Eps 2. The Brisker Talmid Who Saved an Empire

Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in audas Israel or that Rafataly was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabias? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the Times dives into the big concepts and overlooked moments that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. This is Jewish history like you've never heard it before. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephraim Zalma Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. Let's begin with a story that may or may not be true. So sometime in the 1930s or maybe in the 40s, two very powerful personalities got into a car in London. One was the head of Shell the oil company, a British government minister, a wealthy Jewish aristocrat. This was a man called Sir Robert Why Cohen who was used to the head then of the United Synagogue who was used to leading the Rabbonim around by the nose and controlling things. The other powerful personality and this man looked like a very powerful personality was Diansky known to British posterity as Dino Brsky and the story goes that Roberty Cohen got into the car first. He didn't look that the head of the London based in should get him first. He got a tap on the shoulder with a stick with a rabbitic stick. It was Dabsky. Dabsky said, "You get it. I get him first." Now that story of Fry Zamagalinski may or may not be true, >> but that is a perfect story to exemplify who Rascal was. But you'll have to explain to us what does the United Synagogue mean? How does British jury structured? Because you have to say the truth. An American classical American listener will not understand anything about the whole structure cuz there is no there is no structured congregation, Jewish congregation of in in America. Everything is private. So this is why the classical American listener is going to have to be hold on and uh and this is going to be the substance of this episode to understand and unpack the meaning of that story because that story is whether whether or not it's true exemplifies who was and defines to my mind one the one the great Gdelim of the 20th century and what he did or was a self-made godle Right. We're going to see in another episode two of this series that he was largely basically raised himself before come to Yeshiva. He became a godle without them. He was a self-made godle who went on to become a talmid of bris of of brisk >> at later stages in life. Not asshiba. not baka who went on to stand up become one of the last leading rabbon in Russia and continued to defy the communists after the communist takeover won the last great Rabonim there who therefore stood up to Stalin ended up in Siberia and then was in in the 1930s appointed the head of the London which was that time a very very koshv seat half a million Jews and if essentially the head of the basin of the British Empire uh as it still as it still was then and this is where I come to the crunch and this is in terms of the definition who he is and what he's going to be doing. He was such a powerful patra personality that he was able to stand up in the in the face of the liberalism that was taking over Britain. The Jewish liberals were talking about the reform that will threaten to engulf British jury in the same way as it eventually did in the America >> which is fascinating that British jury is the only jury that managed to block the reform from entering the official rabinet and that's what you're going to be talking about >> and this is correct and this is the contention I'm going to be quoting my father John Gutenag who was who was a senior member of the what was then the United Synagogue Gabinet um in England and it's is something that I've absorbed from him and I want to develop this thesis that it was this uh very very strong role played by Donna Brmsky that's standing up in the 30s and 40s and stopping the tide and turning things back and enabling as it were this blocking movement on the reform. So if if I had to get >> which is aish to itself that one person managed to change the tide. >> You know it's it may be overselling it. It may indeed be overselling it. But if I had to give this particular episode a title I'd say Dramsky the godle you know who saved an empire. That may that may be it maybe there's too much of a literary flourish. We we hear that general streak out of >> the you can't you can't encourageable you can't irreressible you can't hold a journalist with a headline is unstoppable. >> So that is my contention. I'd like to unpack that. As you say you we're going to need to go gently for the rest of the world for the global audience over here to understand just what it is why we get getting hot under the collar about a god in England in the 30s and 40s. I think just to take this away, we need a bit of just a very short background ex who was and we're going to actually be unpacking more of this in the second episode which is relevant then but it suffice it to say that um the theatkll was he was born in a little village and I think most important thing to know about this village there wasn't even a minion there but again we're going to get to that labramsky was born in 1886 lived in 1976 and he was born in a place near Bellarus which is now Bellarus called Dashkovichi or something like that. You Dashkovichi or something like that but okay you have to be a native or a local to really pronounce these things. His parents were were good people but they were far from rabbitic stock. He had a shass at home which was not a usual thing but and I think this is the most important thing to know about him frime he grew up in a village with aettle when you talk about I don't think you can get any more of aettle than this because it didn't have a minion it didn't have a minion and he stayed there till age till age 17 by which stage I don't want to give all the all the details away but by which stage he had become enough of a godle that when he was headunted very literally by the way by by noadic when they came to hear of this illloy boy learning on his own in this outlying village. They brought him to Nadok and he ended up going very rapidly through the yeshivas within a year of arriving in yeshiva. He had sma from >> he was of noar >> no. So this gives you an idea. This is an intensely unusual path for a godle to take. No minion, no nothing. He is there the self-made godle. By the way, spoiler alert, that is the title of basically of the of the second episode. So we're not going to go too much into that. But what happens? He becomes the rav if I'm not mistaken of of Slutzk. Now Slutzk is a very Kasha Rabinut because >> that is a jump. What you just did now is a jump because you jumped the stage that he he got married to a Kasha R's daughter. That Kashbar RV in turn was the son-in-law of the Ridbaz who was the R of Slotsk. When the ribbas left Slutzk, he gave the Raonus over to Suzalman who is Rashiva in Slutzk. And when Suzman left Slutzk, it went back to the family and went to Rascarski. Akaskar became the RV of Slutzk where his wife's grandfather was the original RV and that's where he was taken to Siberia under Soviet. So as we said before he defied in Stalin's time teaching as a ma major visible postrav there in Slutzk and his in this storied rabbinet and so we're not going to get that much into uh the the the whole parish of of what he did in Soviet Russia why he escaped. Suffice it just to say that when he was eventually released, he'd become extremely extremely high-profile, internationally well-known Rav and clearly one of the biggest rising stars in the GDM of of young Gdylam. Then he was he had to leave behind his children. I think couple of his sons instead of as including one who was called Shiman and >> who became a communist. He became a Jewish communist. >> Correct. And if if if I'm not mistaken, he was one of the founders of the of Britain's Communist Party. So he was a Stalinist supporter, at least a supporter of the regime. And he was in fact Dramky was extremely sad because he was be he was clearly even in Stalin's time, it was too much for the regime to they didn't want the fuss of of of you know killing or incarcerating anymore such a famous Jewish figure. So they let him go. They basically expelled him with and kept his sons at least Shimon and perhaps another one of them as a you know security security of guarantees of good behavior. there of Haskell shouldn't be speaking out against >> should speak out against the regime and he came and Shiman in fact was you know tragically he and he used to say during Dabramski said in those years he was heartbroken by the thought that his son who was so you know shaky in his Yiddish was there in this terrible regime a land of of of cure I think it was I think it was Rush Feinstein who said who compared the Soviet Union to a giant basis a giant toilet he said this is country in which you cannot mention God's name. So I'm not mistaken. He said it's like it's a that's why he said he had to get out of it. There's no it's a a country like that you cannot live in. However much mysterious nephesh the kafir in it is is so so strong. It must be said that there was eyewitness I I I might be able to remember his name that he saw the interaction between Bransonsky and this son Shim later on in life when Shim is coming to visit his father and he says and the kerva between and his son which was warm then he was even learning with him by the way and uh it didn't it didn't cause a rift between them. So yes, I I in fact saw saw a report about that someone from the I don't I don't recall who now was in came to Abaka came to learn and after again jumping the gun but he eventually comes to learn move and he's a Rav from the early 1930s to 1951 in England raving that basin of London and he then he comes to the last quarter of century where he becomes one of the leaders of of world in fact then and he was a very very powerful personality it's important to say if you ever seen a picture of Khatlabsky You will see pictures don't lie because you see the sheer power of the personality there. There was if you just put into the internet you're going to see you know Google search Dina Bramsky you will see phrases like the giant or or the massive personality and I know my grandfather Oliver Mr. Max Mel Gutenag was you know he said that he was wasn't a big man it was a small a short man but a powerful presence >> his presence was when he walked down the street you couldn't ignore him I even sent you a color video which was rare for those years of him walking down the streets of Israel with his lul in by master where he lived and anyway but the point being that as you pointed out over here there was a softer side this baka said he he you know he said he came in to this to to to to visit Dana Bramsky who was a legend to any British baka. It was learning in Ara you had to go and I mean to to go and visit Dina Brmsky and he was involved in cultura teaching cultura gave a share there at that stage and he came in and he saw that Dina Brsky was sitting there over a gamora with somebody who's sitting there without a yamla. I mean that must been an incredible sight to see the god Lador sitting there learning something without yamoka. was Shim Abramsky and the son and this was the way that they that they as it were bonded his the rakmonos that his he wanted to keep like ahead of his time perhaps this wouldn't be surprising anymore you know you know people are very much you know keep try and keep people with him but the sight of Dina Bransky learning with someone learning gar some of that yamoka that is an unbelievable thing his that was his softer side >> you mentioned before about that the uh the his mere appearance was of power like a lion like >> so I I I I I read a story somewhere I don't remember the exact source that uh you you'll be getting to this later on is that he once had to appear in court defending his policy that the the kash of the in England should be under the opices of the of his bezdon and they took him to court. I think that there's a Tim whoever took him to court and and Dian Labramsky walked in there and against protocol he stood up in front of the judges which is you know unheard of in in England you know the the whole decor of you can describe that for the listeners >> with their wigs right with the white flowing wigs and he said I want you to I want you to know that if I give a on this meat I am defying my role as a pisk and a role as serving the public which is against democracy and I am not willing to do that and the judge wrote in the plin says we're not accustomed to this but the old lion roared in our courtroom and he's right >> wow that is I didn't know the old the old lion thing I've seen that used as title I didn't know that's where it originated I think this is going to be a very crucial part of the story here his character Because it's not enough to have vast Torah knowledge if you if you don't have a thermime and b the rocklike uh the rock-like and unmoving power and strength of personality to stand up to what's opposing you. You wouldn't you won't achieve anything. And this is what the crucial qualities. Not only was he one of the undisputed Gdali Israel, he also had this tremendous power of personality that enabled him to achieve what he achieved. Now, let's get into that and and understand the context. We got a bit of context to understand. Number one, something I've quoted before, which is the context. We know all over all over the world talk about the 1930s4s. If you went across Western Europe and you went to and you went in in America, the the Torah world didn't exist then. was a a few you know we talk about or even orthodoxy was very shva in England or was more more accurately Britain together with its you know its empires you had like what's happening in America >> sorry for the amiratis >> to explain to us what's the difference between England and Britain >> okay so so until this very day you have when you talk about Americans like talk about British right so great Britain is composed of different countries confusingly there's great Britain then there's United Kingdom. So let's just talk about the United Kingdom, right? Which is composed essentially of four different countries. You have the country of England, which is the dominant part of the country. Uh most people, most money, most of the of the land mass. Then you have Scotland. There's enormous to the north. Then you have Wales and you have back in the day 100 years ago, you had Ireland, now only Northern Ireland because they made the rebellion and they they shut it off. But that is considered that's the United Kingdom. But at the time the British Empire was and this is really important because when Dina Bramsky was the basin of London which is an officially which is connected to the United Synagogue is the basin of the United Synagogue which is the group of synagogues of Schul which are Orthodox and they comprise they're recognized by the government. So the chief rabbi of the United Synagogue has a basin which the London basin which is essentially recognized as an official representative of the Jewish community until this day. And back in the day around the time that Diansky was the dian there, this was not a community of less than quarter million Jews. It was more than half a million Jews plus the countries overseas part of the British Empire. Then Australia, you had South Africa, you had New Zealand, you had other little places as well. Very significant Jewish communities who took their direction. >> All these communities were under the direction of >> correct. So for example, if anyone who knows South Africa has a very capable and special chief rabbi today, which is chief rabbi Warren Goldstein. Well, he was the first South African native as it was South Africanborn chief rabbi in the job until then. I remember I remember chief rabbi Sirill Harris who was an Englishman. In fact, I think he was a Scotsman if I'm not mistaken. Um I remember him. So he was the chief rabbi of South Africa. >> So when you say Britain, you mean the Brit British Empire. his >> when you're talking about England, you're talking about the country within the empire called England. >> Correct. But we use it interchangeably. If you grow up, at least in my time, we did not think of ourselves as British. We thought of as English and thought that the Welsh were also English and the Scots were also confusingly. The point is Dina Bramsky was appointed in 1931 or two if not to be the chief rabbi of the London basin which made him effectively the senior py or the pisk for the British Empire technically. That's what it would have that's what it meant. That's the context in terms of the the architecture of the community of the institutions. There's another crucial piece of context which is like when when you talk about in America, New York or anywhere else the Yiddish kite was very very in England you had the United Synagogue which is unique in that >> this is very important what you're saying there because you on the one hand you're saying that the official structure was was orthodox but the kamitsus beel was very weak. Correct. Right. You have to try to explain that to us. Why? Why isn't that a steer? Cuz if you would tell me that the Yiddish kite was when the official structure was, let's say, reform or conservative, I can understand that. But you're telling me that in England, this is the only place that managed to stay under orthodoxy till today. And at the same time, you're saying that the Yiddish kite at that time was at a low. So try to explain to this apparent contradiction. Let me just tell you just in terms of how low it was. start with that and I'll explain how that how that could be just how low it was. So there's a there was that one of the first battles that he had to undertake, Dana Brownsky had to to fight the fact that in shops or butchers that were selling meat under a London based in Ha they were selling meat without nicor right so without doing what was called porging takeaway taking away essentially the was the gdanosha in inside the in the high >> people were eating isoriza >> correct they were selling it in the same shop meaning it was kind of like nicer and non-nicer going the same thing in it >> if if you were observant you'd be able to choose lose kosher parts, correct? Or it it was just it was the wild west. It was the literally the wild west going on over there. And before he came in, he used the leverage. He he found out about it. He said, "I cannot take responsibility for this place." He said that a condition is to shut down these shops. So immediately even before he got into the job, he began his battle to you know to fight back and raise standards standards that that officially existed but but in reality didn't. Just one more mara mock what you know just to understand exactly how how difficult things were back in the day. So the the blade gurvitz who was who became rashivate said when he arrived in London in the 1920s he said he saw a fish monga wrapping fish and then he saw that the fish wrapping the the wrapping paper had he been writing on it. He was shocked to see when he went along he saw it was a terrible sight was kadesh this fish manga but the father was obviously a lambdan and the father had a son who was a fish manga who wasn't a shalam done and what a terrible thing to to see he just was rapping you know you talk about you know yesterday's news is to is tomorrow's fish rapper or whatever this was this was the case yesterday's were tomorrow's fish rapper >> so now you you owe us an explanation like how is this possible >> so how's it possible that that as you say you can have an an infrastructure that is officially orthodox but in reality is all over the place and in terms of practice is like in America reform whatever it was. So the answer is it goes back to and this is what the story we opened with that may or may not have happened with Sir Robert why Cohen. So, Robert Way Cohen was, as I say, a government minister. He was he was a, you know, involved, I think, in in Shell, the massively wealthy, and he was part of an extended family that controlled the United Synagogue for many decades. They this family came to be known as the cousinhood. The cousinhood. I mean, he really has a ring to it. What it was was old Jewish patrician families, very noble, very assimilated, kind of the the Rothschilds, the Montigus, the Samuels. Now, when we talk about the Samuels, so anyone who's who knows, I can see you gesturing. The first British high commiss commissioner under the British mandate over here was the Herbert Samuel. For anyone who is, you know, there's they have a chain of hotel upmarket hotels here called Herbert Samuel Hotels, right? and he was with >> as an an aside story >> I don't think it was one of the who said that he remembers the women in the nashim the shs in meim were crying when they heard that Herbert Samuel is becoming the high commissioner why is that it's the first time a Jew is becoming the governor of Isisol for over 1,500 years they thought it was Msiah Titan It's that good learned out from that. He says, you know, don't get excited so easily, right? I remember the old Yiddish mamas crying whenever it was, but at the end he was pressured from all sides and uh it didn't uh didn't help the Jews and soul too much. >> Correct. Well, actually, if you're talking about uh detours and so let me tell you about something that happened um the time that I met Sir Herbert Samuel's granddaughter. Listen to this. I tell you this one. It was quite a few years ago. Arrived in Svas and had the bright idea. I think it was newly married. Had the bright idea to to stay overnight just to write wash up at the place and find somewhere in the old city to stay. Well, it turned out we couldn't find anywhere to stay because it was the Klesma Festival. The place is cho blocks. Nowhere to no place to find nowhere to stay. We eventually driving around for ages. as you described the listeners that that's the week when the old the streets of the old city of are filled with with cles players. >> Correct. It's it's impossible. It's a three-day festival and there was no place to be had. We eventually found someone I think on in the old city of and we knocked and somebody said knock on this door. We knocked on the door. This people had this um you know one room to rent. We said fine. The lady was a breast level lady. Okay. And she she was she welcomed us, you know, as a breast of a couple. She welcomed us and she said and I said I noticed something interesting about the accent. It was both Israeli but very very very English. An Israeli who had traces of ext extreme English accent. And I said where do you get the accent? She said from my mother. I said where's your mother from? She said she was brought up on an estate outside Cambridge. I said what do you mean? She said, and this is a breast of a lady right in the intensely part, she said, "My grandfather was Sir Herbert Samuel." >> Wow. >> That is unbelievable. >> That is not that that >> you managed to surprise me. >> It was an unbelievable thing. I've since tried to track her down. I know where where it is. I've been past. She moved away. I have no idea what she's called. So, if she is listening, please we this is this this is your moment. Please come forward. This is an appeal for missing information. Getting back to this the cousinhood over here. Let me read to you to understand the context of which the lay leadership the Rabonim were orthodox and the people many of the members of the of the United Synagogue the bulk of Anglo jury as it was called was not was was in not not practicing meaning the shul that they didn't go to most of the time was was orthodox till and remains so today which which is our story >> they needed the orthodox rabbi for marriage I guess >> no but it was more than that it was more of a frame they wanted to be orthodox unlike in America occurs still today if you ask the you know reform exists in England but it's not the the mainstream which is the people who may look and practice uh basically unidentifiable that undistinguishable rather from reform essentially belong and will get married under an orthodox based in and and ro and let me read out to you an essay from the American commentary magazine that I found sometime n October and and and it's just this is is gold. It's worth it's worth quoting the difference and he's talking about the the difference between England and America and the fact that America if you don't keep if you're not Orthodox you're not orthodox you're reform in England you're going to have this strange situation where people are not observant yet the shu that they don't go to much is orthodox and so so whoever it was wrote this essay in October 1964 in commentary magazine he said like this the difference can be traced to the role of the old patrician angl Jewish families who founded the United Synagogue in 1870 as a Jewish equivalent to the Church of England. These families, the Rothschilds, the Montigues, the Samuels, etc. were rarely observant Jews, but they gave their names, money, and time in approximately that order to the United Synagogue out of a sense of duty. It was the thing to do for any English gentleman who happened to be. >> This is fascinating. They had to show the goyam that we too have a a system. >> You're so you're so you're so right because by the way until my father who was a rabbi in the United Synagogue he wore and still wears you know a rabbitic kapot frack what's a frack a frock coat right and and because the up to then it had been the practice in the United Synagogue that they wore what were called canonicals. canonicals are basically these dark black robes that look very much like the priest the church of England and that because one of the chief rabbis going back a while had decided to make the United Synagogue much more like the church of England and I tell you another thing I remember growing up in Manchester there were these there were the who who were raon in all but name what were they officially called reverend reverend like the church of England why would there be such a name because in the United synagogue you it was all aping this church of England situation very sad >> now why didn't they I understand the need I understand the need to create a institution which is parallel to the church all right but why didn't they create this institution under reform conservative maybe they weren't there at the time >> I think remember this is going back to the 1870s and let me just finish this quote over here because I think could help over here it said it was They gave their time to the United Synagogue out of a sense of duty. It was a thing to do for any English gentleman who happened to be quote unquote of the Jewish faith being more or less indifferent to religious matters. They had no objection to the nominally orthodox nature of the United Synagogue normally because they didn't demand >> since it wasn't for them. >> Correct. Didn't demand too much from them. So they could paradoxically enough. Therefore, the United Synagogue was for decades led by men who neither believed in its doctrines nor practiced its rituals. I mean, what an opportunity. >> No, what's interesting here is is that secretly people would respect if it it's not m they'll respect orthodoxy more than the watered down version of conservative. As long as it's not m doesn't demand for them much. They're willing to keep that as like the nominal umbrella. I think you have to understand it does say something about the British character. British character is a non-revolutionary character. Remember conservative conservatives conservative not the not the political party right it's it's just to conser correct it's something about the British character they don't like revolutions the last time they had a revolution was you know was they chopped off the head of a king was 500 years ago and they and they basically regretted it immediately so so the there is something conservative about the British character and as you correct it's it was all very nice and civilized they could you could orthodoxy was very very civilized ized they could build these enormous cathedrals of sh everything carried on that way. I think there is something about the British character in that. But the net effect then was that Danabramsky was coming in to a nominally officially orthodox environment but that was very hostile to too much piety. Right? That's another thing about the British. >> Here comes the big question. Here comes the big question. Why did they need Diana Ramsky? >> So good. And >> you tell me that they chose Lord Jacobitz, right? Or Rabbi Jonathan Saxs after I can understand that. I mean that's but Dabski is an old East European style RV. So we're going to come back to that to at least named Lord Lord Jakovitz in a minute because he was essentially it was only thanks to Dino Brsky's existence and and standard setting that he was able to come in over there in a sense. He was a Talmid. But why did they bring him in? very important question and the answer to that goes back to the fact that in in that the United Synagogue was not the only show in town from the turn of in in the in the ready in the late 19th century you had waves of Jews coming over from Russia like they came to Eric Israel like they flooded into the lower east side of New York they're flooding into the east end of London which is where the immigrants >> and these are more Hamiship Eden >> correct and they start founding they found other organizations today if you go to England you're going to find in London you're going to find three main botted din or three botted rather in London. You're going to find the United Synagogue based in London based in which has very on him till this day. You're going to find what's known as the federation uh which has also very on him you know full disclosure my my older brother is in their ranks and you're going to find the third thing which is the kadasia which many people know the ha that was associated with the padva etc. But essentially >> it's more it's more theim more. >> Yeah. Yeah, but it's more even it's it's Kadashia is is not just the it's also the echos of gold is green part of Kadashia, right? It was so essentially got these three bott you had the London based in which was affiliated with the United Synagogue recognized by the government which is the oldest. What happens? They come along and the newcomers start feeling that this the standards alone no anything >> they're not going to buy meat in a place that sells non- nicer meat. Even if at that time that wasn't the case eventually you see how the federation develops and it starts developing as a big network of synagogues of shs and then the kadas kadi now kadasia >> now the federation is like a separate unit >> totally >> but is recognized by the government >> well no the federation has no necessarily a standing it doesn't have a chief rabbi it has an a basin that that based in the federation today who was once the the ra of gates and before that was of If I'm not mistaken before that was another very who was my brother's father-in-law Denstein and um and then you had you had also very himw padwa great >> is there any official function that like the federation and the kadasu would need the United Synagogue to vouch for them like to >> not in an outright formal sense because the United Synagogue and its chief rabbi has standing with the ments on issues of wider orthodox importance, they he will go to the government, but it's more informal. That's my sense. He he's the biggest stakeholder there in the room, but he's not the only stakeholder, orthodox stakeholder. >> So, we're going back. So, we're saying so there there was an influx of of of immigrants, >> Eastern European, >> right? And they were taking away the uh the power from the United Synagogue. Correct. It's like in politics today, if a right-wing party, which is outflanked on the right by another one that's more right-wing or a leftwing party that's another one more to the left, it will inevitably um draw the larger party into its orbit. Exactly as politics works. The same way the Balabatim who the business people and the and the and the you know the men of influence who led the lay people who led the United Synagogue said we're losing we have we're losing we need a credible figure who can be listened to in Stamford Hill right which is the area which is a growing population. It wasn't it wasn't Stan Stanford Hill today but it was back then it was the east end of London which is now a Muslim area. And so they said, "Who can we get?" And they looked around. They saw Dina Bramsky. I think what they identified there was they saw this was a figure of of giant stature, but also a figure who was as it were who they knew was was going to take responsibility for Kalistra. >> So he came from Russia and he before he came to the London Bezen, he was a Ravul. I understand before that I mean his first stellar was a RV >> of a shul in the in in the east end which was the marika dashul now the marika dashul was again exist today in in gold is green it's got a wonderful young ro and it's I go go there bin as money man when I'm if I'm there with my in-laws in London and around the corner and it's got a very storied history because 40 years ago it moved from the east end of London which is right across London to northwest London right east end of London to north to to to northwest and the Rabonim there who headed the shul we're talking about 100 years ago we had two varonim before Danaramsky one of them was Rab Aba who was I if I'm not mistaken I don't remember one of the old old literature >> I I know his name because in the in a short biography written by Ditzky who was a very pois mentions ra as someone who disver discovered the leash in Europe and he used >> the leash the grandfather of the makub >> the first one who wrote like a like a tiny description a short description on the leash didn't know that right >> and so he Raa was succeeded when he was left after a few years he was succeeded as the R of Mikadas by none other than Cook Ram Cook who was stranded then in the first world war they couldn't >> he already moved from Europe from East Europe to Yafo >> he was ready of the Yafo. Yeah. >> Right. And then in World War I he was stuck in in >> so there on Marikad that's headed note paper they there you have or or you know it said during the war year the first world war that is uh cook was was the rav so he was then they had a few years in between many years in fact in between um and the next raft to come along was Dina Bramsky and he he comes along and then they the London basin say he's in town this is such a great person we can for strategic reasons and he's there installed as the head of the London basin now it's important to see to understand the context. Again, there's no visuals here in this podcast, but just to see the photo of the the the London Basin when he was in in in office there in his early years, you see the old style Dionim with their goatees and their spitz bods and whatever it was, right? English gentleman, you know, Tam but with a look of of an English gentleman and then Dan Bransky with his tall literature Yamukan, this long beard and and you see that was the the situation he was he was coming into. Now when you see when he left you see this is the revolution he made because what he was able to do is install Talmid Dian Rapaort and uh Dian Gnas and Dian Mosha Swift and uh Dian Grunfeld right who was the husband of Robertson Grunfeld and and that was part of the revolution that he made. So the ambitious retelling of of what he was able to achieve was comes down to that context. was able to come into a context in which the United Synagogue for all of its orthodoxy was in danger of slipping into liberalism for the simple reason that Sir Robert Cohen and people like him who led it and ablely abetted by the Jewish Chronicle which is the oldest Jewish newspaper in the world which is as they proudly say is always always leaning left and leaning towards reform. They wanted change and he stood in the way. >> It wasn't easy. I understand. >> Yet it was not easy for him to >> as as you described before he he laid down demands when he uh before accepting the job. >> Yeah, it was not easy to stand up to them. And I think I think this is where we get to the crux of the argument over here. Again, it's it's something there's no particular smoking gun in which you can say one moment in which you can say, "Hey, black and white, he saved the empire from going get reform." But I think there's there's a couple of things. What and and I think you start with the most important one, the Louis Jacobs affair. This is the really really really important thing where you see the la the lasting impact that Dina Brmsky had because after the Louis Jacobs affair was uh revolves around the the uh figure of Rabbi Louis Jacobs who was the deputy rav of monks shul right in in gold's green which is the mainstay of the ekasha community kaha which came from Berlin which is uh monks of monks from Berlin which is basically one half the mainstay of of of gold is green and he was the deputy ro there. He was also, I think, if I'm not mistaken, a product of of one of the gates of Kyle if I'm not mistaken. But anyway, Louis Jacobs was a very very brilliant scholar and he was seen as being on the way to take over as chief rabbi after Rabbi Broady if I'm not mistaken and he comes along to Rabbi Brody was a good you know Shamim or Rabbi Israel Israel Brody Lou Jacobs and this eventually you have to see what eventually became he split he was outed as holding beliefs that were not exactly orthodox and and the most important was that is not right. This was a man who was a heartbeat away from being the head of the chief rabbi. And this is what we're saying because of British jury's centralized nature. When you're chief rabbi, you control everything. That's it. There >> an impact on thousands. >> The impact on the whole of Brit everything finished. You would have that that would have been it. He eventually when he was outed in an enormous scandal it's just tied to you know the Louis Jacobs affair when his cover was blown when he came out and said no it's not to not shine etc he was forced out he founded his own movement called the msorti movement which is still exists in England morti is masi and it was at one time >> you have to differentiate the msi means that someone believes in it doesn't have the Right. Well, this is why it's such clever branding, Herb Fry. What was this clever branding? Because his pitch to the bulk of British jewelry was that you can have all the benefits of orthodoxy. He had the culture. Well, more than that, the benefits you can be basically you can be the real thing, but not have the problems. You could you could you can do, you know, that's the classic pitch of reform. But it was a latter-day reform. It was long after the heyday of kind of the peak this it was reformed by stealth by the back door and it was very effective and almost if I'm not mistaken my my father was telling me that you know Manchester which is I think in the 80s or the '9s they were a major a threat of a major takeover and etc. It could have this man with his charisma and his aerudition and his his pitch to British jury was that come we can ditch the old and you can stay you you'll still have the benefits of it. Imagine that. What was it that stood up to Louis Jacobs? It was the dionim of the London basin who he'd left in place who were telling me that >> was not there was no was not there but he was in contact with them and this would his spirit >> he was directing things from >> yes I don't know whether it was was you know that I'm sure there must be correspondence but there was never any doubt that these these >> what years are we talking about you're talking about the late 1960s >> in the 60s this was when it was and so this was as if you if you like the smoking gunner which you see this was how Dina Brmsky comes comes along and he ensures it was not the balabatim. The lay leadership would never have done anything. In fact, they wanted it. They this was something they could have embraced because they were so the Yiddish were so attenuated anyway. It was his spirit hovering over British jewelry and and the strength that he gave them because his talum remember these Rabon and these donim he brought them in instead of the old style reversion who were from Mir from Bananovich you know Gdali is in their own in their own right. This is an important accur that aside being a dine in his own right, you're saying that he he managed to cultivate a whole team of uh people to success him. Correct. He brought in to the heart of the United Synagogue instead of just sitting around in inside the communities there of of Stanford etc. And perhaps in gold's green is he was able to because he was in in Israel you're going to call it mami right there's a figure a statesman's light figure a figure who truly believe he truly believe >> he saw an odle who was willing to be at the forefront >> correct but no but it's it goes from I think goes beyond then he was an oddle and he was willing to be at the forefront but he engaged with the main institutions of Anglo jury you know let's say in a certain way you're going to find a similar thing with Revelash as well over here was people don't some people don't like to remember it. He was a d on the rabbanut. The rabbanut like it or not is a powerful state sanctioned body and he and's pitch was we cannot leave this massively powerful organization to run things without without the Torah being there at the top at the top table having a seat. In the same way, Dannky said, "We can't just leave the London basin with all its power and and the vast majority of Anglo jury without the top team there, without the top tur personalities around." So what he was able to do was you saw him in the Louis Jacobs affair that he changed the nature of the Rabonim who were then able to stand up. >> The ones who ones who blocked him were the members of the Bezdon, not not the the members of the official rabbin. >> No, but they they lead and again they lead the ravenut, right? the dionim and this is one of the anomalies I think we've talked in previous episodes the anomalies of British jewelry is that the kosher rabonim are called dionim right anyone who knows danduna and and dianroy they're technically dionim but there's many kosher in England in America they're certainly not the case the top rabbon are not called dionim and that's because of this thing because >> so every everything was in institutionalized everything came from the structure of the government >> well it's not everything was institutionalized and therefore the powerful rabbonim and the kush raon and were the heads of the of the botin the various botin that's historically why it's been the case but what he also did as part of this thing he was there created because he was identifiably a god of Israel he was identifiably a giant Torah figure identifiably linked to those worlds of first of Eastern Europe then of Israel right and he was in correspondence of Aaron Cutler he was with the briskarov etc as we're going to see the next in the next episode but he was able to bring and support support from inside the Jewish the British Jewish establishment able to support the growing Torah community. very much encouraged Bahim to go off to to to this talk lately that the society is I recently heard Jonathan Rosen talking about this at a podcast that the society in is growing so much >> they can't be look at the their role as just saving themselves but like what do we have to offer to the the general republic and you're saying that Ramsky is like the light in front of the of the nation showing how you can take this tremendous msira and change society general society in England. Correct. In other words, he refused. He said the Torah has to be there uncompromising and leading from the front of the mainstream institutions that are associated in let's say many kared's mind and many very different from people's mind with kind of the the you know the people who are who too modern or too or drifting away he said no they need leadership we can provide it as well and in that I think that's the story that he was able as a gul to come and as it were to save the empire. Beautiful. Thank you for listening to Behind the Times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time.