could possibly anyone who maintains that of were gaim are in error because otherwise how could they be the nasi and the abden to which the rashbat says and the riva says that even though they were um even if they were gayim they could have been the nasi and the absin because there was no one who was more worthy. Now, now we come to a very interesting gam in Saita. There was a man by the name of Agrias Hamalik. You ever hear about Grias? >> Who? He was what? >> Street. >> Agreass. You heard of the street? He just spent six weeks in Israel. You know, he he memorized every street. Yeah. I'm going to give you a test. you know, he knows every street in uh basically ways is is asking him questions now. Google maps, you know, Agrias Agrias was a um a king from the of the Kashman. But at a certain point of time, the Kasham were killed out. Herod killed out the Kashman. And actually Herod uh either was representative of many of the powerful kings uh first Herod and then Agrias and some say Herod was Agrifas's father. For this year we're going to assume Herod was the father of Agrias. Okay. And Agrifas presumably at least according to Rashi his mother was Jewish. So his father was Herod and his mother was Jewish. And at Griffas was one day he was uh reading from the safer tra and actually when it when they gave him the Tory he stood up and the rabbis praised him for standing up for the safer tra and he got up to the puk in this week's para you know you never know paraim you never know who the bal might be it might be a and he was the cur for paraim and he got up to the says is shaking. The says you need to appoint a king from among your brethren. You cannot make a foreigner your king if he's not your brother. and ages thinking to himself I'm the king and and I'm not from their brethren. So the the Mishna says of he start his eyes started streaming with tears here. He's reading he's the bal and he's reading you can't appoint a king unless he's a n he's a brethren of the Jewish people and the Jews said don't worry you're our brother don't worry says why his mother was Jewish says when the Jewish Jewish people said, "Don't worry, you're our brother." We were liable to be utterly decimated cuz we flattered Agrias. Brother, he's not our brother. The Jewish people were worthy to be destroyed when we said to Agrias, "You're our brother." Okay, that's the Gumarra. Now, according to Rashi, Agrias's mother was Jewish. So asks Tis why would the Jewish people liable to be destroyed because they flattered Agrias by saying you're our brother? Why were they punished? He was their brother. His mother was Jewish. His his mother I mean that's the Garus remember appointed and Ra appointed Raari Barel and the Gar asked what do you mean his father's a guy? And the answered, his mother was Jewish. If your mother is Jewish, you could be appointed to a position of power. So what did the Jews do wrong when Agrias cried when he got up to the par? But the Gar says exactly this point. If your mother is Jewish, you are a brother. So Tyus asks, wait a second, but the ison you can't appoint a king unless he's a guy who could marry into the kahuna. And this guy Agrias his father is a from his family. You can't marry into kahuna. So mon he would be disqualified to be a king. Tyus says Hashem would never destroy. Kaiso would not be worthy of destruction for only in so it can't be because now by the way it's very interesting from this proves that is why because garra says in that why was why was the second mdash destroyed because they didn't say says That's because would be says we would we would never be liable to utter destruction just because of that's one of the rias of the Mishabur brings the same ria the Misha says in his conversation in his discussion he says it's and he says and the Jewish people were worthy to be was destroyed because we didn't say what's the getting at he's trying to prove because if it was we it wouldn't he's bringing the shag's proof but he doesn't explain what his proof is. He expect the mishab expects you to know the shag is proof from this tyus because if it was we never would have been worthy to be destroyed it's amazing and the mish by the way anyway so tyus asks why were kai so worthy to be destroyed because they flattered agrias wasn't flattery according to the garam he was their brother his mother was Jewish therefore tyus argues on rashi typhus says listen to this who is agrias's brother >> Herod. >> Herod. Did Herod repent after he destroyed the temple? He did. >> He rebuilt it. >> And he rebuilt it. A guy's repentance means he would never marry a Jew. A good guy wouldn't marry a Jew. You never think that way. You think a good guy, you know, he wants to marry a Jew. No. Since Herod repented, he must have married a guy, not a Jew. Isn't that interesting? Cuz not only can a Jew not marry a Gentile, a Gentile is now to marry a Jew. Since says, listen to this says why how do we know didn't marry a Jew? He repented. To be a good means you don't marry a high Jew. You know when when when the akam has when the msad kaducian speaks to the akam and he sits down to give a schmoo to the akam he says I I just want to check do did you you know who the kala is said yeah he says uh what's her name uh Janet okay you sure she's not Jewish you know make a a good mass kaducian by goyam they make sure that the kala is mamish um pedigree has good gentile pedigree otherwise they can't marry her anyway but that's Tyus but Rashi says Agribas's mother was Jewish so accord basically we don't have an answer for Rashi tous attacks Rashi Rashi says that Agrias's mother was Jewish asked to so then why were we punished for flattering Agribas it's not flattery he was a he was our brother sous says I disagree with Rashi Herod married a gentile, but Rashi says he married a Jew. >> But how do you get an aliyah then? >> If what? >> Why is he he's not Jewish according to >> um why did he get an aliyah? He didn't get an aliyah. He was the bal. He was the bal. Now they always put up bal bal kura and they can't read. They don't know how a tipka is. They don't know what a tuka. They wouldn't know the difference between hit them over the head. Okay. So they they put once they once said they put up a guy. You mean why is he reading the is not even Jewish? There's no isser. They weren't y' say the para. Yeah, good question. What kind of bak listen I have to get a bak curry every week. You reminded me now. I don't have a bakar yet for never have I asked the guy are you Jewish I never had you know maybe now I got to do I got to check I have to make sure >> you know okay so the rashbats and the rashba and theuk say like this ra the as long as your mother is Jewish you could be appointed to position you could be a president of the shul. You could be the gabi. You could be the gaba sheni. You could be the gabi shishi. You could be the vice president. You could be the candyman. As long as your mother is Jewish. If your mother is Jewish, you could be appointed to position of authority. So, so in what way do the Jewish people flatter agrias? Say these reshim but you can't be the melik. to be the mel your mother also your father also has to be Jewish it's not enough for your mother to be Jewish your father has to be Jewish that's how they answer up the opinion of rashi the rashbahed by the muk they say to be a mel is you need not only your mother to be Jewish that's why the pik says so why does it repeat So from the fact that it says don't appoint it means your mother has to be Jewish. What does it mean? It has to be brotherhood even the father. That's malus uh proper other positions of authority you only need from the mother. Now let's try to so so we have a who was the Rambam and the bartinur say they were gam the maral rejects that the rejects that otherwise how could it be the nasin and the rashbat says because in a situation where there's nobody more worthy you could appoint gimm as a rashbat then tries to uncover the meaning of the name Abalion. Abalion tal a bit abalonian. It sounds like bit like we're nullifying him. And he says talion is a lush of children like Talia. We always say throughout that Bezdon is like the father of the minors. You know, if you have minors and there's nobody representing them or um who's able to make acquisition for them, bezen could do things on their behalf. So, Afalion is avanim of kitanim. You know, I thought perhaps you could say that the rashbatu holds that the reason why Talion were able to be the ni and the is because there was literally nobody more worthy than them. Maybe the name of Talion denotes a talion. He was the father of smaller people of katana meaning relative to Avtalo and everyone else was much smaller. That's how he got the position in the first place. Maybe that's the name given to him to explain how he was able to occupy that position. He's a to those who are kanimu. But let's come back to the garra in Yuma. If you remember the garuma said one time the kangada was walking out of the kadashim everybody started following him and then all of a sudden walking down the street and they said to the kango could we abandon you Mr. we want to walk with. So the co said yeah go to those goyam you know go andalian said back better that they go with goyam who act like aron then they go to the ko who doesn't act like >> that wasn't a that wasn't a very flattering uh statement >> the the co no that was quite not a nice comment that the co man made go to those because at the worst they were gaim and according to some they just came from gam What does Shaya say in Shmaya says love work hate authority and don't be friends with the government. So there's a very interesting safer gal that Rab Isaac got from me many years ago and he brings from the Arizal and the Shahhulam that who exactly are Shmay and Talion? They were both the Gilgal of Zakaria Haken Zakaria not Zakaria Hanovi Zakaria who if you remember was killed on Yumkipper by the Jewish people Zakaria was the first here's very interesting Zakaria was the first victim of terrorism Zakaria the problem was that the terrorists were his own his own brethren. If you go today near Y Shalom, you know there's a massive monument right near Yalam. It's the monument of Zakaria. Right behind the monument in a corner is the first victim of terror in Israel. And buried right next to Zakaria not Hanovi is buried in a cave onimary. This is who is um Zakaria conducted himself with a lad of authority. He was the son-in-law of the king. He was a kadal and he was a little bit arrogant. Um and Kazal say he was he rebuked the people with a little bit with arrogance. He spaked he spoke down to the people and he gave them great muser anum kipper in the ba mikdash and yo got so angry and he had him killed and everybody stoned him in the b mikdash and the Jewish people suffered for many generations. Remember killed hundreds of thousands of Jews to put to rest the boiling blood of Zakaria. He killed literally hundreds of thousands of Jews. Shaya is the gilgal of the ru of Zakaria and he came to rectify his improper behavior first time around. And therefore he said the rav the teacher should love the service of the rabbanas meaning helping the people but hate the authority aspect of the rabbanas love the job the helping of the but not the the authority of the raanas because look what happened when somebody got too carried away with the authority of it. That's that's even some even say Shaya and Zakaria sounds a little bit similar was the gilgal of the nephesh of Zakaria. And therefore in his teaching of Talion says sages be careful with your words. Remember what happened in my last round when I spoke too harshly. Be rabbis be careful how you speak. If you need to rebuke, do it with a degree of gentleness, but don't uh lambast in such a harsh way where they're going to rebel. So was the gole of the and was the gole of the and that's the why these two people are like a tandem and were a tandem because they both were in some way sparks of the earlier. So the safer suggests that this would explain the account in the gamaruma of when everyone was following the kangad and then they saw and they started following and when the when the god said yeah go to that guy they said the ken is being harsh with his words. Alert alert alert. The kangado is being harsh with his words. We know we remember they were both the and they they remember the disastrous repercussions of if the speaks harshly. So they said you know you need to calm down better that they go to us who we come from converts at least we're acting like a than to go to you who's forsaking the important dimension of the kunaga of to emulate the ways of so anyway these are some of the some of the the history the background of as well as the the mystical source of the souls of Shaya and today they're buried in Galav and and apparently the andal also they endeavored to go to the there and we even have a record of what taught in the kur of the so have a great night everyone