He Refused to Stay a Victim | Zalman Danziger

And he took me into a classroom. It was empty, and he literally physically abused me for about 30 to 40 minutes. It was a long time. He locked the door. I tried to run out of it. He covered the door. The It was like a plastic looking I was numb as a child already. Like I had no emotions, no feelings. Like for me at least, it's I was bullied enough. I'm not going to give them now another excuse that I was also sexually abused to bully me more. >> This is a This is a case where the protector became the abuser. The I can't put words to it, but pain that the shame is only within you. It's not from others. And what message do you have to people not to be in denial and just like you said before, validate and support if you hear a survivor sharing, what can they do to help? Okay. Today, um our guest is a survivor of sexual abuse. One of the horrific ones, which is incest, betrayal. Uh but this story is not about pain. It's rather about power. We want to show a person who had a body who was broken and now it's rebuilt. His name is Alman Danziger. Welcome to the struggle podcast. Thank you for having me. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. Um before I start, I have to say one thing. In my eyes and in the eyes of whoever is going to listen to this, you're a hero for coming out. You're a hero for coming and talking about a sensitive subject. You're sharing your story. You're actually a role model for your children. Which means that you are teaching your children right from wrong. You are teaching your children something that you did not have. You stood up for what's right. You're stopping something. You're stopping a cycle of a vicious cycle of secrecy of uh in the name of family or in the name of community. You're coming out. You're teaching a lesson. You're saying, "No matter what you went through, you can get out of this." Um you're doing you're doing a great service to society. It's a tremendous gift that you're doing by coming out and letting people become aware that if something like this is happening and there is light by the end of the tunnel. The more I started doing that, obviously this is only the second time doing it in a public forum, but in a private forum with clients and with people, I started doing it. The more people open up and share their story and I went, "Wait a second. Wow, I'm not the only one. There's a lot of sexual abuse that goes through." Again, a lot of people going to say, "Yeah, but in our it's like there's a lot of sexual abuse that goes through in our community. I know that other communities and other cultures also have it." >> It happens, right? But by us, it's being pushed under the rug so good, so beautifully, unfortunately. >> Correct. For so many years and it's time to I'm not here to blame or to uh speak anything on abusers. I'm just here to share my story and carry all the people that shared their stories with me and to give it a voice Correct. that we went through and you can't shove it under the rug anymore. Right, because the [clears throat] silence is very painful. So, if a person has to keep this in silence and a lot of times they minimize the crime and that abuses the person again. So, what's interesting is also that what you're teaching by doing what you're doing, you're teaching the predators that they will know that one day these children are going to grow up and they will talk. Mhm. And this gives them a little idea of how where this is going to end up because if this is being pushed under the rug, they have a free for all. So, I want to get into this horrific childhood that you had. I want to know how you felt uh going home to a place which is supposed to be your safe house. This is supposed to be a place where everyone is safe. The children, this is a place where you need to be protected. And um it turned out to be the most unsafe place. Ooh. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. I Now looking back, I don't want to say everything was horrific and uh because honestly there were good times, right? There were trying to focus on the good times that I had and I'm over >> memories and there was >> Yeah, there was some good memories, there was some, you know, fun times, too. But the core of it all was pain. It like I was numb as a child already. Like I had no emotions, no feelings. Like I can be in hide and they never would like hit me and I wouldn't cry. Right. You didn't feel it. Of course I felt the pain. I was >> No, but I mean to say you emotionally you shut off. >> Yeah, I was shut off as a young child already. It was nothing and it's I look back, it's for me alone, it's like painful to see, like >> Right. There's no feeling involved. There's like nothing. >> Right. So, yeah, I there were fun moments and of course, but the core of it was very pain, was very shameful, was very like nobody wanted to be around Like it's it's it's I can't put words to it, but pain. Unbelievable stuff because what happens is that when a child um when anything is happening to a child, anything, they run home and they're looking for their protector. They run home and they're like, "Da, Ma, uh this happened and this and that." This is this This is a This is a case where the protector became the abuser. At times I didn't felt it that way, Mhm. to be honest, because you're a kid. A kid wants to feel safe. So, he's always going to make things sense, and I'm always going to blame myself that You blame yourself, and you would polish it in a way, and also you didn't know any better at that time. No, I had no idea that something is off is all wrong until I started realizing, "Okay, wait a second. Nobody's coming to our house. No No neighbors are are coming to play with us." Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> And later I even cousin Nobody's coming. Like and like I only realized it way way after that, "Okay, wow. That's This is how I grew up, and this is what the impact it had on me." And I'm like, I'm not the only one. Yeah. And when when did you start feeling that something is wrong? Like you said before, I didn't even know that this is wrong. I mean, this is how you grew up. Did you feel that anything is off as a certain age? I was so numb. I only start feeling that something was off at a later time in life. Wow. When because why would when I went to Yeshiva in a dormitory, I was bullied over there, too, right? So, I I [clears throat] was still being numb. Right. So, you had this mechanism of numbness, Yeah. and you took it wherever you went. So, exactly. So, the second I started to un numb myself, I started realizing, "Wow, what is like all that what happened?" Now, as far as the lies that you've been told, so let's say if you were uncomfortable and your privacy was invaded. What are the lies and manipulation that the people who abused you? Of course. What was that lie? Can you share the lies that they made it sound like it's it's nothing. It's a One lie, I I just want to check something out if it's okay. Just give me a second and real quick, I just want to And this was weird like in a room in a closet and all these because people need to be aware to teach their kids of these shenanigans that is going on. I want to get into the mind of these people. Most of those people prey on vulnerable. Correct. All right. Um I do believe that once you are that stage where you're a pedophile or whatever, you can sense They are very smart people. They can sense out vulnerability in a second. >> They see it from the other end of the room. >> Exactly. I mean, you can go to the room and you can pick this person, this person and nobody else. Correct. And some people go straight to the point. Some people like uh groom you. Like it's It takes time. And that's the What I What pains me the most is to see when somebody does come out with their story or start sharing, for some reason the abuser gets protected in our community. Of course. And like the abuser knew what he was doing. Exactly. They are They put effort into it. It's not It's not by mistake that somebody walked in and a hand just fell down. They knew what they're doing. They put effort in and now when I come heal myself and share my story to inspire others and to show what's going on and to fix things, don't run to protect the abuser. Wait a second. Yeah, because the the idea of um denying it and not believing it and minimizing the crime um is a double abuse. For sure. Again, I understand what people it's it's such a horrific abuse that people >> to believe it. They don't want to believe it. >> Right. They don't want to believe it and it's a shame. It's it's uh Because they can't do anything to it so they'd rather just shove it under the rug. Right. Cuz what can they do? They can't. But at least I know what I can do. And I know the feedback I got I got from it. From people. Yeah. So, I know at least you know what? Maybe I have the power because I went through it and I saw myself out of it. Like I went through the a model, a puddle and I cleaned myself basically on my own. Sure. So. Now, as far as did you have anybody during those times to share this with? Like one person that you can go and a friend or an adult, anybody that this was hidden in you? If it's Yeah, I didn't know you For two reasons. One, you don't want to recognize that it happened to you. It didn't happen to me. It's too painful. Right. It's too [snorts] shame >> painful. Correct. And who am I going Who am I going to to share it even? Right? I'm afraid they're going to make fun of me that it happened. Right. I don't want I'm I'm For me at least, I've no idea what Everyone that goes through abuse, there can be two people in the room or three people in the room go through the same abuse. Everyone has it a different way. Everyone has a different effect. Every brain is different for every human being. For me at least, it's I was bullied enough. I'm not going to give them now another excuse that I was also sexually abused to bully me more. So, you kept it inside? >> Yeah. What's the reason to share? I never felt the reason to share. I never felt What what's What's the point of it all until I realized no, there is help and there is ways to share it and there is ways to do it and you know, it's I guess I never had until I shared it, I never had that safe space. Right. You must be very safe and you must be I always had a very hard time trusting people. Of course, because this was the the the the biggest betrayal uh happened to you Mhm. from the people who were supposed to have your back, who you going to trust? Who you going to trust? You mentioned about bullying. So, what my idea is I want to talk about when you grew up and you went through horrific times. Terror. You're a young child. Nobody knows anything. You didn't share anything with anybody. And you come to school. And for some particular reason, you're being bullied. Now, share a little bit what bullying is, what it what how did it feel while you were carrying secrets inside. How From a point of view of a child, how did you feel being bullied? I know the feeling. Now, as a child, you don't know what the feeling is. Correct. >> But, it's one word to put it, but belittlement to a whole next level. You feel nothing. You going to school hide it. You feel like a merushka compared to everyone else. You Whatever you going to say, you have to like even as like 8-year-old, 9-year-old, >> Right. you have to juggle your words of what I'm going to say, of how I'm going to act. You can't be yourself. You can't act yourself cuz everyone is going to make fun of it. Yeah, at least that's my belief because I'm being bullied. >> Right. So, it's it's it's belittlement to a whole next level. You are not yourself. You you lose your identity basically. >> Correct. You don't know who you are. But, is there a reason that now, looking back, and this happens every day. We're talking about this. Children all over the world are complaining about bullying. Is there a reason why you were being bullied or is just a couple of guys who a couple of kids who were just, you know, Still to this day, I have no idea. I would love I love honesty and I always tell people I love honesty. Just be open with me and still to this day I just you know what? Come to me and tell me was there a reason you bullied me? >> Right. What was it really? When you an easy target was I I guess so. I I have no idea. I guess so. When you say bullying, what is bullying? Just uh like like talking down to you laughing not getting not including you in in groups or in games or what is bullying? Why were you What is Give me an example of So at a younger age it was one type of bullying. It was making talking down to me making fun of all anything that I do basically. And clothing the way you were dressed >> No, not not that I My mother did a good job with that actually. Yes. Uh not my other clothing. I don't know what it was. It's it's could be my behavior. Mhm. I was always a very innocent child. Mhm. Very uh maybe naive. Right. Um so that's how I was bullied. So I I could still today I have no idea why I was bullied. It's still Why you were the person that Yeah, I don't know why. But at a later age when I was like 13, 14 and then 15 to a different issue but it was words. It was every action that I did was bullied. Every I know if I'm going to eat I'm going to get bullied. So okay, well I have to eat right I can't and I have to do it. If I'm going to clean I'm going to get bullied. If I'm going to ask for a favor I'm going to get bullied. Everything that I did like I can't ask my friend if I can take something. Like I have something. I know I I'm going to get bullied. Right. Even today there's sometimes it's >> [laughter] >> I don't care anymore for that. But it's I have no idea why and I would love to know and I always tell me like I would love to know the real like was there a reason like tell me like And did you complain about bullying like let's say to the school or to Back then? There was nobody to talk to. And also how about in the at Did you complain to your mom or to your I don't think I I saw it as I can remember that I ever had a relationship with my parents where I can share my true feelings how I felt. Wow. No safety. So that when you think about it and you talk about bullying, especially knowing what you went through, the judgment, how is this uh Altogether I should take you on corner. Which means that you can't judge somebody till you're in his place. No. Now people walking around the streets and judging other people, like if they don't like someone's the way someone is dressed, or they don't like um what the person said, or how the person behaved, you have no idea what is going on in that person's mind, what kind of It doesn't have to be horrific. It could be other problems that the person has. And it happens with adults, too. You don't know what kind of problems a person has at home, business, this, that, whatever's bothering him, puts up a beautiful face on the outside. >> [gasps] >> But to just go and judge people is is is an awareness that needs to be uh it's so important. Judging us, I believe, again, cuz I s- I used to be that, right? I was also in so much pain. Right. It comes from a weakness inside. Correct. I always tell people um people will show you their insecurities if you just ask for it. Right. >> They will show it to you right away. For an example, if I would tell you, I want to open a business and this is what I want to do. If it doesn't sit with you, you will show me your insecurities and your weakness right away by communicating with me. >> Judging is one of the biggest weakness that people have. Just look at yourself for a second. Stop judging someone. Just look at yourself in the mirror. So, I I it comes from that, and it's true, you can never know what somebody is going through, and it's it's very painful to see how people judge other people just in in a second, but that's the society, that's Yeah, the world that we live in. >> Yeah. Now, did you ever blame yourself? For the most part, I blame myself of things that happened that I Let's say the bullying part, I blame myself. Okay, maybe I need to do this so that they shouldn't bully me. Maybe cuz I couldn't figure out why they're bullying me. And but I know I'm being bullied, so I always blame myself. Okay, maybe I need to please people or whatever it is. Like it's Okay, they shouldn't, but that never helped. So, I always blame myself even more. I think that's just a natural response of every human being when they're being abused to to blame themselves when they're going through something. What about the sexual abuse? Did you feel that um there is something to there's something that you did that this is happening to you? Funny enough, I don't know if other people who went through this abuse will have the same experience, but for me at least, I say sexual abuse for me was one of the easy abuse that I went through. Wow. What do you mean by that? I mean, what other abuse did you mean? Physical >> physical abuse. >> Physical abuse, and then mind that you were the way you should you were manipulating in the many ways. >> yeah, manipulation, narcissistic abuse. So, so tell me about mind manipulation. What does that mean? Like made you the way you should think and what you should do. >> Yeah, the the way I should believe about myself, the way Even though I I knew it was wrong, I knew it doesn't sit right with me, but I had no a voice to say it out. I was afraid to say it. I cuz I >> This was when you were a teenager? It started when I was a bit younger than a teenager, like 10, 11, 12, I don't know, but if I'm going to tell someone, let's say to do a push-up. Yeah, I do fitness to do a push-up. I have to be good in doing it, right? Correct. But, if somebody's going to tell me, an authority of mine is going to tell me, you have to dress a certain way, you have to be a certain way, you would expect that person to be that, too. Correct. And if that person is not it, for me, that's called manipulation, too. Right. You can't tell me to do something, and then I look at you, and you're not doing it, and it's you're playing with my mind. And it's not only that, it's First of all, to to abuse me, Right. >> right, to have your way with me, Right. is to manipulation. Sure. So, it's it's playing mind games with your own self. You don't trust yourself. You don't It's It's Yeah. It's It's uh mind-boggling what you're saying. Um Let me ask you something. As far as Yiddishkeit goes, Okay. you grew up in a Yiddish home. >> [clears throat] >> You were taught Shema Yisrael. [snorts] You were taught Shabbos. And here, you have this tsunami of confusion in your in your in your childhood. What did that do to your Yiddishkeit? You went to school. You heard the rebbe. You heard uh the school the the the the You heard about Yiddishkeit. You had a mother who told you there's a rabbonim should learn. And in the meantime, you have this storm going on in your head, which did not make sense. What did that do to you? It made me in uh not feel connected to anything. It cut off the connection part of it all. I didn't believe that any anything else. I mean, yeah, I did it. I played the part, but to believe in it, it's I always say like, you can play a big game, but once you see behind the scenes of something, it's hard to enjoy it, right? Once I saw the behind the scenes of how gets done in the abuse because I wasn't just abused at home, I was abused in hider manipulated in hider. Physically abused. I'm not talking about physically sexually was in hider too but to I was physically abused at the whole next level. Once you see that and once you how they be hopefully nowadays it's better. Everyone says it's better. I still believe things are going down. I mean I'm not foolish to believe it's it stopped because somebody starts speaking out. Doesn't work that way. Um once you see that whatever this person is going to tell me you have no value in my brain. You have no authority anymore in my brain. I'm just going to submit to the pain and to the to the abuse because I'm a child and I can't run away and I can't do anything. There's no way to go. You were saying that the leper hider abused as well? Now did he how did he identify you as a vulnerable child that he can do something like that? How? Yeah. I wish I would know. It just happened? It just happened. I have no idea why. I mean I can tell you I can share exactly what happened. It was back when I was in kitta Zion it was. And he took me into a classroom. It was empty and he made or somebody made up a story about me that was not true at all. And but it fit my character that it could happen to me but it wasn't true. Honestly, I cannot say it's not true because he's never going to believe me. He wants to get his way with me. He took me into a room. And it literally physically abused me for about 30 to 40 minutes. It was a long time. He locked the door. I tried to run out of it. They covered the door. The it was like a plastic looking. He covered it and it was just time after time after time just hit me hit me hit me. I guess he I don't know what he wanted with me. No sexual abuse but physical abuse to a whole next level. I went home, I was black and blue. Honestly, I was afraid to tell my parents what happened cuz I knew if I say something and the reason why they also wouldn't believe me and I would just get more. So, I told them a story that I fell down from a big rock. There was a big rock in front of the hiding and Monroe. So, I fell down from that rock. I mean, if I see my son with that marks and he tells me that he fell down from a rock and all that's That's not from a rock. But, I guess I don't know why they believed me, but they did. So, that's one of the abuse. Like, it's the second abuse is also belittlement abuse. Right. And a lot of things. And again, I know I'm not the only one that went through it. >> Right. But, because I'm not the only one and a lot of people go through it, it doesn't mean it's right. Right. >> Don't let abuse happen to you because it happens to a lot of people. Right. So, um so, there was nobody to talk to. That's what it is. Even in even in school. No, even authority in school, for example, for the menahel, I remember I was sitting there one day in the office and like they were contemplating what to do the punishment to do and they were speaking in code. Mhm. Yeah, like okay, they they wanted to say a belt, right? Passix. So, they said, "Okay, I'm going to bring a pass." And I was like, "Passport? I don't know what you're talking about." What are you talking about? And I was sitting like for a few minutes and listening to two adults how they going to punish you and the fear I had it's it's ridiculous. It's unbelievable. >> And I'm I'm here to say this is not normal that kids should go through that. This is not what the Yiddishkeit is. This is not what Chassidus is and I hate that part that people say "So, came to this is the way everyone went through it." No, do not don't take it because everyone went through it. If I'm going to kill a million people, just die along with it because No, it doesn't belong. Fix it. >> has to stop, man. Now, after that you went to Yeshivas. Um I was in Satmar until I I 14, 15, but at that part I couldn't take it anymore because my mother cheated also. That's Once I I said it once you go through one abuse as a child, every your world shatters. Me to say, a child I believe a child can go through abuse and heal it if they have the right support, if they have the safety of the parents. >> Right. If you If you grab early enough, >> Yeah. you can fix it. 100% with zero effect on life. I honestly believe that. >> Wow. But since I didn't have that even, so obviously right away I started building walls and protectors, right? And You You You reacted in a certain way. Your behavior was That's what we were talking before about not judging. These These rosh yeshivas or maggid shiurim or whatever they are, they have no idea what you went through. And you kept it quietly because why would you say it? You didn't want to become bullied. Can imagine what was going on in your head. And in the meantime you're acting a certain way and and and everybody goes, "What's wrong with this child? Let me You know, let me knock it out of him." The sad part is that the right person would be able to see. A professional. I would That's say a professional. If somebody is, you know, is a little bit more aware of attuned Yeah. >> attuned to what's how a child's behavior Exactly. Would be able to say right of right right away of me the way I act, the way like I I I I don't There could be a crowd, let's say, with kids talking. I don't go to it and like I used to and I stopped and I'm not like You have to pick up on these things. It's It's Unfortunately that back then they were not that professional, all right? I don't blame them. I understand. I mean, it's It's It happened, right? But at least now with that information, where people know what's going on, at least >> They're aware of this. Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] Admit to it and it's fine. Admission is fine. It's fine that you did a mistake. Just own up to a mistake right, fix that mistake by lying about it and admitting it, you just proved to me that all my beliefs is true about about that thing, you know, it's it's it's it's ridiculous, you know. And a person who who's never went through it would never understand that, but somebody that went through it or similar to that would just send me a message, "Oh, wow, you just made my day lighter." Yeah. Like you just spoke for me. And I know it's it's it's it's sad. And there are people who say that they don't like who would protect the abuser, who would protect those people because they don't understand it, they've never went through it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't blame them. Yeah. So it's good for them that they they they they they they they Nobody should know about it. Yeah. This should This should stay an horrific story. This is not something that people should understand and and and it should be normal, but um at least listen to the other person. At least don't deny. Believe that other person. That person went through enough. It doesn't It doesn't need for you to uh to to to just add more to what that person went through. Some people only need validation. That's all they need to >> Right. That's all they need. No advice. >> wouldn't be happy if the person goes to jail or something like that. I mean there's not going to It's not going to change your life of that person. Some people are more angry than others, and some people find, you know, uh Fighting comes from anger. And that doesn't heal you. But at least validate that person. If you don't understand, say, "You know what, I don't understand what you went through, but I'm sorry. I hear you." Validation goes a such a long way. >> A very long way. So later in life, how old were you? You became engaged. You you I got engaged when I was 20. I'm lucky enough. So So how that was through a shadchan, right? It was like a traditional marriage. And um how did that go? You had a easy time becoming engaged? >> I had a very easy time. Once I got engaged, it was very easy. Yeah. When you got married, um how did this whole thing affect your life? I mean, you're marrying a girl over here. Did you share in the beginning what was going on, or was she supportive right away? >> I didn't share in the beginning. Um I only shared I got married in November, only Pesach, April. I I opened up to her and shared um and everything. What was her reaction when she heard this uh right away? Shocked. Anger. Obviously. And disbelief that such a thing can happen. That can happen. And So, people who don't go to data abuse, and there are uh normal people, healthy people, >> Right. will be in disbelief and in shock. >> 100%. People who um don't care about it will be defensive. You can see it right away how people react when you tell your story. Right. They just simply don't care. They're really defensive. People who do care don't have a heart. >> Right. They just in disbelief and shock and horror. So, the Hashem gave you a gift that you had a wife who has empathy, who had rachmanus, Big time. and saw this thing, and she was there to support you. You said, "You know what? We're going to go through this together." Um It wasn't like that because I just shared my story, but then I was very shut down of emotion. Like, I didn't have no >> was no feeling. Like, I I was crying crying when I told it. Like, I broke down. It wasn't a cry from my eyes. It was more like an internal cry. >> Right. And it was in my father's house, surprisingly enough. It was Pesach, and I was like I I just for some reason I just I couldn't go out. I couldn't go out to like So, and she asked me what's wrong. So, I opened up to her. So, yeah, she did support me all the way. But, this is very important because um otherwise, let's say if you would be shut down, and she wouldn't know, "What wrong with my husband. He shut down and you keep this this shame inside and you're not sharing it. So, uh it was a very important move towards your moving on with your life. Yeah, but after when I shared that, nothing nothing changed internally for me besides I felt good that she knows what's going on because I still had that anger and I still it even in a certain sense it only made me more angry because now I brought her up. It was the first time and I didn't know how to deal with it. Right. I didn't want to listen to therapy because I got betrayed when I was younger by therapy. You didn't trust. I didn't trust. I didn't trust them. >> What do you mean you got betrayed in therapy? I went to uh I don't know if it was like a licensed therapist but through the high there whatever social thing. >> And I shared a little bit about my struggles then and I was like 13, 14 I think. I was there I felt comfortable, right, sharing but then I heard back of things that I discussed with him and I felt again another betrayal. So, I even closed down way more. So. So, for me that in a certain sense I looked at it that was therapy. So, I got betrayed. I didn't want to listen to it. And then so I never I don't need therapy. I'm good. I'm going to figure out on my own. I've been hurt enough. I didn't even want to speak about it. I've never want to like I I'm not going to bring this up and I never I don't want to face it. It's too much of pain to face. I just let me move it. That's what I always told myself. Let me just move on from it. Move on. But I've come to realize you cannot. The more you suppress. Maybe maybe you can hide you can store it just for 2 years time. But it's going to mold. Yeah. It's going to get rotten and then it's going to stink and it's going to come out 100%. And then it's going to be harder to fix. So. >> And that is a lesson that people should learn. That um pushing it away and also doing drugs and alcohol and and doing all these things that take your mind away is a temporary fix. It's a temporary fix and you grow the mold way more inside of you. Yeah. Maybe on the outside you put a very good mask but it's what it's inside that matters. How do you feel about yourself? I mean So, by the end of the game, um you did go to therapy. And um it helped you a lot. I mean, talking to you now I mean, what you went through I mean, you can't even put yourself in your Nobody can even put themselves in your shoes. But you're calm, and you're running a business, and you're keeping a family together. It's It's It's something There's something about it. Um What kind of therapy did you do? Um you know, that helped you and and takes you where you are now. A lot of people ask me what type of therapy. I have no idea what type it is. I just know what it does to me Right. >> and why it helped me. Because a lot of things what I've realized is just for an example, nobody ever told me, "You are stupid." I was bullied >> Right. >> but nobody ever So, it was because I was bullied and because I was abused it was beliefs that I started building in my head. >> It must be that okay, I must be wrong and I must be all that type of things, right? Because what I went through. So, what therapy did with me >> did the psychodrama therapy? I did Yeah, it was psychodrama. So, explain a little bit what psychodrama is because I had somebody over here um who is a specialist in psychodrama. >> Oh, wow. And um she was she was putting me in the role of somebody else and I acted that person and then I answered back and sometimes she brings in a shaman to it also. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing stuff. So, can you explain a little bit your experience with psychodrama? >> and I can explain my experience with it. So, it's different, but for me how I viewed it um it's going into a place into play out a role that you feel really stuck in life. So, my first walk into real therapy was not in a one-on-one session with a therapist. It was an an intensive. It's like a 6-day retreat intensive. And we did psychodrama over there. What it is, it's you play it for an example, I was actually abused, right? So they actually played out. They took one person to act like as my abuser, one person to act as me. >> Wow. And to play out and exactly what happened. >> not involved in it. You're watching it. >> I'm watching it. >> Wow. And as I'm watching it, my mind goes straight away again. It's not just happens all of a sudden. It's you prepare for that. You know, you do a lot of mental work and a lot of to put your mind to really into it. When I saw that, I wasn't I didn't see it them. I saw it happen again. And it brings up the anger and it brings up the pain. It really reliving and seeing what happened to you. And to and start releasing everything of you. So I had a fairly straight. I was on the floor kicking and and then I stood up and I started crying and I was crying for about I don't know how long I was crying for. But pretty long to cry of what happened and it's of the sadness of that little boy, what he went through and nobody was able to tell You were like in a helicopter watching your whole life happening in front of you. Now, this drama that's happening over there in front of you, this is what you told them before the story and they're just playing it out, correct? >> That amazing stuff. It is and that's people wouldn't understand the work and the things that it does to you until you actually do it. Mhm. It's it's beyond what it can do to you. Wow. Now, what would you tell other survivors? If someone is listening to this and suffering in silence, what would you say to a teenager who is carrying the secrets inside? What should he do now? That the shame is only within you. It's not from others. I I because I had it but so shameful to speak, even open up about it, besides my wife. Nobody knew for until about a year and a half ago, a year ago. Nobody knew about it. I mean, people knew what happened, but I didn't share it. Nobody knew what but I went through because I thought it's going to be so shameful. They're going to pity me. They're going to look down on me. Come to realize it's just the opposite. It's just the opposite. I mean, I see the feedback that I've gotten. I see what it brought for me. And it can do to you the same thing. Just don't be afraid anymore. Right. It is not shameful to share. Shameless people do shameful things to you. Absolutely. And what message do you have to people who are um family or just regular people um not to be in denial and just like you said before, validate and support if you hear a survivor sharing or if you know of something, what can they do to help? Just show support. Validation. Why? It's because I believe a big part of our community, and it comes from a healthy place, and maybe I'm wrong of saying it. We love to help people. Yeah. But we are the biggest enablers, too. What does that mean? Let's say, if somebody if I would open up to someone and it would be not the right person, right? And he would want to help me. They would start giving me advice and advice and advice and advice, and this is not what I want. No, I want to challenge my own brain. I want to come out of it on my own. Right. Cuz I want to know I was building myself. But by just giving me advice, you enable me to still victimize myself. >> Right. So, I do believe we we are community that we want to help people, but a lot of times we don't realize that we are enabling people. So just give I think for this is for me. I can't speak of anyone. This is for me. Just give the right support. Just validation is goes a long way that you know what? I understand you. You need to say I understand where you coming from and I understand why you are who you are and how the way you do things. Everyone goes through life. Everyone has a baggage of things. Right? I also have mine. But I decided to not carry mine on in a backpack. To take it, look into it, store it, and put it on the top shelf. And that's it. Yeah. It is amazing amazing stuff. So now what I want to do is um like I said before I see you sitting over here and um growing, being accomplished, being a good person, trying to be a good person, trying to bring the awareness. And it's not just uh awareness that is a polished beautiful you get no covet out of this. This is something that uh you're doing for Clowny Sorrell. Literally you're doing something that you're putting your neck out there for Clowny Sorrell. But I want to get into the positive part of showing that you're accomplished. You're a person who has a business. You're a fitness uh you're a fitness um trainer. Uh you have a business called Dee Fitness. Right? That's what it's called. Dee Ee Fitness. Where does the name Dee Ee come from? A lot of people um think it's because of my last name Dzenge. It is not. Dee is for the Yiddish word "you". You? Like like >> Yes. I love to treat people the way they deserve to be treated because I have never gotten that in my life. At least [clears throat] you know what? Let me give it from a pure place of me cuz I have it and I can give it. So Dee it's all about you. It's all about Dee. It's your experience. You matter to me. I love it. I love it. It's it's the you and you're possible and you're the one who can do it. You know, you is a very indeed Yiddish for you. It's very beautiful. Now, you have a few locations. I have [clears throat] two locations in Monsey. Two locations in Monsey, D Fitness and you also you have a personal It's a gym with personal trainers. That's what it is or it's a regular gym where people It's not a regular gym. >> It's You have to book appointments. We are going to roll up membership soon. It's going to be a very exclusive. So, like it's your private time. You Now, you have men and women? Yes, we have male trainers, female trainers, classes for women, classes for men. Is it expensive? Is it an expensive proposition to have a trainer? Because people think, you know, a personal trainer, I can't afford it. Everyone can afford what they want to afford. Right. I mean If if if your health and your is is priority number one. >> Exactly. Then you'll be able to afford it. You're saying that a $12 cup of coffee they can afford. So, they can afford that. So, let me ask you, when during your period of time, when did you find that fitness is your passion? >> [sighs] >> Um I was in a Yeshiva. Mhm. And I was at a time where I was I couldn't be myself. Like I I I mean to say when I couldn't be myself, I wasn't myself but I got bullied for it. And one of my friends and I'm forever grateful for him. He's going to watch it. Yeah, I'm speaking to you. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Um he I don't know why he asked me. I have I have no idea. I would love to know. I'm going to ask him about why he picked me. Mhm. Um but let's come work out. He has a gym. His grandfather was a military veteran in Russia. Like he fought in the World War II. He knew about exercise. And he showed him how to do the push-ups. He said, "You know what? Let me bring my friend." So, we had some weights and we started doing exercise. For some reason when I walked into that place and I started doing I I was I felt safety. That's That's the feeling that I felt. And I was being me. I was able It's not that I was being me and I like I started opening myself up to him. It's just for me in my own space I felt safe and I felt good. Like his mom, she was so nice. Like she is so nice. She came and made sure that we have water to drink. Like okay, warm water is better after work. She cared and like I've never had that in my life. Like it felt so good. So it's That is what did to me. And I got so and I got the more I got into it the more I started feeling it. At that point it it wasn't necessarily about health or fitness. It was more of just an escape. But that escape felt it it's it felt me it felt it felt safety. I started going to the gym and I started doing exercise in the gym. Like first I did in my basement of my house but then somebody threw out my equipment. Yeah. [laughter] I saw it in the garbage can one day. So I just said okay, I'm not going to make a fuss out of it. So I went to I went to the gym. Someone told me about the gym. And I asked my friend, okay, let's let's go to Gold's Gym. So he started bringing friends over. And at that point I knew what to do already. And I loved talking to people in my own way in my safety space. Cuz I love human connection and I love communicating with people. >> Right. But it has to feel safe for me to do it. Now I've learned how to do it easily. But back then I just I So I saw people coming in they did the exercises the wrong way and they didn't they didn't know how what to do and how to do it. And they're not going to go to a Gold's Gym trainer and ask questions. So at least I went up to them like okay, do it this way, do it that way and it worked. They liked it. And they started doing it like you know what? I feel so safe by doing that. I feel so good by doing this. I'm going to go I'm going to get into it. And I I that back then I couldn't get anything done. Like if I would start a project, I couldn't get it done. So I challenged myself and I told everyone I'm going to be a personal trainer and I'm going to open a gym to pressure on my to put pressure on myself I'm going to actually have to do it. Cuz I actually said I'm going to do it. So I started doing it more often more and more and more. And once I got married obviously I had to get a job. So I got a job in construction but I hated that job and then I left and I started advertising that I do fitness. So it's slowly it built up from there. Wow. And now you're booking people left and right people are really interested in their health. Yeah. Yeah, because this is such a huge problem for people who suffer from this, you know, to to get from A to B, you know, everyone knows it's important. Everybody wants to walk. Everybody wants to make exercise for health reasons. We're going to go out there and you're also doing nutrition, right? We do nutrition we have a nutritionist on our team that would meal planning and all kind of stuff. Besides that we have the trainers we give nutrition advice how to eat and what not to eat. Most people when they come to me a lot of people did it's not necessarily I look about exercise or overall health. It's not about weight loss or being fit or being in shape. >> health. It's overall health. How do you feel in the morning? How do you feel at night? To be able to control yourself like now the way I do with my clients I do it more like in therapy way. Yeah. Like it's not like I have open conversations with them and I I do it like that. >> it's emotional things that need to get out and so what happens in with you the plus that they have with you is that self-care becomes it becomes mind body soul. It's nutrition. It's the neshama. Uh-huh. And it's the body. And and people don't realize that it changes people's moods. It it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it we need to do it. Nobody will argue with you that fitness is wrong. It's important but somehow there is a blockage over there. We love to eat khazarai. We love garbage and Shabbos. We eat a five six course meal in a span of an hour and a half. So I tell you exercise, right? When you're going to the goyisha velt. >> Yeah. Uh big part is more about building muscle, having a body shape, you know, beach body. In our community it's not that big, right? It's more about actual health. So when it comes to exercise it's about facing yourself, right? People don't like to do that. They don't like to face themselves. They like to still in You most people do medicate themselves with food. Food is the biggest I I do believe that food is the biggest addiction out there. Yeah. And it's comfort food, you know. Yeah. Sugar and uh What is the worst food for a person would you say? The two worst food for a person to cut out right now if he wants to just take step number one. Sugar and flour. That's Yeah. no brainer. White bread. Yeah. Sugar sugar and flour, yeah. Unbelievable stuff. Now, do you go to people's houses or to businesses or we have to come to you? We do yeah. We go to businesses. A lot of uh You send down a trainers. Yeah, we send I think it's the best a lot of like businesses have a business meeting or whatever they want to do a lunch. >> Yeah. Nowadays there is healthy options but I think it's the best uh gift or reward to give employees. Yeah. If they go after a full day of work or the start of the day or the middle of the day is to really release energy because exercise not only that you're going to feel good it releases certain chemicals in your body, serotonin and dopamine. I have a client that actually his only reason he comes is not nothing because of weight loss. It's just to release those chemicals for him to feel good and to have a start of the day. That's the reason he comes. So, it's >> [snorts] >> businesses we do with employees and they see a big shift in in how the employees act to one another and it's it's amazing. It's amazing stuff. It's amazing stuff. The health and the nutrition, it is mind, body, and soul. Um let me ask you one final question. Is there a person in your life uh who made a real difference, a person who is your role model? That made a big difference and in your life whatever you went through and that person changed something. If there's a person who says you're you're like you're ever grateful for. I have a few. But, I would say my wife. Wow. Um my two close friends. I can uh I can always like even like it was years ago. You didn't even know my story, but I wasn't feeling well. It was 3:00 in the morning and I woke him up and I said, "I need Diet Coke now. Like I'm not feeling well. I don't know why it was Diet Coke, but he lived across town. Jumped in the car and brought you Diet Coke. Yes. Wow. So, it's I'm forever grateful. Somebody that's a role model gives me a lot of inspiration. It's uh it's maybe some people heard of him. I always watch his show is Dr. John Delony. You could have heard of him or not. But, he has also a podcast on mental health. >> Mhm. Where people call in with issues and it's >> Right. It's so funny to see. Once you start listening to those type of issues and mental health, it's it's across the board. Of course. And see it going for like human brain is the human brain regardless of religion or not. It's mental health is everywhere. And it's the way to deal with it. You have to be right and to see how people call him with the same, you know, Yeah. type of stuff. That gives me a lot of inspiration. Wow. Now, as far as um your relationship with the Rebbe Nachman right now, you found the Rebbe Nachman again on your own. Did you connect? Are you grateful? I feel it. There are so many things that uh There's a lot of positive things in your life, also. Mhm. Are you What is your relationship with Hashem right now? Very connecting, I would say. It is um it's like a father, like a son to a father, you know. Unbelievable. Yes, I have questions. Yes, sometimes I can, you know, be hateful, but not everything I have to understand. Right. But I know he means only good for me because I see my life now. Right. So, that's my connection with him. Um would I want to be at that level of His Holiness the uh Hasidic I would I would be able to get to that level. I would be able to get to that level. Right. Um because betrayal when it hits you so hard, it's very hard to recover from that. Right. But I'm not in pain anymore, but it's hard to recover to step into that role again. It's like it's fine, you know. But you're trying to tap into the neshama to the chelek Elokai mimaal. Me, tell you I'm a Nachman Hasid. I'm I'm a Hasid at heart. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course. I can't get away from that, but I'm talking about the outside look. For me, it's more of what's the inside. I don't care about the outside, you know. Very inspiring, very inspiring. Your story um surely broke our hearts. Um but we have to remember that healing is possible. You're here with a message that there is light by the end of the tunnel. You can crawl out of this. >> Mhm. And I'll tell you one of the close family, I did another podcast where I shared also my story, and they reached out to me. They were very afraid of what's going to be, you know, they're going to feel very judged and ashamed. I'm like, "If you judge people, you want to feel that you people judge you. But if you look at yourself and stop judging yourself, you're not going to feel it from others. Go to therapy, it's okay. And if people don't understand you, and if people still judge you, those people are not for you. Don't be around those people. I love it. Very simple. Do and if if you are someone that has been abused, be it sexually, verbally, manipulative abuse, narcissist, you do need therapy, okay? Meaning to say, not everyone needs therapy with a licensed or professional therapist, right? But you do need help, that's what you you do need because Talk it out. Work it out. Get it out of your system. There's something about it. You can't deny it. For sure. There's something about it. It says in Parshas Yitro, I don't know that he he had an issue and he went to his brother to speak to his brother and he felt lighter about it, right? >> Yeah. So, Yeah. Yeah. Speak about it. You You taught us that strength isn't just found in muscles. Strength comes from within. It's It's the courage. It's the courage to say the emes. It's the courage to say the truth. Be Be authentic, that's all. And also, one more thing, it's like somebody had reached out to me the other day that he wants to reach out to a family member of mine and he doesn't know how. I'm like, "I used I used to be the victim, right? And a lot of people are doing that in our community. Like, they start the title to reach out, "Hey, how are you? How are you doing?" I, at least, could feel pityness that you pity me. I didn't connect to it. I ran away from it. People who are a victim, who go through abuse, they can feel it, too. I do honestly believe that because I felt it and I don't believe I'm one in a million or trillion, you know? If I feel it, people also feel it. Just be authentic. It's all you have to be. People connect to your real self. Be your real self. There's no shame with it. You are ashamed of yourself. Nobody is going to shame you. That's what I realized. 100%. The bonus should help you. It should give you should give you peace of mind. It should give you and us. And everything your heart desires. And I thank you for coming in today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.