The Communication Triangle - Rabbi Shimon Russell

to highlight one particular point that perhaps we can draw something I hope crucial isistic cliistic about parenting and uh we'll extrapolate it from the Tyra and bring it down and then we're going to try and do all this in about 30 minutes or so we'll see if we so the most obvious suga of parenting in the is the suga of Ben Syra of you know that's the where we the Torah instructs us and guides us how we should be so the says like this in you have a rebellious child doesn't listen to his parents I think a lot of people can relate to this today he doesn't listen to his parents they punish him That doesn't work either. I get these shas every day. We punish, we try, doesn't work. What do we do next? So the Torah in its wisdom and compassion describes what we should do. His parents, his father and mother take him, they take him out to the gates of the city. He doesn't listen to us. just eats and drinks, has fun. What do we do? And they stone him to death. It's one parenting mahalak, I guess. You stone him to death and we get rid of this evil and all should listen. You know, in the fantasy sometimes in the back of the head, we think it's not a bad idea. But what is the Torah teaching us? So this story of Ben Surva when we expand upon it is actually amazingly yodistic fascinating and insightful and lisa about our lives even though we're going to see in a moment one Tana maybe two who say it never happened it never was but let's see what the Gmorrah says so the Gmorrah the Mishna says like this just want to be mas and then you'll see where I'm going with this ha let's say the father got fed up and he decided that's it he's not listening to us we got to take him to the the gates of the city we got to stone him but the mother doesn't want let's say the father doesn't want the mother does want they both have to be wanting this to happen otherwise there's no they must both desire it says if the mother wasn't roy if this boy's mother is not roy to his father cannot be a ben. What's royishna? So the garra is mv what exactly it means by the way don't lose me here we're going to bring this down to our lives practical and you'll see that how profound and insightful the toy is in teaching us parenting. So the gor wants to ask what does it mean that the mother is not roy if she's not roy to the father cannot be my what does it mean she's not roy so the says have a minute if you want to say it was a marriage that shouldn't have been they shouldn't have been able to get married that's not the case because the the Torah says it's his father and his mother so we don't care whether they should have or shouldn't have got married. It's a father and a mother. So what does it mean? They're not roy for each other. So says the she has to be equal to his father supports this. Listen to this. If his mother, this boy, his mother is not shave, which loosely translates as equal to his father, then he cannot be a Benorra. And how should he be she she be shave? In what way is she shave equal? says the Gomorrah be ubara ubakima voice looks and height as strange a string should be what it means what she's looks the same we we'll come and see what it's talking about and if she's not if she doesn't look like him the same voice and the same height my time Because the person says he didn't listen to our voice. It has to be the same voice. And Rashi says it says, it doesn't say our voices. It says in the our voice, one voice. So you know here that it has to be a the has to be the same voice. Father and mother are both saying the same voice. From here we know we know that she has to look like him and she has to be the same height as him. If you're confused, don't be surprised. It's confusing. But we're going to take something. Last piece. Now we got a there never was one. There never will be one. There never was a ben. And the gor says and there never will be one. Who's the T who says this? The only reason we find it in the is you should learn it to get for limit which itself is a strange thing. It goes according to Rabbi Yehuda is the main maybe Rabbi Shiman. Okay. So let's summarize what we said here. We got three caches that I want to ask on this Mishna and then we're going to try and tie it in to extrapolate something I believe is crucial a musah and crucial painful. So first we got like this. A Gmorrah says there never was a ben a rebellious child and never will be one. How could the Gmorra know there'll never be one? There's another that someone said I sat on the ke of one. Okay, we'll leave that tana out. Abisa how could you say there'll never be one? Maybe punk there'll be one some point in history. It'll be a father, mother, the same. They'll look the same, sound the same. Maybe you can say there wasn't one. How can you say there'll never be one? That's the first kasha. Number two, what difference on earth could it make to the hal of a rebellious child whether the parents look the same, have the same height, and their voices sound the same? like like what's it telling us? And it's strange because what man and woman have a same sounding voice? A woman's voice is generally, you know, a softer, lighter, I don't know, sweeter. I don't know what it is, but it's just nicer. You know, men, we're gruffer and tougher. I don't know. We're lower. The women's voices are higher. Like a woman's voice and a man's voice be the same. Mara, they're going to look the same. It doesn't make any sense. What man or woman look the same? And they should be the same height. All right. Maybe could be. That could be. They could be the same height. Karaka. And unless the karava are the same, they can't be. What on earth is the garra talking about? And then you have the biggest problem I think is that the whole this whole Gammorrah tells us then. So if there wasn't one and there never will be one. So why do we learn it? What are we learning a sug telling us a sugar? [Music] You'll learn it. You'll get scar for limitra. Thank you very much. I'm still not bucky in hash, you know. Leave me alone. You know, let me work on kashras. I got a lot of areas I'm not very good at and I should go and learn the of this to get as if I've got nothing better to do in my life. I'd rather take the let me get it doesn't make sense. What is it talking about? So you have these caches that on the Gammorra the Mishna that make no sense and yet the Torah is talking to us and it's timeless and it's telling us something about parenting that is so beyond profound and I'd like to that out for you if I can in these very few minutes. I once gave a lecture many many years ago. I if I remember correctly, someone asked me to speak somewhere about communication. The subject was communication. So I came to give the lecture. I thought it'd be a cute way to start. It was a big packed crowd. So I went over to the microphone and I stood there and I stared. Anyone feeling uncomfortable yet? I did it for 30 seconds. It was unbearable. I must tell you inside my kishkas were like it was unbearable. But for 30 seconds I stood there until I heard mumblings, laughter, concern, get him some water. You know what? Like what's going on? And then I asked the following question. What? Tell just hands up. Don't spare me. I got pretty good self-esteem. I'm pretty good. Tell me what you think was going on these last 30 seconds. So, of course, in the men's side, someone called out, "You brought the wrong notes." Okay, good. Very good. What else? You're nervous. Okay, good. What else? It was amazing. By side it was amazing how when I asked for feedback there must have been 15 20 different spars of what was going on with me and and no one got it right. That was most fascinating. But there were 15 20 sparas of what was happening when all I did was stand there and do nothing. You see what was I doing? What just in case you're interested, what I was actually doing was trying to introduce a suga called meta communication. Meta communication. Clearly doing nothing, standing still and staring into the video camera that was videoing me. 15 at least 15 different people learned a spur of what was going on with me based on me doing nothing. There's a suga called meta commmunication. Meta means everything above and beyond the precise words you just said. The words you say is communication. You communicate. You say I'm saying words to you. You're hearing. I hope they're intelligent. And you you you you process and there's sle to it and you think about what I'm saying. But beyond the words that are being said for example when I do this right that like I hope gives like you know makes it like sound more important I guess like gives kashas right you know why they invented reading glasses so you could take them off and wave them and then that's really important right the meta communication is everything you do that's beyond the words the smile the angry angry look, the frustrated look, your body language, your tone of voice, everything in the way you act and behave communicates. You cannot in fact one big I once learned from but he said a good vote and his vote was you cannot not communicate. You cannot not commute. Try sitting with your spouse in a room for more than 20 minutes and saying nothing. Try eating supper together and don't talk. Like just don't say anything and see what happens. Why are you upset with me? What did I do? I didn't mean it. No. You start like all your insecurities start pouring out. You know, you got tightness on me. I said last week and I didn't mean it. You're just quiet thinking, daydreaming. Oh, but no. If you're not, sit in a car. Go drive somewhere together and don't talk and see how long you last before someone gets nervous. You cannot not communicate. In fact, we spend our lives communicating and we are usually unfortunately and somewhat tragically unaware of what is it exactly we are actually communicating. And I'll show you how teeth it goes. It's amazing. You could say the words I love you. You go to courtai the you know the the judge. Did you say you love? Yes. I said I love you. Now watch this. You tell me if I love you. Ready? I love you. I love you. Okay. I love you. I said it. All right. I said the words, right? You know I love you, right? I said it. But I did say the words. I said the words. I love you. And around the matter means beyond. The words themselves only have meaning in context. So we say things and then someone says but I said this and they said you never said it. In my office, it's padik. And two people, husband and wife, will come in and they swear to me what happened in their kitchen and who said what and what went on. I said, never happened. I know what you're talking about. I never said it. Never said such a thing. And they said, "Oh, I wish there was a videape." And they say, "You want the videape? I want the videape. I'm telling you, I never said it." What is she really saying? Of course you said the words, but the package I said, you know, she said, "Will you change the light bulbs?" I said, "Yeah, I'll change the light bulbs." What does that mean? Most men, yeah, I'll change the light bulbs. Means, I don't know if I'll change the light bulbs. I'll see if I'll change the light bulbs. I don't know, you know, I'm not sure yet. The words were, I changed the light. Yeah, I changed the light bulbs. Most women finally that what that means nothing. She goes and changes it herself. Meta communication is everything other than what you're saying. And actually what's amazing about it is that the communication that's beyond the words is cove what the words mean. The words themselves actually only have a meaning in context and the actual words change dependent on how you express them. So you could say I love you where I love you and you know I love you and you know it's meant and you say I love you. Yeah, I love you. Okay, I love you. Fine, that's it. And then she goes off crying and you wonder why [Music] this suga we're going to talk about is about how mixed messages occur. the mixed messages where you think you said one thing and in fact you said something else and then you wonder like what happened with your kid because your kid grew up never sure of what you heard of what you meant rather and by the way they know what they want to hear. They know what they want to hear. So if he says, "Can I, you know, t can I go? I just want to run to the store." And you say, "Better not," he's out the door. Because better not wasn't definitively no. T didn't say no. You said better not. So you gave over to me and he's all mad fumy. He went to the store. I told him better not. And yet that's what he heard. He heard if you want to go, I'd rather you don't, but you can go. I'm not going to stop you. the package around the message is always defines what the message actually means and in parenting it's so crucial and particularly by the way this I I can't do it now but I'd love to make a real analysis in my humble opinion for the AngloIraeli about how what happens when our children hear or rather your children. Mine grew up in Kutzo. They came afterwards. But the children who grew up here Israeli with parents, imagine in my humble opinion where they miss and different and hear different nuances in what we're saying and meaning because it's all culturally biased. what American means and what he thinks he means when he says something whether it's in Hebrew or in English is is hard enough if your kids grew up with you in the same country with the same culture the same you know environment you're still going to mess it up what's the chances with a different language I'd love to make an analysis of it I think we'd all be shocked if we would like get the list you know parents said this what did you hear I think we'd all be flabbergasted and that we're not about rebellious kids about just regular kids. It's partially it's partially has to be that way if we know it occurs constantly in the same language. Imagine a foreign culture and lang where they grow up in the foreign culture schools with a foreign system and the foreign language and the nuances init which is so different to the nuances in English it's it's padik there are different types of mixed messages let's do the ones the easy ones first the um what time do I have to finish by the way 3:45 okay the let's do the very easy ones first the passive what I call the passive mixed messages as opposed to the active mixed messages. What's the passive ones? The passive ones are things like let's take some really easy ones like learning, right? What's a passive mixed message by learning is where we are stuck on top of our kids to make sure they're learning, you know, and they go to their s and they get to yeshiva on time and we ourselves have already kind of let it go where we're busy with panasa and we're busy with whatever we're doing and we're simply not learning very much anymore. Do you see the mixed message? If a child is not is hearing but not seeing. So what does that mean to a child where you get and and worse still if you get angry with him about B's man or B Taylor where he himself sees you reading all sorts of magazine and doing all sorts of other things and phone calls and who knows what you're else doing but not the kite with learning that we had in the days in yeshiva and then he sees us that way. What does that mean? What kind of mixed me? What are we actually saying to So there we are getting all frustrated and upset and angry about his learning and his where does he see a dogma of that? Does he see a commitment to that? That's a passive mixed message. You're not telling it to him openly and val but does he see it? Does he feel it? Does he experience it? If he doesn't see a genuine sincerity in well then what does it mean when we tell it to him? It's half-hearted. It's not real because it's not really the core values. Benching. Benching is a classic. By the way, both say benching. There's no better dugma for the classic confusion of mixed messages than benching. Here's what goes on in most homes. You know, you got little kids around the table. Comes to benching and you start benching, right? So, you start benching. Okay. No, no, no, no. Like, what is that? I heard from an odd god once who who once told me I hadn't gotten to say, but he said that you should never ever do that ever. Just bench like a malik. Just take a bencher, mother and father, and bench like a malik. All this newing stuff where you're sacrificing your benching, what exactly you telling him about the kashivas of benching when your entire benching apparently has new written into it all the way through. What are you telling him or her? And you interrupt. She holds ve you know you're not meant to hold a child a baby. I I cannot know no one on earth who keeps this says you're not actually allowed to hold a baby while you're benching because it will disturb you from your bench. It will distract your attention all this newing stuff and forcing them. So bench you want to bench them bench afterwards but show them a dugma. It's a mixed message. It's a passive mixed message where a VA we should bench but benching is not to be taken very seriously. How about giving stalker? I had this one many times over the years where kids would tell me, you know, we talked about these kind of discrepancies, shall we call them, and they would say how, you know, where my father would give a galdasher on the parish about stocker and ha giving stalker and stuck and then the mash comes to the door and he says, "Shh, everyone quiet. Shh." mixed messages or the or he sees a frustration when the mushim come. If you got no money and you don't have much to give, you give what you got. If you don't have, give them a smile. Give them a handshake. Give them a cup of water. Oh, give them warmth. Give them kind. Let the child see that it's to you. Mash the the nervous tension. Another mash. That's the seventh one tonight. And the complaining that goes with it, it's mixed messages. What are we doing? What are we telling again? And I'm telling you like with the I love you Marshall that the meta communication the package around it if it's contradictory to the words you say the package is always cove the child the person believes the package not the words that's what we take seriously how about this one talking simply talking patiently and kindly to your spouse. Having a home where when whatever you discuss is always patient and kind soft. It may be a hard subject. I'm not about disagreeing. I'm not getting there yet. I'm simply talking about talking about where the Yahas is one of respect and as if you're talking to an autumn. See, then we have the kids who grow up where unfortunately we slip up with this and the tensions and nervousness of life get in the way and we get nervous and it's late and we got to get the kids off. Where's the coats? I went the backpack and it's only one shoe. Where's the other shoe? What's going on with the shoe? Why? I didn't find the shoe. even put his shoe out to like and and before you know it there's this like examination of the flaws in our whole life and Johan Hoger and and then we're surprised when the kids come home and then you got a question on a panel you did cover how do I deal with kids how do I deal with we're perfect but they're a mixed message. It's like foundation that we talk to each other with kindness, with sensitivity and we work on it. We do the best we can to try to be respectful and talk so that then our kids will grow up in a dugma where that's the message they got. This is the way you're na. We don't you by us most of us it's unfortunately drushes. We're so good at dashioning. We we're much gvalding when it comes to drushes about doing the right thing as opposed to actually doing it. It's a mixed message about being on time. I don't know what happened to Kasnas but it's fascinating you know they make the joke about you know bisum you know until everyone comes come on time bis you know it's like what is it you go I I finished a cycle of dafi by going to on time there was no one there to bother me it was mamish gvaldic when it was a kasa I went on time took my no one's there bothering me like what is that respect for people's time and we're like that. It's all this. So what do we expect that our kids then copy that or they learn for us that we're mpid a time is a time and we respect people's time. It's dignified. It's not it's undignified not to. These are passive mis mixed messages that imbue our lives. And similarly when you know something happens a rov gives up suck you know and you don't happen to like that suck you know. So really that's all it takes really n we say on that n really you know it doesn't take much they get paricetic comes home this is the biggest yates of all of us when the para sheet has spelling mistakes it would be lovely if it didn't oh but they do I don't know maybe they're under pressure I don't know what it is do we really have to make fun of the spelling mistakes like what is that. So whoever it was, they're probably anglo-Israeli. They don't know either language probably. Who knows? You know what it is? But they mean well. But no, that's not the time at the table. So, oh, look, spell. I'm not doing this particular. Don't they know how to spell mommy with one member? I don't know whatever it is. No, but we do this stuff without thinking. It became part of our like life without think. These are passive mixed messages and they come out of us and guess what? Our kids grow up and magnify them because we taught them that that's okay. We taught them that's acceptable to the active mixed message. And the active as opposed to the passive, that's horrendous. The active is where we actually fight with each other and argue and debate each other like unpleasantly in front of the kids where husband the kids are witness see I'm not saying husbands and wives will always agree as a matter of fact it is posh you say and true and I found a maharal that says it that men and women get married and do not get along naturally it's alivi I once gave a dr and lakewood on this subject mash was masking to me. I could say it publicly and I did and everyone was relieved finally. We do not get along naturally. It's alvi. Oh, but you know why? Because then we work on that schlamus to get along naturally and bring children up in a home where they recognize that different kas different shamas, different needs, different values can work out how to be respectful to each other. They watch that and witness that. Sure, we're meant to disagree, of course, with respect and covered and kindness and sensitivity and willingness to be matering to hear another person. A vado we are. Imagine what the mixed message is and and no surprise when I hear people come for consultation and and the kids they always they scream at us. They mammish scream at us and very gently and respectfully I sometime you know I'll ask like do you ever scream at each other in front of the kids? Does that ever happen? Yeah. So good. Your kids got good they follow the imamish like they followed you. They're following your footsteps. What's the problem here? Beautiful. the the active mix mix the active one like like a kid says like I gave before the marshall the kid wants to go out to the store it's late at night they want to go and you tell the kid no no no don't go don't go I I don't think you should go what exactly did he say should I do that again no no I I really think I really think you shouldn't Did he say you shouldn't go? What did he say? And then the kid goes and there's an explosion. I told you not to go. The active mixed messages where you don't give clarity. You have to be clear. And if you don't know, by the way, we don't know. Most of the time we're clueless. We're just so caught up in like if I say no, he's going off the dur. And if I say, you know, if I say yes, then maybe he'll love me today and he'll go off to tomorrow. Okay, fine. Let's let's get another day of like we're all so terrified. So we tuck a don't know. We're posh, frightened out of our wits, all of us. So we tuck a don't know and we end up giving a mixed message and then we get mad with them. You know, it's perfectly fine to say, "I'm not sure. Come back in 5 minutes. Come back in 5 minutes. I'll tell you in 5 minutes." And then by the way it's good when they say no but I need to know now. You say okay the answer is no. Is it a clear no? If there's any other possible alternative answer that'll be when you leave the room and come back in 5 minutes. It may still be no. It may still be no. But if you force me it's no. Did I do that? Oh and my kids are all here. I'm like nervous like crazy. What are they thinking? And apparently they're nodding so I'm okay. Sh. So the active disrespecting for shalom disrespecting a husband and wife to each other in front of the kids. That's the active m mix message. And if you don't know what to say, say I don't know. I don't know. I need to think about it. Come back to me 5 minutes, 10 minutes tomorrow, whatever it is. Speak to your spouse. Work it through. Come with an answer. But whatever you do, don't do the I don't think so. It's probably better not to. I not sure. No, no, no. Okay, you can go. What kind of is that? And worse still, when you're halfway through the start screaming, you say fine, go. I mean, it's even worse. That's the last category. We got the passive and the active. And the last one is the empowering mixed message where you empower your kids to realize they're stronger than you because you start telling them what you hold and they start whining or butchering or threatening or whatever they do. Kids, you know, as long as they cycle through all the possibilities, you're doing good. By the way, if if your kids do the same thing all the time, you're in trouble because they obviously worked out how to play you. But if they cycle, you know, they'll do the plea. Oh, mommy, I really love you and if you let me go, I'll do all the dishes the whole week and I'll do the laundry and everything. I'll do everything. Am I going? Okay, good. Right. So, I'm not in the mood for the laundry. Yeah. But if they cycle, the next one is I hate you. I hate you. You know how much I hate you cuz you I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. Then that didn't work. They say fine. I'm not talking to you. Not talking to you. If I can't go, I'm not talking to the rest of my life. Not right. And then I'm going to hurt your uncle if you don't let me go. As long as they're cycling, that means they're looking for another mahalak. You're winning. Like, just don't high-five your spouse till they're out the room. Like, hang in there. You want them to cycle. They're always looking, but if they've got one and it works, you're in trouble. They got your number. The worst thing is to empower your kids. You know the the the kids, you know, in America, we used to have these box drinks. They What do they have in this? What do they call them here? They must be what do they say? Box drinks. And he does everyone know what box drinks are? You know, box with the drink. You put a straw in and drink it. Box drinks. What? What they called here? Choco. I don't know. Trop Okay, fine. Every country has their own, you know, everyone knows what box drinks, right? I say the box drinks for some reason there must be it's like an isidas to eat in the house. They're only for out of the house on a trip going to school, but you can't eat it. You can't drink one in the house. You know, it's an isa suffici. So you come downstairs and this kid as you walk into the kitchen goes like this, right? And you say, "What's behind your back?" They say, "Nothing. Nothing." The kid's four. Nothing. Nothing. You say, "What's behind your back?" Nothing. Nothing. Turn around. Anyway, you go over. You've got a box drink. You took a box drink. Yo, come down. Took a box drink. Ah. What did we do? He took a box drink. What are we doing? We're empowering our children. When you call in reinforcements over a box string, you pretty much finished your tenure as a parent. You're done. I mean, if you think your your kids going to have any respect for you ever again if you need reinforcements for a box drink. Yeah. I can't. He's like a box drink again. I can't. I can't. Don't buy the box. I told you not to buy over on the other thing. The active mix version. I told you not to buy the box strings. Why are you buying the box strings? A box drink. We empower our children. Children love secondary gains. There is nothing more fabulous to a child to feel powerful. They realize they don't have the keys. They don't have the credit card. They don't have money. So what do they have to feel powerful? They want to feel powerful. They have making you feel small. Cuz you're powerful because you've got keys and credit cards and money. So you must be powerful in the kid's eyes, right? So when they can make you cry, but they can make you beg for reinforcements, where they can hold you hostage over a box drink, they must be pretty powerful at four years old. I'm a cracker. We have to be clear. What are we saying to our kids with authority, with dignity, with clarity? And if you're not sure, put it off till later. Theus of what we do in our homes is to give clarity to our children. Rivia is a relatively easy of the mitzvah. The hard of the same mitzvah. Look in look at the nice iss to bring up a citizen to live in this world in a healthy way. That's the hard part. And to do that properly, we have to give clear messages to our children. We have to give them a clear honest message about life. What's good, what's bad, what's right, and what's wrong. And failing to do that, they find the flaws, they find the weaknesses, they find the confusion, and they come out confused. So the Torah teaches us this fantastic suga of Ben Syra to teach us this. Listen to this. The gumar said that it cannot be a rebellious child cannot be a bener unless the father and mother are the same in km mara. So I want to tell you what I think it means. It does not mean coal does not mean their voice a man's voice is deep. A lady's voice is light is higher. Cole means the same voice. We're giving the same message. Mara is facial expression. Ka is body language. It's the same facial expression, body language and tone of voice. The meta communication has to be the same. And if it's not the same, you know why? Because it's not his fault. Because it's not his fault. It's our fault. because we didn't give proper messages to our kid and listen to the gar is guess what you can't do it. It's not doable. No husband and wife could ever get their kids. Every single message you ever gave to your kid was exactly the same mara tone of voice facial expression body language on every single thing was the same impossible and from this hood leos it'll never be so why do we learn it so I found a fantastic inference in a mash I can't say it's the mash it's an inference in a mash where the mash Shaw answers and says you're not it's not we got a lot of other things to learn but if you if you learn this of mixed messages and you understand the on husband and wife to work out how to try with every ounce of to give our kids the same messages tone of voice facial expression body language is consistent with the words that we say if we work hard at it then kabul The is not it's the if we would do this and work on this we would alleviate a million of the problems we face. Thank you very much. Have a wonderful weekend.