Eps 1. The Higher Court - The Rabbis' Forgotten Battle For Gush Katif's Shuls

Did you know that the forgotten founder of Zionism went on to play a leading role in audas Israel or that Rafataly was responsible for the continued presence of the Muslim wack on Harabas? It turns out that the margins of history tell the real story. Behind the [music] Times dives into the big concepts and overlooked moments that carry vast meaning all through the lens of Torah and rabbitic thought. This is Jewish history like you've never heard it before. Behind the times with Rabbi Ephraim Zalma Galinski and Gdalia Gutag. Israel says it deeply regrets a strike on Gaza's only Catholic church pledges investigation. That Rabbi from Zam Galinski is a headline from last week from CNN. Israel's busy there still fighting after two years in Gaza. And apparently nobody knew but Gaza had a Catholic church. Israel bombed it. Why is this the beginning of a podcast in this series over here? And the answer is because it turns out that it may very possibly have been that Catholic church in Gaza may once have been Gaza's shul, the shul in Gaza city. >> So you are hinting now that there was a Jewish presence in Gaza going back at least 200 years. Correct. We know that there was a Catholic church. We know that there was built on the ruins of a historic shul. And this is an entryway into this podcast which is going to be dealing with 20 years after the tragic destruction of the beautiful Jewish communities there in Gushkativ. We decided to do a historic episode from some recent history that's also current as Israel spends years fighting inside this little strip of land over there. So we know that in 1831 the Gaza Jewish community which had existed in one form or another and we're going to go see how far back that goes. Definitely in modern times let's call it from the 16th century that shul which served the Jewish community there in Gaza city was destroyed by the ruler of Egypt who then becomes who becomes the ruler of Arat Israel who's the son of Muhammad Ali and his name is Ibrahim Pasha actually very it's a fascinating part of uh Jewish presence in Eritis because if you take the last 500 years of Jewish history so is ruled by the Ottoman empire which it sits in Turkey in Istanbul. >> And there was a window a very very short window of another governing body on during those 500 years and that is the tufa of Ibrahim Pasha. Now you're saying that he destroyed the shul in Gaza, right? But you have to mention the same breath that Ibraim Pasha was very kind to the Jews of and the Galil and he actually helped a very in influential Jew by the name of Isuel Beck if you know if you know the name and he's the one who eventually came to and built the sh that again is under controversy now the sh in the old city if you're reading the news you know there's a whole is about it who's going to run the sh historic which was the base of the in the old city over the square opposite from the a huge dome building like the but it was the not the there was different reasons why the solution wanted to build that jewel some say it was to to make a presence of against the presence of the tumor from the Russian church some say he wanted to make a like you said a major shashul in the old city you know in contrast to the which was the shashul but in any case The person who built that shoe was Beck came from originally from Tvas. He was originally from Parichov. He had a printing press. He came to opened up a printing press invas. And he had a very good relationship with Ibrahim Pashah. And he allowed him to establish the first agricultural Jewish settlement in Eritisol way before the secular Zionists came which was on the Jmak. If you know the jerm is haron there was a ishu that's today called it's in Arabic it's the of beck and when Mosha mur came to visit all he was so impressed with what he saw the the magnificent ishuv that beck made in the in on the jmak that he had this grand plan to work together with Ibra Pesha and buy off land in the galvas and bring thousands of Jews from Europe That would have been like the beginning of the Jewish state long before >> according to Monte Fury. It all fell apart. It all fell apart because Pesha's rule did not last a long time. Okay. the Ottomans with the >> reasserted control >> together with the French and the British they reinstituted their their their on so while he was an Egyptian ruler his father was a Muhammad Ali of Egypt not the boxer for those who know that particular slice of sporting history and while he controls he dismantles this shul he controls Gaza which is part of the holy land and he dismantles this shul and the place eventually becomes the Catholic church Sir, I'm just putting two and two together in my hurried slightly slap dash journalistic fashion over here saying we know there's a shul we know the Catholic Church was built on a site maybe it's that it just it's just there in the news and that's merely a hook though to go back and Gillinsky to discuss this whole Jewish presence which we know if we go only 20 years ago there was now today and now in the summer this is when I first arrived in Erit Israel for a visit and I saw this the terrible sites I remember that you know the orange movement. You see the you see thousands of youth and all the people there in the orange t-shirts and all this stuff protesting the imminent destruction of the G strip Jewish communities and we're going to be touching on a few things in this episode which is some of the hakic aspects of the Jewish presence in in in the gillis or the borders of Israel. what is the hakic status of of Gaza and but cycling back to to to pres almost almost present times you know with the destruction of those communities and particularly I just like to give a head up to readers that I'm going to be flagging take quoting over here from some notes I've taken in an forthcoming book on the life of Cook who I've based in who had a lot to do with the with these communities there for many years and was there right as the curtain went down on them okay so where do we begin here Let's begin. Let's cycle back as far as we can in this story over here. >> First of all, even someone who's not so such a big bucky in Jewish history >> will know that there was a Jewish presence in Gaza at least more than 400 years ago. How would he know? That's a riddle for you. Very simple ria that there was a Jewish presence in Gaza in the 1600s. You could mean one of two things. No, I think you mean only one thing. You mean in the time of Shabitu. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Go on. >> Shit's Novi, quote unquote, the one who proclaimed him being Msiah was Natan Azati. >> Nathan of Gaza, >> right? >> It has a ring to it. It had a ring to it back then, many people. So, who was >> he was there in the 1660? I think that was the that was the kuf that he was there. And before his time, a drop from like 50 years or even less drop less than that, the RV of Gaza was the famous of the purib which is probably I once I once searched into this I think it is the most the most composed p on shabas in all time >> and you know why >> there are like over 700 from all the kilas all the >> unbelievable well firstly because it's akin far and sing it but I think it's to to my mind I've heard it sungakhila he should be well he's very ill now is you know sings it it's like his national anthem his anthem he just sings it all the time because he's got nothing to do with shabas is talking about the kind of this it's this most beautiful poetic look at the world >> ends up the last two parts about mikdash which is right the mikdash >> etc so the so if we're on the if we're on the subject of najara And so that was composed in Zvas and we know it was composed in Svas and we'll in a minute how this is connected to Gaza but how we know it was composed in Svas because over that song or in general had apparently had a very nice voice and but anyway he composed these lofty soaring nagunim of which most famous is >> notim okay so >> the nunim came later correct so in the safer pelle right which is classic Muslim to say for us it has if you look in under I think under I don't remember where I found it once but either under the reference of sua or under shir I think it's under suda so he has the he writes there this is >> a papo >> that's right papo writes about an interaction that happened he said once a jara was sitting there singing singing one of putim on shabas the shabas in the shabas suda and the Arizal's walking past outside and he sees sees Malohim coming there to crowd around fascinating right to crowd around Shabas and then he sees suddenly now does not know who's he's just singing but sees this through the windows and he sees suddenly at one point rolls up his sleeve right rolls up his sleeve and I don't know maybe he's hot there was the air conditioning wasn't working and the malim go so the Arizal comes inside and tells him you had malim sitting here while you were singing and they've gone on. So he says how can they how can I bring them back? He says cover yourself properly for the in other words sit there like respectfully yes he's there and the will come back and indeed he carries on singing. So, so I mean there's many things from there. Obviously that Riza was such a lofty madrega that he was able to see this but clearly what does that say about a jara these weren't just putin holy poet this was such a lofty individual and although that song we know there by must have been right to have happened with Arizal that must have happened inas the last five years of his life from about 1620 to 1625 rais the rav of Gaza and his son after sort of mo najara I think najara is a place in Spain by the way or some something like that. But he's they obviously they come from there. So that is and as you say that is the golden age in the modern era of the gazen Jewish community because you have a substantial community that unusually does not need to this is very important. Whilst and which is the centers of Jewish civilization then in in Eric Israel exists on the Kaluka which is the you know the money raised in Europe or probably across the the Ottoman Empire actually and supporting the communities and you in terms of history it seems that the Gaza Jewish community was a prosperous one and did not need to >> that is true that community was always poor that is true >> and so what happens over here there is ancient history in Jewish history in Gaza but we have this turn in the in the 17th century you have and then it goes downhill. You have the rise at the peak under it goes downhill because of the whole schism over and so the community rebuilds again. We have the turns up there spend spends a shabas there and so he's >> so let's point out the is a we're talking about we're talking about was a drop later then you have the which is again later on which is correct I'm going 700s later >> correct so in the 18th century in other words is going through and but again this community just skipping through very quickly this community has problems under Napoleon when Napoleon invades the holy land then in 1799 I think it was he it the community needs to pack out and that's it and they come back again in the >> it's a reoccurring theme in the Gaza community >> it was a tenuous existence in other words it was never it was always a peripheral community they come back and in and 1831 they their sh is destroyed but they're still there eventually in Tarapat 1929 the anti-Jewish riots that destroy the Jewish community they're exiled then again and they come back after the six a war and which is kind of where one you know where we know this whole community and then obviously in 2005 destroyed once again I I have like a somewhat it's not a childhood memory but I right after I was married we're talking about in 1992 so my took us yeah it took us as a young couple with their family to like a honeymoon type of thing to the beautiful hotel called Malon Nevet Khim do We were ever there. >> I've never I was never in Guushkatif at all. >> Right. It was like it was on like on on the shores of Aza and beautiful place. And who was sitting next to us? Right next to us on the table in the hotel. >> Go >> right next to us. >> You'll never guess. >> Wow. >> Sitting at the table. And uh and it's interesting. >> So people used to go there. >> People used to go there. And what was he doing the whole day? He's just sitting on a porch like opposite the you know sitting learning opposite the waves >> it's like galitans that's the equivalent sitting on the roof of galitans in natana it was either the roof of galitans in Italy or it's nveda khalim in in what was then gushkif very sadly destroyed so let's go back we've kind of talked about the kind of the 16th century to the 20th century and in fact into the 21st century we're going to cycle into the 21st century a bit later but let's go all the way back and understand for a minute railinsky where This is what is the status of Gaza in in Halaka. Right? Actually this Shila is a very complicated Shila which does not have a clear resolution. Okay. till this day. >> And the big problem is stems from a steer between the Maharit and the Rebaz which lived at the time of PF drop after the BF >> about what was the meaning in regarding using fruit from Gaza. On the one hand, the marit says all the food in was transported from Gaza and we used to eat it without any gusha nothing. >> Marit being ra of trani, >> right? He was the son of the mit who was the contemporary of the bf on his best in in in >> Marit was after him is those who learn the name the marit comes up a lot because the adopts a certain of the marit and I think the khanish points out the marit was the like he he puts him on top of everyone. So we have a chuva on the one hand saying that the pirates coming from Gaza to were the minigas to eat them without any restrictions >> meaning didn't apply nothing nothing >> so it's considered to be outside the borders of that's right >> and we have the testimony of the who is also and he doesn't mention anything like that so it's there's a problem over here it's very difficult to this this in the But but getting back to the basics, right? The basics of when you're talking about gular, you have to break it up into at least three parts. Okay? There's one part that has to do with what we call in modern Hebrew and or the English the promised land or right. What are we talking about? Talking about promise to Okay. And that is that is you know that is >> go to the Euphrates half of Turkey, Lebanon is going to be much bigger than it is now. >> Much bigger. It's like probably two or three times than what we have today. And that by the way does not I don't think that has significance. >> It's only when they come. >> Right. Right. Okay. Now we're going to other two parts and that is and >> which translates as those who >> is those parts of the promised land that were captured by those who came from meaning. Okay, that is called in the of the first sanctification of Israel took place when they first conquered it under Yeshua. Now the is that >> okay >> that's it. It went on once they were exiled >> the this usually the the reason that they give is fordush was done by the aine and it was done by by Yeshua and the and since that was finished it was c captured afterwards doesn't it doesn't have any significance to today but the sha which is o which is ezra and onward when they returned from the babylonian exile so therefore they sanctified it again >> and that then never leaves >> right they never sanctified it by kibush it was there they just lived there >> right >> okay and that never went away >> so anywhere that the returning exiles lived >> right that has >> although and that's smaller because that area the difference between if you say the first was the promised land was enormous >> but in reality only sanctified the first time on a certain area of it and the second time around sanctified even less >> and that's why you have this very interesting gala called big chan if you know what I'm that >> it's like a a mlat you have like a you have a enclave inside so which does not have the of it was purposely left like not I think it's brought in that an should have a place to bear is from so in any case so we're talking about and which the majority of the significance comes from however there is a certain significance from and that is that there's a certain gusha to and here we have a very interesting question a lot of people don't know this and some people are shocked when I talk to them about it is that there's actually leave you ever hear of this >> I've heard occasionally every time I >> many people by the way we once interviewed for the kulmas for the Hebrew >> kulmas >> and he told us when he came to visit Israel so he he went to visit The prescribed son rebel they brought money from it's you know for donations of >> Salvik of sent used to send money >> I don't know if it came from they brought money he used to >> I know they used to send but I don't know if he sent it through but when he came in to visit Bushkov's son so told him you know that you are now a prisoner he says what do you mean he says you're not allowed to leave you're stuck >> [laughter] >> He made it out apparently he didn't paskin like a rebel but that's where held they not allow leave. Now this nikuda of leaving is dependent on that's how some people say that mean the certain to those parts that were captured by and not by that the is of leaving wouldn't apply to that because there's a certain gadia to it. So where does the Gaza strip come into this? >> So now we're coming to the Gaza Strip. Now that is the question. Remember we remember we mentioned in the beginning about the Marit and thebaz. So that is the question. What was the status of Gaza? Was it captured by Mitim and not by wasn't it captured at all even by like and some people say that's of the Rambam that there's nothing there. It's only part of the promised land because again it's clear that promised land goes all the way possibly to the Nile and certainly it goes to the right which is the so so the Gaza strip is definitely inside the land that's promised to the question right that is the big question and it seems very clear that many of the hold that it was not captured by Ali right but I'm I'm sure there are shitistas who say that was captured because there are people there are shitistas who say that you have to keep like the says that you have to keep to some ISIS and on those places. So that is the problem of Gaza. What we do know is that until the time of the Hasminian period like they say in in in history books there was no Jewish presence in Gaza right whatever we spoke about till now was much later than that. The Ottoman Empire is like is let's say 1,500 years after the Kasho, right? Yes. It's 1,500 years afterwards. So anything that started was from the period of Before that we don't have you you mentioned to me like an off the record discussion that we had that some people want to say that nur was which is >> which which runs into Gaza, >> right? Is >> from the negative, >> right? So that would make the obvious already in that area but I don't we don't have as a as Gaza we don't have any record of a Jewish presence in Gaza from that Kufa. So it makes a lot of sense that it was not captured by Olibville. Okay. So just to summarize the hak opinion. So it's clear from the marit that olieville did not conquer uh Gaza and that is why the Marit says the mini line was that there were no mist on the pers coming from Gaza and the zagoyan is that it was conquered by buff and that's why all the hal supply. So that that that's where we're holding it today. Let's cycle forward into post six day war, right? Post six day war, you have the state of Israel, you know, triples in size. You had and the Golan Heights and the whole of Yudan Shamron and they had >> Sinai Sinai which was forget the Ga Strip. was all the way to what the Israeli soldiers used to call it Africa when they went across across is strange to think but the sewers canal you know sets apart the the Sinai peninsula is part of is part of one continent across is you know it's Asia is the effectively Eur Asia over here and if you could cross the if you cross the sewers canal you're in Africa and the Israelis used to talk in this in the Yokipa war we're going across to Africa now right but very much in that case that historic Gaza with all its links. Jews had lived there until fairly recently. And in fact, we had a man over here who used to be the head of Shai, if you remember him, he used to be the head of inb's head of marketing. >> And he was telling me he did his service in Gaza and his, you know, as in the military service in Gaza. His grandfather had grown up in Gaza. >> Wow. And he said and his grandfather said to him the first night he said when he went in there check if the if the mallet is still there on the corner of Salah Adin you know the main north south road that goes through Gaza if it's still there and he went and yes there it was it was it was still there and there was and until the time until the 50s the shul in in in Gaza city in the there's a Gaza city has a neighborhood called Shijaya um where it's uh and the sh was there and It had the bases for us and this is the bases for us where destroy was buried and it was destroyed. Now what happened was in 48 in 1948 the obviously the states of Israel there was the war of independence the Egyptians were ruling the area the Israel didn't manage to to free it and it was the in fact there were massive battles in the neg not far away and 1956 the sewers campaign when Israel attacked Egypt together with Britain and France etc. Israel conquered the area was able to take it over briefly until the all of them Britain, France and Israel were forced out of the area under United States pressure. >> That was important for them because of trade, right? Because >> the S canal they want they wanted the S canal which had been built, you know, which had been built and controlled by the British, the British and French. So they wanted in again and they were forced out in a humiliating retreat by the United States which was famously that was the end of the British Empire. That was the final death nail for the British Empire that that you know the fail humiliating failure. But Israel had been successful and they conquered the Gaza Strip. They were forced out and when the Egyptians came back what they did was they wanted to dejudaize the whole thing. So what they did was they bulldozed the old Bahim there the Bakavaras >> 1956. So when in 1967 11 years later the Israelis come back in in the 60 war triumphant and in fact they roll in take the whole of take Gaza and they take all the way up to the S canal there's no signs of any Jewish presence left there but it took a while and and there was as part of the push to settle these huge new lands so the government built settlements inside Gushkif what became Gushkatif and obviously they built it right into the Sinai as well People maybe don't not aware, not everyone's aware, but there was a big Jewish town called Yamit. The evacuation, I think 1979 of Yamit. It was a precursor and a promo to this very tragic evacuations. What eventually came as a result of the Oslo peace process in and the destruction of the Gaza Jewish communities there in in 2005. So in Gaza, it was settled what became known as Gushkif. There was I think basically in be in between a million and a half Arabs there was these Jewish communities were were placed there and they were from the beginning very in even in terms of the even in terms of the settlements if you like to call them that they were very dangerous places to live. There was bombings and there were shootings because they were so strategically placed to divide up Gaza north to south. We had some in the north northern Gaza Strip. You had some in the center. I think the Nits what's called the Nitsarim corridor. Anyone who's following the new news now knows it's Nitsarim corridor that it basically a a road that that that goes from the Israeli the border Israeli border all the way to Mediterranean a few only a few miles across and it goes through the road that used to run through Nitsarim the Jewish community and it bisects Gaz it splits it into two. In the news you they talk about the Morag axis as well which is further down. Morag is down towards the southern gaza strip and it's also these roads they use. The roads follow the old roads that were placed by the army there to the settlements that were Jewish villages there that were placed there strategically to break up the the contiguity and prevent the Palestinians having just control of the whole Gaza strip. In any case, we had this gushkat if they're down at the bottom and this and I think it's I think it's Rabaginsky. It's such a to people if you're coming on the scene, you're just kind of waking up to this, you say, "Yes, 20 years since Gushkif, but if you live through this and you you don't you perhaps wouldn't understand how traumatic it was for this was a terrible Jewish disaster, a you had families who lived there their whole lives. You had kids who were born there and grew up there and got married and lived there and this whole thing was just uprooted because of I'm sorry to say this a mishagas of one person. It's really mindboggling because today you would think that in to reach such a decision you would have to go through many committees and votes and all that and and because of his power because of his personality he was called the bulldozer. Right. >> Bulldozer. >> Yeah. He managed to bulldoze through this whole thing. It made no sense. No one thought of >> Well, hold on. I think back in the context, I think we have to understand one thing. It was very dangerous. These communities were constantly being rocketed and mortared. And the theory then even back then there were large parts of the right that said this is terribly naive. The idea that the world is suddenly going to come onto our side and believe us that and support us if we get any more rockets coming from there. if we have if you pull out these and destroy these Jewish communities is nonsense, right? But there was the reason it worked at the time was because the exhaustion with 20 years of Palestinian terror. Now, in retrospect, and this is wasn't just in retro, not just in hindsight, but for many of the people there and for many in the wider society, it was like a car crash in slow motion that you could see happening. They could see as soon as if you give the Palestinians control over their own lands and not have the army patrol and you know root out the pockets of terror it's going to be the rockets on Israel proper. It's going to be on stro and it's going to be Ashkalon and it's going to be Ashdod and it's going to be on Tel Aviv and Shaliman. That's exactly what happened and what a terrible tragedy to see within a relatively short space of time and that's why it sounds like naive and tragic at the same time but it's >> like what were you thinking? >> Correct. But it's all the more it's all the more tragic and this is because when you know there was almost as you experienced it but it was almost like a ganed in there inside these places in the sense also there were me there were Jewish communities there of mitzvah who because they were so it was by the way it was a stronghold of which if you know I don't know for all the listeners who know what that means right today if you tr if even officially right when the when they make surveys case in the in the national religious world in they break it up into three parts okay and we say that in Hebrew right in Hebrew it'sal and this mainstream a Hebrew word right mainstream and right >> so we talk about means the it means the it means of on the national religious line spectrum these are the intensely you know more standard >> these are act tell them and tell This is this is where it comes from >> all of them. There's no other personality that is that led this is entirely the working of him which is Rav Cook the first Rav Cook's only son. And if you mention of cook and this is something that is very interesting to know one of the major karedi figures who is involved in the struggle to prevent the destruction of gushkiv was the cook's cousin who was cook based in the in the old city in the old city he adopted the communities and he had a very unique relationship with the communities in in gushkif and he was in in some ways like a pisuk for them he used to visit the schools of Tamudra over there and he used to say about them that something very special used to say that here in Gosskif they don't just grow bugfree lettuce so they grow bugfree children as well you'll have to explain that statement because inro today the bug-free lettuce is still called in the stores >> gushkif >> they because they pioneered in gushkatif the agricultural industry there was extremely advanced And they pioneered the whole development of growing literally bug-free vegetables. And it's actually fascinating because these communities they had visits from real real come down there and visit them and a lot of chu about their produce. >> They made the breakthrough in the correct. >> So so he said about them was not just the bugfree lettuce also the bugfree children. He said because of the certain purity those in terms of they were the creme de la creme the most ideal idealistic of all of the settlement movement was to live there because of its because of its historic significance but because of its isolation it required the most serious nephesh and they had to go to it was dangerous I spoke to some of the prince a couple of the principles of the tamara then I think one in atmona one in if I'm not mistaken and back these are names that are back from 20 20 plus years ago 25 years ago now. And they say they had to open a local time of Tory because they were there were explosive devices, bombs that they underneath the buses, a tragic massacre of like and they destroyed and then they even when they made armored buses armored from underneath it was too dangerous to send the kids school gives you some idea of what it was like over there that we shouldn't look back and say, "Oh, why did they take them out of there?" That was the context as well. >> As you said, you're right. There was a problem. the solution worse than was more destructive than the problem itself. No question in retrospect. >> More scarier part is is that they said that Shaon agreed to it because he was threatened by by lawsuits about the different financial things. >> It that entered Israeli political parliament because you have a term over here to turn some to treat someone like an esrog came from one of the major columnists at the time. He said once Shahon had decided to implement the policy of the left wing in terms of disengagement disengagement. It was just euphemism. It was not disengagement. It was what's called those that many people call the girush gushkiv the expulsion. Once he decided to implement the leftwing's policy and to implement Oslo in effect he was treated all of the suddenly magically the judicial authorities stopped investigating corruption and they treat him like an esrog and that is what a terrific level of corruption which led to destruction of Jewish communities and arguably to the tragedies of October. So I want to put it in something very interesting at that kufa mish at that kufa when Aron shon pushed through the gushk I was on a trip that the community organized for you know ch parents and children you know like to some place in the tapon in the north like one of the it was dafka in the jermach like near haron beautiful place and on the bus prizes on the bus was today someone who's known as one of the big pkim today in the literature world in so Yeah. >> And he was there with his teenage kids and it so happened that he was sitting right in front of me on the bus and we started smooing and we started smooing about Ariel Chiron and he told us, "Don't you see how you can't rely on someone who has a right-wing ideology but he's not from it doesn't hold water. It pushes. You don't know when it's going to you." >> Shon was the most rightwing of the right wing. He was the one who put all these communities there. He put them there and that was why the utter sense of betrayal afterwards. But I'm going back to he went there and he would went under when these communities were under attack. He went to visit them which was very rare a figure in the world to do that. And he came there and he would speak in the schools and and the different sh one of these principles told me of the Tory over there said that he remembers what he said. He came along and he said and on the wall there was a a chart and you know two lines a graph etc. And there was two lines with numbers on them. And he asked what's this? He says this is the number of they said this is the number of missiles and mortars on one side and the other side the other axis was the other bar was the number of Mishnas. So it wasn't isn't that beautiful and he told them what he was moved to tears by it. He said always make sure the number of Mishna stays ahead of the number of missiles because that's going to protect you. But that's what he meant that these that there was communities of Euromime which you didn't find elsewhere when cycling ahead when the when Ariel Sharon announced the this political plan of which became the you know disengagement or the expulsion of Guskativ among others fought this massively and he what he tried to do was he tried to get the weight of the world into it and he realized that the address here is I have to point out that was like a helmet of some sorts of Raval Yash very he was like his man in the Rabanote correct and he and >> we see that at the end they rebuilt the Vashul and Raash was very concerned about what type of uh >> so it shouldn't turn into a museum and event hall etc etc >> he he actually compelled Rav Simuk to become the RV of the place because he understood that he's the only figure that's going to garner support from everyone and and he that's it and he agreed he took it upon himself >> correct which is why it's assoc assiated with in many people's minds not the way he was for 50 years but the last 10 years of his life when it's when it's in the but anyway he took leading security experts to revelash and revash would sit there on the maps he said the maps are very strong on the military maps and he said and in the end he was able to and revash came out and said that's it we cannot support this thing although we have to remember again it's only in retrospect we forget how great a consensus at the time it became Even the L could maybe Natanyao supported this, right? It was seen as being something that yes, it was a way if we'd get out this blood bath, this quagmire in in in Gushkativ, we could have reset with the Palestinians. It was the last flicker of of the madness from Oslo from the Oslo Peace Court. And what happened was that he and and many people did not see it the way that Khak saw it. His son told me he went around for a year distraught, totally distraught. And he would, his nephew, somebody was a yeshiva at the at the time. He said, he would say to yeshiva, he would say to anyone, "Are you not bothered by this? Are you not bothered by this?" And they would say, "Well, there's nothing I can do." He said, "But at least you can cry. Can you not?" He said, and he said like this, "Let's say," he said, "is justified. Let's say it's got to be done, but you're losing part of Erit Isel, which is a holy place." And he said, imagine the following thing. A doctor said, "Your leg has got gang green and needs to be amputated. It needs to be done. A person gets their leg amputated. Are they happy?" Well, they're relieved that their life has been saved, but they've lost a leg. They've lost a limb. And that is how he said, "We've lost a limb of Israel." That was his tremendous adversary was legendary. >> In order people to appreciate it, you have to give at least a few words. was because when you're telling someone he was the nephew of cook so it gives the impression that you're talking about someone who grew up in the datumi world so you have to give us some kind of a introduction and I know you're the big mum just two minutes two minutes who was rasum was a creation of a son of his father right his father was a nephew of the ravk the rauk Cook but at the same time was a Talmud Muvak. At the same time as being a Talmud of his uncle he was a Talmud Muik of the Brisker. >> His father was a nephew to the first Rafuk and a Tamil of the Bris. >> Correct. So Sumuk was brought up in this house in which there was access to this unusually broad range of Gdali Israel. He went on to become the chief rabbi of afterwards and towards the end of his life. >> I think he learned in the Yeshua. He was a Talmud also Talmud of Slabotka and he was a bridgebuilding figure. He actually became the rever only after his older brother was tragically killed in a car crash. in a a crash with a train ran ran a tragically over his older brother of Schlomma Zan Cook Schlomman Cook was the chief rabbi Rakov a very brilliant and iloy and a charismatic person himself was a person of tremendous charisma tre force of nature but he was recognized he was recognized as being this he created a revolution in in his town of Rakavot because he was able to take a city that was actually very in a sense very liberal it's a university town that was open on Shabas for example and he turned and he went against the national trend. He was able to close it on Shabas and that was because he was had such an amazing way of representing the Torah in the T the public square and so he had these links. He was thor thoroughly figure. He has all his kids learned in in in panovich right. He was one of his biggest things was founding in of major literature which he found which >> functions still today hundreds of it's run by his brother >> who is called the cook. So and in their family this is a family dinner the dynasty to be going >> by the way he's a member of the >> correct so when you have a when you have a figure of showing up in gushkif and that was because he was a man of kalis he was above he was just tora and wherever it could be taught and wherever he could have an impact he showed up and this was a unique a unique individual so when >> you must point out that there were other figures who lent their support to Gushkat like the I think Stalinba >> Boston as wellba right those are at least two two names that come to mind >> correct so when the struggle of gushkif he wasn't in it just on his own but he was the one who was able to mobilize parts of the karedi world against he's going to say because it's going to it's disaster in terms of security and the kadusha less of it is there just to fast forward though to to what happens over here there's something unique that people aren't aware of because when the Gushkatif was it was clear in the last months of the Gushkif Gushkif's existence before these 10,000 you know the good people Jews had been ripped out out of their houses their shs destroyed he would go there often and but he said he knows he told them and there were many people at the time who were saying no we could we live with the muna Hashem's going to protect us and there were even I remember at the time do you remember there was these people who were busy on the day that the communities were destroyed were busy pouring concrete for more buildings. I remember that at the time and it was it's beautiful but also some of the people lived there with a blind faith that it was going to get better and did not say that. He said to them early he said no what he said this government has and he recognized Shaon's determination to make it happen. It's not going to work. He said let's make plans to move. Why? If you take these tremendous centers of Torah which been created communities that were really on a very high level of Torah some of them if you take their those and plant them strategically move as a community back into mainland Erit Israel as it were >> you can change this place and he was so distraught not only by the destruction of the communities per se but also because of what it meant that they'd been scattered all over these and the effect had been lost. Fast forward to something which I think is not very well known because the last flicker or the last signs of Jewish life in Gushkif or the Gaza Strip in modern times is not now because the army's there. The army's there, but it's it's pretty clear they're not going to be putting back. They'll maybe have some bases there or sometimes just in, you know, the negotiating with these terrible kamas to to perhaps to leave on the periphery some Israeli presence. But they but it's pretty clear at this stage it's not going to be that there's not going to be any Jewish communities there for the foreseeable future. The last signs of the community there were not in fact the people themselves or their houses. It was the shs. And this is an an episode which is both beautiful and tragic. the final the battle of the shs of >> first of all it was a very serious shila before it became a court shila which you will be talking about it it was a shila because what do you do to a sh that might be defiled by by correct this was a shila that was brought up by kuk what had happened was that when the government passed the law that became the gushkif law it had it's you know it's a law with with language legal terms in it and it said like this the homes of the residents and sensitive buildings include including but about taking a sit won't remain that was the initial protocol of what became disengagement law >> meaning that the government itself wanted to actively dismantle so this is what it is when a few weeks before literally as the I think it was a tishabove right I mean it's a ter it's a terrible thought to think it was obvious at the time the peronus that comes during the three weeks. It was a remarkable timing that it the pironus was an the most serious destruction since of Jewish life init during the three weeks on tishab I mean it's the timing was so awesome in the old in the real done by Jewish government >> and to think it was done by Jewish government but so when they came up when they came last minute to the government they said hey what about the shors and they said we've been talking about this law for a whole year it's been written they so so was able to go and say to them. You said the homes of the residents and sensitive buildings including Batessa won't remain but it did not say you're going to be destroyed because there was what they did do a feasibility study about take an engineering study about removing the shs in their entirety. That was what people thought the beginning and in fact they were able to say argue in front of the Israel's high court that they only woken up to this possibility later because that's what they that's what they thought and they studied it and they said no it can't be done. It just you'd have to it it wasn't constructed in such a way you could just move it. To be fair, the Chaon government's decision that they're going to destroy the shores, painful as it is, was based on the thought of what eventually actually happened. those terrible sights of Palestinian mobs torching shuls, right? That's number one. Number two, I think a bit less lowly noly, they wanted to make sure that there was nothing left because the shoos left, you're going to have some of the original inhabitants and settlers trying constantly to go back and to visit them and the government and Sharon wanted to make sure that was not the case. But >> that's an interesting point that you you know that as a fact that this was one of the one of the >> Yes. I mean, this is not coming from me. This is coming from there's a a a lawyer called Gillad Corinaldi who was a lawyer who led the fight for this and he wrote a book called Mishbat which is you know a moving title and the judgment and the closing judgment as it were and what happened was it seems that the rash the chief raven had been asleep on this and that the government had pushed this through with some type of non you know okay by the chief raven who said yeah you could do it you could destroy the shs for etc and it was as tishov approached It was a group of rabbon including and and it was I think Rabbi >> just a word who was he was the son of probably the only recent Nazir. >> He was the son of the Nazir. >> Right. He was the only son of the only Nazir that existed in the last few generations. >> He was a no was a ravk. Correct. The Nazer himself was like a semi he wasn't real baluva he was actually at Talmid who he was looking into secular studies in university in Europe and he met up with Rafkuk and he became a very close taluk and he came to and at a certain point he became a ner and if you look for pictures of him a you'll actually see a it's fascinating he was a very holy person hid lived in his whole life in gula in he lived in the same buildings as Abdic and they were very nice to one to each other. They had good relations and his son who also at a certain point of his life was a >> I didn't know that. >> Yes, you can look for old pictures of him. He was in a for a certain point and I think he gave it up later on. I don't know how he did it but he was later elected the chief rabbi of Kyifa and was the chief rabbi of Khifa for many decades. >> That's interesting. of Sharia Cohen and they they started to they realized at the last relatively at the last minute this is what's going to happen what's going to be with the shs they got there was it caused a massive uproar at the time Natan Sharansky who was who's a famous figure said put it as in in the practical ramifications of what was how this was going to be seen around the world he said every time imagine if we try and defend and prevent the destruction of a Jewish cemetery in or an old unused Jewish shul you know shul somewhere in Eastern Europe that the authorities want to seize and turn into a shopping center. What are we going to say? We're going to say that you can't we don't destroy shoes. And then they'll say, "Well, the state of Israel destroys shs and destroys big ones and it destroys many at a time." He says, "We're going to turn ourselves into a laughing stock." So, you're saying there's a precedent here. And so, there began a battle. It took place, a very intense battle that reached the high court trying to the diggers and the heavy tractors were waiting to destroy the shoos. Gush Katif was already empty. The shuls were the only thing left and there's I think it was neim if I'm not mistaken this magnificent shul based medash of which looked like a moendid right and this was you see the pictures of it tragic it's empty um but it wasn't destroyed and they were trying went to revash and he showed him and he was the one who got involved and he said can we stop is it right to destroy the shs and theash said no we're not going to destroy shs and got sack and it was a very rare thing it was written too too abs to him. It was you know towards the end of Riash's life the last few years that he came up with this sack and it's he testifying before the Knessets Vadatuka the constitution committee and law law committee he said he he spoke about spoke about what he'd seen in gushkif he said we cried bitterly to see the former gun aiden turned into right and he said a lawyer asked me where does it say in that it's forbidden for a Jew to destroy a shul He said to the Knesset the s of the committee there that was you know debating this law and he said it's not written because from the days of the elders of Israel in the midbar from the time of the and the from the time of the rashim and until our day never was this question asked Jews to destroy their own shs. He had this intervention it could not be resolved. The government does not have to listen to the constitution committee. The bulldozer aron was going to bulldozer all the way. He was determined once he made up his mind. He was determined at all. And it took it took the battle for the shores of Gushkat took place final battle in the high court which is the bagat right Israel's supreme court the high court as it's known. And I think it's important to understand it was a battle with no good outcome right if you destroy the shs Jews have to set the precedent of destroying their own shoes. And if you don't they'll be destroyed by them. So what happened was the case was being argued by this religious lawyer Gillad Corinaldi and he said he wrote as I said wrote in his book it's one of the most dramatic scenes ever witnessed was when the Rabonim came and testified in the high court. Now he said this was extremely unusual because the pro the what happens is the way that the high court operates over here is that only the lawyers speak the lawyers and the judges speak there are no you don't hear from witnesses but he asked because of the extremely sensitive national question being asked over here and a case with you know ramifications for the Jewish future and Jewish history as well and he said can can speak and he and he said and this put in this book again that this lawyer gave me. He says describes this scene over here. He said rising to his full height put his hamburgic hamburg hat in front of him and he gave a speech he says that shook those present. He said has existed for 4,000 years. Never has a Jew raised his hand against his holy places. Muslims don't destroy mosques. Christians don't destroy churches. A Buddhist deterrent won't destroy his shrine. Then he said, "We kept our forces for months outside a church in Baslem, right? Do you remember that actually under Ariel Sharon a few years earlier against inif when they did the defensive shield so as not to destroy a church the Israelis kept siege because the Palestinian terrorist hold up inside >> and he said we didn't do that so as not to destroy it okay and we saw what happened last week when they bombed Gaza as well if you touch a church and he carried on when the B mikdash was destroyed by tittas the Jewish people couldn't believe what They saw none of us believed that Gushkif would be destroyed maybe houses but shuls there is nothing like it in Jewish history and he continued we spoke to President Bush's advisers to Palestinian leader Muhammad Alan who protects sh in Eureka in Jericho in Gaza city there were shs that weren't destroyed and see what he was talking about Gaddaf Gaddafi's Libya there were shs weren't destroyed and in Tunis as well in other words he's saying we can leave shs under the Arabs. So maybe they're going to be dest he says churches aren't destroyed. Mosques aren't destroyed but shuls. Yes. Are we to be the most degenerate of people and says coronali describes the total silence there in the courtroom. Total silence there. He said that there was he was started breaking out in tears and it was utter silence there as he gave this address that was impressed everyone. He says, "On the scales is the honor of the Jewish people. Non-Jews will say that they have never seen such a low people, one that destroys its own holy places. I turn to you in the name of Jews who go to Schulz and Badrush and in the name of the Jewish people have mercy on us." And that was the end of this. That was the end. The Gilad Corinaldi says that from the tears shining in the eyes he saw some of the judges crying it was clear that his words his passionate words had come home and the government lawyer wasn't able to do anything and the decision was made they set what they did was Fran they put there's a pictures there of in in the book of the signs in blue you know blue and white signs in Hebrew in Arabic and English saying that it's a holy place in under international protection and that it should be left and the decision was taken as it were that even if it was Jewish hands that amputated a limb of Eric Israel which was Gusk or Gaza at least it wouldn't be Jewish bulldozers that destroyed you know Gushkatiff's shul and for me frime that is the story of the most recent and the most tragic when a time now of and isn't it strange and yet not strange at all that this happened during the baysarium and that the story of Gushkatif is one that was rings from hundreds of years in the past and has continued [music] till today. Thank you for listening to Behind the Times. We appreciate you joining us as we explore the stories and people that shape Jewish history. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with friends. Until next time.