Forming Halachic Fundementals and Religious Tolerance by Rabbi Shai Finkelstein

uh I called it halak and ideological challenges CHS in pluralistic society forming halakic fundamentals and religious tolerance I decided uh to talk about this issue uh just because uh you all came here somehow um and you probably know some of those issues but we will need to try to analyze them and see how Jews really had to deal with uh other societies other religions and um what can we learn from it even when you live here in Israel so uh let's start and also we will go through few interesting things in terms of the differences between the time of the mishna talking about between 0o to 2 century and to our times many things change and we'll see how exactly it changed so let's see the mishna says the following in that's the first mishna in the M First Source on the first page you even have the English which I will not rely on so so three days before a I will call it a pagan holiday or a non-jewish holiday you're not allowed to do any business with them for three days before you're not allowed to what to negotiate with them you're not allowed to do business with them you're not allowed to lend them um utensils or things like that or to borrow from them you can't uh give them a loan and you cannot get a loan from them you cannot you cannot even pay back the loan that you took and you shouldn't get a payment for the loan that you gave them um before we'll go into the why just try to understand how many days can you work if you take all the Jewish Kim and don't forget second days and sometimes you have a three-day hug right you remember those things okay so between the Jewish Kim and the non-jewish and the three days before so how many days do you really have walking days if you have a week that you have a PES on a on a m Shabbat let's say and Sunday Monday and then there is a non-jewish hug on a on a Tuesday or on the Friday so you can't do Tuesday Wednesday Thursday so the entire week you are off I mean it's good if you go to Florida for PES but if you stay home um that's a problem so we obviously have an issue of just the the reality of the of the is but it seems to be this is the time of the mishna now we all know the mishna was was composed Where in Israel mishna is being composed in Israel they well aware of what's going on in Israel and we are talking still zero to 2 Century we are not talking about Christians we're not talking about Muslims what are we talking about pagans pagans that's it that's what we have okay so maybe maybe maybe you have early Christians towards the end of the second century because you do have in the Mish you do have some kind of comments about them so we don't know yet the reason why can't I do business with them three days in advance but let's leave that aside we will deal with that little bit later on says no no no no no if you gave them Al loone get the payback get the payment why because it really caused them pain you know I gave him a loan for $2,000 and I go to him in the three days before his holiday and I said to him what pay me back so he's obviously is not happy to pay me back so that's a good thing make him unhappy so the sages told her of UDA no no it's not true that your logic is incorrect why because even though now it's probably painful for me to pay but you know after a while you have some kind of a satisfaction you know what I paid my debt I'm free so I don't want to give him or her that satisfaction either okay when you think about this mishna uh with all its complications the first question that we need to ask ourselves obviously is what why why do you have such a law why to mitigate and to restrict the negot Neo iation and the business with non-jews 3 days before their hug so most of the opinions in the and in theim basically claims that the idea is that we don't want him to what to go to his Idol and to thank his Idol for what for the prosperity and the success that he had you basically you are aiding him in what in worshiping is idols and you shouldn't do it as a Jew even though you are not forc him to worship an idol you are not telling him to worship an idol but you know that what that he's going to do it so therefore you are not allowed to be Messiah what is a messiah someone that assist him in doing something that he shouldn't do because even though he's not Jewish still he shouldn't worship idols yes Words Be and so probably good question and I'm not an expert on paganism but uh just for a while I'll just pretend uh part of it is really that the three days is when they get ready so everything that is being done in those three days he will Channel it towards his God that's a and b also can use some of the of the proceeds in order to what to enhance his Idol worshiping so that's definitely something that you don't have just during the year okay so now that's the time of the mishna and the talks about what can you do what you cannot do for a while says the the canites are pagans are Idol worshippers oops and Sunday is their holiday so what pagans is he talking about he's talking about Christianity now so that's 12th century the rambam definitely lived among Muslims but why would he call them cananim right canites but he definitely identified the Sunday as their holiday and basically the rambam suggests that everything that we found in the mishna in AAR applies on what on on the Christians of today today 12th century therefore you are not allowed to what to negotiate with them or to do any business with them where Shabbat Shabbat so every week you are not allowed to do any business with them in is on Thursday Friday and Shabbat so Shabbat is obviously known but Shabbat there is so there yes so three days before and including and the Sunday watch for sure so Thursday Friday Shabbat Sunday you are off now everyone understands that uh it's a problem it is a problem besides the fact that it's a problem it seems to be that the rambam is talking only about where is since when what it's it seems to be a goof it's on you it's not on the land has nothing to do with the land of Israel okay Sunday you're not allowed to do any business with them on Sunday everywhere not only in is but the three-day thing is only where in is and this is the practice that you need to have every time the day of a holiday so the holiday itself is prohibited everywhere the three days before it's only where in ER is why good see come up with some kind of ideas what do you thinkes so what I mean it's wonderful but so what lots of preparation I think the round himself from the problem refering to a small area he doesn't know as yet CH lived among Christians did not he lived among bims we did not consider to be iders and so it restricts that prohibition to a very small area do directly so you basically accuse him having a self agenda right so but why is why not to talk about all Christians everywhere the what he wants to increase the business among Jews so in is there are not too many Jews or they can handle it without it well you want to have it outside world you're surrounded by G and you have to deal with a G you can deal less with a and you should deal more with the Jews to be a Jewish country okay on Bergen County Memphis until 12 um until 12 I think they're closed until 12 and then they open at 12 not all of them yeah chickfila is not that's when you know you can drive on poor pretty easily on Sunday um the thing is is that um Nal I'll take your comment in a minute is that definitely the Sunday that the rambam is talking about or before it's not the same Sunday we have we have today even in America even when things some of it is closed not all of it is closed down but also we might say that the rambam understood that the mishna was composed in erat Israel for the people of erat Israel and it might be some kind of a financial thing that in ER Israel the interaction between Jews and non-jews was minimized might be not saying that it was always like that but in you can't just do business with your own people at the end of the day you are running out of clients okay and especially when if it goods for if it's good for you the other guy is going to open up what the same business okay so you are running out of of clients so you need to increase it the only way to increase it is that to have the general society and you cannot restrict it for 3 days before Okay so until now so now we are in the 12th century the rambam is still saying what you need to keep M says at least in the three days but the holiday itself you definitely cannot do any business with him so the rambam in the Second Source that we saw says now we don't know why he called them but he called them so what does it mean so take a look at the next R the says the following there are five types of people that are called minim what is minim one who denies God or denies any um ruling of of a Divine force and someone who says there is a God but there is maybe one God two God three Gods right okay and says what there is God but he has a body or a form or someone who says that he was not the only the first God but there was someone that preceded him if someone worship some kind of other deity anyone of these five types is a mean now where is Christianity here it at least in the 12th century more than one God okay more than one God and the Goof very good so I'm not going to give a class now about the different uh different levels of Christianity and Catholic Catholic catholi and others but the idea is in the basis of the religion they believe that there is more than one God there's some kind of Trinity and also there is might be some kind of a body uh a body to to this so so according to the rambam obviously Christians are under they are and therefore what the things for the mishna applies okay T that's wonderful yes just wondering have a reasons why not to do this could it be that they felt that if the Christian not Christians but nonews are allowed to worship of their God then it's dangerous for Jews to be in too close of contact with them during that time because they will be possibly be more influenced by the religion of the neighbors of their and they're trying to do have them only do business when it's likely that neither side is concerned about religion it might be a consideration but it's not the main consideration the main consideration that being being being said in the tal is more about that you don't want to assist him to be to worship his idols there is there is in the gar also a consideration of the closeness that we do not want to create between Jews and non-jews yeah but that's not the yeah but I'm saying that's not the main the main cause it's I would say probably a secondary cause Okay okay so this is the rambam 12th century he's in Spain and then later on he goes through Israel for a while and then he ends up in Egypt okay so he's great the problem is I'm taking you in just a second okay go ahead no I was raised in Philadelphia and when I was a kid the Pittsburgh Pirates and the Philadelphia Phillies could start a game on Sunday after the sth inning because went to church in the evening also yeah yeah I understand um okay so that's was rambam that was the that was the ramb not not the B not the baseball thinging the ramb did not talk about baseball but the rambam 12th century he's in Spain now he's in Egypt his communication with Christians is minimal but there are other poim that had a lot to do with Christians and they are where in France and one of the laws that the tal brings is that you are not allowed to do with partnership with an Anu why because one of the reasons is that you are afraid there is going to be a dispute between you and him and then he will need to take a sh he will need to take an oath and in the oath he's going to want to pronounce the name of his Idol and you are basically causing him to do it okay now this is an interesting thing because you know many Jews have non-jewish Partners so they can what that they bu that they can business be open on Shabbat p and all of it right so here that's what the gar says so take a look at TOS tosot says the following page two so says that you are not allowed to be partners partners with him but also he definitely cannot what get a Shu from him why because in the sh in the oath he's going to want to pronounce his Idol's name so R is rash's Grand son maybe he saw Rashi but he didn't learn with him Rashi died at 11:05 R was maybe 5 years old um but is in the 12th century and is in France and that's beginning really of 12th century and he says the following if you see that without the sh without the oath you are going to lose money tell him to take an oath but the gar says what you can't so he says it says okay introduction we know that we have two types of of alone one with a with a document it's obviously more valid than you can have a proof and then there is what is B we just talk to each other right okay mil Al has a problem because it relies on our trust there is there are no Witnesses there's no document there's nothing it's my word against yours so if in mil Al we say that what that you can get the payment even in three days to their holiday why because if he's willing to give it to you this is can be what a onetime opportunity then he can deny it and therefore you you are allowed to collect the money so he [Music] says okay so first that so the says H I'm not that concerned about them taking an oath ah but he's going to mention is the deity says R so what everyone mentions their deity but no one really associated with what with religion or Holiness when you say oh my God is that a religious statement or is that a a phrase It's become a phrase nothing religious with it okay or when many people including Jews say G okay and they are not talking about yahushua okay um is that a religious statement no this is not a religious statement this is just a phrase so ra already in the 12th century says Rea it's nice to be a rambam sitting in Egypt with Muslims that by the way the ramb looks at the Muslim say not of the at all you are allowed to D in a mask not sure how can you get out of there but you can go in and you can DAV there but you are not allowed to go into a church to DAV and to go to a church that's a different issue but the idea is is what is that according to the rambam it's pretty easy obviously you can say it's not allowed because you have nothing to do with those Christians R understood and you can see in many places he I don't know if he was a businessman but he definitely supported himself not via being a Riva um you know how many students are bad in his Yeshiva quote unquote take a guess between 10 and 12 probably yeah and do you see how many he was able to to create and do we understand how much he influenced how we look at the tal you don't need too many Med you just need to have the right ones okay so the thing is that's that was the that we are talking about theen I think we have a documentation somehow based on his house and the things that we know maybe he had 25 students that's that's what it is the what they started like that um so the thing is is that we have according to RI says today things change this is where the point come to uh this is the point that I want us to focus on Ren 12th century around the same time of the rambam okay two totally different perspectives rabut looks at the non-jews around him which were all what Christians and he says already then in the 12th century when you think that they were religious and and adim that they were like committed to religion he says yes they might go to church every morning and evening and and morning however when they take an oath and they say the name of their God it's really not a religious service that's what R claims and therefore you can be their partner and you can allow them to take a Shu if you see that what that you are going to lose money has to be pragmatic everybody surrounded by okay just imagine let's say you don't even have have them as a partner you sold them a shirt and they tell you I'll pay you tomorrow and you say sure you call tomorrow and say where's my payment what are you talking about okay I'll take an oath knowing that what that you will say no no no no don't take an oath those Jews will be destroyed financially so and this is now the question and it's a tricky question be careful when you see a change in which is based on a change in what in reality ra basically says what the reality changed when they take an oath now and they mention the name of their God it's not their God it's just a phrase does the change in society and in their reality influence Hal or no he said the Hala is that taking an oath like that is really not such a problem and also it match to what to the reality that I live in now why am I'm telling you it's a tricky question because you understand that if we say that the only option is the first one which is what changes in reality dictates we are opening what a Pandora box you understand it now we don't need to be afraid of it I'm just saying that we need to be aware of what we say now according to Raben he still it does not say that the Christians are not pagans or they they there are lovely people that we need to it doesn't say anything he's just talking about what this business and the oath that's what he's saying he's saying for now okay now he completes I just need to complete the sentence going to translate he says look I understand they might say I'm taking an oath in the name of God and the Savior okay so you are basically they [Music] are with their God the it's called sh and they are not allowed to do it and we are not supposed to what to help them he says no he says even when they mention their God they still have in mind what our God now this is uh one of two things he had no clue what they are saying or he knew very well what they are saying and therefore he said they really mean to say what the one God now look very much like am Israel uh we are I think we are just we read more but if you just imagine if you talk to a regular Christian farmer in France in the 12th century what do you think he knew about his religion Clum kimat almost nothing the the thing that he knew was what that the Jews crucified his God and that that what was jewi um not sure if he knew that either he knew that what that he needs to confess his sins and to give money to the priest he knew that his land is probably owned by the church okay does he know Theology of religion does he know how to read no by the way as a side note most of the businesses the Jews did talking about big businesses was with whom with the clerks in the church because they knew how to read and write and to do some math the other 95% of the population had no clue what's flying I know it's hard for us to be to believe it and to understand it but that's be what I know in England for example most of the major transactions were between the Jews who knew how to read write and to do math and the clerks and theim the the knights and whatever anyone who knew how to read and write write and read and that's it the others the farmers just they didn't know a thing says even when they mention whatever they are being told to mention they have no clue they believe in in the God who created Earth and Heaven so take a look 12 Century Two Pim two totally different realities two to totally different conclusions now one more thing according to RAB he basically says that whatever the mishna and the gar says do not apply anymore right that's basically what he says the gamar says you are not allowed to I'm telling you you are what you are allowed to the gamar says you're not allowed to take an oath from them I'm telling you what you are allowed so what do you do with the and the mishna circum different circumstances so the does not apply anymore the what sure yeah this idea of is is a very interesting invention of the ramb which is very problematic because the mishna does not talk only about Israel ever unless they say it a slippery slope yeah but there are two slippery slopes you know every slippery slope have two sides so the idea is yes I was just wondering when you mention the word makes it sound extremely serious the question is some of these things that are stated here what is the origin of as opposed to thinking of it as an opinion of these people who stated based on their view of Jewish in other words in other words it doesn't say anywhere in the Torah that you can't do business days sure words so I said the reason for that the basis right so the reason for that is the basis is right so theim I agree if Dove is asking a question it says Where in the Torah it says that you're not allowed to do business three days before the answer is it's nowhere in the Torah it's obviously a Rabin decree however this rinic decrees in order to fulfill Pim that talks about the idea of distancing yourself from pagans and the talmud from talks about this Pim now you can say with all du respect to this Rabin inment you know what does not apply anymore goodbye thank you okay but that's with everything in and without that we'll have a problem okay so we have definitely tremendous respect to what they said the question is R he's saying I'm not saying that they were wrong they were right in their time but it's not right in my time it might be that in 10 years from now they will continue to be right it might be but where it depends on what and this is was my question the tricky question if you tell me that just because the circumstances changed and the reality changed so I changed the but it's not permanent it's temporary why because in 50 years meaning the Mish is still does still apply it just the circumstances change but if the circumstances are going to change again so the mishna will apply that's the naam that's the ramification but if I say what the mishna cease to exist so even if the circumstances will change the mishna does not apply anymore yes sure I think the rabbis are always important but um I agree the only thing is that you can see two major Pim that came up with totally two different conclusions so if I'm a Jew and I'm calling the rambam can I do a partnership with a non-jew can I take a Shu from him the rambam will tell me what if you are in Isel 3 days before you can't on the holiday itself you definitely cannot okay I call okay I Google RAB and rabam says to me what no problem you can do it not saying no problem but you can do it if you need it and there you can you can do it so what do I do okay so take a look take a look take a look take a look okay your explan oh I think if any yes no this one that you just said uhhuh that if it applies sometime in the f could apply to everything we do sure that's what I said we are opening a Pandora box exactly I didn't give my opinion yet I'm just opening it up for our discussion because we're going to see and that's it wear you say little it maybe I touch something the light the lights on but I think it wasn't on for a minute that blue light wasn't on for a minute it might be the only problem with that is that in many places in without businesses with non-jews we will not be able to survive not only that we know Jews who buil churches Who Sold Christmas decorations okay crosses and all of it in order to what to to be able to sustain their families and all the rebat all the what we were accused in interest and everything was who to whom not to Jews we can't give to Jews so we obviously have an issue but the problem is if you tell me that every time there is a financial uh burden we're going to change the so all those books here we can just throw them and just uh say whatever sounds good to you right we but we don't we don't operate like that you understand the issues okay if you want to understand it more let's see the says like that okay ra also explains that what the B that in in today's life in the 12th century second s Second Source on the page so everyone mention their God's name but no one really think about what their religious connotation even though that they really mentioned like the name of their God and even though and even though they mention the name of God and their God basically again quotes r that says exactly what the same thing so you see that this opinion of is cemented it's something strong that's is being repeated a few times so you know that he probably said it now just as a side note it's not that R wrote it okay these for were edited maybe after 100 years after he died but that was the from that that what you do now when I look at rabam and what he did obviously it's uh it's Noble and it's it's new it's Innovative it's courageous all of that but it's really and it's practical for sure but it's still in the realm of what of trying to solve the issue Prat by Prat detail by detail meaning I have an issue can I take a sh from a nonu answer is yes can I be his partner the answer is yes but Rab's um mindset perception on the general Society was the same thing like we have in the mishna and in thear nothing changed but by the way I don't blame him you know at the time of the Crusades in the 12th century in France they almost killed him he was saved by a knight who knew him and saved him he was already beaten he almost died and this Knight somehow came and saved him saved rabam so rabam knew exactly who he he dealing with so his uh approach towards them was not like you can't say they oh he was very liberal and pluralistic this is not the issues those are not the terms we are talking about he's talking about being practical and also understand the according to his opinion also a possibility that the fact is that they also believed in what we call the Old Testament and that that the original of what the idea of mon monotheism was incorporated originally in Christianity except um it might I didn't see that uh allowed them toed his I don't know I think that I think I I didn't see that uh does not mean it does not exist but I didn't see that as a reason I think the reason is more the fact that they have no clue what they're saying uh which is based on what the gamar says they just doing tradition also they also have a tradition and they don't know anything about it okay the one who really made a tremendous change in perspective was thei uh who lived in the end of 13th century beginning of the 14th century in parpan we know it's now considered provance but before that French changed a lot and things sometimes were considered France sometimes it was considered Spain whatever it is but that we found his manuscripts 100 and something years ago it was not known to many of the Pim because the manuscript was not found but now we find it and he has a an extensive work on thear and also he quotes a lot a lot of the rishonim before him uh he has a tendency to Accord with rambam and Rashi but not always um and he has a tremendous access to many rishonim that were before him so he says the following and what he says it's a revolution says the main things that in my opinion [Music] is he says everything that it says in the mishna and in which by the way does not talk only about what you know what let me digress for a second when we talk about the relationship between Jews and non-jews you have what well let's create categories business marriage what else socialization socialization perception njws had their own perceptions on us we had our perception on them always like that when you have two societies that don't know each other or they don't know each other too well they start developing some kind of preconceive ideas and there is a lot of animosity and all of it there is also some kind of reciprocity if you learn minhagim you see that sometimes minhagim that are totally Christian became converted into Judaism and some minhagim from Judaism were converted into Christianity so you see it many times also with Muslim countries same thing now having that in mind we understand that sometimes we can have restrictions that will never change such as no no I'm talking about between Jews and non-jews Inter marriage that will be the ultimate one right that will not change even RAB is not going to say what because they have no clue what they are saying you allowed to marry them right this is not happening so we have the changes can happen where in the business side in the social socializations which will not cause marriage but that's will be a tricky one because we always have a fear of what of too much socialization will bring you to marriage and then you have preceptions what are the preceptions so I'll tell I'm going to tell you something and you're going to I'll say it now so I can escape um you know the Crusaders so they started at the end of the 11th century 1096 in Germany and then they went to France and there are two major articles about it um I think it's only in Hebrew I maybe it's was in English too um we Jews when we read the Crusaders and we read about the Crusaders we focus on what on the kashem the Jews did right the sanctification of the name of God that they jump into the fire and you know even there are some testimonies that they killed each other in order not to convert to Christianity and they killed their children and then there was a discussion about that we are amazed by the fact of what of the k the Jews did which by the way was not all the Jews but some of the Jews did how do you think the non-jews viewed it that they see a mother kill her child so he will not convert to Christianity so you can look at that as wow they are willing to do that in order not to convert to Christianity this religion is incredible or you can say this religion is crazy is crazy the child can continue to live so he will believe in G and in whatever for that you kill your own child are you crazy and the interesting part in this two articles is yal Israel and and I forgot the other one they are dealing with the issue of how the Jewish reaction to the Crusaders was viewed by the Crusaders eles for some of them it was reaffirmation for what they heard in church that the Jews are what are crazy or devil okay because who is going to do something like that to their children so why am I telling you that just to talk about perception now you have other perception from the Jewish perspective you know that you are not allowed to according to the you are not allowed to ask um a non-jew to babysit for your kids now you can imagine why you are not allowed them to ask you to babysit for your animals no you are too nice what you are too nice what okay that that's perspective perceptions perceptions from one Society on another can you imagine what they think when they see us shaking the Lula do you think what we think about them going in a mess in the middle of the night with whatever they have in their hands okay so when you don't know or even when you know and you think it's crazy you create perceptions and sometimes look the blood Libations how can you with a normal brain can think something like that answer what's the answer if you open up the Bible Old Testament does the Old Testament says that you need to kill a Christian boy in order to what to bake matot no but why would you believe that I can do it because I'm crazy I have a crazy religion I'm a devil and because I'm a devil I'm a Satan that's what I do and you have to blame somebody else leave alone the blame and the anti-Semitism and all of that I'm talking just about how can you come up with something like that so and how do i a Jew can come up with the idea that a non-jew because he doesn't believe in in the way I believe he's going to want to be able to God forbid to do terrible things to to someone's child or to my animal it's all perceptions and there is fear and there are decrees so no one likes each other okay now also this is from England I can tell you because this is more my expertise so I don't know I'm not an expert on anything else I'm probably not an expert on England either but there was a time that Jews also had slaves and made servants like slave women and slave men there was a time I think in the beginning of the 12th century that the church came up with the thing that Jews cannot have slaves Christian slaves and they need to give them what Sunday off weekends off uh holidays off and whatever so when they had those slaves they didn't go anywhere so they basically were at The Jewish Home and they didn't go anywhere now imagine you go and you are a an employee at a Jewish home and you see that on on PES they take a cup of wine and they start do for the K and after that they say now let say he's a very inquisitive uh slave and he says to his master can you please explain to me what you say and the master says oh a great opportunity for right we are ding that God will destroy the go this guy goes home for the weekend and he goes to his priest and he says to his priest what you know Passover night they want us to be destroyed the priest says opportunity you can understand that What's happen is is that there is a transformation of information without too much of what of knowledge and there is hate and there are preconceived ideas so you can understand what's going on by the way I'm not trying to justify anything I'm just trying to what to describe the reality so now so if we have those four buckets I call it like that okay inter marriage socializations Financial or business and perceptions so as I said before there are few buckets that you cannot change and there are few buckets that you can change if you look at Christianity in a different in a different way so says it [Music] says says everything we spoke about he will explain what does it mean everything everything we spoke about in thear regarding what the pagans it's only about the pagans it does not apply on Christians and Christianity and he says says what is a it seems to be like a Christian is always so there is no change says the I will explain in a minute which means says the word does not mean only what Christian it means what only you remember narar made himself an idol and he was like the sun Su day okay that's why Sunday became a day of their worship so it says it's not Christians now to be very honest nice but I'm not going to build on itth too much but the built on it he says look does not mean necessarily and therefore what is his conclusion what does he want to accomplish he wants to accomplish the following I'm taking the mishna I'm taking the gar everything that it says there which is not we'll see in a minute not not in a minute we'll probably see next week everything that is intermarriage or other things that will not be allowed but all the preceptions that we have on Christians and all the other restrictions of business cease to exist Theon does not cease to exist exist never existed you with me R that's different than RAB RAB R says what it existed but now reality dictates that we need to what to say that the circumstances change the says it never existed why because Christians were not even around it was only about pagans it's not about the circumstances that changed we are talking about a different religion so now he will need to explain why Christianity is what it's not paganism and why our perceptions on pagans should not be the same one on Christians so how is he going to do it come next week