Episode 27: How Retail Sales Veteran Aaron Zutler Built PopInsanity | A Million Dollar Popcorn Brand

Welcome back to another episode of The Water Takes podcast. Today on today's episode, we have a guest who took something as simple as popcorn and turned it into a nationwide brand earning a spot on Oprah's favorite things, a Good Morning America feature, and now a starring role role on Marcus Lemonis's show called The Fixer. Before any of that, Aaron Zuker was in the trenches selling small electronics like laptops, keyboards, keyboards, mice, webcams, you know, peripherals they call them. Peripherals, not the actual hardware. Selling them into big-box retailers like Best Buy, Walmart, Target level buyers who eat vendors for breakfast. Would you say that? Definitely. >> Definitely. It's no question. >> how to sell, how to negotiate, how to get a yes from people who say no for a living. Then he took all of that and made a bet on popcorn. Whether you're an employee trying to level up, someone who wants to become a the person your company cannot live without, or somebody quietly wondering if your skills could one day work for you, Aaron's story is exactly what you need to hear today. Welcome back. Welcome. Welcome to the studio. Welcome to the pod. Now, welcome back. It's a pleasure to be here. >> [music] >> We'll get into the story of what you're up to now, but back in the day when shish, selling. What was that like? Paint a picture for us. Cuz sell selling is probably one of the most valuable skills or jobs out there. I I mean when you think about it, someone always is you're always selling with whether you're selling whether you want to go on a vacation and you pitching something to your wife or you want your child to finish eating so he can you're always selling. It depends, you know, to who and to what, whatever. But professionally speaking, I mean these I found sales always a challenge. In what way? Um in a good way. In other words, it's a challenge. You have a product, you have someone who you believe can use that product, and it's a challenge to figure out how to get them to actually you know, buy your product, especially if there's competition, if there's you're a little bit more expensive than they are, or there are some logistical things that they have their way of doing things and you're not quite it's all about making it happen. And I've always found that to be very enjoyable, um stressful at times, you know, like anything else, but uh sales is kind of just how I started, what I did, and what I stayed with. Was that your first like job? >> [snorts] >> Um no, the first job I got was actually like in purchasing and like administrative office kind of thing. I didn't have any experience. A friend of mine just, you know, we we um he had a he had an opening. He had he had, you know, a a job and and I was looking. I just got out of Yeshiva College, whatever, and it just worked. And then that was a snowball. From doing that, you you dealt with many companies and you dealt dealt with many sales people and you dealt with just many people from the employee side, from management side, from vendor side. It was just an eye-opener to what the world has waiting for you. And we what you're going to do with it and where you're going to take it. Many many people get into sales or think sales is some is Many people look at sales as a very daunting or scary job. Even though they're good at schmoozing, they're like, sales is Were you nervous when you got into sales? Were you hesitant? >> I I don't I don't really think of it like that. It kind of just evolved. So so I'd have to it just it's not something like do I want to be an accountant, do I want to be a it just evolved from where I was to I was doing, you know, office work and purchasing this and that, and then the next thing happened with Aaron, by the way, I know you're not in sales, we happen to have some inventory of XYZ. If you know anybody, I'd like to move it out. Hm. You have watches or whatever we were doing and this guy buys what hey, do you know some I have a what normally costs $49.95. I could sell I have 3,000 if I could sell it for $10. I didn't know what I was talking about, but I was just trying because I was given the opportunity. And one thing [snorts] led to the other and I said, wait a second, why don't I always do this? How hard was it or easy was it? >> [sighs] >> Some it really depends on a person's personality. So I happen to be like a a people's person, but some people are like they they they they convulse when when when they're met with any type of confrontation or they have to pitch something. They just just >> Right. Give me my spreadsheet, let me go into my office, have a nice day. >> Right. But other there are there are other people that that like the challenge. They like the schmooze. They like the the adrenaline of just making it happen, the hunt, the the networking. They just love that kill, if you will. Um I I didn't find it so so daunting, if you will, but I know people that that that just cannot sell. But you love it? There are there are part today >> No, that first like closeout that you needed to get rid of. >> It was it was I couldn't believe it because I was making $400 a week working I was married making $400 a week going to Manhattan every day. Exactly. And um but then when you sell when you do a deal and you're making an $8,000 commission commission or profit, woah, how many let me see how many weeks would it take me to be I just did that. Wait a second. Let me let me think about that more and and I kind of navigated to opportunities and such where I I saw I I I I, you know, I saw it after looking for these types of and then you start in the closeouts and then you find out you have all these people who own big companies, they definitely have some overage or they have overstock. And so I became that's how I went from from that's how I got into sales, really. I shouldn't gave you the opportunity to test the waters. >> the guy on the fifth floor sells watches. The guy on the second floor sells Disney ear accessories. And he has 30,000 bows that he wants. I didn't even know what 30,000 was. But now you talk to a guy who has four stores and he'll buy 10,000. So you start to just get used to the world and you start you open up your eyes and you have conversations, but you have to love to talk to people. I go on the plane. I'm just like I'm not a nudnik like hey, what's your name? What do you do? I tell them that. >> Right. It's I'm more like reserved, but if if the conversation starts, I can't tell you how many people I still have their number who I met on the plane. And who I've contacted years later. It's it's it's either you like it or you don't. I I I I think so. But I think sales is from an employer standpoint, an accountant a a a manager or accounts receivable, you're you're an expense. Right. You're not, but but >> bottom line making money. You end of the day, you're not bringing revenue to the company. >> bringing in You're helping me build my business, but a sales guy, wow, you brought me $10 of business. You're like, how are you doing? You know what I'm saying? But it's not like that because you need you always need it takes an orchestra to make beautiful music. You can't say it's the one violin star >> a musician. >> It's it's you need you need everybody's participation. And without them, the big shot conductor is a nobody. >> Right. And that's the way that's the way I really look at things for my own company as well. The way you just said how you're doing, you must be from Brooklyn. I am. How you doing? [snorts] Um but you know what's crazy? I've met some introverts who are doing really well in sales by being not persistent, consistent. Consistently following up, consistently doing the cold calls, consistently building relationships. >> discipline and they have a regimen and they and they go for it. really well. 100%. I I have I have a salesman like that. And they're introverts. They don't enjoy talking to people or being schmoozy, but they provide a solution to a problem and they just consistently do it again and again. >> their follow-up. They they say what they do and they do what they say and they're not nudniks and they have respect. The guy says, you know, I'm away. Don't don't, you know, call me in 2 weeks. You're not calling him tomorrow. Are you sure? There's there you know, there's there's etiquette. And there's also professional aggression. Right. And I found that I was at least at least my prior employers told me that I have the um subtle aggression. Healthy balance. >> It's a healthy balance because I worked for I worked in the Syrian community for many many years. And I learned I I learned a lot from them. Trust me, I learned a lot from them. And they are bulldogs. They are bulldogs. But I also learned like sometimes like the guy just said, don't call me for a couple weeks. I'm going away with my family. Why are you sending him emails? >> Right. Hm. You know, so I learned what to do, I learned what not to do, but there is a balance like you said. There's a balance of being persistent. You know, um following what what what what did he say? Send me the samples. I want to I give me a a competitive analysis. The guy gave you a list of action items to do to help him make his decision. Follow it. Give it to him what he wants and and and stop with your with your aggression. Just give him what he wants, you know, that. So, yeah. I have a question. Selling into big-box retailers probably one of the hardest type of sales um there is. They have all the power, these buyers, and they're like a million people are trying to call them and sell them products. How how did you manage to do it? Who did you sell to? So, we sold electronics and when I started in the company I I started to sell what's called regional retailers. So, in my case I remember back in the day they started I started off with let's say PC Richard. Oh wow. PC Richard is not in LA it's not it's it's it's East Coast. East Coast. And you know I had East Coast and then I had different retailers in East Coast. Some had 10 stores some had 30 stores whatever it was and as I excelled in that and that took years. I didn't sell national retailers until I was doing this for quite some time cuz it's a whole different animal they you don't just walk in you like it they buy it doesn't work that way. You present they have line review there's a certain time of year when they do it what's called a reset because think about it you have a thousand stores and you want to buy this microphone. What do you think they they they snap their fingers and all of a sudden your microphone is on their shelf? You know the planning that goes into to mapping out a thousand stores they know exactly which shelf third shelf up fourth facing to the left three deep. They know exactly where they're putting it a buyer is not just I like it I'm buying it. It's it's planning it's does he have the open to buy? Who says he can buy it? He loves it he's selling me an iPad for for $30. But I don't have an open to buy meaning my money is spent for this quarter or this month or whatever it is. I'm not saying there's not exceptions if it's a crazy deal whatever but there cloud generally speaking there is what's called an open to buy. And I can call a buyer and I say hey we normally sold to you for $10 or $30 now I could do it we we can give you this great item it's 18 bucks blah blah blah. He goes Aaron I would love to jump on that I don't have an open to buy. I don't have money. So they get budgets. They get budgets. And then if within their within their autonomy and then if something crazy happens a Sony deal or what what I'm making I'm saying a lot of brands but if it's a really amazing deal they'll go to management and management will typically make an exception say you know what let's borrow from next quarter and we're going to do this with it give it a but I'm just saying generally speaking there are rules of of how you and the other part of selling big box stores which people don't realize is in order for if you go into a store and you want to sell them an item and they say wow we love it blah blah blah they sit with you and they we're going to say we're going to buy it in four different colors and this and that and the opening order is going to be 1.5 million dollars. You're already looking oh wow I'm going to buy my summer home I got my I'm going to be able to buy my make the this and that. There's only one caveat to that. Where are we putting it? Meaning your store. Yeah but I have all these companies on the shelf that's selling already. You happen to be a great product you're of added value I think your colors are great your your quality is better your brand is really amazing your packaging is stunning I want you on my shelf I got no room for you. So what do they say? Okay I have about $300,000 worth of merchandise that is on the shelf that I'm going to have to put on sale or you could take it back and do whatever you want with it. You need to buy the products that they're going to make room for you on the shelf now. >> So either you have to give them markdown money or you have to get to buy the product or you actually have to buy it from them and do something with it so and then they want an end cap which is you know you go into a store and you walk the aisle and there's the head. And end cap is I don't know $5,000 a store for so now we want you to do an end cap we want you to do an advertisement cerebral palsy golf tournament and then we want a 2% defective allowance which basically means just in case someone returns a product we want to know that we're covered. So even if someone doesn't return a product we are deducting two to three percent off your invoice off the top no one returned anything nothing happened 3% off your invoice just in case. Oh we want to do >> not sound easy or almost worth it to get into big box retail. So now when I came just to show you Goodness. >> So you if you sell them six products and I just came out with another amazing product this product is crazy it's gorgeous. Okay Aaron which which one of the six are we pulling out? What do you mean this this selling well well I need room. So fast forward 25 years when I went into the popcorn business I sold the stores my six flavors that I started and we came out with a seventh flavor. So I said to them so I did an analysis so I got this new flavor that you're going to love and based on the sales I think we should pull out you know this flavor because in comparison to the other six this one I think is selling a little bit lighter than the others. The guy's looking at me like I have four eyes. He says I don't I don't understand why why you taking something off the shelf just add it. Add it. Where are you going to put it? You think I can't figure out where to put it on the shelf like I came from a different world. They're not used to these types of sellers. >> Yeah yeah and and and you you send an invoice for a thousand dollars and they pay you a thousand dollars. Wow where's the deductions? Where's the 2% defective allowance? Where's the 3% for my grandmother? What's the 2% for Mickey Mouse? I don't know they I I call it Mickey Mouse money. >> [snorts] >> Because that a lot of the retailers they have a profit center from vendor deductions and vendor expenses. >> relationships with big box retailers and you wanted to bring Popinsanity into what's the common name of a big box retailer that's that you would get want to get into first one. Um >> that you can service. You can handle their volume. ShopRite. No that's small. Well like Wegmans or something like that. >> You you don't have a relationship with Wegmans. You don't know someone who can introduce you. You make that what's the process to get in? How long can it take from that first phone call or email? It's it's a very good question and a lot of the retailers they on their website >> Uh-huh. it says do you want to be a supplier? Do you want to see your product on our shelves? And they have a whole questionnaire. And they won't even they tell you do not send samples. Do not send samples cuz they'll they'll they'll they'll need a warehouse just for everyone sending them samples on a on a Monday afternoon. So there is a process and with the information that you provide to them they do their research. They have people scouts and and and and people studying the marketplace and looking into the various information they have. If they say wow this is a great item I just saw it now our competition or I saw it this is fantastic someone gave it to me a gift. I mean a lot of the accounts a lot many of the current accounts that I'm selling reached out to us because it was they it ended up on their desk for some reason. It ended up on their desk for some reason. And that's the best that's the best it's not even selling and and another piece which differentiates the world that I was to the world that I'm in was the first I would say the first year and a half of our founding of Popinsanity a lot of it was reactive selling. Because the I did my my initial my my my initial launch was the catering halls. I didn't go to retailers because I couldn't afford to sell retailers. I heard it's pay 60 90 days they do pay they don't pay. I didn't I couldn't I couldn't do that I didn't have those kind of pockets. So what did I do? I'm a musician. My partner Yanky is a musician. My other partner Yitzchak Joseph is not a musician but >> Is he a musician in the kitchen? But but he's a musician with numbers >> Numbers okay. and packaging and he has tremendous talents but Yanky and I are musicians and we decided wait a second. Where can we where can we sell this part of? Where can we sell this popcorn that like right out of the shoot we know people. I said wait a second we've been schlepping our equipment through these kitchens of every every catering hall in the in the New New York metropolitan area. Let's start with the caterers. And I would call them and they would they would Aaron you're a drummer what exactly you want to sell me? I don't need drums. No no no long story short I'm in the food business now snap crackle pop. Taste it. Taste it. And that's what we did we went from one hall to the next hall to the next party planner to the next event planner and then ultimately what was happening was the people who were enjoying the stuff that our popcorn at simchas were going into retail stores and say excuse me do you have the popcorn the Popinsanity chocolate pop who? And then they sell it here. And they didn't know what I was talking about. I said get me a phone number get me something you know I'll I'll reach out to them and many of the stores reached out to us um It was it's humbling because it was it was it was it was really because how how things evolved and I think about it all the time. It's not like you know it's not it's it's it was each each and Hashem sent it to Aaron. >> Every day every day you have to be thankful and you have to really understand where it's coming from. And I don't mean to sound like I'm giving a sheer and share bitachon. I'm not. I'm telling you and I mean this very seriously and you you you we've spoken and and and you understand where I'm coming from. It's it's 10% a shadeless or call it 50 call it whatever number you want, but I'm telling you it's it's it's above. It's really really is above because you I can write a book or two. I've seen it. I felt it and we and we and we and we we we we know it. We know it because some things just don't make sense. If you're listening and you can, you should start a daily conversation with a Shabbat talk. I started. I'm excited to talk to you today about United Refuah Healthshare. If you are spending thousands of dollars every single month on health insurance, this is an alternative for the firm community. You should go check them out. It's not health insurance. It's a health share program. Me and my wife and our family, we switched over about two years ago. We've saved thousands of dollars. Our our premium or or the cost is $500 a month. They don't use the word premium because whatever those terminologies meant more for health insurance. But for the first 10 listeners who are watching this video and going to sign up using code blackbird, you're going to get your third month free. So that's something I'm very excited to share with you guys. Make sure to go check them out. United Refuah Healthshare. See you next time. Okay. That's you back in the sales selling into big box retailers which seems like crazy difficult sale. Probably harder than selling life insurance. Now you're running a popcorn company. How did that happen? You have two other partners. What in the world? Tell us the background. It's a loaded question, but I love the question because it always brings me back to how things evolved and it's something that I never want to I never want to keep keep in the in the forefront in the forefront of my mind. Because because basically the company that I was working for was sold. So I was kind of looking for something. At the same time like I mentioned we're musicians and I'm going to try to be as succinct and as quick as I can because it is quite a story, but um one of our common musicians who who knew me, who knew Yanky came over to me one day and he says, "Aaron, maybe you could help Yanky do something. He makes the most amazing popcorn. Like he I think he I think he should sell it." I said, "What are you talking about? Yanky's like one of the best keyboard players I know. What are you talking about with the popcorn?" >> [gasps] >> "Aaron, can I just set up a meeting with you? Talk to him. Let him tell you the story. All I know is the popcorn crazy." I meet Yanky. So cute. He comes with his samples. Beautiful. And I don't popcorn is not the you know the if I have $3 left in my pocket, I'm buying popcorn. I mean What's your favorite food? Slice of pizza? No, I don't know. I'm not such a foodie. >> If you have three bucks, what do you buy? Ramen noodles like I don't know. I never thought of that. I want a slice of pizza well done. >> A good one. Good one. >> Good one. Doug on pizza store, remember that? No, I'm not a Monsey guy. Bar park? Oh, I'm Nuns. I'm Nuns? >> 13th and 48th. Right. >> Pizza time. I grew up on 16th and 48th. So for me it was Doug on. >> Doug on right right right right. >> Best pizza in Monsey. Ronnie's? Right. Oh my god. Are they still open now? >> They're still open. Really? >> Renovated a little bit. I I used to finish school finish school go to my grandmother. She was a a receptionist in a doctor's office. A dollar 25 pizza drink and a fries. >> Yeah yeah yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah right right. Can I know yeah right? >> Doug on pizza store. The best. So this guy introduced it to of us and we we met and I'm eating it and I'm saying, "Wow, you know, this is this is really delicious and it's parve and it's this and that and that." Let [snorts] me think about it and you know, whatever and um I basically started showing it to some friends of mine and they said, "Aaron, this is this is pretty Where did you get this?" Long story guy in the basement. He's playing around. He's I said, "Yanky, where did I I need to understand like you just woke up one day making pop like what?" So he explained to me that he wanted to make a um him and his brother his brothers are fantastic baker and a cook also, but Yanky's golden hands in the kitchen chef worked in hotels cruise ships had his own cheese bakery. My partner is is very very well experienced and very knowledgeable in the food business and they decided to make this little venture. Long story short, they couldn't open the store 3 days before. There was a problem with the building, the landlord, I don't know and they couldn't open up. >> [gasps] >> And this guy told him, "Listen, you put pretty much your life savings into this the the ovens, the ice cream machines, the griddle, the fridge, this. You didn't use it. Crate it up. Send it back to the people cuz you're not starting again another location. You're done." So everybody was so nice and they were so respectful and they they allowed him to take back all the machinery, but there was just one guy who said, "I'm sorry. Final sale. We don't take anything back." And that's the guy he bought a little popcorn machine from. And he wanted to have that little popcorn machine, you know, to have a new you know, it would be nice in the store and you know, whatever. And that popcorn was staring him in the face in his dining room for quite some time and you know, his wife wanted it out and then he decided to make a party and he made some popcorn and then he started to not just a little salt and oil. He started to play with different flavors and just to see what would happen and what happened was obviously pretty crazy and one thing led to another and today we have a popcorn company that sells popcorn all over the United States and parts of the world and it it it happened very slowly. One customer at a time, one product at a time, one flavor at a time, but always keeping our eye on the ball in the sense that we didn't take a salary for a long time which was very very difficult. We didn't um sacrifice on quality of the product just because it was cheaper and we can make more money. We didn't uh if there was a problem something expired in the store didn't want it send it back. Flavors not selling? I'll switch it out. Customer service was always white glove. Everybody knew dealing with Popinsanity is easy. It's not stressful. It's easy. Not always are they right. Not always are we right. Always come to a customer service always make good on what we need to do. What we do with it? And you know something? Sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes my driver will drop off this supermarket's order by that supermarket and that supermarket by this supermarket and you just figure it out. No problem. I will [clears throat] have my guy pick it up. I apologize. Got mixed up on the truck. Honesty, integrity, these are all part of things that are so important in running a business. Okay, you can have the best product. If you're a disaster to deal with after a while people are saying, "You know what? I'll deal with that. I I can't deal with the guy. He's just crazy." Or every time I have an issue it it drives my he drives my people crazy this. So there's so many parts and pieces to running a successful business aside from your actual product or service. You could be the great product or service. If you don't have the right process, you're done. You have a toxic environment. Fish stinks from the head. That's the way it is. The fish stinks from the head. You have two partners who are just nasty people. It goes down. >> It goes downstairs. There's no I've seen it a thousand times. So there's just so many components to being a successful business and Baruch Hashem we we started. That's how Yanky and I met in in in answer to your original question and we built it from there. Well, most people would have said like I have a cushy job with a cushy salary or steady secure. Let me try to find something else instead of So that's why I always say that the people who really deserve the most credit in our particular scenario was our wives. Cuz Yanky was a keyboard player working every night. He had a sound company. So you guys had still something come working at nights? Yeah, but in order to be serious about the business, I can't just there's not a side hustle. You want to grow this thing? It was grueling. It's because it's selling. It's designing. It's the cooking. It's it's do we have insurance, you know, hiring employees and accountants and every part of it I didn't have a guy who handles marketing and someone who handles design and someone who handles back office. You're looking at him. And that that's that that you know, that's the way we rolled and um yeah. What were those early days like? Growing the business. People think So I So I So I lived I lived in Brooklyn at the time. I was I was commuting to Monsey every day. You were guys were making the popcorn in Monsey? >> In Monsey. Okay. And um many a night I slept on a blow up mattress or regular mattress in Yanky's basement. No. Oh, for nights. Uh that's where cuz I would I would I would >> on the floor on purpose or No, you know, that's why I started to say my wife should have said, "Aaron, I know the money you were making before the popcorn. You had a you know, you you were an employee, yes, but you had a steady job, you had steady income. Play with the popcorn on Sunday. >> [laughter] >> What are you doing? You know, there was none of they saw the passion, they saw that we really had something. Whoever we brought the popcorn to was like, "Wow, this is >> Is your wife like the popcorn?" Of course. Of course, I shouldn't need any more, but we don't you know, I'm just saying, you know, the you know, any Well, well, I guess I'm kind of like the guy who owns the pizza shop and goes across the street to get a pastrami sandwich for lunch. >> look at pizza anymore. No, it's just you know, you it's something it's always So, what is it like the shoemaker who walks around with with holes in his shoes? I don't know, there's some truth to that. But, yeah. From Brooklyn to Monsey, slept in Monsey >> because we finished working 11:00. I'm not going to drive home and sleep here. It was it was it was >> [sighs] >> it was a labor of love because we really saw it grow. We saw the reaction to people when there wasn't anything in the space or at least kosher, pareve. I mean, there was not the first person who put chocolate on popcorn, let's get real. But, I believe that we made a pretty, pretty big dent in the in the the concept of taking popcorn, which is just a American pastime, eating movie, whatever, and putting it in elegant, elegant dinners, $2 million weddings, you know, getting requested by very, very large media companies to have our popcorn by movie or television um premieres and and launches. So, it was it was humbling, it was very rewarding to be reached out to by some of the people that I only read about in magazines. How were you paying the bills? I borrowed money. How much? Let's just say like this. Within that period of time I made two weddings. I had a girl in seminary. You make a bass, you're supporting and learning. Help and it was it was it was very, very it was very stressful. It was very difficult. A neighbor of mine just married off a child. He said he spent about between 80 and 95,000. His side. And it wasn't I mean, I went to the wedding. It wasn't a massive situation. It's crazy. Yeah. Wow. So, you have thick skin. You have thick skin. But, you know what? You could only do it with the help of your support system, your wife, your kids, um and with the right partners. A partner is I think you need three and before somebody I know we're talking primarily, let's say, to an employee looking for a job or whatever, but from an employer or somebody looking, let's say, who is an employee but looking to open the to to look into to open their own business, a partner is that you have to be very, very careful with. And why do I say that? Obviously, you're partnering with somebody because he brings something to the table. Either it's knowledge, experience, or cash. There's a reason why you're partnering with otherwise, what do you need him for? I think the three and this is just a parenthetically parenthetically, I think you need three three qualities for a partner. One of them is absolute trust. Absolute trust. Okay, he's a great talker, he could sell snow to the Eskimos, he could sell dead cockroaches to the exterminators. It's all good. >> How do you test it? That's probably a separate that's probably a separate conversation. How do you how do you how do you trust somebody in your life? How do you >> time to build trust. Takes a long time to build trust. >> So, there's repu repu reputations follow people around. Trust, in order to in order to make a partnership work, in my humble experience, is trust, number one. Number two, write stuff down. Like what? What do you mean by that? If we sit down, we make a partnership, whatever items we're going to talk about right now, how much What what what what's my responsibility, what's your responsibility? Go to a lawyer. Okay, you need to tell the lawyer what to write. >> Right. So, discuss at What happened you that you have a kid who's coming out of coil? Is he going into the business? He's not going into the business. >> We don't get along, what happens? All these things write down. So, trust, write down You can't think of every scenario, but write down write down Go to a lawyer just cuz so many so many Yeah, so many conversations I've been involved with, to me sounds very simple. What do you mean? What did you guys agree on? I I assumed he knew, he thought, he said, I said it, he didn't I didn't understand. Guys, why do Right. And the last thing, very important in a partnership, Mevater. Huge. Huge. Because, yes, the agreement says we're supposed to take X and Y, but this one has a sick child and he needs to take money from the business to help. This one's making a chasunah. The other one's buying a house. This one There's always things and changes. If it's What do you mean? We're 50/50. Right. Be Mevater. It's all about the relationship. Understand that if you have a good partnership, the shchina, the ramima shlaima And when we went into this business, we made a promise to our rov, who was on The Profit, that there will be no machlokes in this company. We don't disagree on everything, I could tell you that. But, do we kill each other and then go for dinner and then talk about the family? Absolutely. So, we have differences, we work out our differences, but the minute there's tremendous machlokes, and I don't got to tell you how many companies great companies the families are not talking, the partners are not talking, they're in court, they're in bezdin. We don't talk bezdin, we don't talk courts, none of that. You figure out your stuff, that's where Mevater comes in. So, have a great product, trust your partner, write stuff down, don't leave stuff ambiguity. Is that how you say ambiguity? Ambiguous. You know, my father You know, my father if I would have years ago if I got married, my I asked my father to lend me some money. Written down. My father says, "Okay, no problem. Let's write a shtar." Yeah. I said, "Tal, What?" He said, "The Shulchan Aruch." Otherwise, rip it out and burn it. Throw it out. It this halacha shtar is. Not that he ever asked me for the money, but he taught me a process. Any financial transaction, the Torah wants you to write a shtar. Anything. We selling a property. You want to sell a house, right? You go to a lawyer, you walk in with a stack of documents. So, why wouldn't you lending someone a thousand dollars or you're not going to just have it written up? I lent you a thousand dollars, and you plan on paying me back by this and this day. >> You'll be amazed how many people don't write down basic things, basic things. Just go back Just go back to the paper. What did we agree on? Oh, okay, no problem, you're right. Instead, disaster. Anyway, that's just my my my my If anyone is looking to to you know, find after years of experience, you want to do your own thing, it's not so simple. Just don't get an investor do me a favor. Call a lawyer. Do yourself a favor. A lawyer is you have to Yeah, lawyers are important. >> but it it prevents so much arguments and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk it out and and and address the issues that are important to you and write them down. Doesn't have to be an 80-page document. Write a two-page bullet points, everyone's on the same page, have a nice day. Right. Moving along. Back in the day, was there anything you needed to figure out really, really quickly? Like, oh shoot. Scramble. Like high-stress situations. Probably what what what It would take me time to like really think about that question, but for sure, finances. When you're going from a basement to production where you're selling around the country, around the world, like that you're breaking certain barriers. Like you have to, you know, move into that next step, so. You're signing a big lease. You know, I'm signing now for 5 years. 5 years is a long time. Can we do it? What does the What does the business look like? Are we going to grow? Where would we see is are we going to grow into it? Are we going to grow out of it? If I do take it, what are my options if my plans have to change? I'm that guy. I am that guy. Just just signed a a Optimistic? No, I'm a realistic or I'm a realist. Sometimes people can associate me with being a pessimist. >> Okay. But, I always like to look at what's Oh, this is going to be great. We're going to do Let's buy it. Let's do it. That's great. Worst case scenario, it goes down, what's my exposure? Right. What if if all goes south, what is what am I losing? Oh, you're losing a million dollars. I ain't doing it. Or I'm I'm treading carefully. But, many of the many of decisions that I make, what's the worst case scenario? We lose five grand? I'm in. I look at the ROI, I look at the opportunity, I look at what the upside is versus this. And this week partners come in. You know, Aaron, you're crazy. It's not five grand. It it it doesn't make sense because X Y You know, I didn't think about that, you're right. Right. Or Aaron, I want to put $30,000. Are you out of your mind? Yeah, but look, ba ba ba ba. Worst case scenario, we could sell it for cost, da da da. Let's do it. That's the way we roll. You got very lucky to have amazing partners. Um for my next question, Good Morning America, The Profit with Marcus Lemonis, These are some crazy, crazy PR opportunities on national television. How did this all come to be? And you made a tremendous you know, going on social on national television. Couple of from Joe, you brought your wife onto the show. Even back in the day, Oprah Winfrey, right? That was I think your first one? Right. So, so again, these things it's not like I went out and said, you know what? >> the path Hashem put into action? >> So, one day, me and my partner realized that we're going to be think out of the box. And what do I mean by that? Instead of going exhibiting by a food and snack show our packaging lends itself more to the gift category. I don't just put >> Right. in a plastic bag popcorn, have a nice day. >> Acrylic is glass, wood, embossed gold. You know how we do our stuff Hashem. >> So, we decided, let's try a gift show. Not necessarily a food show, but a gift show. So, we went to Atlanta and there was gift selling Swarovski crystals and Persian rugs and Baccarat butterflies and all kinds of crazy beautiful beautiful gifts and then you have us. Chandelier, beautiful carpeting and really stunning. We set it up nice cuz we had to fit in, but we're selling popcorn. Let's get let's get real. But I said, you know what? Let's take it for a whirl. And it work it worked and Oprah's team was walking the show looking for gifts. And I see I didn't know it at the time who they were. I just see this guy staring at my booth with you know, three or four women taking notes every time he looked the other way, you know, he was taking notes. And he makes his way over to my booth and he starts asking me a lot of questions. Do you have a store? No. You're a distributor? No. You you have a chain of hotels? Like how much what's your capacity? What how many flavors? What is the like like like an IRS audit. And I said, you know what? Here's my business card. And I'd love to talk to you after the show, but I'm a little busy here and this and that. So, we could talk another time. He says, can I talk to you on the other side for a second? I said, sure. But And my partner's like, wait the guy probably went downstairs, printed business cards, collecting free samples from the whole show and then counting his stash when he gets back to the like I had no idea. Cuz they don't wear their names or whatever they wear. >> And he said, okay, I'm so-and-so from O and I What's O? He says, do you know who Oprah is? I said, of course I know who Oprah is. I don't know what O is. That's her magazine. Oh, that's very nice. So, you look for product for her magazine. Yeah, we look for um every year we look for stuff for the list. What list? Do you guys live under a rock? That's what the guy tells me. I said, we went from two Jewish guys in Brooklyn. I have no idea. I'm just I'm just trying to I'm you know, I'm just trying to sell popcorn. Blah blah blah blah blah blah is my card da da da da. We come back to the hotel room. Start Google name and start Google the name. Hopeless guy. Mom is like the gabba. From Oprah. Very you know, he's a great guy. And um there was a process and samples here's and samples there's and samples of Chicago's and samples Madison Avenue's. I say, Yankee, worst case scenario we'll be out a couple of samples. Let's play the game. How long was the process? Probably >> 6 months a year? No, no, no. That was we were there in July and every a much of a Shabbos shuva much of a like from July to September. I got the you've been you you've been chosen by Oprah blah blah blah blah blah and that was the start of a very very interesting process. It was really >> to make sure they can have the capacity? Of course. That was I didn't have a phone system. When you called Pop and Sandy back in the day >> Yeah. Your cell phone. We need a phone system. We need a thing I mean you know, it was in in in in I'm not embarrassed to say it. You know, so so in case you know, whatever. We pulled we we we we we delivered every package that of the thousands that we got we delivered every package. So, even though I just got my phone system or we just got new computers anyway. Um it was it was like a stepping stone to okay, so now we're real and we have to do this. >> a step? Would you say that was like Yeah. Yeah and >> From one level to the next. >> And then Yakov Vershubsky who is very very dear to me who runs like all of my IT take my IT my web my a lot of my design. He literally he was given to me who's a gift fell from the sky literally found him in a 7-Eleven. Um and currently works from Yerushalayim Hakodesh and he's just phenomenal. And my whole my whole team my Chaim Goldberg who runs my my warehouse. You can't find people like this. Can you walk me through that time? September you get the email you've been chosen for the list. What was that react like how did you react? I didn't even know what that meant. Okay. I didn't know what that meant because I didn't understand the list and I I I I I knew I knew we were chosen by Oprah. I didn't know what that particularly meant. >> Okay. Um and then they put us in the magazine and >> you how much to prep for? So, yeah. So, there was certain you you should be chose certain things and you had yeah, there was certain things that we we that we were well, you know, way ahead of our game. We were really ready for it. Really ready for it. Um and that was our entrance into Amazon because I I didn't particularly want to sell Amazon for a number of reasons. Just not my channel of revenue and but for Oprah for Oprah and and that whole team they're not buying they're not coming to Monticello you you know, you how are you distributing out there? So, Amazon got in touch with us. And they set up a whole thing. We had a whole team. So, we were so we were able to sell on the on the on the Amazon page. We were able to sell on our website. There was a lot of um IT related steps and and things that had to be put into place, but Baruch Hashem it was a very very it was a wonderful experience which gave which parlayed us onto the Good Morning America and other TV shows and other opportunities and it was really something that um was was a great feeling, but it was it was nerve-racking because now you're playing in the big sandbox. And playing in the big sandbox you need to know what you're doing and step up. You have to you have to step to the plate and you have to have the right people in place and my team is just everybody from Yankee making the flavors to Yitz Jonathan with the forecasting and the making sure the packaging and and and Chaim Goldberg on the shipping and my girls in the office on the back on the back office. It was it's it's a it's it's it's you need a well-oiled machine with everybody with the same focus to be successful. It's not like not my job. Right. >> 5:00 no no. Got to do it. Everyone's everyone's there till 7:00. Cuz it's got to get done. That's the type of people that I have. Amazing. Baruch Hashem. Now, you have this successful businessman Marcus Lemonis. He has this show called The Profit. Um how do you even get onto that? I mean, that probably brought you a ton of PR. Brought probably you know, a lot of orders. It was it was uh also that was another experience that You got an email. Well, it was press it was a long process. It was a long process. Um the first they they reached out to me which you know, they just said they're they're you know, it's a it's a production company looking for businesses that had certain parameters I guess that they were looking for and we'd like to know if you know, you would like Marcus Lemonis to help you with your business and this and that. So, I responded this one. And that whole process it was was very very detailed very long very long process. So, >> Um I think they reached out in October. I didn't see Marcus Lemonis until February 9th. October, November, December, January February. Oh, wow. Just the just the how they I don't want to use the word vet, but how they make sure that that they're dealing with the right opportunity and then at that point you're not even on. He has to say, okay, now all these companies that made it to the end now is when the game starts. Now I'll decide if I want to work with them. I don't have a I don't have a connection with this type of product or service. I don't want to do that. I mean, he you know, it's it's his time his money or whatever it is and he decides who he wants to move forward with. And Baruch Hashem he found something in what we do and who we are that he did want to move forward with and it was just an amazing experience from the actual filming of it to the the people involved. Every one of his people on the team were just amazing. They really worked together. They were they were easy to work with. And we learned a lot from him. So, it was a fantastic experience as well. Where are you revenue at now? 5 million 10 million? Between 4 and 5 million. 4 and 5 million. Did you track revenue before the episode aired and then like the next 2 months after the episode went live? So so when the episode went live obviously Where did you get the most orders on your website? Yeah. But not only that, the calls that we got. We got calls from hotels that never heard of us before. We got calls from corporations that wanted to try [snorts] a new popcorn brand. It was it was it was a tremendous opportunity for us. It didn't you know take my company into a stratosphere, but it was a tremendous amount of exposure obviously. And but you still have to even when someone calls because they just discovered you still have to make it happen. You still have to So it was it was and then this holiday season 3 days my my website crashed. It's a good thing and a bad thing. You don't want the website to crash, but it's a good sign. Yeah, but it was very stressful. Because you have x amount of days to ship before the holiday. And the website crashed. What do you do? Do you need to upgrade to be able to handle more users? >> So so it wasn't that wasn't the problem because we set ourselves up with the bandwidth to be able to handle, but I'm not sure exactly. There's only one there's only one reason why that happened and we all stayed it wasn't it wasn't Oh my god it was none of that. It was when the Bonnie Shlem wants to turn back on the website. I kid you not. I kid you not. Me and my partners whenever Bonnie Shlem decides that it's he's ready for the website to go back on, that's when I go until then we'll do other things. We'll go night and hour there's a lot of work to do. We do we didn't stress cuz that's stressful. You wait a whole year for the Q4 holiday season and your website goes down. But how do you find out it went down? Like do you get an alert? >> no because the the the orders the orders keep on coming in coming in coming and all of a sudden wait a second. The last order we got was yesterday at 7:30 p.m. It's right now 1:00 in the morning. What happened? And then realizing my guy was working on it from Israel it was it was it was Crazy. It was stressful, but it was we were cool. We were cool. And that and that wouldn't have happened 2 years ago. So I'm I'm I'm happy with the progress that we've all been making and and what it means to be uh a bottle of toffen. There's no there's no other way to describe it because that's stressful. >> You're you're you're thing on a sham. He'll take care of it. Hashlech, right? Hashlech. Um looking at the lessons that listeners can can learn from this conversation. You were in business during COVID, right? How old is Popcorn Supply? 10 years. I was 20 >> COVID made it better or worse? How did it evolve? COVID changed my changed parts of my business to to to a big positive. What's here? Um number one people wanted to stay in touch with their employees, with their clients, with their relationships and they decided that even though everyone's working satellite and everyone's working remote we're going to send gifts to everybody. So I had banks, I had CPA firms, law firms, hedge funds, health care companies sending I mean we'll drop ship a thousand items to this company and 30 items to that company. So it was it didn't stop. Stores if you're not a what do they call it essential you're closed. All right. We were shipping um to all over the United States and we came up with an item that was perfect for COVID. And what was that? Instead of sending somebody a big can of popcorn that everybody sticks their hand in in a conference room or a break room we took a can and we made it in two sizes. A 20 pack sharing tin and a 50 pack sharing tin. And everybody would come portion controlled sealed bag. We'd put the company logo on there. Much of small bags in a big tin. >> And they would come take a bag go to the desk and they know who sent it. Oh, it's from that accounting firm. Oh, it's from this law firm. Huge. >> So we did a lot of that. So it it just opened it was unfortunate obviously the COVID was a very very unfortunate time for many reasons, but specifically what you're asking me it it it shifted how we did things and and it it I want to say we gained from it, but it shifted a type of we started doing a lot of drop ship as opposed to let's say stores. We still sold stores, but we were doing a lot of you know drop ship to remote employees and and such. From everything you know today Now I I I don't want the polished answer. I want the real answer. From all the knowledge you have now and all the experience if you went back to day one what would you do differently? It's a very difficult question. I I wish it was I wish I wish it was it I wish it was an easy question to answer. In other words, some people say oh I went right away and instead of like in my mind instead of you know playing it out and taking the pain I took in a million dollar investor, but I burnt it too quickly and I I >> [gasps] >> I didn't do that. Because I'm such a a a over thinker sometimes. >> Calculated. I'm calculated and I always look at my downside. It's just my cuz I'm too afraid. I'm afraid. You know it's especially if I borrowed somebody I have to pay them back. You can say that the way everything went was perfect. Just as Sham wanted >> my partners I some people say no I wouldn't I wouldn't have picked such an aggressive part I I love my partners. We made decisions in a very calculated way. I'm just really thinking what would I do different? I'm not saying I'm the great guy and I just got it right on the first shot. I'm trying to think of something that I would do differently. Nothing screams nothing screams out. Sham does everything perfect. It really guided me. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I don't even know how I don't even know how to say it. Um uh for those listening the employees that are listening not just let's say founders or business owners if someone wants to grow what differentiates the people who grow fast in a company versus the ones that stay stuck? First thing comes to mind. During Purim we were inundated with orders. I need Purim this past Purim. You got to celebrate. >> I needed to I needed temporary employees. I I needed guys to pack orders. I had a second shift. Otherwise you know Purim was a very early this year. January coming off the the the American holiday New Year's and all that stuff was right here. So there was a very short window. A lot had to be done. I hired some temps some temps. A guy they gave him work to do he finished. So typically I watched how they they finished. On their phone. >> on the phone. This guy comes over to me because during during busy season whether it's Purim time whether it's Christmas it doesn't make a difference. Me my partners we're in the warehouse at night if they're short-handed. I'm stickering things I'm whatever it is. All hands on deck. If there's a truck that a FedEx didn't come or we needed another truck we have to upload the truck with with pallets and pallets of stuff. Me and my partners it doesn't make a difference. Everybody all hands on deck. If you if you drizzle chocolate in the kitchen and that when right now that's where the work needs to be done that's where they are. It's not that it we nobody knows what their job is it's everybody knows exactly what their job is, but there's there's there's a crisis. Everybody's focused. Guys do me a favor for the next 10 minutes all hands on deck here. Boom done. This kid person comes finishes his thing. All of them are on the thing. I expected temps. They did what I asked them to do. Hey boss, I finished this. Could I do something else? I said I was like do me a favor. Can you help me on that? This past Friday I hired him full-time. Taking initiative. Taking initiative you care. Show that this is not just not my uh not my job. I I I do this I don't do that. I'm not saying you should be a schlock shop as in you should be a rug mat and let everybody dump on you. But when an employer sees a guy has toichen and a guy has has responsibility and he wants to learn and he asks questions that's a big deal for an employer. It's not just okay I got a job and then I find another guy who will pay me $8 more an hour or $20,000 more a year and I'm just going to leave. It's it it really it it it it tells an employer a lot about how you how how you operate and and how you get along with people and are you are you a mavater? Mavater is a a thing by me. Because you're right, it is his turn to clean. Right. But he had to leave early. Oh, no, it's my day. It's not Wednesday. Don't worry, go. Take your doctor's appointment. You will switch tomorrow. Right. Just I I I That's a dumb example, but I'm just saying so many things it's just working together that the the the machine stays well oiled. And if a guy is a team player, you go ahead of the line, at least in my book. Team player, you have a great attitude, you come and go when you're supposed to go. Honesty. Big big big thing for me, honesty. >> Honesty. Honesty. Because a lot of people say if I don't say anything, nobody will find out. >> Right. Do me a favor. 90% of the time if you made a mistake, just tell me. 90% of the time I can call the guy and say, "Hey, Whatever. >> you got your your My guy dropped off the wrong thing. Put it on the side. He's coming right back." Instead, don't tell the boss. >> It gets bigger later. Why did you send me? But three stores are now calling cuz they all got the thing and they're all upset versus, "Guys, I know about a problem. We're taking care of it. No problem." You hide it from me, explosion. Right. Tell me the truth. Just tell me the truth. Tell me the good, the bad, the ugly. >> How are you finding all this out in an interview? Someone's going for a job interview. Honesty, taking initiative, >> Okay, so I cheat a little bit. And I don't It's my own thing, my own personal thing. >> I don't say Okay, boom, you're hired. My guy invited in life. Cuz how do you know how do you know how do you know from an interview? I ask you your question. How do you know from an interview? Guy can put on a great show. How do you know? So, what I like to do is I say, "You know what? If you'd like to join, it's an honor to have you. But let's do 6 week, 8 week, 3 month, call it what you want, trial. If it doesn't work out and you walk into my office one day and say, 'You know what? I I I I thought I thought it was I did it.' I don't look at it like you quit. And if you're somebody that is not exactly what I had in mind, I don't look at it like I fired you. We had a dating kind of thing. We had like a trial. See See what what works. In 3 months, we sit down and then hopefully you we're on the same page. My guy invited. We go further in life. >> Right. Versus I can't, you know, so sometimes you got Maybe in bigger scenarios you have to sign a contract with a guy and this and that. There's a lot more vetting and there's a lot more To hire a guy like that it was a 6 8 sometimes 12 month I know guys who hire big people it was a 12 month process. Versus if I hire somebody, in 3 months you know if it is if it's not. And that's it. So, you're saying how do I know by an interview? I don't. I have a good idea. I have a good idea. But you never know. What's next for the brand? I think um it's a fewfold. Um we're going to we're going to do um different types We're We're going to from a packaging standpoint, I think we're going to introduce new items. From a flavor standpoint, we're going to introduce new items. >> flavors you got? 20. Wow. >> And then we're going to We're also going to do uh a savory popcorn cuz so many people want something that's not sweet, that has no sugar. It's not going to hurt your cavities. It's not going to hurt your cavities. Or something just savory. Some people just like savory. Um so, from packaging standpoint to our regular our regular line, we're going to do some really nice things. Savory popcorn, we'll do some nice things. And we're looking to expand the the customer base. So, in other words, whether it be different industries, whether it's a hotel industry, whether it's different types of industries and different types of products. So, it's a it's a big question and it's a lot. So, we want We don't want to bite off more than we can chew, but we're going to with a husband, with a system, with a structure and a process, try to grow as we've been doing thus far. Does every product you sell have a kosher certification? Every. We have three three So, if I see your product in Mexico, I can buy it. Absolutely. Everything's labeled. Do you have regular popcorn or everything's a a cool flavor like chocolate or >> what I'm saying. So, no No, like regular, just salt. No butter. >> I do I do right now you right now we do. We do. For my last question, promise you it's the last one. Unless you give me a good answer that go on a tangent. Someone's never heard of Popinsanity. Look at the camera and sell it. Right there. Popinsanity is a not a popcorn, but if it's something that is a treat, is a dessert, is something that when you when you buy it and there's a lot of flavors to choose from. So, it's not one or nothing. There's definitely a flavor that you will enjoy where it's going to put a smile on your face from the experience of opening the package to smelling the package to actually tasting the package. And most importantly, when you offer your friend, watch his expression and you'll be a rock star. Okay, that's pretty good. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Now, before you finish close out this episode on YouTube or Spotify or wherever you're listening, uh I just want to share something really quick. If you make over $300,000 a year as an employee, I'd potentially love to have you as a guest on the podcast. That being said, if you're on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel. We want to hit a thousand subscribers. Thank you for listening. Hope you enjoyed and I'll see you next time. >> [music]