Ep. 54: Shortly After Discovering the Rebbe, He Was Contributing To Chazarah with Rabbi Eli Touger

everything, all the these things. Yeah, the Reb pushed it, but the Reb said something, Bakrin thought how to apply it and we got it done. And that changed Lubage into like, oh, when the Reb says something, he means it and we mean it. We're going to try to get try to make it happen. And it was it was semi- new at that time. I mean like no people have been talking like this but they never did it. Now we did it. I'm Yasi Cayman. Welcome to among an ongoing faban about life as aid our vibrant connection with the Reb and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. Shalom. Rabbi Tower. How are you? >> Borasham Borash. >> Okay. Thank you so much. >> My pleasure. >> I am very curious. Uh I know I I know much about you through your works. There's the sikas in English and the Rambam and many other projects. I I'm not so familiar with uh your background and I'm curious u you weren't born doing in English, right? So how so what what was the uh what was the story where where were you from and how did you uh how did you start coming to where you are today >> okay look all stories are stories family comes from Barissv has a long history in Labavich [clears throat] it's a small town about 50 re out of out of mins don't ask me what a reus is but it's about um a kilometer or Well, so Bruss is a small town 50 vs [clears throat] from from Minsk. It was a town sha is a well-known mashp. My family grew was there for many generations. I've got a total or from my from my altaza ranges real the roots the core that said >> that's so interesting >> our family came to America in 1905 1905 when you came to America there was no official in America there were kabad shools all over the place unfortunately most of those kabad shuls are no longer kabad shuls shoes because there wasn't any official uh leadership really until the freed came a couple years before that slightly but not really with Jacobson came but as such there wasn't that much much background forus so the family became American I grew up conservative you know strongly right-wing conservative Jew in Long island. But you know, we we knew of Torah Mispus. We kept a lot of it and we didn't keep a lot of it. It's about the best that's the nicest way of saying it. I grew up I grew up in [clears throat] 1960. I mean, born 1950, grew up grew up quote unquote 1960s. I don't have to tell you what what was going to America at the end of 1960s. It was a whole >> Did you have any uh kabad kabad identity at that point or none? I mean, you didn't know at all growing up. >> And my grand my father I remember driving through Crown Heights at one point. We were going to Brooklyn for what for whatever purpose. My father points to 770 and says, "We come from here." But he didn't tell me anything more about that. He didn't that just he said, "We come from here." And I didn't understand what he meant by that. He didn't want to explain it any further, I guess. And uh he left us he left with that uh cryptic statement. So in in I metum >> when you were like a teenager >> at that point right before age 20. At that point many Americans were looking searching. This is, you know, the the Reba spoke more than anybody else really about and definitely in the Jewish world about looking for American searching youth. Like I wasn't hearing those secrets at that time, but yeah, he was speaking about me and my generation. Like the Jewish American youth at that time, we were fueled with the the 60s was was full of idealism, full of energy, wanting to change. On the other hand, no direction. A lot of people were turning east. I have many friends who went to India, China, Japan looking for roots, looking looking for purpose, looking for for meaning. Having grown up with a strong Jewish heritage, I felt my people before I start looking in foreign fields, my people owe I owe it to my people to look there first. >> So that that was your own like your own decision before I hear from others that first they went to other places and then they went to look in their back pocket so to speak. You're saying you on your own >> this way. I did a little bit of of of look in the other pockets but I really felt that look I went to Colgate University. Kolkata University is a very special place. One of the teachers there in Colgate was he was a guy who he studied Hinduism by spending two years in India. He studied in Zen by spending two years in a Zen monastery. He told me and he taugh and he taught me don't just get caught up in a fad, you know, swayed by a current. You want to do something, do it right. Study it from the inside. Let it take time. And hey, if I'm going to spend a serious amount of time looking somewhere, you start, you don't go somewhere else first. You go home first. That was a very clear realization. Why go somewhere else? He told you before he told this professor. >> No, actually he actually he told actually he told me that you know again this is very curious that people didn't ex people said hints didn't explain it. You know you're Jewish you're looking for spirituality why don't you look intoism this Lavich and he didn't tell me what Lavich was. It didn't really excite me very much this idea of because I you know any everybody who I mean who's grown up in secular America thinks that some something very background you know 18th century 19th century definitely not 20th century so we didn't really when he said citizen no wasn't very interested so but you know he yeah he actually did say look into Um but it wasn't it wasn't him per se went to Israel just to look around and slow I met Kabad there and they invited me to yeshiv to fabad for Shabas. It was a little bit of an approach avoidance conflict because on one hand I recognized that it was something real. On the other hand, it was very different. I mean, very, very different from the lifestyle that I was used to. And I had to think seriously whether I was going to actually make an experiment for this or not. Decided give it two weeks and then and then two months to see if it's going to sit sit comfortably become real for me or not. So what was happening then? They had the bal yeshiva there like what was going on? >> They had a regular yeshiva the rega which is still there now and then rabbne uh had a balshua program. I was lucky because I knew Hebrew both. I again I went to a very good conservative school. So I learned Hebrew as a kid. I've been in Israel six, you know, close to six months. So my Hebrew got better. So I was able to semi-integrate into the regular yeshiva pattern like uh my a lot of the classes I went to most like I like I looked up to to Rabbi Gaffne and the Vuva people as somewhat of you know guidance and the place I felt most comfortable with because the Israelis were definitely a different breed. That said, you know, I could I could study with them, you know, it I knew the language. The Gammora was something new, but not something impossible to study. I mean, that's really like a very fundamental point. Gamora is actually very easy and people can pick it up. they get out of the illusion that this is difficult and realize that this is easy, they can pick it up. >> One second. You you realize that coming in fresh because I think some people in yeshiva their whole lives are not convinced that Gamarra is easy. >> Yeah. Because they because they look at it that way. It becomes self and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. [snorts] When you look at Torah study as easy, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And when you look at it as difficult, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other words, hey, I raised my kids in Israel. That's a whole second story, but but I raised my kids in Israel. They were learning Gammorra at age 10. Now again, my kids are are are somewhat gifted, but they had classmates in the who weren't so gifted and they were also learning more at age 10. It's not so simp. It's not something out of the question in the ordinary in Israel. Quite the contrary, it's common. So if a 10-year-old can can study this page and understand it, a 20-year-old who's been through acade some academic background and training can definitely understand it. And on the contrary, those people who don't don't really want to. And I did. You know, my attitude was if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to do this as a secondass citizen. this is studyable. I can study it and I did. >> So let me ask you um so when you're coming to and you're seeing the the you're seeing you're seeing what is it that I mean there's there was a search here right? So what is it that you're searching for and what is it that you're finding there? Look, first of all, what we're s what I was searching for, what not an I, but I say just about every BU Chuva is searching for is a way to integrate your own spiritual desires, your own spiritual feeling, your own desire to come close to Hashem with your actual everyday life, how you live in this world. Now I won't say that every person in Fraabad was an exemplar of that. I wish I could but you know but everyone was semi trying in that in that goal in that direction. I got to to see Schlom Kessleman. He was an exemplar in a in a very real way. I don't I mean you know there are different approaches among mashiam not everybody venerated in the same way that the people in Farabad did at that time but hey this was a person who deds he had real feeling in his labing I didn't but many did watch him from his he would he would go to the yeshiv would go to the yeshiva attend davening in yeshiva then go home and davenin I didn't go I wasn't among those who went went and watched him him through a window at his house while he davened many other did did but he would din for hours he would sing and dance in his davenining it was in other words here you had a person who for him Judaism was not just a religion quote unquote. It was a fire. It was real. And he was there. There were others not quite on that level, but exemplers, people you could learn from. And I was willing to learn. And that that's one of the f the first things When it comes to yeshiva, you have to say, "Oh, this is something that I want. I want to see the see this. See if it's real for me. See how I can make it real." So I look for at people who it's real for them. So there there were many people inabad who had that. So at a certain point in [clears throat] you, you kind of migrated into the regular yeshiva. Is that what that what I'm hearing? >> Well, more or less from the beginning. >> It's like you had a relationship with the >> somewhat but not really he was much a he he was he wasn't so aail he was sick most of the time. He this he he passed away six months after I entered yeshiva. He was and he was he was back and forth in the hospital. So I didn't really get a chance to get a personal relationshipship with him. Well, my personal relationship was a lot with Raviano Katz. Yankov was very he was the ma mashk of sedan nigler a very special y mameish you know like I can tell you like a guy who knew how to learn loved learning I'll tell you a story that I had my I sent my son also toabad he learned under Revy as well. Very was close to Ryan. Was cute. Ryan never told him about the clo my he never told my son about the close relationship that he and I shared. But you know he obviously gave my son certain special attention. So my son wasn't wasn't great at keeping seder but he loved learning. So we come to Diana with questions and learning. So this is a deep point. You know something I got to take time to think about it now. It's sad to don't have quite time much time to to learn it over. When I go home at night I'll look into it. You'll probably look into it at night also. If if you call me before before 11:00, I'll be happy to discuss it with you. After after 12 was difficult. I used to be able to take calls and I I used to study to to one, but now I'm 80 years old. Can't I can't do it. I can't do that anymore. Think about how listen how Ba hears that how small he feels. That was the type that was the yank rebanko was. I mean this is like a aid at Galerent and he loved learning and he spread that and anybody who took him seriously picked that up. Now that's something unique and then of course there was I I studied personally under Mati Ashkanazi the rabbad this was a genius of a guy used to come to Shia and like roll off aim I don't think he prepared this is stuff that he was saying from memory And he just had one after the other learning kaducma here. here. It was just you know the guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy was brilliant encyclopedic but also a very effective teacher like he's he was it was a blatier rashi toos carefully each kamora each each line of rashi each line of tomos explained and ends peppered with acronim and acronim. He taught you the basics and then how to expand the basics into deeper thought. You know, you know, again, I want to say it openly that wasn't it didn't have the flavor, the intellectual flavor that Kabad really is known for. To put it bluntly, they were interested in teaching you, inspiring you how to davin. I mean, I didn't hear teach. Mhm. But I was told that even that he would the skull pieces of fast and then take out a small to fetch the aoda in they were very emphas they were g they're putting a high emphasis on davening which is again very important has to know how to daven but he also has to learn with what to dab in and just you know being inspired. Oh, there's a classic story. One of the doub and he was a simple person. His fellow asked him, "What are you doing doing back in four hours?" And he told them, The the one the one of has got to be the in your inner being and that's why with the four hours now one of that's very inspiring. On the other hand it's a methodical process where you review ideas the emotion springs from the intellect. It's not just a emotional charge. I want to come close to Hashem. So that was a little bit lacking in front like as a vuva I was in every vulta is into that emotional charge but having been being fed that on a constant basis I felt a little bit um hey there must be more to to this so I wasn't I was pleased because again this is it was this was rich it was RNA which is an American Kenya. You know, we never I was never exposed to this. you know nobody taught this this on on the other hand the intellectual development of it was kind of lacking and I felt that missing and also like the next and the next point is al they keep they kept telling us rebi revi revi and like I see you know it's cute but rebi is in New York I'm an American so what am I doing in Israel you know like it became very clear to me that if if this is what we're based on, go to the source. And so after a year and a half inab, you know, I wanted to stay there long enough that I felt I could walk into 770 >> as one of the guys, not just the guy learning. So you so basically so and they say so you come in and you see everyone's talking about the so so what are you guys doing here the inb's in New York so that's that's what propelled you to actually go there's one personality inabad that you didn't mention yet is did you have a connection with him >> mendel didn't get toad until I left men got toad Giml spent a lot of I have a very personal relationship with men from touching lad when I was in in lament when I was inas in Cleveland but I'll get to that I'll get to that later perhaps but uh then that he he he got toad in passed away in infection lammed. He had just gotten to England at that time and he came to uh when you see this told the he looked at the I've never for you know I was always dealing Those are the Reb's words to him. He told me those that personally. In other words, he felt that he was really that was you know this wasn't his job. The Reb wasn't saying that you really you're really plastic for but there's be an example for the you know an example for the to look at that you'll see so yeah but that that but he came to I had already I left so so I missed him. >> Yeah I got it. So you decide that you need to go to the source, you need to go to 770, but you first you want to be prepared and be able to jump right in. So that's kind of what you were doing at I guess. So you then so then you arrived in 770. You said B already right after >> and you came to learn you came to learn in 770. I come in make see the walk into my make that's things start from there >> okay so go start I'm ready so what happened when you came top the day after purim what tell me about that experience >> look so being accepted in 770 was like I had a pic from nhiva but after they never had balas coming into 770 straight. They had people who were raised in the above. Yeah. Yeah, they had a couple from way before who got into who who who went to Lavish high schools as kids and so they grew up in the they grew up in the system that a guy you know 20 years old I learned and um I'm now here I can learn take me to yeshiva it was revasin was like um I see you he looks at my settle It's like I I see that you they want they want me to take you in, but I don't know. Um why don't you try harder Torah? And I said, "No, I'm not I'm not interested in hard Torah. I've able to learn just with to learn with the best of the Bum that you have." You know, it was back it was a little bit back and forth. Luckily that year that was B at that point was that was now there other since then but that was a lot of people from came in. So you know the people who knew me from Praabad were able to convince David to accept me and uh no especially at that time directly after after Pesak that year they opened and they needed you instead of having the Z down as it is now downstairs 770 they opened Torah So nothing wanted to go there. I mean nobody wanted to go there >> right they never spoke about it then yeah >> yeah and I had I wasn't so sensitive to learning 770 at that point. So I was you know okay this is where you're supposed she wants you to go you go and so because because of that you know I got close to who like that was part of that was his project to a certain s of so like and also was was a very interesting person because he again he was review. >> Yeah. This was like you know what you you know the whole method of of learning a rush seeo which if you l in which is which is left from him picked that up he took it also toronim and he was like very interested in conveying this to somebody there weren't too many people were interested in learning from him what can I tell [laughter] you this is like you There's there were pe there were people who learned in in France you know the peasants the vanskis yden who commonlins people would would learn the goldbergs people who learned in France nor shivas there they had a schmittan nigler which was this and they were the bal nigler of 770 a couple of Israel ies who because of the familiarity in in is of Israel they also were baliga but no no Americans were balig they didn't they didn't like it >> and men was very happy to find somebody who who was interested in in listening to him and he was he had a very solid way of teaching you how to term. You know, you you want to learn to learn how to learn an AON, he was amazing, methodical, slow where he how, you know, to see to show you how Katos works to show you, you know, it was just very beautiful to watch and learn from. I don't know why other other people didn't get excited by it. I did. I was going to say I heard a lot of people talk about Abik. I don't I haven't heard such a analysis of his like I'm hearing from you. >> Look was a father to Brim. He used to care for didn't have any children of his own. He used to care for for Bakim as his own kids. Really know if he felt you know if he didn't have a coat or men noticed that you know things like that he he was very careful about and every knew him for that. never knew him for you know his for the I mean beautiful story I I was once giving a a shir or whatever in in a conservative sh in New Jersey the rabbi of the of the shul was in New York he picked me up we drove to we drove to New Jersey for an hour together talking to him he says you know why do invite me with I'm kind of interested in this. What what sparks your interest? Well, I went to for Bangan once. Oh, really? You know what? What sparked your interest? After all, you don't understand Yiddish. Yeah. I'll tell you what really what really sparked my interest. There was one man tall slight a little bit heavy set standing by the reba and he stood there with absolute intention [laughter] like a soldier focused totally on when I said if somebody if I saw a person who could have such concentration by watching the rev how that happens interested And that's why I was interested and that's what was interested >> just by being who he was. >> But yeah, you know, it's really unfortunate people didn't understand him as a teacher. Again, that's in general that Americans never never picked up on learning nigla. the American you saying >> still is. Yeah. >> So um okay so you were you were like in in you mentioned earlier that when you were that there was a lack of I don't know what the word is but the was more in the aspect of it and there's more to it. So I imagine you met Abiel in in in 770. Uh no I I I had friends I really at that time he didn't give Sherman 770 private people used private buckram used to come to him him at home and elsewhere didn't he didn't teach in 770 at that point but he taught in in Ocean Parkway there was a kuts of Baham 770 who went to who was sent to Ocean each year to be kind of semi there wasn't there wasn't a term then but that's today that's idea of sending that same that same concept so there's a buck was sent there and yo would come to do parkway to teach so I realized that if I wanted I wanted to hear yo and I wanted to and I therefore I wanted to get to go to Oan Parkway. Luckily, I had a very, you know, because of my relationship with Ray Menlick, I was able to sort that out. He was he did that for me and I remember the the first class gave was nothing special. I mean, you know, said a mimer, touched it, said it, touched it, you know, touched it, but nothing special. Second class we're learning about your diet at that time and the point that he was he was teaching was see the ore which is which enclos itself self in the in the caim the inner dimension of the of the ore is hid and da and only the outer dimension is revealed and he and he started to explain that that he asked the question forget exactly the question but it was he asked the question and wanted bham to answer it now most of the guys were like they knew was playing with them they didn't want to answer because he's just playing with But I wanted the class to move. So he's waiting for an for somebody to answer. So I'm not impressed. He's embarrassed. You know, he'll probably shoot me down, but who cares? Let's get this Let's get the show on the road. >> So, and I had actually learned the mimer which was focusing on that same subject that morning. So I repeated exactly what it said in that mimer. So Ravil says yes that's you know there's nothing wrong with what you're saying but there's a logical development that's lacking from that that you take you got to go this point and that point and then you know so how do you deal with that I didn't have any answers to his question and guess have any answers nobody else had any answers and he went then he went around so gets back to my original question And so so so people were playing with him again again there was still a degree of you know like he he's pushing you okay somebody's got to say something he goes further anyway ultimately finally he he start he start he starts you know pushing this guy down pushing that guy down and I get very upset this is all this has taken half an hour already he hasn't said anything yet he's just so I go I go out get the mime I was learning this that I had learned that morning. I read the mimemer. I This is what it says here in the mime. This is the say. Yes. Yes. The mimemer knows. But tell me, can you answer the questions I asked you in the first place? No. So, if you can't answer them, then you haven't understood. Yes, you repeated the mimemer, but you didn't understand what it said. As I say in Hebrew, the coin fell. You you knew exactly what Oh, thatus isn't just saying those words over again, repeating the sto this the truths which the which Rebi says. It's assimilating them to your own understanding, putting them in your own words, able to to explain it to another person who doesn't necessarily know. And have you all thought that? And you know, how should you put it? That's what I try to do personally. And I thank God because you know, you was a gift. >> So for you that was like a new experience that you haven't that you haven't you hadn't yet experienced earlier inad or whatever that was. Everyone, yo was a new experience for every person who unders who ever took him seriously. There's a very big difference between Dra and Dri. When the Reb speaks to Siddus, it's a little what can I tell you? No matter how much speaks about taking the ore of the and putting it into concept into a conceptual framework that everyone can understand it's to make it real for them. It has to be taken a little bit further. taken from there's a beautiful um article written was among among the other things he was also the editor now wrote a translation of is written in Yiddish, a very grunt yedish, a very street Yiddish, the kind of too a Yiddish which b many people who know Yiddish don't understand it because it's too street Yiddish for them to understand. So translated it into Russian kurdes when wanted to publish he had a big problem because is a reb's domain to say not and he bring he writes a very clear clear exposition he says when the reb is elus of elus when when the reb says says it's not human intellect looking at an intimate god it's an infinite god coming into human intellect so the problem is though when you have human god coming into into infinite into mortal intellect. It's not it's not quite mortal intellect yet. A human being has to break that down into his own words into his own musim his own conceptual framework so that he can understand. Y did that. I mean obviously [clears throat] the Reb gave him the tools. Let's you know like people people don't realize how much of quote yo's explanations are found in a there and a mimer there etc. That said, the way he formulated it was something very unique. There aren't again he had a tradition. He he had heard from his teachers from scholar from many people who had studied the masculine from from the previous generations. But he was unique. And so people who not many people really a lot of people he he didn't speak it wasn't easy to to listen to him. Not every not everybody could grasp him but push intellectually was he was a little bit abstract and speaking his speaking tone was not the easiest to grasp. So they didn't always clap what what he was say saying and you know I mean I was amazed in the in the last 20 years years of his life he would say a shir in shabas morning in 77 in upstairs in 7 last uh place was upstairs in 788 maybe 25 people came to it think about that for a second yidus he's explaining see it beautifully as only he can and 25 people were able to get out of their bed chabas to morning willing to come and only and only 25 I was just amazed I mean I used to come in especially just to hear him you know just hear that cheer I wasn't living in fan he hats at that at that time >> the Friday his Friday night sh had a bigger attendance though Yeah, but first of all the finite because it was semi it had to be attended you know was like but was sim and what else were you going to do >> right >> but also it wasn't it was packed but it wasn't super packed I mean let's be honest and and and probably maybe 60 70 brim of the 200 brim 200 plus bim in in yeshiva again couldn't here all that well easily also but you know it it had a better attendance than the shabas morning shabas morning was basically for balabakim but not everybody tuned into yo but if you did you got something from it you learn to think throughidus and and that made a very difference >> difference between that. It's cute because there was nobody who who spoke Kabalas more than Y. Nobody spoke of more than Yol. But he did it in a way where this wasn't just rallying around the flag. Oh, this guy. No, it wasn't just it was a message that came from the inside to the outside, not oh, we've got to do this. We've got to do this. >> Right. Okay. It's very fascinating. Um, so I want to hear also a little bit. You talk about let's talk a little bit about theav. So you arrive Purim or after Purd what was that experience seeing the rabbi for the first time and subsequent fabans what was what was that like for you >> look I had to learn this what I tell you know wasn't brought up in I heard a lot about about how to learn what it means to be what what it means first of all hear the idea to to listen to for Brangan for two, three, four hours. Americans don't do that. I mean, you know, if American hears a speech that's an hour long, he's tired. He wants he doesn't want to listen anymore. That's you know, the best be you know, no speaker is supposed to speak for more than 45 minutes. Okay. So the re there that was punctuated by nunium etc. But the ability to halt cuff for through a hole for brain that required training and you know that took that took time and you wanted to do it something like oh this is where this is where you are you want you want to be able to but it was it was it was very hard it was a hard skill to pick up. What was this still like a was there still like a language barrier for you at that point or it wasn't the language it was the it was the >> a little bit of a language a little bit of a language barrier but I but not so much language barrier I picked up more or less um early but just hey how many people can can how many people can sit sit you know watching is definitely different from from being there. But show show me people who who sit through through a video for pregnant today. I mean without fidgeting wrapped attention focused you know. Sure it's not it is not an easy skill and you wanted to know what the Reb said and of course you know Khazor was a very big thing. You want it to be like if this is you know like I always had an achievement uh orient orientation. So oh if it's you know so if is important so I I I want to be able to do that also and it was it was very cute like I was never very good at at following mamish word for word but I was ve but I was very good at ideas. I could I could get a the minion of a so quite often by it was a you know like other guy you know my job my job in Khazar was often what's the flow what's the next stage in in in the fbrangan >> you think so not so much the memory of of the wording that used but like what's the ham basically the ham >> yeah the ideas >> I've actually heard your name when people describe those years I've heard your they mentioned as a contributor. >> Yeah, like I said, I was not a I was not like there were people who who were very good at following the words. My my emphasis in in wasim and you know found the flow of and the and the way the ideas one led to the other. >> So you were able to do that within a short time of you coming to Sanzi? Yeah, once once I picked up the Reb's Yiddish the Reb is Yiddish I still can't speak a good very a good balati Yiddish like the >> So how do you communicate with and all these people like >> first of all I used to communicate a lot with in Hebrew he loved speaking Hebrew that's his natur that was his natural language as a kid I mean he he was born in Russia Russia's his parents probably spoke Russian at home for a while he he also spoke Russian But you know um he he he he liked speaking Hebrew. He was cute. So I was speak I was speaking in Hebrew. But I also learned I learned Yiddish. But the Yiddish of the Yiddish I'm saying a balabat street Yiddish like >> how to get >> Yeah. You know to serve supper in Yiddish. It's very hard for me me to um when my when I was teaching you when I had was raising my kids we taught we we spoke to them in Yiddish they were age six at that point they said wait a second I want a bit of a communicate with my kids >> important >> so when they got to when they got to see this I but you know but just everyday stuff you know we switch from So back to the Reb. So you're saying the Reb's Yiddesh is what? Oh, it's it's half gamorra half kabola half kabola. It's it's not it's not about >> I remember as a kid I would listen to I knew yish as a kid and then listening I listen to I didn't understand three three >> exactly so so the I was the opposite because I was able to understand the Aramaic theor I was therefore able to get get the idea of >> right so so it's very fascinating I mean uh it's very fascinating that you were able to to picked that up within a short time. By the I was listening recently to a few there's a few that have that are recorded in the Reb does speak a little more of that uh you know the conversational Yiddish like it's a and it's much harder it's much it's it's a lot more you know the vocabulary not even the vocabulary the the expressions that use us is is very different than the so you so you so you come to 770 and you're you're totally in you're the listening to your your uh yourans. So what was the when you heard the rebba speak what was the the the new I mean you said that when you everything wasb but you know they don't know what what what it's all what it's all about when you come to 770 and you're hearing from the directly what is it >> it's real one of the classic things is that he means what he says you can hear a person speaking And honestly, he's not just talking about a dream, a goal. What I you know, the Reb whatever he said was very real for him and therefore it was very real for you. And like that was what as Brim Mitso meant something to us. Why? Because when the said that he is so villain, that every Jew should put on Spillin. Oh yeah. So that's part of our job to go out and go on the street and make sure that every Jew puts on Spillin. When the Reb said every Jewish Jewish children child should go to a camp, a Jewish camp and that's actually like the first thing I did I did in in um in S This was gimmu spoke about us. It's right before the half year before the war. He started speaking to us. It's a classic, you know, it's it's now in the annals of art history, quote unquote, that I was quote knew this be knew the war before half a year before was happened and gave the the and gave the inner message message message to defeat the enemy beforehand. We didn't quite understand what was happening in the rrooknis and what was happening in the future developments. We just know that said something, we took it seriously. And I remember going up to David asking afterwards Dev and I have become friends over over the over the because again David took there was no you when they titled the book Abdavid and that's really what it was okay there was no person who wasn't like David Rascin I you When when the devil said something that was real, David took that, you know. So So I remember go remember. So oh, we have to get every every kid in we have to go out and try to get to do something. He says, "What do we do?" I says, "Look, let's develop a program every we're we can get kids into camp. will go around to every Jewish school, Hebrew, you know, educational day school, put up flyers in the streets and every every Jewish kid in New York will get the Reb's message. That was a little bit of an overstatement. We didn't actually do that, but but we hit every official place in every official school. Got the got the Reb's message. We rented seven step seven cars going all over all over New York City to this. I remember being signed. Seven cars doing the doing the de seven chariots for the Rev's word. It was a spyus at that time because nobody had ever done that before. But yeah, what made it happen? Who took the Rebba seriously and the same thing that that year spoke about Khan that every Jew should have have a manora. Oh, every Jew should have a monora. So we we went out, we bought up we went all through every Jewish Jew Judeaic store. So bought up all Monoas, gave out monoas on the street. Then we we ran out after a couple of days. There was no more manas to buy. Beloved knew somebody who had a metal factory. We made our own. He made special monoras for us. >> Those are the famous that's when they were created. >> Thousands of Yeah. Where did this come from? because Brim heard the Reb and they said, "Oh, he means what he says. Let's make it happen." That was that was what you know that was the spirit of the Bahamas that started that at that time. Other words, it was you unique energy which you know beforehand there wasn't that same degree of manpower and I would say I don't whatever the flexibility wasn't there. We got it done and that's what's you know that's what started tanks was was not the Reb's initiative tanks was the Bakram's initiative everything all the these things yeah the pushed it but the Reb said something Bakram thought how to apply it and we got it done and that changed into like oh when Reb says something he means it and we mean it. We're going to try to get try to make it happen. >> That was a spirit of go, you know, like it and it was it was semi- new at that time. I mean like no people have been talking like this but they never did it. Now we did it >> right. I mean, Mipulin had been there before, but it wasn't quite with the same energy as as this as this, you know. So, you went out for Friday, Friday morning, Friday afternoon, you went out, told him you're out. But there wasn't it didn't it was a personal thing. It wasn't it wasn't have the the new the the energy that that these later did, >> right? And those were happening all your years. May I ask you another question about the the besides those speak and all those things. But my my other question is about what about the like that makes? What was that to you that was different from what you heard from from other people? Look, you look at you see this what the Reb explains there with Modani that like that's a classic and he does it in in all four in the four parties of Torah. But really every rashi and every ramam when it's magnified by by pimia satura it's a different rashi and a different ram. And so that's that's why so many people have tr you know great Torah scholars look at the look at the Reb's Rambams and oh some of them pick it up and say wow and some of them pick it up and they put it down because they this is a whole new way of of thinking of Rambam say Rashi when the reb you know an article put out as I said Rashi and they didn't put it in anything from the Rebba part of that was political but part of it was quite honestly they're just the Reb's way of thinking the Reb's way of reading Arashi is so radically different from the way they do it was hard for them to stand and therefore it didn't go in. In other words, it was a whole new approach. That's one of the things, you know, I actually want to go into what we what we've done in translating Lucas is that we've shaped it. On one hand, we're very true to the original. we keep and we have a very clear know it's facetoface translation there's no deviation from the source on the other hand there's plenty of explanation so that a person who's not familiar with that style could understand what the le is doing and that's very important because as I said before the the transition from elus to how a normal person understands. It's a transition and was taking the way the Reba understands something and putting into an American conceptual framework requires a certain shaping and uh yeah you learn you know you learn to do it yourself but um if that text could be if that can be made available that's what we try to do in our in our translations it's very valuable. Okay. So may maybe this is a springboard that you can talk to me a little bit about in English a little bit like a little bit how you got involved in it and what was the seder of doing it and and what it's all about what it takes etc. Okay. Started that's 1978. I actually wasn't in in New York at that time in Cleveland in Cleveland. Um papian actually couple at that point it was the first time there were time there was a real large amount of balachu throughout throughout the America and throughout the world for that matter people who didn't understand Yiddish wanted to hear it in English that was first sign was simultaneous for Brangens you the science translations at Fbrangan and people wanted, oh, can we get copies of what the Reb said? and a couple of at that time Bim Lady Weinberg. There was a bunch of people who they could do this. They wanted to do it and they started it. Quite honestly, it was a little bit erratic. Now, these so I came back from from from cle I was in Cleveland zer just gotten engaged shortly after pumm it's interesting a poem kind of figures as features as as a uh transition point but shortly after pumm pum I came I came back to the crown heights right before before my wedding and they said oh you're Sure, great. Take it over. You need somebody who's who can do this on a regular basis. Do it. So, we start I started shortly afterwards. Ya Abson came in. Ya, you know did the organizational work. I did the translation. Ya did the organizational work. I have to, you know, like Yona knew how to Yona gave himself over 365 days a year to making this the project happen. I mean like you know guy didn't sleep you know he literally had had had his bed in the office for many years really he know his bed was in the English office that's that's where he was 247 he was a bucker >> making sure the most yeah making sure the most had happened was this was just like That's the way it happened. So, um, you know, I I I would say say that I had that my my bed wasn't in 77. I was just getting married that time. But uh you know no we we started putting out the there's still the first thing from the second half of lit we got most of the and um from litan it came on a on a regular basis. So I have a question. How what's the process of translating the in English? You're doing it from your own or you're copying the are coming out and translating the how does it work? Definitely definitely definitely copying the but we were doing something like what lak does does I mean actually David Feldman used [laughter] to used to say Elliot I wish I could do what you did because we would synopsize the you know it's like on one hand this wasn't a full translation because hey the reikus the the Yiddish were 40 50 pages. The Hebrew was was is already cut down to 20 30 pages. We wanted to get 10 pages 15 pages in English. That's you know most people can can read 10 15 pages in about half you know seriously studying in about 20 minutes. That's about that's what we wanted to get to. We didn't, you know, like when you produce a 60-page document, it's self-defeating. Nobody's going to read it, >> right? It's actually very um I mean, I I I use that myself if I'm watching a and I want basically a good synopsis of the basically you have the whole of the without every detail just to get understand the the in English is great for that. >> Yeah. again again like I said what I did in what I did in I I I did the same thing get a a flowchart of the Rev's ideas and give it give it over then you know later we we changed a little bit because the rev was but even even in the even in the later years is from you know from when we would When I started I I took a I did the from to me then I started again in the in meas but you know even later when we were more attentive to people at that point really want we want to hear exactly what the Reb said. So we were more thorough in in getting it word for in getting you know like I said not word for word but uh more more true to the loyal to the sec to the text but uh yeah you can't be totally you can't be totally stuck on the text on the on the text you have in an English audience you have to craft it and synopsize it to a certain extent now we don't do that we give expand what the Reb writes not not synapsized because it's a different process is a direct translation of what the Reb said expanded in other words when we do look when we do a we want to we want want a framework in a manner which any person can more or less understand what the Reb says that anybody who who who opens will take a look and hey I can read what it says it makes a log it's a logical sense to me you've the terminology it's a little bit foreign but it's explained there and I can follow it and go go through it step by step >> do are you aware of what the rebba's um reaction or to this whole idea of having the in English was >> look the cla's reaction this This is this is tough lit. We were in diap. We were mostly in diapers and at that point Khan and director had Emanuel Shet produce a translation of oftus 1 to5 which is al in English it's 1 to5 in Hebrew in the original English it's alphan base now Emanuel is a manual he's like you know there's very few people like him but so I don't know the full process of how and what but before he published it he he put it into the and and he asked the permission to publish and the reb says in We got nothing better than that. In other words, that that was our direct >> mandate >> stamp. Yeah. No. And later we put out a series timeless patterns in time. that gave us his his shar the first this was is adapted you know not at all a direct a direct translation and that said we could we could use his shar that you know what that meant in other words saw this is [laughter] I wouldn't We were perfect that time. Far from it. We were very, you know, we needed a lot of improvement, but the Reb trusted us that we were going in the right direction. We we wanted the community's Torah and he felt that oh these guys know Yona myself other people working with us were committed to the goal and as we get better at it as we we work at it we'll get better at it instead of you know like one of the biggest problems you know the people say that the enemy of good is is not bad it's excellence >> perfection right >> people Yeah, if you're not perfect, we can't troubleshoot. No, was very much get it out. Get the message over. The message will be effective. You'll do something and if and we'll go from there, right? Um I'm saying and the the the idea of making this the accessible to the English speaking crowd I mean this is a a major step in I mean it's look how many did speak about and somebody finally did that >> and uh and and and in recent years you've in the set of that you're working on now which is a total new project a new access that gives that it gives to people to to the right that's that's the most current and recent endeavor that you've been uh involved in yeah it's an it's an amazing thing and um you know we did six volumes where we showcase first on on every par and then every selection that's a blue set that people getting to know now and the last two years we've working on Alphan B hopefully by Alfan B will come out we're now in the final process >> is that the plan to to go al to translate to look at the >> let's put it this way we did bay now we're on gim I've got questions afterwards. It's exactly what whether we should continue or don't continue. Quite honed editing those which became hatess and and those are totally different with a different goal. Alan base. So again, I don't know if we're going to go what's the next stage after is after Dala that's already a inner um >> I mean eventually everything is going to be translated at some point. >> Well yes. Yes, but because look this is one of my points in translation. If you have a physics trans textbook in Yiddish, can you and I understand it? Mostly not. In other words, you have to know the jargon of the of the subject before you understand it. So when you're doing a Rambam or or even an intricate rashi is that sh to everybody or is it sh to somebody who was a student of that? Now on one hand obviously said the edited the sh to everybody. On the other hand to everybody that's that's our our intern that's our internal debate. the debate. >> But you What's that? >> And I >> One second. You just touched on something. The Rambam you actually did translate in its entirety. What was that about? >> Yeah. Look, the Rama translated entirety a because wanted people to learn it. And again, this is something where I took the seriously. Nobody else did except >> he's >> beautiful. >> He's the one that published it. Yeah, I remember his words. Will this make the deb? I said the devil will be overjoyed. See if I get my gate on them when we're going on this, you know. But the the ramen was a specific thing. You're learning Rambam now. Not now, Lubiches learn Rambam. Nobody else in the world learns Rambam. Rosh and this is this is the unique thing of the rebba and shifting subjects a little bit but a roshiva learns when he has when his kasha he wants to make a pilpam either to make a either because he wants to understand how haram looks in the gammor or mostly because he wants to make his pillp and put the raam in in his pill [clears throat] one or two or the other but it's not learning raam raam He wrote his book to be learned al to know 613 mitzvah that you should go from total and this is so every kid from from 10 to 15 should learn my safer. That's what he writes. Nobody ever did that that had that sense of learning Rambam. Well, they do actually do that in in in Yemen in Tamman. They did in Tamman for many years. But definitely outside of that of that small community tint who really they actually follow the ram as ha but everybody else in the yeshiva community never learned ra that's a new revolutionary concept of raam that oh learn just learn it so you want to understand the 613 mitzvah This is this is the board. This is the Reb had three teachers. If you hear what are three people that I would always mention byan Rashi Rambam how there's um a Torah was divided to Mikra redacted Rambam Gomorrah. Not the book of Gomorrah but the thought process of the Gomorrah who was the convinces that the rabb and these are and the reb was that's the the in all those things yes would have mentioned everybody but rashi rama because in in these three disciplines he was dedicated to teach the king of each three. >> Yeah. And so go ahead >> taking so again taking when the re speaks of Rambam it's a totally different Rambam the actual let's put this way it's put on the other hand and it's taking the raom in a very in a much deeper way than you would get it just from the text is just to teach how to do the mitzvah Reb is deeper than the most than or anything else in the sense he's he's taking it much deeper but yeah he's focusing ultimately on what on what the ra wants but yes so so going into when is really you have to get into the reb's motives you know way of thought so is that shak for everybody I don't know on a constant basis we we have you know we do s samples of how the reb so you can see how how the reb attacks we just we have samples of rashi but most of ours are focused on the hashem because quite honestly that's what people are looking for want to see see how the taught you how to face life's questions answer your answer the personal issues which you come up in relationship So you're assuming that someone that wants to learn or probably is able to look at the original. Is that that assumption >> to do it? Well, yeah, you have to I mean just said like like I said to learn a psychology text textbook or learn a textbook in physics, you've got to you you got to be somewhat of a of an expert in that. So yeah, if if we give you a if we'll spell out a specific sika we we do that we have it but to do every rashi sika you really got to be be into rashi to do that. So that's that's my my own personal question whether we actually will do that or not. >> Right. So my question is do you think it's beneficial for someone that learning in yeshiva is a lab and and grew up in in that system and he knows well he could read the original is there is there is there a benefit for him to utilizing things from in English for his own understanding or it's not necessary >> look let let's step back I got grandkids go to love high schools My grandkids unfortunately don't know Yiddish perfectly. Some of them yes, some of them no. Even those who do this up here are not perfect in it. Most a lot of them are not. They're very and they're all fluent in in English. Their English is better. Even those who know Yiddish, their English is better than Yiddish. So initro the people the people who are learning who they speak Hebrew they're learning the cus in in translations intelle kesh people think oh it's in English [laughter] the holiness is gone on the contrary I I look at that as a miler you're right it's the holiness is not is gone you start to understand, you know, it's very easy when something when it's a holy text in text you're saying I'm learning the but I don't but I'm sing song and it'll go along and I don't understand the single word that I'm saying if you read it in English you're forced to look at the words and understand what they Okay. And that's what the Reb wanted us to do I think to understand what he meant. So yeah now so I think at a at a beginning stage it is definitely very valuable to again we have facing translations so you're not you know we're not telling you not to learn the Yiddish that it's on it's it's two columns on the same page not even you know it's it's not even one page on the other page two columns on the same age. Yeah. So that you know that that it's the same. >> By the way, that's I think that was an amazing I don't know whoever's decision that was that was an amazing of this latest volume. Is that >> spotlight spotlight design that they're you know like I have to you know like I remember we some of some of them because it's easier to read English as a separate page >> and their vote and they were right about it is that no we want people to go back and forth >> but it also makes it like you don't have to be oh it's English forget about it or it's Hebrew like anyone can open the safe and utilize it you know. Yeah. And you see immediately that he that the Hebrew and and the Yiddish or the and the English are connected one to the other. So that's you know that's that that's the the ultimate goal there. But so again I'm not saying that that you should the person we should read only the English forget about the original and definitely [clears throat] excuse me as as you go all go go go go go go go go deeper into the text there definitely is an advantage in seeing lav seeing the nuances of the original that you that you can't um really get in in English >> 100%. >> Right. >> Having said that, I I have friends who read my translations and they know Yiddish. Hey, what you did here is amazing. I understand the Sikha much better than I did in the original because we taught it. I mean, we've got an amazing staff and if this isn't all my own sham Weinberg ads, Shalom Zurkin is in adds a his brother his brother's Z mayor and we've got a bunch of people working on this, you know, solid minds who put in each one puts in their their own effort to make this this work accessible and understand and that there's, you know, the full depth of what I've been saying is there I can't be perfect but like I said I have friends who understand what they're understand the very well you look at what we do this is saying you know this is a was amazing yeah okay definitely uh a major major I mean the the vast the the the volume of what you've done is uh is pretty remarkable and should continue being Mayits may and I really appreciate this conversation. It's very uh very intriguing. Good talking to you.