Eps 5. Missing Mussar

Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in agura Israel or that was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabas? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the Times dives into the big concepts and overlook moments that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. This is Jewish history like you've never heard it before. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephraim Zalma Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. In Ll 1913, a young man then a 23-year-old Talmid of the Slavotka Yoshiva in Lithuania described in his diary what he was experiencing. You already know well what one day of lolin slabodka means. He wrote one day it contains eternity. Every corner breathes yura. Every word sparkles with fire. Every glance seems to say hame the king. Hashem is in the field. Who can remain unmoved? Who doesn't tremble with fear and longing all at once of he continued his diary entry. A hush settles over the yeshiva. The rooms fill with an almost tangible anticipation. Any moment now, the heart will crack open with a first cry. Ben Adam and all of us standing like children before our father, ashamed, excusing, begging. My dear rebalinski, that was extracts from the diary of none other than the great Rav Elli Kaplan, one of the altar Slavska's most gifted Talmidium, later the head of the Rashiva the Rabina seminar based med in in Berlin. Those were quotes from his diaries that were essentially became equal. I want to contrast that with today because today we have Ll is no doubt undoubtedly a very beautiful inhivas and yet the long-standing joke is that the only tuna musa or Musa movement that exists is when everyone heads for the exit when Musa begins with Elland Rabalinsky. I don't think any selfrespecting podcast such as behind the times can ignore this giant topic. Musa, more specifically the missing Musa movement. >> So Abdal, you brought up a topic within itself, which is what's the role of the Musa movement in our lives, in our present day lives. Now it's very easy to say and there are people who say that Musa doesn't exist today and >> I just said that by the way, right? >> It's very easy and I just said it >> right. So I personally think it's a mistake because while it's true that the original form of Muser does not exist today, but the outcomes of Muser do exist, do still exist. And I think it's kadai to start off by saying that one of the great and I think you're going to be mentioning him later on. One of the great talid of the Muslim movement, the original Muslim movement was Rav Destler. and and Rav Destler realized at a certain point which was during World War II that the original Muslim movement is not going to work anymore. And we might get into more detail in the continuation of this episode what he actually did. But just thinking about that that nikuda theor realize something that some many did not realize that something has to change. I mean the way you speak to bakim today cannot be in the original form of of the muser of past. By the way, I want you to know that when I was learning in yeshiva in in the yeshiva, which was like 40 years ago, so yes, which later on became my wife's uncle, my my wife's great uncle, he was a typical product of the of the Muslim movement, the son of was like the inabot and during the lifetime of the altar and p used to give a schmuz and every gave not only during Every that he gave involved some way or another of him breaking down in crying and tears. Okay, that was the level of emotion >> that was invested in these type of today you wouldn't find that I mean I don't think there's anyone today any mush today no matter how emotional he is would break down in tears at a regular musm right maybe here and there you would have that what I did find was that there is one mash today that's left who is a small echo of the original and that's seal if you've heard of sealmusim So the emotion that he puts in and the way he repeats the words and how his voice cracks sometimes and all that but even Raan I personally heard Rabdan seal as a young bak because this used to bring him to give but >> I think you mentioned in a previous episode that he wouldn't Yeah. They had to go somewhere else. Exactly. So I just want to point out that even Abdul Sega who is an echo of that original movement he himself is already toned down a notch. I mean the content of his are much more geared to like you know inspiring and giving and showing how good we are and all that even though the flavor is still there. The flavor of the old Muslim movement is there. So let summing up your question. Okay, it's true that original Mus Muslim movement is it does not exist anymore, but what we have today is an outgrowth of the Muslim movement and maybe later on episode we'll talk about in more detail. So just to give those a breakdown those questions what we're going to be dealing with this episode over here is and perhaps I've been entirely undermined my premise over here Rabbi Galinsky these things happen here. So what we're going to be talking about is again what were the central teachings of of Musa of the movement number one. Number two, what did Ella look like in the Musiv? We've obviously started with a flavor of that. Number three, what happened to the Musula movement? As you say, or Galinsky, it continues and has informed, let's say, underwritten the development, the postwar development of the Musa, but what actually happened to it over there. And I'd like to say that appropriately for a very serious-minded podcast, an elite podcast like our own Rabbi Galinsky, okay, which is there will be dollops of quotations from Musla sources and lots to take home. So let's begin part one over here. What did Musa teach her? I think it's good to start with some historic backgrounds. We talk of the early 1800s, Lithuania. The life was obviously traditional life but it was shaping around the Shiva world grow outgrowth through from the teaching of the vagin that was very much the center of Lithuanian life and everything we know about that we comes along rais salar lipkin uh of salant uh zund of salant who comes along and he says there's a basic problem over here because what he identified as a problem in in I suppose Shime that Torah which is meant to shape the high uh ethical level of a person somehow somewhere was not uh he felt that it needed it was there was a gap and there was some system was needed to supplement the the level of toy and that I think perhaps we'll hear from you soon >> and inherently that every the muser exists inside the toy because what do the bal mus do they just collect original balm mus they just collect sources >> I meanikim for example classical work of mus studied learned in Musa and hunched over in their hat and jacket in Musa and they're going to be learning which is basically a a comp compilation of about any given topic anger you know impatience or reason >> exactly so so theoretically speaking someone who learns Tory should be getting that from the Torah itself there should be no need for a special Muslim movement or Muslim seder or but Raante had realized that that ethical side of us, ethical side of was not shining enough as an understatement, right? You know, I don't know if you know this, but the famous story that that is told and I grew up in America like over 40 years ago and anyone who remembers that time, the most famous popular publication for the kids at those times was Olain. You read that as a child as well? >> Back of Shaw. I did. >> Right. So, we had Can I just flag over here? I get into menal the mouse did that thing exactly men the mouse right okay so you had in the back pages the back page that they gave the idea to put a cartoon type of thing on the back of the page >> they must be one of the first >> they were the first they were the first then all the Israelis copied them afterwards but that was the first publication that did it and there was one of the I remember this as a child this famous comical strip of can't call it comical like strip yeah a restoration of salant how he's sitt sitting in a shul somewhere and the shoe maker is marrying off his child to like ash guy whatever it was and every you know he was so proud of himself and one of the barbatim couldn't stand it that this push shoemaker was getting so much cover so in the middle of the in the middle of creasy whatever it was he picks up his shoe and he says mendle when can I bring my shoe to to fix by you in your shop like you want to show Right. Want to show like uh >> humiliate him dragging >> and I'm sure Santa was shocked by that. That's the story. I don't know if the story happened or not happened but that was the story that >> you mean that was the trigger. He kind of realized >> that was the trigger. >> You realize you can be as f as you are. >> Exactly. Right. Right. And you can trample someone. >> You know the yas say by the way this is not coming the talk about the comes before because yashus needs to come before kasharus. That's a very thing very thing as well. But the idea is >> in any case he realized something was needed and and people were not getting the ethical sides of Yiddish guide from the standard learning and you had to supplement that that with with a special study of these sources and in a very unique manner which you're going to be talking about later on but you know and all that you'll get to that but but that's what he realized but I want I want to point out something over here is before did it exist exist. >> It existed in a format that if you had a son who was capable and wanted to learn, >> he's go to find one of the prominent rabbon him. >> Exactly. He would go to the local shul and and he if he lucked out and the local shul had a r who was able to teach then he would have aba and and that's how he would strike right and was the first one who made like a central institution. I don't mean I don't mean it didn't exist. Clearly >> they had local they had local yeshivas. I'm not talking about the times of the gimm. >> Hold on. There were there were there was I don't know you get into Prague had a big yeshiva different and people wouldn't always brilliant tidim would go a longer distance to go and be and you know to learn tyra they didn't necessarily have to go in the local all the time. >> I think that in time that was the mitsus. >> Okay. There was Mir. I think Mir was in existence original Mir. We're not talking about the Mir of of the alter's son of Lazuda and his father-in-law, but we're talking about the original. There were very few and wanted to make a central institution that would attract chenagers from all over >> also very brilliant elite, >> right? And everything would be taken care of. I mean, the food even though it was still eaten by balabatim and all that, but it was centralized. There was someone you had there was a system. You had someone who was going to take care of you, right? And you had shurim that were geared according to the groups. But one thing was missing and people don't realize this that besides for Gumarra there was nothing. No shurim, no schmusim, nothing. It was just >> Well, hold on. Let's be clear. They learned that in Gomorra they learned the whole of Shass at the same time. >> Right. I understand. But there was no special, no special. >> So where did this develop? This is much later. >> Oh, this is much much later. Right. >> 50 60 years later. Now, now you're talking about Solanto. You have to understand Rabbi Solanto did not, he himself and even his directim did not manage to open up yeshivas that are structured around Muser. This is only a later development than that had three main talum. Okay? And they were the altar of Kellum who had a very small yeshiva called the Talmud of Kellum. I think there were like maybe 30 maybe 40 people learning there and these was like the elite of all the yeshivists that were older all of them at the end became like big balus or big you know I think was there for a certain kuf but >> hold on that wasn't couldn't have been under the al of kum >> no for sure not this is I'm just looking at the tal of kum right right but was the al of himself learn kern kufa Even though he like they parted ways right but that was the alt of that's one time of the raisant another time was Amsterdam who was the R of Helsinki in Finland he was the chief rabbi and then he came to to he lived in Kat you know where is today it's like is the yeshiva there and that's where he lived and the third also lived there plaza who was again he was a rv of a very St. Peter Petersburg in Russia and today called Leningrad and >> No, it's not. It's back to St. Petersburg. >> Oh, it's back to St. Petersburg. >> When I was growing up, it was Leningrad, right? >> You're giving away your age here. You keep by the way, you keep dropping hints throughout this podcast. He he was also the one who wrote the f first famous work of >> Muslim >> which is by the way I think is a fascinating I myself discovered number of years ago a fascinating what's called glatter burim very his bureim his explanations of complicated pieces of gar related to true of a different thing have a particular almost like the vagon in that they when you see them you're like That really makes it's so glat it really it's not a >> the story goes that says that he has three he has the which is alter of kellum he has the lambd who is >> but lambd is is what is the safer >> and the tad of Amsterdam that's was known now all of these had all these people right out of kellum had his own yeshiva like a very small yeshiva but the Other two they were mashpan yeshivas but the yeshivas there were no big yes yeshivas who were structured around the mus you mentioned the third one was the altar of >> no altar of kellum had a small yeshiva petber was the r of a city and was also correct me where does the ala nar come >> so now so that that's a later development already that's the next generation okay and the the alto of slabka was like a tal of the alto of kellum until he decided that he's going to open up his own his own yeshiva called the whole is about it very nasty piece of history dove katz has a booklet a pamphlet that was >> do cats please just explain he's going to be appearing he was the biographer movement wrote something called mus so he has a pamphlet that was that's hidden today I mean that's maybe you can find it in the online somewhere it's called pulam and he gives you all the nasty details of the mus about the >> I can tell you that Google searches about pulam musa which is going to skyrocket now because people always want to find things that have been banned and hidden >> what they say at that time that revolvers were drawn at that mas okay do you understand what that means that was >> like a western >> a western right so it was it was a big it was a very bitter mahus because over this was the first time that in the yeshivas there's going to be something else besides for learning gimmar Okay. >> I mean it's earth shaking. Yes. Today it sounds okay. This is the mashia and he does his thing you know and he gives some people like it some people don't some people go some people don't. But the idea is you're saying you're right is the staple is the only item on the curriculum. It's like opening let's the yeshiva you know po the poetry of the of a special sad for poetry. >> Right. You can imagine that. >> Right. Can you imagine how would that go? >> How that would go down. Correct. >> Right. So these two yeshivas Slabka and Novaruk they were the the first ones who actually structured a yeshiva around Musa and that took off at a certain point all the yeshivists adopted >> that approach even the yeshivists who originally >> even the resistance I mean famously Mir became you were going to get on to this but let me just jump the gun over here famously Mir became a place that it was resistant and it wasn't but I think it was because the RV of me saw at one stage when there was great poverty in the yeshiva if I'm not if I'm not mistaken And then there was a kind of rebellion of the Bakarim and they said and that they weren't they down tools they went on strike and made a picket line and he said well if that's what we need in addition he said in addition to the Tory clearly Tory is not working as it should be he said let's bring Mos >> so so the mere was there was there's certain technical or biographical detail that that made that made the big change is that the alter son of blazuda became the son-in-law of the rashiva of the mir and he eventually became the rashiva of the mir. that automatically turned mirror into part of the Muslim. What's fascinating about me is that while was alive who was the right was gave him like the the most prominent role in the yeshiva. >> He was but I think he was a mash but he was he >> was the he was the of the yeshiva. So that shows you where was coming from you know a standard lit yeshiva anti-lit this couldn't happen such a thing >> it was a complete takeover >> exactly exactly that the fact that the mash became the central figure of the yeshiva that turned mir into a uh >> I mean eventually from me we had the last great what you say musa figure who made it into the 21st century was essentially mulba a talmid of only for a few months but he considered himself he was more a tal of his talmid and he'd come from Frankfurt and yaka home but he was the figure single I think most identified he was last the person known university as the mash the masha right he's probably the last barmu who had a massive impact on on on current day society and by the way since you mentioned his name I I just want to mention this that what was so so unique about revol Bulba and I was thinking about a long time and I realized that when you open up Allesure >> you'll realize that is it's the first muser cafer that was written in what you call med how would you translate that >> spoken modern >> like spoken modern Hebrew it it talks to the Israeli the Israeli teenager or Israeli >> well I think it's more than Israeli teen I think it is there's something very academic and structured the safer is structured on topics, right? And broken down into subtract and his style went over very well with academics and with professionals and with military people he talked to I think we mentioned in previous previous episode as well. But I think one important thing to to understand here about what Musa actually meant how did you the salanta was as you mentioned before for Sulkas it was a methodology to internalize and I think this is a really important aspect of what Salanta was teaching >> I think I heard this from Raulba directly I'm almost sure I heard this from I don't know if I I've told you this but I grew up like two buildings down from Rulba in general so I had a to to my father allowed me to go every shabas night instead of going with my father to like more of a toin I used to go to hear on Friday night >> was that in and I had supposed to hear him a lot many times many times and I actually even spoke to him a few times and he was even at my my kdish my al from my bar mitzvah or from my wedding I don't I don't recall one of the two but in any case I think I heard this directly that salant hid on to Freud's idea of the the subconscience before Freud publicized it at least and his whole idea so delus was to be mashia on the subconscious >> right and this is I think as you say the subconscious I think we don't we underestimate how much of our you know of our daily activity and what we do is influence dictated by what's happening in the subconscious and the Santa was saying it's no use just being intellectually aware of XY Z that Hashem exists that we have we have to we can't just be aware of things intellectually we actually have to in order to implement them in our lives we need to internalize them and what he did therefore was propounded a methodology he based not a he was based on what were already saying we meaning you have to know something takes place in intellectually in the brain in the mind you need to intern internalize into the heart because the heart is the organ that really the suit of emotions that dictates what is actually going to happen and what he was doing was saying this is how we're going to get bridge this gap very small but very big and very chismic gap between the mind and the heart. And that's what he was doing. And how did he do that, Rabbi Gillinsky? They repeated things, right? They in the Muslim movement, they would go over famously, it's almost like a joke. The and that's the problem rabbi Gillinsky that it's become such a, you know, everything about the Muslim movement, it's a joke. And the old joke is the guy turns up in a vadic one day and he says and he hears everyone saying and he he sits down and he says I'm a worm not a man is and this the old person you know someone two two two two places away taps his friend he says he's been five minutes already he already thinks he's a worm so I mean that's where do you get jokes like that means it's difficult to take the Muslim movement seriously it's also difficult to understand what it was doing and I think with your permission Abigolinsky if I may just explain there's something remarkable you mentioned before of desla he has a remarkable piece talk on pes about pes about the sedan night in which he breaks down how the Muslim movement worked based on the pesa and he says the following very he starts with the following very interesting question he says what is it about the seda pesa why is it so juvenile it sounds like it's you know something for crash or a nursery kindergarten Right there lots of singing lots of questions famous that says that you know the is that there's no children person have to ask himself right so so says yes that the is it says time has to be done that's his >> and that begs the question obviously points out question why you sitting there in a on a desert island of of in in the middle of the Pacific on a microscopic uh spec called Micronesia. Why would you need to actually sit there just think about the manish? Why do you need to ask it? You need to ask it out loud. Why do you need to say question and answer? And you know there's so many aspects once you start looking at the pes you'll see it's so remarkable how it indeed is so juvenile in that way specifically. So we repeat things over and over again. We say things like, you know, if Hashem hadn't taken then this and much more economically in ink is to go through a whole list and then say, you know, and all of that and then when that's finished, we go and we repeat the whole thing. What's this business or all of that? So that's his question. Why is it so juvenile? And he said, you know why? Because the night of sedan night is not about intellectually getting gaining new intellectual knowledge. It's about internalizing internalizing that which we already know. We know Hashem we know controls the world. This is the night on which you internalize it. Now if you are meant to internalize things meaning it's got to travel that highway from the mind to the heart from the to the what is going to happen? You've got to talk to the heart as in language that it understands. The heart he says is a child. We never talk to the heart properly. How do you talk to the heart the emotions? You talk to them as a child. You repeat things. You go into detail. You ask questions. You sing right. That's what happens and that is why so so take a step back. The beautiful perish should be remembered. We should replay this episode. Note to listeners this is what you need for pes. I think it's very fascinating what you just said because Davka that Ra desestler >> who understood that is the correct manner of being mash on people he was the one who break who broke away right >> broke away meaning >> from the standard muser yeshiva type of of big masher right even though people tell me I heard eyewitnesses telling this that there was a there was once a a kashmal there was a power cut and I I think in America they say it differently. Okay. Power out outage, right? >> Okay. An outage. Americans say everything differently. >> So someone was sitting next to Rav Destler in the Bismetovich and he was learning Muslim. >> No, because he repeat it means to to go and to say it with passion and again right that's what he was doing >> right himself towards himself was still a Muslim. He himself was he was mashp. >> He was a kma. >> He was a kma. He when when when he realized that it was not going over well with the bakran he realized something has to be changed the >> postwar generation >> now now there is a there's a fascinating story I want to tell you two stories okay number one story about is that I just read it recently because you know is close to 100 or maybe over 100 and and he knew like for 90 years 80 years right a lot of used to come to his parents' home in in London and you know stay over and he has firsthand accounts and he remembers in London in England the before he started I think before a deso started the gates seminary he they used to gather girls and women to like someone's living room and he used to give them shimk you know like like you have and he felt that's the way to mash on on the new generation does a fascinating story they put out a safer last month I think it's called vanogus and and he tell f he tells firsthand hand accounts with and he brings it sma he says that an older galatian rov maybe you know who it is because he doesn't bring his name he breaks into the living room over there with a stick in his hand with his cane and he starts beating Raves joking >> that's what he writes he start beating Raves because he's talking to girls and talking about you know this whole new uh >> because a very a very intellectual based exactly rigorous understanding explanations of Yiddish guides >> and Resler surprisingly was not angry at him he's shim this person he says he what he's doing is shamim I think I still think that's the way to be mashia and the same thing he thought in the yeshivas you have to change change the concept of mus and he but hold on can I just jump in over there I think what he saw forget internalizing basics mus was saying we know the truth in our head. We're now going to internalize it in our emotions and the heart and therefore we can act. He was coming onto a generation in which we've talked about this repeatedly in which even the basics were not clear had not been accepted. So what did he do? He said we have to go back to basics. But of course the Muslim movement >> I think it's more than that. Even if you have a generation before let's say before you had a generation who knew the basics, right? But they never it was never needed because they never dealt with the wise. They dealt with the what's right? Because if you're growing up in a society where no one asks you what your opinion is, right? And you have to do things because you are told to do things either by the government or by the local the local parets whatever it is or by your parents whatever that was society all over the world. That was you did what you were told to do. There was no room for why. >> Okay. Eastern Europe was far more had to construct a whole new he realized that in the new generation without explaining the why you're not going to get anywhere. >> But in other words, you're right. But what Resessa was dealing with the western raised Eastern Europe was destroyed. Eritis was being rebuilt. England, America was in England, but it applied. He had a son who went to Cleveland, right? It was Yeah, for sure it was dealing with the wives. was dealing with the basics to get people on board. But he would have deser would have agreed and seen that this was a step back, a massive step back. You couldn't assume you weren't about it wasn't a matter of internalizing emotionally the existence of Hashem and his power and his greatness. It was a matter of what does Darwin have to say? I mean Raaset was the one who dealt with you know fundamentals the connections between Torah and science and all different things like this. his Talmid Arya Carmel as well he was dealing with it was so basic he had to provide a rational framework so that people could even permit themselves to step through the door of the yeshivas and everything like this we've seen that there was a movement a Musa movement it was about internalizing things that employed these methods which are radical and yet old methods it's not something that restockes he would just he just re he turned it into a system of internalizing things and therefore changing the changing the subconscious changing the roots of the human character which was a radical approach and radically successful in producing very great people over there. What he did was created talk about ll now he created you know the high point of this was obviously ll had always been ll had always been I think it was raisant famously said that back in the old times bemoaned the fact that the loss in ll's stature and the way it was >> he was a child remember that when the kazan used to call out that right so the woman in the would start weeping and he attest he attest to the fact that even in in his day when he was older that stopped already and it wasn't it's not only in our generation. So we've been cracking about about about about the UI satur but so so l had this ll being the high point obviously was not of the Muslim movement but it was because the Muslim move it was a very intense time and it turned into we started this episode by talking about quoting from Ram Alle Kaplan's diary but it just another little flavor from here because it's just so special he talked about the first shabasan ll he says it's the singing in the B medish not just The niggon is soaked with awe and uplift. I don't hear a tune. I hear hearts crying, knocking on the gates. I don't see people. I seen a shamas standing before the king. And then he says this great phrase again from this diary which became he. He says this ll carries a power to renew the soul as if the whole world's been created again and each of us is given the chance to be recreated a new. So it was a very intensely time. It felt in a Musa sense as not just okay back to Elman we're going to learn with great renewed vigor. It was a time of of introspection of heightened introspection. By the way, I think you'll be surprised, but if I'm going back again when I was learning in Yeshiva, which was like close to 40 years ago, maybe drop less, drop more, but but the it's true that you didn't have the same intensity that that you're talking about over here from Bella Kaplan, but there was an intensity in the issue of time of there's no doubt about it. I mean, you can't say >> I think it is still true today. And yet we're missing this is the point people in a sense don't know how to channel that then those who are you know ver they're going to go and it's and they're going to give d better but in terms of was standing before you had which is about who you are as a person maybe we can change it it's the framework without the Muslim movement as a movement the framework is missing and that's what revol noticed because you mentioned before revol wasn't just one of the last great figures of Musa who unfortunately I was I missed the opportunity to hear him because even when I arrived in me he was still giving schmoo and then whatever I didn't go you know and >> way the reason that pushed me to go >> to hear every schmuzba in gau was I was once imagining to myself that my grandchildren will ask me saba you you live two doors two houses away from Raulba and you didn't hear And I was so embarrassed that I would answer them. No, I didn't. I listened to him that that pushed me as a baker. >> Your non-existent grandchildren shamed you into exactly to go. Okay, that's how it goes. So I I think he was the last great proponent of Muslim. He actually decided to do something about it in the 21st century before he came he comes along and he says Musa is still relevant. He founded Ba Musa and Gash different places, right? He tried to found this movement that people >> but he didn't just just say that it's relevant. He had the way of applying it and and verbalizing it. >> That's true. But we keep coming back to this point. He actually said no, you're going to sit in a room in the B mus and do exactly like said you're going to do you're going to with great vigor and passion. You're going to >> By the way, I don't think he was su successful. That's the point. He was not but he was successful in in you know in in in managing to to to give over messages of mus like content right but do you know what I lived in line for many years I know there was a bas I never entered right and the fact is if this would this is a sign of it you know as a middle of the road person over here it didn't re certainly didn't reach me right so so so in all so I think it's possible to say yes the old joke that the tunos muslim movement is They're heading towards the exit. Of course, Muslim teachings were there, but it's like a body without a soul. It's like the missing the engine over here. I think I think this it was a long slow fading of the Muslim movement as a movement. I know I was reading somewhere who was a great figure that I think >> he he used to be in the I used to see them came out every day >> going you know you know charging up. >> Who was he? Tell me and also Kelluk and he had a group of >> like if if you ever like try to imagine how the obvious looked >> that that you ever see a picture of Katsukan >> a grainy picture. No, was short, but he had this beard that probably reached almost till the floor >> and he had these like bushy eyebrows and he was like he looked like like the pictures like they they draw pictures of the he was like the holy person of the area. I think had this he had a kul and he was asked by that of what should we do? He says the mus is doesn't seem to have an effect anymore. So he said to the the following thing he said you think mus doesn't have any effect you think that's a new disease it's a very old sickness and he went on to explain how the whole system of mus worked and a very beautiful thing he says muser is like the novi compares the Torah to fire a black blacksmith needs to put the metal in fire first before he can shape it in the same way when a person is cold there's no way that Musa can mold him only after he said if the person learns Toro like with a Brent with in a fiery way totally committed after that you learn Musa when the human mind and the heart is heated up then it can have an effect but first of all it's a beautiful and very applicable thing today we say well Musa isn't having any effect you say the question is are you learning the way Raban said that was what he was saying but there's another thing he was saying is this the long slow demise of Musa is a very old story as well so so so I think that's what he was saying already 60 years ago. What actually happened to the Musa movement? I think it's pretty clear that we know that the world in which Musa flourished was it was a product of the Holocaust. It was destroyed. And as we said, the Torah world was that was Musa is in effect. When you have stage one, Musa is stage two. When you have the basics, you have the limitra, you have already the acceptance of the basics of the Torah, then you can work on the elite path which is internalizing. Once that went, it went as well. One person who chronicled the rise and then the fall of the Muslim movement we mentioned before was Rabbi Dov Katz who wrote a book called Tonatam Musa which is the definitive four or five or six volume chronicles of the Muslim movement going right from Salanta and his rebundant to the to to the postwar period and he says something remarkable Rabbi Kolinsky which I think we can probably conclude with he writes there in the introduction to no musa he says the following thing about the Holocaust. He began his landmark work before I think in the 1940s and he published it the first volume in 1948 and he says the following thing. I began the work in a different world where the Musa movement was chronicling a world that existed and I'm publishing it in a world that has disappeared apart from a few great figures. Now he says what happened with the Holocaust in contrast he writes to the horrors of humanity in our generation through which people who reached an advanced level of progress meaning the western you know Germany suddenly lost their divine image and became beasts of prey against that background the vast gulf has become apparent between Amistra's culture and that of others >> that's so true even today the high houses of culture in America Africa like the universities are the hotbeds of racism and of anti-semitism. >> Correct. A point so well made because I think it is so applicable that the he says like this specifically because of the collapse of ideas of human progress and we talk about today the progressives gave us the idea of woke which is some of the most degraded ideas come from under the banner of progress. You cannot get more of a retrograde than the people who speak of progress kind of they're bankrupted whatever remained of the western morality. You have you know children offered up like mole to medical deformity in the name of crazy ideas right and he says what he writes this specifically because of the collapse of ideas of human progress the light of Judaism's ethical teachings founded of belief in the living God on the love of fellow mind and elevation of mankind which is the only possibility rebuilding mankind. So this Muslim master, he saw the bankrupting of western secular progressive thought and he contrasted it with the true ethical progress represented by the Tyra. >> That's what pushed him to to chronicle the history of the Muslim movement. >> Correct. And all those decades after he wrote this work, we have yeshiva's full of we have is tremendous time of Rome. But I think there's still time as Ravula would have said it's time for Musa itself as a practical level two elite methodology of improving the human being. It's time to make a comeback. >> Thank you so much Dalia. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for listening to Behind the Times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time.