HEADLINES With Dovid Lichtenstein - The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, The REAL STORY

this Tower class is brought to you by torahanytime.com joining us from New York is Rabbi Danielle Gladstone he's the Rove of cahillas to Harris Mordechai in Cedarhurst he's the author of a number of swarm about the about the Holocaust including the art scroll book Darkness at dawn welcome repzinil uh similar to my brother thank you for the opportunity good morning so we want to speak about the Warsaw Ghetto and you know it's it's a resistance that became enshrined by you know Alex Israel certainly by the secular Israelis as a sign of heroism and you know how unarmed a group of unarmed you know basically against the might of the German Army and how long they kept them at day a great sacrifice and it was done was there and I understand that your grandfather was the advisor or not the advisor was the Meijer back during this period can you tell us what your family what the kabbalah's ishbps in your family about what transpired there work uh look thank you for the opportunity just to share some uh very personal memories of what my grandfather told told me personally I heard this from him many times um my grandfather revereign before the war um he was very close with aldrab on him in Warsaw at the time as he mentioned there were three great Simpsons Shapiro who he was the the double County was the youngest among them and uh well we'll speak about they were given the opportunity to flee but romance from zemba was the preeminent uh Godzilla that my grandfather always described where Malcolm zumba's house looked like November I had more than 10 000 pages of kaduce he had a farm shrunk behind his chair not filled this forum filled with his own personal manuscripts foreign so Malcolm zembo was offered to be the receiver of uh halfway leblen after man Shapiro who's offered to be the chief Rabbi of Jerusalem he was the god of Adar and he was the number one address to every pressing Thailand those very dark times look this is a matter of considerable controversy and it's important by the way they say that his he had 19 volumes of hidushim on the rambam that were buried in the Warsaw Ghetto and they could not be found and I understand many attempts were made to find the the writings of he was a big correspondent with the rageeva who considered him an equal amazingly as well as Rene and another point that my grandfather would would make and I I want a very important to convey is you know all those names you mentioned are are you know brilliant luminaries the midoise of reminiscent I I heard that he would go to the the guy real bestition and he would sit in the crowd like anybody else after one test that lasted many hours the person behind him had his elbow dug into him now his back for hours and after he saw what he did to America for hours I'm so sorry no when we when we stand in front of the Rebel we're all equal so he had his mid eyes were otherworldly and he was watered by the way to be he was he was offered to be the wrath of yerushalayim yes right after uh yesterday was he has to have done himself but but whatever it was off to be raviors also like you say often to be Rashid yeah I and and uh besides my grandfather being a bandaias by grandfather was also best best friend so from Nathan zamba's two nephews have room to zemba and it's a nice member who were both um uh incredibly my grandfather was with avrambler and Auschwitz and avrama passed away 50 years ago and my grandfather and his best friend a bunch of them were buried on the exact same day or they pay 50 years apart but in any event by the way one more one one though Tower listen to Charlotte here served as the chairman of the mayatsis he said he would only do it if would do it in Partnership or the national museum was only 45 years old at the time unbelievable unbelievable he's with one who spoke at the third commission he was the keynote spoke up speaker he spoke twice in front of the entire crowd it was considered the the address that's the thing was the address of just to give people never heard of him because he he was killed he was gunned down on in the war right he he left his children were killed he his he his his his son had any surviving areas and his daughter but his kids were killed and there's no surviving grandchild in the world no no the only thing we have for him really is is yeah yeah so um as you mentioned it's a point of considerable controversy and for good reason look elaboration we never pride ourselves in physical arm and and physical resistance and there were a great rabbanim who were students held that there's no way where Malcolm Zumba endorsed the uprising however all I could say is and you know I'm not looking to enter controversy but my grandfather was there Not only was he there he was an American zumba's Lookout during the uprising and my grandfather says certainly when that from Zamba held it was a matter of Hashem this is reported in writing by Ravi Feingold uh he writes in 1942 November said when we times Hashem yes that's what the Feingold reports of course everybody knows uh zeidman likewise that we cannot go voluntarily we needed to resist we fooled ourselves into thinking that uh they want the outcome would have been as it was actually my grandfather had a remarkable Vision he just passed away above it last year at 106 years old and he said the hardest part about turning 100 was seeing the Russia ICS so he had a remarkable vision and he was from zemba's Lookout during the uprising so one way they say that you could reconcile what uh rather Simka alberg maintained that did not support the uprising explain to the date why should you oh I shouldn't you what were the two sides uprising I'll tell you the truth I'm not here to provide a halachic um discussion about that that issue I'm here to tell you the facts it's based on what my grandfather said that what is said what is reported as to why it's turned Asylum felt from from the outside it wouldn't have been uh proper is because maybe infuriated the Germans and it just um it hastened the liquidation of the wars the ghetto um but for those who were there and for those who are present there was a shift in attitude and this is a very important to Cuda between pre-1942 and post 1942 and this is something we see in the writings of the piazepna pre-1942 the assistant the accessories have faith this is not a new phenomenon we have to understand the tragedies and and the difficulties in the context of 2000 years of golus this is nothing new we've been through coronation we've been through Crusades we've been through Inquisition and this is just another chapter we've you know been there done that but in 1942 when the Germans began the systematic liquidation of European jewry the piazepza Reba amended his writings and he said everything I wrote was ad Khan but nikan now what we see the Jewish people have never experienced anything similar comparable to this Mass extermination and it's suggested that it's it was under these new conditions that while typically you know armed resistance was not the traditional Jewish approach to uh to dealing with the gullus we usually tried um more discrete diplomatic measures but you know um uncalled four times cold for uncalled for measures this was something romance viewed perhaps as ah because of this this experience that was just fundamentally and dramatically different than anything we ever experienced before sir this is and look um you know the answer of the Albert what do you know about Chrysler was also a revolt and ravikiva supported that so uh said well that was this and that was an RC swallow that was defending their Homeland this was in the golos and that may have been the traditional approach until 1942. so again you know I'll leave I'll leave the debate to people much greater than myself I'm just uh reporting for the sake of historical records what my grandfather told me what he told our family what he spoke about publicly what he wrote about what he published and it's important to know that that many of not only the students but those who were with him they did maintain their own Zumba at least in those trying times held there was an element of hirosha so um and this is something I wrote about in um in the article book The Darkness um and as we mentioned there were three to dial them there in the wars the ghetto uh you had with Simpson stockhammer romance Shapiro and I will tell you I had a great grandfather who was in the war for ghetto my great-grandfather um my grandfather's father-in-law who he was not his son at the time was the last rev of the city of sakotov his name was and he was the last throughout the city of he was the terminal he was taken to the Warsaw Ghetto and he was given an opportunity to save his skin to survive yeah was going to rescue him and bring him to America and they were going to carve out a new position for him Chief Rabbi of the United States of America first time that they would have that position and he turned them down and he said he's he's uh Raya Neman he's a he's a faithful Shepherd of kigila much of sahitya was taken to the worst Organo and he would not save his life and leave his kahila behind and this is one of the great dilemmas of the Warsaw Ghetto uh 1943 April 19 1943 there was an official court case Shapiro they had gotten word from the Jordan rod they have the Catholic Church of Ortho were going to uh save these three to dailam and they had 24 hours to escape and they convene the best in and because it's DNA in five stars so Place coming out cut down and with David Kahana Shapiro spoke up and he said we cannot run away um we can't abandon the people in The Darkest Hour we have to encourage them we have to strengthen them uh could we run from the almighty the same God who's found here will be found outside and those are the words of David Connor sapiro and with stockholmer and ronakum zemba could not comment there's nothing left to say the monastery said there's no let there be no further discussion tell the Jordan rat we're not leaving and that was the Passat of this The Haunting court case of April 19 1943. my grandfather was present in the ghetto at the time um and this is a matter of considerable halashic debate uh this is a question posed to the fitness many by many Godzilla what should we do should we leave our communities or should we save our life did not answer directly instead he would always point to a dracious thumb cycle and the Russia's exam Cipher has a very lengthy in-depth analysis of this particular subject and if some Surfer says it's very hard to give a definitive ruling if you read what the sun say for writes he is inclined to say that you should save yourself but you know we'll leave that to the uh reader to see the concept of inside because I'm sorry for says the debate is this is on the other hand right there's two other things there's some scientific discusses there's a question is do you say hey all right so here is a question as a leader of a community as a spiritual leader maybe there is no dinner as the leader of a community right maybe there's a moral obligation to to be a captain came back they say that the devara of rum right uh was in the cover of the ghetto he was the same he was given the ability to run he didn't Alexander rabba the radamskaraba didn't on the other hand the satma rabba famously did um the gay rev and the bells the rebel left so you see that on and it's interesting to note that the Alexander Rebel said he's not believing he was killed and sadly most of the hasidus Alexander disappeared right those so you know it's a girl was able to uh Escape you see the hasidim that were able to escape and he really don't yeah yeah so it's it's a debate didn't they and it hasn't been you can't really answer such a question came back and and rabaran fled so it's like it was it was both by the Sea demand the lip Fisher this was uh you know Fierce debate yes the interesting thing is some social rights that went back to the times where the noise of himself wanted to leave the city of Prague when tag wasn't Siege and the community leaders did not allow him um when the city of Maine's was uh besieged the city made sense but I embarrassed to Frankfurt so some Services it's a it's an age-old debate he he wants something wants to say is it was a mahalicus and reviews that guy fled the city it's uh it's a very interesting Makar but yes that guy fled the city Jeremiah Navi was in jail he stayed with the people you could see the dresses on safer hate tamils paid Shin hey so it's very hard uh to weigh in and to say that one one Mahala says better or is not better I think one thing we could safely say is that those admirim or godelum were able to flee uh and rebuild their yes because of them but we could equally say that Hassan it's their blood and their messiest methods that lay the groundwork for the uh the future the the resurrection and the uh revisification and and Resurgence of the Jewish people today my own great grandfather died out to SSM in the wars the ghetto and it's the source of Pride to to me to my family that he wouldn't abandon the Jewish people in uh in their time of distress I mean what's the biggest greater uh greatest Accolade is to be a Raya Muhammad to be a faithful separate to the Jewish people so sure what were the words you heard from your grandfather from the national museum position in the Warsaw Ghetto they were not permitted to go like sheep to slaughter that that was disparaging to the Dignity of the Jew and in order to preserve coverage Israel they had to wage that's what my grandfather told me you know it wasn't a matter of what the results would be it was a matter of making the statement that we're not uh we're not going to sweep the house we're going to stand up for our lives um that Echoes the opinion of Revis Feingold another seidman that is Hashem well Muhammad Smith is where you're fighting to save your life the argument here would be is that by doing this they were guaranteeing their death not saving their lives so Muhammad Smith is a difficult argument no I need to to be missing us but one could humble humbly assert that if standing up for Jewish pride is Israel Karen hattorak it's the honor and the glory of the Jewish people where when the creation went a the same way they they didn't die crying they died dancing in the Flames they died singing it's it's a statement of emuna it's a statements and beliefs in the afterlife yes they knew hello that it is but Muhammad Smith says it's not I was asking on the points in the sense of standing up for the honor of the Jewish people so in that sense it's the mukama that you need to do and in the greater sense of Muhammad I think it would be hard to to categorize it as uh according to the strict how lastic interpretation you take the position that if the Jews in Europe as a whole had said look you want to take us every inch we're gonna we're gonna fight you right if that had been The Stance and there would have been a million German deaths along with the Six Million Jewish deaths so saying this should be our position going forward so him fighting would have a dinner because in effect he's creating an atmosphere that will a lot will allow for Less death not in his prophetheistic position but Claudius he was setting a claw though everybody everyone you take is going to come at you with a gun so then it would have a general conversation after him but for the other you know for the rest of them I think the point was it was limited to the circumstance of the wars the ghetto it was so that they would not just be liquidated and taken to out to Auschwitz it was it was the point of Jewish Pride yes it there is a concept of standing up for the the honor of the Jewish people uh and that's what uh a grandfather and others maintained Adam to help and by the way the other question that you discussed whether should they leave or should they stay because he was Maximus himself into Sakana saranism happens that he himself didn't get killed so the question was why was he maxes himself into Sakana and the answer Israel so you see that and he was he was he was uh in a nicely as British he got tremendous accolades for doing that so he says this is one of the makiras that he would say that other should be imagining himself in the sakhana fat Solace Israel in other words just as he was and not he could have said look I'm leaving I want to save myself so it's just from out two parishes to go last week's parachute we have sort of a riot to this uh to this uh all right lasting thank you very much so so sharing with us your family memory in this matter it's so relevant these days of morning for the for the for the for the day some English thank you very much for your time okay thank you for the opportunity and we should uh cloudy so should only hear about and uh safe and good times you've just experienced another Torah class brought 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