Gedalia Guttentag — Rav Simcha Kook

[music] Welcome to Inside Art Scroll, where the books that we read and the people that write them come to life. It's a distinct pleasure to welcome for the very first time to Arts Scroll Studios, Gdalia Gutag. Shalom. Oh, >> it's wonderful having you here and Matav and congratulations on your very first book with arts grow >> or a tool >> at all that's true as well um the book of Sima Cook a magnificent book really a masterpiece super inspiring very informative required reading um and how does it feel to put out your very first book >> you know I'm a writer but this is a different level to have uh you know to have got to the stage bar >> should we tell the people that watch our relationship. What do you think? >> I mean, yeah, it's maybe. >> So, Gdalaga and I are first cousins >> in-law >> in-law. That means he's married to my first cousin. To me, that's like a first cousin. And it's super exciting to have a first cousin in Arts Girl Studios. But I don't know if you know this, you are not my first first cousin who has sat in Arts Girl Studios. As a matter of fact, I've interviewed somebody else who is also my first cousin through marriage. And if you're able to tell us who my first cousin is, you could win a brand new copy of Ripom Cook, we'll have a little raffle. Whoever enters and gets the right answer could win this really beautiful mass masterpiece of a book. All you got to do is email inside artsgirlartsgirl.com. That's inside artsgirlartsgirl.com. Some point we will tally up all the raffles. We'll draw one person out. And if you know who my first cousin is that I interviewed, you could win a brand new book. Okay, that was a pause for station. >> That was the That was the golden ticket. >> That's the golden ticket. Okay, Gdalia, I want to ask you a question. So, first of all, how do you how do you come to writing? Um, what's your background? You have a great British accent. You live in Israel. Um, when did you start writing? And share with us a little bit more about your writing career. So uh my writing career was relatively late in life. I say that with all the gravitas of someone approaching middle age. um uh eight or nine years at Mishbahha magazine where I'm one of the editors and uh you know certain a certain stage you the writing bug which exists in kind of oped form and and and and feature form you know what we do in magazines is the maximum I've ever written in one goes you know for features is 10,000 words but I always knew that somehow there's a lot of books inside you know the big struggle is for a writer uh I don't know how it is with other writers for myself you know for a writer the hardest thing to do is actually to write you know writers can do anything they'll go and interview they'll go and talk about it they'll talk around it but to sit down and write is not going to happen so the book you know books only work with for myself or you know projects of this length with a deadline and a cause and a very tight timetable and this is where this is where this particular book Okay. >> What was the first piece of writing that you wrote that got published? >> Do you remember? >> Look, my career begins not with writing. It begins with My Dog Spot. Okay. My dog's spot is a poem is a poem. I wouldn't know where to find it, but I won when I was about seven years old the poetry competition in my elementary school, my primary school. So that is my now to be fair I've never yet there's a probably a reason I've not got into poetry and that's because that's because that's my dog spot is as far as it went. Um so so but communication words you know I suppose it's no no surprise that the first thing that I published hard to remember lost in the midst of time but there was many many years when I didn't write at all which >> you learned >> I learned I was in I was in I was in gates then Mir and I was in Kira for many years in Tel a Viv um and it was actually there that I got back into writing because I was working for Ryakov um it's got a big care of organization people don't know but as along along with his huge you know his cabali yeshiva and his huge uh yeshiva's kurim he's got a care organization and um I did some writing for you know for them and that was when the bug started to you know that that that dormant feeling you know of restlessness that a writer has because there's words welling up inside and you can't get them out on paper it started to come back and you know it was interesting some stage magazine which is actually the the source for why this book exists I didn't quite know the story myself, but when of Sunuk who I'm sure we're going to get into, >> of course, >> when he was nifa, um, a somebody contacted uh, Mishbahhan and said for someone write about this and it's one of these things that bounced around like who knew the chief rabbi over and it meant something to me and and and I said I'll take that and look these things are minim you know and and the and I knew of And I wrote for Islamim a piece which you know which people enjoyed and and that eventually led led a few years later to this uh to this book. So there's a you know and it only was only at the end of the book that I uh writing the book that I realized who'd forwarded it to art scroll or why it got to art scroll not sorry forwarded it to Mishbaka and why it got to mishbaka that was because the publisher of Mishbaka was in his yeshiva and I didn't know that when I was writing the book I found that out right at the end runs the world runs the world this book was meant to be written here we are >> so let's let's dive right in take us onto this book um there's so many There's so many people to write biographies who approached you like how do how do you did you all of a sudden decide this is a wonderful person I want to know more did someone ask you to write a book and then when they did I know that you've been offered more than one time to write a biography what spoke to you so deeply that you invested the last half an year year and a half into life >> so the mechanics of this was I was approached by um uh you know Cook's uh family and and they they wanted to preserve his his memory he was and to tell his story really and the story spoke to me because he was I mean the title over here is a beacon of unity. He was an absolutely unique individual um in in in his ability to unite to talk to all of Clal Israel. I just give you one in in in my in my mind that goes with one sentence that someone said to me. Um this is a man who was a as a boy who drove around and um he was an iconic figure across Israel he was Ravkuk. Now you have to understand in Israel the resonance of the name Cook you know if whatever you're feeling here in America this is this is royalty and he was Rav Cook he was a great nephew of the famed RV cook um and and his father Rafal Cook was the was a the closest helmid to his uncle right to to to Rkook spent 10 years last 10 years he was producers for him an a legendary an unbelievable figure in his own Rafal Cook and um Rasimuk was this uh was this unifying figure. He was the only person who could bring around the table everyone in Israel. A total consensus figure. He was he and just this person who was drove him around as a teenager then eventually became a local politician in where where Cook was was chief rabbi. And he said to me once I took him around one l day listen to this a schedule I drove him around in the morning we we drove to some secular place I remember the whitesman instituti spoke you know it's a big whatever it was some secular in the afternoon dati like a banakiva school okay and in the evening I drove him to give a shir in panovich now now I mean that encapsulates the story because this was one person who was who was royalty everywhere he groups that wouldn't talk to each other, who never crossed paths, he was able [clears throat] to talk to them and do so in a way without compromising. People understood Raf Cook was was a was a big person, a big Torah figure. He didn't change at all wherever he went, but he was consensus figure. And I often think about it. It was like this, you know, Khazal say about Esther, Esa Malco, you know, every country, all the Armenians said she's ours and the Babylonians said she's ours and everyone wanted everyone claimed as theirs. The litfac right and the data or the benef he's of but it wasn't. But you have to know it wasn't just the name because because and this is the other other thing why he was an iconic figure and such a unique figure because he wasn't just trading on his name right he was he was a person who whose activity was unrivaled and I'll give you an example he founded and head and and built a very big uh classical yeshiva it was a city with a a yeshiva history right that goes back to that that went back a while but it had no yeshiva then and he built today that yeshiva is 6 700 big big institutions big yeah yeah >> and at the same time he was the same person who was responsible for the um for the existence and funding of an organization called which buys up Jew places Jews in the Muslim quarter of the old city and at the same he was the same person okay who was considered one of the spiritual leaders of Gushkatif preex pre-evacuation He had there that were his right. So he was the he was the one person where do you ever find where have we found anyone for decades in fact is really um that person lived three and a half years ago you know he was there a consensus figure and as you say it was the alvis he genuinely genuinely loved each Jew and that was so genuine so powerful that he was accepted everywhere and his leadership was unquestionably accepted from you know prime minister level down to the guy on the street corner who I met, you know, not the prime minister but the guy on the street corner. It it really was, as I said, and this is what clicked. I said, "We have to preserve this story because this man is not some some some figure, mythical figure of a distant past who managed in some prehistoric era to unite all the different kipotin, you know, all the different head coverings." No, no, no. This guy was here and everyone met him. He he he spent a lot of time in Staten Island and in you know down in uh in Baltimore and coming and he spoke when he came here to America I mean there in the book you see on the same trip he spoke at Apac he spoke at U and he spoke in the Auda now who does that was Ruk that wasuk was an autumn God an iconic figure who I think his that story needs to be told it's it's possible he did it so take us back to like his humble beginnings. I know it's fascinating to learn about you know the old in 1948 but like what takes a fellow like this who grew up in the mainstream yeshiva world went to mainstream yeshivists was close to the gdylum of that time and then he picks himself up and he ends up in which was not at that time at all a kari town. How did he get there? What what pushed him there? >> So what pushed him there was a tragedy. his older brother who was a genius who was a tremendous schlomuk died in a tragedy. Those who remember back in the in 1971 it was he and his wife and I think three children were in the car. the the family was you know um they were killed in a in a in a on Khaneka going crossing they got stuck on a the train a train hit them and he was this the older brother was at age 36 37 or something like that a young chief rabbi up and coming or sim himself no question he would have been the chief rabbi um and a a brilliant figure brilliant in the authentic old-fashioned sense of of what he was and um and in that same year uh Rasuma's father was Nifa. Rasuma's father was a very special person. I think we mentioned Fal Cook um who was a Talmid at the same time of two iconic legend legendary figures at the same time Briskarov and Romeo Cook same time and um and and and he was the chief of Tavaria for the last 25 chief of Tavaria. So within a few months they were nifed out of of each other they were nifed out and two family positions as it were came o open. Now was not at that point a rov he was in he was a man and a very and a very um gifted one at that and this explains a lot about who he was and what he did. He was he founded a yeshiva um in a yeshiva in in in Natania and for 10 years he led this and in that the course of that he became very close to the sons the sons closer um um who noticed the same thing who was very young he said this man is able to unify absolutely everyone so he so he in Italia which was a very secular city then He ran a he the sons reb said or closenabb as they called him um can you run for the city council and and and um and get everyone orthodox underneath you the nonorthodox the the everyone traditional and he did he ran his city hall and he I spoke to people there who were with him and he said what a kisham he made because of and this is one of the things that I learned you go into a book you know you're a kind of a I didn't know him right although others I know did and and um you go in you're kind of a blank slate which is an advantage of the as if you're going to a biographer you can go >> no bias you just no bias just tell me the story and you start noticing things and I went in and I would think well he's kind of one of these rabbitic political figures right very famous very tremendous charisma tremendous uh orator and I thought here here's the person and uh you know he's a strong political person and I discovered that's not the story of cook and this This is what again was so special. He was a sadic of an extraordinary kind. We have a just parenthesis sorry to go off on this a chapter in there called letters to Hashem. And this is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kitl that he wrote to Hashem. He had a little oracesh in his study. on a kadesh inside was and when he had a problem and this was multiple times a day he would write a note to Hashem stick it inside and D 10 minutes and I I sat there and genuinely moved moved to tears sat there his son had like whole collection of them like I just I flicking through his things what are these and I've got pictures of some of them there and there he had he was just a tantic he said he says Hashem please help me build yeshiva and you can see it's 30 years old whatever please help me with this problem the cash in the city please help in the city please help that the two who've been kidnapped right we don't know what they is but I suppose in the ' 90s by the age of the notes or something um should you know should be okay please help that the that they that those who want to destroy the take away the unity of your talk about the Oslo process should fail and then he has a note about and [music] and he was a sadic He had this tremendous relationship with Hashem that people didn't know about. That means everyone could see it was a holy person. And I think something communicates itself. That picture that had pan in there. >> Beautiful picture. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and and but but but I as a biographer you can't hide you can hide a lot of people a lot of things from a lot of people. You can fake a lot of things. What you can't fake is is that those those findings there and they were dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens. And this was a normal thing. And he would bring people actually to this there's a little orac in his room um because he had a lot of secular people who came to him for advice or whatever or couples before they got married and he would bring them to them and he'd say and his room is sore he had hundreds of swarm they all arranged in a very unusual way they weren't arranged by topic they arranged by era so it started that his library contained a little safety then after had nim and then afterwards everything and he went through Everything was arranged by era. Can you imagine? You ever seen a study like this? Brilliant. And then he would invite people in and he would say, "Look, you know what this teaching, imagine teaching a class like this." He would say, "Let's not talk about this. Let's talk about what what the background to this. Do you know what this is?" And he went through mohina this is this and this is this. And this is when they started talking about um um the problems of you know and he'd go through the chubus and he'd go through 100 till the day he said okay now we can talk about the Jewish theorist's attitude to marriage you understand what we're talking about he would then leave the couple at the end he would say okay now you've heard I've learned something um openesh and he'd go out and leave them there inspiring >> the man was a powerhouse he personally was responsible for you know dozens and dozens Dozens and dozens of people absolutely directly became Balichua through him. Neighbors if you if you moved in in the area you were finished basically. In fact, I spoke to one of the person says his neighbor one of the people who became Balshua who through through him in his later years a guy was about 28 29 years and he was a young teen when he moved in and he tried he said I knew I'm going to get caught by the rav. So he said for months I refused to look at him. I met him in the corridor. I put my head down and ran past him. Eventually [clears throat] got me. He said, "We had another neighbor who didn't want to be caught. He moved away." >> Unbelievable. >> Yeah. >> And it came probably from his office just was exuding. You see such a person, what are you supposed to do? >> Yeah. Yeah. He was that that's that's what it was. There was no nothing judgmental, nothing. He loved he loved Jews with an Arab, which is unbelievable. That's Yeah. Can you talk just for a minute about what he did in his town because that's fascinating how he transformed the town of So that is that is the story here because in essence I mean you got to ask yourself so it's a chief chief rabbi science grandios but it's a it's it's an Israeli city with important university but he was much more and this is and what he did in Rava was show what can be done what what he was able to do elsewhere. He took a city that was um it's a university town. It's it can it's got you know traditional parts to it but it's it's it's a city of of it's called the city of science and they pride themselves in this. It's not because not just the it's it's a lot of it's not just the university there's other re research institutes. So it's that type of liberal place you'd expect. He took a city that was already open for traffic and shabas etc. the status quo which is the well-known Israeli thing saying whatever existed pre pre-state we're going to continue the status quo was was secular open on Shabas and whilst the whole country was getting more secular meaning everything opening up more and more on Shabas as we see this the trend it's it's a big battle for Shabas he convinced the secular heads of the city the city fathers right literally to close his city on Shabas that's what it was able to do. I'll tell you something. I asked the mayor who was responsible for it, meaning it was a long 20, 30 year thing, 30-year campaign. How did he do that? He was a secular guy. This mayor's son is a member of Israel's one of Israel's most secular parties, Israel Betenu. This guy I talked to is not a religious guy remotely. It's not like, wow, he's caught up. No. I as I said to him, what did what did Rav Cook say to you to persuade you to vote to close the city down on Shabas? And he said something I thought I thought I thought I was just amazed. He said he said we're all veiners. We're all from that's what the Raph said. I said I said what? Like I asked [clears throat] him to repeat did I hear that correctly? He said, "Yeah, this this man his name Shuki for his great-grandfather was Yeshua For who in 1890 bought the land was a vea was indeed founded by now I didn't realize I thought was just playing up the cook connection of cookies learned in in but it was what was discovered was that no the cooks went all the way back they were a cook a no cook the names kept reappearing right throughout history the same names be used 200 years ago was a founding student of inhous so whenuk said I'm a he meant it right but I couldn't believe it this guy says we closed it down because he was a so I said like that's when I realized we were dealing with salmon it wasn't just a way of saying something if you and I would get up and say well I think we should close down teliv because we all come from me I don't think it worked with anyone else there was had a no and a question and ability to to to to to speak but but it was him. He had that that that a hashem it it it just communicated itself. He was he was a he was an incredible force in that and this this mayor told me another thing just one of these things I don't think it made it into the book but it just sticks in my mind as one of these great moments which you realize you're dealing with someone exceptional. Um because I said to the beginning of the conversation to this mayor I said to him you know tell me about cook was very suspicious. So you know what does the guy want? He said what do you want me to say? I say say exactly just tell me the truth. He said I said how what was your relationship? He said well it was very correct. I was the mayor. He was the chief rabbi. We had a working relationship. But he kept thinking about it because obviously because he kept talking and minute later he pops up and he says no no no actually I was very friendly with the Rav but he wasn't yet done. He kept thinking about it because he was continuing of the conversation and he suddenly burst out. He said, "No, actually I want to say that I loved the Rav that was he had that whatever he had that that it was the upon is it just people felt it. That was the secret." >> And I'm assuming that that's that's the the message that you pulled out of this book that if you have the right aasel, you could get through to anyone. >> Yeah, it's the message that's subliminal. It's it's it's not I didn't know. I think it's just such an obvious thing. Again in the subtitle be beacon of unity he was the unity came from there because he wasn't like well combine let's all be friends together he was in a sense one of the greatest canoe that you can imagine because there is no cause that he didn't fight when it came to holy what he considered holy shabas he how did he shut down the city on shabas he had protest but not far from violent protests he was protest which there was no other protest in the country before or since which succeeded in getting traditional people out there, right? This was not religious. He had Cababal Shabas protests and there was no protest. It was a til rally in the purest, most joyous sense. And and there was at some stage there was um uh his opponents. He had opponents. Remember this a secular city. Merits is Israel's far-left political party. They had the youth of merits and they campaign and they and they one event they said we're going to protest against him. And so the police came etc. this is cababala shabas and these were there was nothing except kabal shabas in the street that's all it was and used to say a very important thing we're not protesting against something we're protesting for that's what he was for it he was for and people remember that from that anyway so this event he had this um counterprotest who turned up 10 10 teenagers what did go and this was absolutely genuine he went over to them and he said, "Can I make Kdish for you?" You know, "Have you heard Kdish?" Well, they hadn't heard Kdish and they probably wouldn't have heard Kdish. And they were thrown like, "Who's what is his agenda?" He says, "No, no, no. I want to make Kdish." He went out to his house and he came down and he came to make Kdish for them. And then he said, "Are you going to eat, you know, can I invite you for a meal?" And there was suspicion. They came up. They came up for a meal. And they and and some of these kids, one or two of them became religious afterwards because they just were were caught were were were were you know this this this great light drawn drawn to this >> the great light. You see he was he showed and this is the important thing again. He showed that there's a possibility to unify people and that Israel is a tremendously riven place. He showed doesn't have to be that way. They can be unified around Jewish tradition, right? But it's got to be done with absolute it's got to be genuine. And you know, I quote in the quote in there something so powerful that Rashak said about him or to him or I think it said about him. Roshak believed in him and he and he sent him to the Knesset to you know on behalf of many of the religious kind of the issues of Israel's religious character and Rash said about him he says when other people religious people talk about Shabas everyone understands they're really talking about money right they just want more money so we'll talk about Shabas but it's a way of getting a bigger budget he says when Cook talks about Shabas he means shabas that's amazing it's a Beautiful line. Gdai. I feel like we're just literally touching the tip of the iceberg. >> We literally are. >> Yes. I highly encourage you to go out and buy this book and carve out some time to understand what genuine ais is about. To understand the history of the state of Israel, the country, the people, and most importantly to understand where a person can get to when they have the most genuine and open giving personality possible. That's a god. That's a god. >> Definitely. Definitely. Peter, I can't wait to see, by the way, who the next biography is going to be of. >> Thank you so much for coming. >> Thank you very much. >> My pleasure. [music]