🎙️ Episode 10: “90% of Money Is Emotional: The Psychology Behind Your Financial Stress”

What if I told you that most of your money problems have nothing to do with math? On this episode of Jewish Grit, we peel back the layers. We're sitting down with Simmy Mandelbound, the one and only Orthodox Jewish female financial therapist in the United States. Get ready for some serious insight this week on Jewish Grit. [Music] Can you just tell everybody what you do and then how you got into this profession? I am a financial therapist. I could stop there because that in itself is unique. I'm a financial behavioral specialist, financial counselor, financial coach. And just to give you some insight to date, I am from what I know the only Jewish Orthodox woman that has the certification. >> And you have your own company. What is it called? >> Prosper Financial Wellness. We leave out the E. No excuses. >> So, how did you get involved in financial therapy? >> My original degree and forte was fitness dietitionian. That's what I went to school for. I was pretty good at it. And life gave me something different and unique challenges. And I wasn't able to end up staying in the relationship I was in with my five children. So I ended up finding myself a single mom with five for quite a number of years. Money stress was my companion. >> Oh gosh. >> It was just there all the time. I had to figure things out. How do you become smart with your money? What do you do? And then I remarried a wonderful man. I thought life was all perfect. He had income. I had income. Life's good. And yet the financial and money stress didn't go away. It just changed. And now we were arguing over different things. So, for example, we'd go to the gas station and he'd pick up pre-washed grapes in a big cup. And I'd be like, " $7.50 for pre-washed grapes? Who buys pre-washed grapes for $7.50?" And he was like, "We have $7.50 in our account. You know that, right? I'm working. Is that you know what's the problem?" And and I just kept on getting frustrated and I didn't understand myself. I did have $7.50. So what was bothering me? And it just we kept on starting to really I I started not appreciating him as much and started losing respect for this man that I really loved. And so I was like, what is going on here? And I went back to study the psychology of money. Prior to that, I looked around for help and there wasn't anything. There were great budgeting places. There were ability to figure out how much you're earning and how much you're spending, but nothing to tell you about what money means and why is it still causing stress if there is some in the account. So, it's interesting. You say you went to go study the psychology of money? Explain that to me. Like, is there a certain course that I'm unaware of? A certain degree that I'm unaware of? I'd love to know where you learned the psychology of money. Being in a second marriage, brand new, and having money stress, I reached out for help. And wherever I reached out, they were like, "Well, if you have money and blah blah blah, then it all works out." And I'm like, "No, something's missing. I'm telling you, I'm acting crazy. I'm something's wrong with me." I was certain that I recognized that I'm bringing something to the table that's traumatic for me or or triggering for me. So, I wanted to understand it. So, I looked into psychology, right, into what behavior am I bringing to the table? What's affecting me? >> And then I found >> this course as a financial therapist through Kansas State University. >> And it was it's on par to be a financial planner. >> I personally did not finish my degree simply because I didn't want anyone to think I have vested interest in their money. Mhm. >> People trust me with their money because I don't tell you what vehicles and I don't make any commission. I make the same amount of money whether you're wealthy or struggling. >> I love >> my goal is aligned with the client's goal. My money goal. >> Wow. So, there were two things that you said that I just I love. Accountability that you took accountability in that relationship and you said I saw my part in it and so then you went and did something about it. And then I love that angle that you come in to the profession and with your clients, they could really sense how authentic you are and that you're really there for them and not their money cuz it's an it it's an equalizer. That's what you're saying. You're coming in, it's equal. Doesn't matter who you are, what you have. Um, this program is for you. What I offer is for you. I love that. So, give me some psychology about money. Break it down for me. Like could you give me some like >> first I want to go back to what you said. >> Oh yeah, for sure. >> The fact that I come in and you said I come in and I'm an equalizer. >> Yeah. >> What's interesting is that people think that money is about numbers. >> They believe 1 plus 1 equals 2. What else is there to know? >> Money is 90% emotional. >> 90 and only 10% logical. M >> so if if you don't to bring this home I could have three clients that live on the same block earning the same amount of money and each of them spend it in a different way. One of them has savings, one of them's in debt and one of them are just coasting along. Why is that? Because it's not about a number. It's about what I believe I should do with my money that's going to make me use it in a certain way. What are my values? What are the experiences? How was I brought up will all impact the way I use money much more than 1 plus 1 equals two and this is a logical decision. Can you what would let's take that example. What is the psychology behind somebody uh if everyone makes that same amount why would somebody have more less in debt? A money mindset is something I call a money mindset. And what these money mindsets it's the subconscious in our brain. So we're not even aware of it. And we have this money mindset that comes from our culture, ethnicity, religion, our community, our experiences, all of this shape the way we look at money and what we take out of it. So if maybe when I grew up money was a stress and because it was a stress I wasn't able to buy things get toys or get what my friends got then either when I grow up I will follow that tra trajectory or do the exact opposite very very infrequent do we have the middle path that works just right >> so it's all based on what we saw and what we took from that and now we somehow come with an idea of what we want to do with our money >> it's not conscious >> now As we build these beliefs, we somehow get them ingrained and we see the lens through that the world through this lens and we believe this is how money should work. That really could work out sometimes good, sometimes bad. But guess what? When you get into a relationship, someone else brings their whole other money script in. Now you've got two money scripts that usually don't go hand in hand. Because if someone, for example, grew up where money was a stress and they grew up with a lot of frugality and tightfisted, they may want to marry someone who's maybe more generous and spontaneous. And they're so happy to marry someone exactly like they want until they show up in my office. And when they tell me, I say, "What about your spouse do you admire?" And they say, "Oh, generosity." I know that's the stress. >> That's what they're there for. Because now what I thought I wanted now it looks very different when I actually get it and it's in real life it's completely different. So then how how do you work it out? How do you do it? Like what do you talk to them about? >> Oh, you want to know the secret sauce, don't you? >> Of course. >> Well, first it's interesting because we have something called a discovery session before we start with the numbers. And we work with numbers, we work with emotions, and that's how we help people. And in that discovery, there's nothing about numbers. I'll ask them, "Tell me what money was like when you grew up." They'll each give me their the way they saw their life. And then I'll ask them if you if you had if they have children or they don't have children, if someone was peeking into your house, what would they tell me you and your spouse if they're married, you and your spouse, what does money look like now between you and your spouse? And suddenly they're like, "Wow." Like we wouldn't want someone really to talk about how it's looking right now. maybe we have stress or and so what happens is as that discovery is going on and they're talking about what money was like and they hear their spouse talking about it what money was like for them they may have heard it but when I'm putting when I'm listening and I'm able to a ask or be curious about certain scenarios they hear it completely different and I've had so many times where at the end of a session someone will look like a guy will turn and be like I can't believe I'm doing the exa I I can't believe I sound exactly like my father >> I I can't believe it. I thought I'll never be like that or I I I don't realize that this is really a struggle for me. Like I knew I was frustrated but I didn't realize how much this is affecting me. >> So there's so much wisdom and when they get that this is emotional. These are triggers. Money is the number one source of stress across America. 77% of Americans are stressed about money. >> And and what do you find in the Jewish community? The Jewish community has its own set of rules and and it's so unique because we have values as a Jewish person. We value Jewish education. >> Go tell someone that even though money is tight, I'm going to put my kids in public school. No one's going to do that, right? The Jewish values. We have values of charity regardless what you're earning. We started putting charity after income because they see it as a given. It goes directly off their income. I don't see that in other cultures. Not necessarily is that available for them. There's a bigger picture to money in Judaism. There's a spirituality component. There's an understanding that we do ours, but ultimately God has his own plan. We show up as best as we can. And we have a book that tells us the book of life isn't just about being financially successful. Financial peace of mind doesn't mean that I have tons of money in my account. financial peace of mind may be just that I'm okay knowing that my money isn't so available right now because I have a bigger value because I'm raising a family because I want to help others. It's okay not to have a big number in the bank account. I I I love what you said about our value connected to charity. So it it is something that we really as a Jewish people we ingrain in in our children in educating them that charity is really important. Bringing up kids I love to say three S's. >> Okay, let me hear it. >> Some for now, some for later and some for someone else. >> Oh, I love that. Say it one more time. I love that. >> Three S's. >> Some for now. Enjoy it. >> Okay. Some for now. Enjoy it. >> Some for later. Let's put it away. >> Some for later. >> Delayed gratification is a great tool to learn always in life. and some for someone else. Let's shear. >> Shearing is caring. When you take a child and have them actually purchase something for someone else, buy a gift, go to a hospital, do something that they feel, there's there's that's our that's our like our soul talking, our soul being happy to do it. It's an amazing feeling and amazingly there's actually science behind that shows that we have a level of satisfaction giving others more than giving to ourselves which means when they did a study to see if a person gets $10 more or I think it was I forgot the number they used in the study and they had all the people across some of them got something for themselves some of them did something for someone else they were able to do whatever they want with the money when they came back the level of satisfaction was greatest by the people who gave to someone else. >> Going back to when you said that you were trained as a fitness >> instructor and but it really if you think about it, let's let's break that apart a little bit and dissect it. You're really still doing fitness. >> Yeah. You know what the truth is? A lot of the analogies I use are predicated on walking by a bakery that smells so delicious, you know, you don't want to gain weight and yet you go in and buy it, right? >> I'm at fault myself, right? Or or sometimes if a client will find out I was ever in that industry, they'll be like, "No wonder." You're like, "Okay, great. You're doing fabulous. Just a little more." Oh, yeah. Like, I guess, yeah, it comes through it because these skills are used in every way. And I just brought it out into money. And let me tell you, I was never good at math, >> but money is something that was important. And I discovered through my healing process or through the psychology of money or through this education that it was triggering and it was traumatic for me and I had to heal in order to be able to appreciate and be okay and open to and it's it's a process. Guys out there, whoever's listening to this, my singles, my marrieds, it's triggering and it's normal. It's normal because money is an emotion and it's the biggest emotional trigger. M >> they talk about relationships that you can say I love you within 9 months and not talk about money until about 14 months in. >> Then you mentioned that you had to heal yourself. >> Can we go there for a second? >> How did you heal yourself? What did you he have to heal yourself in that area? >> You know, maybe I shouldn't say heal. Maybe I should say I'm still on the journey. >> Okay. Because honestly, I don't know if I would tell anyone that you have something inside you and you'll be healed forever after, >> right? >> But what was it was I was triggered or what was difficult for me is learning my money mindset. My money mindset is security. >> So that means I like to have a stable. I love stability. I love knowing what's coming in. Even though as a mom young I was my own entrepreneur but I only did it but predicated on what I would get at a regular job like I didn't take a lot of risk I needed that security to know what I was earning how I was earning that's important to me >> isn't that most women are like that >> actually not necessarily but you know what if you have that then we both share the same >> I guess cuz I think >> there are many I guess that's why I think most women are like that I don't know >> but I've and you know what I was so certain That was true that I remember once I got a phone call from someone a financial adviser and he said to me, "I have a client that just got a $100,000 bonus >> and he doesn't want his wife to know and he wants me to invest it. What are your thoughts on it?" >> And I was certain that every woman would want to at least know. Maybe they'll be just so happy. Maybe they'll they'll they'll talk about it. It's something that you you you together a relationship it would really solidify something together. You're doing something. And I said and the the guy said to me, the financial adviser said, "You know what? The client doesn't want because if he tells his wife, his wife's going to use it all up and he wants to put it away." So I said, "You know what? Let me think about it." And that day, my poor husband, because I do this, I'm a little unique in that way. I went to the boardwalk and I went to a few little towns and I started asking random people in the streets. I'm curious if your husband earned money, would you want to know about it if he earned a bonus? And then I would ask them questions like if they said yes or no. I would say do you work? Do you have anything to do with money in your house? I wanted to try to get a sense because in my head I was certain. Again, my bias said sure you tell your wife. >> I'm biased. And what I found out that many women didn't want to know. They were very happy not to know anything about money. My husband takes care of it. Whatever he does, I'm good. The longer I'm in it, the less I know, >> the more I see how many unique understandings there are. So, going back to my healing journey. So, that was that was important to me. >> And I got married to someone who has a much more easygoing, laid-back personality that had his own business and money would either be feast or famine. And that cycle was was difficult for me. And so I was hogging the money because I didn't want I wanted to protect it. And his way or his thinking was we have it. Hashem gave it to us. God gave it to us. Enjoy it. >> Spend it. >> God will give it to us again. >> Don't worry. And I was like, he's wrong. I'm right. Maybe he's right and I'm wrong. And it was so confusing, >> right? >> And I had to understand where is he coming from? Why is he like this? How did he grow up different than I grow up? Why does he think this way? What does it matter? How will I help myself? There was so many thoughts that went through my head and going through this doesn't mean that now I'm healed and I'm easygoing and laidback and trust me being in my profession. I'm a business owner again but this time I have people working. I have payroll. I have things I have to I have a bigger company that's terrifying for my money mindset. But there wasn't anyone there. There wasn't anyone doing this. I wanted to help our culture. I wanted to help the world to be have this opportunity available. There are only 300 of us across North America. I'm the only Jewish person doing this. >> Wow. >> And I wanted to be able to help. So, I did this against my money mindset, against what's strong to me. Why? Cuz I am Jewish. I have that feeling, God, I'm showing up and you'll help me. I believe I try. You know, they they talk about in relationships like there's uh um different attraction styles, right? So, are there set money mindsets that you could share? like are there like a certain three four that exist? >> So there's something called money scripts. There are four main money scripts but I love to work with money mind money habitudes. Money habitudes and you can look this up online as well. We've got six main habitude styles money mindsets. It's security >> okay >> spontaneous carefree giving planning and status. and they don't really mean what they sound like because status, >> right? Status is like, "Oh, I'm not status. Status is bad." Status is someone that's emotionally in tune to knowing what's going on. They're the types that really know how to get the right gift for the right person. That's the the advantage of a ch of a status person. The challenge of a a status person is they may spend money when they can't afford it to keep up a presence. >> Those are the people, you know, when they walk in, they have a presence with them. >> Yeah. When we talk about carefree, carefree are wonderful people. They're easygoing. They're You tell them plan B, plan C of the day, they're cool. You tell them let's talk about money or let's talk about prick projects, they shut down. >> They can't do big. They need to have smaller segments. >> So there's an advantage and challenge of each one of these money mindsets and certain Yes. We get attracted to different money mindsets. >> So I have a question for you. >> Oh, go ahead. >> When you started this business, >> Yeah. You know, we talk about Jewish grit. Where do you see the grit in your profession? >> Every step of the way. >> Okay. >> Because anything in what I'm learning, I'm asking people that are not even in in our in my world or my community or understanding my values. So, every step of the way is grit. Um, I very often feel this business is not quicksand but mud and I'm working out all the time on how to help different types of people. I finished college I thought I had a great way of helping people and I started working with people and then I noticed that there was a hole in I wasn't getting to some of the people. Remember my biases um security mindset I figured out a system for people like me. What happens to people not like me? You think people like me are coming to me? People like me are probably not coming to me because they're so they have it all together, >> right? >> So now I have to get into the head of someone else and help them. That's grit, >> right? >> Trying to get out of my head or getting out of my head and really understanding someone else's way of living to be able to support them on their journey. And that is grit every day. And this business is constantly evolving to so I can better support all income levels, all styles, all abilities to be supported on this. >> Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Simmyi. >> Thank you. >> That was really very educational and I'm sure our listeners are going to feel the same way and it was great to meet you. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you for listening to Jewish Grits at Ol mentorship podcast. At Olam Mentorship, we believe that everyone needs a mentor. What better way is there to tap into your personal and professional potential than with a Jewish mentor at your side? Learn more at olam.org/metorship. And don't forget to keep listening on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.