From surviving abuse to preventing it—her story could save a child’s life- Yitty Denciger

my grandfather, my mother's father, he abused me when I was around seven or eight years old. And I remember like my legs wanted to run, but I was like frozen. I think shame is one of the the biggest parts that keep victims silent. Well, you know, I grew up >> Yeah. >> in aided home. Three years ago, he was arrested and then we had trial. The whole process is revictimizing. It's it's traumatizing. It's abusive. No, no, no. What's underneath is protection. Levels of protection that are unimaginable for abusing. >> You're talking about professionals. >> Yes. Licensed professional >> rabbas and professionals. >> Yeah. My goal is is education as a means of prevention. >> Right. What would you say to women survivors um who blame themselves? Okay, this episode uh is about power. It is about um taking back control. It is about abuse. It is about manipulation. It is about courage. And it's about survival and justice. Uh my guest today is Yiti Adler Daniger. Um all the way from Texas. Beautiful. Yeti is a survivor of sexual abuse. Um what she is doing today is uh she is advocating and bringing awareness and helping other people heal. Um she's the host of a podcast called Silent No More and she's working on books to educate kids about this subject which is very very important. Today uh we will discuss manipulation. You will discuss grooming how uh grooming controls a victim. Yeti welcome to the struggle. >> Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Before we get into the nittygritty of uh your story, um what type of a child were you before this uh trauma began? >> Before this trauma began? That's a good question. Well, you know, I grew up >> Yeah. >> in aidish home. We I have eight siblings, so very close in age. Um, so it was always like I was just one of many, you know. >> Yeah. >> Um, my parents tried their best, but it was it was pretty chaotic. >> Um, it was also fun, you know, chaos could be fun, especially with so many sisters. But, um, I was always, always a truth teller, always. And I think my parents struggled with that. I was the only one that was um not not willing to bend to like accommodate the things that didn't weren't true, that weren't honest, that weren't real, >> right? And and you felt like alone. You felt like nobody understands you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You felt you have something to say. You're standing up for the truth and you're not willing to go ahead with the image, >> right? with the with >> Exactly. I was always so confused about like why does everyone know that this is happening and no one's doing anything and why do people pretend to be away and they're not like that? Like I just didn't understand. I was like when I grow up I'm not going to do that. >> Right. It was contradicting. This is who you are. This is what your fabric is. >> Yes. >> And let me ask you, would you share the story of uh the abuse that was going on? tell us a little bit of uh what's behind Yi. >> Yeah. So, my grandfather, my mother's father, um I just want to be clear about whose father because my father's father was a very special man. My mother's father um he probably had a very difficult childhood. I don't know. >> Correct. Um but what resulted is an adult that abused women and children. Um me personally, he abused me when I was around seven or eight years old. He you know my my my parents were very careful cuz they knew um and they always told us like don't be alone in a room with him. Yeah. uh don't hug him or kiss him which was you know good but not enough you know it's a child cannot control an adult >> and a child doesn't understand really what it means also what's what's >> right it was confusing >> it was one grandfather we hugged and kissed and when we didn't and you know in that age that we grew up that was already progressive you know like these days it's not it's not you So, I I hope people that know that they have a family member like that, they don't let them around their kids at all. That's probably ideal. No, it is ideal. Not probably. >> Um, and so we knew not to be alone with him, but I was walking on the street myself one day in Montreal and he pulled up in his car and he asked me if I want a ride. And it was weird because my aunt lives here and my grandparents lived here literally maybe a 1 and a half minute walk and I was going from my aunt to my grandparents and I was like I don't need a ride like I could just go myself but I didn't know how to say no. I grew up like many people in authoritarian household where you don't say no especially to adults. You listen it's >> right >> you know. Um, so I didn't know how to say no and I didn't and I remember like my legs wanted to run but I was like frozen. I couldn't go anywhere. Um, anyways, I went into the car. I don't know where he took me. Um, but he abused me. Um, and then when I I came back to my grandparents house with him, my mother was like, "Where were you? I told you never to be with him." And so right away I was like, "Okay, it's my fault." You know, maybe even before that, but that like solidified it and I'm like, I didn't tell anyone. >> You took the full blame because you were told as a kid not to you didn't even know what not to what to prevent. >> Yeah. >> But you took the blame. >> Yeah. >> For many years. I didn't tell anyone until I was 30. Yeah. I don't think I realized like what really happened. And like it's very confusing for a child, you know. Um so yeah, so that's when I I I told my husband first, you know. Um and then I I went to therapy. I mean, I was already in therapy, but I went to EMDR therapy. Um and then I made the police report in Canada and he was arrested a few years later. Um he he moved to Israel. Mhm. >> Um and so when he was in the airport coming back for Pesak, I think it was like 3 years ago, he was arrested and then we had trial 2 years later or a year later. I don't know the exact timeline, but yeah. >> What was the result? >> It's very uh hard for me to talk about. I know I'm smiling, but that I do that when I'm like >> nervous. Um the result was that there was not enough evidence. He had a very very good lawyer. Um, and his lawyer actually represented someone that was accused of murdering a girl like a few months before my grandfather's case. Like he's a top lawyer, >> right? >> Um, and he knew that it's not about the story. You know, my detective and prosecutor kept telling me they're like everyone in the room could believe that this happened and he could still walk away, >> right? >> It's because of law. Like there's legalities. Like if there's any doubt, if he's able to create any doubt in the mind of the judge, >> that's enough. >> It's enough. And there's so much about the legal system that's, you know, you on your podcast talking about it that >> the legal system is to protect them more than the victims. >> It's not to protect the victims. It's called the criminal justice system, >> right? It's it's justice for criminals. >> It's for you to prove that you're innocent. It's unbelievable. >> Yeah. I could talk about it for days, but like even just to start, the the accused gets to choose if they want trial by judge or by jury. >> Yeah. >> It's so much easier to convince one person than an entire jury who are not lawyers who don't know the law, you know. >> And did you feel revictimized? How did you feel um when you didn't get the result that you wanted? The whole process is revictimizing. It's It's traumatizing. It's abusive. I think it's abusive. >> Absolutely. >> The way they, you know, the defense attorney just I mean, an entire day of grilling. It's not questions. It's there's a tactic. It's manipulative. It's, you know, when I say I don't remember. What do you mean you don't remember? You don't remember going home to bed that night? No, I don't remember. So, how do you remember this happened that day? What do you mean? I just remember that's how memories work, you know, and then like going back and forth like it's so manipulative. There's tactics to it and they try to trip you up, put words in your mouth and I'm like I never said that, you know, but the second you you fall for one second, you miss a beat, you're screwed. >> Yeah. You're done. >> Yeah. >> And the saddest part is that um you didn't ask for this, >> right? >> You were an innocent kid and you're standing up for what's right. All of a sudden, you're entangled with some emotional uh manipulator and a system that is dragging you through the mud again and again. All for what? For standing up for something that you didn't ask for. >> Such a good point. Such a good point. And it's like it feels like it feels like I asked for this. Like it it's crazy. So on the first day of trial, so there's multiple hearings up until trial, you know, my grandfather comes in, I go on the stand and he's like, I can't hear. >> So obviously he has to hear. He has to hear me talk. >> Yeah. >> So they bring in a microphone, still can't hear. They bring him headphones, still can't hear. And between everything, it takes a long time. It's a court. You have to wait. It's a process. people come in and out and I love that you're shaking your head because it it was crazy and after like three times the judge is like I don't understand you were able to hear fine all the other hearings you know and defense attorney's like yeah but but now he doesn't or something I forgot the exact answer but everyone was like what are you doing it looks ridiculous but at the end we had to switch to a whole other courtroom and We didn't start until after lunch because there's a two-hour lunch break. But it was just for me it was like I'm a victim all over again. >> Yeah, >> it was terrible. >> It is it is next level pain. Next level pain. It's the pain the first pain and then there's the second pain of just dealing with this and putting this behind you closure. It's it's it's mindboggling what this is. So, let me ask you, when you think back um as a child, how old were you when you noticed that something is wrong? >> Very young. Very young. I was very confused. I was like, my parents knew, right? They warned us. Um and it looked like everyone else knew. And I know many other people knew. Actually, I don't want to like bash rabbis, but I think it's important to say when I was 30, I knew something h my my grandfather moved to Israel for a reason. Many abusers flee to Israel. >> They relocate. >> Exactly. Israel is a safe haven um for these types of people. I knew something happened. And my parents never told us but I heard through the grapevine something happened. My grandfather was a therapist, no license or anything. Um he was also a principal, a bar mitzvah teacher. He you know he put himself in a in a position he had a shul in his house. Um he put himself in a position of power and that's how he manipulated people especially women. Um and I knew something happened. There was a bastin. Something happened. There was bast something happened and they decided to move. So I called the of baston in Montreal and I said you know I want I want do you have documentation? I want to see like what happened. Um and he said I don't have anything. I gave everything to Mish Mishius in Israel. Um, I called him again and I said, "Listen, I I Mius didn't have anything." I asked I said, "Listen, I'm a survivor of his and I need more information." He said, "I don't have anything. I'm sorry. Can't talk to you." I called another rabbi. I explained to him straight from the get-go, I'm a survivor and I want more information. What happened? He said, I don't have anything. It was a long time ago. I don't think you should do anything public. Write him a letter. And I was like, write him a letter? I'm like, if I continue to wait, there will be more blood on my hands. And I'm not willing to do that. Like, I don't understand. And then I also called a therapist and a psychiatrist, Jewish therapist and psychiatrist that I knew had clients that were victims of my grandfather. When I called a therapist, he's like, "Wow, you're doing an amazing thing." Yes, I I I have what I wanted was to speak to victims. No, what happened? >> Yeah. >> He said, "Yeah, I have victims that I'm going to reach out to." He never got back to me. I sent him an email and he said, "I don't want to badmouth anyone." End of story. The psychiatrist that I called, a Jewish psychiatrist, to find out, um, I learned that she had a client that was raped by my grandfather. Um, and she did not report it to authorities. Neither did the therapist. And she was not either willing to give me any information. I felt like I was uncovering a dark web. People don't realize like we live on the surface here. I'm like, "Yeah, these things happen, you know." No, no, no. What's underneath is protection. Levels of protection that are unimaginable for abusing. >> You're talking about professionals. >> Yes. licensed professional >> rabbas and professional and >> the the the push back that you get. >> Um let me ask you as far as because you took some drastic steps the way you described the story. Um was there uh was there something from your family that you suffered like your what was the reaction of your family if you you took those steps? This is tremendous courage. Yeah. So, my parents um are incredible people. They have changed a lot over the past few years. They've done a lot of work. Um and I I don't see that often. I really don't. Um you know, when we grew up, they thought the wrong it was wrong. It was not kit of it was not you don't go to it's msira, >> right? Um and at the beginning one of my parents thought so too. Um but afterwards he he was arrested. They you know fully supported me. They came to trial. Yeah. It was so hard for them. I know it was hard for them. >> Heroic. It's amazing parents you have. >> Yeah. They they've they've done incredible work and but my mother's siblings, right? The abuser's children actually came to court to testify against me. M >> they stood on the stand and they basically said I was lying even though they know full well. Um you know there were other victims that came to watch the Yeah. >> Like they knew who they were. >> Um my grandfather knew who they were. Um and what's so interesting is my grandfather did not have to testify. That's also a thing that's my the the the victim's life is under microscope. Every single part of my social media was pulled up. Every little thing was >> You didn't even know what you're getting into. >> Nope. I had no idea. Microscope. My life was under a mic just to see if I ever lied or did anything fishy in a different occasion. Then maybe I'm lying now. Um but my grandfather who decided to testify, he didn't have to. but they brought up the conversations in based in cuz that was part of my evidence. Um, and he's like, "Yeah, I once, you know, had a client who she was very she was very abused by your husband and I, you know, I fell in love with her." He says this in front of the judge and that flew. >> It didn't make a difference in >> No, I was like for sure this is going to be like where there's smoke there's fire, you know? M this is going to be like this is the kind of person he is. No, because it has nothing to do with that. >> This is in the Canadian court. >> Yeah. >> Is New York any different? >> I don't think so. It's law. >> It's the law. Like it has to be this occasion that I'm talking about. Who cares if he says he raped someone else? >> Yeah, it is unbelievable. Um, how long was this going on? This was a couple of years. Yeah, I reported in 2020 and we didn't have trial until summer of 2024. I didn't get a verdict till se October 2024. >> And how long was the abuse going on >> for me? Only one time. >> Now, was there grooming involved? >> I think because he was in my family, there was already like he had such so much power. But yeah, I mean, he was funny. He was nice. He was like a nice grandfather. He got us gifts. Um he always made did riddles and jokes with us. Um but I think the grooming in my in my story is just the fact that he was in my family, >> right? >> You don't need much grooming, >> right? And usually what what what happens with these people is that they you're not the only one. I mean in the family could be that he could he could have >> Yeah. you know, abused his own kids or a bunch of other grandchildren. But not everybody can come out and say it. You know, the image is more important for them than the truth. You know, they're looking at a different picture. You know, they're looking at a different view of and this and that. >> So, this may be the reason that they came and they testified, you know, on his behalf. >> I think there's different levels, you No, I think there's others, but I there there's not everyone could say the truth and I understand that you don't have to share your story. You can just share it in therapy or to your close people. But denial is a whole other level. >> Yeah. Covering up, that's the worst. >> Coming to to stand on the witness than the someone who's speaking their truth. >> That is sometimes a bigger crime than the actual abuse. >> And that's what the rabbis, therapists, and psychiatrists all do. >> Yeah. That is sad stuff. This is not a safe place. >> The world is not a safe place. >> So as far as you becoming an advocate of stuff like that, I want to discuss grooming so people will understand >> how would these people operating. What is grooming and how does grooming work? So grooming, you know, they usually put themselves in a very trusted position. Like my grandfather was a principal, rabbi, therapist, uh bar mitzvah teacher, they usually put themselves in a trusted position that people do not question that if someone else will come and see something happen be like what? No, impossible. Ne could never be. Um and then you know they slowly it's not one day they come and abuse you. It's very slowly. They test the waters. They know who's vulnerable. They could smell it out. They see who's in a vulnerable position. >> Geniuses at it. >> Genius. Very criminal. Very very genius. Um and they see if if parents uh trust authority blindly, they're a good victim. Um and they do it slowly. Slowly they'll they'll touch a little. See if you feel uncomfortable. See if you say anything. If you don't say anything, they'll go further and further and further until you're so confused that you don't even know yourself what's happening. >> These are the worst predators. >> Now, while the abuse was going on, did you tell yourself something? Did you did it did you try to make sense of it or from the beginning you already thought that this is uh no good? >> I think I I just was confused. >> Confused. So, so children I'm asking because I want to know if children tell themselves >> uh they you know they they give themselves uh it's not so bad or he is not so bad didn't mean it that maybe I'm making this up. Maybe did I see what I saw? Did I feel what I felt? >> I think above anything that the the the biggest thing children do is blame themselves. >> Blame themselves. >> Yeah. And that makes internalized shame. It was my fault. Guilt. And it further keeps them from like sharing >> right. Do these children of who are getting abused have a desire to please them? You know they get into this stupid relationship that starts by grooming and then does it become into they become like I got to please this adult. >> Yeah >> or something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I think that part of prevention is allowing children to say no and to say what they want. Even if you're not going to end in the end do what the child wants to do, >> but let them say what they want. Let them have practice. >> They have to be strong enough to stand up for themselves. So basically is what you're saying is that um it's time to actually talk to these children, not in circles. >> Exactly. >> Explain the children what is going on, how adults operate. Is that healthy? Is that a healthy way to look at it? to to to explain the children at an early age that this is a sickness and this is people who are manipulators, predators who are uh preying on these children. And is it too early of an education? >> I think instead of focusing on that, I would focus on empowering them that they they what they want matters. What adults want are is not everything. It does not matter all the time. What they want matters. So you can't go into it blindly that if an adult tells you come here, go there uh you know it doesn't mean that this is to mo right. >> Exactly. How do you feel? Do you feel that that you want to do you want to do that? How do you feel? >> So but we don't teach this in schools and we don't teach this at home. It's we teach that if adult tells you you have to be uh respectful. You have to have so there is a balance over there very fine line where you have to find your own selfrespect and >> ve it's hard it's hard people find it very hard but I I think empowering children to know what they want and they feel is not is not I think you can still listen to your child what they feel and you can still hold your boundary you could still say I totally hear that you don't want to go to bed now and you want to play but Now it's time to go to bed, >> right? >> Let them at least say what they want, >> right? Is there ever a time that an abuse that a child or a victim tries to understand the abuser? Like to make sense like you said in the beginning and I heard this a million times. He probably had a bad childhood. You know, you already gave uh an answer uh a defense for him why he did it. Is that something that needs to be addressed? >> I didn't say it so much as defense. I personally I like to think of like I like I like to have compassion for everybody. Even if they're abusers and criminals, I still think they should be held accountable. I still think everyone should know. But something happened to make him like that, >> right? Hashem did not create this. >> I don't think so. >> Right. >> I don't think so. I think something terrible happened >> there either. I believe that Hashem creates resourceful healthy people in circumstances. Life uh is is they took the left turn instead of the right turn instead of helping themselves or they didn't have people in their life who could uh you know try to help them out and they became destroyers >> instead of creatives. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> So that's the reason why you said that now. >> Yeah. But trying to understand. I think most of the time abusers are someone the child loves. And so it's very hard to like it's not like this. It's confusing. It's like I love this person. I love the attention I'm getting. I don't want anything to happen to him. >> And you don't like what happens to you either. Right. >> So you're torn between these two. >> Exactly. >> But this is happening in a lot of abusive relationships as well. These manipulators are like uh in the meantime the they're loving the person loves them and in the meantime they're pulling back and they're playing these these games these predator games. It's it's it's it's crazy making. >> It's crazy making. Yeah. >> Because I would like to know what is going on since you uh deal with this and you speak to victims and stuff like that. I would like to uh understand I want to learn what is going on in an abuser's mind >> like the entitlement that they have that they feel that um you know the arrogance that is that that they deserve everything and everybody owes them and I owe you. What is going through these people's minds? What do you think? >> I have no idea. I lay awake thinking about that at night. I have no idea. And I I think it's fascinating. It's it's morbidly fascinating. I have no idea. >> And it's like sometimes it's scary. It's like, are we the same species? Are we both human? >> Yeah. >> That's scary. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. >> You can't put yourself in their shoes to understand how they operate. When they see someone on the street, what are they thinking? >> No, I've tried. >> This human mind is so complex. so complex >> there is just you you you I'm trying to study human behavior to I want to understand where this predatory uh behavior comes from this entitlement is next level entitlement and the arrogance what makes you think that you owe anything that moves anything it's it's unbelievable and you saw this with your abuser also the was their arrogance and entitlement throughout I'm talking about throughout the For sure. For sure. I mean, you have to be that kind of person, >> right? >> You know, >> it is unbelievable. Did ever pass your mind? This this part that um um I hate this. I hate this, but I'm hooked. >> No, not me in particular >> because you had a one time shot and you walked away. >> Yes. I think I think you had one benefit one um >> one thing that worked in your favor is that you your parents told you before you know it's not like you were innocent and this person dragged you through six seven years of this >> right >> you knew going in that something is not good you were there it was done >> but uh and you got out of it but the regular victim >> yes >> the regular victim who can go for six seven years 10 years >> even adults and I know you uh you collaborate with Nicole Meyer, right? >> I saw online that you're doing this and I saw a presentation that she gave was just here and I was there. I was there of course >> and um >> she was talking about as an adult. >> Yeah. >> You know talking about children an adult and it is an important point because you would think you should know better. You know you're an adult. No, these manipulators are so good and this is so uh important for people to understand because a child blame themselves. Okay. You know, you get older and you start trying to >> Yeah. >> undo that. But an adult >> Yeah. Yeah. >> An adult should should still be victimized. >> Yeah. >> It's It's crazy. >> It's very powerful the grasp that they have on their victims, you know. It's extremely powerful. I know many many victims that Yeah. many years, like you said, they're hooked, but they hate it. >> Yeah. >> Um and that carries on even if they get away from the abuse, they're still hooked to that >> the trauma bond. >> Yeah. They're still they're still they still seek it. They still that's how their brain was wired. It's very hard to get out of. Um but yeah, even teenagers, it's especially confusing when it goes on for many years and they're teenagers. They're like, I enjoyed it, you know, >> right? >> It's very confusing. >> It's very confusing. It's very confusing and it takes a lot of work to get out of it and overcome it. And people don't understand what's what that person is dealing with day in day out. >> That's why we have addicts and that's why we have suicide and that's why we have me extreme mental illness. That is unbelievable. But it must be spoken about. You must talk about it because the if an one person can be saved, one child, it's it was all worth it. >> Yeah. >> At least you know you know you have a mission in your life and you did something about it. >> Yeah. My goal is is education as a means of prevention. >> Right. Right. It's not about revenge. It's not about anger. It's about what can we do next >> if this is so bad. If you went through something like that, you don't want another soul to go through this. >> Yeah. And the fact is that it happens everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. Every single community. No. But I have done a lot of research on this actually in in school. I'm becoming a therapist. >> Um and most of the papers I choose to write are about this topic cuz it interests me. Um and I did a paper about you know does this happen more in insular communities or religious communities. The answer is yes. >> Yeah I heard about that. >> The answer is yes. There's a lot of factors to it but yeah the answer is yes. And so >> what what is the reason? I mean what is the reason behind? >> There's a blind trust in authority. >> Right. There's a lack of trust of outside. >> Correct. >> Right. There's um a few theories. Hold on. I have to think of what I came up with. Um, there's, you know, learned behavior, >> community, >> right? I think there's a lack of education. I think a lot of it is a lack of education. Boys learn that they're not allowed to masturbate, but they don't learn that. They're not allowed to rape their sisters, >> right? >> What are you going to have? >> You're going to have that happen, >> right? >> You know, >> it's it's very important topics that you're talking about. Yeah. >> Um, and it's true. Um, as far as uh trauma bonding that we spoke about before, can you explain it a little bit? Are you familiar with trauma bonding? What that does to the victim? >> Sure. I don't know how how well-versed I am in it, but you know, especially as a child, developmental trauma is different in a way that it really creates the patterns in your brain. It creates what your brain thinks is normal, >> what your brain thinks is okay. And if you are being sexually abused as a child over many years, your brain craves that as normal. >> So you keep on going back to that. >> Exactly. Now, part of the trauma bonding is that the mixed messages that they get from the abuser, which is sometimes they're caring and they're loving and all of a sudden they violate you and then you feel like violated and they come back and they care again. >> Yeah. >> It's like >> Yeah. I think that's abusive relationships in general. >> Yeah. >> Um like the love bombing, you know, saying like, >> "Oh, I'm so sorry. I'll never do it again." Or, "I really care about you." Or, "I didn't mean to hurt you. Um or even making them feel guilty like you know I need this you know you have to give it to me. >> Yeah. >> And sometimes there's the the the the push and pull. These manipulators the way they do it is that um they pull back from you. Imagine this. I'm talking about a child or an adult. You're in a relationship that that is like not aligned. something is wrong and everyone knows it. It's an unspoken conversation, but all of a sudden the abuser is pulling away and then the victim is running after the abuser now because he pulled away and then they p they then the kindness comes in. Then cruelty comes in. >> It's a game. >> It is a game. >> It's they do it so that they have a stronger grasp. It's like how can they get the greatest grasp I can screw with their minds. make them so confused and think that they need me. >> It is a power control. That's what it is. >> They operate on power control. >> Yeah. That's the only way they're able to do what they do. >> Yeah. And there and there and if they find a person who falls for this, then they have their victim >> 100%. So what you're saying is that if children would know and would be educated and this would be a regular topic, a regular subject, um we will disarm them. >> I believe so. I think it's part of it. I don't think there's one thing. I think we also need to bring them to justice. >> Show them that this is what happens. You will not the rabbis have to stop covering up. Psychiatrists and therapists have to stop covering up, you know, but as parents, yeah, this is what we can do. >> But what is justice help for the victim? Because I know you see you got a not guilty. >> Yeah. >> Uh Nicole also mentioned that she got her story was not believed 100%. >> The law is crazy. >> So what does the victim have from having that kind of justice, >> you know? I think it's very personal. I don't think victims need to do it. I think it's a very hard thing to do, brutal or traumatizing. Um, actually, at the end of my trial, it was a whole week. It was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Um, after Friday, it's never happened to me before. And I'm a very strong person. And I was the whole time I'm like, I'm strong. I got this. Sure, I cried. It was hard. I had support, you know. I couldn't talk. I just couldn't. People tried talking to me and I couldn't talk for 2 days and it was the weirdest thing. I was like watching myself and I was like my mouth wasn't moving. Like it was so weird and it was scary but like you know it it's so hard to go through. So hard to go through. For me personally, I wanted to stand up for Little Me. Um, and I knew the whole time that he might never be acquitted. I mean, even when he just got arrested, I was like, "Wo, that's amazing." >> Yeah. >> You know, most people don't even get arrested for this. Um, for me personally, it was to stand up for Little Me and to show other victims like you got this. It's like, you know, I I see that this happens and we have to stand up for it. >> Would you be able to do this without your family support? >> I don't think so. No. >> So, imagine what you just said. Now, think about it from a point of view for other victims. >> Yeah. >> You are lucky that you have parents who first of all tried to prevent and while you were doing what you were doing, they were there for you. >> Yeah. It's a gift because a lot of victims >> are living in isolation. >> I know. And while I was going through it, I was never suicidal, but I was like, "Oh my gosh, I totally see why people die by suicide. I see like there's no way you could go through this without support. I I don't know how they do it." So the incredible pain of suffering alone >> which means there is a victim who cannot share it with anybody. This is even before going to a professional or to a therapist or someone that holds your hand. >> This is just a victim now a kid >> which the parents deny it. >> The raon deny it the society denies it and the shame and the suffering. >> Why would they want to live here? Why would they want to be alive? >> Unbelievable. Mhm. believable stuff. >> Yeah. >> Now, do you understand why a victim would not run away while abuse is going on? You're talking about a victim was was years being abused and it is so >> um addictive these mind games. >> Yeah. Total different age total different the victim as little as the victim is the victim knows that this is something is wrong >> and they can't tear themselves away >> no it becomes very confusing I don't think they know oh this is wrong I think it's very confusing >> messages is like beyond >> it is unbelievable people call it emotional murder because you killed that person >> yeah soul murder >> when you kill that person you leave that person for the rest of their life to deal with this and to make sense and to put together this puzzle and it never makes sense. >> Plain and simple. Some people, you know, I'm lucky I think. I mean, I still it still affects me, but for people that have gone through it for years or even multiple times, their lives are ruined. Their lives are ruined. >> They have to learn how to deal with this. It's never going away. >> Yeah. >> It's just they have to find a way how to live with this. >> Yeah. And on top of that, they have to live with knowing that their abuser is protected. If they come forward, no one's going to believe them >> and their abuser is looked up to, someone that, you know, can do no wrong, living a great life. It's very hard to live with. >> So, what is the solution for a victim who was innocently uh abused and uh you know, how did they learn to deal with this after the case? >> It's a very good question. And I have I have survivors asking me that all the time, like what do I do? How do I >> how do they deal with this day and night, in and out? >> It's very hard. I think it's very different for everybody. But I think growing in your own strength, um raising your self-esteem, keeping promises to yourself. When you say you're going to do something for yourself, do it. You know, start with yourself. >> Not running away is what you're saying. Don't numb it. >> Yeah. >> Even though it's excruciating. >> Yeah. >> But don't numb it. >> No. >> Just go through it. >> Yeah. Numbing is easier. >> Yeah. Easier said than done. >> Yeah. >> And what about fear? Do these abusers usually uh instill fear in these victims? >> And they so while they're you see there's so much underlying um abuse going on while the actual abuse is going on that uh these victims live in fear. >> 100%. I was scared that my aunts and uncles were literally going to murder me, >> right? >> You know, for sure. I mean, some of them even come straight out and say, "If you do this, I'm going to hurt your family, >> right? >> I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to hurt your parents." You know, >> how much is physical pain and how much is emotional pain you would say? What percentage is when a person goes through this? >> I think for everyone it's different. >> Mhm. Um, you know, and it's an interesting point because I don't think pain has to be involved. For me in particular, it was the pleasure that was painful because now I have to deal with the pleasure being something that's confusing. our bodies just be, you know, like you eat, it feels good, you know, like, >> yeah, >> our our bodies react in certain ways. We have no control over that. And so when that happens when you're a child, it's very confusing. You're like, wait, that felt good, but it felt wrong. And then when you grow up, it's like >> it is wrong from all sides. >> It's messed up. >> Yeah. >> It's unbelievable. And what point did the big shift happen? When did why when you were 30 years old, >> you decided, you know what? >> I had this in long enough. >> I'm going to come out. I'm going to go on social media and I'm going to talk. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to make a difference in this world. What happened at that time that you felt that uh I will take this this plunge? >> Well, it started with just making the report and very interesting. I don't know why it was at that time, but my therapist was like my daughter was the same age that I was when it happened. Like it's very common that that happens. Um so it could be that that was a factor and then after the trial I started advocating for it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um so how do survivors deal with shame? I think shame is one of the the biggest parts that keep victims silent. >> And the shame is shame from the public or inner shame that you feel like um I don't know feel dirty. You feel like this is >> this is this is like this is this is too close. This is >> Yeah. I just had Rabbi Zippo on my podcast and he was abused by his nanny for many years. Um, and I asked him why didn't you say anything? Why were you so afraid? And he said he didn't want people to know how disgusting he is. >> Right. >> That's what happens. They internalize it like something's wrong with me. I'm disgusting. >> And this was an outside man. >> Yeah. Yeah. like a not Jewish >> uh not from the community >> like different different country >> different country >> yeah she was >> now what's funny is also I was going to discuss this with you for a second here there is a boy that a woman abused >> and then there is this uh your friend Nicole >> Mhm >> um was abused by a woman >> and and she was an adult she was when it was started when she was younger this is confusing 10x Like women abuse women. >> Yeah. >> Men abuse women. Women abuse men. What is going on? >> Men abuse men. >> Men abuse men. What is going on? I mean, is this just down the board? Everything is the same. >> I I think it doesn't discriminate. I think women can be abusers, men can be abusers, and then it just it's just what their preference is. Do they like girls or do they like boys? But is it worse or is it let's say like she was in the school and she was a principal >> or is it the same? I mean it's just >> it makes it scarier cuz you you're not your child is not protected anywhere >> right and you also feel that in school I don't know for some particular reason it gives off the you know I remember I saw this in one of the books and one of the safety books of the children that if a child is abused or they they feel something you know they something is off on the street they should run to the first mommy >> right >> mommy in a carriage. Yeah. >> Run to because that person will say, you know, that person has that >> empathy and but this is not the case what we're seeing. >> I think there are less women abusers. >> Correct. >> So in terms of like your safer bet would be to go to a mother with children, right? >> But yeah, women totally abuse. >> Yeah, it's unbelievable. >> Yeah, it is unbelievable. >> It is unbelievable. Like we said before, these these victims did not ask for this and it is a shame that um this is happening. It is a shame that things are being covered up because you know if two people are involved in a crime, you know, they both have to pay a price for it, >> right? >> But here there's one person who is involved in a crime drags another person in >> a vulnerable child. a vulnerable child and it has to go through like you you said before a trial is not easy. Being dissected and and and challenged and and made out to be a liar, it takes a tremendous amount of courage just to get up and say something, let alone sit on trial. And you have professionals, um real trained professionals who are there just to prove that you're lying. >> Yep. And if they can't prove it, you'll get a guilty. Uh, >> right. >> You you'll get a guilty. >> Exactly. It's not to prove if he did or not. It's to prove if I'm lying. >> Correct. >> Exactly. >> But the way the justice system works is that um people will will accuse each other every day on on on you know on on different things. >> Yeah. So is there some is there is there some sense into it that you can't just let this um you know you can't take someone's word for something because again there are predators on both sides. >> Yeah. >> There are people who like to play games this way or that way. >> Yeah. I mean I did a lot of research about this and the statistics are that 2 to 8% of child sex abuse cases come out to be false. That's a very small amount. Um, and even if a child comes back and they recant it, they say, "Oh, it's not true. I was lying." >> It's usually not because they're actually lying. It's usually because there's a lack of support, threatened, you know, they're being threatened. >> Yeah. Or they see like, "Oh my, this is what I have to deal with. Never mind. I lied." >> You know, peace out. I'm not doing this. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Is grieving something that victims um deal with after a situation like that? >> For sure. >> Where does grieving come in? Is the relationship so intense that all of a sudden where's the word grieving come in? >> There's a lot to grieve, you know? I don't I don't think it's necessarily the relationship. I think it's grieving what what happened, their innocence that was stolen. Grieving that they have to deal with it for the rest of their lives. They're not the same. >> Yeah, they were. >> Exactly. I will never know who I would have been without this. >> And all victims. >> This this changed something in you in your fabric that is always going to be there. >> It changed my every cell. Every single cell in the body is changed from it. >> Every victim. >> Yeah. >> How do you deal with grieving? Um, it's a good question. A lot of times, you know, many people have anger and really underneath the anger is is sadness, is grieving. So many people are just angry. >> Um, I I was never really angry. My therapist was very happy when I was like started to be angry because I think it's part of it, >> right? >> You know, you you need to be angry. You need to be angry. Um but grieving, you know, is just being sad. Whenever you feel sad, just feel sad. >> And everybody has a different time. >> Yeah. >> Some sometimes it takes longer, sometimes it takes shorter, but as long as you're in touch with your feelings, you're going to have grieving. >> Yeah. >> So, a lot of victims freeze up. So, a lot of victims just close down and said, "You know what? I mean that's damaging their life forever but it's ruining their relationships with their children with their families with their husbands with everything. But does that happen a lot of victims? >> Totally. That's that we have addiction. >> Yeah. >> Um it's running away. It feels better. They don't have to deal with their feelings 100%. >> How does a victim stop with these loops that's in your mind replaying all the time and understanding and revisiting and ruminating? How does a person stop that? >> I think it's a bunch of things. I think it's it's very hard. It's very hard. It takes a lot of hard work. It's not the same for everyone, you know. For me, it was EMDR therapy, a lot of support, um, you know, DBT therapy, all kinds of therapy, you know. >> What is EMDR? Does it It takes you back. It talks to your brain. Can you explain? >> Basically, the the thought process is that when trauma happens, you don't process it. it stops at a certain point. Your brain doesn't finish processing it, so you're stuck. So, it's a method of your eyes moving back and forth or touching bilaterally. Um, and you talk about what happened and then you click and your brain is able to finish the process >> and so you're not stuck in that anymore. >> And it works. You found that it works >> for me. It did. It does. It's not It's not for everyone. >> Uhhuh. >> Yeah. There's different modalities for different people, you know. >> Yeah, this is this is sad stuff that we're discussing. Um, >> how was your feedback? I mean, did people push back when you came out? >> I mean, like I said, my aunts and uncles um came to the witness stand to >> to uh >> support my grandfather. >> But I'm talking about people that you know, community friends that people um >> No, it has been very supportive. very supportive. People are very understanding. >> Yeah. I mean, if people don't understand, they don't tell me, you know. I do have some people that are like they don't understand the whole issue and they think that like I make my trauma my whole life, >> you know, they don't understand that that's not what it is. But >> did you ever have a moment that you wanted to give up like uh you know this fight? Many times >> you thought to yourself, you know what? I this is why am I doing this? >> Many times. Many times. Especially in the advocacy space like >> Yeah. >> It's very hard. It's very hard. It's It's like you have to You're constantly facing the most traumatizing thing in your life. >> Yeah. >> And people could be very They don't understand. So they could really like be like, you know, survivors totally make it up or just they don't realize how much they're supporting abusers and that's very hard. >> What would you say to women survivors um who blame themselves? I would say it's not your fault. I see you. I believe you. I believe you. And there healing is possible. Healing is possible. It's hard work, but it's possible. >> There is light by the end of the tunnel. >> There can be. It's not not everyone, but it can be. Was there ever a time that you thought to yourself that I'm stupid? Like why did I fall for this? >> Fall for what? The abuse? >> Yeah, >> sure. Sure. And I I blame myself. I should have ran away. I knew my parents told me, >> right? >> I should have ran away. >> That was the first thing that came out of your parents' mouth. I told you stay away from him. >> Exactly. But the important part is that you have to realize is that power and control from these manipulators, these these emotional abusers, >> um they're manipulating intelligent people and we have to know this. >> They're not just grooming the children, they're grooming the adults. The whole community is being groomed by them. >> Groomed by them. So everybody's a fool. Don't think that you're a fool. Don't think that you were stupid. >> Yeah. And that's why also the same thing like when you asked earlier like as an adult, you would think adults would know not to be abused. No, no, no. They are master manipulators. The entire community is fooled by them, >> right? And how did you rebuild trust in yourself and in others and you can still see a beautiful world? Um, I think I'm a strong person. I think I was born, like I said, I'm I was always a truth teller, right? >> I don't think I did anything to be that way. I think I was born like that. >> Um, but in terms of trusting other people, it's hard. It's hard, you know, especially, you know, getting married and and you have to face that kind of trust every day. Um, not in a trust in like an infidelity type of way, a trust in like, do you actually care? Do you have my back? >> Right? >> You know, in that way, are you going to stay here? >> It's a trust issue because to rebuild that, you have to start loving people again and not having like a a red flag like this may stop one day something may happen over here, >> right? And especially because the people that were meant to protect you as a child in your most vulnerable state in your whole life, >> right? >> A ch is a child. the people that were meant to protect and take care of you were the ones that hurt you. >> So that's very hard. Like why would you let yourself be taken care of again? Like no thanks, I'm good. I don't need anyone to take care of me. >> Very very good. And this is what they this is the havoc that they leave the victims with. It's not just the get over it. >> No. No. >> This is this is this is not the same thing. >> No. People don't understand. And they're like, I don't understand like why is sexual abuse such a big deal? >> Yeah. >> It's because it is the most it's it's your essence. It it's something about you that's so your innermost self is ruined. >> None better can be said. What does healing look like? Healing is not pretty. It doesn't look good and it doesn't feel good. >> Yeah. >> It's painful. I mean, you have to face what you don't want to face. You have to face those parts. You have to hurt. You have to feel anger. You have to feel sad. You have to feel shame. You have to feel guilt. You have to feel all the messy, painful things. And you know slowly slowly you start feeling better. >> Unbelievable. Let me ask you a final question. Who is your role model? >> Oh my gosh, that's such a good question. Right away, what came to my mind is my husband. >> Was he supporting you the all this time when you shared this with him? Was he there for you? Did he understand? >> He has been the most supportive person in my life. Even when I first got married, like he started standing up for me and I was like, "What? What is this?" Like, "Why is he standing up for me? I didn't even know it was possible." >> When used to it. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's been the the most supportive person in my life. Yeah. Well, >> that is a beautiful thing. That is a beautiful thing. And Hashem gave you a gift. >> Yeah. The message I take away today is silence no more. >> Silence no more. >> Yeah. >> Fear no more and doubt no more. >> Yeah. >> Um you're a hero. Um you are a role model. You're a role model for coming out and exposing and protecting and bringing awareness and helping others. And I want to thank you for turning your pain into meaning. You have a mission and you came out and Hashem should help you that you should see a lot of nas. >> Amen. >> And you should have a peaceful and a meaningful life. >> Amen. Thank you so much for having me. >> Thank you. Appreciate you coming in. Thank you. >> Thank you.