Ep. 49: What The Rebbe’s Childhood Was Like with Nuchie Schapiro

The Arab Emil stands up and greets his Mhammed Zman would not and nor would any sit during it's not appropriate to sit in front of the Reba. The Rebba would not sit in front of his Mhammed. So they both stood. The went on for somewhere about 45 minutes and they were standing the entire time. The name of this podcast is among if you know anything about the way of life you know that one of our greatest pillars and the best way that we can give the is how we show up for one another. We celebrate each other and just as importantly we stand shouldertosh shoulder in times of need. Right now there's a mishb a beautiful family of that needs our immediate support and during a time of unimaginable pain and sorrow dedicated devoted mother just passed away at the young age of 47. For years she battled the terrible Maha heroically full of unwavering amuna. friends and the family have come together to launch a very critical campaign. It's important to support them financially during this devastating transition. But perhaps even more importantly, it is to let the writer family know that they are not alone. We want them to feel that all over the world are standing right beside them, wrapping them in love and support. Please open up your hearts and be as generous as you can. Let's show them that we are tak and that we take care of our own in their deepest moments of grief. Please right now log on to charity.comriterfamilyf fun. That's charity.com family fund. Let's be there for the writer family with bra of Nafar and Mashiach. Now I'm Yasi Cayman. Welcome to among an ongoing faban about life as our vibrant connection with the Reb and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. Shalomi. How are you? How are you? It's great to be here. >> Thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited to talk and the uh topic that I want to discuss with you is you have published a new book and I'll allow you to tell us the title of the book and in it you discuss the entire history of your name is Nuki Shapiro. of the Shapiro family dynasty, whatever you want to call it, but it really has a lot more than just their story. It's a story of Labavich. It's a Labavich and Mishbaka going way back. And there's a lot of rich history that's regarding that your family, but regarding Labavich in general. And I'm very excited to hear about it. And my first question is, what was the inspiration for this? How did it begin? What was the process to get it done before we get into the content of the book itself? Oh, it's a great question. Um, when somebody doesn't know something, you get highly motivated to figure it out. So, actually, my lack of knowledge is what really propelled me to go seek it out, learn it, and ultimately publish it. So, just to take you back a tiny bit, bal this is a little bit of a separate component, but blal I've always had an incredibly deep appreciation for Jewish history, labavich history. Um, I remember when I was really young, when Schmolkunda put out when Zadei was young, it was it was wonderful. It was actually the first time that there was a relatable piece of history because it wasn't something from thousands or hundreds of years ago and Amamish felt relatable and I remember really really enjoying that because I felt it was the first time that it was tangible. Um, I'm sure all of your uh viewers and listeners know that we've heard hundreds of stories about the Katchma and the Pits and the Balagola and uh there's always a bandit and a dungeon. And it just it was a combination of of you know lack of relatability but also frightfulness like oh my god somebody again is about to get murdered. Someone's about to become homeless. I always had a lot of almost like stress because you don't really know what's going on. we're in this horrible, horrible prison, you know, Eastern European world, which ironically is 100% true and it we go into it in the book that none of that was imagination. The point is that when I finally remember, we're talking years ago, we're talking about uh I don't know the early '9s. So when came out when you imamish felt and and I remember that being the first like, okay, what did what did this do for me? It enabled me to have a sense of where we're from. Now, obviously that was at a very young age. Fast forward uh you know years later I uh I think it was my first or second day in base magic in Morristown and you learned some Morristown as well right? >> Yes. >> So perhaps things have changed because at the time when you walk up to the third floor where the zal is right next to the zal there is a library but right between there's a tiny closet. I remember passing by wondering a minute the to the right the library is to the left what's this mystery door? and I knock at the door and it's it's probably once upon a time a janitor's closet. It's the tape library which I can't imagine exists anymore. Anyway, in the tape library, I get the catalog and I start perusing and I see there's a rabbi Rabbi Barl Wine who has Mamish, a thorough a toz on Jewish history, which I've never seen anything of that nature whatsoever. And I thoroughly enjoyed that. I was in Marstown uh for two years. So I slowly slowly went through hundreds of of Rabbi Wines's tapes. And then uh fortunately when I went to Miami the next year, they also had it in their tape library. So again, a bit of a a bit of an intro that I've always had a deep appreciation because essentially it shapes where we are today. There is no consideration that what happened yesterday is is not is of no concern to me and obviously not just me as a person with appreciation for the past and how it shapes the how it shapes where we are today. That's blal you know our people and the way we and the way obviously terror is not a history book of course that's obvious. I'm not saying that but the way the past shapes us who we are today is obviously a big foundational part of of Yiddish. So I just wanted to give you that sort of like independent piece that I always had a deep appreciation um for Jewish history bal and lavage history. Fine. So fast forward and the the fact that I didn't know anything about my family history is uh is a little bit unique because it's very common you as a father and the listeners out there you know parents tell their children. It's that positive. you tell your children the stories of your parents and grandparents and that's uh that's common place in in in the world. In my case, it was a tad different because unfortunately my father was nifter when I was extremely young. Uh and uh and we'll get into him a little bit later, but my father >> There's a whole chapter in the book about your father, right? Or multiple chapters. >> Yeah, there's a whole uh section >> section. A section. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, my father uh I guess I'll jump to the end, but we'll get more detailed later. But my father passed away when he was 41 years old and I was >> Your father is Shapiro who was the was known to many as the principal of Alra, right? That that's uh what he's famous for in Crown Heights. >> That that's right. He was he was the assistant principal in Alterra. Well, he originally started out first as as a Malamid as a Rebi and then uh he then became the assistant principal. So by the time he passed away in Tav Shannon um he was the assistant principal and I was 6 years old. So you could imagine being 6 years old um what that's like. But as it pertains to uh this part of the discussion, there were there were no stories. It was a drastic void. I knew my Za Riba Shapiro um was a very holy and special person. So I knew, you know, he just knows certain things and pick up on certain things. I knew that my Altaza, my namesake, Noam Shapiro was incredible and uh my other Elaza of Lincoln Reb is childhood Muhammad. And so some of these things were extremely vague and uh quite simply cuz the void was there. Independently independently I always appreciated and love bumping into people who would say something like, "Oh, I remember your father. He was my Mhammed in Alter. He was my principal." in terror or maybe a community member because he was extremely active in the crowns community um doing amazing amazing things for people you know steel or hate um making sure to retain their dignity. So it would be these bumpins every once in a while where I would get these 30 second golden nuggets and quite frankly um those 30-cond nuggets honestly brought him back to life. it's uh brought him back to life for 30 seconds. So over the years between these two needs that I had I decided okay I'm going to write a book on my father and but my father's story is my story but the story is bigger it's his parents his great his grandparents etc. So my father's story, hence my family story is really one one large unit. So between wanting to write a book about my father and wanting to know more about my family history and my extreme appreciation and love for Jewish history and history baklal that definitely uh that was sort of the that was what propelled me. So the actual first action taken was in uh 2010. Um we were sitting in Crown Heights for my one of for my father's yard site. I think it was a 19th or 19th or 20th yard site and my uncles and aunts were there and it's a yard site for bringing in which anyone who's been to a yard site for bring in I'm sure many people have it's not the easiest for bring in so I basically took out my uh at the time iPhone 3 and um I said I know I know very little about the family history please share with me so I put the phone down hit record and it was just phenomenal so all my uncles and aunts you chiming in uh throwing in stories, episodes, events and this is going back to 2010. That was the first let's call it interview that I conducted. I wouldn't say in that exact moment I told myself oh I'm I'm going to write a book but I definitely um started the journey and that was the first piece and I slowly started collecting stories and documents and photos and and uh yeah so slowly slowly over the years um as it built you know it's it's obviously many many years and um I hope I answered your question >> you did a very good job um so the final product you want to tell The title of the book. >> Sure. The title of the book is the entire book meaning uh the title of the book is is mom is the summary of what everything is inside. It's called legacy of resilience the remarkable journey of the Shapiro family. And uh if you read the book for five minutes you'll hop why it's called legacy of resilience because that is exactly what it is. the unbelievable capacity to maintain their yiddish and their kite and even staying alive is really what it is and the cover itself um exemplifies that as well. Well, I have a copy right here, so I know most people are listening. But basically, as you can see, it's a dark dark foggy uh forest, but the brightness and the light of the terra um on the horizon is what was their their guiding their guiding their guarding life, their guiding principle. >> Okay. So I want to get to the content of the book and uh but before that from my uh perusing through the book and from our conversations you really uh come out with that it's not only the the legacy and the story of the Shapiro family but what you have here is the story of and the story of the Jews in Eastern Europe and and the way behaves and the way lives the dayto-day. So there's a tremendous benefit uh for the broader community. In general, I find I think it's a benefit to know about people in general. There's a lot of books now being published. The stories of encourage very much to write down their and their memories and memoirs etc. But beyond that, I mean there's a the reason for that is because it's not just about an individual. It's about what that what those individuals represented and the background of of you know their lives that they were living. Right? Does that does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah. just to just to uh clum add to that point in my in my preface uh where I talk about you know why I wrote the book but I I also bring a phenomenal letter from the freeda while the freeda was invit uh I believe it was 34 specifically this is already back then back still in when the freed was still in Poland um specifying and I have excerpts of that letter how imperative it is to retell the stories of great let alone we're not talking about oh years later in the safety of America we're still talking out in the 1930s as you could imagine, >> right? >> Um, and yeah, absolutely. The the book the protagonist may be the Shapiro family. So, it it's it's about these individuals, but it's it's absolutely not solely about them. Um, it is the story of Labavage of the last hundred years. It's basically the story of Labavage going from the mid 1800s pretty much to the present or roughly to the year 2000. And while uh there are se while there are many let's call a major characters like I said uh there's zman rabbis Mhammed Ripa Shapiro and my father and many many many many other because and I'm kind of only like I guess materializing this later because I have an incredible appreciation for Jewish history. It was imperative that the reader see the broader picture every step along the way. So if I'm going to talk about a town, a city, an event, a place, it's not just about this person and this is the train he took, I mean it it's that too, but what is going on for Yidden in the country at that time. I'll give you a tiny example that really is imperative to see how much broader this is Lavage story than just the and I'm not minimizing. I'm very proud of it being a Shapiro family story, but it's not exclusively. Lamashel I I could imagine most of the viewers are familiar with the popular episode of the great escape where many many many had the miraculous escape from Russia right after the war. I mean I'll leave every detail you could check it out in the book but right after the war there was a miraculous escape and ultimately ended up in a displaced person's camp um overwhelmingly in a in a camp called uh Pucking which is in Germany right over the border um outside of Austria. Well, Pucking is the place. >> Pucking is the name of the city. Yeah, Pucking is the name of the city. It's about I think uh it's not terribly far from Munich. I mean, not walking distance, but that'd be the nearest major city would be Munich, but it's short, it's just over the Austrian border um into Germany. When I write about that chapter, obviously, you know, you So, the whole book is designed very um very comfortably. So, you read the chapter and then when the chapter is done, there's a tremendous amount of photos and documents that uh correspond to everything you just read. There's over 550 photos and documents of the book. I know I know a lot of people today they're more into audio book or like you know I went to LA I'm not a big reader. You know I've heard I've heard it all. I've heard it all. But uh this is extremely user friendly in that regard because my my main mission was that it should feel like an immersive experience. So LM Marshall that chapter on pucking you get an incredible feeling for everything what it was like to there's there's copies of like the cards you get like when you come in you have to you're a nobody. You don't even have documentation. You don't exist. So your registration card, what about your to shred youruba to hide your Russian identity? Someone finds out you're Russian, you are in severe trouble. So they quickly had to run to the RV. And you see the day of arrival is actually the next day because I guess maybe they came in at 4:00 in the morning. Then they run straight to the rub and get a kuba the kasa and which are a replacement. And then it goes on and on into the people that visited and and all the other events. you know the Rashag's visit the setup of Tim the used the setup of the infrastructure like a they were training people to be shakim the point is that it's way beyond way beyond just um um the family it is absolutely the the the history of Labavich and you see what went through in that time there's actually a fascinating letter from from the head of Vadah who sent it to the United States in this specific specifically talks about some of the ins and outs. I almost want to it's it's it's so juicy that I couldn't edit it down. Obviously, there's a lot of things I didn't make the book, but that letter is so gushmak that I ended up putting in the whole letter. It's actually a four and a half page letter. It's one of the biggest documents in the entire book, which my intuition is correct. A lot of people gave me feedback like wow. And it's a lot of the interactions between the people within the camp in real time because the motive at the time was that he send a letter to the rabbis of the United States explaining what's going on and we need your help. That was the the premise of the father letter. I think it was dear leaders of of of dear Jewish leaders of the United States of America episodes. Um so I only use that chapter as an example. And then of course you have visits from her labor laser silver and uh you see Rabbi Byaman Gardetski there as well and um and then there's a nearby visit from um Eisenhower. So the point is that you definitely get to see the bigger picture and that I just use that as a mushel because the chapter I'm talking is incredibly visually immersive. I was going to say that when I was looking at the book, I was really blown away specifically about that chapter with all the photographs and documents you had on pucking. I mean, for were any of them are they are they newly released? Because for me, I didn't I haven't seen I would say many of them. >> So, some I'll explain. So, think about think about this. Imagine you're operating God bashm or you're operating the the DC uh Washington the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC or the joint distribution committee or or Yeo any of these massive historical institutions and comes co because I started this well you know prior to co again this was a passion project chiseling away for many many years during co naturally massive segments of these organizations had to shut down so the museums weren't open vahulu they really took advantage of the time cuz they have everybody on payroll. They're like, "Okay, let's archive stuff." So, they definitely I I uh was there at a fortunate in time where they definitely started to archive a tremendous amount of things that were inaccessible um uh prior to that. Um, additionally, so that's that's definitely true why you'll see some stuff that and and it's credited. If you look in the back, I have 550 documents. Every single document is source. You you'll know exactly where I got every single one. Obviously I wanted to give uh Karasatif to the to the origin but also for yourself on a research perspective like where where did this come from and some of it were from those are some of the major institutions I mean there's more major institutions and they're all thanked in the acknowledgement section but some of them came from extremely obscure places I mean I even met third and fourth cousin Valenans from Yakatrinislav who still live there uh in with DEPA and they provided photos for me that uh were were unbelievable gold. So yeah, it's it's basically almost two books. There's the written component and then there's the visuals. >> Amazing. Okay. So I think we got through uh our conversation we got a little bit or of the background of what it takes the labor of love that went into it. So maybe you can uh start uh storytelling and tell us a little bit maybe we'll go chronologically you know how it all began and go through the generations. So, so the format because the central figures are my grandparents. My grandfather his name was Reba Shapiro and my Bubby her name was Kana Valenin obviously became Shapiro. So they are the central figures. So the way to simplify it was the first two chapters I went back into uh Lipa Shapiro's origin and then um like where he comes from his parents his grandparents Vulu and at the end of chapter 2 he's a bach starts chapter 3 it goes back to where the Ven family originates and then chapter 4 and then at the end of chapter 4 Kana as well is um of marriageable age. Chapter 5 is when they meet and that's when the story uh so to speak continues with them both as a as a unit. So the Shapiro family um interestingly does not come from some of the famous Shapiro. Uh I think I've re I got this my entire life. Not not in Labavage because in Labavage frankly there are not a lot there aren't there it's it's a very popular Jewish name but in Labavage there are very very few Shapiro. Um, we are, you know, we're not a I mean, we're a large family, but we're not the only ones, but almost the only ones, you know, if you must to do it by number. So, but in the Velt, I would I I remember over the years hearing, oh, Shapiro, are you a cayenne? I'm like, why would I? No, I don't know why that would be. Um, Galia and you have other, you know, uh, Rome Shapiro. So, we know that the >> Shapiro is a place, right? >> Correct. But that that is correct and I I note that in the book. So so we have no I could not find any evidence that we come from Spyus which is Yiddish wasp. So it was a city in Germany that Nebuch was uh uh mostly most of the people were killed and the few survivors took the name and a twist on it was like Shapiro like you are from the survivors of that city. Senzine I don't know. um in an interview. By the way, I have to pause for an incredible thank you to Mrs. Strauss. I don't know her first name. Some people call her Bubby Strauss, but I'm sure Bubby's not her real name. She is a bass Rifka teacher for many, many years, many years. And she um has a project for her students, a social studies project that they have to interview, they have to interview their grandparents. and um unbelievable foresight, phenomenal foresight. And that was incredible resource for me because think about it, you're trying to collect information on someone who's already passed. So, one of the best ways to do it is I went to all the anac uh specifically the girls cuz um I don't believe had this project, but if they did, I I missed it. >> Vera, >> right? >> Is that when they made the scrap everyone makes a scrapbook? Is that that project? >> Correct. And you're and and it's very flexible. You're correct. So many make scrapbooks with photos and documents. >> I think I I have a sister. It was in Pacifica. I think I remember this project. >> It's golden. And and and Mrs. Strauss is mom is a genius because when I was collecting information and I got a lot from many many sources that was golden. So and I thank all of my cousins who provided their their projects to me and um they're all in the acknowledgement section, but that was that was unbelievable. So there's several some people did it scrapbook style like my wife still has hers from basically from her family. Um later on the teachers did it in Q&A format because what happened was you have a big sister you reprint your big sister's project and so they wanted it to be novel so they switched it over the years from you know a written essay to uh to here's a you know you have to submit a bunch of questions. I think one of the funniest ones because I found one of my my Zeta's later interviews with a cousin. Uh it actually this part didn't make it into the book because I be honest I had nowhere to insert it because the interview I used the material. I I used the material and I just had nowhere to insert the following. So one of the questions were what was the cost of Coca-Cola when you were a child. So um I uh you know my ZA obviously had a field day with that one. Coca-Cola if we're lucky we had a potato. Um because they have to because I think cousin was just sharing and recycling and no one was whisper but this is the part I'm I'm clarifying why the so a massive accuracy to her so when one of those interviews one of the children said one of the anc where where's the Shapiro name how far does it go back and my zipa said it goes back as far as I know it goes back as far as I know so meaning to say we were always Shapiro it's very common that people change their names countries it's extremely normative extremely ignore them. Shortened names, different names. In our case, uh to our to our knowledge, it's always been Shapiro, but not related to some of the uh famous Shapiro. Um so, Dipa um was born in a town called Carvich. Kvich or Kovitz, but Kvich was like the Yiddish way to pronounce it, which is kind of fun, by the way, because going through all of Russia, it's very beautiful to see, and it's also very insightful how Yeden always had their own nicknames to their towns. So, I I laughed at this later to myself when people say Kron Heights and I thought, you know what, that's the way it was. >> It was always like that. Uh >> it's not only that Jews had their own geography in general, >> right? >> If you're from LA, what what's lit? You know, by the time that they were saying that it might have been Poland, it might have been this, might have been that, but Jews had their own geography also. >> Right. Right. We live we lived in our own universe safety wise, very Marshall Lmberg. It wasn't Lmberg anymore, but Lmberg because it's it was originally German sounding, which is obviously close to Yiddish. So the Yidden always called it Lmberg even after it switched to Lav which is the border city between um um Soviet the Soviet Union um and Poland which we'll uh we'll get to later. So um Made De Lip was born in in Carvich. His father Num who's my namesake as well was also born there. His father was Yehud came originally from Minsk. He was not a Labavager. Um his mutin heski brought him close to um Labavich. Now when I say Ha Davski I know the average listener thinks oh yeah the writer he was Nister maybe 1015 years ago not him his namesake so uh as you can imagine if you just follow the year line that the the Hisha Dra Hishka Davoski that you're thinking of we're not referring to him his namesake was a mutin to Yehud Shapiro and he is then they moved to Carvich and he I guess you could say sort of became close to to Labavich um his kids he had nine children one of them was which my namesake Nam Shapiro. Um it's a little bit unclear if the boys or five boys if they all went to tempim that part's a tad unclear but it is very clear that essentially all his nine kids were loavich one of which was my great-grandfather and then no and then no had >> your great grandfather went to >> it's it's a little bit unclear >> you don't know >> it's right it's a little bit unclear I mean it's extremely clear from I have a I have a pond let's put it this way so I'll tell you what I do have I have a pond that he sent to feed Karba in 1934 four. And it's in the book. It's beautifully translated perfectly into English. There's also a lot of a lot of footnotes because some of it had to be coded. You couldn't just freely write a letter. We It's I I'm not trying to sound like, oh, you have no idea what it was like, but it's true. >> The frab is out of Russia at that point. >> Correct. So, when you're writing your pond to Poland, it's still going through the postal service. So this pawn that went to the fidic it had to be coded. So I I have on this topic I have I have two I have some panim from the bishop hero who was in Lenningrad in the early 30s and his pondim were deeply coded and I and thanks to the help of my um my uncles um helped me decode you know little the little ones were easy Marshall they referred to the fida as their father they would never say because it's you know it's too dangerous so they would refer to him as father obviously you had a lot of yeden we sadly know the aexia I mean I mean that already was gone by about 1929 but nonetheless we knew that they had easy access to translate your letter no matter what if it was lash and kes or y there's no problem so anyway in that in that incredible pan which is a masterful window into what was going on you clearly see he's writing like aid so no uh the closest I could get was documentation coming from him so it appears that yhud's children were all labavich between how they uh lived their lives, who they married, all their grandkids. So, it's just a little bit hard to tell because because I wasn't there. So, I'm going to feed off the documentation. So, Nam's letter um included a lot of beautiful things. One thing was very notable. So, it almost may contradict everything that we think about the times, not all, but some. So one of the things he mentions he would love a braha for his son Lipa who's of marriageable age to find the shak there's just one little problem can't find a girl there's just no from people around where where did all the from people go very you know I I I'm no expert in the uh space I I don't know when people discuss if that's the number one hardship when trying to find the shik and obviously there's many many things to deal with but I don't think if you asked a from person today are there are there like like there's no more from people right there's a husk a massive wave and they gobbled up everybody and we're gone so um anyway that was a very very insightful piece it's a longer pun and it's very insightful so no and I I I I don't want the listeners to think for a second that I'm using this term lightly because I definitely know people you know people use terms lightly he mamish a baki bishas realistically he mamish sat and learned all day and uh and that was his life always learning um he had a he was a bookkeeper and uh when he wasn't working he was learning and he he he very strongly made sure that his kids adapted that same thing another major thing that I found is there's a men arv pes to read there's a letter um uh from Rabi Shim from Astropali to read his letter. There's a letter. It's sort of like uh he it's um how do I describe it? It's a lot about Mitsim. Um it's I guess you could say sort of like Cababalo. Anyways, it's called Eggeras um Shimshim Astropoli. So back then in Russia, it wasn't like today where you go on cahus.com, you order any safer you want. they didn't have any spar and he wanted to keep up this mig every single era of peso. So he handwrote it and he had a handwritten copy that he kept till his eventual passing in the United States. So I'm very fortunate to have a copy of that. It's in the book and um it's incredible to see a handwritten letter and it gives you just a little bit of a window into what life was like for Yidden in the old country. Um specifically somebody wanted to learn something, what that meant. Uh right now you go on safari. I mean, it's I I I I don't mean to sound dated every time, you know, oh, it's amazing what we have now, but it's true. And I think that you'll have a deep appreciation when reading the book, getting a historical glimpse into what life was truthfully like. So, Matsad No, just to give you a tiny glimpse. So, he he has this handwritten this handwritten um um >> pen. There's a handwritten pan and then there's also a handwritten letter uh um that he would learn erra of Pesak. So uh I don't know if he went to it's a little bit unclear. His younger brother absolutely did because I actually have a temp picture. I'm sure some some of your viewers have seen they used to take pictures of um >> you're talking about somewhere else. >> Um that's a good question. It could have been it could have been because his brother of Ramshaya let me think a second. Was it actually in lab? That's a good question. I I don't remember offh hand. Um, right. Opened in the late 1800s. Um, did he act? Yeah. No, it is. When did when did leave Labavich? >> I think it's I think. >> Yeah. Then then it's possible. Yeah. Then it's >> I forgot. >> Yeah. No, that it's possible then it was actually in Labavich. Yeah. Yeah. because he he eventually died in the siege of Leningrad in um in 41. But um so back to the family as a whole, I go through a lot about all the siblings. There were nine siblings. Nah was um uh one of them, my great-grandfather. And uh some survived, Nav, some did not survive. And then from there we go into uh his children. One of them is which my grandfather of Lipa. And he's one of five children. Um and some survived and some for unfortunately did not survive. And it goes from there of what it was like to learn in. Now at this point when Reb when my Zedu went this is after the Bolshevik revolution um things have drastically changed. I mean even by the time my went to Kreman shook Kremanuk had already moved. So if you want to get an incredible insight only in chapter two an incredible insight what you know is and maybe it should be like mandatory reading for bur before they go to yeshiva. Oh the food is no good. You just read this chapter >> the underground. >> Oh my goodness. It's it's what the the between the underground between your life being at risk between the lack of food the lack of uh of lodging. Um, in the meantime, Isaiah took it as the best experience of his life. Uh, in one of the he he bounced around to several yeshivas. Uh, not because he got kicked out, because because sadly they were always shut down. Uh, and they always did their best to >> the communist kicked them out. >> Correct. The communists would shut it down and then they would um move on to another location where it was, I guess you could say, ahead of the communist. So, he ended up going to four yeshivas over the course of roughly four and change years. And um there's a great comp piece and this I heard from an interview from him at this point I I want to definitely thank my cousin Mendy Shapiro who as a bach in MFA so imagine he's in shar MFA he's 14 years old he sat down with my zeda uh many many years ago and over the course of the era a year six hours of recording that was incredible which was one of the pieces of material that I used of the book um it was on a cassette uh poor quality um in Yiddish of And my was later on in life. Uh that so that was tough extrapolation, extremely tough. Probably one of the toughest parts of this entire project. And and in there he he he talks about a lot of the details of yeshiva. He talks a lot a lot of things but I'm just saying specifically yeshiva and de masmid and there's a whole section on that came to his yeshiva and I believe he spent the winter there and he became very close with him. everything from being me mesmerized by him and he highly influenced the person he became everything from the way he learned um he would be busy all day long you know in the yeshiva and everything like that and as soon as the evening came cuz they actually stayed in the same place like everyone had like a nook and a cranny to sort of sleep there was no fancy dormatory with a comfortable mattress so in this case there was a cook for the yeshiva and this and and um she had like almost like a little extra space in the kitchen so they put like two beds so he would be there and her would be And um comes you know 11:30 at night when one would think you're about to go to sleep cuz you have a big day of learning tomorrow. Riba put his feet in uh cold water and opened up a tour and started to learn and that and in his words he basically never saw him sleep the entire the entire duration of that winter when he came when he came to the yeshiva and and there's a lot more detail on um on Rabbita and his incredible him as an incredible individual of course but also his influence on my yeshiva as a whole. So there's a lot on the underground yeshiva which uh which I I I know it's not an easy fix to say Baham learned this prior to day one but I I think it's extremely insightful because a lot of the a lot of the stuff at least personally if I read something or read a story or something it's still vague you know pardon me for like drawing back to one of my original statements about the puttits and the catchment like it's just a little bit vague. I don't actually understand what's flying. You're telling me like a like a like a dot on a on a on a big screen. I don't actually know what's going on. So anyway, this chapter, chapter two, about what his yeshiva life was like running around will tell you the story of Labavage of what it meant to be in Russia at that time period in the 20s running around to yes and 20s and 30s. Um, and particularly in English, by the way, I just want to comment quickly. it there's not there's a lot of incredible English material but I have found in my research um that there's not a tremendous amount in English on these time periods. So stam just um noting that that if someone is interested in something English in that time period I think this would suit them. >> Okay. And your grandfather at this time he never did he see the fa at all or no >> at this point I I I don't get the imp I see this is uh this is one of the toughest parts is because I did it after he had passed the impression I got and I'm probably going to get a phone call afterwards how did you not know I did so much research over the course of all these many many years again I started this we're talking about you know 16 years ago I don't get the impression that he met the fa it's the I I I don't have anything to say that he did. He lived in Carvich. Then he left Carvage to go to the Yeshivas and uh then eventually he came back to Karvich and then he uh migrated to um Leningrad which a lot of went to Len. This is after the Fidikba had already left. He didn't come to Leningrad until um um um like the early 30s. So the fidic kerba he he came he came to lengard after the fried kerba was was was was no longer there and then uh from lengrad he was there for a while whatever he was he was there for several years ultimately got married so when he got married which I guess we'll get into in a second he got married spent some time in his wife's hometown and then came back to lengrad so the point is I have no documentation to state that he ever actually met the fida in person they were never in the same place at the same time I do have correspondence I upon him that he sent the Fidikba and of course later I have letters that he received from the Fidika but that's of course out when they finally got out of Russia. So no I I I don't believe they ever met in person >> ever. Okay. >> Yep. >> Um so I want to hear let's hear let's hear about their marriage and then let's hear about your grandmother and her father the Rabbis Mama. Let's go down that route. >> Sure. So now you have um this man Ribblip Shapiro who after going through Timm he came back to uh Kvich he had the incredible privilege of learning with his uncle whose nickname was Feterov this was Rabbi Mendel Drovski Mama Shagon and he's talked about in the book a lot uh the 10-second version is that he actually was the on for a period of time um anyway you could read about him there but the point is now you have Rippa who is well educated in and then had a kvera with uh with his uncle Rabbi Mendel Dravski and then moved on to Leningrad. In Lenningrad he started working and there was just before his arrival there was an establishment of let's call it a half day yeshiva. It was called Tfer Bakurim and the Fid was extremely proud about it and um there's a there's a lot of people involved and sadly a lot of tragedy involved because of the Russians but we'll get to that shortly but the the short version is that he was in very involved in excuse me in Ferris Baham and he was a majir there which was which was a massive ordeal it was all done in secret so now you have a single individual and he's there his cousin he has a cousin by the name of Mayor Davski right I mentioned a moment ago his uncle is Mandel Davski His son marries a girl by the name of Dina Valenin, the daughter of Rabman Valenin. So his cousin said made the he's like my my my wife is a sister and you're my cousin. I think that would be great. And sure enough, he was right. So Ripa Shapiro gets married in a backyard on a Friday afternoon in Yakatrinis to Hana Valenin the daughter of Ripnerro Zman Valenin who was their childhood of Muhammad. Now who is he? probably the most secret not secret I don't want it to sound suspicious secret I mean most unknown story because he is a fascinating beyond fascinating individual nothing's ever been published on him and I guess it's my duty as his great-grandson to do so right who who else is going to do it um there have been many articles don't get me wrong there have been articles there have been beautiful turists a tremendous amount of help came from my my cousin who's is his namesake um Salman Valen who for his wedding did an incredible chura in Lash Kradesh with a lot of interviews and thankfully to him this was in the late '9s so a lot of people are still alive um and he was an incredible help but the point is that uh there's never been written a thor any book on him he comes from a town Pad Brana so half the audience is oh Pad Brana of course I know Padbrank Padbranka is like a household name Pad Brana is a city in in Bellarus. Uh uh it it border did it border I mean it's in the book but can't I memorize every d it was right either it bordered Bellarus or it's it's in Belarus it was a very very holy town um actually de Marash said a mimer there because there was a kas um that he came for but the point is it was an extremely holy town and he was born in in um 189 187 1878 about a month after Reblavvic. After or before, pardon me, but within a month. They were both born within a month. They have his father. >> Correct. Oh, yes. Thank you. Rebe's father. Um, and they were born about a month apart from each other. And they were very privileged to learn together as children. They were childhood uh, I mean, obviously things were very different back then. Your was basically your your local schol and they would learn. Um they also were highly influenced by Zaman Khiken as well who taught them as well. So anyway this is the world where Zamalinkin was born to to my knowledge uh he was always Lavich. It appears it appears they go back as far as the as the as the alterba. It was a little bit hard to do like a Ben Araben. Um but it it appears that they go back to the alterab of the Valenans. Um in terms of being Labavich um his his his childhood was was very unique in that regard. The city of Pad Brana was also a stopover when going to see theirbah. So obviously it was extremely unusual. Uh it was a great privilege to see their but they had the the unique privilege that when the would would go on their way they would stop in forbidding in preparation and of course on their way home give khaz um and that was an incredible part of their life. So just being in route to the rebba changed your whole life drastically. It's a very interesting like perspective right like your entire childhood could be predicated on the geography of your city's location and that's going to shape your entire future. Who' think about that? >> Makes sense. >> Sure. But I guess today when you're thinking of what's a nice community to live, let's say someone uh whatever the anash communities, I don't know, there's 50 sprinkled an communities in the United States. Where am I going to live? So I'm sure people are thinking about the schools and the kkite of the neighborhoods and all these kinds of other things. It's just a very unique perspective. It's like, okay, I'm going to pick the one that's in route to Labavich, you know, because I'm going to get the passer buyers. I'm going to get the visitors. Anyway, um so his his father was ah and as we know um it was always like this in in the old country that the I mean the today obviously still yay but it was very normative that the was basically like the mashia of the town almost like the second to the um because you obviously have to have tremendous shamay to be ah so um his father um was ah and um he so he went to learned was very close with Victor Rabb's father and that was his upbringing. There's a a tremendous amount more detail in the book about his childhood and eventually his visit to the Reb getting out of getting drafted which was mamish a miracle. He was one of nine children. He was one of nine children and um obviously didn't really exist at the time. Um he's you know like I said he was born in 1878. Um eventually gets married turn of the century in 1900. his share is also ah so ultimately he moved to his wife's town which was very very nearby and his ultimately uh trained him um to be ah and that is how um in in in um and that is sort of how his marriage life began as we know um became the ro of yakinislav which is modernday dena >> denipro I think it's called >> oh because it was dena petrosk and then in I think it's called Dipro. Now >> Dipro, I changed it again. Okay, >> that's the famous joke that the Reb was born in a place called Yakatrin Slav, but it was very hard to pronounce, so they changed it to DPRK. >> Well, the Reb was born in Goliath. >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The Reb grew up. But but now I think it's called the Nipro. Okay. >> Okay. So, it's interesting because in the book I had to make that decision. I had an incredible editor. Um she wrote the book on Rabbi JJ Hack, just a phenomenal editor. That was one of the hardships I'm like okay so how do I consistently work with cities like do I continuously change so the kids are in the book I just call it yakatrinlav because we're reading about that time period and even when it changes a little later maybe I'll put a parenthesis or something so try to make it very use comfortable for the reader >> so dabb's father becomes derv in uh 1909 in yakatrinislav uh there's a tremendous amount written about him but let's go into his personal life for a quick moment okay He has three children, the rabbi of which is the oldest and um of course needing somebody to teach them. Unlike today people, not to be insensitive, but there's, you know, tuition is not the easiest thing in the world. I'm not minimizing it, but there's a little bit of a harder option. No, yes. That's a little bit of a harder option. So the the notion of even being able to uh have a yeshiva available that didn't exist. So he reaches out to his kav and tells at the time yakuchinis taka had a lot of there was a time period this is before things got really really bad and secularized there was still a a great need for kosher food. >> It was a big city huge and was very very Jewishly populated. But just to give you, you know, perspective on on on the on the Well, I'll get to it in a second, but at the moment, so he reached out to his and said, you know, I'm I'm here in Yakatinislav. I I need a and he obviously knew that he was a year. He knew him from childhood. He knew him very very well. Please come. Now, unlike today, he didn't send a WhatsApp message and he was on a flight 24 hours later. It it appears it took at least 9 to 11 months to actually make that trip between, you know, closing down his affairs and um in uh where where not Mamish Prada. He was not terribly far away. Um and then, you know, make his way by the time he arrives in Yakatrinis. Uh sadly, the the wave of secularism um keeps keeps getting stronger and there's no more need for another. Surlik says, "How's this? please teach my children and when a when a position opens you'll get it. Um admittingly so he was a little bit uncomfortable with that proposition. Um not that he was a balgiva and I say this wholeheartedly about his character. You'll read about his character in the book. It was more just unusual. I mean here you have this incredibly incredibly learner Tom Ham incredibly I would be it would be appropriate to call him. He he he he he didn't understand why he would, you know, cave teach Ka olive, but he obviously trusted trusted Reblavic. He of course happily admitted later on that that was the silliest thought that he ever had in his life. So in his little apartment, which there's photos of the exterior, I wish I could get the interior. Um but there's photos of the exterior. My uncles actually made a pilgrimage there many, many years ago. house. I have a wonderful photo of three of my uncles standing right outside the apartment and that is where the was. So it was I'll go slow so people can get a perspective. Also it was a mandatory schooling by the government. You had to sort of have excuses are you sick etc. I'll leave that aside for a second how they got out of that. So you have the Reba and then you had 11 other children. Now no overall he taught for nine nearly 10 years like nine years and and a bit. So let's just round 10 years he taught. Let's focus for a second at the beginning. So the Rebba was the oldest. The other two the Reb's brothers um were much too young. Rebana obviously knew that them sitting in a even though being much too young would be a much better influence than them sort of staying at home and doing nothing or so they would go as well. So the so the three of them would be there but the younger two at the beginning at least would just you know play on the floor and just be there to be in the environment and then there were others there was Gmid and I mentioned some of them in the book and um additionally uh Rabbi Okconor Schmutkin and Rabbi Abelender wrote a phenomenal book called early years and they go into a lot of detail as well about some of the Reb's classmates and those details again my perspective was specifically about my altaz derb zamin so the rebba joined in this brand new when he was 7 years old. So we know when the Reb was born in in 1902. So the Reb is 7 years old and uh uh Zman immediately realized immediately that the Reba is the Reba to put it mildly. They were one time learning and these and and some of these stories like Derrett he wouldn't always disclose sort of felt like it's it's it's more honorable to to respect the Reb's privacy but over the years he would disclose certain things about his experiences and thankfully with enough of with enough collection from so many people over the years able to get some clarity in what that was like. So basically the Reba um uh one one thing that he mentioned so the Rebba would learn with Rabbalman oneonone. It was very clear that the Reba was obviously ahead of the class and uh he he talked about uh how the Reb's mind was incredibly unusual. So he would learn uh he would learn with the Reba privately then uh then learn with the other children while the Reba did Khazar and it was almost like a flip-flop because the Reba was in in a drastically different uh universe. They were learning they were learning Gomorrah at one point. So we're talking from from basic from entry level and it's mentioned in the book in in other locations. So the Reb says what they learned. So he says he says that Rabb Zman taught me and Rashi and Gamorra and probably the most powerful powerful statement he put me on my feet. That's that's almost become a >> this is something that said after he passed away. Yes. Yes. And the the exact episode was was very beautiful where Rabbi Dr. Nissen Mandel whose daughter is my aunt. So whose daughter married my uncle Shaolin bear and so when Shaolin bear and Freda had a son um Rab Mandel was there and mentioned to the Reba that he was just blessed with a grandson and they named him Schneer's Alman after the Zeta. Well, after the babies, Elazada and that's when the Reba shared a lot of detail, but particularly that and it's all in the book. Uh, but particularly that statement that he put me on my feet and elaborated what they learned together >> and um we recently published an article about the great-grandfather which we relied on the book for a lot of information. So, that's how we ended off the article. what the Reb said about him. And then the Reb said that this new child should go in his ways following in his footsteps. Exactly. Exactly. And um that article I I it's un I don't know how uh so Dear Magazine is absolutely unbelievable. I know you're not the one being interviewed, but it's unbelievable. It's mish unbelievable on many levels. and people talk about it in first person like like it's an important part of many many people's lives. That article I've had so many discussions with so many people about. Again, it was such a incredible insight into something that I think some people were were less aware of and it's I encourage listeners to go on the archives. You can find it on the their hair website. It's very easy to find and it's an incredible article. It's obviously a shorter the book has way more detail but that is how um the Reba described his experiences in Rebman's that the Rebba started from Kumsh Rashi into Gamorra they would be learning together and the Reb excuse me Rabb Zman would skip over a complex typhus and the Reb would say no no no can't can't skip even one typhus just that's one of the things he said unbelievable the Reb would ask such incredible questions that He his he wouldn't he it was more it's not shot that sure there were definitely questions he couldn't even answer that that's almost like half the amazement that you have a child asking questions to to a going and he couldn't answer the question the bigger amazement was you don't expect these words to exit a child that that's the part that's even it's it blows you away that it's almost like imagine one day when you know you you wake up in the morning and all of a sudden your your 5-year-old speaks fluent Chinese it it it blows you away like what what just happened over here it doesn't make any sense. So now now you could understand why the Reba would have to learn privately with Rebelman and this happened for 4 and a half years which is absolutely tremendous that this is the the Reb's entire uh childhood education and this is uh frankly the only formal malam that the Reba ever had. Obviously we know about tremendous amount of this correspondence with the raach of course the rebel learns with as well but in terms of of uh let's call it a malamid this is it this is where it all started and how do you think it ended it ended exactly as you could imagine um zman turns to and says we're done shas you're shi bavi puskim I have nothing else to teach him and This is at 11 1/2. It's obvious to our listeners that yeah, that makes perfect sense. But I'm just nonetheless telling you the story. And that is how that segment now at the time and um continued because the brothers have aged um the two brothers is a and and Barl they have aged and now they're part of the um and there's also beautiful stories how they would perk up as very very young children commenting on what's going on in the class even though originally they were just tiny kids you know just being in the aier of Tyra one would think not even participating ultimately rebal taught until um the youngest child of Reblavvic uh was close to bar mitzvah around 12ish where at that age you know the theor sort of dismantled and then excuse me and then he went back to um there's a lot more about his life u in general as an individual and how he raised his children and the and the nefes of the time in yakanis love >> so may Maybe maybe close off just in in short going through like you know what happened to him how he came to America and also after >> sure >> you know I think he lived in Cleveland just let's let's do a little let's do it in in short just finish off that chapter of blank >> sure sure so uh Zman like I said and um stop learning together my my grandmother Kana Valenin um on the on the on so if anyone one's familiar with Jem has a phenomenal a phenomenal series >> called early years. She's the first interviewer. She's the very first interview and she was obviously very young but she does have recollections already the Reba being older as a bach coming over and borrowing. Remember Zman had a tremendous amount of Sarim and uh so the Reba finished with the but still continued to live with his family in Yakunislav. Uh fast forwarding to fast forward um the Yakatrinis Silverlavvic as we know um eventually eventually had to leave Yakatrinis. It's guess a polite way to put it >> right >> exiled. >> Exiled exiled and then around that same time the war broke out and then everybody fled. So you have you have uh Rab Zalman along uh with his family. At that point his uh his f first wife passed away. So he got remarried and um so he I'll give you the short version basically from Yakinislav he fled. I'm definitely summarizing it but there's a lot of good detail in the book. Um and I'm sure the readers will have a real appreciation for what it means in the middle of the war to have no money to have no food. >> Your grandparents were with them. So, interestingly, this is a whole another episode, but I won't I won't want to I won't elaborate. But the 10-second version is that June of 1941 is when Russia entered World War II, but prior to that, there was a treaty. So, Tashim made a treaty. I don't mess with you and you don't mess with me. So, Hitler and Stalin >> Nazis and the Russians, >> right? So, imagine Hitler and Stalin Stalin. >> Yeah. Tai made a deal and unfortunately and then that deal blew up. So basically in by the time June of 1941 what happened was uh Lipa was live living with his wife Hana in Yakrinis but but uh that at that moment she went um to visit her father in Yakrin excuse me they were living in Lenningrad a thousand miles away in Yakatrinlav she went to visit. While she was on that visit is when the war broke out. So now Lip and >> Nazis invaded Russia. >> Correct. So now you have Lipa and Khana are a thousand miles apart. No communication. the war breaks out and it's it's it's it's really it's really just so otherworldly ultimately. >> Any kids yet? >> They did have at that point they had one kid who Nebach did not survive and who did not survive. Uh they actually had a second kid later unfortunately who also didn't survive. Um so my oldest uncle is actually the third child. >> Um should live and be well. So now you have Rab Zelman with his visiting daughter. Actually two visiting daughters. It was the same thing. Like they both came to visit. They each had a baby. So um two of his daughters came to visit. He has sons as well who are mentioned in the book. They were off in yeshiva. But what's going on in Yakinislav? It's him, his wife, his two daughters. And each one of them have their baby. They came for a visit. The war breaks out. Um they need to leave. And uh immediately they go eventually they end up at a town near the Caspian Sea which I which I failed to get the pro proper pronunciation. And it's a mah, it's a tough pronunciation. And he was there for a stickle of time with a lot of other refugees. And I I have details in the book about how he um was a incredible mashpa to the refugees ultimately making it to Tashkant um which is in for for those that don't know which is in um which is in Usbekiststan. after afterward without getting into every detail there was the famous great escape and from Tashkant made it to Lav Lmberg from Lmberg eventually made it to the DP camps in Pucking which >> so your grandparents ended up reconnecting and going to Tashkant >> my right so my grandparents were separated for a year and a half during the war yeah this wasn't an overnight sensation what I just said in one second took took a long time so yeah during the war they eventually so they were separated in 1941 and eventually reunited in 43 and lived for the duration of the war in Tashkant. And as soon as the opportunity got became to flee to flee the Soviet Union, they did so with many other labav families. And there's incredible detail and photographs as well of people and and and I'll get to the I'll get to the flea in a second because uh there's a few secrets that I I I unraveled that uh I really appreciate. So your absol basically uh leave escapes Russia, ends up in a displaced person's camp. I talk about a lot a lot of his activity there. They from the displaced person's camp they go and they go to Paris. From Paris the plan was obviously to um get to the United States. The joint um was incredible. Mameish uh if you read about what the joint did, Mamish Sadikim and they uh enabled they enabled the refugees to have stability. They they took they took over a hotel. They got them housing. They tried to you know they gave them a stipen. They gave them clothing trying to find them a job. They'reish incredible and and there's a lot of correspondence between Zalman and the Fredic which is all in the book and there's also correspondence between Zalman and the Reba because he was he ended up staying there up until 1953 after the Reba after the Reba was Reba and and um the Reba definitely behind the scenes tried to uh get him visas and all these kinds of things and was successful but unfortunately Zaman's health did not allow him to travel. So he eventually after his recovery 1953 Zelman with his wife Zelda and uh I think at the time it was only one of his daughters his other daughter shortly followed afterward. My my grandmother and um her husband Rivipa and children they followed shortly thereafter. This is the first time now it's 1953 that the Reba and Ralman were unite. He was the joint the American Joint Distribution Committee um were having him settled in Cleveland and the way it worked was that it was all privately funded by the joint. They would mammish collect money from American Jews and sure beyond. And there they were quotas for cities for refugees. You couldn't just, you know, pick your city on a map. But on their way to Cleveland, they came to Crown Heights and this is the first time that Zalman and the Reba are meeting each other in basically decades. Among is brought to you by We live in a chaotic world. A world where for us is au we do not have the ability to hear and see the on a daily basis. Yet we know that the is very much with us and is alive and thriving more than ever before. One needs to only tap into it. provides you and your family with the tools necessary to tap into all of this. Whether it's the monthly magazine, the way it all began, whether it's their hair books, their hair online content, and so much more, men, women, and children throughout the world benefit and use these tools on a daily basis. Whether it's children enjoying the children's magazine that comes along with the regular dehair or enjoying the children's podcast. Whether it's Bakim in Yeshivas receiving the deer, whether it's girls in high schools enjoying their hair club in their local high school, people all over the world and from all walks of life enjoy and utilize these tools and take advantage of it. If you're not already subscribed to the monthly magazine, do so today at deher.org. That's der.org. The hair is a dynamic organization which is committed to continue providing these tools, grow on a constant basis, and do all that we can to help this effort. Barakashem, it takes a lot of resources and finances to make this all happen. You can be part of the through your financial support as well through visiting our website.org or through contacting us to setting up a meeting. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the podcast. I spoke with Ed Springer. So the mashpia, his wife, her name is Eda Adel. She is my father's first cousin. So Zalman had a daughter Dena. I was telling you about Dena married Mayor Drosski. So this is her daughter Eda Davski who eventually became Edbringer. So she was there and unfortunately she passed away recently. I conducted at least four interviews with her over the course of the book and she was there firsthand to describe the Zman walks in. >> She was in the room. >> She was in the room because she had just come from Paris. They had finally had come to the United States. She was in the room with her parents and grandparents and they come in the Emil stands up and greets his Mhammed Zman is elderly like I even said his his his uh his health wasn't uh great because that's one of the reasons why he couldn't leave Paris sooner even though he had all the proper documentation. Zman would not and nor would any sit during a it's not appropriate to sit in front of the rebba. The rebba would not sit in front of his mama. So they both stood. The went on for somewhere about 45 minutes and they were standing the entire time. Eda shared with me that the Reba was trying to persuade Zalman to sit down because he's elderly wanted him to sit and said it's in the book the exact quote 40 years ago we sat together on one bench we sat together learning together we could we could sit together now as well and uh Zalman did say later on that he felt very badly he made the Reba stand but at the cost of sitting in front of the Reba That was the first that they had when they came to the United States. So then they were obviously right outside and eager to see, eager to hear all the details how that went. He then went on to Cleveland. Tremendous correspondence in the book. A lot of letters from the Reba about everything going on um in Cleveland. Everything from his Shiorim to his Fbrangans um which communities he's living in because he started off in in in one community and then the Jewish community moved. So he he went to let's call it the newer Jewish community. He had a lot of shirum with Baham and tells the famous Telashiva that uh was sadly destroyed in Lithuania was reestablished right after the war in Cleveland. So Reb Zalman would the Baham would come over to his home and they would fra and have Shirim and so there's a tremendous amount of incredible correspondence. Um so which which really gives you a real uh insight. Fast forward a couple of years. Um, Reb Salman really wants to move to Crown Heights, be closer to the Reba, um, be closer to his children, obviously his, um, you know, able to get there as well. So, and there's a lot of details about that move, but I'll just I'll try to fast forward a little bit. So, now he's about to come back to Crown Heights. This is approximately 1960, and there's a second, right? Because now he's back in Crown Heights. However, he wasn't as strong as he was the first time physically. So, he comes into the My uncle Shaolin bear was holding him, physically holding his arm. My uncle Sha Bear told me, you know, he he was obviously extremely nervous standing in front of the Rebba with his za. Um, and the Rebba even told him to, you know, hold him better because he was so nervous. He was a tiny bit, you know, wobbly. and he uh my uncle felt badly about that but I I I assured him that he didn't do anything wrong. Um so in that he had no choice and he profusely apologized to the Reb and said I I really need to sit. I I I wish I could >> in general he was in a wheelchair right at that point. >> Um I I don't believe at that point he was in a wheelchair but he definitely uh was not able to to comfortably walk or stand for long periods. So he said, um, I mean, it could be, but I I don't believe so. No, because otherwise they probably would have will him into the >> Well, he was later. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he apologizes and sits down and um they have their second yakis and now he's living in Crown Heights on Lincoln place very close by and because he wasn't in he wasn't extremely healthy it was challenging for him to come to the fans so he had this is what he would do this was his strategy he would either come before he would either come before this way he because it takes a long time to get to his seat. He wasn't well and therefore the forbidden would start. The trouble is he couldn't sit the entire forbing because he couldn't physically sit you know for a very long time. The Reb would put him very prominently uh right behind him sort of like by the deis and um the Reb would give him and and give him and give him a piece of cake but he couldn't he wasn't able to stay the entire time. So he would try his best to leave during a niggan to be less disruptive. The trouble is that the ebb would not be seated while his mama is standing. So the Reb would sit up a little bit with which what appears to be the intention of not inconveniencing the entire olym and making everyone stand but at the same time the rebba would stand for his malam. Then of course it appears that most of the stood up noticing the reba standing and it would take some time for him to leave that he would strategize the other way perhaps come in middle of a niggan and then then being able to stay till the end of the fbrangan. Either way getting in and out would always would be very disruptive. So he actually stopped going to Fbrangan because he felt bad for the Reba and felt bad for for the others presence. So there were it appears that there were many forbrasans that he did attend until he felt that it was it was not nice to the other. It >> was a whole to-do every time he came. >> Absolutely. Whatever strategy you picked, whether he came earlier and left in middle or came in middle and left at the end, he couldn't win. um but always continue to have an extremely close um relationship, you know, and and and you see it in the correspondence. He um in he eventually aged and um my my uncle Shalom Bear would was with lived I think he lived by him because of yeshiva. So he was in yeshiva so he lived in his he lived this in his apartment and he came in and he noticed that he was not speaking very clearly. Uh he used to um anytime he wasn't learning something he would be he would learn all the time. That was just the status quo always learning. But if he wasn't like learning in front of a cafer I remember my my uncle Abel once uh once said when he was there as well that that sometimes it was hard almost to like say shalom again be put into perspective a child because he would say okay great grab a mishn make sure I don't make any mistakes. So now you were cavi stuck making sure that you're following along that he uh anyway in a nutshell he had a stroke and um and uh Dr. Zelixen was involved and the Rebba intervened and actually got him some matzah because matzah is a food of healing and was and again a lot of these details about from his stroke and how incredibly involved I mean you know one thing I took away from that whole piece is just very interesting I I I didn't put it in the book I mean the incredible dar that the had for his childhood Muhammad you know I I will say that if I visit crown Heights and I pass by you know my Mhammed from fourth grade. Of course I'll show I will I mean you know but this is this is this is unbelievable. I mean this is like oh yeah that was my my my you know my teacher or whatever. We could learn a lot from the way the rabbi treated Zam and Valenin literally how somebody treats their Mhammed 40 years later. >> Yeah. So, so Derba um was very involved in in that entire time period about being in touch with do Dr. Zelixen about his about his health status even when he ultimately had to be hospitalized. Reb sent a specialist and my my aunt Raisel when she was there visiting Garza remembers that the the doctors were all uh up in a buzz about wow there's this tremendous uh you know prominent doctor that came to visit this you know this patient no one knows no one really understood the nature of it but theba um was very involved in his care until he ultimately passed away even after he passed away the rebba um held the arin at his levia which is extremely only rare went to the basic did not go inside because uh the rebba shared within on the drive back that he didn't make the proper aas because if he had to go into the basic he'd have to go to the fba and he wasn't uh prepared but the rebba went to the lava and the funded funded funded the the cir asked that the two sisters give a dollar because the children are meant to pay the fee for their parents' burial So uh again there were four children but two of the boys were unfortunately stuck back in Russia and the two girls were in Crown Heights I'm sorry um in the United States not in Crown Height well one was in Crown Heights one was in Cleveland anyway so the Reba paid for the paid for the Levia or paid for the burial and then later on with the mata the same thing the rabbi wanted to pay a third and the two sisters paid the additional 2/3 and of course um they submitted to theirb the matsa and they felt bad submitting with the piece with the piece that says that um you know that Salman was the Reb's teacher. They weren't sure how that would come across. Maybe it would be a little bit they just felt it wasn't the best idea. When the Reb looked at the first draft of the mata said why doesn't it say that he taught >> and I'm a witness I was there. So the rabbi changed it and and inserted that and you could see and there's a photo obviously it's written about in the book but more specifically there's a photo in there of Zman's caf and you could see what I'm referring to with the Reb added that that and that he learned with Jewish children with the Reb's name etc. So that is on >> added that part but added his name though or just >> Yeah. Yeah. The added part that not only did he teach but he had to teach the Reb meaning him. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And uh it's obviously and it's right there in his Matava. I actually took I don't live in Crown Heights. So I would every time I would during the process every time I would go to the oil I try to get another picture and it just what if it's middle of the night? I was trying to get a good picture. Ultimately the best picture was like a schmucka picture in the snow and that's the one that ended up in the book with like a snow streaking down. Um and >> he's buried right near the >> fork for him. Yeah. when you if you uh if instead of making a left directly into the aisle, the first cave as we know is Dashag. Three three or four more mats farm over is where Zama is Malamid is buried and ultimately he lived a long life. He was born in 1878 and passed away in 1963 64 it's in the book accurately 63 or 6. He lived he lived well into his 80s and he's just an incredible individual. I mean I I barely to scraped the surface on who he was, what his life was about, his impact on people, on communities, but um I hope that the listeners got an idea in terms of who this great person was and um in the Reb's own words, how he influenced the Reba and of course the tremendous tremendous had for him. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. It's really amazing. So you were talking about Cleveland um which obviously Zin Valink was there and your grandparents were there also your grandfather. So I know there's a lot there. That's another article we wrote in the about your grandfather's it's not only his story but it's also what he was doing there that has a big lesson. So I want to hear about that. But before that maybe just you mentioned in passing that you have some new things about the great escape. Um, so maybe I want to hear about Cleveland. Maybe just talk about The Great Escape and you know your contribution to that story. >> Sure. >> Uh, in the book and then we'll talk about Cleveland. >> So I I believe I read almost anything I could get my hands on in regard to The Great Escape. Um, >> there's an article in the hair about that as well. >> Very well done. Extremely well done and fantastic citations. I mean, anyone watching this knows their hair, so it's kind of silly for me to talk about it. Um, >> not necessarily. They know, but I don't know if everyone subscribes. So, please encourage everyone. >> I definitely encourage everyone any everyone to subscribe. Um, if you're on the fence about it, just get my cell phone number and I'll uh I'll put you up for the first year if that's your if you're doubting it and then from there. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, if somebody texts me and says, "I saw you on the podcast and I saw you ying about the incredible The Hair magazine." Uh, no problem. I'll I'll uh I'll back it up as >> Are you giving out your phone number as well? >> No, I I think you need to have the your own gumption to figure it out. You know, in Labavich, I think there's two degrees of separation. There's not one person in Labavage I can't get their cell phone number. I could get Levia's phone number tomorrow if I try hard enough, right? And I'm not Leviath. I'm just a simple guy. So, the point is I, you know, I'm obviously trying to put my money where my mouth is, but I think um I'm being genuine and I'll do it for to to to the degree I'm able. This is by no means a shua. let's just put a big ble nether next to it to the best of my ability. But if you're sincerely on the fence and you and you basically say, you know what, I'm going to take this character up on his offer as offer and I get a WhatsApp message. Hey, and then I will I will execute. De hair is an incredible incredible magazine. There's nothing like it. And to the degree, this is a funny small story that I had so many years ago when discovering their hair and just loving it and appreciating it. I remember thinking, "O how do I get a hold of the old issues?" And um this is I think this is maybe 2020 cuz I I remember it being roughly COVID time. There was a email that went out. You could buy all the old all the old issues. I think like hundreds whatever it was. I whatever the big number was. I immediately jumped on it and the website wasn't working and episode was a wrong link and I'm emailing them like how many do they have already? And I I finally coped it. Fast forward a little while later. I just to >> just to share with the readers that it's not just a one man's opinion although nothing wrong with one man's opinion. Shortly thereafter, um I remember um sitting with a kav of mine um where were we? I forgot exactly the setting we were in. More like a we like bumped into each other at a place and having a similar conversation and somehow their hair came up and I like by the way did you jump on that? He's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. I immediately jumped on that." So if you have multiple people jumping on old issues, I hope it gives you a glimpse into what kind of publication this is. Um, yeah, their the hair is incredible. So, that that article on The Great Escape was incredibly well done. In general, I'm I'm incredibly amazed how you always always keep it keep it fresh. I've I've never opened up uh an issue. I was It's always insightful in terms of wow, yet another another uh area uh uncovered. So, the great escape, which is obviously a very prominent episode in Labavage history, was very well documented in deer. So the so I basically read up on everything in English available um about the great escape or beal this anything surrounding the last uh you know 100 years of labage history basically mid 1800s almost to the present and we'll get later on into what what do I mean by the present I mean really present um so my cousin so his name is Nah Schwarz so just for some of the readers that can appre listeners that could appreciate this so you have Shapiro I mentioned He had a brother named Leviche. He also had a sister named Sarelka who married Shia Gapin. So there was Lipa Leviche and Sarela. They lived in Eritis. Those are the parents of the famous Mashia Guppin. There was two more siblings that Nebuch >> and uh Gapin who there's another episode. >> Oh, fantastic. and I believe >> which by the time this will be out will have been released already >> and he was a great help as well. Um there's a letter that he provided information but also a letter and a photo that ended up in the book that he was very helpful for. Um so and then there were two additional siblings who unfortunately um did not make it and they're written about in the book. So you have you have uh Repla's brother uh Leviche married to Guta. Um they have a daughter they have a daughter Raisel and she has a son named Nub. This cousin of mine he's my second cousin Nim a wonderful individual had the foresight to interview my deeppa on video. It's the only video interview that we have. Uh anyone out there thinking about interviewing their parents? I mean today the world is a lot different. It's much easier. You just grab >> he wasn't but he was on Jam also >> I don't believe no my Zeta was on Gem sitting with my Bubba I do not believe my Zeta was individually interviewed for Je to my knowledge I'm pretty sure not um he was very helpful of course because he had spoken a tremendous amount with his father-in-law with his share of Zelman he was also insightful and participated in that interview but as it pertains to a video interview just pragmatically you could read a person's lips so if someone's later on in age or things of that nature it is it was so much easier to transcribe a video interview than an audio interview. It's night and day. So, Nah has this video interview and this is where the stuff came up. So, my Zade is talking about just a thousand things, you know, all over the place, you know, I get a lot of information all firsthand and then finally something novel comes up. He says the Bria, they saved us. I don't even know what that is. I mean, I know he escaped from Russia and, you know, everyone had to get passports and paperwork and sneak. Who who exactly is the Briha? I'm I'm not aware. I never heard of them. I don't even know what it is. And frankly, it kind of put me in this whole new space of t just because you walked out of the Soviet Union, how do you end up in the American zone in the comfort of the DP camp? Comfort in the sense of like you're not being shot at. Not comfort. That's not the four seasons. But think about think about it practically. You know, you don't have a dollar. You don't have a phone. You you don't have a lang. There's nothing. I start going down this incredible path of finding out who are the Brika and how they saved us. The Bria were Israelis were a Zionist youth movement cav just just youth, but a Zionist movement of people who were not religious and they were doing everything they could to move people out. So two two major components one to get people out of Russia but addition or right when they g came out of Russia to get them to safety there were some Brian members which snuck into Russia there's uh 10 of them that we know that were executed because they mamish went into Russia took Jews out and they were executed but most of their activity because that was you could imagine that's daunting to sneak into Soviet Russia but they as soon as the people escaped Russia them they where worthy. Imagine you pull up in the train station in Crock cuz Krakow is the first city into Poland. There is not a black cab waiting for you with a sign that says welcome Cayman family. Like it's not it's not like that, you know. So basically now so you're saying that the were organizing the escape but what happens post the escape that's where the briah stepped in. >> Correct. >> Tremendously >> and I will give a bit of a bigger background upon the research. It comes there is an straw like a Bria legacy association. Yat Vashm does have a tremendous amount on them but in a nutshell it's really deemed the most undocumented uh tremendous part of Holocaust related Holocaust related and I think logically it's not it's not unreasonable because obviously the Holocaust has a tremendous amount of uh documentation and what to be written about and meant to be discussed obviously. So I think that some of the post uh Holocaust activities I guess were a bit outshined. Doesn't mean that they were any less. The Bria I want to make sure I get the right number because it is absolutely tremendous. The Bria clandestantly moved. Pardon me. They moved. I wanted to make sure to get the exact number because even though you could read about it on sorry uh right over here they moved 200,000 Jews fleeing Eastern Europe between 1944 and 1948. It was an underground organization focused on aiding Holocaust survivors and Jews escaping from communist regimes giving them a chance to rebuild their lives after the war. So again, there's a tremendous amount more on them and their relationship with the how they were incredibly impressed by these that are so committed to Yiddish and so committed to their reb in New York. I mean these Israelis were incredibly impressed and there's so not only who the bria were miser nephesh to help their messer nephesh to help their brethren they ultimately held them by the hand along additionally the vadola was incredible as well and I talk about that because my bubby in those interviews I told you about during um during the social studies project for basifa talked about the vada as well. Um so their their their contributions are in the in in terms of the um arriving in Krakow. The Bria essentially was like this. How are we going to get these newly arrived Jews in Krakco all the way? So you're in >> Krakco. I thought they were in Lav. >> No, Lav is still in the Soviet Union. That's the last city. You get on a train. >> Oh, from to Krakco. Okay. >> Now you're in Krakco. So they were also involved in the escape. Obviously, we have a a tremendous metal labage history about labavators being involved in that piece of the but they were also they were also falsifying. But more bigger picture is now you crossed over into the border. You safely made it. You made it. Now you're in Krakco. Now you're in Poland. You're several countries away from the safety of the American war zone. You're in Poland. They don't want you. You're in trouble there. Plus even some KGB people were still hanging out in Krakco looking for escapes. Then you have Czechoslovakia. Then you have Austria. And you finally have Germany. They essentially took them by the hand. Sometimes in cars, sometimes in trains, and sometimes by foot all the way to to to safety. They did it for lab and they did it for hundreds of thousands of Jews. Mameish. It is the greatest it's the greatest facilitation uh transfer in modern history that we know of and I have been very blessed with obtaining in incredible photos incredible photos about their even gathering still in Russia or still in Krakco saying this is what we're going to do we're going to go on this arduous journey by foot for months mom she's DS Mim to find and and I have I was able to even meet family members with some of the photos and They're all very very well named about going through the forest. Some of these photos they push it needed for fundraising purposes that there's a photo lush of them escorting and you see they all look like Zionist youth. They have like the the boy scout look with like the shirt and the shorts and it's all there and then you see like these from the families like you know maybe they have like one little suitcase and a casket and you know they had thankfully there were a few photos here and there because this enabled them to obviously you know fund some of this but >> Oh they they took they took the photos for fundraising purposes. >> Yeah. And there's not a tremendous amount because you know you're middle of a forest but you know eventually if if you're trying to fund hundreds of thousands of people moving you got to be able to convey that message to somebody somehow. Now at this point the war is over. People understood but that's why BLA the Holocaust Museum even has such photos. It's a tremendous letter which is one of my favorite parts of of this uh chapter on the great escape. Um it's signed by Rabbi Niss Mandel. Um it's you know on behalf of the Fidikba. So, so Lav is here. Okay. Hucking DP camp is here. It's Eric 600 miles. 600 miles sounds like garish if you have a flight. But if you're walking, oh boy, it's quite it's quite the distance if you're walking at the halfway point in a city uh Opel. Am I pronouncing it right? Opil up Poland. Basically, um, if I grabb was inquiring about a kitchen because on that way they the joint had a kitchen there and wanted to see to it there was kosher food for them while they're escaping because there were little stops along the way where people could get some food, some medical attention. And this is all noted in in the book and it's, you know, photos and documents. But to me, the Briha just absolutely um, absolutely took that whole episode of the great escape and took it to a new madrega. I you know I reached out to the to the Brika Institute and um in Shalim or sorry not somewhere in Arrell and that to me anyone that reads a chapter in the great escape will definitely have a tremendous insight on who these people were what they had to do to hold their brethren by the hand now a lot of them were motivated to ultimately get them to stroll to help establish a country by h push at having more people but they weren't that biased meaning we're here to save you want to go to stroll I'm going to help you out we'll get you there we're going to get you to British and a Palestine if you'd like. Um, by no means did they, uh, say, you know, uh, I'm only helping you out tonight. You come. No, it was nothing like that. And these were mamish mamish, uh, sadikim that help refugees, um, escape. I even have a photo of them sitting around typewriters, you know, creating falsified documentation because every single country you need it. So, how you going to get now from Austria to Germany? How you going to get from Czechoslovakia? Every little step along the way. Um, yeah. >> Okay. Perfect. It's amazing. What did you discover about the life of >> Ping? Life of Pucking. So, here's something that's actually very insightful to both my grandfather and great-grandfather. My great-grandfather, like I said, was ah, my Za actually lived, but was also ah. So, imagine the following. You're coming out of the woods and you finally come to the safety the safety of a DP camp. Yeah. You're sleeping on a cot. No problem. You have zero privacy. uh but you're not dead so that's wonderful and you're not being traced any longer was not very pleased that a lot of the were easy to trust the they set up facilities the theat along with the joint set up facilities but it all comes down to the and he wasn't terribly and now I I I don't fault they're starving they probably haven't had a piece of chicken in years I mean I I don't fault them I'm just telling you my how it was so so first they tried to compel Absol and say come on it's fine you know look look look look look look look look look look look look look look at their appearance he's like well it doesn't matter about their religious attire that's that's not how uh that's not how we judge anyway uma mise stood up it was right beforeashana and everyone was obviously dependent on the on the meat and basically said we're going to have a milik rashana until this is worked out and uh so it was so they ate milk for rishana And um and after quickly afterward they you know they resolved it. It's unclear if they you know who they appointed but Rabbi Scha never in his exact words said that the only that he and he recommends every single labra to only eat is from Reb Zman and Reb Zman at the time was one of the rashivas in the yeshiva and pucking. I act I actually have this is not from the lab source which is amazing meaning to say you know one would assume oh you probably got this from the rabbis library nothing of there's tremendous amount of things I have from v various other sources uh this I believe it's again my my sources are on the on and the in the credit section I have the entire I have a five-page report concerning yesim and its associated divisions in the pucking DP camp so I have a thing about the operation expenses I have about the list of brim Then they have the anal. So in the hala you see very clearly that the manal is remnisimov and then you have right over here on um on line n you see the rashiva for shir bay is harav zam vvelen. So he was busy in the yeshiva teaching. It's unclear to me how he had time to also be a part of the maybe he helped with um training or observation. It's a little bit unclear. But also they set up an entire an entire thing for him. So maybe that quickly resolved itself once they trained a tremendous amount of them to be. And there's photos and documentation about what that what that was all about cuz their goal was obviously to give them stability and enabled them to have jobs. They didn't just sit around the DP camp, you know, playing checkers like everyone kept busy and worried about their future. Um so so in the DP camp, um Labavaj basically if you know for the first time were free. They finally were able to celebrate in in true freedom. They set up yeshivas. and and and girl schools as well and and you see visuals and documentation for for every single one of this um and it's it's a breath of fresh air. It really really after you read the first section of the book and really about realizing about the incredible oppression being under and finally being able to enter this free world where you could practice one of my favorite photos. I I there oh there's a photo of Rebbit and Khan which I'll allow the readers to enjoy and I discuss Rabbit and Khan about her experiences in the DP camp, how she got out and um and reunited with the Reba um from the perspective of of the laborers in the DP camp. Obviously, it's written about tremendously, but there's an incredible photo on Simcaster with with um Rabbid Bravman. So, this photo, why is there a photo in again the joint had to take photos to fund raise hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to help out our brethren in the DP camp? So, there's a great photo. >> Yeah. >> Um ofid and you see has like his talis, you know, his talis is half on. It's, you know, it's funny. Cracks me up. Nothing changes, >> right? >> This photo is from 1947. He could have been walking out. >> When I when I saw that that when I saw that picture, that was like my thought that that's that's a pose, >> right? So he has his daughter. >> Is he holding a bottle of mashka? >> No, he has his daughter. It's his daughter. It looks like a bottle mash because he's clenching his fist as >> Yeah. >> So his you look very closely, it's just his fist and his daughter is in his other hand. He's holding her. His talis is like halfway off. Um and it's it's it's it's an incredible photo. if finally someone could celebrate and they're not in some basement sha basement, you know, still at hate doing a coff. It's it's it's unbelievable. It's it's one of the most powerful photos in the entire book. Um so pucking was was their first um avenue to freedom and uh and um and this really enabled them to get back on their feet. Yeah, they you know there's they receive clothing and food and and and uh and re and think about the bakim for a second. Most of them through the hardship of war didn't even learn any yeshiva or or learn properly prior to the war in Russia who had the opportunity. So they had to reestablish yeshiva that didn't fashm the older Baham that didn't have a chance cuz if you're younger it makes sense you're in sh if you're brand new we don't expect you to know much so to speak but not everyone had the privilege like my even though his hardship of running around to the underground yeshivas was was arduous but at least he had the privilege of learning a lot of people didn't even have that opportunity and at this point they're they're they're semi you know they're quite elderly so they they were very strategic in making sure that everyone was able to learn at their level while also making sure no one's fashem because you may have someone who I'm already 18. I feel silly learning with the 14-year-olds. So, they would make a shear for them for other 18-year-olds who due to hardship of war and communism were we're not up to par. And >> and the generation that uh we grew up in and some of our mashima learned in these parking. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Absolutely. And and you see in the photos um and I this was one of the hardest parts is getting everybody's name. You could see one photo with 15 names. Uh you could imagine what it took to identify everyone correctly. Um sometimes I would do it based on look like okay this looks like a so and so >> right. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. So let's move on to Cleveland. So your your grand Zam Lincoln and your grandparents came to the they came the same time. They were they were >> came the same time. >> Yeah. So they made it out of pucking to Paris. Paris was meant to >> Paris but then they came to Paris to to United States at the same time as well. >> Yeah. In the same short period of time. Uh >> okay. So I know there's a lot of rich history with you mentioned abalan and your grandfather in Cleveland and what they were doing there with Tels etc. Maybe you could talk about that. >> Sure. And I'll give you some stuff that didn't make it into the book. Not not because there's anything wrong with it. It's be I'll get to it. So uh these um immigrants are coming from uh Paris. Paris was meant to be a short six-w week stint ended up being for them six years. Rib Zalman was only because of his of his frail health and the Shapiro pushed for gathering papers. Interestingly my dear Ripa's sister Sarela Guppin they actually got their papers early. They ended up going to Aritrol. They actually thought okay whatever paper comes we'll just maybe we'll end up in Arit. It wasn't it wasn't like today where choices anyway. Um in 1953 first Rabb Zelman along with his wife and uh one of his daughters and son-in-law they they get they go first and then my Za my Za Lepa's brother which Leviche um he and his family um also went this is all in the same very short period of time um they actually received letters in Paris from Leviche about America and a few of the things are just interesting. One was the amazement. When you go to a supermarket, you get a bag. When you go to the cleaners, they give it back to you on a hanger. The golden medina. >> That's funny. >> Yeah. So, I document those letters where he's writing what's America like. Um, Ribba comes to the United States similarly to Rib Zalman stops in Crown Heights, stays with his old friend Ribia, who he knows from Kremmanshuk. have some fascinating stuff in Riia Cororf and the DP campfis. >> Um, no I no I at least I I don't believe so. Ribshia Cororf uh um my de Lipa uh learned with him or rather under him in Kmanuk. >> Okay. >> So when he comes to Crown Heights uh he stayed by him for those few days uh in route to Cleveland. They come into Yiddis and I elaborate in detail. Uh, one interesting thing I want to note about the where obviously wants to want to be in Crown Heights who doesn't and he actually asked the should I um should I just stay and the Reba said definitely not for the joint they not only brought you here to the United States but they have you set up in Cleveland and the Reb said more importantly and this is what his Cleveland should know as like the Reb basically said don't like go to Cleveland you have a tremendous um to do there. But he did for a moment say, you know, now mind you that pragmatically the joint housed you and gave you uh you know a stipen to live and they got you on your feet and they just didn't have the opportunity to just place every single person in Brooklyn. It wasn't it wasn't that simplistic in terms of visas and all that kind of stuff. They would if they could. It wasn't that easy. Anyways, sir Abba comes in 1953 and while he's there, so he has his brother, he has his his father, his father Abna, my namesake, and he has he has his share and basically the entire Shapiro Valankan family in the early 50s is in Cleveland. Like I said earlier, um Cleveland um uh the biggest I guess there was a lot of institutions and a lot of Scholes and Funkite was already um pretty well established. Uh the Hebrew Academy, which is like their primary um um at that point was 50% refugees. a lot of Americanborn but 50% children of refugees. There was also a caliver yeshiva the caliver who later on moved to stroll. He lived in Cleveland for a period of time. I have photos of him with some talmid as well. Um that was like I guess you could say the and but that closed down. So my uncles started off there. Some of them, the older ones started over there and then when that closed down they moved to Hebrew Academy which is also um um you know yeshiva um it was under the the desers um which was more you know yeshivish uh there these are the children of the famous Rav Desler. They're the ones that established um the Hebrew Academy. Sometimes people say Hebrew Academy that you think sort of like a kabad house school. Hebrew academy here meant it was like their version of alterra. was uh maybe it started out as a day school but it quickly shifted to more shashiva and so there was Hebrew Academy and then you had a bunch of from Schulz there was Taylor road synagogue and Eddie road synagogue and uh and you had Shamir Shabas but but Tel's yeshiva in terms of the broader audience would be the biggest most worldrenown I actually had a fantastic interview with let me back up I I jumped too quickly so he comes to Cleveland there's t life this is the part that didn't make it into the book push it because it was very hard to validate every me once I heard four different versions of the story and it wasn't very clear. Anyway, what do you do when you come to a new town? First thing you do is check out the mestas. So, uh so my Zeta goes and tries to you know hears about you know this this yeshiva this tells yes and um it's this is part that's vague. So I'm going to clarify all the vagueness and sort of give you the bigger picture. It's a little bit vague, but something to the degree where some of the rashas were doing what you would call simple things like maybe he saw one rasha like mowing his lawn, not mowing, sorry, watering his lawn and another rashiva like the boys were playing ball, sort of sitting nearby and maybe talking with them, maybe even playing with them. It was it was that part was incredibly vague because I did a bunch of interviews and because it was it was not clear, I left it out. But I think the bigger picture stands that at first he was a little bit surprised like Shiva like watering his lawn or doing mundane things. He never heard of such things. Vital, who are these people? And he admitted very very quickly that uh that that was a mistake. These people are incredible people. And he as a as a refugee coming from a different place didn't really acclimate to America that it wasn't the biggest sin to water your lawn. Wasn't such a big anyway. Um tells Yeshiva was nearby where they lived. Sir Zalman would give Shirum. They they did they know who he was? It appears. I don't have you know I I I spoke to Rabbi Gifter Mora Gifter was one of the Rash like the it sounds like him and Rabbi Satskin were like the two Russells and I had spoken to Rabbi Gifter's son Binyamin told me something very interesting this part only that part I mentioned is not in the book but this part is where Rabb Gifter realized very quickly who Ribba is actually in that interview I was telling you about the video interview he said in English because the whole interview was in Yiddish but my Z paused and or Rev. Gifter, my best friend. Then he switched into English for that one. Maybe because Ref Gifter was an American. >> He was American. Yeah. >> Yeah. Very American. Um even though he spoke an incredible Yiddish, but he said, "Ah, my best friend." And with a big smile. If anybody wants that interview, I'll happily share it. So, so, so Binyam told me that his father realized immediately what kind of guy Ribblipa is. This is this is someone who's incredible. So, he he set up to learn with him. teach him and from and he said it was twofold. One to not pass up on an opportunity to to grab him you know while he's still available eventually you'd get more busy get more established with a job but also to give parnasa to a to a new refugee because it you know it took a minute to get on your feet and because eventually he was ah but I don't think these were overnight sensations. Um I have incredible pictures of Rabbi Seratski and the other Russia of tales at my uncle Gabriel Gavil Shapiro's bar mitzvah. Um Rav Gifter Punk was out of town for that baritzvah. So he's not you don't see him in those photos. You see his wife at my at my father's bar mitzvah. The point is that my was very close with Rgifter and Rabbi Satskin and the and and those at Telss. And I have great pictures of the Tel Bakim at a purifan with my Za absolutely phenomenal. So he would give Shir and Gumar to them and in this a lot more detail as to the nature of like what happened in these gimmar you could only imagine what do you mean they have their own they have their own and you know very insightful stuff about so you could just imagine teaching who obviously are well learned what what life was like in that. So, but he had active shar the entire time he was there and very involved um with Telsey Shiva. They had an incredible mutual respect and um honestly a stickle utopian. I'm not going to I'm not going to you know, >> you think something that hasn't been recreated, you know. >> I think now I think there was a pause. Let's put it mildly. There was a pause. Um and and thankfully it's I believe now or the last several years recreated to have an incredible mutual respect and really benefiting from each other and um he loved the B. >> You also write about uh you write about um Gifter and the Reb right? >> Yes. Yes. There's actually a chapter called Rev Lipa and Rev Gifter. A lot of correspondence and was the facilitator. There is tak a letter which I I didn't put in because it was ext extremely unrelated but it's interesting you could find it quickly in Igoras on on the website. There is a letter where Gifter asked Reba a few questions. Um so there definitely was direct correspondence but in terms of other correspondence uh I I highly encourage you to read that tremendous chapter called Gifter and Liba about uh Misa being the facilitator between the two. Um absolutely fascinating. I think it'll give tremendous insight of what they were able to accomplish then and thankfully what I believe we're accomplishing today as well. a lot of a lot of uh incredible relationships that that that are happening these days. It's like I said, it was a bit of a downtime historically between then and now, but I I think we're back and stronger than ever. So, in Cleveland in Cleveland, um in addition to the Tel Yeshiva and the Scholes, Mida was involved in everything. Basically in modern terminology it would be it would be so you name it the mikvah uh kashus um everything from fbrangans and he would do an an annual kissly for bringing and make sure all the rabbon all the rabbon were there um and uh again the list is quite substantial but you'll see it in the book of every facet of Jewish life that he was involved with um there was a lot of correspondence you know about the rebba uh a tremendous amount of correspondence from the rebba about different different activities and different individuals to make sure to take care of everything from Shaolias to helping me in Macar of this individual or that individual and he established SAK um in Cleveland. His home address was the letterhead headquarters. So, so while in Cleveland, um he was incredibly busy. Mind you, he was ah professionally full-time. That's how he paid his bills. Um but he was involved in every facet of Jewish life um while in Cleveland. And the the chapter I think if I had to almost like give you bigger picture oh there's one more person before I give you a bigger picture was Rabbi Rabas who was there for 50 years a tremendous individual has many many and on Shas and the Rebes told my Za by the way me mentioned to Rab that that I have all of his and I really really enjoy them. I think even something like when is he coming out with the next one and Rab Perez and Misa he was the head of the of the of the measonim. So, so Cleveland just like any other you know major from city had had Rabonim and he was he was the head of America for you know for 40 50 years he would speak every year at the bring in and he would ask all his shy and why the alter did this and that and my would ask if he didn't have the answer to the question and then he would deliver it back to Paris and it's all in the book and um and so this is just an example of the kind of relationships and the kind of honestly incredibleness that was going on in Cleveland at the between Labavich and the broader and the broader Jewish community. >> Okay. It's beautiful and it really gives you a window into I mean the was encouraging your grandfather to do all of these activities. Absolutely. Gives you a and it gives you a window of like you know he wanted to be in Crown Heights. They said no go there and you guess this is before is institutionalized but the you know lambd etc. I guess being there um how much influence you can have on the community. It's amazing. Um okay, so I want to ask you I think we'll end off with this is I want to hear about the the work that you've done on your father. But before that is there anything any other areas of the book you want to just highlight before we before I get to that? >> Yeah. So the first uh 440 pages of the book, you know, start with the the 1800s hardships of Russia and go all the way until uh you know, like I said, the great escape and Tashkant and uh and Pucking and um so I think the overarching idea of all of that was the incredible Mirus Nefish and the hardship that they went through during that time period and ultimately having the the heart and the the gumption. I I I you know the speechlessness is there when you see what they went through to reestablish reestablish themselves in the United States and not and not budge an inch coming to America continuing with the same fire the same ben and making sure that they that they have a tremendous family um and like I said it's it's really the story of Labavage history over the last hundred years and quite frankly on a broader perspective it's Jewish history this is what Yidden had to endure over the centuries essentially since Montra and I think the biggest insightful takeaway from that whole piece was what they set up for us. I think it's a little bit hard to look around and they set that up for us. The refugees paved the foundation for every beneficial thing we have today. I don't discredit the massive yeshivas and the beautiful schos and the crazy phenomenal mcfus etc. Just I think that the reader will walk away and realize that this entire foundation was all paved by the refugees that first came here because unfortunately you see these stories they make a tiny left turn. It's all gone. All of it. One tiny left turn. Okay, we're in America. Okay, we're in America and uh these these things perhaps are not so important. you know, maybe uh so it's almost like uh the best example I could give is imagine you um I don't know, you're trying to you have a you have a gun and you need to hit something on a mountain. You had to hit a soda can on a mountain five, you know, a thousand miles away. All it takes is a tiny millimeter off and forget about it. That is the equivalency. You come to the United States and if you're not a bazillion% on target, then whole next generation shifts in a drastically different direction. And that is my one of my incredible >> that's what happened the previous generations of people came to America. Yeah. >> Correct. So the fact that coming to America and being steadfast in their mission drastically changed everything for them and their future generations. >> Beautiful. Okay. So like I said I want to ask you about your father and you already mentioned right in the beginning um the emotional component to writing about your father. And you know when I was growing up um I was in Alterra and there was a big picture of your father as the uh previous uh Scan Manal of Alterra but I didn't know much about him until I read it in the book and uh maybe you could talk a little bit about him and give us a little taste. >> So my father definitely picked up on his father and uh and his grandparents and definitely continued uh their legacy. My father was born in Paris in 1949, came to the United States as a young child, grew up in Cleveland, went to Colliver and then went to Kber Academy and then went to Bedford and Dean and then went to Newark in 770 and got married in 1972. So you already know all about his all about his background. I over the years like I told at the beginning, you know, bumped into a lot of people that would give me mild mild mild, you know, nuggets here and there. And this honestly this foray into this publication um I guess you could say took what I already knew but definitely bolstered it and enabled me to to to really really bring him to life and the the the his activities in is is one one unique facet but even more so it didn't stop in the classroom. He was incredibly involved in all the families um and all the families as well and was always able to see bigger picture. It wasn't like there's a conversation with a child and it kind of ends as soon as the classroom door closes shalom uh was sent by the fida to establish day schools around the United States but ultimately he settled in the Bronx which of course at the time was a was a tremendous Jewish community. So when my father got married in 1972 Rab recruited him to uh teach in his to teach in his uh in his school called the Babashiva of the Bronx. at the time the Babashiva of the Bronx Ait Mim was was a boy school and then he ended up opening a girl school as well called Bana. So my father was the principal of Bhana when that opened and then was also a rebi in uh in aim in in the boys division. Um he did that for several years until ultimately the Bronx community drastically changed and therefore the school unfortunately had to had to close down. The point is the bigger picture is that my my father's brakite and really not not in like a flashy manner was able to see like the larger picture of every child and the family that they're coming from and the kind of engagement in the family. So when the school day was over he would meet in parents' homes not just about their children's education of course but more so about the fbrang and to give sharim and to answer questions and he was extremely involved in their family life. Um, so as a even though he was uh teaching their children, but he expanded far beyond that and um one tremendous family that we're extremely fortunate to be mammish-like family with till today is Dr. Felman and their family who my father met in the Bronx. He taught their children. He taught their children and became the family Mashia. And there's tremendous amount of information in the book um from my interviews with the Feldman children about all of that. I don't want to give all of it away, but I think my my point is that I'm giving you this bigger picture that he didn't just sort of, you know, teach their children. Um, he was extremely involved in the families as well. Um, even when Labavash of the Bronx was u, let's just say, you know, needing to unfortunately close down. Um plus uh it was time where the Felman family was moving to Crown Heights. My father u made sure that they caught up and were well acclimated to come to a proper Lavage there coming from a day school. So being really really involved um in their lives and and many famil family's lives. Uh one of the Feldman children told me probably one of the best stories in the entire book. So my father was extremely close with the Feldman's but didn't just cave to put it in simple words okay now how you're from go to 770 get pushed around and uh enjoy Klein had told I think it was um pardon me it slips my mind who he mentioned it to but Klein said bashameba that he wishes there was more people like my father who was so close with the Bouva family enabling them to acclimate and actually be a part of the community. They should never they shouldn't feel like uh you know second class outsiders and it wasn't like my father you know told the rebba every I'm sure he wrote a duk of course but in saying that was tremendous for me that rabbi Dr. David Feldman shared with me that Rab Miam Klein told him about that. So just the the bigger picture of my father's worldview and method of operation was meant that we're all we're all we're all yidden and and he really felt and and and lived that his entire life. And then later on when it was time for the Felman children to get married and again you know we're not talking about you know 2026 we're talking about the 80s life was a little bit different. we're, you know, a Baltua family. It wasn't very very common um for someone who comes from a Baltua family to marry someone who is a long-standing Lavish. And uh my father, let's just say advocated and made it happen and um ultimately ultimately when the engagement happened because Dr. Felman's family and specifically in this case uh his daughter Sorrow was close with the Rebbitson. So Sarah when she told the rabbitson that she's engaged to leish and the rabbits was very very happy and gave brahas and said many beautiful things but the point is that was right after they were engaged. So I guess I guess that was the breakthrough where they got engaged and now they have the rabbits in Saskoma and uh but the point is that that that's how my father operated and the same thing he always had shabas guest from not to say other people didn't I'm just here to talk talk about my father uh I'm sure many people in Crown Heights did and he kept those close friendships for many year I interviewed some people from Ado who my father was given at their wedding and that's how close he was with them because um he would always have them for Shabbasim and And um and another family interview mentioned that at his wedding um even though he studied data terra but imamish wasn't like coming from a not from background more like like very very modern. So the person was extremely familiar with Yiddish but incredibly lost at this uh at this Labavich wedding and my father basically glued himself to him and made him feel comfortable the entire evening making sure that he didn't feel lost at his own child's wedding and you know getting lost in the crowd. So in the Bronx, my father, like I said, was involved tremendously with the children and their families and really did not have took the Reb's perspective and took his family's perspective that that uh that Barasham were blessed to be one large family. Eventually, like I said, the Bronx closed down uh because the neighborhood changed. Rabbi Yankl, Rabbi JJ He quickly caught my father because it was exactly the same time when the Persians were escaping from Iran. the children, the famous story, he set up a yeshiva which lasted about a year up until the children were able to reestablish themselves with family. So he grabbed him for that one year to teach cuz he was available now that the Bronx closed. And then and I have a small a very very small but I interviewed some uh some people on that um era as well even though communication was tough but my father really really cared and did everything he could to see to it that the children were comfortable and um he even brought a few children into Yhiddis for their bar mitzvah. So in 1981 was not extremely popular but the rabbi took from the Persian children and he brought in about four or five boys for their bar mitzvah and thanks to Rabbi Harle in upland who has just tremendous foresight he he's my father walking up the steps in 770 with a bunch of boys and said where are you going actually I'm going to what he throws a recorder in his pocket because I asked Rabbi Harle like how how did that come about he's like no your father was just passing by and I threw it in his pocket and it's recorded this from 1981 is recorded I transcribe it and I put it in the book. Of course, after the my father um elaborated to the children exactly what the Reba said, but they were so he treated them as if a father would taken their children for Rabbi Yang Shiva of course like I said quickly closed down. Ala quickly recruits him and uh this is a big shift because my father always taught in day school environments. He actually interviewed some of my cousins who were who were attending. mildly interview didn't didn't disclose why but sort of wanted to understand how terra operates and he took his let's call it day school perspective or Shapiro perspective whatever you want to call it took that same exact measure and came to Alterra and in Alterra heish was a phenomenal contributor he started off as a mamid I hear incredible stories and they're in the book about his talidum saying his outside the box perspective always positive making sure that the that the that the that the kite is is dripping in their bones with joy with joy you know different generations operated differently so it wasn't like um in a way of like you knowish and things of that nature it was very much about wow the privilege and the that we have to have and to have and to have a and he was very very operated very optimistically and there's an incredible amount of him in Alita and as well as the families and the things that he would do behind the scenes for the community because obviously as a Malamemed you get very very quick insight into the nature of hardships of people's families and being able to um being able to attend to those hardships. One tiny story there's too many so I'm going to give you one tiny story. There's a I heard this firsthand from the person it happened with. So the boy a boy comes off it's it's freezing in the winter. A boy comes off the bus walks into my father's at this point my father wasn't even the assistant principal. He was a he was a teacher. He sees the boys without a coat. He sees the boy without a coat. He grabs another boy like his friend. He pulls him aside, slips him some cash and says, "You need to go to Kazanabs right now, walk with him and go buy him a coat." And he wasn't even in his class. Uh the boy that told me was the boy that my father gave the cash to. It wasn't like there was some Alleta fund. I'm sure Alleta had its own financial hardships, you know, trying to educate hundreds and hundreds of boys and nobody's paying tuition. I mean, like I I don't think that they had a fund for clothing. and um the kitser that's only like one one like uh tiny component and then being very involved. So I have a chapter a chapter on that uh specifically about oliter and all his involvement in the children. And I have a separate chapter specifically about the community affairs um what he was involved with in in seeing to it that with Deritz another incredible thing that surfaced in my research was I think Rabbi Lustik Rabbi Lustik uh the principal of Altera for many many decades an incredible individual he was very very helpful I interviewed him he said your father smiled a lot but um on this day he smiled more than ever what happened was somebody in the community actually quite financially welloff was going through tremendous tremendous financial hardship and he needed serious funds to get back on his feet. The problem is he writes into the deba here's the problem. If I go to a gamach or um in 5 minutes it's going to get out that this very very successful person is doing very poorly and what happens is that if you're in business and people get wind that you're not doing well they just stop doing business with you because perhaps you're you're not stable enough to work with it's too risky and loanhara travels very very quickly. So he he felt he's cornered. What am I supposed to do? Obviously he it sounds like the bank wasn't an option and he couldn't go he felt he felt he couldn't go to a gamach and uh he felt he couldn't just you know approach you know certain giver he doesn't know what to do and the rebba said go to go go go to levit shapiro go to lvicha shapiro he will see to it that you'll procure the funds needed to reestablish yourself with deritz and with dignity and rabelistic was telling me I saw your father like he he was beaming and of course my father took the privilege hopped to it enabled this person to uh he was able to solicit funds nobody knew where the money was going to the person thank goodness successfully got back on his feet pay back the money and Barashem had a very successful career and got back on his feet that's a story the rebelistic share with me mind you this is a man in andba is saying >> is sending to him >> sewing to him because he knows that it will not only get done but get done with Deritz which is obviously the the highest level at stucka just just before giving someone a job so >> amazing and I remember one story that I saw is that um after the rabbit came out of mipes everyone knows that in school it's a big to-do you know I don't know how it works today but there donuts you know you come to the class >> and um and my my kids are in a different school they're still doing donuts I don't know what's happening in all >> but apparently Rabbi Khadakov called your father after the reb came out of sades told him that it's kadai to make a whole big deal out of it in the school. So your father based on that instituted the whole birthday party celebrations that happen in all the classrooms. >> Correct. He hopped to it and did it same day and it was the exact equivalency when mitzvah came out while he was in the Bronx. He immediately by hand wrote up a brochure. Obviously there was a lot of activity in Crown Heights and tremendous people that uh propelled Mitzvik. I'm just explaining what my father did in the Bronx. this immediately before Shabas created uh a quick uh handwritten brus in English and translation transliteration very let's call Kabad house friendly with the zman and melee made copies and every single girl and mother affiliated with the school uh immediately got that handwritten uh xerox copy of of what to do um mitzvk so my father um he did everything with extreme passion Honestly, I I I would lovingly say that I definitely carry that trait. Like anyone that sees the book realizes I put a tremendous tremendous amount of love and hard work into it. It's not a small contress. It's very big. It's a very expensive print. It is it is a thick hard cop you know it's it's not not just phys I'm explaining physically and also when you open it up the tremendous detail because I I don't I don't have this perspective of doing things you know halfbaked or small uh to my to my detriment or to my uh you know goodness but the point is that that uh it's it's it's incredibly uh thorough and well done no halfbake and my father definitely had that exact same perspective Um and when it came la Marshall to Mishn which is obviously we always do mishnet that's not novel to labavich but he took alter's pre-existing program and caval blew it up turned it into this massive thing encouraging the boys outside of class to to and brought the boys by their because it was a gift for for the niss there's a whole section in the book just on we're talking about already the mems so these are going to be people you recognize. I mean most of them are are Zetas at some of them are Zetas. That's how close it is. Not even everyone's a Zeta in there and Mishna um you know going everything from how he inspired the boys to make this a big you know strong part of their identity because he knows that they will be able to carry this you know through their entire lives. So my father's work in Altera um was very very passionheavy. uh even in the morning he facilitated shakas and this is another part of an interview in there as well where he would overay but he would kazer it over like he's living it it wouldn't would today's it was nothing like that it would be the with the background stories and and how it how it's applicable to us etc. So yeah, my father did not do anything um halfbaked and um and really believed in all the things that he did. He was very very passionate person. So when it came to community affairs or came to things with the children um that's how I guess you could say he became a popular figure, a known person and that's why I got was able with so many interviews to learn to learn so much about him. very sadly um toughen and toughen he was at that point just turned 41 years old he wasn't feeling well on shabas just wasn't feeling well nothing too astronomical shabas was over he goes to his kav his very close kavver Dr. Felman you know Dr. Felman uh Mahamehat Sadadic you know he would open up his office on ma shabas Dr. Felman is is incredible individual and mashab book should be written about him as well I'm pretty sure it's going to happen um he uh opened up his office mate to shabas so um my father was you know was there it's it's all and he again this is still normal he's he's actually waiting upstairs in the house because Dr. Filman's basement was his what is it was his medical clinic. So my father's on the first floor, you know, smooing with the children. Um they're already older at this time and like okay the office is open and families are coming in so come. So my father was the first one to be seen and unfortunately uh within a few minutes of sitting with Dr. Felman he had a heart attack and he passed away in the arms of his dear longtime friend. lot of details. A came bahulu I was at not long ago maybe three three years ago and somebody was telling me that there was a whole buzz this is on a way to shabas and there was a whole buzz and they realized that Rab Shapiro had passed away and they wanted to do the Tahara. I I don't think I couldn't believe it. I never heard of somebody demanding I want to do my my childhood Malamid's Tahara. These were boys there in 770 at the time. He saidish, you know, did it does not appear that they consider that an option, but just the idea of them vying to want to do this Tahara and uh yeah, it's very unfortunate to to put it mildly. He passed away very young at only 41 years old. And and in his very very short life, he definitely left a tremendous legacy. And there's a lot of things you could learn about him in the book, the way he treated people in the community, whether it was financial or whether they were baluv, whether their child was doing uh poorly in yeshiva, whether a child needed extra assistance. And it wasn't like today that we have a tremendous amount of social services. You know, he was able to tell when this boy, you know, this is before all of the diagnosis we have today. He needed some space. Okay, great. Here's a few dollars. Go to Kingston Avenue, pick up a bagel, you know, go get go get a soda. he was able to sniff out what was going to be um helpful to this child to enable him to make sure to smile in yeshiva and not to be you know not to have a bitter taste toward kites and and um the thearkite I guess you could say that he has from his parents and his grandparents and making sure that is in your and in your bones. You know, David Felman shared a very fantastic piece when they first moved to Crown Heights. He, you know, he disclosed to my father how cuffus is too much. Won't be a shocker to most people if I say this. You know how cuff is it's I can't breathe. I can't do it. So, I'm uh I don't think I'm going to go. And you know, it's very hard to admit to that. So, my father says, you know, it's hard for me, too. It's you know, a lot of bakim, a lot of pushing, you know, at this. So what I do is I find a spot maybe in the back where you're not being pushed around and I soak up the a like I I would never give away that opportunity not to go to a cuffus in 770. It's a golden opportunity. Every single person watching and listening to this right now would pay a million dollars to go right now to the debas office. And sometimes when you have something you think it's going to last forever. So, at the time, my father was telling him, "Just go in there, soak it up, find a good corner, and you'll thank me forever." Maybe he didn't say those exact words, but let's just say the person that relayed the story feels indebted in that regard. So, um, my father's legacy definitely carries on till today, particularly in in the area of of organized Mishnay Bae. You have it in every single camp, every single Ghana, every single Abavich worldwide. Like I said, it pre-existed, but he systematized it on a very high level. When the boys were honored, he would bring all the Rabonim in town. But the boys the the all the terror boys were the one on the deis on stage. And you'll see in the photographs, he put the boys on the stage. And then the next level on the ground level was Alder Abanim. The boys were the star of the show. Again, very very ahead of his time. He collected money. Like I said, all the terra just didn't have extra funds lying around. Where did all the prizes come from? There's hundreds and thousands of dollars of farm. Where did it come from? The Feldmans were tremendous contributors. It seems like they were actually one of the key contributors at least from my research when my father would send out reports to the parents like almost like a like a scorecard and I have one in there sort of like a nice letter about what's going on with the Mishnas BZ sort of because to encourage people. I think the official competition ran from Yudva to Yal Nissen. Um so during that time period and on top on the top it says um you know Mrs. Miriam Felman's father. So my point is that uh the filaments also had a tremendous to fund the sarim or fund a tremendous amount of the sarum and um these are the kind of things that he really wanted and successfully and his legacy definitely car I mean in in many respects his his stories and his hearts kite but this is definitely one that that runs on very deep in in every lab me where you find children >> amazing okay and you're definitely uh continuing the legacy and uh I encourage everybody to buy the book if you haven't done so yet and this has been a real treat and uh thank you so much for uh sharing everything. >> My absolute pleasure and tremendous tremendous continue to Yasi with their publication and the podcast. It's absolutely phenomenal and I hope people take me up on my offer. >> Okay. All right, that's take care.