Eps 11. A Pesach history of blood libels, from William of Norwich to Tucker Carlson

Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in Aguras Israel or that Rafatramsky was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabias? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the times dives into the big concepts and overlook moments that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. This is Jewish history like you've never heard it before. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephraim Zalma Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. A few weeks ago, former mainstream conservative media star turned anti-Israel obsessive Tucker Carlson made an extraordinary claim. The Kabad is a shadowy force pushing the Trump administration towards war. There are key players involved in this war, Carlson said, who believe that what we're seeing will usher in events that begin with the destruction of the Dome of the Rock and Alexa Mosque and then the rebuilding of the Third Temple. This has been going on for a long time, he added with his in his characteristic high-pitched voice through in part the efforts of a group called Habad. Naturally, a Kabad spokesman reached for a very old term in response, blood liel. There was no blood in Carlson's accusation, but the structure, the logic was unmistakable because this this may be the most striking and most mainstream return of this old idea. Blame the Jews. The shadowy Jewish networks are pulling the strings behind the scenes of non-Jewish society. That Jews are not just different but dangerous, hidden and controlling. Actually, in today's climate, Tucker Carlson's comments weren't even the most explicit. In a British seaside town, an exhibition by a former newspaper art critic has drawn outrage for imagery depicting Jews as grotesque, blood soaked, even demonic figures. Your local police in the last few weeks have confirmed they will take no action. So we're not dealing with fringe whispers anymore. We're watching something re-enter the bloodstream of the public discourse. So let me ask you Fry Zaman Galinski. Are we witnessing the return of the blood label? >> It's very interesting when you describe Tucker Carlson's uh claim. You can see a pattern when you look you learn the history of the blood labels. You can see a pattern that all the concepts are there. Like let's take Tucker Carlson's thing. It's true that Kabat talks about Mashiach, right? And it's true that Mashiach involves building a Bos and that involves removing the mosque from but the connecting threads >> to what's going on today >> that they don't have any proof for. It's just like >> and it doesn't exist. >> It's just like it's they throw in all these concepts and mashem and we'll progress with this podcast. I'm going to show it to you later on that in at least in the bailis case the blood >> mental balis blood rival much later in the 19th century >> you see that the people who were leveling the accusations they had a lot of information and they were throwing it out right and left but there was so much amiratus there just was just like >> well it's amiratus and it's evil amoratus I would say and I think let's set up the grand you're correct in this let's set up territory ahead for this episode in this prep episode I want to step back and ask A few questions. First of all, where did these accusations actually begin? What was the original moment when Jews were first accused not just of being different, not just of being evil, but of committing ritual evil? Ritual slaughter. That's number one. Number two, I think it's important to know kind of the these giving things away. This was the time the rashim, how did the rashim who actually lived through these accusations, how do they understand and respond to them? what if anything do we have traces of their response? And a third, I think it's an opportunity to talk about a very striking insight that I think can reshape how we think about the anti-Israel and anti-semitic distortions around us today. I want to get that weighing in. >> But I want to ask you a question and we have to make a differentiation. I mean goyam have been hating Jews since mira right >> as in fact the garor says >> and yeah >> right so and we know of the crusades >> y >> and we know of pogrumps now not every time that there was a blood liel are we talking about a case of accusing the Jews drawing blood out of the body of a Christian boy whatever it is to use for Pesak there could be many other accusations like Tucker Carlson right Tucker Carson is not talking about actually >> correct and that is why >> now that's my question is where did this because we both found from the rein talking about a similar case of a blood liel but there again it was not talking about a case of drawing blood from a child so the question is where did that start >> okay so I think Just to frame our discussion, obviously there's an element of wider thinking here in associating Tucker Carlson who doesn't talk about Jewish blood, but he talks about these kind of, you know, Jewish conspiracies, Jewish power. That's not a blood liel. But it's accurate to understand that, you know, not to nitpick. This is not about blood where the Jews uh, you know, because I I remember a teach one of my rebay in school describing in in England describing how he had gone through um what in America they'd call it public school actually in public school in England means a private school, the opposite meaning, but he'd gone through in in non-Jewish school. And he said this was a standard thing when the non-Jewish boys wanted to mock and taunt the Jewish boys. I don't know how many there were of them, but I he said they would say you killed our lord. That was a standard thing. And and not only I I distinctly remember him saying that they felt his head for the horns because the Jews was meant to have horns because for the entire thing and these tropes, these ideas and arrive >> Michelangelo, right? That's what it's >> correct. Correct. Michelangelo is a portrait of Mosha and I've s if I remember correctly outside the Krakco or one of the big cathedrals in there's a reproduction of that in one of the big outside the big Polish cathedrals you can not having been to Italy you can see this huge thing and there it is with these horns sticking out but anyway so so getting back to my question where did it start that story or that that accusation that they're using blood that's my question >> so let's just say like this when we talk about blood liels really it in it it incorporates a a variety of different things each of which started at different points and can be pinpointed more or less. One of them I think we can divide it up. What do you call ritual murder? And this is going to be very important. Jews murdering Christians as part of a religious ritual or right ritual murder. We're going to say we can see in a minute. We're going to see where it starts. But I think important to understand this the second category that you also have that blood liel. The idea that not only do Jews kill Christians because of an act of religious worship, they actually use their blood to make matas. And that's basically the a different thing. And there's a third element which u once the first two kind of became established and they work kind of hand in hand because you can imagine but once that becomes established then there becomes a third trope out there third cannard which is a host desecration in the Catholic form of Christianity there's this idea they eat what's called the wafer wafers is meant to be embody in the in it theo ish you know yoski is meant to be and when you eat it some of his spirit goes into it not that we need to go into much of this things but it's important to understand where this came from. And therefore they said that Jews were seen stabbing these wafers right I don't think it means like a you know man wafer with you know filled with lemon or lemon or cocoa or chocolate a wafer bread and they will cause damaging or torturing the wafer but the wafer is yashki and therefore unbelievably Jews were accused of this and violence ensued because they tortured a piece of bread. You see the derangement of the medieval Christian mind. Those are three different things and they'd come back in different periods. Well, let's start with this idea of ritual murder slash blood liel because it begin >> that's where the term comes from. Right. Right. So that's that's what we're trying to find. >> And the it begins in as ever as all great things do in England. England gave birth to the industrial revolution. The internet was invented by a British man. Lots of good things have come from there. But if you look back into the 12th century, >> including Gdalia, >> including Yes. none other than the man behind the microphone over there, I was indeed invented there. And um 1144 on the city of Norwich. Now Norwich is in important for American listeners. N O R W I C H. It's written Norwich, but it's pronounced there's there's a silent letter. It's a Korean over here. Norwich. Norwich is in the is on the east. It's it's it's poking out in the bit bit of eastern England that pokes out into the into the sea. North Sea is called East Anglia. And in fact, it's very interesting. I was just thinking about that before coming on air over here because the when you talk about the Ronin call England as initia, >> right? There's a Anglia. Where did that term come from? So, it's very interesting. In England, England is uh is ang means narrow. It's a narrow country, right? It's England. But and we talk about Anglo-Saxons. Angle it comes from there were a Germanic tribe who invaded uh you know in one of the many invasions and they were the angles and they were from northern Germany was called Schlesvig Holstein today. They were that's where the original Angles came across and then but somehow Anglia where they settled on the northeast on the northeast part of basically of England that's the only bit of it still called Anglia. It's very fascinating to know and >> by the go >> by it that's the name of the area East Anglia. It's actually on the maps and and Anglia itself div divided into a number of historic counties. Norfolk was the place the north the folk develop is settled in the north and then there's suffukk right and there's and it's all said something very interesting. So when we talk about Anglia >> we're not talking about England. We're talking about Anglia from that because you're saying England has a different meaning to it. England you're saying is now >> no there's different names because they're different names. There's the but when we talked about Anglia it is his the whole as referring to the whole who were part of the Anglia includ who lived in Yorks which is not in that area right which is central England. So I'm just pointing out that it's interesting that the historically there is a record of the way that that that our makuras label this country the ballet called this country there is a record in this historic county area called east anglia anyway Norwich something happens there in 1144 what happens there's an is an important Jewish community living there and now it's important bit of background because who is important the background is to understand that this is a Jewish community in the 12th century the Jewish community was essentially a French Jewish community because earlier 1066 this is a date that every uh English uh school child used to know 1066 in Rashy's time the Duke of Normandy uh invades Normandy the area of on the western part of France invades England se seizes the throne defeats the English king and becomes king the king of England known as William the conqueror okay he brings a cross with him the French the or the Norman nobility and for the next 200 years the nor and to the Norman no ability of French speakaking it takes them about 200 years to integrate and to become English right and during that time what happens is they are still connected remember England is ruled by the man who who's the juke and the overlord of the area in France on the coast ex im immediately opposite it so there's both sides of the channel are held by the same man, the same dynasty, the same family and naturally therefore the Jews who are living in the area of Normandy come across the channel in repeated waves when you need a RV. the French Jewish community living in England, huds thereof, they don't go to a local grown boy who went to localisha, none of which exist they call her off from uh from >> France and that's what happens and that is why these communities in the time the 12th in the 12th century basically are living under the protection of a royal castle which would have been something that William and his descendants have built. In fact, in Norwich, there is still today the castle built by William the Conqueror. In literally in the shadow of this castle under royal protection was the French Jewish community living in Norwich in England, right? Or French speaking, let's call it. And that is where the blood liel or or where the charge of ritual murder happens. And this is the first >> the first this is the first one because from this one actually happens over there is that there's a uh a boy William who's later neighbor um you know canonized as St. William of Norwich. He's a boy of I think 11 or 12 and he disappears and a charge of murder comes because what happens is the boy's family and the local towns people who are obviously primed by this must remember this the age of the crusades right this is a time of the crusades the 12th century between the first and second crusade the the Christian fervor and the frankite the Christian frite of the European and English population is at fever pitch they're willing and able and ready to go off at a moment's notice to sell their life's belongings and to go and to and to and it's in the same level of religious fervor that we see amongst jihadists today. That was Europe, Christian Europe back then, right? So it's no wonder that the good Jews living there are tittering. They're shaking with fear and stuff happens every so often. And one of the one of that bit of stuff is this accusation. So what happens over there? So even before this accusation I understand for what you told till now is that they were afraid in any case from from from crusades going to do them and that's why they lived near this castle correct we already seen that in the first crusade right which is 50 years before this happened first crusade in Germany the terrible events in the rhinland remember Christian Europe is a large area but in a way before it became divided between Catholics and Protestants on the reformation information hundreds of years later yes there's different countries very different countries that can fight each other France will fight Germany Germany will fight England France will fight England and but they have one faith and therefore ideas and this is very crucial to understand ideas spread very easily between one and the other and this is what's going to happen because let's just finish this episode over here what happens over here is a monk called Thomas of Monmouth is basically writes a very long book in which he called the life and miracles of St. William of Norwich. Basically, he was saying that they that there had been exactly what had happened to this boy. He was uh you know, he was throttled to death and then he was killed. Now, what happens is the local sheriff who is, as you can see, the French influence, his name is John Deznney, right? So, Chzn could pass for an English name today, but duh. He shows the, you know, that that that's already a French thing. He says that the court has no authority over the Jews who they wanted to summon to trial for this this type of thing. And that is more or less what happens. The actual incident ends that there's no massacre and there is no there's no killing but there is an accusation and it's the first time in medieval Europe that this idea that Jews are going to murder Christians part of a ritual has taken place. >> So had this play out that they were that there was no killings at the end? Well, that would have been you see the strength of the Norman of remection. >> But now that protection does not last or is is contested because for the next 50 years things get gradually worse. We know if you look in the time, this is 1144, 45 years later, we have something very very famous in 1190, right? The York massacre. What is happening is Richard the Lionhe Heart of England who by then is amazing actually. People know him as Richard the Lionhe Heart in England, but he actually was a French-speaking king known uh I think his kurillion. That's where it comes the the hearts of a lion. Why do I bother with a trala French? Because that's actually what he spent. He spoke he wasn't an English king in that sense. He had been he was descendant of William the Conqueror, but this was a French-speaking king and all his court was still French and >> they resided in England. >> They resided in England and had done so for a century and a half by that stage. And what in fact happens is in 1190 in the same year as York what we obviously know that Clifford's tower 150 Jews are besieged and killed in Clifford's Tower in the same year the Jews of Norwich are murdered in their homes and some managed to flee to the castle. So you see >> so it reached them back at the end. >> Yes. What has happened is in the intervening years we find again it's important to get this 1144 the Jews of this was the case of the case that we've begun with 1168 there was there was accusations of blood liel or ritual murder in Gloucester in 1168 in 1181 the town of Ber Edmunds right and in 1255 which is a century later you have in Lincoln right not Abraham Lincoln just Lincoln the case of little scent hue, right? Isn't that so heartarking? You can understand how this type of imagery is working because just to come along, think about the dynamics of it. Just to come along and say, well, the Jews murder a Christian. That that is very wicked and very dark, hates the Jews in particular in a particular light fashion. But think of the resonance. Think of the PR value of saying little sent you. the blood of which upstanding Christian would not boil to hear how they're slaughtering the kids. Right? And notice the parallels today to come along and say what is it that gives the Gaza cause again and it's again the Palestinian cause the suffering of the children of the kids right we had a year or two ago the blood literally do you remember that the blood liel another blood liel the idea the starving kids right the starving kids who were who were proven to be in Italy they'd had they had bad illnesses nothing >> allowed to go out by the Jews >> out by the Israelis again the blood label is always so much more effective when it's the kids when it's the children and that's a very important thing now frame I just want to test one particular thought on you which is what do you think it's an interesting thing we have the figure of this this priest Thomas of Mummoth who comes up writes this whole you know this whole this whole terrible blood liel and he he's the one who manufactures it against uh in about St. William of Norwich. It was an interesting thing. He was the original there's a parallel happening today which is the ability to come along like the YouTubers who will come into I don't know Lakewood or something today and say you know the Jews they're taking all the money and they're taking all our property and they're despoiling the Christians etc. Think of it in those terms. back then the written words when was very powerful in that way and that's what Thomas of Mmouth does he comes into he comes in and he investigates the case he get intrepid reporting he's not going to be denied the truth he's going to just ask questions the questions that no one else dares to ask and that is the same dynamic obviously not to paint to you know not to create parallels where they don't exist not this is not perfect license you see the dynamics again and again that You could just the power of the word, the power of just asking questions and the power of just doing some reporting, especially when that reporting is skewed and false. >> No, especially I'm going back to the point that I said before that you'll always be able to find like bits and bits of information that fit into the narrative of of the of the those accusing of the blood liel. You're always going to find uh people talking about Messiah. You're always going to find people talking about the wish to rebuild the B mikdash and that for the listeners is enough of a proof because that's part of your narrative and you're proving those points but the connecting dots that is the and that you don't find proof for that's where we have to attack them. >> Correct. And and I think you're it's interesting what you're saying it's enough proof for the listeners and that's because the people who fall for this want to hear this stuff. It falls on very fertile soil for them. they're already suspicious of Jews and then somebody who's just asking questions, who's just doing the reporting that no one else will do. They haven't been silenced by the corporate media or the whatever it is, he's going to provide it and then that's what they want to hear. And so it's always a question I think with the blood labels or these what I call this blame the Jews, the blame the Jews dynamic is you got to look, it only works when the society is predisposed to it. a society that is fundamentally not you know against that and is fundamentally tolerant for hundreds of years in England it would have been a laughable idea this type of thing or across the west and we have to ask ourselves what has made the soil oh so that's the question I want to ask you that >> that we understand that in Nazi Germany for instance right so we know that the economy was was deep in trouble at that time >> and when the economy is deep in trouble that's fertile ground that that you're looking for right uh But my question is where's the soil in Europe in the medieval times that you were talking about? >> What is it built on? Is it built on e economic stress? Did they have it that at that time? I don't think that was the uh I think it was more like a religious feeling of uh of going to the Holy Land and all that. I think that was the trigger of this whole thing. >> Un unless I'm mistaken. I don't know. I didn't I never heard that there was like economic stress at that time in the in in England. >> As ever, I think the answer is a combination. I think you're right to point out the the fertile soil was overwhelmingly Christian, right? And it's not for nothing. We're going to see that it's much as perhaps you're going to mention soon that it's that the blood liel persists into the 19th 20th century Davka in Eastern Europe right where the church that was unreformed where the Russian Orthodox Church was immensely powerful and it was underpinned the Tsaris regime and the whole system of government in a way that had not been the case in Western Europe for many un that there are two cases of blood labels. There's one case which is the religious blood liberal that you're talking about now that comes from Christian uh you know background and then there's let's say Nazi Germany which was has nothing seemingly had nothing to do with that. So you're cor you're correct in saying that they seem to be different things and this anti-semitism has long been pointed out as a shape shifter and when a particular form of anti-semitism is discredited it will morph into something that you that's more polite, acceptable and polite society. Case in point is what's happening now. It's no you can't talk about racial anti-semitism like the Nazis. That's all discredited. You can't say Jew, In other words, you can't say Jews have an inherent disposition to to be, you know, to suck the blood of others. You could say though that in polite society, you can say, well, we're not anti-Jewish, we're anti-Israel. It just happens to be that everything they've accused the Jews of always doing, right? What a mikra. What are what are happens they accuse the Israel that is? And I asked someone this question, some an academic asked this question. If that's the truth, then why every Jew in the United States is held accountable for the Zionist government in Israel? Even a leftist, that's what I saw leftist progressive Jews in the United States who suffered on the campuses not because of their policy, not because of their guilt and tainted by association. Look obviously I think goes without saying that anti-semitism they have their in every behold they have their rational intellectual explanation but underlying it all is the sinner so is sinner hatred is doesn't discriminate but I think it's important to understand this the rich fertile soil on which European antise-mitism was built and the blood label came to flourish was the atmosphere of of antise-mitism engendered by the church the church had declared uh the Jews they said you killed our lord and that was all it took and that's what preached in their sermons every Sunday. But and this is the important economic thing has always been a component and it was present here as well from the very beginning because in each case Jews are often associated for protective reasons. What do with an ability what do they do? They go get close to the rulers. >> The economic factor came >> correct and here in here in English Norman England in the 12th century you have usurpers the outsiders. Remember most people look at the French speaking most people speak English and the Frenchies are the outsiders and the Jews are associated with them. It happened in York it happened in Norwich happened everywhere. Jews are associated with the power and the nitki massacus as well. The Jews were associated by the Ukrainians with the nobility and they were slow. I want to bring up another aspect and I don't and without aside from the idea of being associated with power, the the gentile governments did not allow Jews probably for the majority of the periods that Jews were in in Europe to engage in many trades. >> So they were money lenders. >> Exactly. And money lenders that in itself is a factor for anti-semitis and for liel. >> Absolutely. as soon as the in York it was a thing that soon >> aside from the nobility part it's the fact that you're having tons of go who owe money to Jews >> very dangerous precarious position to be in I think there's a there's a phrase here in the Israeli um politics they talk about the the concentration three words called heton shilton right wealth media and government go together >> I think just to backtrack a minute we're just to understand what happens happens in the we've focused a lot over here on William of Norwich because it's the genesis of it all is the where all incubates this entire ritual murder blood liel charge but what indeed happens afterwards you just check trace through the ages how it spreads through Europe and forces the rashonim to to intervene because what indeed happens afterwards you have as we said Glouester Bis ends Lincoln with its little St Hugh but it quickly crosses over to continental Europe right through 12th and 13 13th century and England in England there's a seminal date there's a cutff point for all of this in 1290 the Jews are expelled and so that's the end of the blood label in England because there are no more Jews left and >> until Masha Benis convinced >> Oliver Cromwell to let them in again let them >> and again the Jews are expelled from France in 1306 Spain in 1492 but right through and you can trace the blood label through them and we're going to in a minute talk about an important example of this among the rashonim in in in France. But we find that that as the Jews are expelled from Western Europe, where do they go? They go east. They go towards Poland, Lithuania, the Russian Empire. And there the liel persists all up to the case of and we'll return to this case in a minute after the restrain discussing the restrain's response the bailis affair in Kiev in 1911 >> which is a very unique type of a blood library because I think it was the first time there was an official court case with lawyers >> litigating lawyers and journalists and you know I mean it was weird because it was so it was excuse me if I ever saying it was so stupid and So like not logical. >> Mhm. >> And on the other hand, it was all like formal and judges and claims, accusations and lawyers and everything >> which gives you an idea of how corrupt and how anti-semitic and how baked in the blood label was, how soaked into the fabric of the Russian Empire. And well there's one more important date actually for mentioning frame the Kishv massacre because the Kishv massacre which was in the around the end of the uh turn of the 20th century I forget when it was exactly the Kishv massacre began with the blood label again and this was simply unbelievable that it persisted for so long it because it really went to the heart of Christianity whereas western Europe Christianity began to was reformed and it began to the church, a Catholic church lost its progressively lost its power. Obviously, there was lot part of that was the there was an Inquisition, all that. It lost its sway. The Russian Orthodox Church had a chokeold on society in general. Frame, I think maybe we can just discuss turn to the response what we know. We're talking we're talking about the blood liel which is capsuled in a ton of rabinam as a fast day in >> what happened then >> there's a uh I don't know if it was a village or a city in France you're going to have to help me how to pronounce it but in in the way that we I'm talking about it it's called bl this is beautiful it's anaka bl or the bl family it has to do with this is a classic case in which the rashim rashi the rashonim might uh uh make you know we pronounce them in one way whereas it goes like this it's the way it's pronounced is >> blah blah blah blah okay >> right the o i s is wah like that >> and the way the write it they write budin >> right but but look at this one if you everyone in yeshiva can tell you that in that you we learned through a ty and we learned through about the re may or lanch Right >> now if you get out your GPS and try and navigate your rout you will not find a place called Oanch anywhere in France right it is right and it's because the NS the nun shin right becomes >> it's like a little translation of the letters and not of the word not the sound it's not the sound correct it's beautiful and there's there's many >> so I'm not even going to try to repeat what you said but uh in any case is a very weird blood blood label over there because usually what we a blood label is based on a missing person. >> Yeah. >> And in this case, there was no missing person. >> What happens? >> What happened? Someone a Jew who used to deal with leather. I don't know if he was pre preparing uh shoes or preparing hide for claf or something. Whatever that was his job. And um he had extra scraps with him, you know, in his suitcase, whatever it was. And he was drawing water from a river somewhere. and some of his excess scraps of white shining leather fell into the stream where he was drawing water. and someone and and a some a slave of a of a a Goisha landowner uh was there also drawing water and he saw what he thought was a body of a child falling into the river and no one no one reported a missing child and that started a whole blood li blood liberal campaign and at the end of the campaign there were 30 Jews murdered in that town. I think that was the entire populace of the Jewish populace of the town. I think uh five or a few kids were left and they were they were baptized or something like that. I think that was the end of the the Jewish population in that town. That's what I that's what I I recall. And Rabin Utam declared a fast day for it. And one of the Rishai name Rabb Fry Mibon writes a safer about all the Tors that went through the times of the crusades. And he brings this under the title of and uh he records the events in his cafer which is called Seafer. And I think the one who put it out recently was I think a friend of yours. He's Mosha Hil the son of Byakov Hil. >> I didn't know. Okay. >> Yeah. He's the one who put out this this >> I don't know that a beautiful thing >> it's called safe fry me. So you're saying that the unique factor there was it was like Sherlock Holmes the mystery of the dog that didn't bark in this case it was the mystery of a child who didn't disappear and yet they managed to convict the Jews and I think the reason the speculation why is it that the Rabenuam created a fast over here and in fact raenutam quoting the modai says actually there's a mod the end of I think in which he says talks about the severity of or lack of severity of of tanicest in which you know there's all sorts is one of the more lenient tan in which you don't actually need to fast because of any number of reasons but he says you need to right because more severe says then tanesta which is an unbeliever >> he said more than that he said it's more severe than >> which is already is not like tanester >> so the point being why would it that's the question why would it have been treated in such a severe way some of the informed speculation has been that this was that what happened was involved the connance of the authorities. This is very important to understand. In 1144, William of Norwich, the authorities protected the Jews, right? In 11, >> this is the first time, this case is the first time >> 1171 years later, right, a few years later, it was a local nobleman who wanted to settle scores with various whatever the backstory was. He got involved. the authorities backed up the um the it wasn't just coming from the rebel it was the authorities were backing them up which was a a dreadful new president I think it's always been said to take it to to today you say you can have anti-semitism on the street but if the authorities support the Jewish community then it's could be seen as a different story and Rabutam indeed saw it as a different story if that's the correct reading of what went on over there where else do we find reactions among the rashim to this to this whole episode of blood labels. >> So we have from the early really right from the Taz on and the Taz is talking about the meaning is to drink red wine and the Taz says that there's sure a preference for red wine. What's the reason? Why do we have a preference for red wine? So the Taz says Right. So there's a preference to use red wine for lea in order to remember the zera of parro against the the killing the Jewish. >> So the red wine as we all know echoes >> the blood of the Jewish kids in Mitsar. And then the taz adds on a line which is like an echo. You can hear the echo of what was going on in Europe for so many generations. What is he talking about? That when you're using red wine that allows for the anti-semites to confuse that deliberately confuse that with blood and that's how the blood liels spread. So the taz is is allowing us not to follow the minig of using red wine on late sedite. Can I just add just a thought this counts to me as you talk Arab fry that no we the that's a taz right hund hundreds of years ago in the 19th century the 19th century the mish is written by where he quotes that taz now not every or one appears in the in the which is it's after all of and therefore if it's there it shows I think very clearly the continued relevance of this kashash >> that's a good point >> which makes a lot of sense because in the Russian Empire which is where the kav lived yes you had the meis trial you had kishv you had events that were alistan blood liels continue to be of hahikic relevance and significance >> that that's 100% true >> I think just one one more point on this uh before this particular thing I'm going to quote over here glatstein who's a wonderful speaker and kam who's I found something that he said he quotes something from kazal Episcam by Rashan Vertimer. Perhaps you know this uh this work and who in turn quotes this is already third hand a medieval variant that reads as follows. instead of saying pour out your anger your wroth rather on the It says pour out your love upon the go upon the nations. And apparently as we know this was something it is the most amazing thing in a society where they'd accuse Jews of drinking the blood of Christians against every tenant of of in a society in which we had to change at the seda red wine which isly preferable for white wine. Can you understand what it is to on that night the night of a very sensitive time? It's almost like Pesak or Easter time was a very sensitive time in the same way that today in the middle in Israel Ramadan is extremely sensitive time that the sec that the authorities do handle the ca in you know the security services deal differently with it with the Palestinians right it's because of very sensitive time Easter Pesak was an extremely sensitive time because of the likelihood of blood liels um and for that reason in that context how explosive it would have been to have this written to call for the wroth of of God against the destruction of the truth. So you have this incredible echo. This medieval hag god but which is couldn't be couldn't be more of a rejection or a total reversion an inversion of what it really means but they were forced to have this there. Okay. So from here we're moving to the relatively modern blood liel probably the last famous one which is recorded in in in records of of courts and protocols in the newspapers Hebrew Yiddish whatever you want Russian. And we're talking about the Mendel Balis affair. It's interesting that the uh if you go through the story itself, Abdalia, and I read so much about it, >> it's actually very very weird because the facts on the ground of that story were so clear to anyone who objective that it's astonishing that so many so much time and so much energy was wasted on such a crazy idea. So let let us give us this the background of the story. Okay. >> Yeah. What actually happened there? >> Okay. We're talking about a lone Jew who had the right to live in an entirely Goyisha surroundings. And this is Mendel Balis. Okay. >> Mhm. >> At that time you have to remember Jews were not allowed to live in any place in Russia, right? There was a pale of settlement, right? There was certain this is at the end of this Kufa but Jews were not living in that area with this took place. What was Mendel Bis doing there? There was a brick factory and he was he was uh the owner of the factory needed a uh a smart Jew to take care of uh of the office over there and uh he found mental battles to take care of this factory. That's why he was allowed to live in this area. Now the facts on the ground were very clear. This child that we're talking about, yeah, who was his body was found with many injuries and and his body was found bloodless without blood in it, >> drained of blood, >> was involved in a local fight on that same day with a child from a different family who had connection to the underground in in >> in the underworld like a mafia. >> Right. Right. And not only that, this child because he was involved in the fight, he threatened the one who was fighting with him that he was going to snitch to the uh authorities that his mother was involved in tax evasion, all kinds of things like that. And there were accounts of people saying, you know, what are we going to do with this kid? This kid is is threatening us. Okay, so you have all the facts on the ground. It all leads to one conclusion. Hold on. one killed another one and the Jew was blamed. That's essentially the summary of what happened there. >> Right? So, so what's interesting is that what are they accusing him? They're accusing him of ritual slaughter. Right? >> Now, it seems that there was enough proof people knew the ones who were instigating this whole thing. They was there was enough proof that Jewish law in general >> prohibits eating blood. >> That been established time and again. It was that was pushed. So they came up with another kdish. Okay, this is very interesting over here and you have to understand the situation is people don't realize this from the times of until the founding of >> with the other the were separate meaning there was not >> were not living together they didn't know each other well and that each one had was living in their own world and there was an echo of this is You know going back from some times of the villagy and what happened over here is like this the following the go said like this we know that in Jewish law proper there's an is of eating blood >> okay but this menal balis is from family >> right >> and comes from kabala >> okay and in cabala there you can find these concepts okay they're trying to make a differentiation >> wow so you They had to come they propagated this crazy idea that it was basically aided thing. >> Exactly. That was a big fear among the >> Yeah. >> especially I think that sort of at that time was that that if they succeed in separating the on this it's going to be a terrible danger forum all over the world. >> Correct. The will have a target painted on their back. >> Exactly. So it was very important that Miss Nagden be involved in this effort. Okay. >> Fascinating. >> And what's very people don't know this but interesting is that the Khazunish at that time was a young younger man. Okay. And they found in his writings that this is way before the Khaz became famous. Okay. But they found in his writings that he prepared a whole like like history of the world and history of and all that to refute. >> Fascinating. Yeah. not the Kazunish is he >> kazunish ish they found it his at the end they told him that they won't need it at the end and >> but who would have asked him to who would have asked him to >> I don't know my feeling >> was that an effort on his of his >> that's my feeling is and I'm going to back up my feeling with an interesting humorous story that many Rabon that time knew that things it was a court case you have to understand it wasn't a regular bud liel it was a court case and Judaism was on the bench okay and there were claims going back and forth and citations from khazal back and forth and from and you had to make sure that things are presented properly. So it seems that people from all over the world were sending in their suggestions how to uh and I'll soon bring an example for that. So they had to establish two things had to establish number one that bailis itself was aid >> okay and there was difference between and non-assidim on this thing. Now, how did they establish that Bis was aid? Because they found that he had a friend in that area who he he ate breakfast with him, I think that morning. His name was Schneer. >> Kabatska. >> Oh, so you think Kabatska, right? So the anti-semits knew this. Okay. They knew the name Schneerison was >> a like the Kabad. >> So they even called him that he ate breakfast with the Sadic Schneer. Okay. In order to give it the feeling that he was a right >> and associating with the top it was the fact that Bis was not a chabas. Okay. He he he was running a factory >> right >> and he his employers forced him to work on chabas. >> He wasn't that for him. >> He wasn't that fum. And here comes the big surprise. They're forcing. Okay. So balis is eating breakfast with that sadic schnar. Right. So he must be aid right now basically is not from okay so one of the ploys was okay we're going to bring the Saddak Schneer to testify in court that he was connected to him. >> So they described that all of a sudden the Sadi Schneer walks in and he's a clean shaven bareheaded modern Russian >> as Isra say. >> Right. Exactly. And they're asking him, do you are you do you know that there's you know sadic in Jud calledison? No, I'm not aware that there's a reb like that all that. Do you have >> mean the expert witness their star witness just turns out to be a total dud. >> Exactly. It describes the court case describing people like like looking at the saddakers and walking into the courtroom and great this is the >> great so the thing blew up. >> So oh so it didn't blow up. So, so they had the expert witness who was unbelievable like there's a the expert witness for Judaism at that time was Rabyakov Maz who was the RV of Russia at that time from Moscow I think at the time and he was a very learned and articulate Jew and he gave it was the end of the it was the end of the sessions in the in the court case and uh and he got up to speak okay and he spoke for hours and hours and people thought that people going to run out because they they you know they were bored but he his speak >> he was riveting >> he was riveting and it's all written down you can find all the words >> I mean it was justund 115 years ago >> yeah and he explains goes through goes through cabala goes throughus and they say that he really changed the tide >> in the he was so impressive that he really changed the tide at the end by the way he was he was not guilty uh >> found not guilty although although it has to be dead. They got away with it. That the jury, if I'm not mistaken, said that it was he was not guilty and yet it had he said that it had the death had the hallmarks of a ritual murder. >> You have to understand that the jury at that time, I don't know about the judges, the jury were like these poers like like the push go peasants >> and they couldn't let the charge go totally declared. I just want to was say end off allow me to end off with one historical thing that I found and this is >> when I was growing up and probably you heard it as well. There's a famous story about Romeo Shapiro Malublin who told Rabakov Maz to answer one of the questions in the court as I said they're always quoting from that says >> which is Gmorra in >> right so so the question is how can you say about we're not >> Jews are people >> and you're not human that is one of the I mean it's just ready me it's red meat for accusations So Ram Shap told Maz to tell the court. >> Yeah. >> That the question of the Gomorrah was that why are are Jews called and are called anosim? Anoshim in the plural. Like by Jews it's in the singular adom and by it's anosim. And the reason is because a Jew feels the turus of of the Jews and therefore it's like one one body, right? And that's why Jews are called because of the unity. The Jews operate as one. >> That is the story that I grew up with. Okay. When I was preparing this I this thing this this for an article this the fear for an article. So I went through Rabyakov Maza's protocols that he wrote for by himself >> for must be fascinating >> for a publication in Hatsira >> and surprise they never asked him that question >> right >> and never came up. So I was thinking to myself >> a legend. >> So where did this come from? So this I'm getting back to the Kazun again. My feeling is that the rabbon at that time they were thinking to themselves what questions can they ask Jacob Maza on the bench right and how can we supply answers to that so the is preparing something and also it was did not appear in the records of the >> fascinating I think that ties in very neatly to one final thought which is that there's an absolutely fascinating and famous perspective a chilling perspective from uh related to this idea of the state of the Jewish people and the fact that blood liels have something to do with the in the inner state of of amasim famously asked the following thing he says we know there's a rule and he asks us about the blood liel we know that there is a rule the kazal tell us that sheer inclim something a 100% lie cannot stand something that has no grain of truth simply won't last it won't it it has no permanence and no and no substance every sheer has to contain contain a kernel of MS that's what Kazal tell us and asks in memor he says what about the blood label the blood label is 100% % false. There cannot be it's an isa to eat blood, right? It's such a barefaced lie. It has no substance to it. And he says, "How can it be?" Therefore, that for a thousand years, it's been the most deadly deadly scourge on the on the Jewish people. How can it be? It's a great question. And he says the following things. He says the following words. He says, "It's clear. This punishment it must be something a punishment right in in in paying in kind for from the fact that it's so persistent it's lasted a thousand years it is so deadly and it's such a lie it must be a heavenly form of punishment for an ancient and persistent a vera that Hashem claims retribution from every so often. Now we know that we know that type of language from the it says Hashem will if you when you're being punished you'd be punished for this as well. And he says the following thing and he suggests and were it not for the fact that I'm not of sufficient stature to say what I'm about indeed about to say. It's because the curious Yseph. When the brothers sold Yseph, they dipped his cloak, his garment into blood and they pretended to YaKob that he was and he says that was such an earthshattering cosmic and and sin that has persisted throughout the generations. He says, "If I've made a mistake, the good God, Hashem will should atone for me." But he's backing. He's saying this is what he thinks is the blood liel. Now there's a twist here because the and this is also well known those who have seen the writings and heard the hagoda of of Ratatio Salomon Ratio Salomon asks based on right and we and um based on the the words of Raanovasan the frightening and and words of what is it he says there's one final question why is it that always that Pesak this it was the blood label came to be associated with Pesak obviously we understand that the mechanics The Jews need the blood for this. We understand. But in terms of the hashk, the divine process by which Hashem is arranging for these uh metaphysical things to happen. Why is it? And so he says that it's linked. He says that there is there's we dip the karpass and the karpass is there to recall that one of the things that is not said in Hagada. In Hagada, we talk about what happened when we got to Egypt. But why do we get into Egypt? Why do we go to Mitsime? Well, we know where he got to mit. It was a process by which they were sold because the brother sold Ysef and that led us and yet that's not mentioned in the Hagod Matis says strange thing right how we talk about what happened to Mr. The pes is an origin story and yet it doesn't describe the origin of how we got there and that is says the is the it's there in the words the the is part of mo is the passim says that it's got to do the karapas remembers the the of the selling of which was the trigger for the um now what was responsible what was that was an act as we know of and so was saying that if that the that is Pes is a time when we've got to uh uh repair the act of that brought us to Mit again right and to bring us all together PES is a time forb gathered together and he says no coincidence then that blood liels surfaced around Pesak because the time when is are meant to be do and and fix as it were the which the underlying trigger for for the go if they don't do such a thing then pes we get the reminder of such a thing which which is an earthshattering understanding of the process of this thing and so rebime to me this begs the question here we're going through you know whether it's technically a blood liel or it's the category whether it's technically ritual murder as the this imagery which has returned in Gaza and in the artist as we began who's in the now publishing in England this his works are on display using the medieval imagery of Jews Jews, you know, absorbing and drinking that blood. Whether it's technically a blood liel or just simply blame the Jews, the dynamic is the same. And Vasim was saying we have to look deeper. There's a mid mid and we have to ask ourselves what is the midg of the return of the blood label. Well, was already saying there's a sin. No better than that. But it's at least something startling to look at this process for a thousand years. the blood liel. Here we are once again. >> Thank you, Arabdalia. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for listening to Behind the Times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time.